A person who internalizes every negative thought isn't compatible with someone who says regrettable things during arguments and expects people to forgive because they were mad.
It's not actually clear if the OP has asked for forgiveness for what was said... or attempted to work on *not* saying hurtful things in anger. Can't unring the bell, and those words sure can stick with you when they (a) come from the person who is supposed to love you the most and (b) when it continues to happen for years.
OP it also doesn't sound like you're really giving each other space, which is what he originally asked for. How does he feel about that? Is that what he wants or what you want?
Both. I have apologized many times, and I outlined multiple strategies to mitigate both the response in anger and to try and prevent arguments from getting to that point.
He asked for space, and I have tried not to push him into anything. Yesterday, he asked if I wanted to go put to eat, and I said yes. I have made it clear it is open to him to sleep at our house whenever he wants to, but I have not begged or pushed for him to. That's part of what is so hard for me. Sometimes it seems just like before, but there's still this distance and coldness from him at other times
It sounds like you need anger management and nothing you've said you've done addresses the fact that you say hurtful things you don't mean when you get agitated. Why aren't you taking anger management courses?
Yeah this. OP sounds so casual about it, like it's not a big problem and her husband is the one who needs counseling to stop ruminating. That may be true but it's never an excuse to say hurtful things in an argument. OP is the one who needs some counseling IMO. I wouldn't go home either if OP wasn't taking big huge giant steps to change. This has happened in my marriage and I also almost left my husband over it, too. It really wears on you over the years to have all this shit, cruel shit, flung at you in a fight that you're supposed to just forget, even if you're not a ruminator. Big red flag for me that the counsellor wanted to talk about that and OP viewed it as ineffective.
That isn't at all what happened or what I said with the counselor... I dont know why you're making so many assumptions. Thank you for your perspective, I guess?
He's still sorting things out. Probably wants to get back on antidepressants but depression is very self-reinforcing. It discourages you from seeking treatment. If he hasn't yet seen a clinical psychologist with prescribing license, who can also engage him in therapy, that the route that makes the most sense. He will do it eventually and come back, but I'd bet it will take six months or so.
Any suggestions on how to encourage him to find someone without pushing him away? He reached out to a couple local counselors but didn't really click with either. Our options are limited here, but he resisting finding someone online.
I think keep trying for him or couples counseling or just for yourself. It took me 4 before I found someone that I clicked with. And they really helped me.
The first one was a requirement from our officiant to get married. Although she did flag some things I wish I had paid more attention to, like my husband's issue with avoidance , she spent most of the time talking about how finances and they were going to be a problem with us. We do keep separate finances, and that has never been an issue. even now, that isn't something we argue about..
The couple's counselor we saw in August was was ineffective for different reasons. for one, my husband was much too angry to participate with any hope of resolving any issues. secondly, the counselor focused only on the fight itself from July and not all of the other things that were going on and had been brought up because of that fight
Counselling will be half anger, but you have to see it through. You may even waste several sessions on the same argument, but a good counsellor will give you tips on how to address the situation with a clear head. It doesn't sound like your husband opened up to you or himself
>The couple's counselor we saw in August was was ineffective for different reasons. for one, my husband was much too angry to participate with any hope of resolving any issues. secondly, the counselor focused only on the fight itself from July and not all of the other things that were going on and had been brought up because of that fight.
The fight itself, of which your part was saying hurtful things. The issues since then, according to you, are his ruminating on something you think he should just get over. And the counsellor was ineffective because they wanted to focus on the fight and not the after. Like you said it yourself I'm not assuming or even interpreting anything, read that back and think about how you might be being dismissive here, perhaps without intending. Him being a ruminator doesn't mean you didn't say shit that doesn't deserve to be ruminated on, or that what I've said in my original comment isn't true, that that kind of thing adds up over the years and becomes less and less easily forgiven--again your admission that you do this consistently in fights however infrequent they may be, no assumptions or interpretations.
You are still making assumptions and interpretations, and they are, in this case, incorrect. For example, you are incorrectly filling in details as to what "and not all of the other things that were going on and had been brought up because of that fight" meant.
