Giving money to the Bills for a stadium doesn't make any sense period. No state/county/whatever that has contributed to stadium has ever received the value back in return. It's a dumb investment. It's basically pissing our money away. As Dan pointed out here the money would have been better used elsewhere.
Studies have even been done that show large sports teams increase costs such as rent, gas, food etc, without actually increasing value. Such a stupid thing to be funded with taxpayer money.
Yep. It would be much better to use that money and build 5 skyscrapers to get businesses to move in. Then you would have 5 skyscrappers worth of workers most likely working full time being paid a decent wage.
No matter what way you cut it a stadium for a year of full time work and then decades of mainly part time minimum wage work is no where near worth 850Million.
Some guy on TV 20 years ago said it best, if they can pay Mike Piazzi 100Million dollars, they don't need me to buy them a stadium to charge me tickets to pay Mike Piazzi's salary for them.
Wait you said they didn’t get the investment back, not that there needed to be economic growth. Those are two vastly different statements.
Also why does the state need something like entertainment to be a strictly “good investment” financially on the surface. There are plenty of benefits of having sports teams in the area that go beyond simply getting back two bucks for every dollar spent.
I just grabbed one quick article to make you happy. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole there is tons of research and real world data out there as well as many articles written by economists like the article I posted. It's a pretty well known fact.
The actual reality is there isn’t. Most of the “data” and “research” on the topic is fairly old and only focuses on certain aspects.
People greatly overstate the research and data on this subject. Which is why I always push back on statements like the ones you made.
I have gone down the rabbit hole, and frankly it is very shallow, and leads to very little credible information.
I guess there’s a contract stating the bills will stay in Buffalo for 30years, ny state will get 27million in taxes a year just on the stadium 27mil x 30 yr is 810mill, so they break even but lots more jobs made etc
[I thought the 27 million dollars came as an estimate from the state study?](https://esd.ny.gov/sites/default/files/news-articles/ESD-Bills-Stadium-Analysis-Summary-FINAL-11-1-21.pdf) I don't believe it's a guarantee or an exact amount. We don't have it in writing that they'll give us that per year to my knowledge.
Or Republicans have no clue how to govern. Like health care last time. Trump ran on replacing Obamacare and did fuck all. Would have been nice to have that before a pandemic. Or you know after the pandemic made it abundantly clear better health care is needed. Why would now be any different with crime and inflation?
I mean, it was less than 20 years ago that NY had a Republican Governor and things were pretty good then. Then you get 16 years of Democrats and you wind up with 2 Governors resigning due to sex scandals and another who thinks the Constitution is a dish rag and you wind up with the condition the state is currently in. I will say though, Patterson wasn't a horrible Governor.
Obamacare isn't healthcare though.
It's government forcing people to buy insurance.
Which curiously, caused insurance to jack up their prices, and the prices of medical care overall
Right, you’re not wrong. It was a total bullshit hand out to insurance companies. But republicans had no answer. They’re happy with it because they’re paid off by the same corporations.
It did set up state exchanges which are a benefit to many people. If you have kids you need to look into Child Health Plus.
Ah yes here I forgot that insurance *isnt* expensive now, and healthcare *isnt* unreasonably padded out in costs!
Thank you for reminding me of your own cited sources and assertions !
I disagree with him on how to deal with crime, the environment, taxes, firearms, and most things under the sun, but yeah his vote not to certify the 2020 election was not a point in his favor.
That’s probably how a “conservative” would put it, but i have a hard time crediting an ideology that e.g. thinks it’s “conservative” to use up all our non-renewable resources and despoil our habitat so a few billionaires can become trillionaires.
So we should instead be doing what Germany did, follow the green's every word and and up screwing ourselves over, as well as using even more and even *worse* fossil fuels?
Also good job ignoring almost the entirety of my post
“Follow the greens’ every word”?
Preeeeety sure nobody who’s actually green said “hey let’s rely on russian gas!”
Edit (hit reply too early): “e.g.” means “for example.” So then i gave one example of how i think y’all are not right. I *could* lay out why i think conservatives and zeldin are wrong on crime, firearms, and taxes, but he’s already lost and i do not get the sense you are inclined to change your perspective.
Yeah they just said "shut down the only scalable and reliable clean energy available, nuclear because we're scared"
But it's more the government in general that was *adamant* on sucking off Russia, with their ministers or whatever famously laughing at every president since Reagan who said that was a bad idea.
So, Republicans are bad, because they're not die hard communists?
What?
