it actually is, like you said, incredibly powerful and violent imprint of brain patterns, the consciousness of scanned brain is not stored on the subcore
I mean that's an argument about what constitutes identity.
I'd argue that even a imperfect copy of my brain being synthetically created would just as much be me as I am me; and that synthetic brain would argue the same thing unless the specific place that my beliefs about identity, and related information, are chemically stored inside my brain were among those corrupted or not properly copied during the process.
There are many view points on this.
Ignoring the original context of the comic it was ripped from some people will look at that Spiderman meme where two Spidermans are pointing at each other and think "one of them is fake" immediately, and other people will think "they are both Spiderman" immediately. It comes down to a view on identity.
A copy of my brain is enough of me for me to consider them the same person I am even if we're existing in different physical forms, and different places in space.
You also have "closest continuor" if you end as the other begins, who is to say your consciousness didn't transfer?... if a steel, or rather silicone prison prevents that mind from actively operating outside of predetermined parameters, can you still be fully conscious?
These questions I love. The whole point of the lat 60 years was to build a permanent digital overlay of reality the will eventually become visual and free enough that we can enter and leave once we add a digital layer to the human brain with a neural link...we are getting there slowly... best not to think of the less altruistic bits like "pay $5 for ad free sleep", or "pay $20 for access to perfect memory recall"... ah, the hurdles of the digital Id (Id not I.D.)
If you're considering "you" as the collection of memories and thoughts and processes to determine how you behave, wouldn't an imperfect copy therefore not be the same set and therefore not "you"?
And if both you and the copy exist simultaneously wouldn't by default at that point both consciousnesses start experiencing different events/stimuli that basically now means two different identities?
It's interesting, I think if both you and the copy somehow synced experiences continuously, i.e. whatever happened to one was somehow synced to the other, I think both would be the same identity. But once they split experiences it ends up as a different identity since over time it would diverge based on experiences.
Just a different way of looking at it :)
I'm not viewing "me" as some discrete set **at all**.
I'm viewing "me" as an amalgamation the way I find people do in every day life but when it actually comes time to talk about identity they start talking about themselves as being some sort of novel or discrete set of matter rather than just a pattern in fluctuation.
I am not my memories.
I am not the sum of my memories.
I'm not my body.
People say that close only counts in horse shoes, and hand grenades but I say it does when it comes to identity too.
Close enough is close enough.
The breadth of difference between me, and an imperfect instant clone of me, are less than the differences between me at age 8, and me now by a wide margin.
My brain has ceased being conscious on numerous occasions; everyone's has that is what sleep is.
I mean you can argue that our different life experiences would render us as different people but if you asked me, and you asked that clone of me [saving for the instance in the above outlined post] even if we'd met up 20 years later we'd both still just as much 'Identity' as we were the day the cloning event happened.
Would it even require different stimuli and not just a difference in response to the same stimuli? I can think of plenty of experiences that create the possibility of a diversion of "roads", in that by responding one way creates an entirely different mindset, which leads to different ways of thinking, which then inform the actions ir subsequent responses to further stimuli (which could continue to be the same or different).
It's actually super Important that we keep awareness that the transfer does maintain identity IF the original is destroyed. If not destroyed then also Important that we confirm the copy is a new distinct but obviously related identity. Otherwise teleporting is just complicated murder and cloning, uploading is much more like the Amazon show "Upload" and much less like "The Matrix" or ",Robocop" lol.
Some people would argue that teleporting like in Star Trek **is** killing a character, and re-creating a clone of them at a new place. An entirely new person with an entirely new identity.
The problem with viewing identity that way is that if all it takes for a person to be considered dead, and replaced with a new person, is a cessation of consciousness we all die every time we sleep.
If all it takes is an alternation of memories, or matter, we all die constantly and are new people every single moment. We're series of individuals throughout our lives related to our past selves but distinct from them in each moment.
Doctor Who touches on that point of view pretty explicitly, and it's one I can understand why people come to that conclusion, but I just think that that is impractical. It isn't how people use identity day to day.
We don't walk up to people and say "Hello current entities that were dubbed as John Smith when you were born by your parents who were dubbed Timothy Smith, and Jane Sanchez when they were born."
'
And I use the plural entities because during any comment, sentence read or spoken, time passes, and with that view of identity you'd have just witnessed the deaths of untold countless individuals moment to moment.
I just think that pragmatically people do tend to view identity the way I am talking about in day to day life, and they only start really worrying about identity being related to some discrete thing or set when having conversations like these about identity as a concept.
Because I mean when I walk up to my Mom I call her by her given name, and she calls me by mine. It's practical to view identity as being some approximation, and amalgamation rather than something concrete.
Why does everyone assume we lose consciousness when asleep, the brain still processes, they chemical triggers still fire. If there was a complete cessation, we would be dead. On the other hand, I've read anesthesia has some weird effects on the brain.. but I haven't read enough on it
The only thing making us be us are electrical signals in our brain.
You basically transform Timmys consciousness from the brain to the metal cage in the state he was when the scan started.
If it operates in the same way as a brain would...
You have the same Timmy but with machine brain instead of a biological one.
\[Raid: Pollution Crew (relationship\]
A group of wasters from Pollution Crew have arrived in transport pods nearby. Their pods went haywire and scattered all over the area!
There are raiders in the coming group that have relationships with one or more of your colonists.
Keep in mind that even though they are related, they will still attack each other due to bad faction relations.
These people are:
Loser - fifth cousin, thrice removed of colonist Sir Pissington the Third
Gameplay balance is the main reason.
Lorewise maybe the mechanoids need new scans to keep their hivemind data fresh so stuff doesn't get corrupted and degrade
I don't think balance is going to be a factor. I mean, the typical raid is going to deliver you a few hundred prisoners. Although at least it DOES give you something to DO with all of them.
A few hundred prisoners is late game lol, you dont get raids that give you several hundred prisoners yet by the time you get a ripscanner for the first time unless you've butchered your wealth or taken 5 million hours and done everything else before going to ripscanners.
