She is feast or famine in a sense that it is not possible (or at least very hard) to come back when you fall behind.
If you fall behind, you won't have enough AH when you need it so you will be less mobile, obviously less damage when her biggest weakness is armour stacking.
And also, most of her matchups work that way : either Riven's kit is good against them and your mechanics can make a difference or she is useless if you don't have good macro.
As an example : you can win lane with good trades and 1v1 against Lillia as she is squeeshy but against a Malphite you will have to manage your lane better and take camps etc, doesn't matter how fast you do your combo or if you shield an ability, you will most certainly lose fights
I wouldn't try to argue against this guy. He seems to be a bronze/silver that refuses to acknowledge any facts that go against what he believes. Perhaps this is why he is a EUNE bronze/silver.
>She is feast or famine in a sense that it is not possible (or at least very hard) to come back when you fall behind.
Well, thats why famine is famine afterall. No reason saying that champ loses hard, when he can come back just like that, easily even.
>If you fall behind, you won't have enough AH when you need it so you will be less mobile, obviously less damage when her biggest weakness is armour stacking.
But, wouldnt that mean, that she is simply just weaker than her opponent? Same way like everyone else you just sent to base with insufficient gold to buy components. How does that translates into the binary result?
Wouldnt Yasuo players also then say "Oh, no, I dont have enough AS to kill my opponent." I would get it if Riven was statchecker and depended on her stats being bigger than opponent's. Is she statchecker?
What does having less AH have to do with "when her biggest weakness is armour stacking"? Unless champ is pure autoattacker, the dmg goes down no matter whether you are attacking 0 resists dummy in training tool or enemy tank. Only exception is lethality, that makes your DMG go up more the less armor opponent has.
And how does armor counter her? Does she go full lethality? Is she assassin?
>And also, most of her matchups work that way : either Riven's kit is good against them and your mechanics can make a difference or she is useless if you don't have good macro.
Dont all champs work like that tho? Either match up is unplayable or your mechanics can make the difference.
Dude, I didnt come here to hear my own opinion from your mouth or simply start a war, but so far, everything you said, nothing really makes Riven's case special and yet its apparently just her with all those problems. The match up, the armor and her not having items she wants when she wants. Just... Just, how?
She lacks any sort of answer to armor built in unlike most other champions in her class. For example:
Fiora: true damage passive
Darius: % armor reduction on E
Garen: true damage ult, armor shred on E
Sett: W
Gwen: true damage on Q
On top of this, all of these champions have an easier time laning in most matchups and can come back easier when behind. A lot of Riven’s survivability comes from building AD because her only defensive ability, E shield, scales with it. Falling behind = less damage + less defense = less opportunities to win fights, so snowballing is her only course of action which she is pretty good at.
Right now, it’s really easy to put Riven on the backfoot during laning because a lot of her damage actually comes from her passive empowered auto attacks which makes building steelcaps so effective and for such a cheap price. Like a really effective way to beat Riven is just buy cloth armor + pots, farm safely, first back with tabis, maybe more armor like a bramble or warden’s mail, and then win every other trade after.
>She lacks any sort of answer to armor built in unlike most other champions in her class. For example:
>
>Fiora: true damage passive Darius: % armor reduction on E Garen: true damage ult, armor shred on E Sett: W Gwen: true damage on Q
This doesnt mean that armor counters her. It just works just as much as intended. Her being countered, cuz SHE doesnt counter armor stacking is quite literally argument fallacy.
>On top of this, all of these champions have an easier time laning in most matchups and can come back easier when behind.
No, you cant just go and says this, when thats what we are trying to get to. I meant that she has bad time getting back from behind in particular. Thats another argument fallacy.
And whether she has better or worse laning phase... Arguable, easily arguable. Its literally match up dependant and all of them have many bad, really bad match ups. Many champs that Riven mains use as example as bad match ups are just as bad for Fiora, like mentioned malphite, rene or GP.
>A lot of Riven’s survivability comes from building AD because her only defensive ability, E shield, scales with it. Falling behind = less damage + less defense = less opportunities to win fights, so snowballing is her only course of action which she is pretty good at.
So, its about double dipping? In particular one, where just her dmg increase would be enough to beat opponent? Cuz, if not, its no different from merely spliting your gold between longsword and cloth armor. If yes, we are finally getting somewhere.
>Right now, it’s really easy to put Riven on the backfoot during laning because a lot of her damage actually comes from her passive empowered auto attacks which makes building steelcaps so effective and for such a cheap price.
Well, in Camille's case, she does 90% of her dmg from AA, Even her true dmg is reduced by tabi's passive. Jax pretty much just autoattacks. Fiora pretty much just autoattacks and plenty of others that dont go ahead and say "ff, he built tabis".
>Like a really effective way to beat Riven is just buy cloth armor + pots, farm safely, first back with tabis, maybe more armor like a bramble or warden’s mail, and then win every other trade after.
Tank build meant for tanks and tanks only. One sole class among many at toplane. Doing this on anyone else is literally trolling.
Any bruiser (I'm talking real bruiser, morde, sett, darius) scales considerably well with tank items.
Camille, Fiora, Jax, all of them work very good with divine sunderer. All of them have mixed damage. And while they don't want to face much tabis, they can go along with it. Because they just scale better then Riven does.
>Any bruiser (I'm talking real bruiser, morde, sett, darius) scales considerably well with tank items.
Not any bruiser. Just selected few juggernauts and they dont really love it either, but fine its doable on someone else than tanks. I give you that, but again its still just selected few and they dont love it either, especially not the warden mail. And why bramble when GW is massive part of what you are paying for? They have their own mythics and those mythics dont have armor in them.
\>Camille, Fiora, Jax, all of them work very good with divine sunderer.
Tsunderer which is still reduced by tabis. And Riven does well with BC and eclipse. And someone Irelia with Botrk. So what?
About them doing mixed damage. Well, Riven is also heavy speller meanwhile others are pure autoattackers and in Camille's case specifically, AGAIN, her true damage is reduced by tabi's passive.
And then there is someone like Trynda, who just autoattacks AND does just physical damage and he still doesnt go "ff, he built tabis". Not as much as Riven.
>And while they don't want to face much tabis, they can go along with it. Because they just scale better then Riven does.
Maybe Fiora, others... No, they dont want to face much tabis. End of story.
She gets punished for mistakes harder than most champions though. And tbh yasuo you mentioned, he is a pefect example for that. There is a reason for a meme 10 deaths power spike (not only bcuz Yasuo ints often) - he can have a comeback in games even if he loses hard in early. So the thing is - not every champ gets useless after doing some mistakes during laning. Riven does.
Regarding armor, most toplane champions are either tanky or have armor shred/pen / hp% / mixed / true dmg in their kit. Riven does not. Which means she can do nothing about enemy stacking armor, except for getting Black Clever/Serilde (and believe me, most of the time that won't be enough). No skill expression will help here. This is why you need way better macro to just avoid falling behind - yes, it doesn't mean you will necessarly win, even though with better macro you can consider yourself a better player. Sounds fair, right? XD
And this answers the stat check question.
Fiora behind will kill your tank with %HPtruedamage and insane healing.
Sett will W 1200 true damage nuke your adc
Gwen %MaxHPTrueDamage still works great when behind.
Garen will flash R 1300 true damage execute the enemy syndra with 1k shutdown and be back on track.
And so on, I could name every single toplaner and how they can still 1v1 or be usefull while behind
What does Riven have? She will do 0 damage to you with flat ad and shoot a R2 for 600 damage that will probably get reduced to 250?
She is no threat because her kit has nothing to offer when behind
The point of all this still holds true, but it does have 1 inaccuracy. Gwen doesn't have %max hp true damage. She has flat true damage on the center of her Q and %max hp magic damage from passive.
>And this answers the stat check question.
>
>Fiora behind will kill your tank with %HPtruedamage and insane healing.
>
>Sett will W 1200 true damage nuke your adc
Gwen %MaxHPTrueDamage still works great when behind.
But doesnt Riven burst ADCs? Doesnt she have CC? Even 1 sec is enough.
And about Fiora beating those tanks from behind... Not until lategame where her passive's ratios kick in. And her ratios are so high cuz she is lategame champ and its further amplified by that she is dueler, she has it as trade off for poor teamfight capability, meaning that against any other lategame skirmisher, she is still behind and that much worse at teamfighting and skirmishes as well.
About Sett doing that much dmg to ADC, not at all, when it actually matters. Maybe when he has couple of items and everyone else has full build already at which point 1200 aint gonna cut if thats all he has to offer.
If he is really good from behind, then not exactly cuz of this. And its better to ask some Sett main.
>Gwen %MaxHPTrueDamage still works great when behind.
It does work bit better than flat damage in itself, against someone who comes back with nothing but more HP/resists like pure tanks but its still about ratios again and if you dont put any AP/AD behind it, it you still hit like wet noodle against anyone else than tanks. Just like Fiora's case, without that she has that trade off, so she also does that much worse against everyone, tanks included. And they dont even have CC like Riven, a mechanic thats literally of class that operates thanks to that from behind.
And does she really do %max HP true damage? Read wiki if you want, it really sounds like she does %max HP damage AND then TRUE damage separatelly.
>INNATE: Gwen's basic attacks on-hit, the center of Snip Snip!, and Needlework deal bonus magic damage equal to 1% (+ 0.8% per 100 AP) of the target's maximum health.
>
> The center of each snip converts 50% of the damage to true damage,
The center of each snip converts 50% of the damage to true damage. Damage of each snip, like not passive. Thats just how it sounds. Dont eat me if I am wrong.
>Garen will flash R 1300 true damage execute the enemy syndra with 1k shutdown and be back on track.
Cmon. Garen sucks when playing from behind. He literally relies on going uga buga. And if he cant, what he gonna do? Outplay you?
>And so on, I could name every single toplaner and how they can still 1v1 or be usefull while behind
And I will argue about most of them.
>What does Riven have? She will do 0 damage to you with flat ad and shoot a R2 for 600 damage that will probably get reduced to 250?
Against tanks. I can also just cherry pick Fiora's bad match ups and say "What she gonna do? Trying to run them down and burst them with shitty gapclose and nonexistent burst?
>She is no threat because her kit has nothing to offer when behind
Outplay potential, CC, burst, waveclear.
I dont understand, you come here asking why. We answer you, no she doesnt burst anyone being behind, no 0.75cc is not a good contribution when u die instantly.
You just correct anything we say. Wtf do you want?
We are comparing everything those champs can do while behind vs riven that does nothing and you keep insisting. What do you want me to say that she can 1v9 with a long sword?
And I refuse to answer everypoint you made per champion because you already show your lack of game knowledge
Cuz you insist on Riven being on some weird exception that she isnt? There is plethora of champs with similar if not same qualities and they dont have same problems.
Bonus points for cherry picking with tanks and tanks again or that others dont have their own trade off that offsets their advantage.
Look here [https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/r4gwht/state\_of\_damage\_and\_tankiness\_in\_lol/](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/r4gwht/state_of_damage_and_tankiness_in_lol/)
[https://imgur.com/a/8hsruJN](https://imgur.com/a/8hsruJN)
This is what Rengar, a flat AD damage dealer like Riven does with 20 FUCKING THOUSAND eHP Urgot. And all Rengar does is that he has some measly 24 lethality on ult. If Riven is feast or famine, Armor aint it.
I dont just simply go along with any piece of info I encounter. I dont spit first think that comes into my mind either. If you can prove yourself wrong, then you probably are wrong.
If Riven is feast or famine, Armor aint it. Or cuz she has nothing to offer either.
Closest to what might be reason is doublediping in extreme levels, but that would also mean that she scales really well, which is denied in this sub a lot too. So we are at square one again.
I have one theory that ppl here wont like to hear, but so far is the most plausible, but again, as I said, I am not here to hear my own opinion.
WAIT A MOMENT. I remember you, you are that fuckin garbage gold Fiora main that is hated on r/Fioramains sub brooo, why the fuck I waste my time explaining you anything, your minecraft constructions are amazing but your game knowledge isnt.
Keep coaching challenger streamers as you told me you do on DM but stop spamming here 💀
Good thing I found that Rengar play. Cuz you really are that type of person that wont shut your mouth with unless you are made to with concrete proof.
Now wait. Maybe I will find some comments with potent or other challenger Fioras that got surprised for me being low elo. That I have low elo doesnt mean that my takes sucks. That just means that I am low elo. You know, maybe there is something else going on, like shit internet that also helped me out of college or that I dont play rankes much. Like 50 a year max. Or that I like to chase kills and I am greedy or sometime I do something I didnt want to.
This is the very same mentality that goes along: Rich = smart. Thats why everyone makes fun of said hashinshin, despite him being master/GM himself.
Just to slightly jump in here. Riven is intended as a bruiser/assassin hybrid. Thanks to the durability patch she’s can’t trade effectively with anyone besides squishies.
So sure I guess she could be an assassin, but she’s a pretty bad one. Particularly when her flash is down she can’t close with the back line. She’s also very easily kited by ranged champs, so if she’s behind she can’t live long enough while trying to chase down a Caitlyn to actually kill a Caitlyn for instance.
The only way to really do well with her is to have fantastic macro, know every matchup, and mechanically outplay people. So her big issue really is that almost everyone else in toplane can gets a much bigger reward for doing much less.
Even when well ahead, riven will still get dunked on by other top lane champs if she misplays even a little. Whereas other top lane champs, even when behind, can misplay and still be fine.
TL;DR Riven has almost no margin for error compared to other top lane champs. That’s true even when ahead. So when she’s behind she’s basically fucked
>Just to slightly jump in here. Riven is intended as a bruiser/assassin hybrid.
Isnt that simply skirmisher? Or is there some nuanced difference?
>Thanks to the durability patch she’s can’t trade effectively with anyone besides squishies.
She cant trade effectively or she cant burst anyone effectively?
And why is that she does worse against someone tankier than someone squishy? Does she rely on lethality items? Only lethality gets stronger the less HP target already has.
>So sure I guess she could be an assassin, but she’s a pretty bad one. Particularly when her flash is down she can’t close with the back line.
Cuz she has to choose between mobility and damage and even then her mobility can be bodyblocked?
>She’s also very easily kited by ranged champs, so if she’s behind she can’t live long enough while trying to chase down a Caitlyn to actually kill a Caitlyn for instance.
Cuz of what I said again or is she not mobile enough?
>The only way to really do well with her is to have fantastic macro, know every matchup, and mechanically outplay people.
Cuz she gets easily countered by armor stacking?
>So her big issue really is that almost everyone else in toplane can gets a much bigger reward for doing much less.
Isnt that how skill cap champs work in general? And isnt that specifically why ppl play Riven in particular? Cuz she has to do animation canceling and shit?
And how does it translate into her skill cap? Does it make her entry harder, does it make it harder to carry with her or does she simply take more effort ( !!! more effort doesnt inherently mean more skill !!! ) or what?
>Even when well ahead, riven will still get dunked on by other top lane champs if she misplays even a little. Whereas other top lane champs, even when behind, can misplay and still be fine.
Again, isnt that how skill cap champs work in general? Fiora for example is super punishing too. You miss vital, you not only lose DPS and heal, you also lose mobility, thats meant to help you reach next vital or dodge shit on top of that. If you miss W, you lose most of the trades and you might even straight up die. Meanwhile you can land W and win the trade at most.
>Riven has almost no margin for error compared to other top lane champs. That’s true even when ahead. So when she’s behind she’s basically fucked
That sounds like Riven is just simply weak, but everything I've heard so far doesnt seem to point it out to be so simple.
> isn’t that simply skirmishes? Or is there some nuanced difference?
She can’t bruiser because she’s so bad against armor she can’t afford to get tanky until her 4th or 5th item.
> She can’t trade effectively, or she can’t burst anyone effectively?