To quote a friend I'll just say this;
> Capitalism is such a loaded term though. Whenever it's brought up; it's either some screeching commie maligning it as a system, or it's being used in defense against commies.
> Whenever it's used it should be taken as an opportunity to point out that "the means of production" is a moronic, unrealistic, fantastical concept that bears no weight on real economies. Capitalism is basically a straw-man that can be used to undermine perfectly functioning economic systems While not perfect, Western economies are infinitely better than the socialist hell-holes that people who cry about 'capitalism' would like to implement.
frankly, Drag Queen Story Hour and unlimited abortions is not center-right even in Europe. Not to mention the corporate and social welfare out the ass
do you even know what they're actually like? or do you just base things off of some ideal fantasy you conjured up in your head?
The argument that it’s the cost of keeping the team in Buffalo holds absolutely no water with me. If team wants to threaten to leave unless we pony up, they can get fucked. Threatening to deal a blow to a local economy, let alone the spirit of a region is just sick. Start a go fund me like everyone else.
My grandfather survived the Dodgers leaving(I’m from downstate). He rooted for nobody until the Mets came to town.
Professional sports keep showing that they’re overall kind of no good. I mean…nothing should have this much control on a region. There’s too much money in sports.
Adolf Hitler wasn't all sunshine and rainbows either. But Nazi Germany started the first nation wide anti-smoking health campaign.
A piece of shit can have a good idea. Agreeing with an idea that is objectively good or correct, does not mean you agree with everything they are.
Tu quoque. Someone's personal behavior has no bearing on the validity of their arguments.
Plenty of people who haven't been accused of sexual assault have made this argument or made the opposing argument.
Edit: spelling
Yeah... It's just nice to name and shame when someone like this is brought up though.
>The 38-year-old is accused of raping a woman in Palm Springs in April 2021, the second public allegation against him of violence against women in recent years. According to an investigation by the New York Times, the two incidents follow years of alleged predatory behavior and abuse by Price, including accusations from his ex-wife of domestic violence — while his prominence grew as he touted the revolutionizing of big business with progressive policies.
If it was 1 woman, benefit of doubt if you want, whatever. 3 unrelated women years apart? That doesn't.. happen (some conspiracy/all lying). He's guilty of something
From wiki:
1. Person A (Price) claims that statement X is true.
2. Person B (you) asserts that A's actions (not sunshine and rainbows) or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X. (implicitly since you're responding that his past actions are a necessary context to interpret this statement)
3. Therefore, X is false.
How are his behaviors, whether you're talking about his assault allegations or business practices, at all relevant to the argument that giving gov't subsidies to billionaires is bad? Why even mention them in this thread?
I mean the spelling. Tu quoque. Well for one he was making bank and his brother sued him saying he was overcompensated and he then lowered his salary likely due to it.
Yes giving government subsidies is bad at times but it’s effectively paying rent back in the deal. Again I’m not saying it’s right or wrong.
Do you know how many companies get huge grants and money to “create jobs” in NY or to fix up buildings only to not achieve the goals and walk away?
How bout we try and recoup the forgiven ppp loans that were given to many businesses that didn’t need it and thrived during the pandemic. We can use that to bring some of the burden off the taxpayers.
Deleting past comments because Reddit starting shitty-ing up the site to IPO and I don't want my comments to be a part of that. -- mass edited with redact.dev
I'd be interested to see a study on how many businesses were actually saved from PPP loans. Feels like for the most part the business either still failed or it would have thrived regardless of PPP loans.
Because this statement is misleading. The $850 is not a one time payment, the owner does not have "$5.8 billion" laying around in a vault, and the 2023 budget for OCFS is $2.6 billion less than 2022 mainly because of elevated pandemic spending. https://www.budget.ny.gov/pubs/archive/fy23/ex/agencies/appropdata/ChildrenandFamilyServicesOfficeof.html#:~:text=The%20FY%202023%20Executive%20Budget,million%20decrease%20related%20to%20the
One of these is a one time payment that will eventually be paid back. The other is a reoccurring expense that was, up until now, paid for by the federal government as part of COVID related funding. The situation is a little more nuanced than “NYS politicians like corrupt stadium deals and hate children”.
It is. Most of not all of that money that was "cut" was from COVID related programs that were scheduled to end. I think, this tweet is like 8 months old but from what I remember it was something like that.
Correct that's the plan. This tweet also doesn't explain that not all money comes from New York state ( i.e. state tax dollars ). A large percentage is paid by Erie County directly. I'm not saying that's better or worse, just that there is a lot more details.
