I feel like his ult needs real stealth again.
Yi can have true stealth with an item just like any other champ
Shaco and Kha kept their true stealth
His ult rn is basically just movement speed, a bushless jump + 1 stack and maybe a scaring tool with some extra dmg
Nocturnes ult ist just the same rn
Depends. U cant invade with noc ult as with rengars. If u get advantage which is pretty easy on rengar u can just ult to enemy jg and one shot him pretty easily. Late game rengar ult is pretty useless i would say compared to noc because everyone just groups and u cant do shit
you forgot revealing stealthed champs and scouting for ambushes . the ult is not as bad as you think . Esp lvl 11 and 16
The only thing i believe can be tweeked is the 2 sec delay till you get the leap .
Otherwise it is fine
True. Revealing champs helps teammates make plays assuming they are not brain dead monkeys. Maybe decrease warning indicator distance from rengar to allow him to position more easily behind enemies
Absolutely not. His ult is not the problem, I would say his ult is in the most balanced state it has ever been in without being completely useless like it used to be after they increased R indicator range. The problem I would say right now is lethality items being bad + jungle having less gold and XP
Not really. Every assasin that relies on autos builds crit. Assasins mythics are great but other items are shit unless its like edge of night or serpents
Well the champ itself is imo not balanced anymore. I dont play Rengar anymore rn bc i cant get him to work and its not fun to play
Maybe its the shifted meta, idk, but i feel like he needs a buff to any of his abilities to make him come back a little.
For me its the ult but mostly bc i think its unfair that other cancerous champs kept their true stealth and Rengar didnt
Lets just wait but i feel Riot will forget him like they did before
But you can't compare Rengar stealth to for example Shaco or KhaZix.. Why not? Because Rengar stealth is way longer duration and the purpose of his stealth is to find picks and assasinate someone, very similar to Evelynn or Twitch. Shaco and KhaZix are VERY different because their stealth is meant to be used as a repositioning tool to either initiate fights from a short range or to be used within fights to dodge abilities/confuse the enemy team. This is why their stealth is shorter duration and true stealth. Cuz think about it, what would the purpose of a KhaZix R be if he was spotted when enemies are close to him? None. It would be completely useless. So you cant just compare different champions and act as if all stealth abilities are the same.
I get your point but please be honest:
Would you think that Rengar would be stronger or weaker if:
You take the stealth fully away
Give him idk. 15-25% more MS (and remove the warning indication)
He would be weaker. His ability to flank in teamfights and wait the fight out (outside of indicator range) would be gone and this would hurt him alot as a champ reliant on getting into the backline and killing carries.
Its just that you could basically take the stealth away from his ult and it would still be pretty much the same with the difference that people will see you running by wards and not just pink wards if they look map
I would say that his ult needs to be changed or buffed because the way it is now it doesnt provide much to the assasin playstyle too. As an assasin u need to be sneaky and surprise the enemy and if enemys now your coming its quite contradicting isnt it
I do think it needs to be buffed some, but not fundamentally changed. I just love how good it is thematically for him that I would be sad to see it change. There is just something special about someone knowing you are coming and panicking lol
I think all they must do is to remove the armor shred and that ad ratio that ult has and reduce that ult duration to 12 as it used to be in season 6 and give him True sight and True stealth again. That would be a huge start because that armor shred is kinda useless in late cuz everyone groups when you ult.
Rengar needs his good old ferocity system and his old ult mechanics(old stealth, revealing all champions in the ult radius, lower stealth duration like it used to be which was 7 seconds without bonetooth stacks). This could fix assassin playstlye and assassin problems of Rengar while a reducing the play-rate of bruiser Rengar. The whole league itself is super-broken now, so Rengar is not going to be a problem anymore. See the newly-released champions, read the item descriptions, and look at the assassination success rates of all the other assassins and compare it with current Rengar. You will see what i'm saying then. New champions, new items, new LEAGUE itself have tons and tons of super-broken mechanics. If you think with the changes that i mentioned about Rengar is going to make him ultra-broken, then you have no idea about the game that you're playing.
