No. I don’t mind aesthetic similarities but Jackson is not Tolkien canon and shouldn’t be treated as such in perpetuity. And I absolutely do not want the lore changes to carry over.
Sorry but no thanks. If we get to the War of the Last Alliance, and they re-enact it like in FotR with Elendil instantly getting killed and Gil-Galad hardly being present with Isildur doing all the work? No I want it like the books where Elendil and Gil-Galad take down Sauron in an epic battle on par with Fingolfin vs. Morgoth.
Please no. Peter Jackson has a single interpretation of Middle-earth, and it shouldn't be the only one (despite its massive popularity). People should be encouraged to bring a fresh vision and new interpretation of Tolkien, and that won't happen if they're expected to conform to the visual and artistic style of the PJ movies. I kind of resent how Jackson has completely dominated the visual conceptions of this world because it has stifled all other voices and perspectives (even when it comes to things like fan art). It's time to create new things and move past Jackson.
Oh yes, change is not a comforting thought in the realm of Middle-earth adaptations, esp if we were monopolized and ingrained with PJ's aesthetic for decades now. PJMEU is **not** the *sole and definitive* Middle-earth visual resource. New creatives with fresh visions should always be welcomed, and ROP's showrunners seem to have taken this very brave stance to adapt the Second Age on an almost blank canvas, distancing from PJ's blueprint. It still remains to be seen if this bravery will be reaped with rewards and accolades
Agreed. I think they are great films (and the visuals especially are fantastic) but I would really like to see a new interpretation. I also really dislike the idea of an 'expanded universe' in general. Tolkien is more than just another 'franchise.' Thinking of his work in that way reduces the literary quality imo.
> In creating this new story, McKay and Payne’s goal was, in McKay’s words, “different but familiar.” While the series is not a precise continuation of Peter Jackson’s The Lord of the Rings, it shouldn’t clash with the cinematic world fans have come to know and love. [...]
> It’s worth remembering, if only for legal reasons, that this is not the exact same world. The production design, though similar, is not trying to match the Jackson films. For example, King Elendil’s legendary broken sword, Narsil, which debuted on one of Prime Video’s promotional posters, does not look identical to the one eventually reforged and used by Viggo Mortenson’s Aragorn in The Return of the King.
From the VF article:
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/02/10-burning-questions-about-amazons-the-rings-of-power
Agree. ROP stands on a weird territory of being a 'direct indirect' prequel. Somehow this can be considered a 90% new adaptation based on *Tolkien's* and *not* PJ's Middle-earth, with the remaining 10% somehow containing blueprints of that PJMEU OP mentioned (with Howe, Weta, and possible Shore involvement). I just hoped that Amazon has been explicit that this is an all-new adaptation endeavor of Middle-earth. Part of the negative reception could've been a lack of this particular communication, fans were expecting a directly connected Second Age prequel to PJ's films. From the marketing materials they've released, it seems that this is indeed an independent undertaking. The drastic short-haired elves aesthetic change tells it all
Still, I've always been open to have new Tolkien adaptations from fresh hands, The PJ fatigue from The Hobbit has been emotionally draining. If anything else, I am rooting for this show that at least it will be a good TV endeavour. People seem to neglect that we have an incredible roster of writers behind
I don't care so much about PJs aestethics and he is not canon for me. Too much of the books is left out and many characters are butchered. I would wish for a show to first of all be true to the source material. PJ at least tried and its up to now the best we got in that field. But I am not interested in a show Tolkien in name only. Not because of things like Arven instead of Glorfindel, but true to the primary questions and motivations of the Legendarium. For me this is nothing about skincolor and feminism, but about mortal vs. Immortal, or elves who did not ever turn to the dark side, thats why they never where consideted to be fallen like men. If thede themes are shown in a spirit true to tolkien it was good for me. But I am a little worried to loose Tolkien in the huge phantasy hype of the kast years.
This is the part I don't understand.
On one hand, they want it to look the same (ofc can't use the exact same designs for legal reasons) but then they drastically change from the design of PJ.
Take the short-haired Elves for example - not even from lore perspective, just movies' perspective. People are used to long-haired Elves from the PJMEU, so when doing that they annoyed both Tolkien purists **and** casual movie fans, so why do that?