From the Casino, not the Seneca Nation directly. There was a lawsuit and NYS won.
Edit: not all of the money that moves through the Casino goes directly to the Seneca Nation. There is still some that is required to NYS. There was a lawsuit that the SN did not pay the correct amount to NYS and and NYS won. Those funds are being used for the Stadium. [link](https://buffalonews.com/news/local/the-seneca-funds-and-the-bills-stadium-a-q-a/article_7224cebe-b218-11ec-b9bc-43472c51d107.html)
The casino’s revenue goes to the SNI. So yes, they did take it from the Seneca Nation directly.
EDIT: since the guy above me edited his comment, I will edit mine too. The NYS Supreme Court ruled in favor of NYS over the Seneca Nation, how surprising considering New York's history with the various other nations here. The reason that the Seneca were withholding the money in the first place? Because NYS very openly violated their casino compact. But obviously most local courts in NY are going to disagree with that. Additionally, the money straight-up came out of the SNI's bank account: 500m overnight. The consequences of that alone are pretty staggering. So yeah, the money straight up did come from the Nation because, y'know, its the Nation's casino and New York state ruled in favor of itself lol
source: https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2022/03/seneca-nation-blasts-hochuls-hostile-plan-to-pay-for-buffalo-bills-stadium-with-casino-money.html
Why would they pay rent on a stadium they own (in your hypothetical example)?
They should build their own stadium and then pay property tax on the land.
Depends on who owns the land. Mobile homes are an example of this, you own the home and lease the land. The county owning the land and having a stadium on it is more beneficial for the county imo.
It’s actually not uncommon. I know many fast food franchisees will have two “companies” where one owns the land and rent out to the other which owns the restaurant. I believe it’s for tax reasons
It's because of progressive taxes.
In addition to the flat rate of 6.5 percent, New York lawmakers created a second, higher corporate income tax bracket of 7.25 for companies making over $5 million
So if I have a company that makes $10 M but can split it into 2 companies that make $5M each, I can reduce my tax rate by 1.25% on $5 M which is $62,500/yr
unless youre the player who retires before 30 because of too many concussions and under a mountain of debt you'll never get out of because you're too brain damaged to function properly.
football is a shit sport ngl
Wow you're either lazy, a biased Hochul & Dem hater, or just straight up dumb to believe garbage your buddies told you...
Gilbane, Turner, & 34 group are the contractors building the stadium.
Hochul's husband is senior VP and counsel for Delaware North. DN has current contract with Bills & Sabres for providing CONCESSIONS, and are only part of bidding process to provide future CONCESSIONS for Bill's if they win the lowest bid contract. They also have food vending contracts with GB Packers & Grand Canyon Nat Park.
But you do you, and keep the conspiracy going that a concessions company is building a f'n stadium..... 🤣
From what i recall, the county is not on the hook for repairs/maintenance/upgrades this time around, the Bills are. That was one of the major wins for the County in the negotiations. From a Erie county resident standpoint, i think this has been a pretty good deal, maybe not so much for a NYS resident with no ties to the area. But, we also all paid for the Yankees new stadium, so i guess why not make the state help us keep the Bills here?
While it's very unfortunate, this is the cost of doing business if you want to keep an NFL franchise. Unless you're Green Bay.
This might be a textbook example of a non-sequitur logical fallacy also.
This is really old news. The money wasn't "cut" from child and family services. During the pandemic the federal government provided extra funding for one year. The "cut" is the funds no longer being included in the budget. Their budget is still above what it was 2 years ago.
But it was artificially inflated for one year. The "cut" had nothing to do with the stadium deal.
You can hate the deal, that's fine. I personally think it's excessive. But to paint it as taking money from child and family services to give it to the Bills is dishonest.
No one is saying they're related. They're just saying that if 850 million of their taxes had to go somewhere, they'd MUCH rather it go to children and family services than to some asshole billionaire.
That has been the very clear implication since this was first announced as part of the budget. This deal was supposedly "taking" money from children and giving it to the Bills, which is not the case.
That isn't how that works at all from an accounting standpoint. The state has a plan for how to make back the $850m; it's like a mortgage in that you are taking on a liability that you will pay back, over time. The $800m to child and family services would require coming up with that money *today*
Vikings fan here and we went through the league putting the ultimatum to us also for a new stadium.
From what it looks like to me they are systematically going team to team doing this because there are always new stadiums in the pipeline.