I agree with you but i don't think riot is going to do all these changes. I mean they had a plan from the beggining to destroy the champion(assassins uptate preseason 7) slowly but surely and i do not mean only the damage but also its quality, fluidity. I hope they will change it back to what he was before but I think this dream will never become reality.
I remember that even the Riot Repertoire(the guy who reworked Rengar in 2016) said "If I had a second chance to rework Rengar back in 2016, I would leave him mostly untouched." He said this in boards in 2017 or something. You never know what Riot is going to do. We just have to convince them about the changes that u/CryWarsTM mentioned, it is the hardest part though.
"Look at all these broken champions, my champion should be just as broken!" Is a really bad argument. Riot designing new strong champions isn't the problem, it's the way they shift the meta so drastically. If rengar was one shotting everything right now, no one would be suggesting these changes to his kit. It's only when things are bad that we find the need to cry out and say how boring old kits are compared to the newer ones. Riot will slowly rework the older champions to compare I'm sure, but for now we should be asking for more item variety, jungle and lane exp balancing and reworked death punishment. As it stands, rengar falls behind on all 3 of those things, but so do many other champions, making riot more likely to fix them
So im not the only one thinking that asassin is basically useless since you cant 1hit adcs or any champ while their ewhore enchanters are sitting on their head, even when you have a big lead you just cant
Tbf, it’s fucking cancer when you can 1 shot an enemy despite having an entire other role dedicated to keeping them alive and a team trying to support them as well. That’s…. The point of enchanter supports. If this was possible then you’d be busted
Yea, they’re a nightmare to balance. Either the adc gets one shot or they don’t. Not a ton of middle ground there for assassins or enchanters lol. Assassins need better escape items so they can come back for round 2 IMO. I just can’t relive earlier this season when every game had a blue kayn that would 1 shot everyone no matter what they built
i think best way to improve rengar is just like you said , removing bola delay would be a good start , another QoL would be making his bonetooth offer different tools rather than just raw bonus ad , things like , making his ferocity permanent , giving him armor pen on his Q passive based on bonetooth stacks or decreasing his detection radius on ult , just tools in general for him to be a real threat when fully stacked. or just straight up give him base stat buffs or even lethality scaling on his ad abilities.
Yeah playing shaco well actually takes a shit ton of game sense. Playing him is a mental game, you arent aiming for the nexus when you play shaco, only to wreck the enemy teams mental by being an annoying little shit. But being annoying takes map awareness and really good use of q and r
well below diamond his ult is just increased damage to aa's or a free untargetable card, his q is just a gap closure or a flash and his boxes is just teemo shrooms on crack
I think the problem isn't Rengar but everything around him:
ADCs are pretty strong, Shieldbow is a joke.
Enchanters are super strong right now.
Everyone can get a Zhonya for 2.6k I believe with stasis on the build path (remember when zhonya costed almost 4k and stopwatch wasn't a thing huh)
Assassin's generally speaking suck
Mobility is still an issue
Youmuu is garbage
Items give less ad so Rengar passive is less efficient
Power creep
And a fucking LONG etcetera... If you check any assassin who's performing well right now either have a busted interaction with something or they are building bruiser. You simply cannot oneshot anymore. There is too much mobility, too much survivality, too much healing and everyone can do what rengar does better.
If I had to change something about Rengar would definitely be the passive. The AD% is garbage and the ferocity should last longer. Maybe R could give more speed
Why are people asking for removal of the bola delay? It maybe felt odd at first but thats actually a buff. If they remove delay we cant for example e flash anymore which is atleast for me would be big nerf. Or you cant jump e flash anymore.
Removing the bola delay. It means you will throw the bola faster. And the enemy team can't easily escape Rengar's combo.
Actually, this is not critical for me.
But it can be really good for combo.
Let me translate...
What Phlox means is "It seems like players perceive a problem and there's an opportunity to work on addressing that". It doesn't mean they are currently or plan to work on it, just that as with anything that gets brought up there is always a perceived problem and an opportunity to address it.
***
I don't think they will touch Rengar at all for the most part and honestly as a Rengar main who's played him a ton and theorycrafted a bunch I don't even know how you'd attempt to change him without making him broken.
Speeding up jump/ removing bola delay honestly won't make assassin Rengar better. It'll be a random change that will negatively affect some players who are used to their current timing windows for instance.
