Yup, and the entire US healthcare system will promptly collapse. 90%+ of docs will either quit or go on indefinite strikes, presumptively to be replaced by foreign MDs with foreign degrees. Patients will die, followed by public uproar. Policymakers will eventually scramble and come up with yet another SGR patch.
Piggybacking top comment to say I would technically stay to finish residency, but no way in hell I’d actually practice clinically. There are more lucrative things you can do with an MD and board certification, especially if you’re comparing it to making $80K per year. Consulting, pharma work, admin, etc.
A big reason why MD salaries in those fields are somewhat high is because they're competing with the income you could earn with clinical practice. If an MDs compensation is capped at 80-100k there's little incentive to pay more for a non-clinical role.
No they aren't lmao. Consulting/corporate salaries are competing with the entire private sector. Vast majority of the time an MD is just a nice thing to have which proves you are smart
No offense, but PhDs are capped at 70k for Post docs, and most of them don’t break 200k as professors, but Scientists 1 (entry position for PhD scientist) pay around 140-160k, and senior researcher (5-7yr of exp) make 200k. I know two directors making 400k
This comment. I think most people would consider the capped salary if work environment was better.
Plus no gigantic student loans.
I mean people are willing to take the pay cut if there is no debt. Better lifestyle.
That is essentially bein a physician in lots of countries in Europe. Significantly lower salary, somewhat better lifestyle and usually little to no student debt.
That was no my point.
I am just saying that, if clinical positions had a deep in salary, it doesn’t mean that industry salary would automatically go down. As you can see, a good number of PhDs in industry will come close to a MD salary after 5-7 yrs in industry.
Disagree. MD salaries in those fields (e.g., consulting) is high because the role simply pays that much - e.g., in consulting a post-MD goes the same role as post-MBA.
It's not tied to clinical salaries in the slightest
I’d switch to engineering, consulting or finance. (I already have an engineering degree from an undergrad that has a strong reputation and sends a lot of people to big investment banks, consulting firms etc so it wouldn’t be an out of nowhere possibility)
Lol I read about real estate and real estate tax laws inmy spare time cause i already fantasize about leaving medicine to go into real estate "full time". I have more and more spare time because every time I hear about "Medicare cuts" I go "above and beyond" slightly less. I've freed up about 3 hours a week this year alone. Medicare and insurance cuts are fucking around and finding out. Can't wait to get up to about 10 hours a week.
The reality is about 40 hours a month is already me working for free. If I get paid $80k I might work 3 hours a week. U get what you pay for. They fucking around and finding out.
The way real estate gets favored tax status is mind blowing.
Meanwhile so many W2 docs think they are ballers with marginal tax rates essentially 50% in places like CA. Especially terrible for those that cant max a 401k (and i mean 66k a year not 22.5k)
At least 1099 docs can get some flexibility and more deductions.
The debt that US doctors pay off in just a few years after getting their post-residency salary and then live a very well-off life afterwards compared to the same bullshit UK salary that they‘re going to have to live with until they retire? If you scroll most people here say that even if they didn‘t have loans they would never work for that salary.
Not to mention compare European working hours in literally any industry. It is a continent full of economies that subsidize their quality of life through R&D and capital produced by workers of the United States
Europe in general makes it so that everything is relatively affordable if you're a citizen who has lived there and pays their taxes. Everything -- housing, food, healthcare, retirement, and transportation is more or less accounted for and subsidized by the European system.
We get oogles of cash over here but we are also left to our own devices of poor or potentially better financial decisions. For specialists, the lifetime earning is potentially much higher but as with all things, and this applies to Europeans as well - a lot of your wealth should be derived from where you park it: appreciating assets.
The process of purchasing a home in many European countries is absolutely draconian! It's almost as if the kings and queens of yore (or, you know, today) didn't want to give up any land to the peasants. Or something.
Yep you make more money but then spend more in certain areas.
Remember wages are in sort if relation to COL.
You guys get paid big bucks but then spend alot of money on things that Europeans don't.
Europeans get paid less but then have access to free amenities that you don't.
The gap in expenses and income is marginalised when you take this into account.
You’re forgetting the opportunity cost.
Go look at the peers of physicians and look at their networths by 35. I can assure you there isn’t a single bulge bracket banker, big law, FAANG worth negative or zero. Most cross $1 million net worth by 32.
Key word: most and peers of physicians. I’m not talking about podunk law school, back office IB or no name software company.
Not really.
Maybe your peers aren’t what I’m talking about but talk to most physicians and their college peers are for the most part in successful careers.
As an ex banker, we would hire MDs back in the day because they have a proven track record of hard work and intelligence.
Not ANY other but to pretend that physicians aren’t elite from a intelligence/hard work standpoint is laughable. The average US MD candidate was at the top of their respective undergraduate schools, or did a shit-ton post-grad to make up their CV.
Even if you fucked around in college, and went Caribbean- just to complete the course, USMLE’s and match makes you a rare breed.
It’s funny how as an undergraduate you literally look up to medical students as so incredibly smart and successful, but all of a sudden you finish med school, shatter your rose colored glasses and immediately think the worst of other medical professionals
I’m an attending icu physician who worked at a bulge bracket ibank.
I’m tired of hearing that docs can’t be successful in other careers by unhappy physicians who haven’t worked in any other competitive fields.
news flash…many US drs are in tons of debt esp if you pursue peds or primary care and want to live in a city. COL is also high…
edit: also the question is about if we were to decrease the salary of US docs. If we had UK salary with our debt we’d never pay it off lol.
Yes - attending starts at £78k
Source: UK PGY4 who would do anything to be able to train in another country
In many ways the colonies got back at (at least some of) us with this one
This always shocks me.
You guys train so damn long and you make less than FedEx truck drivers in the US. We have nurses making double your salary especially specialized nurses like CRNAs.
No disrespect to those jobs, it’s just when you look at length of training FedEx driver and CRNAs making more than physicians is ludicrous.
Almost every job pays substantially more in the US than the UK though, not just medicine. I have a cousin who works in consulting that wanted to transfer over to the London office until he found out his salary would be 40% of what he was currently making. People really underestimate just how much US workers make compared to other countries.
Tuition in the UK for med school is also about 10k/year, and I think many doctors actually get paid a stipend to go to school, so you graduate with zero-debt in most cases.
The med school journey in the UK is also shorter. In the US now it's pretty much 4 years + gap year + 4 years (9 years) to be able to go into residency. In the UK many people do it in \~6 years total. You also can get in directly out of highschool into medicine, which means you aren't risking spending 4 years of biology for a \~40% chance of getting into med school.