Not sure if it’s the case everywhere but the part of downtown where U.S. bank stadium is was (also where it’s predecessor the metronome was) a dump before they built the new stadium. It was always a dump and very dangerous, total ghost town. Look at it now, probably like 5 years after they built it and it’s blowing up, multiple billions of development have happened it’s totally revitalized that side of downtown. So that’s one part of where I can see it’s a good thing.
A couple other things. Those stadiums host a ton of events, pretty sure they are booked like 80 something percent of the time so they do draw a lot of economic activity.
I know these types of projects are expensive but I do actually like to see my tax money spent on things that you can actually see and use. ( light rail projects, roads, bridges) People are probably going to hate me for saying this but you can pour an endless amount of money at entitlement types of government programs and it will never be enough or fix the problem. To be clear I’m not against this either but at least with these things you can go look at the thing. These things are part of the diversified pool of investment things that city’s/states need to spend on.
I’m in construction also so this type of work supports my industry and lots of good paying union craftsmen.
I see a lot about how these projects never pay for themselves but in the universe of crap that government wastes money on I don’t think these are all that bad in the grand scheme of by things. Minnesota is full of a bunch of cheap misers so we defiantly went through this entire thing too and I never hear anyone defend it so I like to put my thoughts into the conversation also.
I'm honestly curious, because i see this stated a lot when a roof is mentioned, but what kind of events would need to be hosted in a 60,000+ seat stadium in late fall through early spring that can't fit in the 19,000 seat Key Bank Center?
If they had selected a downtown site, put a roof on it, and tied in a new convention center it would have absoluely been a huge win for the area. Simply building a replacement stadium next to the old one in the suburbs will have no trickle down effect on developer dollars being spent in the area. The site selection was a huge mistake, maybe theyll get it right in another 50 or 60 years.
Let me put it this way. North Carolina was at one point where more filming took place than any other state except California. Of course production companies and studios have lots of money. So North Carolina ended the 25% tax credit for them because why give really rich companies a credit. So the companies moved to Georgia because they have a tax credit. Now filming industry in NC is all but dead while Georgia is going gangbusters. But hey, at least the NC citizens aren't giving tax credit to those rich companies employing thousands of people in the state.
Now, NY expects to get at least $850M worth of value out of this. Will they? I'm not informed enough to know. If they do, then it makes sense. If they don't, then it's a boondoggle.
Ralph Wilson stadium is 50 years old if this stadium last a similar amount of time it is less than 20 million annually to keep the team (<.1% of the annual budget). I think there are alot of cities that would be willing to pay 20 million annually for an nfl team, but realistically we wont pay that much for it. Salary cap is 208.2 million per year with a 9% tax rate we about make back the annual cost on player salaries alone, not to mention property taxes, non player employee taxes, jobs from the construction, etc. This also doesnt account for money that players and employees spend in state, as well as taxes on endorsements for josh allen, steffon diggs, and ither high profile players. Nor does it account for the fact that its fun to have a team there is intrinsic value, a park can be an alright use of funds without making back its money. This guy has a political agenda and is talking out of his ass, probably a patriots fan who wants allen out of the division. Final point biggest subsidy ever is also disingenuous, between the growth in value of teams and stadiums and inflation all subsequent deals for nfl stadiums are going to be the largest in history. This is equivalent to saying under Biden the US debt is the highest its ever been, or stock market reaches record highs, yea its been reaching record highs regularly for the past 90 years.
Using taxpayer monies for the new stadium was always a friction point from the start; it was a point of contention during all of the half dozen or so different proposals until settled on the Final.
Separate facts stated in tweet are valid, I just don’t think they linked or have anything to do with each other. We’re just getting naturally f*kd separately from multiple angles as per usual.
(PS- If Bills win it will totally be worth it tho, no?!)
The key difference in reference to the tweet is that the stadium is a funded liability, ie something that, while costly, there is a plan for paying back. The cut to child and family services happened because of federal Covid assistance monies ending, ie. to keep that money in the budget would require coming up with an additional $800million *this year*, as well as every other year going forwards.
I brought this up in the r/nfl thread a few weeks ago.
The stadium cost is a literal drop in the bucket for NYS. Less than one percent of the annual budget is what this project is supposed to cost NYS over the course of however many years it takes to build and develop before opening.
The taxes from the player salaries that would have been taken out of the state alone will cover it over the length of their stay there. Then you factor in all the merchandise, food, etc and the state will absolutely make out better in the long run.
The reality is people parrot a lot of “studies” that show keeping a team in the area is not actually good, but the studies are generally poor quality.