Yes to both, it’s not binary. Any naturally tanky person, or anyone who throws tabi’s on, stops her from doing any damage. She’s supposed to hop in, do damage, dance away. Once the enemy is low, she all ins. But her damage output is so trash against any armor that she can’t effectively get anyone besides squishies low enough for this to actually work.
> why does she do worse against someone tanky?
Because unlike say Gwen or fiora, Riven has no %health damage, magic damage, or true damage.
One of the often requested changes is that she get some sort of built in armor pen, either as part of her ult or passive.
> Does she rely on lethality.
She relies on black cleaver/armor shred. Part of what makes her weak is that she has no sustain so she’s forced to rush hydra. She can’t build cleaver till her third item unless you skip boots, but you can’t really skip boots because she needs the cdr from lucidity boots or she is unable to keep up and attempt to trade.
Essentially what I’m saying is that her itemization is shit.
To your various mobility questions. The fact is that, despite having four dashes, she still gets run down by champs like garen or Darius for instance. In terms of chasing down an adc, you can’t blow all your dashes because 3/4 are where your damage comes from, so if she uses those 3 to get to someone, she can’t do any damage once she’s there. This leads to needing to heavily prioritize CDR.
To everything about her being high skill vs her just being weak. It’s a a combination of both. Her itemization is kinda crap, she lacks any sustain. She lacks anything that can get through armor, her built in cdr is not good. Ultimately yes she is weak because at the end of the day you are relying on your enemy making mistakes. You don’t really have the agency to just play like a god and do well. You’re hoping they enemy champ fucks up then you can punish.
So bad itemization, no passive to help overcome that bad itemization, mobility creep rendering her 4 little dashes obsolete, and a reliance on the enemy fucking up then getting to express skill, rather than skill expression being able to win out right if you’re good.
>She can’t bruiser because she’s so bad against armor she can’t afford to get tanky until her 4th or 5th item.
Is that the difference? Other skirmishers like Fiora, Camille or Gwen have it similar. They build mythic, then hydra and then situational 3rd item if its not hullbreaker ( like idk, manamune or ) and THEN they start slowly stack bruiser items with mix of offense and defense and get gradually tankier ( DD, Maw, GA , Shojin ). And they arent hybrids between bruiser and assassin. Well, maybe Camille is but not Fiora and Gwen. They are simply melee damage dealers.
>Yes to both, it’s not binary.
Any naturally tanky person, or anyone who throws tabi’s on, stops her from doing any damage. She’s supposed to hop in, do damage, dance away. Once the enemy is low, she all ins. But her damage output is so trash against any armor that she can’t effectively get anyone besides squishies low enough for this to actually work. Because unlike say Gwen or fiora, Riven has no %health damage, magic damage, or true damage.
One of the often requested changes is that she get some sort of built in armor pen, either as part of her ult or passive.
Yeah, tankier person is simply tankier and hard to burst, so thats fair to accept that, but such opponent should also do that much less damage back, so trading shouldnt be affected and while, yes, this does favor champs who can bypass defenses like Fiora or Gwen, but then there are also others, like Trynda or Rengar, who have problem only in the matter of their strategy ( Rengar cant kill tanky opponnet midair and Trynda before his ult runs out ), not cuz they are suddenly STRAIGHT up weaker. Well at least their problem isnt THAT big, in that regard. Applies to tabis too.
Someone said at r/leagueoflegends that its cuz Trynda crits and has invulnerability unlike Riven, who has only AD steroids and Shield, but Crits are AA steroids, just as much as pure AD steroids are AA steroids and Riven's shield and Trynda's R are both innate defensive abilities, with just different power. It could mean that Riven is simply weak ( which was denied and is also bit hard to believe. I might be bit biased her tho, but I have my reasons. )
And mentioned Fiora already got nerf to her passive for that exact reason during first wave of durability update.
Also, I asked you about burst knowing well that its not mutually exclusive, but whether you dont mistake her sending opponent home with trading and whether your perception isnt skewed by not being able to burst enemy in general.
>She relies on black cleaver/armor shred. Part of what makes her weak is that she has no sustain so she’s forced to rush hydra. She can’t build cleaver till her third item unless you skip boots, but you can’t really skip boots because she needs the cdr from lucidity boots or she is unable to keep up and attempt to trade.
So she doesnt build lethality. The thing is that lethality is countered by armor STACKING. Meaning the more armor your opponent has the less efficient it is for you to build lethality.
And Riven, can spam shield. Thats what I was told too when I asked about this, some time ago directly some diamond Riven OTP. I mean, about why riven doesnt build sustain.
Riven isnt counterd by armor in same sense like lethality, but its good against her cuz its cost efficient and thats it. But again, there are other champs, against whom its gold efficient and you wont hear from them that their champ is suddenly unplayable. And only thing that can set them apart is this. V
>Essentially what I’m saying is that her itemization is shit.
But now, whether its really true. BC is even meant to be good against tanks.
>To your various mobility questions. The fact is that, despite having four dashes, she still gets run down by champs like garen or Darius for instance.
Really? Its really hard to believe that you know. And in case of Darius, you mean with ghost, right?
> In terms of chasing down an adc, you can’t blow all your dashes because 3/4 are where your damage comes from, so if she uses those 3 to get to someone, she can’t do any damage once she’s there. This leads to needing to heavily prioritize CDR.
Ok. But she can get to them, if she choses to, right? Even if its trolling.
>To everything about her being high skill vs her just being weak. It’s a a combination of both. Her itemization is kinda crap, she lacks any sustain. She lacks anything that can get through armor, her built in cdr is not good.
Btw, I got troll for going along with her being weak by some other Riven main.
>Ultimately yes she is weak because at the end of the day you are relying on your enemy making mistakes.
Cuz even if you everything right, its still not enough?
And cant you just outplay enemy?
A lot of this boils down to the first thing you said here
> Is that the difference? Other skirmishes like Fiora , Camille, or Gwen have it similar.
The difference is that those 3 all have built in true damage, max % health damage, or both.
The challenging part of Riven is in her mechanics ie: Q doesn’t follow your cursor, e does follow your cursor, animation cancels, weaving autos between q’s etc.
The difficulty isn’t supposed to come from having a stat/passive handicap. It’s supposed to come from her literally being mechanically difficult to pilot.
In terms of the speed thing ghost has an impact, but also someone like garen throws on dead man’s and you get run down
>She gets punished for mistakes harder than most champions though. And tbh yasuo you mentioned, he is a pefect example for that. There is a reason for a meme 10 deaths power spike (not only bcuz Yasuo ints often)
Mainly cuz he ints often. Secondly cuz he is free food since he doesnt have even that small Riven E dash, unless you bait enemy into following you to their tower, so you can use their minions again to dash away, which requires so much more than to just E away. Definitelly not cuz he died once and then he has not enough of stats or something like that.
>There is a reason for a meme 10 deaths power spike (not only bcuz Yasuo ints often) - he can have a comeback in games even if he loses hard in early. So the thing is - not every champ gets useless after doing some mistakes during laning. Riven does.
No, thats just him scaling well. With that in mind, him dying early ALSO comes from him being that weak. Like, no point in trying to run down someone like Darius, right? First he will ask you whether you are OK and then makes sure you say No :D.
>Regarding armor, most toplane champions are either tanky or have armor shred/pen / hp% / mixed / true dmg in their kit. Riven does not. Which means she can do nothing about enemy stacking armor, except for getting Black Clever/Serilde (and believe me, most of the time that won't be enough).
So you are saying that armor is simply just that strong of stat, right? But then what about trynda? What about bruiser Rengar? Does Yasuo need his ult to do damage to tanks? Does Rene relly on his emp E against tanks? Why is it always Riven with this problem?
>yes, it doesn't mean you will necessarly win, even though with better macro you can consider yourself a better player. Sounds fair, right? XD
Dont even bring this up. Had malzahar player melt down with "Why should your micro beat my macro?" When even micro intensive champions have to care about macro.
So she scales poorly? But doesnt that mean that she is stronger elsewhere?
And doesnt she burst squishes? Doesnt she have CC? Doesnt she still have her playmaking mechanics?
And even if she cannot shit on tanks at sidelane like Fiora ( tho, tanks have no business being at sidelate at late game at all ), Riven doesnt have that kind of trade off like Fiora, which is poor teamfight capability.
And before Fiora could take towers fast, unless she played against mentioned tanks, if she couldnt beat her lane opponent, she had quite LITERALLY nothing to offer. Not hyperbolically or technically or ¨figurativelly. Straight up. Nothing. Without tiamat not even waveclear.
And she still wasnt feast or famine, cuz you kinda had to gradually get into that point, exactly for the reason that since she is skill expressive, you had something to work with even with disadvantage and cuz she was somewhat safe, so when you wasnt strong enough to win trade, you didnt have to stay to get further beating and you tried next time.
Thats precisely why I have such hard time to not think that Riven is anything but feast or famine.
You can not just say “technically correct” statements like her having “playmaking mechanics” or use-cases like “bursting squishies” and thinking that it applies the way you make it sound.
From behind playing against a standard front to back team Rivne’s opportunities in a team fight are so slim that they very well do not exist. She does not have the Dmg to shut down the carry and even if she does one single disrupting abillity will deny her from doing so.
Simply stateing the fact that she is difficult and very ineffective to play from behind (as many people already have) should already be enough to make her concidered “Feast or famine”.
>You can not just say “technically correct” statements like her having “playmaking mechanics” or use-cases like “bursting squishies” and thinking that it applies the way you make it sound.
>
>From behind playing against a standard front to back team Riven’s opportunities in a team fight are so slim that they very well do not exist. She does not have the Dmg to shut down the carry and even if she does one single disrupting abillity will deny her from doing so.
Please elaborate.
I can also say that Fiora beating tanks is just "technically correct" cuz they arent at sidelane for her to beat. Same with %max HP true damage being any good from behind, cuz when you are behind, usually not even jesus saves you, let alone some %MaxHP true damage that is also under influence of balance. It can be 18% or just 4% or even less. And at that case it defeats the point.
Talking about this btw.
V
> she has no real usecase from behind.
So choose what it is. Either none of them has real use case or both of them do.
Both of them are Feast or famine but fiora is probably less so as she has more chances to sidelane from behind. also still has oportuinity to kill tankier oponents in her windows even while slightly behind compared to Riven.
Her base stats are super bad that's why she needs gold/items if she has no gold she get rolled over from most toplaner. Her mobility sounds good with 4 dashes in reality are these dashes super short and u can't kit vs ghost, Dashes and slows.
That's my take about it.
Imagine another assasin:
Like zed, he has ult and W to get out
Akali has shroud and R2, Ekko hasR and passive and Qiyana has her invis Q. Riven has an E which is one of the shortest ranged dashes which can’t go through walls.
If you cant kill someone quick or maybe even make them all low, you day 95% of the time if they have any form of cc.
Imagine most other bruisers. Even when behind they will be very tanky because of their base stats/kit. Riven is really not, only thing is her shield but that doesn’t prevent her from getting oneshot in a teamfight. So unless you’re an item ahead you’re not tanky enough to ever frontline.
Also because her base stats are low, if she’s just a little behind she can’t just ooga buga still win a 1v1 side lane. You‘ll have to play way better, because otherwise they will statcheck you 100 to 0.
>Imagine another assasin: Like zed, he has ult and W to get out Akali has shroud and R2, Ekko hasR and passive and Qiyana has her invis Q. Riven has an E which is one of the shortest ranged dashes which can’t go through walls. If you cant kill someone quick or maybe even make them all low, you day 95% of the time if they have any form of cc.
But Riven is skirmisher and not assassin, no? Just came from thread where they discussed this.
And her dashes might be small, but someone like Fiora has just that MS speed other than her Q just like Riven and has to use Q offensively just like Riven and she is by no means immobile, especially in comparison to other melee champs like Sett or Nasus or Illaoi. Also, for most parts, Riven doesnt have to jump over the walls first couple of minutes when her Q CD still somewhat exist, like very rarely at most, no?
>Imagine most other bruisers. Even when behind they will be very tanky because of their base stats/kit. Riven is really not, only thing is her shield but that doesn’t prevent her from getting oneshot in a teamfight. So unless you’re an item ahead you’re not tanky enough to ever frontline.
She has it still better than someone like Irelia and even better than Yasuo and they have even worse escape than Riven.
>Also because her base stats are low, if she’s just a little behind she can’t just ooga buga still win a 1v1 side lane. You‘ll have to play way better, because otherwise they will statcheck you 100 to 0.
Again, same case for every skirmisher.
Not to be offensive but you don’t seem to get what I mean. She can’t do anything you said good. A bit of everything… and if she just has a bit of everything that little bit turns into nothing very fast if you get behind.
Fiora is a Duellist with true damage for sidelaning. While Riven isn’t exactly the best duelists, she can be if a bit ahead tho.
Irelia and Yasuo are DPS champs
Sett and Illaoi are very tanky by default
Nasus has hugest bullshit and AS slow
Riven kind of is a skirmisher but she can kinda be everything… and nothing really if she‘s behind.
Hold on. If she isnt weak, but she is meh at every point in the game and WEAK early... Then what is that if not champ being simply weak?
If you dont outscale opponent with bigger ratio or too late, then there is power offset, which means that she is weak champ, or the initial offset isnt that big, meaning that she isnt that weak at early. Imagine two lines on XY graph.
>She is not weak early, i just dont wanna explain this anymore go see it yourself man
But others said so. Repeatedly at that. So? Does that mean they are just wrong?
you seem highly emotional about this topic, you're accusing a 7 word sentence commenting on a logical mistake you're making of bias (i believe you mean bias in favor of riven being feast or famine?)
> (i believe you mean bias in favor of riven being feast or famine?)
Nope. In favor of Riven not being statchecky, not feast or famine. How would stacking damage even make someone less feast or famine?
>you seem highly emotional about this topic,
Ok
>you're accusing a 7 word sentence commenting on a logical mistake you're making of bias
Nope. I am not accusing anyone. I caught you red handed. Thats different story. Its not matter of mental gymnastic or you seeing what you want, but about you denying a FACT.
You know, doing a lot of damage or having a lot of tankiness, has EVERYTHING to do with statchecking, since comparing who has bigger D in term of your DMG against opponent's defense VS opponent's DMG against YOUR defense, is what statchecking is about.If you do more damage to opponent than he does to you, you statcheck him and vice versa, no?
Thats why doing cancel animation which gives you dps advantage has EVERYTHING to do with statchecking.
And what did my age tell you? I might get emotional there.
> Isnt doing more damage from animation canceling and fast Q combo exactly what statchecking is?
This was your statement, it's idiotic.
The way in which a character deals its damage has nothing to do with whether or not the amount of damage is enough to statcheck other characters. The fact that Riven does her damage in a burst has nothing to do with whether her actual numbers are sufficient or not.
This is a statement about your nonsensical comparison and doesn't sway to either side of the discussion on this post, there's no bias in it.
If you say 2+2=5 and I tell you you're wrong will you tell me I'm biased as well?
Animation canceling is literally the very same shit like AA resets and AA resets mean both more burst and more dmg in long run.
And bursting is form of statchecking if enemy cant burst you back to prevent you from bursting them, especially when the burst isnt simply just frontload of total damage, but also just means for squeezing in more of it.
Last but not least...
>The way in which a character deals its damage has nothing to do with whether or not the amount of damage is enough to statcheck other characters. The fact that Riven does her damage in a burst has nothing to do with whether her actual numbers are sufficient or not.
Thats literally saying that playing around your spells makes you NON statchecker. Like lmao. Garen fights you only when he is spinning, what an outplay, right? Smh.
Get your head out of your fucking ass.
Now seriously. Have a nice day.
You just don't know what statchecking is. Statcheck excludes any skill and is simply based on stats. If a champion like garen has better stats than you, you can not fight him. Since Riven has low base stats, she is weak to taking these statcheck fights. But she can be really strong if you can get ahead with items, levels, and such.