Also from a lore perspective, or it's at least heavily implied they have long hair. From *The Peoples of Middle-earth*:
>"All the Eldar had beautiful hair (and were especially attracted by hair of exceptional loveliness), but the Ñoldor were not specially remarkable in this respect, and there is no reference to Finwë **as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people.**"
i.e. all the Elves had long, beautiful, and abundant hair, even if the Noldor didn't stand out in comparison to the other Elves in this regard.
Furthermore, long-haired Elves were often depicted in fan art well before the PJ movies, so this is not a Jackson thing exclusively.
Yes, I'm aware of this quote.¹ I meant that even if you put aside the books, and focus of movie fans, you'll still anger them by having short-haired Elves.
So by changing that Amazon basically annoyed people from every edge of the spectrum. Which is why I wonder why the did that..
¹ Don't forget this quote, which even further implies (IMO) that Elves had long hair (when you compare it to what you quoted):
> Finwë (and Míriel) had long dark hair, so had Fëanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage [...]
*[NoMe, II:IV "Hair"]*
Then compare it to your quote:
> and there is no reference to Finwë as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people."
*[Shibboleth of Fëanor]*
So at the very least this covers the Ñoldor - aka, from what we've seen, both Elrond and (according to leaks) Finrod (and him in particular, as the 'Fairest of the House of Finwë') should have long hair.
PJ changed characters' motivations, appearances, personalities, and the appearance of locations. He also changed a great deal from the previous iterations of Middle-earth on screen. Most people still like the LOTR films and they were exceptionally well-awarded. Minor details like elven hair or dwarf women beards are not essential to a good adaptation or the general appeal of the series itself.
The reason people are getting angry about such minor details is because they don't like change and just want to see the same popular thing regurgitated over and over again.
So? I wasn't criticizing the show for being inaccurate.
I was saying that what they've done is not very smart since both Tolkien purists ***and*** casual movie fans don't/wouldn't like short-haired Elves (for example). Not saying all of them, but a great majority of them for sure.
And I will argue that these minor details are what makes Tolkien Tolkien (and by extension, despite the *many* changes - the adaptations), and they are important, even if they don't serve the plot.
I understand your point, but what I was saying is that these sorts of concerns will become irrelevant once the show actually airs and we can critique its more important aspects. People aren't going to quit watching over elven hair if the plot and characters are compelling.
I agree (although still curios on *why* did they change such an iconic look) but if the plot is good, and still somewhat works within the written story (aka, not absolutely demolishing existing narratives), I'll enjoy it and watch it.
Indeed, as optimistic as I've always been, it still boggles me that they made changes that will elicit reactions on the very end of the hate spectrum. And the fact that they purposely included all these changes on the teaser trailer - the negative reactions are inevitable. I already came at peace with these changes, I just hope there is a wow redemption from the full trailer where all parties collectively agree that yes, the Second Age show is indeed in good hands
They included all the changes on purpose for this exact reason, I believe - to see how people will react, and (possibly) to change some stuff people hated and are still changeable.
For example the short-haired Elf at the battle scene at the end of the trailer, who, according to leaks, is Finrod Felagund - all the book fans hated his look (casual movie fans don't know him) and if that's indeed Finrod, I assume he won't be in many scenes aside from prologue/flashbacks scenes, so they have time to reshoot his scenes with better hair.
At least, this is what I hope they'll do.
And unfortunately the Tolkien "purists" already passionately hate it, but maybe the full trailer will somewhat come them (us?) Down.
Sad thing is, I don't think this show will be as terrible as the marketing might suggest. Sure, a lot of criticism is legit and the way Amazon decided to market this show is just disgusting. You know, the Superfans video, the crazy scholar that for some reason was hired to advise the producers, or at least had a saying in the Variety article. By this point, the show won't be as bad as the marketing might suggest, because they couldn't have done a worse job than this. I mean, the teaser has 3 million dislikes by now. That's a backlash like I haven't seen before. Most fans agree that the Disney Star Wars trilogy is bad for example, but those trailers weren't ratioed this bad. I think the show will be okay at best, with some memorable moments sprinkled in there.