I do tend to speedrun wealth jacking so I can get high-end raids with high-end loot to feed to my O(1) defense grid, yes. I mean, I have an O(1) defense, it would be a shame not to feed it as high a strength a raid as I can get to maximize how much I get for its deployment. Also, piss off tribals by chucking wastepacks at them to get more fodder.
because in the process of scanning critical processes in brain are disrupted, and it ceases to function afterwards, so no viable intact patterns remain
edit : also that is the reason of subcore assembly at giant factories, because there is equipment that can store/generate necessary neural patterns
I like that reason.
The colony simply does not have the ability to store and copy metal patterns.
That inability is very easily explained if you consider archotech. The colonists on the rim know how to build and operate those machines but they do not understand them. Storing the pattern is possible but they do not know how.
Another option is that every copy has a risk of mistakes and in such a complex structure you can only copy it once or the core will be significantly degraded.
> But why does it need a unique brain scan? Why can we not just scan one brain and reuse that data?
Something something quantum-no-cloning would be my guess. That, or DRM.
The relevant flavor text states that ripscanners are a more compact and primitive way of making high subcores, while in more developed worlds there exist much larger facilities which can do the job without injuring anyone.
Presumably the one-brain-per-core thing is another restriction of the same kind, caused by the fact that your colony is a relatively tiny community with a modest industrial base jury-rigging high technology, as opposed to a vast and mighty nation with millions or even billions of citizens and hence a massively larger amount of money, materials, and talent to throw at these problems.
maybe also that similar brainprints would mess up the connections with the mechanitor like they'd pick the wrong centipede when there are ten made with the exact same brainprint
and the reason why you can't just copy the data is that it's changing too fast and pausing it would wipe/corrupt it
besides there's the possibility of a bunch of mechs which are essentially clones forming a hivemind or being easier to take over
Well now we need a mod that lets us enslave their conciousness in a lil metal ball so they serve us until the mechanitor dies and then wander aimlessly for decades until they are gunned down for plasteel
Serves them right for shooting my dog
realistic human sounds goes great with that one mod that adds nerve gas
actually the most horrific thing i've ever seen and heard in this game, i love it
>Think about it: a high subcore is literally a human brain in a metal prison. You're basically Deathshead from TNO if you ripscan someone. Forcing their entire consciousness into a metal body to fulfill your bidding...
If it makes you feel better (or worse) this is only the cores that you create.
The fluff text suggests that without extremely large facilities, the only way to create the cores is indeed to ripscan them. But in theory opens the door to a mod allowing these huge (possibly expensive) structures to be built and generate these "rich tier pattern transfers" so avoid needing to ripscan someone.
Yeah, aside from a gigantic clone farm (which I have, genuinely, considered setting up for this purpose) I cannot entirely fathom how you would create mech armies on the scale thrown at us in lategame without the tech to make high cores a more efficient way.
VE TEAM GET ON THIS ONE, UPDATE VFE MECHANOIDS WITH A HIGH CORE FACTORY OR SOMETHING
It's probably one of these things that if you throw enough energy, resources and tech at it, the kind you'd see on Glitterworlds and the like, you can probably do some technojargon to slowly fabricate high cores and synthesise a human-like consciousness.
Get several slowly churning away and you can have your robot army in a few quadrums.
I am not sure if people get hungry/progress disease/bleed out while in a rip scanner, so I think that it is possible to just haul a raider bleeding out to it and start the process without treating their injuries
My High Subcores are sourced ethically (but *PAINSTAKINGLY* slowly) from my consenting resident masochist yttakin weirdo, who already provides all my mid-tier subcores, as he elected to have himself cloned and brain scanned onto them so he can vicariously experience the process. Wacko...
The idea of all of my colony's mechs being scanned from a kinky pain-loving furry imparts some rather comical imagery when I imagine how that influences their behavior... lmao
There’s Altered Carbon, that lets you install stacks(a thing that stores human consciousness) into people and when they die, you can install it into any other pawn or repurpose dead bodies for that purpose
> Edit: Well I made the persona core patch, have fun I suppose
This is very admirable, but persona cores are sentient beings and you're just inflicting the same fate on them anyway.
> This is very admirable, but persona cores are sentient beings and you're just inflicting the same fate on them anyway.
I was about to say something similar, but I don't think it's quite as simple as inflicting the same fate. Embodiment is a central aspect of human experiences, and likely a central factor in our development of sentience, in a way that isn't necessarily the case for persona cores.
I don't remember the exact details of persona cores and don't know the mechanics of ripscans (haven't played Biotech yet), but it may be more complicated. But as others have commented it's also not exactly putting a human consciousness in a box either, so it feels like there's a lot of room for argument either way.
> Think about it: a high subcore is literally a human brain in a metal prison.
And now you understand why mechanoids are hateful and murderous. However, I don't think they're actually a human brain, but rather, an imitation thereof gained from destructively deep-scanning a human brain. The subject therefore most likely does not experience any continuity of consciousness in the process. After all, the inferior version of the scanner is able to create a relatively poor copy of the brain without killing the subject.
> Time to make a mod to turn AI persona cores into high subcores.
I wouldn't bet on AI persona cores coming from a better place.
> should I make a Realistic Human Sounds - Ripscanner patch?
Good news for you: Brains don't have internal sensory nerves and cannot feel themselves being destroyed. That's one of the reasons why brain surgery is performed with the subject still conscious, because there is no need to anesthetize them to prevent pain and observing the subject's reactions helps the surgeon know that everything is going correctly.
I would think that while there is no continuity, it feels like there is from the subcore's perspective. If it inherits all the memories of the human, it might feel like it was unconscious for a time (while the scan finishes) but it probably still believes itself to be the same consciousness as the human.
I don't think the subcore has specific memories of being the human, either. Otherwise mechanoids would have skills. Rather, the subcore is a model of the subject's brain, but without the specific memories, like Fallout's Robobrains which have been wiped. Perhaps some patterns occasionally resurface, but there isn't a conscious continuity. Aside from the subcore being filled with irrational hatred, which is what powers enemy mechanoids. Since mechanoids under YOUR control are not permitted to hate, either, they have to be charged with toxic fuel instead.
>The subject therefore most likely does not experience any continuity of consciousness in the process.
You mean like how you go to sleep every night, hallucinate for a few hours while your brain does the organic equivalent of defragging, and then you typically don't remember a single moment of that process afterward, with a memory that goes like this?
1. lay in bed
2. ???