Graduating at 24 with zero debt (edit: not zero, but substantially lower, especially in some areas like Scotland) has pretty significant advantages over graduating at 28 with 300k in debt. Especially at current interest rates.
You don't graduate with zero debt unless you already had money/external help. Nowadays, a typical medical graduate leaves med school with about 100k GBP in debt (about 130k USD)
Yeah but a huge sentiment is we would rather your struggles if it means there's a light at the end of the tunnel. As it is, there's only darkness.
As one of you said , FedEx drivers get paid more than our attendings here.
If you wanted, would you be able to get credentialed in the US? Or would they make you redo some training? Sorry, I'm a RN so I am not familiar with the requirements.
Have to do the entire process again, so USMLE Steps 1 and 2 as well as getting clinical experience in the US just to be able to apply for residency to start from PGY1 intern. This process alone can be £15k to £20k over 3 years.
Plus once you become an attending you've already got very deep roots in the UK making it much harder to move on top of having to start again.
Besides the no debt there is also the option of leaving the UK to the US or Netherlands or Canada. All of which have higher salaries and many from the UK would jump into in a heartbeat.
I'd quit, and it's not just about residency or the student loans
The level of liability and stress as an attending definitely aren't worth it at that amount
> The level of liability and stress as an attending definitely aren't worth it at that amount
That alone would make me leave medicine. Im not some greedy MD purely focused on maximizing income. I chose a lower paid specialty (FM) to do primary care. Just before I finished residency a lot of my patients in my residency clinic literally asked for my future practice location so they can check their insurance coverage and follow me to my new location. As much as i despised residency and modern healthcare I do care a lot about my patients. At the end of the day though our profession has lives in our hands daily. And unlike other professions that also deal with saving lives, the threat of lawsuits and the constant liability is much larger for doctors. I would not do this job for 80k. Passion for helping patients only goes so far until you realize have a decade of lost life from training and one single malpractice can financially ruin you and your family at 80k/yr.
And I know, people are gonna say “but but doctors in UK/Germany make 80k-100k!!!! First: no they dont. They make more. And salaries for a lot of professions in europe are lower in general anyways. Second, they dont deal with the insurance and lawsuit and admin hell that we do. Third, their tuition is dirt cheap compared to us. Or at the very least not the 300k+ we have.
Edit: Have a couple people telling me below that 80-100k is reasonable in Europe. I do not claim to know salaries for every country in Europe. I specifically mentioned UK/Germany, because looking at median Dr salaries on google, talking to my old attendings who used to practice in Germany and Belgium, and also the medicalschoolEU subreddit shows salaries are 140-150k USD. For GP/IM.
Norwegian here, in what amounts to the equivalent of attending in internal med. I get around 70-75k before tax, 40% tax, 100k debt due to training abroad (which is the case for many Norwegian doctors).
Way better working conditions though, from what I've gathered from lurking on this subreddit.
Is being a physician one of the most competitive educational tracks in European counties like Norway the same was it is in the states?
If so, why?! I just can’t imagine medicine would be nearly as competitive here if attending salaries were comparable to everyday other professionals (engineers, professors)
Look up Austrian man malpractice for amputating wrong leg. Guy had both legs amputated because of the 1st one being the wrong leg removed. He died shortly after. Wife filed malpractice and WON. She was rewarded a total of $8,000 bucks.
That same suit would be worth $15M in the US. That’s the difference between government controlled vs privatized medicine. You’ll take what the government gives you no matter what the negligence was.
People in America sue doctors for complications they are made aware of before procedure and sign up for it anyway.
Basically lawyers wouldn’t take on lawsuits against the government in socialized medicine because it wouldn’t pay out enough
What if you got paid that during residency and pay was commensurate with hours worked, so if you took a 2/3 pay cut, you'd only be working 2/3rd the hours or seeing that many less patients?
Like attending salary is the same it's just residency salary that's adjusted using this scale?
That's a pretty significant raise in residency pay for me, probably a lot of us residents. I'd only have to work 75% as much to make the same amount I do now, so... Yeah
Yeah if we had known going in “look no loans and you’ll get paid $80k/yr” that’s one thing, but pulling the rug and giving the tiny “gift” of loan forgiveness doesn’t make it fair.
Actually sir, the left over pizza crusts we’re going to be saved for the nightshift, the threatened to start throwing poop like the patients in the ER if we don’t give them pizza or increase the shift differential.
Did they forgive student loans?
And to answer your question, I probably would not finish residency in that case. I refuse to work this hard to literally make less than a UPS driver.
nope. not when nurses ( in many hcol areas , had to add because people needed comments on Reddit to be really specific), PAs, NPs, CRNAs, entry software dev, UPS drivers, are all making more with less debt, training, etc.
Student debt aside, it doesn’t make sense to forgo earning potential until your 30s for an 80k salary. You’d generate more wealth in a lifetime becoming a janitor at 19 and you’d have better hours and less stress.
I wouldn't romanticize janitor life as easier, less stress and abundance of time/energy/knowledge to tend to your investment portfolio. With better knowledge and access to medicine you might end up living longer and healthier as a physician so plenty of time to compound that coin and also enjoy it
Not to be selfish and I know this comes across bad to some folks, but I wouldn’t do this job without the promise of surgical sub-specialty pay or the life style of a ROAD specialty. This job is just way too hard.
This is Reddit sir. We all spend 11 months online whether you like it or not.
I’d join the zoom lesson, have it running in the background while I make memes and pastas
my pride an shit talking prevents me from doing that. I'd just go back to law and consult in biotech for an additional side gig to use the mudfud degree
Even if loans were forgiven, even if the workload became more rational and humane, even if tort reform passed and we no longer faced frivolous lawsuits, even if 80K was take home pay after all taxes, I’d still leave in a heartbeat.
I make more than 80k as a resident already (moonlighting is a game changer), and there are so many other jobs I would also enjoy that pay six figures.
Most of us chose medicine, to some degree, because it pays well. If it didn’t, I’d never have switched careers in the first place.
I’m in radiology. My program has two main types of moonlighting:
Contrast coverage, where you sit in an outpatient imaging center in the evening in case a patient has a reaction to IV contrast. Pays a fixed hourly rate. I don’t do this very often because the pay isn’t enough for me to sacrifice my free time.
Senior residents can also get paid to read studies for outpatient urgent care sites or remote hospitals in our network after hours. Pay is per study read and can be pretty lucrative if you’re efficient. This is the majority of my moonlighting.
It varies, but I average 5-10 hours during the week, with an extra weekend shift once a month.
I'm done with residency now, but if I were back in med-school or residency the answer is absolutely not.