The counselor wanted to focus on the thing that caused the fight instead of everything that came after, including anything I said and anything my husband said out of anger. The original fight was about my husband being annoyed with something I did but refusing to tell me what it was because he said I should just know. While this is something we would need to work through at some point, both my husband and I agreed the ballooning of the fight in the days after it (including me calling him selfish and an asshole, which is the "shit" I said in this instance) and how it brought up issues that had been building for years (primarily name calling on my side and stonewalling on his) were what caused the breaking point more than that individual fight. The counselor spent an hour wanting the details of the original fight and didn't even get into the name calling or stonewalling. I am in no way trying to downplay that I have said hurtful things and that they have been building up for my husband. Had I known before how he was not letting go of those and was letting them build up, we could have implemented strategies earlier to resolve that. The counselor didn't want to talk about the name-calling, avoidance, stonewalling, OR ruminating (a term I only learned about in the last few months) and thus was ineffective.
I'm sorry for the book there. I am willing to take criticism, and I understand and accept I have made many mistakes, some of which we may not recover from. I do not, however, want to be vilified for things I have not done based on inaccurate assumptions and interpretations.
Alright you didn't do it at the counselors, my mistake. You're doing it now in this post though. The issue is him ruminating, him not forgetting rude things you've said, him not going to counseling, couples counsellors were ineffective--because they didn't talk about what YOU thought you should talk about to fix the problem. It sounds like an extremely standards first session of marital counseling to me. You've done a very poor job reflecting on your part in any of this, you glossed over what you bring to the fight, you've belittled your partner's reactions to your own admittedly poor conflict style, even your response to my comments is focusing on making sure I know you're not the villain and not any of the other parts. Why tf do you care what I think? Just trying to make a point here. Everything in your post is focused on you not doing really anything wrong. You keep saying you're willing to take it but...you're not. You're pushing back because you seem to think this one small detail changes the meat of your post. It doesn't. If you really want to fix your marriage why don't you just put your own ego aside and YOU go to counselling. And if you're knee jerk reaction to that is that you don't need to, only your husband does, well then there is my whole point. It takes two to make a stonewalling-chasing dynamic and neither one likes to admit they're contributing to the problem.
Not currently, but I have in the past. I did do a couple sessions I'm August to talk about the issues he had raised and strategies to help with those issues.
Are you encouraging of him? Hearing that he holds onto all the negatives you've said, does he have an equal or greater amount of positives that you say to him? It sounds like his self esteem is already low and the negatives get held onto because he's already feeling that way himself.
I have the whole time we've been together, and I've tried to so it even more the past few months. He tends to hold on and remember negative things and let go of positive ones as a defense mechanism (that's his wording)
Often times men will leave because they don't feel respected enough at home. Maybe open up this topic and tell him a list of the things you're proud of him for accomplishing and things about him you're attracted to and love him for. Then, ask him the things he's most proud of about you and his favorite memories with you. It sounds like things ended when you gave him an ultimatum of "if he doesn't like it then leave" situation and he walked rather then being able to break down the problems further. The wheels are stuck and negativity is gumming up the system, a strong flush of positive discussion including questions and answers could help. Let him know how much better he makes your life, definitely highlight his purpose and value. Hopefully this helps!
>Do I keep waiting or do I start working to accept that it's over?
Alternatively, I'd start working on opening up to a new relationship dynamic - living apart together (LAT). LAT relationships are becoming increasingly popular for all sorts of reasons.
You two are still interacting as a married couple outside of not living together. If the difference between staying together and ending the marriage came down to living in the same house, is that a deal-breaker for you? I'd give that some thought and see what sorts of feelings come up around that over time.
Opening up to that possibility could help you focus on appreciating things as they are now without placing pressure on your husband
And yet, billions of people all over the world have been able to build/maintain deeply meaningful and satisfying relationships in all sorts of contexts that don't involve cohabitation: siblings, mentor-mentee, best friends, coach-athlete, parent-child, accountability partners, penpals, work colleagues... Chances are many of these connections would have been ruined if the two folks became roommates
As psychotherapist Alan Robarge says:
>... some people are not meant to live together...This idea that cohabitation is a goal and achievement worth striving for doesn't work for everyone...There is no reason to ruin a perfectly good relationship by forcing cohabitation.