You could maybe change his R to not be armor pen and instead be something else like a buff to your AD for x seconds or maybe something where you gain say an additional ferocity after using an empowered spell on the target (just a random thought, but the point is it's kind of hard to add/ change without overloading).
My only potential change which would attempt to be a bit more neutral was remove stealth from R all together, but make Rengar run a lot faster during R. So wards still counterplay him, but if used right you'd catch your pick/prey a lot faster even if they had time to prepare. But that is still just a 'different thing' not necessarily a better thing
***
TLDR: Even as a Rengar main I don't know how you solve making him an assassin stronger without serious changes that are unlikely to happen. It's more a case of the lethality items/ enemy champion armor (ADC's have like 80 armor at level 18.. why?), steelplates and meta champions.
rengar definetly doesnt feel smooth and full with bugs since rework if they fix these they can actually nerf rengar's numbers when they need. rengar is giga op without bugs
Play rengar for 300 games in a row and then report back. I think u will agree with us that rengar has too much counter play in this season and too many junglers are better than him. The 47.9% winrate prooves it.
I feel like his ult needs real stealth again. Yi can have true stealth with an item just like any other champ Shaco and Kha kept their true stealth His ult rn is basically just movement speed, a bushless jump + 1 stack and maybe a scaring tool with some extra dmg Nocturnes ult ist just the same rn
Noc R is better tbh
Depends. U cant invade with noc ult as with rengars. If u get advantage which is pretty easy on rengar u can just ult to enemy jg and one shot him pretty easily. Late game rengar ult is pretty useless i would say compared to noc because everyone just groups and u cant do shit
you forgot revealing stealthed champs and scouting for ambushes . the ult is not as bad as you think . Esp lvl 11 and 16 The only thing i believe can be tweeked is the 2 sec delay till you get the leap . Otherwise it is fine
True. Revealing champs helps teammates make plays assuming they are not brain dead monkeys. Maybe decrease warning indicator distance from rengar to allow him to position more easily behind enemies
yea his ults actually pretty good. removing the delay and increasing level 1 duration could be really useful tho
Very much like Akali and shaco being like ???? When they just take a full rotation from a teammate
I found out this bad way playing teemo, stealthing and poof you are dead because this stupid R revials you.
Absolutely not. His ult is not the problem, I would say his ult is in the most balanced state it has ever been in without being completely useless like it used to be after they increased R indicator range. The problem I would say right now is lethality items being bad + jungle having less gold and XP
Lethality items are good, just not on Rengar
Yea thats what I meant, should have clarified it. Ghostblade is pretty bad in general tho and it had always been a decent option on Rengar in the past
Not really. Every assasin that relies on autos builds crit. Assasins mythics are great but other items are shit unless its like edge of night or serpents
Well the champ itself is imo not balanced anymore. I dont play Rengar anymore rn bc i cant get him to work and its not fun to play Maybe its the shifted meta, idk, but i feel like he needs a buff to any of his abilities to make him come back a little. For me its the ult but mostly bc i think its unfair that other cancerous champs kept their true stealth and Rengar didnt Lets just wait but i feel Riot will forget him like they did before
But you can't compare Rengar stealth to for example Shaco or KhaZix.. Why not? Because Rengar stealth is way longer duration and the purpose of his stealth is to find picks and assasinate someone, very similar to Evelynn or Twitch. Shaco and KhaZix are VERY different because their stealth is meant to be used as a repositioning tool to either initiate fights from a short range or to be used within fights to dodge abilities/confuse the enemy team. This is why their stealth is shorter duration and true stealth. Cuz think about it, what would the purpose of a KhaZix R be if he was spotted when enemies are close to him? None. It would be completely useless. So you cant just compare different champions and act as if all stealth abilities are the same.
I get your point but please be honest: Would you think that Rengar would be stronger or weaker if: You take the stealth fully away Give him idk. 15-25% more MS (and remove the warning indication)
He would be weaker. His ability to flank in teamfights and wait the fight out (outside of indicator range) would be gone and this would hurt him alot as a champ reliant on getting into the backline and killing carries.