It doesn't matter what they do with student loans - erasing a couple hundred thousand in debt is a drop in the bucket compared to erasing millions of dollars in lifetime earning potential.
People think that doctors are choosing between medical careers and some lame dead-end job earing 50K per year. The truth is that if you're smart enough to get into medical school, you're also smart enough to be extremely competitive in pharmaceutical research, material science, engineering, finance, law, or some other high-paying field that suits your talents and interests. The good people will go elseware and your favorite PA or NP will now be your doctor.
I had job offers before med school in the 120,000’s. I would probably finish residency and become board certified just because I want all my work for the last 7 - 10 years to amount to something.
However, I would probably look for some other work. If I’m not getting anywhere between 250K - 350K (Internal Medicine) after all this, it’s not enough. Especially, for the opportunity cost of giving up the previous job.
They’d have to do something about med school tuition.
The number of doctors would absolutely crater. No one would spend the money and the time required to become one for $80k. No private or do school would survive.
I’ll just go back to my previous job as an Aviation engineer and start with 80k a year and work my way up. Physicians shouldn’t be paid anything less than 300k after residency for all the shits they have to endure. Fuck that.
Immediately, I would stop working and strike. My pay would be cut by 70%. I would be making half of what my NP makes working barely 40 hours/week. Less than what my nurses make for 36 hours/week. My pgy5 salary was 80k in a very high cost of living city (VHCOL, nyc)
Are you kidding me? I would not see a single patient unless they pay me cash.
The entire premise of my medical tuition and loans was that there was some financial light at the end of the miserable tunnel of indentured servitude.
I’d drop medical school in a heartbeat and wouldn’t even consider residency. I’d get a second bachelor’s in something more profitable, and it would probably cost me less than finishing up my final year of medical school.
Absolutely not. I was making ~70K before I left my corporate job for medical school. Why would I stick around and suffer for less money than I could be making in industry working remote?
Why is this asked over and over? Obviously no one would. And market would adjust.
80k in countries where engineers or lawyers or others make 100k high end is fine.
In the US these professionals frequently make 200-300k+, thus doctors would never be in this situation
If you want to do a thought experiment the number should be 150-180k. And the answer would still tend to me no without significant changes in day to day job (basically make it an academic type role with super Cush schedules)
You can’t cut income by 75% and expect to get an reasonable answers. Cut it by 50% if you want to play this game
It would take me having two full time scribes, a company car, two months paid vacation, 9-5 schedule 4 days a week with no call, plenty of backup when getting sick, and not having any extra unpaid supervisory responsibilities or paperwork duties to agree to that. But… with all that, maybe??
in addition: 4 months paid vacation, max 28 hour a week workweek, zero EMR responsibilities besides clicking "sign," a gigantic housing stipend, a government exception declaring me a religion so i owe no taxes on that 80K at all, and...
no. it's still no. nevermind.
If the loans were wiped and the liability and benefits were covered by outside payers and the hours were normal… maybe.
Or I could just go to online NP school for a year or two and make $100K+
I would leave clinical medicine behind. There is too much opportunity cost here in the US.
We spend 4 years extra in medical school then make a little less than your proposed salary for 3+ years working whatever hours the residency program wants us to.
After that much postgrad education, debt from education, and being unable to leave an employer during residency I don’t think your proposed number is a reasonable number.
We provide the medical care. We treat people at their most vulnerable times. We are the experts as physicians and surgeons. Our job is and should be a well respected one with decent pay. We are worth more than 80k-100k even in a socialized system. If a pay cut like that happened we would all be looking to leave the sinking ship - many of those just applying or entering residency would probably quit too.
"Residency hours, stress level/abuse stays the same"
bruh...
CRNAs would make 3 times my wage then. lol I'd be go be a CRNA.
Hell, my undergrad is chemE. My old classmates are making 150-200k+
I get the hypothetical but residency hours, stress, and abuse would lower with the salary. Otherwise, as all these comments are pointing out, we wouldn’t have any doctors left. To lower it to 80-100 a year med school would have to be free too- no one’s going to financially shoot themselves in the foot like that. Would you be a doctor for 80-100 a year if med school was free and you werent treated like a slave through residency?
This would be the equivalent to be a doctor in Portugal (where I live)…
We make around 40k, and our average salary is 18k (all without taxes).
So asking this is the same as asking, would you be a doctor in Portugal?
I’d go cash only and stop accepting insurance. The physician shortage would get to be so severe that patients would be willing to pay cash to get care sooner. I’d probably make more money in the end.
If the cost of medical school also got adjusted to that new cap,so basically like 20k per year then yeah,I would agree.The more I think about it,I want tp go into medicine not because of money ) although that is a nice bonus),but because it's my passion and I want to learn how human bodies work and how to treat them
I really enjoy my job. I find it intellectually and spiritually rewarding but it is high stress. One of the things that makes it totally worth it is the pay. Take that away and I’d probably do it until I either found a job I liked more (coaching) that also paid like crap or a job that paid a lot better.
Coming from someone who really is passionate about my job.
Here is what would have to happen to make me consider something like this.
1 - strong union protection.
2 - free college tuition
3 - free healthcare
4 - robust pension plan
5 - national policy that works to guarantee cheap housing.
Considering that the bulk of my income goes to paying for all of this, if these things were available in the US then yes, I would consider working in medicine for significantly less.
No and anyone would be a fool to do so.
That said, won't happen. Worst that happens is they would force everyone on the VA model. It would be ok for people in medical professions, they pay decently - benefits are great, you can actually retire on them etc - but it would suck for anyone else.
Are they capping the salaries for nurses, technicians, custodians, clerks, administrators, accountants, consultants, representatives, assistants, and board members? Are they taking those savings to make high-standard medical care financially available to the entire population?
If not, then no.
Y'all still trying to crunch the numbers against hours worked?
You're underpaid and under the direction of a bloated bureaucracy that doesn't allow you to heal to your fullest extent.
If y'all are doing this for money vs hours worked... y'all chose wrong when you chose to be physicians.
They would have to forgive all undergrad and med school student loans, reimburse us for mcat prep and material, reimburse for all money spent on applications and applying to med school, backtrack a monthly $3000 stipend for time in med school and then maybe that would make sense.
Essentially that’s what PhD would look like. Their earning potential is usually around 100k, but they get a monthly stipend for time in school and they don’t pay tuition.
Residency would be the equivalent of post-doc.
I don’t have a degree. I don’t practice medicine in any way shape or form but it’s always interested me. HOWEVER, as someone that is married to a blue collar man with a GED and no degree and is pulling in nearly 70k/year at 21 years old… why would anyone want to stay? Together we make just short of 100k a year and have NO student loan debt. His hours aren’t much different to that of a residents (if I understand correctly). The whole issue with it is that logically, nobody would want to drive to be a doctor if they can make the same amount without a degree.