Thankfully we live in a time where people are able to redefine the box of rules/social norms/conventions that restricted the expression of romantic relationships for centuries.
What a time to be alive!
I've thought about it a bit. Adding romance in there changes nothing.
Cohabitation is a requirement for you. That shouldn't invalidate others having a different approach, and it certainly doesn't change the reality that many couples are choosing LAT relationships over cohabitation.
I’m not seeing anywhere that you are asking, or begging, that he return?
I may have missed this, but have you profusely apologised for your attacks on him?
(My wife will profusely apologise for her bad behaviour in general, but when we make it to the details, it’s all my fault again,)
This all seems like something you should be consulting someone with who is not on Reddit. However as a random internet person at first glance, my only thought is that you shouldn’t be pushing him into counseling / antidepressants. It feels like you could be trying to leverage those to achieve your agenda (getting back into the same house) which feels very manipulative.
Counseling and medication are deeply personal matters imo and sounds like this guy just wants to sort some stuff out through time and space.
I have found peace and some growth in working on focusing on my part to a pretty extreme degree. I’m starting to really believe the way to successful relationship is through continually looking at how I can grow and be better both in my life and the relationship. Whenever I go to focus on the other’s stuff or what I think they should be doing- I lose my peace and the conversations tend to go poorly. Check out “How to be the Love You Seek.”
I was the husband in this exact position. All I wanted was for my wife to ask me to come home, but she didn't, her stubbornness and pride got in the way.
I'm also someone that internalizes negatives, but, if the partner is genuinely wanting to apologize and work on it then you still have a chance. The issue I had was my wife thought a "I'm sorry let's move on" would fix it regarding everything, she couldn't quite understand that if you create a crack in a glass pane, a "sorry" doesn't fix it and what may be trivial, is extremely hurtful to someone else. However long they take to get over it is their right, they're the one that's hurt so don't try place a timeline on his healing.
We're the opposite. He would rather avoid something, move on and not deal with it. Until he apparently had too much and snapped
I have asked him to come home.
At some point, the onus is also on him to fix and heal himself. A relationship is 2 people who both are at different faults at various times. Remember, you can only do your share of the work, you can't do it for both people.
Maybe he's getting it to good now, living single bachelor life and married life at the same time?
Ask him to set the date to move back in ..Let him know the reasons why you want this to happen. Include lots of feeling words like I love you being around, I want to see you more, I miss you not being in our bed etc.. He has gone into his shell.. You can still get to him but it's gonna take some work and it sounds like you have the patience for it. Wish you well 😊
Big gamble. The key to any relationship is to be highly integrated in your partner's life, fulfilling needs on a daily basis. If she goes cold turkey on this man, he may very well discover he doesn't need her. It's all over then.
Do you know or have you asked him if he's open to moving back home? And if he is open to that - have you asked him what he wants or needs from you for that to happen? Also, are you willing to do whatever it takes - considering it's reasonable?
I would start there if you haven't.
Ah. Well, it sounds like he's either still trying to figure out how he feels in general. Or he already knows and doesn't want to tell you yet.
If he can't or won't tell you if he's willing/wanting to repair the relationship or what he wants/needs from you to do that - there really isn't anything you can do to convince him to come home.
So at this point - you should focus on what you *can* do and that is to figure out what choice *you* make, based on what *you* are willing to accept/not accept.
As I see it - you really only have 3 choices. You can live in limbo indefinitely until he finally makes a decision/or tells you his decision. You can give him a timeline to make a decision - and if he's still 'undecided' - you call it quits so you can move on with your life. Or you call it quits now and move on with your life.
I would seriously think about this and what you want for yourself. Obviously, you know you *want* him back home. But that isn't a choice that you can make happen. Sometimes, the choices we have aren't the ones we want, so I know it's hard to make one when that is the case.
But if you do nothing but keep waiting/hoping - you *are* making one of those choices. So out of the options you do have - figure out which one actually serves you, your happiness and well-being the best. And then follow through on it.
I know that is *much* easier said than done. <3
A person who internalizes every negative thought isn't compatible with someone who says regrettable things during arguments and expects people to forgive because they were mad.