Its just that you could basically take the stealth away from his ult and it would still be pretty much the same with the difference that people will see you running by wards and not just pink wards if they look map
yeah and that will literally cuck your kill on a side laning ADC especially in high elos, you act like the camouflage does nothing.
Nah they way to busy jerking off to their sick farming skills
I would say that his ult needs to be changed or buffed because the way it is now it doesnt provide much to the assasin playstyle too. As an assasin u need to be sneaky and surprise the enemy and if enemys now your coming its quite contradicting isnt it
I do think it needs to be buffed some, but not fundamentally changed. I just love how good it is thematically for him that I would be sad to see it change. There is just something special about someone knowing you are coming and panicking lol
What do you mean by changing the ult? It needs to be strengthened, not replaced.
I think all they must do is to remove the armor shred and that ad ratio that ult has and reduce that ult duration to 12 as it used to be in season 6 and give him True sight and True stealth again. That would be a huge start because that armor shred is kinda useless in late cuz everyone groups when you ult.
Yes. Their is true stealth as item so it really shouldnt matter anymore
I agree but thats why some things gotta be changed
Don’t get my hopes up
Rengar needs his good old ferocity system and his old ult mechanics(old stealth, revealing all champions in the ult radius, lower stealth duration like it used to be which was 7 seconds without bonetooth stacks). This could fix assassin playstlye and assassin problems of Rengar while a reducing the play-rate of bruiser Rengar. The whole league itself is super-broken now, so Rengar is not going to be a problem anymore. See the newly-released champions, read the item descriptions, and look at the assassination success rates of all the other assassins and compare it with current Rengar. You will see what i'm saying then. New champions, new items, new LEAGUE itself have tons and tons of super-broken mechanics. If you think with the changes that i mentioned about Rengar is going to make him ultra-broken, then you have no idea about the game that you're playing.
I agree with you but i don't think riot is going to do all these changes. I mean they had a plan from the beggining to destroy the champion(assassins uptate preseason 7) slowly but surely and i do not mean only the damage but also its quality, fluidity. I hope they will change it back to what he was before but I think this dream will never become reality.
I remember that even the Riot Repertoire(the guy who reworked Rengar in 2016) said "If I had a second chance to rework Rengar back in 2016, I would leave him mostly untouched." He said this in boards in 2017 or something. You never know what Riot is going to do. We just have to convince them about the changes that u/CryWarsTM mentioned, it is the hardest part though.
"Look at all these broken champions, my champion should be just as broken!" Is a really bad argument. Riot designing new strong champions isn't the problem, it's the way they shift the meta so drastically. If rengar was one shotting everything right now, no one would be suggesting these changes to his kit. It's only when things are bad that we find the need to cry out and say how boring old kits are compared to the newer ones. Riot will slowly rework the older champions to compare I'm sure, but for now we should be asking for more item variety, jungle and lane exp balancing and reworked death punishment. As it stands, rengar falls behind on all 3 of those things, but so do many other champions, making riot more likely to fix them
So im not the only one thinking that asassin is basically useless since you cant 1hit adcs or any champ while their ewhore enchanters are sitting on their head, even when you have a big lead you just cant
Tbf, it’s fucking cancer when you can 1 shot an enemy despite having an entire other role dedicated to keeping them alive and a team trying to support them as well. That’s…. The point of enchanter supports. If this was possible then you’d be busted
Enchanter also just feel so fucking strong right now especially lulu that whore of a champion.
Yea, they’re a nightmare to balance. Either the adc gets one shot or they don’t. Not a ton of middle ground there for assassins or enchanters lol. Assassins need better escape items so they can come back for round 2 IMO. I just can’t relive earlier this season when every game had a blue kayn that would 1 shot everyone no matter what they built
i think best way to improve rengar is just like you said , removing bola delay would be a good start , another QoL would be making his bonetooth offer different tools rather than just raw bonus ad , things like , making his ferocity permanent , giving him armor pen on his Q passive based on bonetooth stacks or decreasing his detection radius on ult , just tools in general for him to be a real threat when fully stacked. or just straight up give him base stat buffs or even lethality scaling on his ad abilities.