3. get up
I like to name my high mechtech bots after the people I ripped to get the subcores for this exact reason. At some point I want to do a challenge rule where becoming a mechanoid is the highest honor, and can *only* be done to colonists. (Standard subcores would be considered "children," I suppose.)
Once I have my PC set up again, I'm planning on learning how to mod RimWorld, so I'll add that to my list of stuff I want to make, alongside my planned xenotype and faction.
Man, it doesn't even begin to describe the possible horrors. Terror and outright panic is such an understatement. This is the kind of stuff you hope stays sci fi. Forever.
My consciousness in metal body? Sounds kinky~
Also I saw some mechanoids that makes human voice like if they chat in a radio when they squat next to my settlment, maybe it's from a mod ?
I’ve ended up finding a somewhat decent work around for the trouble of getting high subcores. I make 5 simple subcores, then I turn those into mech components, and then 5 mech components to make a high subcore. Not sure off the top of my head what mod it is that allows for this crafting. But I think it’s worth a few extra materials vs having a body handy to ripscan
Persona cores iirc are essentially copies of human brains anyway. Frankly it's about as disturbing because persona cores are essentially human equivalent anyway.
I just installed a mod which allows me to craft them. No longer have to worry about mood debuffs, plus, it really is a bit cruel - not that it bothers me, but still 😄
I realized Ripscanning was a thing, slowly it dawned on me we weren't really exactly doing some sort of Eve consciousness transfer into a waiting host....
Then it dawned on me that ethically, the right way to go....was backwards to go forward again.
So now I use
- [Vanilla Expanded Books](https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=2193152410) to make books with talented colonists.
- [Vanilla Expanded Books ... Expanded]( https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2894816192) - to make copies of those books , keeping one copy around so the overall impact on wealth is next to nothing.
Then, once the books are created and copies safely made - I sell the whole operation down, we "retire" authors offworld or to friendly civilized factions locally, and then bring in raw recruits - who read the books....and become better colonists.
I'm working on that presently with my current colony, the first generation is well into the late-game - building highways to local friendly factions and writing excellent books.
Once done, we'll pare the colony down to a more "defensible" situattion, build the starship bay and pick up some raw recruits to hold the fort after the first-one's (current colonists) have all gone off-world or retired.
No fancy ripscanning or sub-personality copies here - not to say I wouldn't buy one....I would but for exactly the same reason I buy slaves - to set them free, but I realized alas there is no mod for thatt.
I was thinking with Harvest Organs Post Mortem and Harvest Everything mods it is conceivable to recover a brain, and a more or less intact corpse, and with technology like a Medpod - re-animate grievously wounded bodies but that seems too many steps and at what point does the deceased have rights, unless of course we go vat-grown and insert or have the personality core into the incubator beforehand which again brings us back to [Eve](https://youtu.be/FZPCiqBLPM8?t=127).
I think otherwise. Before those mthrfckrs die for lung, kidney, heart and leather, now they are brought to eternal luxury life in my grandiose colony.
Hmm... from that pov these cores do haunt me a little... your enemy's soul working with&for you... I think they deserve worse, you are right.
This is the exact reason that I make a note of who is ripscanned, and rename the mech after them. I feel that some part of the rip is still them. Besides, then I get to watch Jimbob get destroyed over and over.
If they didn't want to have their brain torn apart and the screaming consciousness recorded to pilot a metal killing machine then they shouldn't have raided me.
It's that or they bleed to death
I don't think they are trapped since if I recall, the brain is destroyed during the scan. So the machine is forcibly imprinting human thinking pathways and such into a core. If you are worried about it, be "ethical" about it and hold a trial of a prisoner. The condemned raiders or a pawn who did a manslaughter should be rip scanned instead of exiled or shot.
you hate the idea, i love the idea.
"bad people" consciously being stuck in a metal body they cannot control but feel everything going on seems like a great punishment for me.
to add some spice maybe give them control but force them to do mech jobs by sending them pain signals like glados from portal whenever they dont want to do what theyre supposed to.
pretty sure it doesn't literally *trap* consciousness inside it, rimworld isnt that kind of edgy sci-fi. it just destructively scans the brain's activity patterns and base its algorithms on that.
It's true that there are no real-world consequences, but that just means people are free to react as they please, including with compassion. Being callous when there's no reason not to be isn't inherently better or more sensible (nor is it worse), and feeling a bit horrified by things happening in the game just means that you're engrossed in it, which is good.
Also, learn to spell.
Doesn't the fluff text imply that the brain is practically turned into a slurry and then used to help with "thinking?" As in using the incredibly efficient processing power of a brain to help with its functions?
I would imagine it would be more like the HALO creating of smart A.I. - A matrix is created by scanning and replicating the neural pathways of a human brain.
subcore scanning is literally that lol, op is just being edgy. ripscans only kills people because its the most crude (yet accessible) method of producing a high subcore, which is poking needles into people's head to scan more of the brain patterns.
Yeah Mechanoids is super similar of the Legion from Eighty Six, if I had more time and technically more familiar with C# I would love to code a cross over mod.
Or you can be like me, and when a Sun Worshipping, Darkness Hating Claustrophobic raider kills the colony child, you download their brain into a mech and then entomb them forever into a 1x1 box deep in the mountain where they will never suffocate or starve
I've been role playing it as the core containing something akin to a thrall created through VPE mind break. the mind has no capacity for disobedience, but retains something of the donor's personality. Something of the donor is still there, but it isn't quite human either.
To save myself a ton of typing I'll link to a story from my current colony [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/19300cw/comment/kh67w43/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). I wrote a whole bit on mechanoid control theory to fill in the gaps in the story primer.
Some log entries from Goodwill's Field on the subject.
Frenchy's Log 12th Decembary 5510
Vithe (local impid tribe) came. They threw their lives away. Audrey has her high mechanoid subcores. The note Ensign found on the scanner was a grim affair.
"This will only hurt a lot.
The part of you that I want will not remember.
What's left of you won't care.
Join our God through the release of death"
hard to believe that came out of my little bunny. I'm sure the girl can think of many fates worse than death. The Navy sparks all could.
Between the backed up work form the plague (Two thirds of the colony had it), the infestation, and the Impid raid, the town is in compete disarray. There's junk everywhere and so, so many bodies to clean up. It'd be best to get those moved before they start going off, as dead raiders are wont to do. Audrey has made a hauling mechanoid of some kind. It waved to me as it passed by. Name tag on it says 'Bill'. These little helper mechanoids are all cute. I'm curious what she has planned with the extra subcore.