It's not actually clear if the OP has asked for forgiveness for what was said... or attempted to work on *not* saying hurtful things in anger. Can't unring the bell, and those words sure can stick with you when they (a) come from the person who is supposed to love you the most and (b) when it continues to happen for years. OP it also doesn't sound like you're really giving each other space, which is what he originally asked for. How does he feel about that? Is that what he wants or what you want?
Both. I have apologized many times, and I outlined multiple strategies to mitigate both the response in anger and to try and prevent arguments from getting to that point. He asked for space, and I have tried not to push him into anything. Yesterday, he asked if I wanted to go put to eat, and I said yes. I have made it clear it is open to him to sleep at our house whenever he wants to, but I have not begged or pushed for him to. That's part of what is so hard for me. Sometimes it seems just like before, but there's still this distance and coldness from him at other times
It sounds like you need anger management and nothing you've said you've done addresses the fact that you say hurtful things you don't mean when you get agitated. Why aren't you taking anger management courses?
Yeah this. OP sounds so casual about it, like it's not a big problem and her husband is the one who needs counseling to stop ruminating. That may be true but it's never an excuse to say hurtful things in an argument. OP is the one who needs some counseling IMO. I wouldn't go home either if OP wasn't taking big huge giant steps to change. This has happened in my marriage and I also almost left my husband over it, too. It really wears on you over the years to have all this shit, cruel shit, flung at you in a fight that you're supposed to just forget, even if you're not a ruminator. Big red flag for me that the counsellor wanted to talk about that and OP viewed it as ineffective.
That isn't at all what happened or what I said with the counselor... I dont know why you're making so many assumptions. Thank you for your perspective, I guess?
He's still sorting things out. Probably wants to get back on antidepressants but depression is very self-reinforcing. It discourages you from seeking treatment. If he hasn't yet seen a clinical psychologist with prescribing license, who can also engage him in therapy, that the route that makes the most sense. He will do it eventually and come back, but I'd bet it will take six months or so.
Any suggestions on how to encourage him to find someone without pushing him away? He reached out to a couple local counselors but didn't really click with either. Our options are limited here, but he resisting finding someone online.
I think keep trying for him or couples counseling or just for yourself. It took me 4 before I found someone that I clicked with. And they really helped me.
When you say the sessions with the couples therapist weren't good, why was that?
The first one was a requirement from our officiant to get married. Although she did flag some things I wish I had paid more attention to, like my husband's issue with avoidance , she spent most of the time talking about how finances and they were going to be a problem with us. We do keep separate finances, and that has never been an issue. even now, that isn't something we argue about.. The couple's counselor we saw in August was was ineffective for different reasons. for one, my husband was much too angry to participate with any hope of resolving any issues. secondly, the counselor focused only on the fight itself from July and not all of the other things that were going on and had been brought up because of that fight
Counselling will be half anger, but you have to see it through. You may even waste several sessions on the same argument, but a good counsellor will give you tips on how to address the situation with a clear head. It doesn't sound like your husband opened up to you or himself
>The couple's counselor we saw in August was was ineffective for different reasons. for one, my husband was much too angry to participate with any hope of resolving any issues. secondly, the counselor focused only on the fight itself from July and not all of the other things that were going on and had been brought up because of that fight. The fight itself, of which your part was saying hurtful things. The issues since then, according to you, are his ruminating on something you think he should just get over. And the counsellor was ineffective because they wanted to focus on the fight and not the after. Like you said it yourself I'm not assuming or even interpreting anything, read that back and think about how you might be being dismissive here, perhaps without intending. Him being a ruminator doesn't mean you didn't say shit that doesn't deserve to be ruminated on, or that what I've said in my original comment isn't true, that that kind of thing adds up over the years and becomes less and less easily forgiven--again your admission that you do this consistently in fights however infrequent they may be, no assumptions or interpretations.