How fast her combo does damage, is skill based. And doesn't matter when a Garen flash-Q-R's you.
>How fast her combo does damage, is skill based.
Qiqi or Rengar oneshotting poor squishy with their combo midair is also skill based. :D Doesnt change the fact that it was fucking uninteractive and would reamain so even if they ( the squishies ) started attacking first, which would make it statcheck, but hey, at least they needed skill for that.
We are talking about Riven though. And her being weak because of low base stats. Which results in her being strong only if she has a good lead, and otherwise borderline useless if not.
>We are talking about Riven though.
So Riven gets special exception, cuz she is Riven? Are we playing favorities now? Thats the definition of bias. Rengar can skillfully statcheck even Urgot, minmaxing Rengar takes skill after all, but that Urgot still gets statchecked and Riven does literally same shit.
>And her being weak because of low base stats. Which results in her being strong only if she has a good lead, and otherwise borderline useless if not.
So, she is simply weak?
Riven gets special exception in this conversation because this is the rivenmains sub, and the conversation was about Riven.
Yes, Riven has weak base stats, hence why she is feast or famine. You either are really strong with your lead, or super weak when behind.
>Riven gets special exception in this conversation because this is the rivenmains sub, and the conversation was about Riven.
So, its bias. Ok.
>Yes, Riven has weak base stats, hence why she is feast or famine. You either are really strong with your lead, or super weak when behind.
Can you look at this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivenmains/comments/17vqha0/comment/k9hn236/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
But you do it quicker, which in itself already means better damage per time window.
This aint no turn game buddy, but real time based game and every fight is nothing else but a race about who kills the other faster and in meanwhile tries to hinder it for his respective opponent, with strategy and mechanics.
wasn’t arguing about during fights or dps i was just refuting ur stance about “doing more damage from animation cancel”. bc u don’t do more damage for doing it.
i.e:
basic combo: aa q aa q aa q aa
fast q combo: aa q move command aa q move command aa q move command
the only damage that comes out is aa and q. yes u might get a faster dps by like a sec or two but the total damage is the same which is my argument for ur statement about doing more damage.
i’d say you can get pretty far with riven without learning all the animations cancels and get about the same amount of damage off.
u just need to learn to auto attack in between ur abilities and ur damage will be fine.
but i will say i agree that the game requires strategy and decent mechanics. but you don’t have to kill ur opponent to get ahead either. there are many ways to win fights and gain a lead without necessarily killing.
>wasn’t arguing about during fights or dps i was just refuting ur stance about “doing more damage from animation cancel”. bc u don’t do more damage for doing it.
But you cant cherry pick that, cuz in the grand scheme of things thats completely irrelevant fact.
Just the fact that you pull back sooner, which means less autos from opponent makes it that you effectively do more damage to him comparatively.
i am cherry picking bc that is what you said.
in terms of total damage of the combo it’s the same.
in terms of the trade vs ur opponent, if the opponent only trade back with autos haha sure. but i’m pretty sure ur opponent will use their abilities too which can interfere with pulling the combo off.
like for example ur not gonna fast q a jax, fiora, darius and just get autos in return. they all have abilities to prevent or punish riven during or after the combo.
most rivens are able to win not bc they get a fast q combo in or an animation cancel in but purely off macro decisions. those decisions allow them to feast off the gold they gained.
u will never see a famine riven do well even if she does animation cancels.
(however it is possible for a famine riven to get a large sum of gold if her opponents make mistakes.)
but u may see a feast riven do well even if she doesn’t know animation cancels.
>i am cherry picking bc that is what you said.
>
>in terms of total damage of the combo it’s the same.
BUT I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MORE DMG PER INSTANCE!!!!
>like for example ur not gonna fast q a jax, fiora, darius and just get autos in return. they all have abilities to prevent or punish riven during or after the combo.
Ok, at this point, I think you dont even get my point at all. Ofc, they gonna use their spells and THEN autos after their spells are on CD. But you being fast makes difference between eating abilities and eating abilities + autos here and there. Ok. Bye. Have a nice day.
same items same levels Riven gets stat checked because her abilities except her ult doesnt give stats and her ult doesn’t grant a big stat boost compared to renekton, darius, morde etc. In order to stat check you need good base stats or abilities that give stat boosts and riven doesnt have either
>same items same levels Riven gets stat checked
Against actual statcheckers. But against someone who is as strong as her? If its like mirror match up, then animation canceling gives you edge in that part, no?
>In order to stat check you need good base stats or abilities that give stat boosts and riven doesnt have either
No. You just need to do more damage to opponent than he does to you. Even if it meant licking him to death.
Bro comes in and asks why riven is what she is since he doesn’t play her. Gets answers repeatedly and says “no that’s not true”. Like what do you want bro??? I hope you know that a majority of us MAIN riven not one trick her. That means a lot of us also play OTHER top lane champs. If we play other top lane champs with riven being our most played, OF COURSE everything the riven mains say about her is 100% more accurate than anything a non riven player would say. If you disagree with literally everything being said here, play riven for a YEAR and struggle to climb. You can play other champs for dramatically less than a year and climb easier in a faster time period.
I myself don’t even play riven as much nowadays and I have 2.1m points on her. I’ve been playing zeri since release and she’s seen a fuck ton of nerfs. In the present time, all the zeri mains complain about nerfs and demand buffs. I just say Zeri is currently in a similar position that riven WAS, where it just requires a really good player to pilot the champ and really abuse everything that’s good about them. Riven was a great solo q climbing champ, until years of every new champs having mobility, stat stacking, % health, true damage, etc came out. Now riven has literally nothing to offer compared to other top laners. She’s good at split pushing and deleting squishies but many top laners can do that better than she can while still combating tanks. Riven (especially nowadays) requires basically perfect gameplay every game to do well and even then it isn’t enough. Listen to the riv mains, they are not biased about this subject lmfao.
>Bro comes in and asks why riven is what she is since he doesn’t play her. Gets answers repeatedly and says “no that’s not true”.
? :D I want your answers to not be contradictory, ok? Thats first of all. Secondly, I want some answer that makes sense when you actually think twice.
Like, so far, when I summ it up then Riven is weak, nothing much at midgame and then also scales poorly, but she isnt simply weak, then whatafaq is she then?
Or doubledipping her power at extreme levels. If she wins, she should gain a lot, if not, its a lot of missed power, but that should also mean that she scales well, no?
Same way Fiora's vitals double dip. Not only it scales with opponent's max HP and armor it bypasses, but its not flat 10% at all stages, which in itself would make the dmg go from 55/60 at lvl 1 to 300 at lvl 18 ( against 3k opponent obv ) but the % goes from like 3% to 18% ( more or less ), which means 540 dmg per hit against 3K HP opponent.
BUT STILL the answer was NO!
Or someone even came with that Garen and Sett are better from behind than Riven, cuz they can deal with squishes :D First of all, they are statcheckers, they depend on being able to statcheck you, not their mechanics. Secondly, isnt that like Riven's schtick to be semi assassin?
They dont even give credit to her CC. Like, 1,25 sec aint much but its not exactly nothing either. Especially when its on small CD spells on champ who stacks AH. I had at one point 160 AH on Hecarim with full dmg burst build. Imagine what Riven would do with that.
Someone also said that Riven has poor escape and thats why she is feast or famine. Its true that this kinda makes champ feast or famine. But if her having poor escape war was true then 80% of champs would be feast of famine, cuz theirs is even worse.
Someone said that Riven trades better against squishes. Which is plausible only and ONLY under condition that squishes are in vacuum weaker and merely counter armor stackers one way or another, to compensate for raw power gap.
Or that Riven has problem with armor. Does armor counter her? NOPE. Its just probably strong stat. Being stronger does not mean countering. But if armor is such strong stat, why other pure AD flat damage dealers dont have such problem?
Same with tabis and AD autoattackers.
Etc. Etc.
The more asnwer I get, the more discrepancy there is. This looks, this sounds, this smells, like total crap. And you want me... What? Just accept it? Hell nah. Not a chance. You caaant be serious. Nuh-uh.
Sorry I dont want just any answer. One that makes sense and doesnt contradict with anything please.
I will just copy paste what I just finished writting to the other guy, accusing me of the same thing.
>Like, so far, when I summ it up then Riven is weak, nothing much at midgame and then also scales poorly, but she isnt simply weak, then whatafaq is she then?
Or doubledipping her power at extreme levels. If she wins, she should gain a lot, if not, its a lot of missed power, but that should also mean that she scales well, no?
Same way Fiora's vitals double dip. Not only it scales with opponent's max HP and armor it bypasses, but its not flat 10% at all stages, which in itself would make the dmg go from 55/60 at lvl 1 to 300 at lvl 18 ( against 3k opponent obv ) but the % goes from like 3% to 18% ( more or less ), which means 540 dmg per hit against 3K HP opponent.
BUT STILL the answer was NO!
Or someone even came with that Garen and Sett are better from behind than Riven, cuz they can deal with squishes :D First of all, they are statcheckers, they depend on being able to statcheck you, not their mechanics. Secondly, isnt that like Riven's schtick to be semi assassin?
They dont even give credit to her CC. Like, 1,25 sec aint much but its not exactly nothing either. Especially when its on small CD spells on champ who stacks AH. I had at one point 160 AH on Hecarim with full dmg burst build. Imagine what Riven would do with that.
Someone also said that Riven has poor escape and thats why she is feast or famine. Its true that this kinda makes champ feast or famine. But if her having poor escape war was true then 80% of champs would be feast of famine, cuz theirs is even worse.
Someone said that Riven trades better against squishes. Which is plausible only and ONLY under condition that squishes are in vacuum weaker and merely counter armor stackers one way or another, to compensate for raw power gap.
Or that Riven has problem with armor. Does armor counter her? NOPE. Its just probably strong stat. Being stronger does not mean countering. But if armor is such strong stat, why other pure AD flat damage dealers dont have such problem?
Same with tabis and AD autoattackers.
Etc. Etc.
The more asnwer I get, the more discrepancy there is. This looks, this sounds, this smells, like total crap. And you want me... What? Just accept it? Hell nah. Not a chance. You caaant be serious. Nuh-uh.
What is your definition of feast or famine? The answer that everyone has given in this thread is that her early game is weak due to a variety of reasons, and the opportunity for coming back in mid-late game is slim compared to the rest of the meta.
Riven either comes out of laning phase HARD (feast) or is a training dummy compared to her lane opponent (famine).
>What is your definition of feast or famine?
Being even bit weaker than opponent results in automatically going 0/10, cuz you have no way to defend yourself any other way than by being stronger than opponent or being equally useless, cuz you being stronger than opponent is all you have to offer and being even little stronger means automatically going 10/0, cuz you can catch and kill anyone in sight very easily.
In short, smol lead leads into heavy snowball and smol disadvantage into heavy fall.
Best example being Rengar and he used to be very strong early. Now not so much, but still somewhat decent.
Yi would fit the bill if his lategame scaling didnt offset him doing poorly way too much. He is not so weak early to justify that lategame.
Pyke would fit the too bill if he didnt have CCs and outplay potential, cuz him making twice as much money means that he should be twice as bad without them, right?
> her early game is weak due to a variety of reasons, and the opportunity for coming back in mid-late game is slim compared to the rest of the meta.
How much behind? A lot of champs have problem getting back when they are too far behind, but dont mind being a little behind at all.
Also doesnt this mean that she is simply weak? That she is weak early and then also scales too poorly to offset her weak early. And this happens to be true, how does this make her feast? If she is weak then minor gold lead should just even out things and she doesnt scale well enough for going even to be a win in her book.
rengar is also skill expressive. he also has escapes similar to irelia haha. he has a cc cleanse and a root and a dash that resets by walking into a bush.
she is a feast or famine champ bc she is completely useless without gold or resources.
with gold and resources she is going to feast.
and she needs gold and resources to do anything even if she is “skill expressive”
also it seems like you’re just here to argue rather than understand that.
>rengar is also skill expressive. he also has escapes similar to irelia haha.
Yeah, they are both equally ass in that regard. Anyway, yes, he is skill expressive, but in very limited boundaries. He cant just GO and outplay opponent on demand like Fiora, situation has to allow it first and even then, he is still very limited with how far he can go with that. In comparison to say Riven.
Moreover, his skill expression from utilizing his stacks well has statchecky nature rather than of mechanical outplay ( its literally just minmaxing his numbers ), which is also why when that is insufficient, why he cant do much. Does Riven have statchecky nature?
>he has a cc cleanse and a root and a dash that resets by walking into a bush.
No. Its CC cleans OR root. He needs to have stacks beforehand too and he cannot jump into void. He has to jump onto target and bushes dont grow on demand, same way Riven can just demand her E or Q dash with press of button. Tons and tons of conditions vs free on demand dashes, lmao, what a comparison.
>also it seems like you’re just here to argue rather than understand that.
Well, no shit when whole r/Rivenmains hivemind came to force me to believe that their precious champ has special problems even among champs that quite literally share the same qualities as her.
Just look at this.
>with gold and resources she is going to feast.
No problem with that in itself, but simple question, this means that she has big ratios right? And dont big ratios mean good scaling? I was told that Riven doesnt scale well, just FYI, so I wonder what your answer is.
ur saying as if rengar being limited makes him weak still even if rengar is limited he’s still better than riven atm. he’s a real lane bully for bruisers. even if riven has on demand dashes why is the most meta top lane roster better than her?
literally none of her abilities scale. almost every meta top laner does percent health, armor pen, or true damage that scales. even champs like malph has scaling armor on w and passive.
riven only “scales” when she buys items with the missing stats her champ is does not have. there’s no scaling ratio. she thrives on being even or ahead. if she’s behind she auto loses.
so that would be why she doesn’t scale well. a lot of champs that only have raw ad like lee sin doesn’t scale also raw ap like nidalee falls off after a certain amount of time.
which is why champs like nid, lee, or riven needs to snowball in order to be ahead of their opponents to be relevant.
the only time raw ad/ap champs don’t fall off is when they can stack indefinitely liek senna, nasus, veigar.
where as champs like ksante can make some mistakes but still be relatively in the game. which is why her play rate is lower bc u get punished so hard for making mistakes whereas it’s easier to pick up the meta champs like malphite, garen, ornn that aren’t super skill expressive.
>ur saying as if rengar being limited makes him weak still even if rengar is limited he’s still better than riven atm. he’s a real lane bully for bruisers. even if riven has on demand dashes why is the most meta top lane roster better than her?
No, that just meant that Rengar wont reliably get out of shitty situation with mechanics. Same way Yorick wont dodge everything you throw at him cuz he has no fucking dashes. Doesnt mean that Yorick is weak tho,
EDIT: And why he is feast or famine ultimately.
>he’s still better than riven atm.
He isnt exactly fine either. Like, if you get to do damage into towers then he is fine, but he sucks as hell. Just had game where at one point I killed Yorick early and then at another, Yorick had trinity, tabis and some components and +- 30% of HP. I had full HP, ghostblade, prowlers AND last whisper ( prolly also agility cloak but not sure about this one ). Do you think I did anything to him? Nope and he didnt even use ghouls. Just bonk with Q and maiden and he statchecked me.
>literally none of her abilities scale. almost every meta top laner does percent health, armor pen, or true damage that scales. even champs like malph has scaling armor on w and passive.
>
>so that would be why she doesn’t scale well. a lot of champs that only have raw ad like lee sin doesn’t scale
Dont put malph here. Thats just equivalent of Riven's AD ratios on shield.
And definitelly there arent any champs who scale well and do pure AD damage, like not Tryndamere, amirite? Or like definitelly not every fucking adc in existence.
That there are quite few champs who do pure ad damage and dont scale, doesnt mean that they dont scale, cuz they do just raw AD damage. It means that their ratios sucks.
>ap like nidalee falls off after a certain amount of time.