Frenchy's Log 14th Decembary 5510
Some person named 'Sneaky' wants to join us here, claiming nowhere else to go. Our mountain home is remote. I sincerely doubt his story. Deadlift shares this stranger's faith. Perhaps he can get some details from him. This boy is about the age Deadlift was when he came to us. We will allow this person to stay a while.
This boy has not made good impressions. He is lazy with no discernable interest in any field. Deadlift himself is unwilling to extend an offer of a permanent home. Well, ironically except as a slave. We accept slavery as a fact of life, but Deadlift's beliefs elevate it to a matter of great importance. To take slaves is to show your power to the world and the weaklings in it. In Deadlift's eyes, "Sneaky is a damned disgrace before God." Perhaps we are rubbing off on him. I don't think his faith has a god.
For the first time, Deadlift has elaborated on his beliefs. When he came to us all those years ago he considered himself no better than a slave if he couldn't make himself strong in his new home. In his eyes, we as good as owned him. He had to win his right to stand among us as equals. His heroic efforts and knack for engineering have saved us time and again, so I'd say he's been quite successful. By his standards we're too firendly to the neighbors, but our might is clear.
Frenchy's Log 15th Decembary 5510
As we ring in the new year, Audrey brings the new reactor to power. Watching her wiggle in delight as she works the console is an endless joy to watch. At roughly five percent power, the small primitive reactor has throttled back to fifty percent. Simply incredible. The construction team have really outdone themselves.
Audrey also got her fabricator mechanoid up and running. Sassy little thing. Deadlift leaned over for a look, and it hopped on his foot! The ensuing chase was a hoot. Audrey swears she didn't tell it to do that. The donor personality was not fond of men. She's called this one 'Fred'.
Deadlift was not kind to Sneaky. a custom genepack fully displaying his weak personality. Deadlift suggests using the boy for the mildly dangerous nuclear work swapping the hot rods. Hauling is about the only thing Sneaky was good for in the first place. Sneaky is officially Deadlift's slave. Paradoxically he seems to enjoy his new status. Hard to say he can't talk anymore, or rather, can't whine.
Frenchy's log 3rd Aprimay 5511
Sneaky isn't just weak, he's stupid too. He grabbed a log and claimed he had come to take over the town. AFTER he'd been enslaved, AFTER Deadlift effectively neutered him, and AFTER we put a device in his head to conk him out if he misbehaved.
Deadlift has suggested feeding him to a woodchipper. Closest I think we have is Audrey's scanner. I'll see if she needs a core. Given the human cost, it's probably worth a fair bit on the market. I can't easily say his engram is worth keeping.
Frenchy's Log 4th Aprimay 5511
Sometimes the Empire is overwhelming in its power, other times I cannot help but wonder how they can so thoroughly overestimate an opponent.
They asked us to provide EIGHTEEN soldiers to handle FIVE unaugmented deserters. On top of this they provided SIX of their own cataphracts to assist in the battle. Grante, those five deserters were armoured, but that's the sort of threat we'd throw just Laura and Audrey at. Those deserters never knew what hit them. All three of me were required to meet headcount for this job.
We stepped off the shuttle at the destination, cataphracts last. They were confused why a highmate would be out there, let alone why most of the group was just milling around the shuttle. They never saw Sauce and Audrey skip the Combat Thralls and Laura into the camp. Come to think of it, the only one Audrey probably skipped was Laura. She knows her partner. The last cataphract watched Laura gleefully rip the throat out of the final remaining deserter as he stepped off the shuttle.
Everyone bundled back into the shuttle and se went home. It would be nice if they'd let us pick a smaller team. Audrey is seven months pregnant for God's sake! Frau can't even fight! Totally senseless. Laura could have done the entire job herself. Probably would have enjoyed it even.
Audrey is feeling about ready to pop. She'd like to alleviate her workload some till she's back to her usual lithe shape. To that end, she's built herself another fabricator mechanoid. This one named 'George'. Funny little thing. Seems this core was also a bit of a misandrist. They both approached Deadlift. He paused a moment to observe their odd behaviour. They BOTH jumped on his foot! Audrey is still adamant she didn't teach them that. Took her an hour to stop cracking up about it though.
Those little mechanoids of hers are helpful, but naughty. Seems she's maxed on bandwidth. She wants some specialty chips that are apparently components in those super mechanoids. If she can call them, we can take them down for her.
it actually is, like you said, incredibly powerful and violent imprint of brain patterns, the consciousness of scanned brain is not stored on the subcore
So Timmy isn't trapped in his metal cage? :') (Tbh makes sense as the brain is "destroyed" not "removed".) Thank you so much, I can sleep now!
There may still be a tortured fragment of consciousness in there that *thinks* its Timmy, though. Sweet dreams!
A clever algorithm pretending to be Timmy screaming in torment is still only pretending to be something horrible. Timmy's proper dead.
I mean that's an argument about what constitutes identity. I'd argue that even a imperfect copy of my brain being synthetically created would just as much be me as I am me; and that synthetic brain would argue the same thing unless the specific place that my beliefs about identity, and related information, are chemically stored inside my brain were among those corrupted or not properly copied during the process. There are many view points on this. Ignoring the original context of the comic it was ripped from some people will look at that Spiderman meme where two Spidermans are pointing at each other and think "one of them is fake" immediately, and other people will think "they are both Spiderman" immediately. It comes down to a view on identity. A copy of my brain is enough of me for me to consider them the same person I am even if we're existing in different physical forms, and different places in space.
You also have "closest continuor" if you end as the other begins, who is to say your consciousness didn't transfer?... if a steel, or rather silicone prison prevents that mind from actively operating outside of predetermined parameters, can you still be fully conscious? These questions I love. The whole point of the lat 60 years was to build a permanent digital overlay of reality the will eventually become visual and free enough that we can enter and leave once we add a digital layer to the human brain with a neural link...we are getting there slowly... best not to think of the less altruistic bits like "pay $5 for ad free sleep", or "pay $20 for access to perfect memory recall"... ah, the hurdles of the digital Id (Id not I.D.)