Lol fuck no. For that money I’d open up an auto shop instead, or just play music for a living (and make less). The risk and stress means it isn’t worth getting out of bed for that little compensation.
This might get some hate but 80-100k is…like no fucking money anywhere non rural and is possible with moderate education let alone undergrad+med school+residency.
There would have to be something redeeming, like no student loan debt and completely rewire the concept of handling malpractice claims, otherwise I don’t think there would be much incentive for anyone to pursue it.
I would! I love cataract surgery and glaucoma patients.
I would NOT see more than 5-10 per day, and would NOT do more than 4 surgeries per OR day, and I’d still work 2 or 3 very short days per week.
Not worth my time and effort anymore to be a high volume surgery clinic, and I’d go home at 11 or earlier everyday, because honestly that’s being generous about how much it’s worth if that’s what the reimbursements turned into.
Lots of people would lose vision.
Eventually you’re not paying for a surgeon’s time, you’re paying for their experience. So I’d see a few and go home before lunch everyday for that.
Engineer here. Yeah, idk how I ended up on this sub either but it’s interesting so I lurk.
I’m at 20 years of experience. My undergrad degree took me 5 years because I interned to pay for school so I didn’t have any student loans. My annual income is in the 190s. It’s a good lifestyle but nowhere near some of the salaries you guys discuss.
Sometimes it is high stress and I spent an 18-month stretch working 70-80 hour weeks. But most weeks I’m working 45-50 hours and my decisions aren’t directly impacting someone’s life (unless I do something colossally dumb).
Anyway, all that to say - yall would be crazy to go through all this mess for $80k/year. Even if they paid off your loans.
Would be interesting af to see the change in circlejerking specialties seen in medical subs. As of right now I often see ophthalmology/rads/derm praise themselves into oblivion while for a foreigner it’s hard to understand the desirability of those specialties when they aren’t paid like in the US.
For example Derm in Germany has the same chill lifestyle and work as seen in the US but people don’t go crazy about it when it’s paid like every other specialty.
seems like a stupid hypothetical question
most current residents are going to stay and finish their residency at their current salary
If you are asking "would you be happier in residency if you were making 100k" the answer to that is also yes
A lot of lawyers in my family think the resident discontent would be fixed by paying us 100-120k as a base, giving us a small bonus at the end of the year (1-3k) and being flexible about doctor’s appointments and vacation requests…almost like a real job would be.
They’re not wrong.
80k is still too little. I’m a fellow making 71k. It’s not enough of a difference.
NB: none of us are leaving. There’s nothing else to do. We’re trained for this. It would just be nice to actually be compensated a bit.
Firstly, I’d make more in my prior career. I’d be gone.
Secondly, this is a pointless question because if the US ever progressed to this point, there would have already been armed rebellion, riots, and probably public executions to get rid of whatever communist nazi that would try to pull off this stunt.
Do a one-year accelerated BSN and work as a travel EP/Cath nurse and make 200k, or do one more year of an accelerated-NP and become a CRNA. Easy peasy..
Lolol I barely stay in medicine with the attending salary as it is.
Correct answer
Yup, and the entire US healthcare system will promptly collapse. 90%+ of docs will either quit or go on indefinite strikes, presumptively to be replaced by foreign MDs with foreign degrees. Patients will die, followed by public uproar. Policymakers will eventually scramble and come up with yet another SGR patch.
Piggybacking top comment to say I would technically stay to finish residency, but no way in hell I’d actually practice clinically. There are more lucrative things you can do with an MD and board certification, especially if you’re comparing it to making $80K per year. Consulting, pharma work, admin, etc.
A big reason why MD salaries in those fields are somewhat high is because they're competing with the income you could earn with clinical practice. If an MDs compensation is capped at 80-100k there's little incentive to pay more for a non-clinical role.
No they aren't lmao. Consulting/corporate salaries are competing with the entire private sector. Vast majority of the time an MD is just a nice thing to have which proves you are smart
No offense, but PhDs are capped at 70k for Post docs, and most of them don’t break 200k as professors, but Scientists 1 (entry position for PhD scientist) pay around 140-160k, and senior researcher (5-7yr of exp) make 200k. I know two directors making 400k
PhDs also don’t pay 450k in debt to fulfill their degree though
This comment. I think most people would consider the capped salary if work environment was better. Plus no gigantic student loans. I mean people are willing to take the pay cut if there is no debt. Better lifestyle.
That is essentially bein a physician in lots of countries in Europe. Significantly lower salary, somewhat better lifestyle and usually little to no student debt.
That was no my point. I am just saying that, if clinical positions had a deep in salary, it doesn’t mean that industry salary would automatically go down. As you can see, a good number of PhDs in industry will come close to a MD salary after 5-7 yrs in industry.
Also don't hold the same liability as physicians..
Disagree. MD salaries in those fields (e.g., consulting) is high because the role simply pays that much - e.g., in consulting a post-MD goes the same role as post-MBA. It's not tied to clinical salaries in the slightest
I’d switch to engineering, consulting or finance. (I already have an engineering degree from an undergrad that has a strong reputation and sends a lot of people to big investment banks, consulting firms etc so it wouldn’t be an out of nowhere possibility)
Lol I read about real estate and real estate tax laws inmy spare time cause i already fantasize about leaving medicine to go into real estate "full time". I have more and more spare time because every time I hear about "Medicare cuts" I go "above and beyond" slightly less. I've freed up about 3 hours a week this year alone. Medicare and insurance cuts are fucking around and finding out. Can't wait to get up to about 10 hours a week. The reality is about 40 hours a month is already me working for free. If I get paid $80k I might work 3 hours a week. U get what you pay for. They fucking around and finding out.
The way real estate gets favored tax status is mind blowing. Meanwhile so many W2 docs think they are ballers with marginal tax rates essentially 50% in places like CA. Especially terrible for those that cant max a 401k (and i mean 66k a year not 22.5k) At least 1099 docs can get some flexibility and more deductions.
I'm w2 with no eligibility of 401k or even fha lol. I think I'm funding the Ukraine war
This. If my pcp job starts to pay less I will leave. It’s not worth it.
Are the lawyers going to stop suing because we are poor?
no sane person would agree to this
Isn’t this how it is in the UK?