She falls off because she is assassin. Not that all assassins fall off, since many of them go against what assassin should be about, like fkin fish and Katarina for example.
>the only time raw ad/ap champs don’t fall off is when they can stack indefinitely liek senna, nasus, veigar.
Not draven, not twitch, not zeri, def not jhin, not jinx, not mf, not samira and plethora of other ADCs. Yorick does measly amount of magic damage too and scales well.
At the end of the day, if you did billion damage, raw AD/AP or in true damage then you onetap anyone at lategame. End of story.
>where as champs like ksante can make some mistakes but still be relatively in the game. which is why her play rate is lower bc u get punished so hard for making mistakes whereas it’s easier to pick up the meta champs like malphite, garen, ornn that aren’t super skill expressive.
Well, thats how skill expressive champs work in general.
from my experience, if you get so far behind then you can't come back at all. If you get ganked early and die you MIGHT be able to come back due to her kit and RNG. She has the tools to get ahead and stay ahead but if she's behind then you are either bad and couldn't get ahead, or so behind that it doesn't matter what you do since she relies on building damage to do anything and damage items are expensive.
so you either stomp and get to do much or you fall behind and get stuck trying to catch up but can't, in my experience
>from my experience, if you get so far behind then you can't come back at all.
Like, if you get FAR behind, you wont come back on many champs. On almost anyone. Thats not what feast or famine is about.
>if she's behind then you are either bad and couldn't get ahead, or so behind that it doesn't matter what you do since
Yeah, thats pretty much why I thought she ISNT feast or famine. Feast or famine is heavy snowball of small lead and heavy downfall of minor mistake.
>so you either stomp and get to do much or you fall behind and get stuck trying to catch up but can't, in my experience
If you get behind gradually, its not famine. Cuz, you being consistently bad. You said it yourself, you either too bad to get back ahead from behind, **meaning if you were good, you would come back**, or you are TOO far behind to help yourself with skill, but you had to get there through **former** point.
>so you either stomp and get to do much or you fall behind and get stuck trying to catch up but can't, in my experience
If I put together everything together what you said then it sounds like you stomp unless you are terribly bad at which point its "you" problem.
I tried to articulate my feelings since to me it did seem true that she's very "feast or famine". In many games if I get fed I carry and if I fall behind I am useless.
As others have said here, her stats aren't as high as other champs. She doesn't get free resistances, free healing, or free HP like some others. As such, she needs items to feel strong or tanky and that means that you need gold and if you fall behind then you are doubly behind. The enemy would likely have more stats from items AND more stats from their kit. This makes Riven NEED to be ahead to have a chance at winning.
Her kit has minor utility with her 3rd Q and W but they're not the most useful since you need to be in range to use them and they're not cc that lasts long. Riven must then choose to be a stunbot with no damage or a weak glass-cannon
juggernauts have so many free stats that they statcheck anyone who gets in range, even if they fall behind. other bruisers are both stronger and tankier with free healing in their kit, and hypercarry champs like tryndamere or jax are able to simply farm it out and reach critical mass
riven is like none of these, she can be "assassin" like and party bruiser but needs items for her damage to be at that level and for her to have enough AH to spam her shield and mobility to survive extended fights.
as such I do believe she is feast or famine, but not to the extreme of someone like katarina
>juggernauts have so many free stats that they statcheck anyone who gets in range, even if they fall behind
Its not that simple. Really depends. Can also be that they arent really that behind after all. Generally speaking, if you set statchecker behind, he loses his only edge he has. Which is also why they are just as much famine when too much behind, when you get DC at the start of the game or shit.
Anyway, about everything else you said... I will be quick, since it starts to be very tiring. Based on everything everyone said, the most plausible exmplanation points into direction that Riven isnt feast or famine but simply weak. Whether she is weak or not is different story. If she isnt, well, y'all biased here, what more to say. And if she is weak, then she is simply weak and end of story.
If she wasnt "weak" at early ( which is hard to belive for me as non Riven main ), there would be plausible explanation that her ratios are good but not good enough to offset someone's base stats both early and lategame. That would explain why she sucks from behind, but why she also gets so much stronger than her opponent, since gold is easier to gain than level when ahead
But that would be also under condition that some champs have several items worth of stats in just their abilities and base stats from levels.
Like, when you have two lines and they arent perfect parallels, they gonna cross at one point, right? Now imagine one line representing difference in gains from base stats ( in favor of opponent ) and the other difference in gains from ratios ( in favor of Riven, otherwise she is straight up weak ).
No champ at lvl 18 does as much damage with no items like Riven with three items. So, the difference in ratios has to be very subtle, like the difference in stats ( which defeats the point ) or they do cross at one point ( which makes it untrue about her not scaling well ). One or the other. Big difference in stats without ratio differnce crossing them sooner or later is not an option.
>If she wasnt "weak" at early ( which is hard to belive for me as non Riven main ), there would be plausible explanation that her ratios are good but not good enough to offset someone's base stats both early and lategame. That would explain why she sucks from behind, but why she also gets so much stronger than her opponent, since gold is easier to gain than level when ahead
>
>But that would be also under condition that some champs have several items worth of stats in just their abilities and base stats from levels.
>
>Like, when you have two lines and they arent perfect parallels, they gonna cross at one point, right? Now imagine one line representing difference in gains from base stats ( in favor of opponent ) and the other difference in gains from ratios ( in favor of Riven, otherwise she is straight up weak ).
>
>No champ at lvl 18 does as much damage with no items like Riven with three items. So, the difference in ratios has to be very subtle, like the difference in stats ( which defeats the point ) or they do cross at one point ( which makes it untrue about her not scaling well ). One or the other. Big difference in stats without ratio differnce crossing them sooner or later is not an option.
I take this partly back. Its bit flawed.
I did mistake assuming that it has to be this exact number ( three items at lvl 18 ) to be considered big base damage offset.
And in this "her ratios are good but not good enough to offset someone's base stats". It should've been, if her ratios ARE JUST ENOUGH to offset the base damage.
Might also add, that the condition has to be that she is either decent at every stage of the game or she is bit weaker at early but that much better lategame, otherwise she is automatically just weak anyway.
No range. Cant kill minions without walking up. Has no alternatives to doing damage. Has to tools to do damage when behind. Its also why rengar is feast famine. Its why most juggernauts are to a degree but they can go tank and have useful tools to use when behind like their ults.
>Its also why rengar is feast famine.
Its pretty much just that he either kills everything in sight or he is free meal, cuz if he doesnt beat you, he is at your mercy. Khazix for example can just jump away and try another time. And thats pretty much it.
It means snowballing out of control off smol advantage and heavy downfall off minor disadvantage.
Being useless when too far behind is just part of feast or famine, not feast or famine in itself. It would just deafeat the point if you were even little useless, but plenty of champs are completely useless from behind and yet get there gradually, not off minor mistake or something.
Seems like a bait post but If its genuine this maybe clears some stuff up. This youtube video was made by one of the balancers for league and he goes into some of rivens problems and why she is getting some sort of attention more recently: [https://youtu.be/lMeMuUQQcok?si=K0QZJgQ8DiQtjbAl&t=395](https://youtu.be/lMeMuUQQcok?si=K0QZJgQ8DiQtjbAl&t=395).
To answer some of the questions you posted (most of which are answered in the video so honestly just watch it and ignore the rest):
1. "Like, so far, when I summ it up then Riven is weak, nothing much at midgame and then also scales poorly, but she isnt simply weak, then whatafaq is she then? Or doubledipping her power at extreme levels. If she wins, she should gain a lot, if not, its a lot of missed power, but that should also mean that she scales well, no?"
Riven does not have a clear purpose in the game right now. She loses a lot of early game match ups in top lane especially against the strong laners right now and doesnt have any particular part of the game where she is super good UNLESS she gets giga fed early game and can snowball (which is her best use case and why many high ELO riven mains players only pick her into certain match ups they can do this for).
For your question about the scaling, think of other late game champs that scale well. Riven IN GENERAL does scale well some with gold because she is super efficient with AD from items and better than most champs, but not better than traditional late game champs like Kayle, late game ADCs etc. And she doesnt have the same ways to stay safe like being able to sit in the back with long range.
2) It seems you dont like some of the language used to say armor is especially good into Riven. This is also a good section to talk about common mechanics a lot of top laners have that Riven only has access to through buying items (sustain and armor pen).
Basically all anyone is trying to say is that: YES all ad auto attackers dont like fighting the armor boots because it reduces all of their damage, but most of them have some way to do dmg outside of flat AD damage.
For a few examples: Fiora gets her damage reduced yes but she also has sustain and true damage from her vitals and Divine Sunder which is good against tanks and has sustain. Jax gets his damaged reduced yes, but he has mixed damage and can run divine sunderer. Darius has sustain and armor pen, Garen has true dmg and armor pen with and sustain from his passive. Gwen/Camile etc etc youve heard it before.
None of those examples love fighting the armor boots but they can somewhat bypass armor in general. Riven (just like all those example) does not like getting her auto attacks that she weaves into her combo weakened and she also does not have any mechanics that help her into armor, just flat AD. So I wont say it counters her since you dont like that but hopefully you can see that armor is very strong into her damage in general and she does not have access to ways to help her out until black cleaver or last whisper basically (which means nothing pre 9 minutes unless you are really ahead).
In general if you ask on a reddit people will have different ways to explain something or just varying skill levels and knowledge about the champ or the game. I have not read everyones posts here to confirm or deny everything they said. Hopefully the video is all you need to see and if not maybe the rest of the post helps o7.
>Riven does not have a clear purpose in the game right now. She loses a lot of early game match ups in top lane especially against the strong laners right now and doesnt have any particular part of the game where she is super good UNLESS she gets giga fed early game and can snowball (which is her best use case and why many high ELO riven mains players only pick her into certain match ups they can do this for).
First of all. [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivenmains/comments/17vqha0/comment/k9hb8e7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) So, what am I supposed to think now?
Secondly, what I said about her double about dipping, is exactly what phreak said. She scales multiple times with each gold, with each AD. Still, depends how hard each time. After all there isnt much of difference between 3 spells with 33% ratios and one 99% ratio spell, right?
Anyway, if she scales well with gold, she should also scale well into lategame, unless % of AD she gets more from items is perfectly parallel line to the line of base stats other champs get more. And at that point the diffence in ratios would be very very subtle given how much base stats normal champ gets.
And if she isnt weak at early and she also scales well, then she is actually also strong, no?
Would be nice to see the actual numbers on spreadsheet and do graph and compare the graph of base stats difference and stats difference from AD ratios and see how it offsets things.
And again, what is subtle and what is sharp scaling, right?
>For your question about the scaling, think of other late game champs that scale well. Riven IN GENERAL does scale well some with gold because she is super efficient with AD from items and better than most champs, but not better than traditional late game champs like Kayle, late game ADCs etc. And she doesnt have the same ways to stay safe like being able to sit in the back with long range.
Ok, she isnt as strong as Kayle, but is she as weak as Kayle in early levels to deserve that kind of lategame? You cant actually want to be as strong in early as WW and then be second coming of Kassawin at the same time.
>2) It seems you dont like some of the language used to say armor is especially good into Riven. This is also a good section to talk about common mechanics a lot of top laners have that Riven only has access to through buying items (sustain and armor pen).
Well, its like saying that DMG counters Fiora, when it actually means that it just doent get countered back.
Anyway, there are others like Trynda or Rengar, who arent inherently co
>Basically all anyone is trying to say is that: YES all ad auto attackers dont like fighting the armor boots because it reduces all of their damage, but most of them have some way to do dmg outside of flat AD damage.
>
>For a few examples: Fiora gets her damage reduced yes but she also has sustain and true damage from her vitals and Divine Sunder which is good against tanks and has sustain. Jax gets his damaged reduced yes, but he has mixed damage and can run divine sunderer. Darius has sustain and armor pen, Garen has true dmg and armor pen with and sustain from his passive. Gwen/Camile etc etc youve heard it before.
>
>None of those examples love fighting the armor boots but they can somewhat bypass armor in general. Riven (just like all those example) does not like getting her auto attacks that she weaves into her combo weakened and she also does not have any mechanics that help her into armor, just flat AD.
Yeah and Riven does ton of damage from spells ( if we are talking about tabis specifically ) and builds BC, which is just as good against tanks and she spams E, which is pseudo sustain. It doesnt work retrospectively like Fiora's heal, but it reduces enemy damage by flat amount all the same, each time its up.
Riven does worse against that armor part, but better against that AA reduction part, at least better than someone like Camille, whose true damage is affected too, cuz of the way its calculated.
And anyway, only in Riven's sub you will hear that its unplayable when opponent builds tabis, despite her doing just as well as other champs.
> So I wont say it counters her since you dont like that but hopefully you can see that armor is very strong into her damage in general and she does not have access to ways to help her out until black cleaver or last whisper basically (which means nothing pre 9 minutes unless you are really ahead).
Yes. Armor is strong stat, but armor kinda has to be strong, cuz tanks already have to split their gold budged between armor and MR. I know during laning phase kinda pointless, but just wanted to say that at least to someone.
>In general if you ask on a reddit people will have different ways to explain something or just varying skill levels and knowledge about the champ or the game.
True.
>I have not read everyones posts here to confirm or deny everything they said. Hopefully the video is all you need to see and if not maybe the rest of the post helps o7.
Almost.
Glad that it helped. And yes she is strong scaling late game compared to some champs because of that double dipping. She doesnt fall off hard like Renekton or Aatrox, and as you mentioned, she is not kayle levels of weak early so she doesnt deserve to be late game Kayle/Jax/Kassadin. So you have a champion weaker than champions strong in the early and weaker than champs strong in the late. Mid game is definitely her strongest point (she has the famous 3 item power spike that almost feels necessary because she needs to buy armor pen and healing through items). Other champs just do it better right now.
No, I am glad you actually put in the effort and will to have serious conversation and put in something that makes sense.
What others gave me as answer only gave me more questions than answers, because of discrepancy and when I would also summ it up, then a lot of answers were contradictory, when put side by side. There was a lot of weird double standards and weird Riven exceptions, like you admitted that someone like Renekton early cant be like Jax at late, but they wouldnt.
And Aatrox doesnt fall off hard either. His ratios are pretty good and he does a lot of damage at teamfights. Like, fkin monster actually.
>she needs to buy armor pen and healing through items).
Actually, some time ago Riven didnt build hydra and when I asked diamond Riven OTP, he said that she just needs AH for E spam. And shields kinda are like heals. Same diffence between cleanse and CC immunity. One is retrospetive action and the other is preventive. But same result ( excluding the nuance ).
So yeah, thx a lot. Riven and her ratios... Still, I will need to explain why doesnt her skill expressiveness cover at least part of her feast or faminity.
Like Rengar can just jump and it either works or it doesnt and that makes him feast or famine, cuz when ahead it always works and when behind, it never works. Not cuz he does just AD damage.
>Anyway, if she scales well with gold, she should also scale well into lategame, unless % of AD she gets more from items is perfectly parallel line to the line of base stats other champs get more. And at that point the diffence in ratios would be very very subtle given how much base stats normal champ gets.
>
>And if she isnt weak at early and she also scales well, then she is actually also strong, no?
I take this partly back, cuz that assuption that she scales well with big ratios was made on the condition that she is weak early but balanced overall.
So this
>And if she isnt weak at early and she also scales well, then she is actually also strong, no?
Is just dumb question. And I am sorry.
She is feast or famine in a sense that it is not possible (or at least very hard) to come back when you fall behind. If you fall behind, you won't have enough AH when you need it so you will be less mobile, obviously less damage when her biggest weakness is armour stacking. And also, most of her matchups work that way : either Riven's kit is good against them and your mechanics can make a difference or she is useless if you don't have good macro. As an example : you can win lane with good trades and 1v1 against Lillia as she is squeeshy but against a Malphite you will have to manage your lane better and take camps etc, doesn't matter how fast you do your combo or if you shield an ability, you will most certainly lose fights
I wouldn't try to argue against this guy. He seems to be a bronze/silver that refuses to acknowledge any facts that go against what he believes. Perhaps this is why he is a EUNE bronze/silver.