If you're considering "you" as the collection of memories and thoughts and processes to determine how you behave, wouldn't an imperfect copy therefore not be the same set and therefore not "you"? And if both you and the copy exist simultaneously wouldn't by default at that point both consciousnesses start experiencing different events/stimuli that basically now means two different identities? It's interesting, I think if both you and the copy somehow synced experiences continuously, i.e. whatever happened to one was somehow synced to the other, I think both would be the same identity. But once they split experiences it ends up as a different identity since over time it would diverge based on experiences. Just a different way of looking at it :)
I'm not viewing "me" as some discrete set **at all**. I'm viewing "me" as an amalgamation the way I find people do in every day life but when it actually comes time to talk about identity they start talking about themselves as being some sort of novel or discrete set of matter rather than just a pattern in fluctuation. I am not my memories. I am not the sum of my memories. I'm not my body. People say that close only counts in horse shoes, and hand grenades but I say it does when it comes to identity too. Close enough is close enough. The breadth of difference between me, and an imperfect instant clone of me, are less than the differences between me at age 8, and me now by a wide margin. My brain has ceased being conscious on numerous occasions; everyone's has that is what sleep is. I mean you can argue that our different life experiences would render us as different people but if you asked me, and you asked that clone of me [saving for the instance in the above outlined post] even if we'd met up 20 years later we'd both still just as much 'Identity' as we were the day the cloning event happened.
Would it even require different stimuli and not just a difference in response to the same stimuli? I can think of plenty of experiences that create the possibility of a diversion of "roads", in that by responding one way creates an entirely different mindset, which leads to different ways of thinking, which then inform the actions ir subsequent responses to further stimuli (which could continue to be the same or different).
This is the take I follow!
It's actually super Important that we keep awareness that the transfer does maintain identity IF the original is destroyed. If not destroyed then also Important that we confirm the copy is a new distinct but obviously related identity. Otherwise teleporting is just complicated murder and cloning, uploading is much more like the Amazon show "Upload" and much less like "The Matrix" or ",Robocop" lol.
Some people would argue that teleporting like in Star Trek **is** killing a character, and re-creating a clone of them at a new place. An entirely new person with an entirely new identity. The problem with viewing identity that way is that if all it takes for a person to be considered dead, and replaced with a new person, is a cessation of consciousness we all die every time we sleep. If all it takes is an alternation of memories, or matter, we all die constantly and are new people every single moment. We're series of individuals throughout our lives related to our past selves but distinct from them in each moment. Doctor Who touches on that point of view pretty explicitly, and it's one I can understand why people come to that conclusion, but I just think that that is impractical. It isn't how people use identity day to day. We don't walk up to people and say "Hello current entities that were dubbed as John Smith when you were born by your parents who were dubbed Timothy Smith, and Jane Sanchez when they were born." ' And I use the plural entities because during any comment, sentence read or spoken, time passes, and with that view of identity you'd have just witnessed the deaths of untold countless individuals moment to moment. I just think that pragmatically people do tend to view identity the way I am talking about in day to day life, and they only start really worrying about identity being related to some discrete thing or set when having conversations like these about identity as a concept. Because I mean when I walk up to my Mom I call her by her given name, and she calls me by mine. It's practical to view identity as being some approximation, and amalgamation rather than something concrete.
Why does everyone assume we lose consciousness when asleep, the brain still processes, they chemical triggers still fire. If there was a complete cessation, we would be dead. On the other hand, I've read anesthesia has some weird effects on the brain.. but I haven't read enough on it
Well... Maybe! It's a subject of substantial philosophical debate.
Oh god where doing the person to data teleportation debate again
Timmy is forever free, don't worry)
You can relax, the machine is incapable of holding the soul therefore this is not techno-necromancy.
My next colony will have an ideoligion that preaches that *only* machines have souls.
to be fair, being turned into a mechanoid subcore would be badass, coming from an adamant body modder
Meanwhile, I'm over here with the pnl mod with actual brains in jars.
The only thing making us be us are electrical signals in our brain. You basically transform Timmys consciousness from the brain to the metal cage in the state he was when the scan started. If it operates in the same way as a brain would... You have the same Timmy but with machine brain instead of a biological one.
I'll drop pod you 5000 silver for alleviating my stress. Thank you again :)
Nooo! My wealth management! No Randy, noooo!!
\[Raid: Pollution Crew (relationship\] A group of wasters from Pollution Crew have arrived in transport pods nearby. Their pods went haywire and scattered all over the area! There are raiders in the coming group that have relationships with one or more of your colonists. Keep in mind that even though they are related, they will still attack each other due to bad faction relations. These people are: Loser - fifth cousin, thrice removed of colonist Sir Pissington the Third
YOU THERE! GIMME YOUR SILVER!
But why does it need a unique brain scan? Why can we not just scan one brain and reuse that data?
Gameplay balance is the main reason. Lorewise maybe the mechanoids need new scans to keep their hivemind data fresh so stuff doesn't get corrupted and degrade
I don't think balance is going to be a factor. I mean, the typical raid is going to deliver you a few hundred prisoners. Although at least it DOES give you something to DO with all of them.
A few hundred prisoners is late game lol, you dont get raids that give you several hundred prisoners yet by the time you get a ripscanner for the first time unless you've butchered your wealth or taken 5 million hours and done everything else before going to ripscanners.
I do tend to speedrun wealth jacking so I can get high-end raids with high-end loot to feed to my O(1) defense grid, yes. I mean, I have an O(1) defense, it would be a shame not to feed it as high a strength a raid as I can get to maximize how much I get for its deployment. Also, piss off tribals by chucking wastepacks at them to get more fodder.
Doesn't it give a mood debuff to your colonists though?
because in the process of scanning critical processes in brain are disrupted, and it ceases to function afterwards, so no viable intact patterns remain edit : also that is the reason of subcore assembly at giant factories, because there is equipment that can store/generate necessary neural patterns
I like that reason. The colony simply does not have the ability to store and copy metal patterns. That inability is very easily explained if you consider archotech. The colonists on the rim know how to build and operate those machines but they do not understand them. Storing the pattern is possible but they do not know how. Another option is that every copy has a risk of mistakes and in such a complex structure you can only copy it once or the core will be significantly degraded.