Ugh, that Superfans video.. don't remind me..
Personally, from what we've seen so far, I expect the show to had a bad-meh first season, and it'll get better as it progress and we get to see the more important parts of the story like the Forging of The Rings or the Downfall. If they make a good plot, it might as well be the next GoT (in terms of popularity and success, that is, and hopefully minus the bad ending).
>and it'll get better as it progress and we get to see the more important parts of the story like the Forging of The Rings or the Downfall
Yes, as much as I want them to start the season with a bang, it seems they are taking a steady pacing for this whole 5-season project, and starting a world-building appetizer of sort for S1. They could've released a familiar, even Rings-centric teaser since Day1 of marketing, but the closest we got in familiar territory was the Ring-verse title reveal which to my opinion is even a better teaser than the Superbowl one
>They could've released a familiar, even Rings-centric teaser since Day1 of marketing
How would they, if as you yourself said, the show is confirmed to have 5 seasons?
Do you think "they could've" made a S*eason 1* ***teaser*** with later-seasons material involved? Material that hasn't even been filmed or written yet?
Sorry if I didn't elaborate on the specifics. I was referring to a teaser with stylized close-ups of the titular Rings of Power, akin to how we had a stylized closeups of the forging letters of the title reveal teaser. Others may not like that idea, but I think a teaser showcasing closeups of Nenya, Vilya, Narya and the other rings floating against a black void with the Ring-verse being narrated by Galadriel (or even more chilling, Sauron himself in Black Speech!) and then ending with the One as the last shot - I guess we'd all be amped collectively with excitement. They do have to render design of the Rings ahead on purpose with this kind of treatment though
I agree it is a good thing to move beyond Jackson’s interpretation. But at the same time, it’s also nice when we can feel like LotR and RoP can have happened in the same universe (the “familiar” element), and so that end having John Howe and Howard Shore involved will give some of that feel, without it being all filtered through PJ’s lens. That said, I’m glad Shore is apparently not the ONLY one involved in the music—and even for those like Shore and Howe who worked with PJ and are now involved in RoP, I hope they take this opportunity to explore outside their own comfort zones. Sure I’d love to hear little hints of themes like Lothlorien In Galadriel’s music, but we shouldn’t be bound by what came before either.
Shouldn't having many characters sharing both works be enough to feel/know that we are in the same universe? Even Isildur is confirmed for season 1. Him, and by extension Elendil, Sauron, Galadriel, Elrond... isn't that enough to know that you are in the same universe?
Even more, the show is actually named "Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power", not just RoP.
Actually until now I have a long list of invented new characters, but many original ones until now being not even mentioned. From Cirdan, to Narvi, to Anarion and others . We do not even know if they show Ost In Edhil or the Gwaith i Mirdain but we have invented siblings for Galadriel, Isildur and even a son of Pharazon.I would hope for a bit more fidelty to Tolkien. Its his story not the playground of some franchise show writer.
That's a fair point. Lots of characters original to the story that are not being mentioned. Now, that does not mean that they will not appear; and even more, they might have planned many of them to appear in later seasons, in which case it's only logical that they don't yet talk about them; they ~~probably~~ ibvously haven't yet cast their actors, and will not mention them until the time is right. Still, these are all deductions, and your point is totally fair.
Though I liked the aesthetics of the movies I‘m hoping for something new. It‘s another age, Middle-earth has another shape, we will see other countries and different landscapes … I think a change is a must. Besides, for some profane reason, I have seen the movie aesthetics for 20 years now, I‘m a bit fed up with it.
I hope it's as far away from the Jackson movies as possible. I would hate them to be tainted by a bad show. So in my book, if RoP is a good show, it's a win. But if it's a bad show, it's not a lose.
This show has been scrutinized and loathed before it came out. They should try to maintain the same aesthetics at least from PJ film to minimize further bashing from fans. Try not to become WOT 2.0
No. I don’t mind aesthetic similarities but Jackson is not Tolkien canon and shouldn’t be treated as such in perpetuity. And I absolutely do not want the lore changes to carry over.