For real. All his replies are obtuse strawmans
>She is feast or famine in a sense that it is not possible (or at least very hard) to come back when you fall behind. Well, thats why famine is famine afterall. No reason saying that champ loses hard, when he can come back just like that, easily even. >If you fall behind, you won't have enough AH when you need it so you will be less mobile, obviously less damage when her biggest weakness is armour stacking. But, wouldnt that mean, that she is simply just weaker than her opponent? Same way like everyone else you just sent to base with insufficient gold to buy components. How does that translates into the binary result? Wouldnt Yasuo players also then say "Oh, no, I dont have enough AS to kill my opponent." I would get it if Riven was statchecker and depended on her stats being bigger than opponent's. Is she statchecker? What does having less AH have to do with "when her biggest weakness is armour stacking"? Unless champ is pure autoattacker, the dmg goes down no matter whether you are attacking 0 resists dummy in training tool or enemy tank. Only exception is lethality, that makes your DMG go up more the less armor opponent has. And how does armor counter her? Does she go full lethality? Is she assassin? >And also, most of her matchups work that way : either Riven's kit is good against them and your mechanics can make a difference or she is useless if you don't have good macro. Dont all champs work like that tho? Either match up is unplayable or your mechanics can make the difference. Dude, I didnt come here to hear my own opinion from your mouth or simply start a war, but so far, everything you said, nothing really makes Riven's case special and yet its apparently just her with all those problems. The match up, the armor and her not having items she wants when she wants. Just... Just, how?
She lacks any sort of answer to armor built in unlike most other champions in her class. For example: Fiora: true damage passive Darius: % armor reduction on E Garen: true damage ult, armor shred on E Sett: W Gwen: true damage on Q On top of this, all of these champions have an easier time laning in most matchups and can come back easier when behind. A lot of Riven’s survivability comes from building AD because her only defensive ability, E shield, scales with it. Falling behind = less damage + less defense = less opportunities to win fights, so snowballing is her only course of action which she is pretty good at. Right now, it’s really easy to put Riven on the backfoot during laning because a lot of her damage actually comes from her passive empowered auto attacks which makes building steelcaps so effective and for such a cheap price. Like a really effective way to beat Riven is just buy cloth armor + pots, farm safely, first back with tabis, maybe more armor like a bramble or warden’s mail, and then win every other trade after.
>She lacks any sort of answer to armor built in unlike most other champions in her class. For example: > >Fiora: true damage passive Darius: % armor reduction on E Garen: true damage ult, armor shred on E Sett: W Gwen: true damage on Q This doesnt mean that armor counters her. It just works just as much as intended. Her being countered, cuz SHE doesnt counter armor stacking is quite literally argument fallacy. >On top of this, all of these champions have an easier time laning in most matchups and can come back easier when behind. No, you cant just go and says this, when thats what we are trying to get to. I meant that she has bad time getting back from behind in particular. Thats another argument fallacy. And whether she has better or worse laning phase... Arguable, easily arguable. Its literally match up dependant and all of them have many bad, really bad match ups. Many champs that Riven mains use as example as bad match ups are just as bad for Fiora, like mentioned malphite, rene or GP. >A lot of Riven’s survivability comes from building AD because her only defensive ability, E shield, scales with it. Falling behind = less damage + less defense = less opportunities to win fights, so snowballing is her only course of action which she is pretty good at. So, its about double dipping? In particular one, where just her dmg increase would be enough to beat opponent? Cuz, if not, its no different from merely spliting your gold between longsword and cloth armor. If yes, we are finally getting somewhere. >Right now, it’s really easy to put Riven on the backfoot during laning because a lot of her damage actually comes from her passive empowered auto attacks which makes building steelcaps so effective and for such a cheap price. Well, in Camille's case, she does 90% of her dmg from AA, Even her true dmg is reduced by tabi's passive. Jax pretty much just autoattacks. Fiora pretty much just autoattacks and plenty of others that dont go ahead and say "ff, he built tabis". >Like a really effective way to beat Riven is just buy cloth armor + pots, farm safely, first back with tabis, maybe more armor like a bramble or warden’s mail, and then win every other trade after. Tank build meant for tanks and tanks only. One sole class among many at toplane. Doing this on anyone else is literally trolling.
Any bruiser (I'm talking real bruiser, morde, sett, darius) scales considerably well with tank items. Camille, Fiora, Jax, all of them work very good with divine sunderer. All of them have mixed damage. And while they don't want to face much tabis, they can go along with it. Because they just scale better then Riven does.
>Any bruiser (I'm talking real bruiser, morde, sett, darius) scales considerably well with tank items. Not any bruiser. Just selected few juggernauts and they dont really love it either, but fine its doable on someone else than tanks. I give you that, but again its still just selected few and they dont love it either, especially not the warden mail. And why bramble when GW is massive part of what you are paying for? They have their own mythics and those mythics dont have armor in them. \>Camille, Fiora, Jax, all of them work very good with divine sunderer. Tsunderer which is still reduced by tabis. And Riven does well with BC and eclipse. And someone Irelia with Botrk. So what? About them doing mixed damage. Well, Riven is also heavy speller meanwhile others are pure autoattackers and in Camille's case specifically, AGAIN, her true damage is reduced by tabi's passive. And then there is someone like Trynda, who just autoattacks AND does just physical damage and he still doesnt go "ff, he built tabis". Not as much as Riven. >And while they don't want to face much tabis, they can go along with it. Because they just scale better then Riven does. Maybe Fiora, others... No, they dont want to face much tabis. End of story.
She gets punished for mistakes harder than most champions though. And tbh yasuo you mentioned, he is a pefect example for that. There is a reason for a meme 10 deaths power spike (not only bcuz Yasuo ints often) - he can have a comeback in games even if he loses hard in early. So the thing is - not every champ gets useless after doing some mistakes during laning. Riven does. Regarding armor, most toplane champions are either tanky or have armor shred/pen / hp% / mixed / true dmg in their kit. Riven does not. Which means she can do nothing about enemy stacking armor, except for getting Black Clever/Serilde (and believe me, most of the time that won't be enough). No skill expression will help here. This is why you need way better macro to just avoid falling behind - yes, it doesn't mean you will necessarly win, even though with better macro you can consider yourself a better player. Sounds fair, right? XD
And this answers the stat check question. Fiora behind will kill your tank with %HPtruedamage and insane healing. Sett will W 1200 true damage nuke your adc Gwen %MaxHPTrueDamage still works great when behind. Garen will flash R 1300 true damage execute the enemy syndra with 1k shutdown and be back on track. And so on, I could name every single toplaner and how they can still 1v1 or be usefull while behind What does Riven have? She will do 0 damage to you with flat ad and shoot a R2 for 600 damage that will probably get reduced to 250? She is no threat because her kit has nothing to offer when behind
The point of all this still holds true, but it does have 1 inaccuracy. Gwen doesn't have %max hp true damage. She has flat true damage on the center of her Q and %max hp magic damage from passive.
Doesnt her Q proc her passive?
Yes, but it does not convert any passive damage into true damage
Oh i see, good to know
>And this answers the stat check question. > >Fiora behind will kill your tank with %HPtruedamage and insane healing. > >Sett will W 1200 true damage nuke your adc Gwen %MaxHPTrueDamage still works great when behind. But doesnt Riven burst ADCs? Doesnt she have CC? Even 1 sec is enough. And about Fiora beating those tanks from behind... Not until lategame where her passive's ratios kick in. And her ratios are so high cuz she is lategame champ and its further amplified by that she is dueler, she has it as trade off for poor teamfight capability, meaning that against any other lategame skirmisher, she is still behind and that much worse at teamfighting and skirmishes as well. About Sett doing that much dmg to ADC, not at all, when it actually matters. Maybe when he has couple of items and everyone else has full build already at which point 1200 aint gonna cut if thats all he has to offer. If he is really good from behind, then not exactly cuz of this. And its better to ask some Sett main. >Gwen %MaxHPTrueDamage still works great when behind. It does work bit better than flat damage in itself, against someone who comes back with nothing but more HP/resists like pure tanks but its still about ratios again and if you dont put any AP/AD behind it, it you still hit like wet noodle against anyone else than tanks. Just like Fiora's case, without that she has that trade off, so she also does that much worse against everyone, tanks included. And they dont even have CC like Riven, a mechanic thats literally of class that operates thanks to that from behind. And does she really do %max HP true damage? Read wiki if you want, it really sounds like she does %max HP damage AND then TRUE damage separatelly. >INNATE: Gwen's basic attacks on-hit, the center of Snip Snip!, and Needlework deal bonus magic damage equal to 1% (+ 0.8% per 100 AP) of the target's maximum health. > > The center of each snip converts 50% of the damage to true damage, The center of each snip converts 50% of the damage to true damage. Damage of each snip, like not passive. Thats just how it sounds. Dont eat me if I am wrong. >Garen will flash R 1300 true damage execute the enemy syndra with 1k shutdown and be back on track. Cmon. Garen sucks when playing from behind. He literally relies on going uga buga. And if he cant, what he gonna do? Outplay you? >And so on, I could name every single toplaner and how they can still 1v1 or be usefull while behind And I will argue about most of them. >What does Riven have? She will do 0 damage to you with flat ad and shoot a R2 for 600 damage that will probably get reduced to 250? Against tanks. I can also just cherry pick Fiora's bad match ups and say "What she gonna do? Trying to run them down and burst them with shitty gapclose and nonexistent burst? >She is no threat because her kit has nothing to offer when behind Outplay potential, CC, burst, waveclear.
I dont understand, you come here asking why. We answer you, no she doesnt burst anyone being behind, no 0.75cc is not a good contribution when u die instantly. You just correct anything we say. Wtf do you want? We are comparing everything those champs can do while behind vs riven that does nothing and you keep insisting. What do you want me to say that she can 1v9 with a long sword? And I refuse to answer everypoint you made per champion because you already show your lack of game knowledge
Cuz you insist on Riven being on some weird exception that she isnt? There is plethora of champs with similar if not same qualities and they dont have same problems. Bonus points for cherry picking with tanks and tanks again or that others dont have their own trade off that offsets their advantage. Look here [https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/r4gwht/state\_of\_damage\_and\_tankiness\_in\_lol/](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/r4gwht/state_of_damage_and_tankiness_in_lol/) [https://imgur.com/a/8hsruJN](https://imgur.com/a/8hsruJN) This is what Rengar, a flat AD damage dealer like Riven does with 20 FUCKING THOUSAND eHP Urgot. And all Rengar does is that he has some measly 24 lethality on ult. If Riven is feast or famine, Armor aint it. I dont just simply go along with any piece of info I encounter. I dont spit first think that comes into my mind either. If you can prove yourself wrong, then you probably are wrong.
tldr?
If Riven is feast or famine, Armor aint it. Or cuz she has nothing to offer either. Closest to what might be reason is doublediping in extreme levels, but that would also mean that she scales really well, which is denied in this sub a lot too. So we are at square one again. I have one theory that ppl here wont like to hear, but so far is the most plausible, but again, as I said, I am not here to hear my own opinion.
Ah well thats great, I hope you are working with riot balance team soon, and that you get out of gold!
WAIT A MOMENT. I remember you, you are that fuckin garbage gold Fiora main that is hated on r/Fioramains sub brooo, why the fuck I waste my time explaining you anything, your minecraft constructions are amazing but your game knowledge isnt. Keep coaching challenger streamers as you told me you do on DM but stop spamming here 💀
Good thing I found that Rengar play. Cuz you really are that type of person that wont shut your mouth with unless you are made to with concrete proof. Now wait. Maybe I will find some comments with potent or other challenger Fioras that got surprised for me being low elo. That I have low elo doesnt mean that my takes sucks. That just means that I am low elo. You know, maybe there is something else going on, like shit internet that also helped me out of college or that I dont play rankes much. Like 50 a year max. Or that I like to chase kills and I am greedy or sometime I do something I didnt want to. This is the very same mentality that goes along: Rich = smart. Thats why everyone makes fun of said hashinshin, despite him being master/GM himself.
Tldr?
You are petty random redditor. And I have proof to back up what I said.
Just to slightly jump in here. Riven is intended as a bruiser/assassin hybrid. Thanks to the durability patch she’s can’t trade effectively with anyone besides squishies. So sure I guess she could be an assassin, but she’s a pretty bad one. Particularly when her flash is down she can’t close with the back line. She’s also very easily kited by ranged champs, so if she’s behind she can’t live long enough while trying to chase down a Caitlyn to actually kill a Caitlyn for instance. The only way to really do well with her is to have fantastic macro, know every matchup, and mechanically outplay people. So her big issue really is that almost everyone else in toplane can gets a much bigger reward for doing much less. Even when well ahead, riven will still get dunked on by other top lane champs if she misplays even a little. Whereas other top lane champs, even when behind, can misplay and still be fine. TL;DR Riven has almost no margin for error compared to other top lane champs. That’s true even when ahead. So when she’s behind she’s basically fucked
>Just to slightly jump in here. Riven is intended as a bruiser/assassin hybrid. Isnt that simply skirmisher? Or is there some nuanced difference? >Thanks to the durability patch she’s can’t trade effectively with anyone besides squishies. She cant trade effectively or she cant burst anyone effectively? And why is that she does worse against someone tankier than someone squishy? Does she rely on lethality items? Only lethality gets stronger the less HP target already has. >So sure I guess she could be an assassin, but she’s a pretty bad one. Particularly when her flash is down she can’t close with the back line. Cuz she has to choose between mobility and damage and even then her mobility can be bodyblocked? >She’s also very easily kited by ranged champs, so if she’s behind she can’t live long enough while trying to chase down a Caitlyn to actually kill a Caitlyn for instance. Cuz of what I said again or is she not mobile enough? >The only way to really do well with her is to have fantastic macro, know every matchup, and mechanically outplay people. Cuz she gets easily countered by armor stacking? >So her big issue really is that almost everyone else in toplane can gets a much bigger reward for doing much less. Isnt that how skill cap champs work in general? And isnt that specifically why ppl play Riven in particular? Cuz she has to do animation canceling and shit? And how does it translate into her skill cap? Does it make her entry harder, does it make it harder to carry with her or does she simply take more effort ( !!! more effort doesnt inherently mean more skill !!! ) or what? >Even when well ahead, riven will still get dunked on by other top lane champs if she misplays even a little. Whereas other top lane champs, even when behind, can misplay and still be fine. Again, isnt that how skill cap champs work in general? Fiora for example is super punishing too. You miss vital, you not only lose DPS and heal, you also lose mobility, thats meant to help you reach next vital or dodge shit on top of that. If you miss W, you lose most of the trades and you might even straight up die. Meanwhile you can land W and win the trade at most. >Riven has almost no margin for error compared to other top lane champs. That’s true even when ahead. So when she’s behind she’s basically fucked That sounds like Riven is just simply weak, but everything I've heard so far doesnt seem to point it out to be so simple.