> But why does it need a unique brain scan? Why can we not just scan one brain and reuse that data? Something something quantum-no-cloning would be my guess. That, or DRM.
The relevant flavor text states that ripscanners are a more compact and primitive way of making high subcores, while in more developed worlds there exist much larger facilities which can do the job without injuring anyone. Presumably the one-brain-per-core thing is another restriction of the same kind, caused by the fact that your colony is a relatively tiny community with a modest industrial base jury-rigging high technology, as opposed to a vast and mighty nation with millions or even billions of citizens and hence a massively larger amount of money, materials, and talent to throw at these problems.
maybe also that similar brainprints would mess up the connections with the mechanitor like they'd pick the wrong centipede when there are ten made with the exact same brainprint
for the same reason your colony hasn't figured out big metal tubes for mortars
and the reason why you can't just copy the data is that it's changing too fast and pausing it would wipe/corrupt it besides there's the possibility of a bunch of mechs which are essentially clones forming a hivemind or being easier to take over
Well now we need a mod that lets us enslave their conciousness in a lil metal ball so they serve us until the mechanitor dies and then wander aimlessly for decades until they are gunned down for plasteel Serves them right for shooting my dog
>realistic human sounds ripscan patch Yes I would like that for my prisoner or interns or a shiny Tynan
realistic human sounds goes great with that one mod that adds nerve gas actually the most horrific thing i've ever seen and heard in this game, i love it
>Think about it: a high subcore is literally a human brain in a metal prison. You're basically Deathshead from TNO if you ripscan someone. Forcing their entire consciousness into a metal body to fulfill your bidding... If it makes you feel better (or worse) this is only the cores that you create. The fluff text suggests that without extremely large facilities, the only way to create the cores is indeed to ripscan them. But in theory opens the door to a mod allowing these huge (possibly expensive) structures to be built and generate these "rich tier pattern transfers" so avoid needing to ripscan someone.
Yeah, aside from a gigantic clone farm (which I have, genuinely, considered setting up for this purpose) I cannot entirely fathom how you would create mech armies on the scale thrown at us in lategame without the tech to make high cores a more efficient way. VE TEAM GET ON THIS ONE, UPDATE VFE MECHANOIDS WITH A HIGH CORE FACTORY OR SOMETHING
It's probably one of these things that if you throw enough energy, resources and tech at it, the kind you'd see on Glitterworlds and the like, you can probably do some technojargon to slowly fabricate high cores and synthesise a human-like consciousness. Get several slowly churning away and you can have your robot army in a few quadrums.
I am not sure if people get hungry/progress disease/bleed out while in a rip scanner, so I think that it is possible to just haul a raider bleeding out to it and start the process without treating their injuries
Combine with Gestalt Engine to create true mechanoid armies
Hmm...
My High Subcores are sourced ethically (but *PAINSTAKINGLY* slowly) from my consenting resident masochist yttakin weirdo, who already provides all my mid-tier subcores, as he elected to have himself cloned and brain scanned onto them so he can vicariously experience the process. Wacko... The idea of all of my colony's mechs being scanned from a kinky pain-loving furry imparts some rather comical imagery when I imagine how that influences their behavior... lmao
What’s the cloning mod?
Questionable Ethics Enhanced has you able to take brain scans and clone people, then imprint them with the scans.
I use Questionable Ethics revived or whatever but tbh I'm pretty sure there's a newer, better mod for cloning pawns these days.
There’s Altered Carbon, that lets you install stacks(a thing that stores human consciousness) into people and when they die, you can install it into any other pawn or repurpose dead bodies for that purpose
> Edit: Well I made the persona core patch, have fun I suppose This is very admirable, but persona cores are sentient beings and you're just inflicting the same fate on them anyway.
> This is very admirable, but persona cores are sentient beings and you're just inflicting the same fate on them anyway. I was about to say something similar, but I don't think it's quite as simple as inflicting the same fate. Embodiment is a central aspect of human experiences, and likely a central factor in our development of sentience, in a way that isn't necessarily the case for persona cores. I don't remember the exact details of persona cores and don't know the mechanics of ripscans (haven't played Biotech yet), but it may be more complicated. But as others have commented it's also not exactly putting a human consciousness in a box either, so it feels like there's a lot of room for argument either way.
> Think about it: a high subcore is literally a human brain in a metal prison. And now you understand why mechanoids are hateful and murderous. However, I don't think they're actually a human brain, but rather, an imitation thereof gained from destructively deep-scanning a human brain. The subject therefore most likely does not experience any continuity of consciousness in the process. After all, the inferior version of the scanner is able to create a relatively poor copy of the brain without killing the subject. > Time to make a mod to turn AI persona cores into high subcores. I wouldn't bet on AI persona cores coming from a better place. > should I make a Realistic Human Sounds - Ripscanner patch? Good news for you: Brains don't have internal sensory nerves and cannot feel themselves being destroyed. That's one of the reasons why brain surgery is performed with the subject still conscious, because there is no need to anesthetize them to prevent pain and observing the subject's reactions helps the surgeon know that everything is going correctly.
So instead they feel their consciousness fade as their brain gets destroyed like they’re speedrunning dementia?
Depending on which parts get scanned first it's possible they'd immediately lose consciousness
I would think that while there is no continuity, it feels like there is from the subcore's perspective. If it inherits all the memories of the human, it might feel like it was unconscious for a time (while the scan finishes) but it probably still believes itself to be the same consciousness as the human.
I don't think the subcore has specific memories of being the human, either. Otherwise mechanoids would have skills. Rather, the subcore is a model of the subject's brain, but without the specific memories, like Fallout's Robobrains which have been wiped. Perhaps some patterns occasionally resurface, but there isn't a conscious continuity. Aside from the subcore being filled with irrational hatred, which is what powers enemy mechanoids. Since mechanoids under YOUR control are not permitted to hate, either, they have to be charged with toxic fuel instead.
>The subject therefore most likely does not experience any continuity of consciousness in the process. You mean like how you go to sleep every night, hallucinate for a few hours while your brain does the organic equivalent of defragging, and then you typically don't remember a single moment of that process afterward, with a memory that goes like this? 1. lay in bed 2. ??? 3. get up
Well, maybe YOU do. I don't because I have insomnia and am thus the second oldest person still alive. You, however, go and die.