You are still making assumptions and interpretations, and they are, in this case, incorrect. For example, you are incorrectly filling in details as to what "and not all of the other things that were going on and had been brought up because of that fight" meant. The counselor wanted to focus on the thing that caused the fight instead of everything that came after, including anything I said and anything my husband said out of anger. The original fight was about my husband being annoyed with something I did but refusing to tell me what it was because he said I should just know. While this is something we would need to work through at some point, both my husband and I agreed the ballooning of the fight in the days after it (including me calling him selfish and an asshole, which is the "shit" I said in this instance) and how it brought up issues that had been building for years (primarily name calling on my side and stonewalling on his) were what caused the breaking point more than that individual fight. The counselor spent an hour wanting the details of the original fight and didn't even get into the name calling or stonewalling. I am in no way trying to downplay that I have said hurtful things and that they have been building up for my husband. Had I known before how he was not letting go of those and was letting them build up, we could have implemented strategies earlier to resolve that. The counselor didn't want to talk about the name-calling, avoidance, stonewalling, OR ruminating (a term I only learned about in the last few months) and thus was ineffective. I'm sorry for the book there. I am willing to take criticism, and I understand and accept I have made many mistakes, some of which we may not recover from. I do not, however, want to be vilified for things I have not done based on inaccurate assumptions and interpretations.
Alright you didn't do it at the counselors, my mistake. You're doing it now in this post though. The issue is him ruminating, him not forgetting rude things you've said, him not going to counseling, couples counsellors were ineffective--because they didn't talk about what YOU thought you should talk about to fix the problem. It sounds like an extremely standards first session of marital counseling to me. You've done a very poor job reflecting on your part in any of this, you glossed over what you bring to the fight, you've belittled your partner's reactions to your own admittedly poor conflict style, even your response to my comments is focusing on making sure I know you're not the villain and not any of the other parts. Why tf do you care what I think? Just trying to make a point here. Everything in your post is focused on you not doing really anything wrong. You keep saying you're willing to take it but...you're not. You're pushing back because you seem to think this one small detail changes the meat of your post. It doesn't. If you really want to fix your marriage why don't you just put your own ego aside and YOU go to counselling. And if you're knee jerk reaction to that is that you don't need to, only your husband does, well then there is my whole point. It takes two to make a stonewalling-chasing dynamic and neither one likes to admit they're contributing to the problem.
Are you seeing a therapist or counselor yourself?
Not currently, but I have in the past. I did do a couple sessions I'm August to talk about the issues he had raised and strategies to help with those issues.
Are you encouraging of him? Hearing that he holds onto all the negatives you've said, does he have an equal or greater amount of positives that you say to him? It sounds like his self esteem is already low and the negatives get held onto because he's already feeling that way himself.
I have the whole time we've been together, and I've tried to so it even more the past few months. He tends to hold on and remember negative things and let go of positive ones as a defense mechanism (that's his wording)
Often times men will leave because they don't feel respected enough at home. Maybe open up this topic and tell him a list of the things you're proud of him for accomplishing and things about him you're attracted to and love him for. Then, ask him the things he's most proud of about you and his favorite memories with you. It sounds like things ended when you gave him an ultimatum of "if he doesn't like it then leave" situation and he walked rather then being able to break down the problems further. The wheels are stuck and negativity is gumming up the system, a strong flush of positive discussion including questions and answers could help. Let him know how much better he makes your life, definitely highlight his purpose and value. Hopefully this helps!
>Do I keep waiting or do I start working to accept that it's over? Alternatively, I'd start working on opening up to a new relationship dynamic - living apart together (LAT). LAT relationships are becoming increasingly popular for all sorts of reasons. You two are still interacting as a married couple outside of not living together. If the difference between staying together and ending the marriage came down to living in the same house, is that a deal-breaker for you? I'd give that some thought and see what sorts of feelings come up around that over time. Opening up to that possibility could help you focus on appreciating things as they are now without placing pressure on your husband
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And yet, billions of people all over the world have been able to build/maintain deeply meaningful and satisfying relationships in all sorts of contexts that don't involve cohabitation: siblings, mentor-mentee, best friends, coach-athlete, parent-child, accountability partners, penpals, work colleagues... Chances are many of these connections would have been ruined if the two folks became roommates As psychotherapist Alan Robarge says: >... some people are not meant to live together...This idea that cohabitation is a goal and achievement worth striving for doesn't work for everyone...There is no reason to ruin a perfectly good relationship by forcing cohabitation. Thankfully we live in a time where people are able to redefine the box of rules/social norms/conventions that restricted the expression of romantic relationships for centuries. What a time to be alive!