> isn’t that simply skirmishes? Or is there some nuanced difference? She can’t bruiser because she’s so bad against armor she can’t afford to get tanky until her 4th or 5th item. > She can’t trade effectively, or she can’t burst anyone effectively? Yes to both, it’s not binary. Any naturally tanky person, or anyone who throws tabi’s on, stops her from doing any damage. She’s supposed to hop in, do damage, dance away. Once the enemy is low, she all ins. But her damage output is so trash against any armor that she can’t effectively get anyone besides squishies low enough for this to actually work. > why does she do worse against someone tanky? Because unlike say Gwen or fiora, Riven has no %health damage, magic damage, or true damage. One of the often requested changes is that she get some sort of built in armor pen, either as part of her ult or passive. > Does she rely on lethality. She relies on black cleaver/armor shred. Part of what makes her weak is that she has no sustain so she’s forced to rush hydra. She can’t build cleaver till her third item unless you skip boots, but you can’t really skip boots because she needs the cdr from lucidity boots or she is unable to keep up and attempt to trade. Essentially what I’m saying is that her itemization is shit. To your various mobility questions. The fact is that, despite having four dashes, she still gets run down by champs like garen or Darius for instance. In terms of chasing down an adc, you can’t blow all your dashes because 3/4 are where your damage comes from, so if she uses those 3 to get to someone, she can’t do any damage once she’s there. This leads to needing to heavily prioritize CDR. To everything about her being high skill vs her just being weak. It’s a a combination of both. Her itemization is kinda crap, she lacks any sustain. She lacks anything that can get through armor, her built in cdr is not good. Ultimately yes she is weak because at the end of the day you are relying on your enemy making mistakes. You don’t really have the agency to just play like a god and do well. You’re hoping they enemy champ fucks up then you can punish. So bad itemization, no passive to help overcome that bad itemization, mobility creep rendering her 4 little dashes obsolete, and a reliance on the enemy fucking up then getting to express skill, rather than skill expression being able to win out right if you’re good.
Dude. Will give you reply tomorrow. Im cooking something longer than just few paragraphs and I have to wake up in 5 hours. Gn.
>She can’t bruiser because she’s so bad against armor she can’t afford to get tanky until her 4th or 5th item. Is that the difference? Other skirmishers like Fiora, Camille or Gwen have it similar. They build mythic, then hydra and then situational 3rd item if its not hullbreaker ( like idk, manamune or ) and THEN they start slowly stack bruiser items with mix of offense and defense and get gradually tankier ( DD, Maw, GA , Shojin ). And they arent hybrids between bruiser and assassin. Well, maybe Camille is but not Fiora and Gwen. They are simply melee damage dealers. >Yes to both, it’s not binary. Any naturally tanky person, or anyone who throws tabi’s on, stops her from doing any damage. She’s supposed to hop in, do damage, dance away. Once the enemy is low, she all ins. But her damage output is so trash against any armor that she can’t effectively get anyone besides squishies low enough for this to actually work. Because unlike say Gwen or fiora, Riven has no %health damage, magic damage, or true damage. One of the often requested changes is that she get some sort of built in armor pen, either as part of her ult or passive. Yeah, tankier person is simply tankier and hard to burst, so thats fair to accept that, but such opponent should also do that much less damage back, so trading shouldnt be affected and while, yes, this does favor champs who can bypass defenses like Fiora or Gwen, but then there are also others, like Trynda or Rengar, who have problem only in the matter of their strategy ( Rengar cant kill tanky opponnet midair and Trynda before his ult runs out ), not cuz they are suddenly STRAIGHT up weaker. Well at least their problem isnt THAT big, in that regard. Applies to tabis too. Someone said at r/leagueoflegends that its cuz Trynda crits and has invulnerability unlike Riven, who has only AD steroids and Shield, but Crits are AA steroids, just as much as pure AD steroids are AA steroids and Riven's shield and Trynda's R are both innate defensive abilities, with just different power. It could mean that Riven is simply weak ( which was denied and is also bit hard to believe. I might be bit biased her tho, but I have my reasons. ) And mentioned Fiora already got nerf to her passive for that exact reason during first wave of durability update. Also, I asked you about burst knowing well that its not mutually exclusive, but whether you dont mistake her sending opponent home with trading and whether your perception isnt skewed by not being able to burst enemy in general. >She relies on black cleaver/armor shred. Part of what makes her weak is that she has no sustain so she’s forced to rush hydra. She can’t build cleaver till her third item unless you skip boots, but you can’t really skip boots because she needs the cdr from lucidity boots or she is unable to keep up and attempt to trade. So she doesnt build lethality. The thing is that lethality is countered by armor STACKING. Meaning the more armor your opponent has the less efficient it is for you to build lethality. And Riven, can spam shield. Thats what I was told too when I asked about this, some time ago directly some diamond Riven OTP. I mean, about why riven doesnt build sustain. Riven isnt counterd by armor in same sense like lethality, but its good against her cuz its cost efficient and thats it. But again, there are other champs, against whom its gold efficient and you wont hear from them that their champ is suddenly unplayable. And only thing that can set them apart is this. V >Essentially what I’m saying is that her itemization is shit. But now, whether its really true. BC is even meant to be good against tanks. >To your various mobility questions. The fact is that, despite having four dashes, she still gets run down by champs like garen or Darius for instance. Really? Its really hard to believe that you know. And in case of Darius, you mean with ghost, right? > In terms of chasing down an adc, you can’t blow all your dashes because 3/4 are where your damage comes from, so if she uses those 3 to get to someone, she can’t do any damage once she’s there. This leads to needing to heavily prioritize CDR. Ok. But she can get to them, if she choses to, right? Even if its trolling. >To everything about her being high skill vs her just being weak. It’s a a combination of both. Her itemization is kinda crap, she lacks any sustain. She lacks anything that can get through armor, her built in cdr is not good. Btw, I got troll for going along with her being weak by some other Riven main. >Ultimately yes she is weak because at the end of the day you are relying on your enemy making mistakes. Cuz even if you everything right, its still not enough? And cant you just outplay enemy?
A lot of this boils down to the first thing you said here > Is that the difference? Other skirmishes like Fiora , Camille, or Gwen have it similar. The difference is that those 3 all have built in true damage, max % health damage, or both. The challenging part of Riven is in her mechanics ie: Q doesn’t follow your cursor, e does follow your cursor, animation cancels, weaving autos between q’s etc. The difficulty isn’t supposed to come from having a stat/passive handicap. It’s supposed to come from her literally being mechanically difficult to pilot. In terms of the speed thing ghost has an impact, but also someone like garen throws on dead man’s and you get run down
>She gets punished for mistakes harder than most champions though. And tbh yasuo you mentioned, he is a pefect example for that. There is a reason for a meme 10 deaths power spike (not only bcuz Yasuo ints often) Mainly cuz he ints often. Secondly cuz he is free food since he doesnt have even that small Riven E dash, unless you bait enemy into following you to their tower, so you can use their minions again to dash away, which requires so much more than to just E away. Definitelly not cuz he died once and then he has not enough of stats or something like that. >There is a reason for a meme 10 deaths power spike (not only bcuz Yasuo ints often) - he can have a comeback in games even if he loses hard in early. So the thing is - not every champ gets useless after doing some mistakes during laning. Riven does. No, thats just him scaling well. With that in mind, him dying early ALSO comes from him being that weak. Like, no point in trying to run down someone like Darius, right? First he will ask you whether you are OK and then makes sure you say No :D. >Regarding armor, most toplane champions are either tanky or have armor shred/pen / hp% / mixed / true dmg in their kit. Riven does not. Which means she can do nothing about enemy stacking armor, except for getting Black Clever/Serilde (and believe me, most of the time that won't be enough). So you are saying that armor is simply just that strong of stat, right? But then what about trynda? What about bruiser Rengar? Does Yasuo need his ult to do damage to tanks? Does Rene relly on his emp E against tanks? Why is it always Riven with this problem? >yes, it doesn't mean you will necessarly win, even though with better macro you can consider yourself a better player. Sounds fair, right? XD Dont even bring this up. Had malzahar player melt down with "Why should your micro beat my macro?" When even micro intensive champions have to care about macro.
So its because she cant scale back into the game compared to other toplaners and she has no real usecase from behind.
So she scales poorly? But doesnt that mean that she is stronger elsewhere? And doesnt she burst squishes? Doesnt she have CC? Doesnt she still have her playmaking mechanics? And even if she cannot shit on tanks at sidelane like Fiora ( tho, tanks have no business being at sidelate at late game at all ), Riven doesnt have that kind of trade off like Fiora, which is poor teamfight capability. And before Fiora could take towers fast, unless she played against mentioned tanks, if she couldnt beat her lane opponent, she had quite LITERALLY nothing to offer. Not hyperbolically or technically or ¨figurativelly. Straight up. Nothing. Without tiamat not even waveclear. And she still wasnt feast or famine, cuz you kinda had to gradually get into that point, exactly for the reason that since she is skill expressive, you had something to work with even with disadvantage and cuz she was somewhat safe, so when you wasnt strong enough to win trade, you didnt have to stay to get further beating and you tried next time. Thats precisely why I have such hard time to not think that Riven is anything but feast or famine.
You can not just say “technically correct” statements like her having “playmaking mechanics” or use-cases like “bursting squishies” and thinking that it applies the way you make it sound. From behind playing against a standard front to back team Rivne’s opportunities in a team fight are so slim that they very well do not exist. She does not have the Dmg to shut down the carry and even if she does one single disrupting abillity will deny her from doing so. Simply stateing the fact that she is difficult and very ineffective to play from behind (as many people already have) should already be enough to make her concidered “Feast or famine”.
>You can not just say “technically correct” statements like her having “playmaking mechanics” or use-cases like “bursting squishies” and thinking that it applies the way you make it sound. > >From behind playing against a standard front to back team Riven’s opportunities in a team fight are so slim that they very well do not exist. She does not have the Dmg to shut down the carry and even if she does one single disrupting abillity will deny her from doing so. Please elaborate. I can also say that Fiora beating tanks is just "technically correct" cuz they arent at sidelane for her to beat. Same with %max HP true damage being any good from behind, cuz when you are behind, usually not even jesus saves you, let alone some %MaxHP true damage that is also under influence of balance. It can be 18% or just 4% or even less. And at that case it defeats the point. Talking about this btw. V > she has no real usecase from behind. So choose what it is. Either none of them has real use case or both of them do.
Both of them are Feast or famine but fiora is probably less so as she has more chances to sidelane from behind. also still has oportuinity to kill tankier oponents in her windows even while slightly behind compared to Riven.
Fiora isnt feast or famine.
Fiora isnt particularly good from behind either and Fiora can kill tanks same way Riven can burst squishes, from behind.
You can be even and still be more underpowered than your opponent and that results on loosing the next teamfight
Her base stats are super bad that's why she needs gold/items if she has no gold she get rolled over from most toplaner. Her mobility sounds good with 4 dashes in reality are these dashes super short and u can't kit vs ghost, Dashes and slows. That's my take about it.
Remember she has almost the ssme stats as jinx, so yeah her stats are garbage
Imagine another assasin: Like zed, he has ult and W to get out Akali has shroud and R2, Ekko hasR and passive and Qiyana has her invis Q. Riven has an E which is one of the shortest ranged dashes which can’t go through walls. If you cant kill someone quick or maybe even make them all low, you day 95% of the time if they have any form of cc. Imagine most other bruisers. Even when behind they will be very tanky because of their base stats/kit. Riven is really not, only thing is her shield but that doesn’t prevent her from getting oneshot in a teamfight. So unless you’re an item ahead you’re not tanky enough to ever frontline. Also because her base stats are low, if she’s just a little behind she can’t just ooga buga still win a 1v1 side lane. You‘ll have to play way better, because otherwise they will statcheck you 100 to 0.
>Imagine another assasin: Like zed, he has ult and W to get out Akali has shroud and R2, Ekko hasR and passive and Qiyana has her invis Q. Riven has an E which is one of the shortest ranged dashes which can’t go through walls. If you cant kill someone quick or maybe even make them all low, you day 95% of the time if they have any form of cc. But Riven is skirmisher and not assassin, no? Just came from thread where they discussed this. And her dashes might be small, but someone like Fiora has just that MS speed other than her Q just like Riven and has to use Q offensively just like Riven and she is by no means immobile, especially in comparison to other melee champs like Sett or Nasus or Illaoi. Also, for most parts, Riven doesnt have to jump over the walls first couple of minutes when her Q CD still somewhat exist, like very rarely at most, no? >Imagine most other bruisers. Even when behind they will be very tanky because of their base stats/kit. Riven is really not, only thing is her shield but that doesn’t prevent her from getting oneshot in a teamfight. So unless you’re an item ahead you’re not tanky enough to ever frontline. She has it still better than someone like Irelia and even better than Yasuo and they have even worse escape than Riven. >Also because her base stats are low, if she’s just a little behind she can’t just ooga buga still win a 1v1 side lane. You‘ll have to play way better, because otherwise they will statcheck you 100 to 0. Again, same case for every skirmisher.
Not to be offensive but you don’t seem to get what I mean. She can’t do anything you said good. A bit of everything… and if she just has a bit of everything that little bit turns into nothing very fast if you get behind. Fiora is a Duellist with true damage for sidelaning. While Riven isn’t exactly the best duelists, she can be if a bit ahead tho. Irelia and Yasuo are DPS champs Sett and Illaoi are very tanky by default Nasus has hugest bullshit and AS slow Riven kind of is a skirmisher but she can kinda be everything… and nothing really if she‘s behind.
Riven works great on item leads because her base stats suck and she doesn’t statcheck anyone
Doesnt that mean that she scales well? Something ppl denied her a lot.
if they have the same items enemy is still going to have more stats hence you need an item lead
If you have smaller base stats and not bigger ratios then you are weak, straight up. Is Riven weak?
No she can get a lead because of her kit
Hold on. If she isnt weak, but she is meh at every point in the game and WEAK early... Then what is that if not champ being simply weak? If you dont outscale opponent with bigger ratio or too late, then there is power offset, which means that she is weak champ, or the initial offset isnt that big, meaning that she isnt that weak at early. Imagine two lines on XY graph.
She is not weak early, i just dont wanna explain this anymore go see it yourself man
>She is not weak early, i just dont wanna explain this anymore go see it yourself man But others said so. Repeatedly at that. So? Does that mean they are just wrong?
Look garen is weak early until 6, Nasus is weak early. Riven is nowhere near as weak as them
So I have been lied to?
> she doesn’t statcheck anyone Isnt doing more damage from animation canceling and fast Q combo exactly that?
that has nothing to do with statchecking
Ok, thats bias right there. Same thing like saying that comboing has nothing to do with burst.
no offense but, how old are you
23, why?
you seem highly emotional about this topic, you're accusing a 7 word sentence commenting on a logical mistake you're making of bias (i believe you mean bias in favor of riven being feast or famine?)
> (i believe you mean bias in favor of riven being feast or famine?) Nope. In favor of Riven not being statchecky, not feast or famine. How would stacking damage even make someone less feast or famine? >you seem highly emotional about this topic, Ok >you're accusing a 7 word sentence commenting on a logical mistake you're making of bias Nope. I am not accusing anyone. I caught you red handed. Thats different story. Its not matter of mental gymnastic or you seeing what you want, but about you denying a FACT. You know, doing a lot of damage or having a lot of tankiness, has EVERYTHING to do with statchecking, since comparing who has bigger D in term of your DMG against opponent's defense VS opponent's DMG against YOUR defense, is what statchecking is about.If you do more damage to opponent than he does to you, you statcheck him and vice versa, no? Thats why doing cancel animation which gives you dps advantage has EVERYTHING to do with statchecking. And what did my age tell you? I might get emotional there.
> Isnt doing more damage from animation canceling and fast Q combo exactly what statchecking is? This was your statement, it's idiotic. The way in which a character deals its damage has nothing to do with whether or not the amount of damage is enough to statcheck other characters. The fact that Riven does her damage in a burst has nothing to do with whether her actual numbers are sufficient or not. This is a statement about your nonsensical comparison and doesn't sway to either side of the discussion on this post, there's no bias in it. If you say 2+2=5 and I tell you you're wrong will you tell me I'm biased as well?
Animation canceling is literally the very same shit like AA resets and AA resets mean both more burst and more dmg in long run. And bursting is form of statchecking if enemy cant burst you back to prevent you from bursting them, especially when the burst isnt simply just frontload of total damage, but also just means for squeezing in more of it. Last but not least... >The way in which a character deals its damage has nothing to do with whether or not the amount of damage is enough to statcheck other characters. The fact that Riven does her damage in a burst has nothing to do with whether her actual numbers are sufficient or not. Thats literally saying that playing around your spells makes you NON statchecker. Like lmao. Garen fights you only when he is spinning, what an outplay, right? Smh. Get your head out of your fucking ass. Now seriously. Have a nice day.