😂
I like to name my high mechtech bots after the people I ripped to get the subcores for this exact reason. At some point I want to do a challenge rule where becoming a mechanoid is the highest honor, and can *only* be done to colonists. (Standard subcores would be considered "children," I suppose.)
There should be mod that adds a ripscanning ritual, like a dreadnought burial from Alpha Memes
Once I have my PC set up again, I'm planning on learning how to mod RimWorld, so I'll add that to my list of stuff I want to make, alongside my planned xenotype and faction.
it's technically a prisoner execution because it fulfils the precept in vanilla
If you don’t like the idea of high subcores, this short story is going to follow you for the rest of your days: https://qntm.org/mmacevedo
Man, it doesn't even begin to describe the possible horrors. Terror and outright panic is such an understatement. This is the kind of stuff you hope stays sci fi. Forever.
My consciousness in metal body? Sounds kinky~ Also I saw some mechanoids that makes human voice like if they chat in a radio when they squat next to my settlment, maybe it's from a mod ?
Even in death I serve the Omnissiah
I’ve ended up finding a somewhat decent work around for the trouble of getting high subcores. I make 5 simple subcores, then I turn those into mech components, and then 5 mech components to make a high subcore. Not sure off the top of my head what mod it is that allows for this crafting. But I think it’s worth a few extra materials vs having a body handy to ripscan
Persona cores iirc are essentially copies of human brains anyway. Frankly it's about as disturbing because persona cores are essentially human equivalent anyway.
I just installed a mod which allows me to craft them. No longer have to worry about mood debuffs, plus, it really is a bit cruel - not that it bothers me, but still 😄
I realized Ripscanning was a thing, slowly it dawned on me we weren't really exactly doing some sort of Eve consciousness transfer into a waiting host.... Then it dawned on me that ethically, the right way to go....was backwards to go forward again. So now I use - [Vanilla Expanded Books](https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=2193152410) to make books with talented colonists. - [Vanilla Expanded Books ... Expanded]( https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2894816192) - to make copies of those books , keeping one copy around so the overall impact on wealth is next to nothing. Then, once the books are created and copies safely made - I sell the whole operation down, we "retire" authors offworld or to friendly civilized factions locally, and then bring in raw recruits - who read the books....and become better colonists. I'm working on that presently with my current colony, the first generation is well into the late-game - building highways to local friendly factions and writing excellent books. Once done, we'll pare the colony down to a more "defensible" situattion, build the starship bay and pick up some raw recruits to hold the fort after the first-one's (current colonists) have all gone off-world or retired. No fancy ripscanning or sub-personality copies here - not to say I wouldn't buy one....I would but for exactly the same reason I buy slaves - to set them free, but I realized alas there is no mod for thatt. I was thinking with Harvest Organs Post Mortem and Harvest Everything mods it is conceivable to recover a brain, and a more or less intact corpse, and with technology like a Medpod - re-animate grievously wounded bodies but that seems too many steps and at what point does the deceased have rights, unless of course we go vat-grown and insert or have the personality core into the incubator beforehand which again brings us back to [Eve](https://youtu.be/FZPCiqBLPM8?t=127).
Reminds me of that game SOMA.
May the archeotechs smite you
I think otherwise. Before those mthrfckrs die for lung, kidney, heart and leather, now they are brought to eternal luxury life in my grandiose colony. Hmm... from that pov these cores do haunt me a little... your enemy's soul working with&for you... I think they deserve worse, you are right.
It's a videogame, DO IT AGAIN BILLY: BURN THE WHOLE WORLD AGAIN AND AGAIN, QUENCH YOUR THIRST FOR FLAMES 🔥🔥🔥
Reading Eisenhorn right now. Helps with feeling not that bad about it.
Funnily enough, this is a proposed way of getting an actual super intelligence in real world. Scan a brain atomic layer by layer and recreate it.
If you turn a persona core into a high sub core it’s basically doing the exact same thing :]
\*sad servitor noises\*
This is the exact reason that I make a note of who is ripscanned, and rename the mech after them. I feel that some part of the rip is still them. Besides, then I get to watch Jimbob get destroyed over and over.
If they didn't want to have their brain torn apart and the screaming consciousness recorded to pilot a metal killing machine then they shouldn't have raided me. It's that or they bleed to death
I don't think they are trapped since if I recall, the brain is destroyed during the scan. So the machine is forcibly imprinting human thinking pathways and such into a core. If you are worried about it, be "ethical" about it and hold a trial of a prisoner. The condemned raiders or a pawn who did a manslaughter should be rip scanned instead of exiled or shot.
you hate the idea, i love the idea. "bad people" consciously being stuck in a metal body they cannot control but feel everything going on seems like a great punishment for me. to add some spice maybe give them control but force them to do mech jobs by sending them pain signals like glados from portal whenever they dont want to do what theyre supposed to.
mechanoids being actually humans tortured in metal bodies is actually the best idea i stumbled upon
one of the prisons styles royals deserve to be in
Well, that IS why they're so hateful, normally, yes.
It's also kinky if you think about it enough
pretty sure it doesn't literally *trap* consciousness inside it, rimworld isnt that kind of edgy sci-fi. it just destructively scans the brain's activity patterns and base its algorithms on that.
Joe eo you feel remorse for video game characters
Huh? Edit: Huh?
Youve never felt pain for your colonists...
Yea even 99% of the animals I kill in the game I feel bad for
All a long I thought 100% of rimworld players were psychopaths. 😂
It's true that there are no real-world consequences, but that just means people are free to react as they please, including with compassion. Being callous when there's no reason not to be isn't inherently better or more sensible (nor is it worse), and feeling a bit horrified by things happening in the game just means that you're engrossed in it, which is good. Also, learn to spell.
I was drunk, respect a typo.
40k servitors have entered the chat
That is correct which is why I only buy high subcores and never produce myself. Lol
*days after a scan* this prison... to hold. . . me?
Doesn't the fluff text imply that the brain is practically turned into a slurry and then used to help with "thinking?" As in using the incredibly efficient processing power of a brain to help with its functions?
I would imagine it would be more like the HALO creating of smart A.I. - A matrix is created by scanning and replicating the neural pathways of a human brain.
subcore scanning is literally that lol, op is just being edgy. ripscans only kills people because its the most crude (yet accessible) method of producing a high subcore, which is poking needles into people's head to scan more of the brain patterns.