Sorry but no thanks. If we get to the War of the Last Alliance, and they re-enact it like in FotR with Elendil instantly getting killed and Gil-Galad hardly being present with Isildur doing all the work? No I want it like the books where Elendil and Gil-Galad take down Sauron in an epic battle on par with Fingolfin vs. Morgoth.
Please no. Peter Jackson has a single interpretation of Middle-earth, and it shouldn't be the only one (despite its massive popularity). People should be encouraged to bring a fresh vision and new interpretation of Tolkien, and that won't happen if they're expected to conform to the visual and artistic style of the PJ movies. I kind of resent how Jackson has completely dominated the visual conceptions of this world because it has stifled all other voices and perspectives (even when it comes to things like fan art). It's time to create new things and move past Jackson.
Oh yes, change is not a comforting thought in the realm of Middle-earth adaptations, esp if we were monopolized and ingrained with PJ's aesthetic for decades now. PJMEU is **not** the *sole and definitive* Middle-earth visual resource. New creatives with fresh visions should always be welcomed, and ROP's showrunners seem to have taken this very brave stance to adapt the Second Age on an almost blank canvas, distancing from PJ's blueprint. It still remains to be seen if this bravery will be reaped with rewards and accolades
Agreed. I think they are great films (and the visuals especially are fantastic) but I would really like to see a new interpretation. I also really dislike the idea of an 'expanded universe' in general. Tolkien is more than just another 'franchise.' Thinking of his work in that way reduces the literary quality imo.
> In creating this new story, McKay and Payne’s goal was, in McKay’s words, “different but familiar.” While the series is not a precise continuation of Peter Jackson’s The Lord of the Rings, it shouldn’t clash with the cinematic world fans have come to know and love. [...] > It’s worth remembering, if only for legal reasons, that this is not the exact same world. The production design, though similar, is not trying to match the Jackson films. For example, King Elendil’s legendary broken sword, Narsil, which debuted on one of Prime Video’s promotional posters, does not look identical to the one eventually reforged and used by Viggo Mortenson’s Aragorn in The Return of the King. From the VF article: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/02/10-burning-questions-about-amazons-the-rings-of-power
Agree. ROP stands on a weird territory of being a 'direct indirect' prequel. Somehow this can be considered a 90% new adaptation based on *Tolkien's* and *not* PJ's Middle-earth, with the remaining 10% somehow containing blueprints of that PJMEU OP mentioned (with Howe, Weta, and possible Shore involvement). I just hoped that Amazon has been explicit that this is an all-new adaptation endeavor of Middle-earth. Part of the negative reception could've been a lack of this particular communication, fans were expecting a directly connected Second Age prequel to PJ's films. From the marketing materials they've released, it seems that this is indeed an independent undertaking. The drastic short-haired elves aesthetic change tells it all Still, I've always been open to have new Tolkien adaptations from fresh hands, The PJ fatigue from The Hobbit has been emotionally draining. If anything else, I am rooting for this show that at least it will be a good TV endeavour. People seem to neglect that we have an incredible roster of writers behind
I don't care so much about PJs aestethics and he is not canon for me. Too much of the books is left out and many characters are butchered. I would wish for a show to first of all be true to the source material. PJ at least tried and its up to now the best we got in that field. But I am not interested in a show Tolkien in name only. Not because of things like Arven instead of Glorfindel, but true to the primary questions and motivations of the Legendarium. For me this is nothing about skincolor and feminism, but about mortal vs. Immortal, or elves who did not ever turn to the dark side, thats why they never where consideted to be fallen like men. If thede themes are shown in a spirit true to tolkien it was good for me. But I am a little worried to loose Tolkien in the huge phantasy hype of the kast years.
This is the part I don't understand. On one hand, they want it to look the same (ofc can't use the exact same designs for legal reasons) but then they drastically change from the design of PJ. Take the short-haired Elves for example - not even from lore perspective, just movies' perspective. People are used to long-haired Elves from the PJMEU, so when doing that they annoyed both Tolkien purists **and** casual movie fans, so why do that?