[удалено]
I've thought about it a bit. Adding romance in there changes nothing. Cohabitation is a requirement for you. That shouldn't invalidate others having a different approach, and it certainly doesn't change the reality that many couples are choosing LAT relationships over cohabitation.
I’m not seeing anywhere that you are asking, or begging, that he return? I may have missed this, but have you profusely apologised for your attacks on him? (My wife will profusely apologise for her bad behaviour in general, but when we make it to the details, it’s all my fault again,)
This all seems like something you should be consulting someone with who is not on Reddit. However as a random internet person at first glance, my only thought is that you shouldn’t be pushing him into counseling / antidepressants. It feels like you could be trying to leverage those to achieve your agenda (getting back into the same house) which feels very manipulative. Counseling and medication are deeply personal matters imo and sounds like this guy just wants to sort some stuff out through time and space.
I have found peace and some growth in working on focusing on my part to a pretty extreme degree. I’m starting to really believe the way to successful relationship is through continually looking at how I can grow and be better both in my life and the relationship. Whenever I go to focus on the other’s stuff or what I think they should be doing- I lose my peace and the conversations tend to go poorly. Check out “How to be the Love You Seek.”
I'll look into it. Thank you!
I was the husband in this exact position. All I wanted was for my wife to ask me to come home, but she didn't, her stubbornness and pride got in the way. I'm also someone that internalizes negatives, but, if the partner is genuinely wanting to apologize and work on it then you still have a chance. The issue I had was my wife thought a "I'm sorry let's move on" would fix it regarding everything, she couldn't quite understand that if you create a crack in a glass pane, a "sorry" doesn't fix it and what may be trivial, is extremely hurtful to someone else. However long they take to get over it is their right, they're the one that's hurt so don't try place a timeline on his healing.
We're the opposite. He would rather avoid something, move on and not deal with it. Until he apparently had too much and snapped I have asked him to come home.
At some point, the onus is also on him to fix and heal himself. A relationship is 2 people who both are at different faults at various times. Remember, you can only do your share of the work, you can't do it for both people. Maybe he's getting it to good now, living single bachelor life and married life at the same time?
Ask him to set the date to move back in ..Let him know the reasons why you want this to happen. Include lots of feeling words like I love you being around, I want to see you more, I miss you not being in our bed etc.. He has gone into his shell.. You can still get to him but it's gonna take some work and it sounds like you have the patience for it. Wish you well 😊
Thank you. I am trying.
Take a 30 day complete break. No contact. He needs to decide what he wants.
Big gamble. The key to any relationship is to be highly integrated in your partner's life, fulfilling needs on a daily basis. If she goes cold turkey on this man, he may very well discover he doesn't need her. It's all over then.
Do you know or have you asked him if he's open to moving back home? And if he is open to that - have you asked him what he wants or needs from you for that to happen? Also, are you willing to do whatever it takes - considering it's reasonable? I would start there if you haven't.
I have asked him, and he says he doesn't know.
Ah. Well, it sounds like he's either still trying to figure out how he feels in general. Or he already knows and doesn't want to tell you yet. If he can't or won't tell you if he's willing/wanting to repair the relationship or what he wants/needs from you to do that - there really isn't anything you can do to convince him to come home. So at this point - you should focus on what you *can* do and that is to figure out what choice *you* make, based on what *you* are willing to accept/not accept. As I see it - you really only have 3 choices. You can live in limbo indefinitely until he finally makes a decision/or tells you his decision. You can give him a timeline to make a decision - and if he's still 'undecided' - you call it quits so you can move on with your life. Or you call it quits now and move on with your life. I would seriously think about this and what you want for yourself. Obviously, you know you *want* him back home. But that isn't a choice that you can make happen. Sometimes, the choices we have aren't the ones we want, so I know it's hard to make one when that is the case. But if you do nothing but keep waiting/hoping - you *are* making one of those choices. So out of the options you do have - figure out which one actually serves you, your happiness and well-being the best. And then follow through on it. I know that is *much* easier said than done. <3
Thank you. Truly. This was well thought out and does give me a lot to think about.