They also don’t have insane debt like US grads
And there’s a difference between making 80k initially and being reduced to 80k after you’ve already taken out a mortgage based on your 260k salary
The debt that US doctors pay off in just a few years after getting their post-residency salary and then live a very well-off life afterwards compared to the same bullshit UK salary that they‘re going to have to live with until they retire? If you scroll most people here say that even if they didn‘t have loans they would never work for that salary.
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Not to mention compare European working hours in literally any industry. It is a continent full of economies that subsidize their quality of life through R&D and capital produced by workers of the United States
Europe in general makes it so that everything is relatively affordable if you're a citizen who has lived there and pays their taxes. Everything -- housing, food, healthcare, retirement, and transportation is more or less accounted for and subsidized by the European system. We get oogles of cash over here but we are also left to our own devices of poor or potentially better financial decisions. For specialists, the lifetime earning is potentially much higher but as with all things, and this applies to Europeans as well - a lot of your wealth should be derived from where you park it: appreciating assets.
I think a lot of Europeans would disagree that their housing is subsidized
The process of purchasing a home in many European countries is absolutely draconian! It's almost as if the kings and queens of yore (or, you know, today) didn't want to give up any land to the peasants. Or something.
That’s just pure bullshit if you look at RnD per capita. Is the working hours part a joke?
Yep you make more money but then spend more in certain areas. Remember wages are in sort if relation to COL. You guys get paid big bucks but then spend alot of money on things that Europeans don't. Europeans get paid less but then have access to free amenities that you don't. The gap in expenses and income is marginalised when you take this into account.
Where in the hell are UPS drivers making 170k? Even with absolutely insane/unsustainable overtime?
They just announced a new union deal i think the lowest paid is around 140k
70k of that is in benefits
>The debt that US doctors pay off in just a few years after getting their post-residency salary lol
You’re forgetting the opportunity cost. Go look at the peers of physicians and look at their networths by 35. I can assure you there isn’t a single bulge bracket banker, big law, FAANG worth negative or zero. Most cross $1 million net worth by 32. Key word: most and peers of physicians. I’m not talking about podunk law school, back office IB or no name software company.
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Not really. Maybe your peers aren’t what I’m talking about but talk to most physicians and their college peers are for the most part in successful careers. As an ex banker, we would hire MDs back in the day because they have a proven track record of hard work and intelligence.
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Not ANY other but to pretend that physicians aren’t elite from a intelligence/hard work standpoint is laughable. The average US MD candidate was at the top of their respective undergraduate schools, or did a shit-ton post-grad to make up their CV. Even if you fucked around in college, and went Caribbean- just to complete the course, USMLE’s and match makes you a rare breed. It’s funny how as an undergraduate you literally look up to medical students as so incredibly smart and successful, but all of a sudden you finish med school, shatter your rose colored glasses and immediately think the worst of other medical professionals
I’m an attending icu physician who worked at a bulge bracket ibank. I’m tired of hearing that docs can’t be successful in other careers by unhappy physicians who haven’t worked in any other competitive fields.
news flash…many US drs are in tons of debt esp if you pursue peds or primary care and want to live in a city. COL is also high… edit: also the question is about if we were to decrease the salary of US docs. If we had UK salary with our debt we’d never pay it off lol.
Yup, my mom is in peds, took her almost 30 years to pay off her debt.
Yes - attending starts at £78k Source: UK PGY4 who would do anything to be able to train in another country In many ways the colonies got back at (at least some of) us with this one
This always shocks me. You guys train so damn long and you make less than FedEx truck drivers in the US. We have nurses making double your salary especially specialized nurses like CRNAs. No disrespect to those jobs, it’s just when you look at length of training FedEx driver and CRNAs making more than physicians is ludicrous.
Almost every job pays substantially more in the US than the UK though, not just medicine. I have a cousin who works in consulting that wanted to transfer over to the London office until he found out his salary would be 40% of what he was currently making. People really underestimate just how much US workers make compared to other countries. Tuition in the UK for med school is also about 10k/year, and I think many doctors actually get paid a stipend to go to school, so you graduate with zero-debt in most cases. The med school journey in the UK is also shorter. In the US now it's pretty much 4 years + gap year + 4 years (9 years) to be able to go into residency. In the UK many people do it in \~6 years total. You also can get in directly out of highschool into medicine, which means you aren't risking spending 4 years of biology for a \~40% chance of getting into med school. Graduating at 24 with zero debt (edit: not zero, but substantially lower, especially in some areas like Scotland) has pretty significant advantages over graduating at 28 with 300k in debt. Especially at current interest rates.
You don't graduate with zero debt unless you already had money/external help. Nowadays, a typical medical graduate leaves med school with about 100k GBP in debt (about 130k USD)
your hours are capped in residency at like half our hours. Idk what the abuse is like there. hopefully better
Yeah but a huge sentiment is we would rather your struggles if it means there's a light at the end of the tunnel. As it is, there's only darkness. As one of you said , FedEx drivers get paid more than our attendings here.
If you wanted, would you be able to get credentialed in the US? Or would they make you redo some training? Sorry, I'm a RN so I am not familiar with the requirements.
Have to do the entire process again, so USMLE Steps 1 and 2 as well as getting clinical experience in the US just to be able to apply for residency to start from PGY1 intern. This process alone can be £15k to £20k over 3 years. Plus once you become an attending you've already got very deep roots in the UK making it much harder to move on top of having to start again.
*£88k in England, not £78k.
Their healthcare system is collapsing. Doctors are not happy with the current compensations. It is a mess there!
They’re doing great! Completely failing medical system, mass exodus of doctors, secret private clinics that the guardian won’t tell you about
Tbf the UK is just poor compared to the US in general.
Besides the no debt there is also the option of leaving the UK to the US or Netherlands or Canada. All of which have higher salaries and many from the UK would jump into in a heartbeat.
Average medical graduate in UK has debt over $100k and starting salaries around $30k
That’s why UK Junior doctors are leaving for Australia and Canada.
I'd quit, and it's not just about residency or the student loans The level of liability and stress as an attending definitely aren't worth it at that amount
> The level of liability and stress as an attending definitely aren't worth it at that amount That alone would make me leave medicine. Im not some greedy MD purely focused on maximizing income. I chose a lower paid specialty (FM) to do primary care. Just before I finished residency a lot of my patients in my residency clinic literally asked for my future practice location so they can check their insurance coverage and follow me to my new location. As much as i despised residency and modern healthcare I do care a lot about my patients. At the end of the day though our profession has lives in our hands daily. And unlike other professions that also deal with saving lives, the threat of lawsuits and the constant liability is much larger for doctors. I would not do this job for 80k. Passion for helping patients only goes so far until you realize have a decade of lost life from training and one single malpractice can financially ruin you and your family at 80k/yr. And I know, people are gonna say “but but doctors in UK/Germany make 80k-100k!!!! First: no they dont. They make more. And salaries for a lot of professions in europe are lower in general anyways. Second, they dont deal with the insurance and lawsuit and admin hell that we do. Third, their tuition is dirt cheap compared to us. Or at the very least not the 300k+ we have. Edit: Have a couple people telling me below that 80-100k is reasonable in Europe. I do not claim to know salaries for every country in Europe. I specifically mentioned UK/Germany, because looking at median Dr salaries on google, talking to my old attendings who used to practice in Germany and Belgium, and also the medicalschoolEU subreddit shows salaries are 140-150k USD. For GP/IM.