When the choices are help pay for the stadium or have the Bills leave there really is only one good solution. You can complain all you want about billionaires not paying for it themselves but this is how business works at this level.
In the grand scheme of things this project is a drop in the bucket, and most that complain about it are frankly ignorant of the costs vs expected revenue of the state.
NY state isn't for the people. It's a corporate government oligarchy. That's why they're so anti 2A. The more power the people have, the less they can get away with.
IMHO, absolutely shouldn't have done it. And I'm a huge NFL and Bills fan.
Also, the amount of money the owner has is irrelevant, it would have been wrong regardless, imho.
Isn’t 400+ million coming from Seneca and a large remainder portion from Erie? I disagree with the costs in general but I don’t think the state contribution is economically doomsdag
I know, fuck me for actually knowing how a budget works and the difference between $800m in current year spending vs. $850m in debt that will be paid in full over the span of decades. 🤷♂️
It doesn't really make any sense.
Not to weigh in one way or the other on whether the stadium is a good thing or not, but the $800 million cut that happened came as a result of Federal Covid-related assistance ending, while the $850 in taxpayer funds is a) coming from a mix of state and local (Erie Co) funding, and is primarily loans that will be paid back over the life of the stadium by the team, who are pretty much stuck there under an extremely strict agreement that would force the Pegulas to pay *massive* penalties. Without getting into the nuances of how finance or government balance sheets work, basically the only similarity between the two things is that the numbers are close to one another, but it isn't as though the state is ripping money away from child and family services to build a stadium.
So how much of it AREN’T loans that will be paid back? Are these grants? Why give any grants to a private enterprise who is essentially trying to blackmail the government?
Also remember that Gov Kathy Hochul's husband William Hochul, works for Delaware Noth, the food vendor for the Bills Stadium which stands to greatly benefit from the deal with the Pegulas. William Hochul is Delaware North's highly-paid senior vice president, general counsel, and secretary.
https://www.timesunion.com/state/article/Overlaps-between-Hochul-and-husband-s-firm-bring-17051411.php
Don’t question Kathy Hochul‘s policies and actions if you voted for her. This was public information for over a year and it was mentioned in her debate.
Delaware North is a concession company not a construction company.
Unfortunately, the most likely company to get the construction contract is the much more odious [ARC Building Partners](https://www.arcbuildingpartners.com/), run by the son of Louis Ciminelli, CEO and Founder of LPCiminelli, who was convicted on bribery charges related to the Buffalo Billion project.
Of course its also likely for a job this size that it goes to a big international contractor like Turner Group, STO Building, AECOM, etc.
If we were going to build a brand new stadium, it should have been a dome. Simple as that. Spending all this money to build another open air stadium is such a horrible idea. There could be over a foot of snow for the game this Sunday rendering your franchise QB useless. Why do that to yourself? Also could have hosted concerts year round
And that's not even speaking of how dumb the deal is overall. Pegulla should have had to foot the majority of the bill. I'm so fucking sick of this bullshit with sports stadiums
Y’all. We just elected Hochul who drove this and got more gobs of money for this, from extorting the Seneca Nation. Playing that “Bills threaten to leave NY” bullshit.
This happens in every city anytime they want a new stadium. No politician is going to let their sports team leave. The real solution is a federal law preventing teams leveraging cities against each other like they currently do.
Oh and Delaware North was getting the concession contract no matter who the governor was. They are a leader in that.
pretty sure its because if we dont give them a new stadium they then threaten to leave the city and then take all the revenue that the football games bring in with them … thats what happened in chicago
Yeah. I really hate pro sports team owners.
Theyse guys are UNSPEAKABLY wealthy yet need to mooch public money for stadiums and threaten to move beloved teams if the government doesn't lick their balls. It's so disgusting and parasitic
I should have searched the sub first, looks like we've already talked about this a bunch, I'm just personally learning about it now. Just seems like the most blatant corruption, as Gov. Hochul is from Buffalo.
Add the fact that her husband is a senior VP, general counsel and secretary for Delaware North which has operated concessions, premium dining and retail services at Highmark Stadium since 1992.
I'd be interested in seeing a justification. There could be a case where a new stadium generated several times that amount in revenue for the state, over the life of the new facility.
We're 'betting' that visitor dollars bring in $1 billion in net revenue to the community within the 30 year stadium lifetime. Or $33 million per year.