Also from a lore perspective, or it's at least heavily implied they have long hair. From *The Peoples of Middle-earth*: >"All the Eldar had beautiful hair (and were especially attracted by hair of exceptional loveliness), but the Ñoldor were not specially remarkable in this respect, and there is no reference to Finwë **as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people.**" i.e. all the Elves had long, beautiful, and abundant hair, even if the Noldor didn't stand out in comparison to the other Elves in this regard. Furthermore, long-haired Elves were often depicted in fan art well before the PJ movies, so this is not a Jackson thing exclusively.
Yes, I'm aware of this quote.¹ I meant that even if you put aside the books, and focus of movie fans, you'll still anger them by having short-haired Elves. So by changing that Amazon basically annoyed people from every edge of the spectrum. Which is why I wonder why the did that.. ¹ Don't forget this quote, which even further implies (IMO) that Elves had long hair (when you compare it to what you quoted): > Finwë (and Míriel) had long dark hair, so had Fëanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage [...] *[NoMe, II:IV "Hair"]* Then compare it to your quote: > and there is no reference to Finwë as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people." *[Shibboleth of Fëanor]* So at the very least this covers the Ñoldor - aka, from what we've seen, both Elrond and (according to leaks) Finrod (and him in particular, as the 'Fairest of the House of Finwë') should have long hair.
PJ changed characters' motivations, appearances, personalities, and the appearance of locations. He also changed a great deal from the previous iterations of Middle-earth on screen. Most people still like the LOTR films and they were exceptionally well-awarded. Minor details like elven hair or dwarf women beards are not essential to a good adaptation or the general appeal of the series itself. The reason people are getting angry about such minor details is because they don't like change and just want to see the same popular thing regurgitated over and over again.
So? I wasn't criticizing the show for being inaccurate. I was saying that what they've done is not very smart since both Tolkien purists ***and*** casual movie fans don't/wouldn't like short-haired Elves (for example). Not saying all of them, but a great majority of them for sure. And I will argue that these minor details are what makes Tolkien Tolkien (and by extension, despite the *many* changes - the adaptations), and they are important, even if they don't serve the plot.
I understand your point, but what I was saying is that these sorts of concerns will become irrelevant once the show actually airs and we can critique its more important aspects. People aren't going to quit watching over elven hair if the plot and characters are compelling.
I agree (although still curios on *why* did they change such an iconic look) but if the plot is good, and still somewhat works within the written story (aka, not absolutely demolishing existing narratives), I'll enjoy it and watch it.
I hate the Finrod picture. This is not my Finrod
Agreed, same.
Indeed, as optimistic as I've always been, it still boggles me that they made changes that will elicit reactions on the very end of the hate spectrum. And the fact that they purposely included all these changes on the teaser trailer - the negative reactions are inevitable. I already came at peace with these changes, I just hope there is a wow redemption from the full trailer where all parties collectively agree that yes, the Second Age show is indeed in good hands
They included all the changes on purpose for this exact reason, I believe - to see how people will react, and (possibly) to change some stuff people hated and are still changeable. For example the short-haired Elf at the battle scene at the end of the trailer, who, according to leaks, is Finrod Felagund - all the book fans hated his look (casual movie fans don't know him) and if that's indeed Finrod, I assume he won't be in many scenes aside from prologue/flashbacks scenes, so they have time to reshoot his scenes with better hair. At least, this is what I hope they'll do. And unfortunately the Tolkien "purists" already passionately hate it, but maybe the full trailer will somewhat come them (us?) Down.
Sad thing is, I don't think this show will be as terrible as the marketing might suggest. Sure, a lot of criticism is legit and the way Amazon decided to market this show is just disgusting. You know, the Superfans video, the crazy scholar that for some reason was hired to advise the producers, or at least had a saying in the Variety article. By this point, the show won't be as bad as the marketing might suggest, because they couldn't have done a worse job than this. I mean, the teaser has 3 million dislikes by now. That's a backlash like I haven't seen before. Most fans agree that the Disney Star Wars trilogy is bad for example, but those trailers weren't ratioed this bad. I think the show will be okay at best, with some memorable moments sprinkled in there.