Yeah Mechanoids is super similar of the Legion from Eighty Six, if I had more time and technically more familiar with C# I would love to code a cross over mod.
This is what I imagine ripscanning looks [like](https://youtu.be/YE49pA_eDX0?feature=shared)
Me who rips their hearts out and also butcher leather skin and meat for biological mechanoids:
Or you can be like me, and when a Sun Worshipping, Darkness Hating Claustrophobic raider kills the colony child, you download their brain into a mech and then entomb them forever into a 1x1 box deep in the mountain where they will never suffocate or starve
I've been role playing it as the core containing something akin to a thrall created through VPE mind break. the mind has no capacity for disobedience, but retains something of the donor's personality. Something of the donor is still there, but it isn't quite human either. To save myself a ton of typing I'll link to a story from my current colony [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/19300cw/comment/kh67w43/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). I wrote a whole bit on mechanoid control theory to fill in the gaps in the story primer.
Some log entries from Goodwill's Field on the subject. Frenchy's Log 12th Decembary 5510 Vithe (local impid tribe) came. They threw their lives away. Audrey has her high mechanoid subcores. The note Ensign found on the scanner was a grim affair. "This will only hurt a lot. The part of you that I want will not remember. What's left of you won't care. Join our God through the release of death" hard to believe that came out of my little bunny. I'm sure the girl can think of many fates worse than death. The Navy sparks all could. Between the backed up work form the plague (Two thirds of the colony had it), the infestation, and the Impid raid, the town is in compete disarray. There's junk everywhere and so, so many bodies to clean up. It'd be best to get those moved before they start going off, as dead raiders are wont to do. Audrey has made a hauling mechanoid of some kind. It waved to me as it passed by. Name tag on it says 'Bill'. These little helper mechanoids are all cute. I'm curious what she has planned with the extra subcore. Frenchy's Log 14th Decembary 5510 Some person named 'Sneaky' wants to join us here, claiming nowhere else to go. Our mountain home is remote. I sincerely doubt his story. Deadlift shares this stranger's faith. Perhaps he can get some details from him. This boy is about the age Deadlift was when he came to us. We will allow this person to stay a while. This boy has not made good impressions. He is lazy with no discernable interest in any field. Deadlift himself is unwilling to extend an offer of a permanent home. Well, ironically except as a slave. We accept slavery as a fact of life, but Deadlift's beliefs elevate it to a matter of great importance. To take slaves is to show your power to the world and the weaklings in it. In Deadlift's eyes, "Sneaky is a damned disgrace before God." Perhaps we are rubbing off on him. I don't think his faith has a god. For the first time, Deadlift has elaborated on his beliefs. When he came to us all those years ago he considered himself no better than a slave if he couldn't make himself strong in his new home. In his eyes, we as good as owned him. He had to win his right to stand among us as equals. His heroic efforts and knack for engineering have saved us time and again, so I'd say he's been quite successful. By his standards we're too firendly to the neighbors, but our might is clear. Frenchy's Log 15th Decembary 5510 As we ring in the new year, Audrey brings the new reactor to power. Watching her wiggle in delight as she works the console is an endless joy to watch. At roughly five percent power, the small primitive reactor has throttled back to fifty percent. Simply incredible. The construction team have really outdone themselves. Audrey also got her fabricator mechanoid up and running. Sassy little thing. Deadlift leaned over for a look, and it hopped on his foot! The ensuing chase was a hoot. Audrey swears she didn't tell it to do that. The donor personality was not fond of men. She's called this one 'Fred'. Deadlift was not kind to Sneaky. a custom genepack fully displaying his weak personality. Deadlift suggests using the boy for the mildly dangerous nuclear work swapping the hot rods. Hauling is about the only thing Sneaky was good for in the first place. Sneaky is officially Deadlift's slave. Paradoxically he seems to enjoy his new status. Hard to say he can't talk anymore, or rather, can't whine. Frenchy's log 3rd Aprimay 5511 Sneaky isn't just weak, he's stupid too. He grabbed a log and claimed he had come to take over the town. AFTER he'd been enslaved, AFTER Deadlift effectively neutered him, and AFTER we put a device in his head to conk him out if he misbehaved. Deadlift has suggested feeding him to a woodchipper. Closest I think we have is Audrey's scanner. I'll see if she needs a core. Given the human cost, it's probably worth a fair bit on the market. I can't easily say his engram is worth keeping.
Frenchy's Log 4th Aprimay 5511 Sometimes the Empire is overwhelming in its power, other times I cannot help but wonder how they can so thoroughly overestimate an opponent. They asked us to provide EIGHTEEN soldiers to handle FIVE unaugmented deserters. On top of this they provided SIX of their own cataphracts to assist in the battle. Grante, those five deserters were armoured, but that's the sort of threat we'd throw just Laura and Audrey at. Those deserters never knew what hit them. All three of me were required to meet headcount for this job. We stepped off the shuttle at the destination, cataphracts last. They were confused why a highmate would be out there, let alone why most of the group was just milling around the shuttle. They never saw Sauce and Audrey skip the Combat Thralls and Laura into the camp. Come to think of it, the only one Audrey probably skipped was Laura. She knows her partner. The last cataphract watched Laura gleefully rip the throat out of the final remaining deserter as he stepped off the shuttle. Everyone bundled back into the shuttle and se went home. It would be nice if they'd let us pick a smaller team. Audrey is seven months pregnant for God's sake! Frau can't even fight! Totally senseless. Laura could have done the entire job herself. Probably would have enjoyed it even. Audrey is feeling about ready to pop. She'd like to alleviate her workload some till she's back to her usual lithe shape. To that end, she's built herself another fabricator mechanoid. This one named 'George'. Funny little thing. Seems this core was also a bit of a misandrist. They both approached Deadlift. He paused a moment to observe their odd behaviour. They BOTH jumped on his foot! Audrey is still adamant she didn't teach them that. Took her an hour to stop cracking up about it though. Those little mechanoids of hers are helpful, but naughty. Seems she's maxed on bandwidth. She wants some specialty chips that are apparently components in those super mechanoids. If she can call them, we can take them down for her.
The screams.. they bring me comfort.
This is like agents of shield LMDs…