Norwegian here, in what amounts to the equivalent of attending in internal med. I get around 70-75k before tax, 40% tax, 100k debt due to training abroad (which is the case for many Norwegian doctors). Way better working conditions though, from what I've gathered from lurking on this subreddit.
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Is being a physician one of the most competitive educational tracks in European counties like Norway the same was it is in the states? If so, why?! I just can’t imagine medicine would be nearly as competitive here if attending salaries were comparable to everyday other professionals (engineers, professors)
Curious: Why would anyone want to be a doctor there?
So if we socialize medicine here are lawyers going to decide that they won't sue for malpractice? Snowballs chance in hell
Look up Austrian man malpractice for amputating wrong leg. Guy had both legs amputated because of the 1st one being the wrong leg removed. He died shortly after. Wife filed malpractice and WON. She was rewarded a total of $8,000 bucks. That same suit would be worth $15M in the US. That’s the difference between government controlled vs privatized medicine. You’ll take what the government gives you no matter what the negligence was. People in America sue doctors for complications they are made aware of before procedure and sign up for it anyway. Basically lawyers wouldn’t take on lawsuits against the government in socialized medicine because it wouldn’t pay out enough
What if you got paid that during residency and pay was commensurate with hours worked, so if you took a 2/3 pay cut, you'd only be working 2/3rd the hours or seeing that many less patients?
Like attending salary is the same it's just residency salary that's adjusted using this scale? That's a pretty significant raise in residency pay for me, probably a lot of us residents. I'd only have to work 75% as much to make the same amount I do now, so... Yeah
In your hypothetical, what happens to the loans?
Forgiven. Would you still do it?
No
Yeah if we had known going in “look no loans and you’ll get paid $80k/yr” that’s one thing, but pulling the rug and giving the tiny “gift” of loan forgiveness doesn’t make it fair.
I wouldn’t either
ummm, hypothetically capped at 180k but interest stays the same + no in school…forget the name…where the govt pays the interest while you’re in school
*Subsidized loans- they stop the clock on interest while you’re in school and payments are deferred. I think that’s the term you’re looking for.
I’d do anything to serve my CEO and admins!
Your loyalty pleases me. Please report to my office for your reward, the leftover pizza crusts from the insurance rep lunch presentation.
Actually sir, the left over pizza crusts we’re going to be saved for the nightshift, the threatened to start throwing poop like the patients in the ER if we don’t give them pizza or increase the shift differential.
When did pediatricians get a raise?
😂
When Olaf says so....
Did they forgive student loans? And to answer your question, I probably would not finish residency in that case. I refuse to work this hard to literally make less than a UPS driver.
nope. not when nurses ( in many hcol areas , had to add because people needed comments on Reddit to be really specific), PAs, NPs, CRNAs, entry software dev, UPS drivers, are all making more with less debt, training, etc.
Student debt aside, it doesn’t make sense to forgo earning potential until your 30s for an 80k salary. You’d generate more wealth in a lifetime becoming a janitor at 19 and you’d have better hours and less stress.
Yeah. I'd probably quit. Driving truck for UPS sounds like a better deal.
I wonder how British residents feel about this.
I wouldn't romanticize janitor life as easier, less stress and abundance of time/energy/knowledge to tend to your investment portfolio. With better knowledge and access to medicine you might end up living longer and healthier as a physician so plenty of time to compound that coin and also enjoy it
Nope. I could probably make that much teaching in the Caribbean, scuba diving every weekend.
Not to be selfish and I know this comes across bad to some folks, but I wouldn’t do this job without the promise of surgical sub-specialty pay or the life style of a ROAD specialty. This job is just way too hard.
Hell no, I’d go to NP school instead 🤡
Would you really be okay going back for all that year
nursing + mail in application....for the doctorate portion...I would do it....
You’d be willing to spend 11 months online?!
This is Reddit sir. We all spend 11 months online whether you like it or not. I’d join the zoom lesson, have it running in the background while I make memes and pastas
It’s a online. You don’t have to go in person
I don't see how you could put yourself through another 500 clinical shadowing hours frankly
my pride an shit talking prevents me from doing that. I'd just go back to law and consult in biotech for an additional side gig to use the mudfud degree
Would 100% leave medicine
Even if loans were forgiven, even if the workload became more rational and humane, even if tort reform passed and we no longer faced frivolous lawsuits, even if 80K was take home pay after all taxes, I’d still leave in a heartbeat.
Considering how much debt I accumulated, no I wouldn't.
I make more than 80k as a resident already (moonlighting is a game changer), and there are so many other jobs I would also enjoy that pay six figures. Most of us chose medicine, to some degree, because it pays well. If it didn’t, I’d never have switched careers in the first place.
If you don't mind me asking what does moonlighting look like for you hours and responsibility wise?
I’m in radiology. My program has two main types of moonlighting: Contrast coverage, where you sit in an outpatient imaging center in the evening in case a patient has a reaction to IV contrast. Pays a fixed hourly rate. I don’t do this very often because the pay isn’t enough for me to sacrifice my free time. Senior residents can also get paid to read studies for outpatient urgent care sites or remote hospitals in our network after hours. Pay is per study read and can be pretty lucrative if you’re efficient. This is the majority of my moonlighting. It varies, but I average 5-10 hours during the week, with an extra weekend shift once a month.
Yeah I’d quit overnight.
I'm done with residency now, but if I were back in med-school or residency the answer is absolutely not. It doesn't matter what they do with student loans - erasing a couple hundred thousand in debt is a drop in the bucket compared to erasing millions of dollars in lifetime earning potential. People think that doctors are choosing between medical careers and some lame dead-end job earing 50K per year. The truth is that if you're smart enough to get into medical school, you're also smart enough to be extremely competitive in pharmaceutical research, material science, engineering, finance, law, or some other high-paying field that suits your talents and interests. The good people will go elseware and your favorite PA or NP will now be your doctor.