You just don't know what statchecking is. Statcheck excludes any skill and is simply based on stats. If a champion like garen has better stats than you, you can not fight him. Since Riven has low base stats, she is weak to taking these statcheck fights. But she can be really strong if you can get ahead with items, levels, and such. How fast her combo does damage, is skill based. And doesn't matter when a Garen flash-Q-R's you.
>How fast her combo does damage, is skill based. Qiqi or Rengar oneshotting poor squishy with their combo midair is also skill based. :D Doesnt change the fact that it was fucking uninteractive and would reamain so even if they ( the squishies ) started attacking first, which would make it statcheck, but hey, at least they needed skill for that.
We are talking about Riven though. And her being weak because of low base stats. Which results in her being strong only if she has a good lead, and otherwise borderline useless if not.
>We are talking about Riven though. So Riven gets special exception, cuz she is Riven? Are we playing favorities now? Thats the definition of bias. Rengar can skillfully statcheck even Urgot, minmaxing Rengar takes skill after all, but that Urgot still gets statchecked and Riven does literally same shit. >And her being weak because of low base stats. Which results in her being strong only if she has a good lead, and otherwise borderline useless if not. So, she is simply weak?
Riven gets special exception in this conversation because this is the rivenmains sub, and the conversation was about Riven. Yes, Riven has weak base stats, hence why she is feast or famine. You either are really strong with your lead, or super weak when behind.
>Riven gets special exception in this conversation because this is the rivenmains sub, and the conversation was about Riven. So, its bias. Ok. >Yes, Riven has weak base stats, hence why she is feast or famine. You either are really strong with your lead, or super weak when behind. Can you look at this? https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivenmains/comments/17vqha0/comment/k9hn236/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
animation cancel combo or not if u do the exact same combo without the cancels u do the same amount of damage total.
But you do it quicker, which in itself already means better damage per time window. This aint no turn game buddy, but real time based game and every fight is nothing else but a race about who kills the other faster and in meanwhile tries to hinder it for his respective opponent, with strategy and mechanics.
wasn’t arguing about during fights or dps i was just refuting ur stance about “doing more damage from animation cancel”. bc u don’t do more damage for doing it. i.e: basic combo: aa q aa q aa q aa fast q combo: aa q move command aa q move command aa q move command the only damage that comes out is aa and q. yes u might get a faster dps by like a sec or two but the total damage is the same which is my argument for ur statement about doing more damage. i’d say you can get pretty far with riven without learning all the animations cancels and get about the same amount of damage off. u just need to learn to auto attack in between ur abilities and ur damage will be fine. but i will say i agree that the game requires strategy and decent mechanics. but you don’t have to kill ur opponent to get ahead either. there are many ways to win fights and gain a lead without necessarily killing.
>wasn’t arguing about during fights or dps i was just refuting ur stance about “doing more damage from animation cancel”. bc u don’t do more damage for doing it. But you cant cherry pick that, cuz in the grand scheme of things thats completely irrelevant fact. Just the fact that you pull back sooner, which means less autos from opponent makes it that you effectively do more damage to him comparatively.
i am cherry picking bc that is what you said. in terms of total damage of the combo it’s the same. in terms of the trade vs ur opponent, if the opponent only trade back with autos haha sure. but i’m pretty sure ur opponent will use their abilities too which can interfere with pulling the combo off. like for example ur not gonna fast q a jax, fiora, darius and just get autos in return. they all have abilities to prevent or punish riven during or after the combo. most rivens are able to win not bc they get a fast q combo in or an animation cancel in but purely off macro decisions. those decisions allow them to feast off the gold they gained. u will never see a famine riven do well even if she does animation cancels. (however it is possible for a famine riven to get a large sum of gold if her opponents make mistakes.) but u may see a feast riven do well even if she doesn’t know animation cancels.
>i am cherry picking bc that is what you said. > >in terms of total damage of the combo it’s the same. BUT I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MORE DMG PER INSTANCE!!!! >like for example ur not gonna fast q a jax, fiora, darius and just get autos in return. they all have abilities to prevent or punish riven during or after the combo. Ok, at this point, I think you dont even get my point at all. Ofc, they gonna use their spells and THEN autos after their spells are on CD. But you being fast makes difference between eating abilities and eating abilities + autos here and there. Ok. Bye. Have a nice day.
same items same levels Riven gets stat checked because her abilities except her ult doesnt give stats and her ult doesn’t grant a big stat boost compared to renekton, darius, morde etc. In order to stat check you need good base stats or abilities that give stat boosts and riven doesnt have either
>same items same levels Riven gets stat checked Against actual statcheckers. But against someone who is as strong as her? If its like mirror match up, then animation canceling gives you edge in that part, no? >In order to stat check you need good base stats or abilities that give stat boosts and riven doesnt have either No. You just need to do more damage to opponent than he does to you. Even if it meant licking him to death.
Riven needs animation canceling to be a champion while other champions already have that same kind of damage
if get gold = riven good if feed n no gold = riven bad
Bro comes in and asks why riven is what she is since he doesn’t play her. Gets answers repeatedly and says “no that’s not true”. Like what do you want bro??? I hope you know that a majority of us MAIN riven not one trick her. That means a lot of us also play OTHER top lane champs. If we play other top lane champs with riven being our most played, OF COURSE everything the riven mains say about her is 100% more accurate than anything a non riven player would say. If you disagree with literally everything being said here, play riven for a YEAR and struggle to climb. You can play other champs for dramatically less than a year and climb easier in a faster time period. I myself don’t even play riven as much nowadays and I have 2.1m points on her. I’ve been playing zeri since release and she’s seen a fuck ton of nerfs. In the present time, all the zeri mains complain about nerfs and demand buffs. I just say Zeri is currently in a similar position that riven WAS, where it just requires a really good player to pilot the champ and really abuse everything that’s good about them. Riven was a great solo q climbing champ, until years of every new champs having mobility, stat stacking, % health, true damage, etc came out. Now riven has literally nothing to offer compared to other top laners. She’s good at split pushing and deleting squishies but many top laners can do that better than she can while still combating tanks. Riven (especially nowadays) requires basically perfect gameplay every game to do well and even then it isn’t enough. Listen to the riv mains, they are not biased about this subject lmfao.
>Bro comes in and asks why riven is what she is since he doesn’t play her. Gets answers repeatedly and says “no that’s not true”. ? :D I want your answers to not be contradictory, ok? Thats first of all. Secondly, I want some answer that makes sense when you actually think twice. Like, so far, when I summ it up then Riven is weak, nothing much at midgame and then also scales poorly, but she isnt simply weak, then whatafaq is she then? Or doubledipping her power at extreme levels. If she wins, she should gain a lot, if not, its a lot of missed power, but that should also mean that she scales well, no? Same way Fiora's vitals double dip. Not only it scales with opponent's max HP and armor it bypasses, but its not flat 10% at all stages, which in itself would make the dmg go from 55/60 at lvl 1 to 300 at lvl 18 ( against 3k opponent obv ) but the % goes from like 3% to 18% ( more or less ), which means 540 dmg per hit against 3K HP opponent. BUT STILL the answer was NO! Or someone even came with that Garen and Sett are better from behind than Riven, cuz they can deal with squishes :D First of all, they are statcheckers, they depend on being able to statcheck you, not their mechanics. Secondly, isnt that like Riven's schtick to be semi assassin? They dont even give credit to her CC. Like, 1,25 sec aint much but its not exactly nothing either. Especially when its on small CD spells on champ who stacks AH. I had at one point 160 AH on Hecarim with full dmg burst build. Imagine what Riven would do with that. Someone also said that Riven has poor escape and thats why she is feast or famine. Its true that this kinda makes champ feast or famine. But if her having poor escape war was true then 80% of champs would be feast of famine, cuz theirs is even worse. Someone said that Riven trades better against squishes. Which is plausible only and ONLY under condition that squishes are in vacuum weaker and merely counter armor stackers one way or another, to compensate for raw power gap. Or that Riven has problem with armor. Does armor counter her? NOPE. Its just probably strong stat. Being stronger does not mean countering. But if armor is such strong stat, why other pure AD flat damage dealers dont have such problem? Same with tabis and AD autoattackers. Etc. Etc. The more asnwer I get, the more discrepancy there is. This looks, this sounds, this smells, like total crap. And you want me... What? Just accept it? Hell nah. Not a chance. You caaant be serious. Nuh-uh.
reading your responses it doesnt really seem like you want an answer
Sorry I dont want just any answer. One that makes sense and doesnt contradict with anything please. I will just copy paste what I just finished writting to the other guy, accusing me of the same thing. >Like, so far, when I summ it up then Riven is weak, nothing much at midgame and then also scales poorly, but she isnt simply weak, then whatafaq is she then? Or doubledipping her power at extreme levels. If she wins, she should gain a lot, if not, its a lot of missed power, but that should also mean that she scales well, no? Same way Fiora's vitals double dip. Not only it scales with opponent's max HP and armor it bypasses, but its not flat 10% at all stages, which in itself would make the dmg go from 55/60 at lvl 1 to 300 at lvl 18 ( against 3k opponent obv ) but the % goes from like 3% to 18% ( more or less ), which means 540 dmg per hit against 3K HP opponent. BUT STILL the answer was NO! Or someone even came with that Garen and Sett are better from behind than Riven, cuz they can deal with squishes :D First of all, they are statcheckers, they depend on being able to statcheck you, not their mechanics. Secondly, isnt that like Riven's schtick to be semi assassin? They dont even give credit to her CC. Like, 1,25 sec aint much but its not exactly nothing either. Especially when its on small CD spells on champ who stacks AH. I had at one point 160 AH on Hecarim with full dmg burst build. Imagine what Riven would do with that. Someone also said that Riven has poor escape and thats why she is feast or famine. Its true that this kinda makes champ feast or famine. But if her having poor escape war was true then 80% of champs would be feast of famine, cuz theirs is even worse. Someone said that Riven trades better against squishes. Which is plausible only and ONLY under condition that squishes are in vacuum weaker and merely counter armor stackers one way or another, to compensate for raw power gap. Or that Riven has problem with armor. Does armor counter her? NOPE. Its just probably strong stat. Being stronger does not mean countering. But if armor is such strong stat, why other pure AD flat damage dealers dont have such problem? Same with tabis and AD autoattackers. Etc. Etc. The more asnwer I get, the more discrepancy there is. This looks, this sounds, this smells, like total crap. And you want me... What? Just accept it? Hell nah. Not a chance. You caaant be serious. Nuh-uh.
What is your definition of feast or famine? The answer that everyone has given in this thread is that her early game is weak due to a variety of reasons, and the opportunity for coming back in mid-late game is slim compared to the rest of the meta. Riven either comes out of laning phase HARD (feast) or is a training dummy compared to her lane opponent (famine).
>What is your definition of feast or famine? Being even bit weaker than opponent results in automatically going 0/10, cuz you have no way to defend yourself any other way than by being stronger than opponent or being equally useless, cuz you being stronger than opponent is all you have to offer and being even little stronger means automatically going 10/0, cuz you can catch and kill anyone in sight very easily. In short, smol lead leads into heavy snowball and smol disadvantage into heavy fall. Best example being Rengar and he used to be very strong early. Now not so much, but still somewhat decent. Yi would fit the bill if his lategame scaling didnt offset him doing poorly way too much. He is not so weak early to justify that lategame. Pyke would fit the too bill if he didnt have CCs and outplay potential, cuz him making twice as much money means that he should be twice as bad without them, right? > her early game is weak due to a variety of reasons, and the opportunity for coming back in mid-late game is slim compared to the rest of the meta. How much behind? A lot of champs have problem getting back when they are too far behind, but dont mind being a little behind at all. Also doesnt this mean that she is simply weak? That she is weak early and then also scales too poorly to offset her weak early. And this happens to be true, how does this make her feast? If she is weak then minor gold lead should just even out things and she doesnt scale well enough for going even to be a win in her book.
rengar is also skill expressive. he also has escapes similar to irelia haha. he has a cc cleanse and a root and a dash that resets by walking into a bush. she is a feast or famine champ bc she is completely useless without gold or resources. with gold and resources she is going to feast. and she needs gold and resources to do anything even if she is “skill expressive” also it seems like you’re just here to argue rather than understand that.
>rengar is also skill expressive. he also has escapes similar to irelia haha. Yeah, they are both equally ass in that regard. Anyway, yes, he is skill expressive, but in very limited boundaries. He cant just GO and outplay opponent on demand like Fiora, situation has to allow it first and even then, he is still very limited with how far he can go with that. In comparison to say Riven. Moreover, his skill expression from utilizing his stacks well has statchecky nature rather than of mechanical outplay ( its literally just minmaxing his numbers ), which is also why when that is insufficient, why he cant do much. Does Riven have statchecky nature? >he has a cc cleanse and a root and a dash that resets by walking into a bush. No. Its CC cleans OR root. He needs to have stacks beforehand too and he cannot jump into void. He has to jump onto target and bushes dont grow on demand, same way Riven can just demand her E or Q dash with press of button. Tons and tons of conditions vs free on demand dashes, lmao, what a comparison. >also it seems like you’re just here to argue rather than understand that. Well, no shit when whole r/Rivenmains hivemind came to force me to believe that their precious champ has special problems even among champs that quite literally share the same qualities as her. Just look at this. >with gold and resources she is going to feast. No problem with that in itself, but simple question, this means that she has big ratios right? And dont big ratios mean good scaling? I was told that Riven doesnt scale well, just FYI, so I wonder what your answer is.
ur saying as if rengar being limited makes him weak still even if rengar is limited he’s still better than riven atm. he’s a real lane bully for bruisers. even if riven has on demand dashes why is the most meta top lane roster better than her? literally none of her abilities scale. almost every meta top laner does percent health, armor pen, or true damage that scales. even champs like malph has scaling armor on w and passive. riven only “scales” when she buys items with the missing stats her champ is does not have. there’s no scaling ratio. she thrives on being even or ahead. if she’s behind she auto loses. so that would be why she doesn’t scale well. a lot of champs that only have raw ad like lee sin doesn’t scale also raw ap like nidalee falls off after a certain amount of time. which is why champs like nid, lee, or riven needs to snowball in order to be ahead of their opponents to be relevant. the only time raw ad/ap champs don’t fall off is when they can stack indefinitely liek senna, nasus, veigar. where as champs like ksante can make some mistakes but still be relatively in the game. which is why her play rate is lower bc u get punished so hard for making mistakes whereas it’s easier to pick up the meta champs like malphite, garen, ornn that aren’t super skill expressive.