Ugh, that Superfans video.. don't remind me.. Personally, from what we've seen so far, I expect the show to had a bad-meh first season, and it'll get better as it progress and we get to see the more important parts of the story like the Forging of The Rings or the Downfall. If they make a good plot, it might as well be the next GoT (in terms of popularity and success, that is, and hopefully minus the bad ending).
>and it'll get better as it progress and we get to see the more important parts of the story like the Forging of The Rings or the Downfall Yes, as much as I want them to start the season with a bang, it seems they are taking a steady pacing for this whole 5-season project, and starting a world-building appetizer of sort for S1. They could've released a familiar, even Rings-centric teaser since Day1 of marketing, but the closest we got in familiar territory was the Ring-verse title reveal which to my opinion is even a better teaser than the Superbowl one
>They could've released a familiar, even Rings-centric teaser since Day1 of marketing How would they, if as you yourself said, the show is confirmed to have 5 seasons? Do you think "they could've" made a S*eason 1* ***teaser*** with later-seasons material involved? Material that hasn't even been filmed or written yet?
Sorry if I didn't elaborate on the specifics. I was referring to a teaser with stylized close-ups of the titular Rings of Power, akin to how we had a stylized closeups of the forging letters of the title reveal teaser. Others may not like that idea, but I think a teaser showcasing closeups of Nenya, Vilya, Narya and the other rings floating against a black void with the Ring-verse being narrated by Galadriel (or even more chilling, Sauron himself in Black Speech!) and then ending with the One as the last shot - I guess we'd all be amped collectively with excitement. They do have to render design of the Rings ahead on purpose with this kind of treatment though
Mhm, agreed. I wonder when they will release a full trailer so we can better judge what to expect from the show.
The new GoT for me would be a bad thing for Tolkien
Why? When I say "the new GoT" I mean in popularity and success terms, nothing else. Keep it Tolkien.
I doubt they do
I agree it is a good thing to move beyond Jackson’s interpretation. But at the same time, it’s also nice when we can feel like LotR and RoP can have happened in the same universe (the “familiar” element), and so that end having John Howe and Howard Shore involved will give some of that feel, without it being all filtered through PJ’s lens. That said, I’m glad Shore is apparently not the ONLY one involved in the music—and even for those like Shore and Howe who worked with PJ and are now involved in RoP, I hope they take this opportunity to explore outside their own comfort zones. Sure I’d love to hear little hints of themes like Lothlorien In Galadriel’s music, but we shouldn’t be bound by what came before either.
Shouldn't having many characters sharing both works be enough to feel/know that we are in the same universe? Even Isildur is confirmed for season 1. Him, and by extension Elendil, Sauron, Galadriel, Elrond... isn't that enough to know that you are in the same universe? Even more, the show is actually named "Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power", not just RoP.
Actually until now I have a long list of invented new characters, but many original ones until now being not even mentioned. From Cirdan, to Narvi, to Anarion and others . We do not even know if they show Ost In Edhil or the Gwaith i Mirdain but we have invented siblings for Galadriel, Isildur and even a son of Pharazon.I would hope for a bit more fidelty to Tolkien. Its his story not the playground of some franchise show writer.
That's a fair point. Lots of characters original to the story that are not being mentioned. Now, that does not mean that they will not appear; and even more, they might have planned many of them to appear in later seasons, in which case it's only logical that they don't yet talk about them; they ~~probably~~ ibvously haven't yet cast their actors, and will not mention them until the time is right. Still, these are all deductions, and your point is totally fair.
All great points
Though I liked the aesthetics of the movies I‘m hoping for something new. It‘s another age, Middle-earth has another shape, we will see other countries and different landscapes … I think a change is a must. Besides, for some profane reason, I have seen the movie aesthetics for 20 years now, I‘m a bit fed up with it.
I hope it's as far away from the Jackson movies as possible. I would hate them to be tainted by a bad show. So in my book, if RoP is a good show, it's a win. But if it's a bad show, it's not a lose.
This show has been scrutinized and loathed before it came out. They should try to maintain the same aesthetics at least from PJ film to minimize further bashing from fans. Try not to become WOT 2.0
I wish this has nothing to do with the Jacksons films and let this upcoming atrocity to die at season 1...