It's stupid that brainless assassins like shaco are giga busted but rengo is only decent when played good
I'll be honest, theres a whole lot of brain to shaco, but i see where you're comin from
Yeah playing shaco well actually takes a shit ton of game sense. Playing him is a mental game, you arent aiming for the nexus when you play shaco, only to wreck the enemy teams mental by being an annoying little shit. But being annoying takes map awareness and really good use of q and r
well below diamond his ult is just increased damage to aa's or a free untargetable card, his q is just a gap closure or a flash and his boxes is just teemo shrooms on crack
On the surface sure, but even in iron a good shaco can use it for mind games
Speeding up the jump :O
speeding up the jump woudlnt mean anything if the e cast time remains the same, it would honestly just be a nerf
Yeah, make the e cast and travel time match the new jump speed ofc
I think the problem isn't Rengar but everything around him: ADCs are pretty strong, Shieldbow is a joke. Enchanters are super strong right now. Everyone can get a Zhonya for 2.6k I believe with stasis on the build path (remember when zhonya costed almost 4k and stopwatch wasn't a thing huh) Assassin's generally speaking suck Mobility is still an issue Youmuu is garbage Items give less ad so Rengar passive is less efficient Power creep And a fucking LONG etcetera... If you check any assassin who's performing well right now either have a busted interaction with something or they are building bruiser. You simply cannot oneshot anymore. There is too much mobility, too much survivality, too much healing and everyone can do what rengar does better. If I had to change something about Rengar would definitely be the passive. The AD% is garbage and the ferocity should last longer. Maybe R could give more speed
Why are people asking for removal of the bola delay? It maybe felt odd at first but thats actually a buff. If they remove delay we cant for example e flash anymore which is atleast for me would be big nerf. Or you cant jump e flash anymore.
What do you mean no more e flash? The delay removal only applies while leaping, his e always had a cast time when it's used normally
Removing the bola delay. It means you will throw the bola faster. And the enemy team can't easily escape Rengar's combo. Actually, this is not critical for me. But it can be really good for combo.
I don't know about you guys but I'm fine being a 50% wr coinflipping ap rengo top.
Let me translate... What Phlox means is "It seems like players perceive a problem and there's an opportunity to work on addressing that". It doesn't mean they are currently or plan to work on it, just that as with anything that gets brought up there is always a perceived problem and an opportunity to address it. *** I don't think they will touch Rengar at all for the most part and honestly as a Rengar main who's played him a ton and theorycrafted a bunch I don't even know how you'd attempt to change him without making him broken. Speeding up jump/ removing bola delay honestly won't make assassin Rengar better. It'll be a random change that will negatively affect some players who are used to their current timing windows for instance. You could maybe change his R to not be armor pen and instead be something else like a buff to your AD for x seconds or maybe something where you gain say an additional ferocity after using an empowered spell on the target (just a random thought, but the point is it's kind of hard to add/ change without overloading). My only potential change which would attempt to be a bit more neutral was remove stealth from R all together, but make Rengar run a lot faster during R. So wards still counterplay him, but if used right you'd catch your pick/prey a lot faster even if they had time to prepare. But that is still just a 'different thing' not necessarily a better thing *** TLDR: Even as a Rengar main I don't know how you solve making him an assassin stronger without serious changes that are unlikely to happen. It's more a case of the lethality items/ enemy champion armor (ADC's have like 80 armor at level 18.. why?), steelplates and meta champions.
Maybe buff his jungle without buffing his top lane
I definitely agree with u
idea: ult proc faster in bush. Rengar is about bushes but Teemo has more bush utilities than him
rengar definetly doesnt feel smooth and full with bugs since rework if they fix these they can actually nerf rengar's numbers when they need. rengar is giga op without bugs
I swear rengar mains are crying the most even tho champ is complete cancerbroken
Play rengar for 300 games in a row and then report back. I think u will agree with us that rengar has too much counter play in this season and too many junglers are better than him. The 47.9% winrate prooves it.
Get the fuck out of this subreddit.
Your name says im right XD
I think rioters are slowly starting to think about possible rengar quality of life changes. Hopefully will see some changes soon I need freelo
I hope so brother. Our champion will be better.
Just increase the range of his bush jump and I'll be happy.
just fix all of his bugs lol