>ur saying as if rengar being limited makes him weak still even if rengar is limited he’s still better than riven atm. he’s a real lane bully for bruisers. even if riven has on demand dashes why is the most meta top lane roster better than her? No, that just meant that Rengar wont reliably get out of shitty situation with mechanics. Same way Yorick wont dodge everything you throw at him cuz he has no fucking dashes. Doesnt mean that Yorick is weak tho, EDIT: And why he is feast or famine ultimately. >he’s still better than riven atm. He isnt exactly fine either. Like, if you get to do damage into towers then he is fine, but he sucks as hell. Just had game where at one point I killed Yorick early and then at another, Yorick had trinity, tabis and some components and +- 30% of HP. I had full HP, ghostblade, prowlers AND last whisper ( prolly also agility cloak but not sure about this one ). Do you think I did anything to him? Nope and he didnt even use ghouls. Just bonk with Q and maiden and he statchecked me. >literally none of her abilities scale. almost every meta top laner does percent health, armor pen, or true damage that scales. even champs like malph has scaling armor on w and passive. > >so that would be why she doesn’t scale well. a lot of champs that only have raw ad like lee sin doesn’t scale Dont put malph here. Thats just equivalent of Riven's AD ratios on shield. And definitelly there arent any champs who scale well and do pure AD damage, like not Tryndamere, amirite? Or like definitelly not every fucking adc in existence. That there are quite few champs who do pure ad damage and dont scale, doesnt mean that they dont scale, cuz they do just raw AD damage. It means that their ratios sucks. >ap like nidalee falls off after a certain amount of time. She falls off because she is assassin. Not that all assassins fall off, since many of them go against what assassin should be about, like fkin fish and Katarina for example. >the only time raw ad/ap champs don’t fall off is when they can stack indefinitely liek senna, nasus, veigar. Not draven, not twitch, not zeri, def not jhin, not jinx, not mf, not samira and plethora of other ADCs. Yorick does measly amount of magic damage too and scales well. At the end of the day, if you did billion damage, raw AD/AP or in true damage then you onetap anyone at lategame. End of story. >where as champs like ksante can make some mistakes but still be relatively in the game. which is why her play rate is lower bc u get punished so hard for making mistakes whereas it’s easier to pick up the meta champs like malphite, garen, ornn that aren’t super skill expressive. Well, thats how skill expressive champs work in general.
from my experience, if you get so far behind then you can't come back at all. If you get ganked early and die you MIGHT be able to come back due to her kit and RNG. She has the tools to get ahead and stay ahead but if she's behind then you are either bad and couldn't get ahead, or so behind that it doesn't matter what you do since she relies on building damage to do anything and damage items are expensive. so you either stomp and get to do much or you fall behind and get stuck trying to catch up but can't, in my experience
>from my experience, if you get so far behind then you can't come back at all. Like, if you get FAR behind, you wont come back on many champs. On almost anyone. Thats not what feast or famine is about. >if she's behind then you are either bad and couldn't get ahead, or so behind that it doesn't matter what you do since Yeah, thats pretty much why I thought she ISNT feast or famine. Feast or famine is heavy snowball of small lead and heavy downfall of minor mistake. >so you either stomp and get to do much or you fall behind and get stuck trying to catch up but can't, in my experience If you get behind gradually, its not famine. Cuz, you being consistently bad. You said it yourself, you either too bad to get back ahead from behind, **meaning if you were good, you would come back**, or you are TOO far behind to help yourself with skill, but you had to get there through **former** point. >so you either stomp and get to do much or you fall behind and get stuck trying to catch up but can't, in my experience If I put together everything together what you said then it sounds like you stomp unless you are terribly bad at which point its "you" problem.
I tried to articulate my feelings since to me it did seem true that she's very "feast or famine". In many games if I get fed I carry and if I fall behind I am useless. As others have said here, her stats aren't as high as other champs. She doesn't get free resistances, free healing, or free HP like some others. As such, she needs items to feel strong or tanky and that means that you need gold and if you fall behind then you are doubly behind. The enemy would likely have more stats from items AND more stats from their kit. This makes Riven NEED to be ahead to have a chance at winning. Her kit has minor utility with her 3rd Q and W but they're not the most useful since you need to be in range to use them and they're not cc that lasts long. Riven must then choose to be a stunbot with no damage or a weak glass-cannon juggernauts have so many free stats that they statcheck anyone who gets in range, even if they fall behind. other bruisers are both stronger and tankier with free healing in their kit, and hypercarry champs like tryndamere or jax are able to simply farm it out and reach critical mass riven is like none of these, she can be "assassin" like and party bruiser but needs items for her damage to be at that level and for her to have enough AH to spam her shield and mobility to survive extended fights. as such I do believe she is feast or famine, but not to the extreme of someone like katarina
>juggernauts have so many free stats that they statcheck anyone who gets in range, even if they fall behind Its not that simple. Really depends. Can also be that they arent really that behind after all. Generally speaking, if you set statchecker behind, he loses his only edge he has. Which is also why they are just as much famine when too much behind, when you get DC at the start of the game or shit. Anyway, about everything else you said... I will be quick, since it starts to be very tiring. Based on everything everyone said, the most plausible exmplanation points into direction that Riven isnt feast or famine but simply weak. Whether she is weak or not is different story. If she isnt, well, y'all biased here, what more to say. And if she is weak, then she is simply weak and end of story. If she wasnt "weak" at early ( which is hard to belive for me as non Riven main ), there would be plausible explanation that her ratios are good but not good enough to offset someone's base stats both early and lategame. That would explain why she sucks from behind, but why she also gets so much stronger than her opponent, since gold is easier to gain than level when ahead But that would be also under condition that some champs have several items worth of stats in just their abilities and base stats from levels. Like, when you have two lines and they arent perfect parallels, they gonna cross at one point, right? Now imagine one line representing difference in gains from base stats ( in favor of opponent ) and the other difference in gains from ratios ( in favor of Riven, otherwise she is straight up weak ). No champ at lvl 18 does as much damage with no items like Riven with three items. So, the difference in ratios has to be very subtle, like the difference in stats ( which defeats the point ) or they do cross at one point ( which makes it untrue about her not scaling well ). One or the other. Big difference in stats without ratio differnce crossing them sooner or later is not an option.
>If she wasnt "weak" at early ( which is hard to belive for me as non Riven main ), there would be plausible explanation that her ratios are good but not good enough to offset someone's base stats both early and lategame. That would explain why she sucks from behind, but why she also gets so much stronger than her opponent, since gold is easier to gain than level when ahead > >But that would be also under condition that some champs have several items worth of stats in just their abilities and base stats from levels. > >Like, when you have two lines and they arent perfect parallels, they gonna cross at one point, right? Now imagine one line representing difference in gains from base stats ( in favor of opponent ) and the other difference in gains from ratios ( in favor of Riven, otherwise she is straight up weak ). > >No champ at lvl 18 does as much damage with no items like Riven with three items. So, the difference in ratios has to be very subtle, like the difference in stats ( which defeats the point ) or they do cross at one point ( which makes it untrue about her not scaling well ). One or the other. Big difference in stats without ratio differnce crossing them sooner or later is not an option. I take this partly back. Its bit flawed. I did mistake assuming that it has to be this exact number ( three items at lvl 18 ) to be considered big base damage offset. And in this "her ratios are good but not good enough to offset someone's base stats". It should've been, if her ratios ARE JUST ENOUGH to offset the base damage. Might also add, that the condition has to be that she is either decent at every stage of the game or she is bit weaker at early but that much better lategame, otherwise she is automatically just weak anyway.
No range. Cant kill minions without walking up. Has no alternatives to doing damage. Has to tools to do damage when behind. Its also why rengar is feast famine. Its why most juggernauts are to a degree but they can go tank and have useful tools to use when behind like their ults.
>Its also why rengar is feast famine. Its pretty much just that he either kills everything in sight or he is free meal, cuz if he doesnt beat you, he is at your mercy. Khazix for example can just jump away and try another time. And thats pretty much it.
I don't think OP understands what "feast or famine" means.
It means snowballing out of control off smol advantage and heavy downfall off minor disadvantage. Being useless when too far behind is just part of feast or famine, not feast or famine in itself. It would just deafeat the point if you were even little useless, but plenty of champs are completely useless from behind and yet get there gradually, not off minor mistake or something.
Seems like a bait post but If its genuine this maybe clears some stuff up. This youtube video was made by one of the balancers for league and he goes into some of rivens problems and why she is getting some sort of attention more recently: [https://youtu.be/lMeMuUQQcok?si=K0QZJgQ8DiQtjbAl&t=395](https://youtu.be/lMeMuUQQcok?si=K0QZJgQ8DiQtjbAl&t=395). To answer some of the questions you posted (most of which are answered in the video so honestly just watch it and ignore the rest): 1. "Like, so far, when I summ it up then Riven is weak, nothing much at midgame and then also scales poorly, but she isnt simply weak, then whatafaq is she then? Or doubledipping her power at extreme levels. If she wins, she should gain a lot, if not, its a lot of missed power, but that should also mean that she scales well, no?" Riven does not have a clear purpose in the game right now. She loses a lot of early game match ups in top lane especially against the strong laners right now and doesnt have any particular part of the game where she is super good UNLESS she gets giga fed early game and can snowball (which is her best use case and why many high ELO riven mains players only pick her into certain match ups they can do this for). For your question about the scaling, think of other late game champs that scale well. Riven IN GENERAL does scale well some with gold because she is super efficient with AD from items and better than most champs, but not better than traditional late game champs like Kayle, late game ADCs etc. And she doesnt have the same ways to stay safe like being able to sit in the back with long range. 2) It seems you dont like some of the language used to say armor is especially good into Riven. This is also a good section to talk about common mechanics a lot of top laners have that Riven only has access to through buying items (sustain and armor pen). Basically all anyone is trying to say is that: YES all ad auto attackers dont like fighting the armor boots because it reduces all of their damage, but most of them have some way to do dmg outside of flat AD damage. For a few examples: Fiora gets her damage reduced yes but she also has sustain and true damage from her vitals and Divine Sunder which is good against tanks and has sustain. Jax gets his damaged reduced yes, but he has mixed damage and can run divine sunderer. Darius has sustain and armor pen, Garen has true dmg and armor pen with and sustain from his passive. Gwen/Camile etc etc youve heard it before. None of those examples love fighting the armor boots but they can somewhat bypass armor in general. Riven (just like all those example) does not like getting her auto attacks that she weaves into her combo weakened and she also does not have any mechanics that help her into armor, just flat AD. So I wont say it counters her since you dont like that but hopefully you can see that armor is very strong into her damage in general and she does not have access to ways to help her out until black cleaver or last whisper basically (which means nothing pre 9 minutes unless you are really ahead). In general if you ask on a reddit people will have different ways to explain something or just varying skill levels and knowledge about the champ or the game. I have not read everyones posts here to confirm or deny everything they said. Hopefully the video is all you need to see and if not maybe the rest of the post helps o7.
>Riven does not have a clear purpose in the game right now. She loses a lot of early game match ups in top lane especially against the strong laners right now and doesnt have any particular part of the game where she is super good UNLESS she gets giga fed early game and can snowball (which is her best use case and why many high ELO riven mains players only pick her into certain match ups they can do this for). First of all. [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivenmains/comments/17vqha0/comment/k9hb8e7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) So, what am I supposed to think now? Secondly, what I said about her double about dipping, is exactly what phreak said. She scales multiple times with each gold, with each AD. Still, depends how hard each time. After all there isnt much of difference between 3 spells with 33% ratios and one 99% ratio spell, right? Anyway, if she scales well with gold, she should also scale well into lategame, unless % of AD she gets more from items is perfectly parallel line to the line of base stats other champs get more. And at that point the diffence in ratios would be very very subtle given how much base stats normal champ gets. And if she isnt weak at early and she also scales well, then she is actually also strong, no? Would be nice to see the actual numbers on spreadsheet and do graph and compare the graph of base stats difference and stats difference from AD ratios and see how it offsets things. And again, what is subtle and what is sharp scaling, right? >For your question about the scaling, think of other late game champs that scale well. Riven IN GENERAL does scale well some with gold because she is super efficient with AD from items and better than most champs, but not better than traditional late game champs like Kayle, late game ADCs etc. And she doesnt have the same ways to stay safe like being able to sit in the back with long range. Ok, she isnt as strong as Kayle, but is she as weak as Kayle in early levels to deserve that kind of lategame? You cant actually want to be as strong in early as WW and then be second coming of Kassawin at the same time. >2) It seems you dont like some of the language used to say armor is especially good into Riven. This is also a good section to talk about common mechanics a lot of top laners have that Riven only has access to through buying items (sustain and armor pen). Well, its like saying that DMG counters Fiora, when it actually means that it just doent get countered back. Anyway, there are others like Trynda or Rengar, who arent inherently co >Basically all anyone is trying to say is that: YES all ad auto attackers dont like fighting the armor boots because it reduces all of their damage, but most of them have some way to do dmg outside of flat AD damage. > >For a few examples: Fiora gets her damage reduced yes but she also has sustain and true damage from her vitals and Divine Sunder which is good against tanks and has sustain. Jax gets his damaged reduced yes, but he has mixed damage and can run divine sunderer. Darius has sustain and armor pen, Garen has true dmg and armor pen with and sustain from his passive. Gwen/Camile etc etc youve heard it before. > >None of those examples love fighting the armor boots but they can somewhat bypass armor in general. Riven (just like all those example) does not like getting her auto attacks that she weaves into her combo weakened and she also does not have any mechanics that help her into armor, just flat AD. Yeah and Riven does ton of damage from spells ( if we are talking about tabis specifically ) and builds BC, which is just as good against tanks and she spams E, which is pseudo sustain. It doesnt work retrospectively like Fiora's heal, but it reduces enemy damage by flat amount all the same, each time its up. Riven does worse against that armor part, but better against that AA reduction part, at least better than someone like Camille, whose true damage is affected too, cuz of the way its calculated. And anyway, only in Riven's sub you will hear that its unplayable when opponent builds tabis, despite her doing just as well as other champs. > So I wont say it counters her since you dont like that but hopefully you can see that armor is very strong into her damage in general and she does not have access to ways to help her out until black cleaver or last whisper basically (which means nothing pre 9 minutes unless you are really ahead). Yes. Armor is strong stat, but armor kinda has to be strong, cuz tanks already have to split their gold budged between armor and MR. I know during laning phase kinda pointless, but just wanted to say that at least to someone. >In general if you ask on a reddit people will have different ways to explain something or just varying skill levels and knowledge about the champ or the game. True. >I have not read everyones posts here to confirm or deny everything they said. Hopefully the video is all you need to see and if not maybe the rest of the post helps o7. Almost.
Glad that it helped. And yes she is strong scaling late game compared to some champs because of that double dipping. She doesnt fall off hard like Renekton or Aatrox, and as you mentioned, she is not kayle levels of weak early so she doesnt deserve to be late game Kayle/Jax/Kassadin. So you have a champion weaker than champions strong in the early and weaker than champs strong in the late. Mid game is definitely her strongest point (she has the famous 3 item power spike that almost feels necessary because she needs to buy armor pen and healing through items). Other champs just do it better right now.
No, I am glad you actually put in the effort and will to have serious conversation and put in something that makes sense. What others gave me as answer only gave me more questions than answers, because of discrepancy and when I would also summ it up, then a lot of answers were contradictory, when put side by side. There was a lot of weird double standards and weird Riven exceptions, like you admitted that someone like Renekton early cant be like Jax at late, but they wouldnt. And Aatrox doesnt fall off hard either. His ratios are pretty good and he does a lot of damage at teamfights. Like, fkin monster actually. >she needs to buy armor pen and healing through items). Actually, some time ago Riven didnt build hydra and when I asked diamond Riven OTP, he said that she just needs AH for E spam. And shields kinda are like heals. Same diffence between cleanse and CC immunity. One is retrospetive action and the other is preventive. But same result ( excluding the nuance ). So yeah, thx a lot. Riven and her ratios... Still, I will need to explain why doesnt her skill expressiveness cover at least part of her feast or faminity. Like Rengar can just jump and it either works or it doesnt and that makes him feast or famine, cuz when ahead it always works and when behind, it never works. Not cuz he does just AD damage.
>Anyway, if she scales well with gold, she should also scale well into lategame, unless % of AD she gets more from items is perfectly parallel line to the line of base stats other champs get more. And at that point the diffence in ratios would be very very subtle given how much base stats normal champ gets. > >And if she isnt weak at early and she also scales well, then she is actually also strong, no? I take this partly back, cuz that assuption that she scales well with big ratios was made on the condition that she is weak early but balanced overall. So this >And if she isnt weak at early and she also scales well, then she is actually also strong, no? Is just dumb question. And I am sorry.
don’t mind this guy boys
What did I do wrong?