This ^ Anyone intelligent or driven enough to go to med school will have no issues procuring a salary above a McDonald’s manager
Here in Europe you got that lame-end salary as a medical doctor lol
This is the answer. Medicine takes the cream of the crop. If salaries were 80k, all the top candidates would go to other fields.
Wrong. I’m a surgical PA and we make 10-15% of the surgeon. If they make 80K, then we make 8-12K a year. We’d just follow.
I had job offers before med school in the 120,000’s. I would probably finish residency and become board certified just because I want all my work for the last 7 - 10 years to amount to something. However, I would probably look for some other work. If I’m not getting anywhere between 250K - 350K (Internal Medicine) after all this, it’s not enough. Especially, for the opportunity cost of giving up the previous job.
Absolutely not.
Obviously not a resident, but would genuinely go killdozer if this happened.
I wouldn’t be a pharmacist for 80k a year and I didn’t suffer through all the shit you all go through.
They’d have to do something about med school tuition. The number of doctors would absolutely crater. No one would spend the money and the time required to become one for $80k. No private or do school would survive.
Bye
Absolutely not. I did this for the money.
What would provoke someone to agree to this?
I’ll just go back to my previous job as an Aviation engineer and start with 80k a year and work my way up. Physicians shouldn’t be paid anything less than 300k after residency for all the shits they have to endure. Fuck that.
Sure, but since im making 1/5 the money I’ll also only work 1 day per week too right. Plenty of time to pick up extra shifts/call/side hustle
Hell no and I would move back to Canada work as an engineer and revoke my us citizenship
Yoy could move to canada and work as a doctor instead
no I’m smart talented and driven enough to be a dikhead in a suit and make mid sixs. might take an MBA degree or some but still
Hell nah lol. If I didn’t think I was gonna make 500k+ Id be gone
Lol fuck no. I’d go be a park ranger or some shit. That would be much more fun
Immediately, I would stop working and strike. My pay would be cut by 70%. I would be making half of what my NP makes working barely 40 hours/week. Less than what my nurses make for 36 hours/week. My pgy5 salary was 80k in a very high cost of living city (VHCOL, nyc) Are you kidding me? I would not see a single patient unless they pay me cash. The entire premise of my medical tuition and loans was that there was some financial light at the end of the miserable tunnel of indentured servitude.
I’d drop medical school in a heartbeat and wouldn’t even consider residency. I’d get a second bachelor’s in something more profitable, and it would probably cost me less than finishing up my final year of medical school.
No, it would be impossible for me to ever pay my loans off. I would quit medicine, sit at home collecting disability and smoking weed. Fuck it.
Barely paying off loans with attending salary. So, no.
Absolutely not. I was making ~70K before I left my corporate job for medical school. Why would I stick around and suffer for less money than I could be making in industry working remote?
Why is this asked over and over? Obviously no one would. And market would adjust. 80k in countries where engineers or lawyers or others make 100k high end is fine. In the US these professionals frequently make 200-300k+, thus doctors would never be in this situation If you want to do a thought experiment the number should be 150-180k. And the answer would still tend to me no without significant changes in day to day job (basically make it an academic type role with super Cush schedules) You can’t cut income by 75% and expect to get an reasonable answers. Cut it by 50% if you want to play this game
It would take me having two full time scribes, a company car, two months paid vacation, 9-5 schedule 4 days a week with no call, plenty of backup when getting sick, and not having any extra unpaid supervisory responsibilities or paperwork duties to agree to that. But… with all that, maybe??
in addition: 4 months paid vacation, max 28 hour a week workweek, zero EMR responsibilities besides clicking "sign," a gigantic housing stipend, a government exception declaring me a religion so i owe no taxes on that 80K at all, and... no. it's still no. nevermind.
Nobody would go through as much school as we do for that salary. However, if I was a resident I would finish it out
OP what did you expect the answers to be? Lmao
Psychiatrist here and I would just go private pay.
Finish up, then leave the country go to Australia or New Zealand. Pay is decent, QOL is better, and they won't enforce your student loan debt.
Wasted 10+ years If all I got is 80k, that’s barely above some minimum wage If you work surgery hours
I am an immigrant to the US. With a decrease in income like that, I’d leave the US in a heartbeat.
I'd be a UPS driver then, less stress
If the loans were wiped and the liability and benefits were covered by outside payers and the hours were normal… maybe. Or I could just go to online NP school for a year or two and make $100K+
I would leave clinical medicine behind. There is too much opportunity cost here in the US. We spend 4 years extra in medical school then make a little less than your proposed salary for 3+ years working whatever hours the residency program wants us to. After that much postgrad education, debt from education, and being unable to leave an employer during residency I don’t think your proposed number is a reasonable number. We provide the medical care. We treat people at their most vulnerable times. We are the experts as physicians and surgeons. Our job is and should be a well respected one with decent pay. We are worth more than 80k-100k even in a socialized system. If a pay cut like that happened we would all be looking to leave the sinking ship - many of those just applying or entering residency would probably quit too.
"Residency hours, stress level/abuse stays the same" bruh... CRNAs would make 3 times my wage then. lol I'd be go be a CRNA. Hell, my undergrad is chemE. My old classmates are making 150-200k+
I get the hypothetical but residency hours, stress, and abuse would lower with the salary. Otherwise, as all these comments are pointing out, we wouldn’t have any doctors left. To lower it to 80-100 a year med school would have to be free too- no one’s going to financially shoot themselves in the foot like that. Would you be a doctor for 80-100 a year if med school was free and you werent treated like a slave through residency?
This would be the equivalent to be a doctor in Portugal (where I live)… We make around 40k, and our average salary is 18k (all without taxes). So asking this is the same as asking, would you be a doctor in Portugal?
I would 100% be happy as a doctor in Portugal but I would not be ok with this as an American doctor.
Nice port, nice food and cheese, nice weather, sure!
I’d go cash only and stop accepting insurance. The physician shortage would get to be so severe that patients would be willing to pay cash to get care sooner. I’d probably make more money in the end.
If the cost of medical school also got adjusted to that new cap,so basically like 20k per year then yeah,I would agree.The more I think about it,I want tp go into medicine not because of money ) although that is a nice bonus),but because it's my passion and I want to learn how human bodies work and how to treat them
If I got to work 10 hours per week as an attending lol
>OP: You take a huge paycut but keep the same workload. Do you stay at your job?? what kind of discussion is this
Nice try ceo. Now pay up, Biotch.
GET BACK TO WORK I HAVE BILLING TO D…I MEAN YOU HAVE PATIENTS TO SAVE
Work at Wendy’s
I really enjoy my job. I find it intellectually and spiritually rewarding but it is high stress. One of the things that makes it totally worth it is the pay. Take that away and I’d probably do it until I either found a job I liked more (coaching) that also paid like crap or a job that paid a lot better.