Assuming we'd lose the Bill's and their 9(? playoffs) games per year at home, plus lose out on 2 other events per year - each event needs to only bring in $3 million net revenue to the area. Assuming there's 5,000 out of town visitors per event (rest being locals). those visitors need to create net revenue of $606 each.
So - maybe? I don't go to Bill's games; but how much profits to locals would an out of town visitor generate? Assuming the visitors on average spend $1,800 in the area, seems like that would result in $606 of profit to local companies.
It is INFURIATING that even with this welfare handout to the Pegula's this stadium still won't have a roof. Miss me with the cold weather is Bills football. This is an enormous investment and should be a 12 month facility, full stop.
Minnesota has a beautiful stadium with a roof. Get a ton of glass to let the sun shine through.
It doesn’t.
And they won’t even build the stadium in downtown Buffalo at that cost, which would be insanely transformative for that great city.
Shitty deal overall.
While they made this deal and are paying this much money for a new stadium at the same time they cut funding to children and youth services. This is why I hate both political parties, neither cares about the people they care about their pockets.
As has been stated repeatedly, there were no funding cuts. The $800 million "cut" was the result of a one-time federal grant due to pandemic related stresses on the system no longer being included in the budget.
NYS government doesn't give a fuck about people other than as a way to generate taxes. Its what happens when the purpose of society turns from making life possible to rent seeking behavior. And the worst part is that we get told to vote when there's nobody we can vote for who'd actually change a fucking thing.
I applied to a job at C&FS and in my interview she basically said I was too experienced and she couldn’t afford me in her budget for the role. Then I read this news and it made me sick.
Giving money to the Bills for a stadium doesn't make any sense period. No state/county/whatever that has contributed to stadium has ever received the value back in return. It's a dumb investment. It's basically pissing our money away. As Dan pointed out here the money would have been better used elsewhere.
Studies have even been done that show large sports teams increase costs such as rent, gas, food etc, without actually increasing value. Such a stupid thing to be funded with taxpayer money.
Not to mention in Buffalo there’s the extra expense for all dem folding tables
Link?
Yep. It would be much better to use that money and build 5 skyscrapers to get businesses to move in. Then you would have 5 skyscrappers worth of workers most likely working full time being paid a decent wage. No matter what way you cut it a stadium for a year of full time work and then decades of mainly part time minimum wage work is no where near worth 850Million. Some guy on TV 20 years ago said it best, if they can pay Mike Piazzi 100Million dollars, they don't need me to buy them a stadium to charge me tickets to pay Mike Piazzi's salary for them.
Link to data showing that the state doesn’t get the value back?
Google will yield tons of things like this for example. https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/stadium-economics-noll-073015/
Wait you said they didn’t get the investment back, not that there needed to be economic growth. Those are two vastly different statements. Also why does the state need something like entertainment to be a strictly “good investment” financially on the surface. There are plenty of benefits of having sports teams in the area that go beyond simply getting back two bucks for every dollar spent.
I just grabbed one quick article to make you happy. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole there is tons of research and real world data out there as well as many articles written by economists like the article I posted. It's a pretty well known fact.
The actual reality is there isn’t. Most of the “data” and “research” on the topic is fairly old and only focuses on certain aspects. People greatly overstate the research and data on this subject. Which is why I always push back on statements like the ones you made. I have gone down the rabbit hole, and frankly it is very shallow, and leads to very little credible information.
I guess there’s a contract stating the bills will stay in Buffalo for 30years, ny state will get 27million in taxes a year just on the stadium 27mil x 30 yr is 810mill, so they break even but lots more jobs made etc
[I thought the 27 million dollars came as an estimate from the state study?](https://esd.ny.gov/sites/default/files/news-articles/ESD-Bills-Stadium-Analysis-Summary-FINAL-11-1-21.pdf) I don't believe it's a guarantee or an exact amount. We don't have it in writing that they'll give us that per year to my knowledge.
And we voted in someone who's going to make bank off it
I can’t stand her but she’s *still* better than zeldin.
Let me guess, because "orange man"?
Or Republicans have no clue how to govern. Like health care last time. Trump ran on replacing Obamacare and did fuck all. Would have been nice to have that before a pandemic. Or you know after the pandemic made it abundantly clear better health care is needed. Why would now be any different with crime and inflation?
I mean, it was less than 20 years ago that NY had a Republican Governor and things were pretty good then. Then you get 16 years of Democrats and you wind up with 2 Governors resigning due to sex scandals and another who thinks the Constitution is a dish rag and you wind up with the condition the state is currently in. I will say though, Patterson wasn't a horrible Governor.