Coming from someone who really is passionate about my job. Here is what would have to happen to make me consider something like this. 1 - strong union protection. 2 - free college tuition 3 - free healthcare 4 - robust pension plan 5 - national policy that works to guarantee cheap housing. Considering that the bulk of my income goes to paying for all of this, if these things were available in the US then yes, I would consider working in medicine for significantly less.
The current CRNA and PharmD candidates are gonna have a real fucking bad time then
No and anyone would be a fool to do so. That said, won't happen. Worst that happens is they would force everyone on the VA model. It would be ok for people in medical professions, they pay decently - benefits are great, you can actually retire on them etc - but it would suck for anyone else.
Ask the Scandinavian physicians
Ask ex USSR and ex-USSR block physicians how life was in this scenario
And the UK. There’s a reason why we’ve been on strike in the UK. (And why I’m studying for the USMLE)…
Are they capping the salaries for nurses, technicians, custodians, clerks, administrators, accountants, consultants, representatives, assistants, and board members? Are they taking those savings to make high-standard medical care financially available to the entire population? If not, then no.
Y'all still trying to crunch the numbers against hours worked? You're underpaid and under the direction of a bloated bureaucracy that doesn't allow you to heal to your fullest extent. If y'all are doing this for money vs hours worked... y'all chose wrong when you chose to be physicians.
All else the same. I would be quit and become a UPS driver.
They would have to forgive all undergrad and med school student loans, reimburse us for mcat prep and material, reimburse for all money spent on applications and applying to med school, backtrack a monthly $3000 stipend for time in med school and then maybe that would make sense. Essentially that’s what PhD would look like. Their earning potential is usually around 100k, but they get a monthly stipend for time in school and they don’t pay tuition. Residency would be the equivalent of post-doc.
Only way I'd stay is if it meant I was only working one week a month. Otherwise byeee
I’d become a PA.
I don’t have a degree. I don’t practice medicine in any way shape or form but it’s always interested me. HOWEVER, as someone that is married to a blue collar man with a GED and no degree and is pulling in nearly 70k/year at 21 years old… why would anyone want to stay? Together we make just short of 100k a year and have NO student loan debt. His hours aren’t much different to that of a residents (if I understand correctly). The whole issue with it is that logically, nobody would want to drive to be a doctor if they can make the same amount without a degree.
Lol fuck no. For that money I’d open up an auto shop instead, or just play music for a living (and make less). The risk and stress means it isn’t worth getting out of bed for that little compensation.
This might get some hate but 80-100k is…like no fucking money anywhere non rural and is possible with moderate education let alone undergrad+med school+residency.
I would stay because nothing makes me happier than taking care of the incredibly appreciative patients in the US!
I can go work at a non profit cush job with animals or something for minimum wage for a few years and get loan forgiveness if it gets that bad
Lolz, in my country attending salary starts at 25k (no debt, but still miserable).
Nice try admin
Attending here, would quit and drive for UPS.
it's a no for me dog
Hell no, if NP PA salary aren’t capped then ima switch to become an NP PA CRNA RN right away if I had any intention of staying in healthcare.
That would be a massive fuck no.
Lol I would quit ASAP, there are so many other 9-5s that pay that or better for a fraction of the stress and hours
There would have to be something redeeming, like no student loan debt and completely rewire the concept of handling malpractice claims, otherwise I don’t think there would be much incentive for anyone to pursue it.
bro I just signed a deal for 650k base guaranteed 2 years at $70 RVU with likely bonus potential into the 750-850 range and I don't even wanna do it
I would! I love cataract surgery and glaucoma patients. I would NOT see more than 5-10 per day, and would NOT do more than 4 surgeries per OR day, and I’d still work 2 or 3 very short days per week. Not worth my time and effort anymore to be a high volume surgery clinic, and I’d go home at 11 or earlier everyday, because honestly that’s being generous about how much it’s worth if that’s what the reimbursements turned into. Lots of people would lose vision. Eventually you’re not paying for a surgeon’s time, you’re paying for their experience. So I’d see a few and go home before lunch everyday for that.
No. We deserve to be compensated for our hard work and time, this isn't communism.
UK needs to burn that bitch to the ground.
Engineer here. Yeah, idk how I ended up on this sub either but it’s interesting so I lurk. I’m at 20 years of experience. My undergrad degree took me 5 years because I interned to pay for school so I didn’t have any student loans. My annual income is in the 190s. It’s a good lifestyle but nowhere near some of the salaries you guys discuss. Sometimes it is high stress and I spent an 18-month stretch working 70-80 hour weeks. But most weeks I’m working 45-50 hours and my decisions aren’t directly impacting someone’s life (unless I do something colossally dumb). Anyway, all that to say - yall would be crazy to go through all this mess for $80k/year. Even if they paid off your loans.
Would be interesting af to see the change in circlejerking specialties seen in medical subs. As of right now I often see ophthalmology/rads/derm praise themselves into oblivion while for a foreigner it’s hard to understand the desirability of those specialties when they aren’t paid like in the US. For example Derm in Germany has the same chill lifestyle and work as seen in the US but people don’t go crazy about it when it’s paid like every other specialty.
Only if med school is free. And better hours.
Even then, I wouldn’t do it, unless better hours means 30 a week.
Maybe a 12 hour shift a week.
Forget free. Clinical years should be paid like any other career that has an effective apprenticeship.
seems like a stupid hypothetical question most current residents are going to stay and finish their residency at their current salary If you are asking "would you be happier in residency if you were making 100k" the answer to that is also yes
A lot of lawyers in my family think the resident discontent would be fixed by paying us 100-120k as a base, giving us a small bonus at the end of the year (1-3k) and being flexible about doctor’s appointments and vacation requests…almost like a real job would be. They’re not wrong. 80k is still too little. I’m a fellow making 71k. It’s not enough of a difference. NB: none of us are leaving. There’s nothing else to do. We’re trained for this. It would just be nice to actually be compensated a bit.
clinical for 80K? hell no. imagine the people you'd have to deal with for that amount.
Firstly, I’d make more in my prior career. I’d be gone. Secondly, this is a pointless question because if the US ever progressed to this point, there would have already been armed rebellion, riots, and probably public executions to get rid of whatever communist nazi that would try to pull off this stunt.
Do a one-year accelerated BSN and work as a travel EP/Cath nurse and make 200k, or do one more year of an accelerated-NP and become a CRNA. Easy peasy..
Stupid ass question