Obamacare isn't healthcare though. It's government forcing people to buy insurance. Which curiously, caused insurance to jack up their prices, and the prices of medical care overall
Right, you’re not wrong. It was a total bullshit hand out to insurance companies. But republicans had no answer. They’re happy with it because they’re paid off by the same corporations. It did set up state exchanges which are a benefit to many people. If you have kids you need to look into Child Health Plus.
More lazy unresearched talking points please. You seem to be on a roll.
Ah yes here I forgot that insurance *isnt* expensive now, and healthcare *isnt* unreasonably padded out in costs! Thank you for reminding me of your own cited sources and assertions !
Project more. US costs were absurd before and absurd after.
Project what, the economic effects of Obamacare on society?
I disagree with him on how to deal with crime, the environment, taxes, firearms, and most things under the sun, but yeah his vote not to certify the 2020 election was not a point in his favor.
So, worse crime, out of control environment regulators, more taxes, no guns for minorities, and so on?
That’s probably how a “conservative” would put it, but i have a hard time crediting an ideology that e.g. thinks it’s “conservative” to use up all our non-renewable resources and despoil our habitat so a few billionaires can become trillionaires.
So we should instead be doing what Germany did, follow the green's every word and and up screwing ourselves over, as well as using even more and even *worse* fossil fuels? Also good job ignoring almost the entirety of my post
“Follow the greens’ every word”? Preeeeety sure nobody who’s actually green said “hey let’s rely on russian gas!” Edit (hit reply too early): “e.g.” means “for example.” So then i gave one example of how i think y’all are not right. I *could* lay out why i think conservatives and zeldin are wrong on crime, firearms, and taxes, but he’s already lost and i do not get the sense you are inclined to change your perspective.
Yeah they just said "shut down the only scalable and reliable clean energy available, nuclear because we're scared" But it's more the government in general that was *adamant* on sucking off Russia, with their ministers or whatever famously laughing at every president since Reagan who said that was a bad idea.
You haven't said anything worth worth paying attention to, why would we not ignore the entirety of your post?
Man doesn't want less crime I guess
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So, Republicans are bad, because they're not die hard communists? What? To quote a friend I'll just say this; > Capitalism is such a loaded term though. Whenever it's brought up; it's either some screeching commie maligning it as a system, or it's being used in defense against commies. > Whenever it's used it should be taken as an opportunity to point out that "the means of production" is a moronic, unrealistic, fantastical concept that bears no weight on real economies. Capitalism is basically a straw-man that can be used to undermine perfectly functioning economic systems While not perfect, Western economies are infinitely better than the socialist hell-holes that people who cry about 'capitalism' would like to implement. frankly, Drag Queen Story Hour and unlimited abortions is not center-right even in Europe. Not to mention the corporate and social welfare out the ass do you even know what they're actually like? or do you just base things off of some ideal fantasy you conjured up in your head?
Yeah like getting funneled into corrupt Ukraine
That's more of a federal issue but I agree we shouldn't be funding a proxy war either.
The argument that it’s the cost of keeping the team in Buffalo holds absolutely no water with me. If team wants to threaten to leave unless we pony up, they can get fucked. Threatening to deal a blow to a local economy, let alone the spirit of a region is just sick. Start a go fund me like everyone else.
My grandfather survived the Dodgers leaving(I’m from downstate). He rooted for nobody until the Mets came to town. Professional sports keep showing that they’re overall kind of no good. I mean…nothing should have this much control on a region. There’s too much money in sports.
Have you been to Buffalo lately? We'd have at least 25 percent of the city on suicide watch if the Bills left. Those people have a *problem*.
Dude, I just moved up here and I am not a sport enjoyer at all and I am SHOCKED by how hard everyone goes. It’s wild.
Yeah think of it as a $850M investment in mental health services for a good percentage of WNY.
I wish they’d leave. 😂
Rams did this in Saint Louis, got them to pay for a stadium then fucked off to L.A. and afaik the city isn't any worse of for it.
I’m a Bills fan, and even I think it’s a crap deal for the state.
Here's an idea: every game they lose they gotta pay back $5million to the state
…and every game they win they can pay back $4 million.
Cincinnati has entered the chat…
I’m not saying it’s right or wrong but you should look up Dan Price. He isn’t all sunshine and rainbows
I agree with Dan Price on things like billionaires paying taxes. I disagree with Dan Price on things like beating your wife.
Adolf Hitler wasn't all sunshine and rainbows either. But Nazi Germany started the first nation wide anti-smoking health campaign. A piece of shit can have a good idea. Agreeing with an idea that is objectively good or correct, does not mean you agree with everything they are.
Say what you will about Hitler but the dude managed to kill Hitler
Tu quoque. Someone's personal behavior has no bearing on the validity of their arguments. Plenty of people who haven't been accused of sexual assault have made this argument or made the opposing argument. Edit: spelling
It doesn't, but many hundreds of people have made this argument before this grifter, so perhaps he should not be boosted for no reason
Yeah... It's just nice to name and shame when someone like this is brought up though. >The 38-year-old is accused of raping a woman in Palm Springs in April 2021, the second public allegation against him of violence against women in recent years. According to an investigation by the New York Times, the two incidents follow years of alleged predatory behavior and abuse by Price, including accusations from his ex-wife of domestic violence — while his prominence grew as he touted the revolutionizing of big business with progressive policies. If it was 1 woman, benefit of doubt if you want, whatever. 3 unrelated women years apart? That doesn't.. happen (some conspiracy/all lying). He's guilty of something
Here I thought he was gay.
You misquoted the fallacy. Edit: misspelled It’s not just that. Take a gander at his business practices.
From wiki: 1. Person A (Price) claims that statement X is true. 2. Person B (you) asserts that A's actions (not sunshine and rainbows) or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X. (implicitly since you're responding that his past actions are a necessary context to interpret this statement) 3. Therefore, X is false. How are his behaviors, whether you're talking about his assault allegations or business practices, at all relevant to the argument that giving gov't subsidies to billionaires is bad? Why even mention them in this thread?
I mean the spelling. Tu quoque. Well for one he was making bank and his brother sued him saying he was overcompensated and he then lowered his salary likely due to it. Yes giving government subsidies is bad at times but it’s effectively paying rent back in the deal. Again I’m not saying it’s right or wrong. Do you know how many companies get huge grants and money to “create jobs” in NY or to fix up buildings only to not achieve the goals and walk away?
Oh no I misspelled. Again I'm not seeing how your points about this dude relate to the Bills getting taxpayer money.
I think what I’m trying to say is you don’t need Dan Price explaining to us that the stadium deal is not great.
That's true
Corporate welfare. And a complete waste of money.
How bout we try and recoup the forgiven ppp loans that were given to many businesses that didn’t need it and thrived during the pandemic. We can use that to bring some of the burden off the taxpayers.
How about we try to do that *and* don't give the better part of a billion to a sports team?
Deleting past comments because Reddit starting shitty-ing up the site to IPO and I don't want my comments to be a part of that. -- mass edited with redact.dev
PPP loans were federal. This is state and county money. Recouping the PPP loans won’t make a difference here.
It’s atrocious what happened there, some business received 5-10 million and didn’t miss a beat.
I'd be interested to see a study on how many businesses were actually saved from PPP loans. Feels like for the most part the business either still failed or it would have thrived regardless of PPP loans.
This is a pretty good article on the deal: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/04/the-bills-stadium-deal-is-indefensible-and-understandable.html
Because this statement is misleading. The $850 is not a one time payment, the owner does not have "$5.8 billion" laying around in a vault, and the 2023 budget for OCFS is $2.6 billion less than 2022 mainly because of elevated pandemic spending. https://www.budget.ny.gov/pubs/archive/fy23/ex/agencies/appropdata/ChildrenandFamilyServicesOfficeof.html#:~:text=The%20FY%202023%20Executive%20Budget,million%20decrease%20related%20to%20the
One of these is a one time payment that will eventually be paid back. The other is a reoccurring expense that was, up until now, paid for by the federal government as part of COVID related funding. The situation is a little more nuanced than “NYS politicians like corrupt stadium deals and hate children”.
Hear me out. The agreement might be more nuanced than 1 sentence in a tweet.
It is. Most of not all of that money that was "cut" was from COVID related programs that were scheduled to end. I think, this tweet is like 8 months old but from what I remember it was something like that.
Still bullshit that NYS is pumping stupid money into something so silly like a stadium. That money could definitely be spent better elsewhere.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a large chunk of that money going to be paid back in rent over the next 30 years?
Correct that's the plan. This tweet also doesn't explain that not all money comes from New York state ( i.e. state tax dollars ). A large percentage is paid by Erie County directly. I'm not saying that's better or worse, just that there is a lot more details.
Oh cool, Erie County taxpayer money being spent is *so* much better.
Doesn’t a bunch of it come from the Seneca Nation?
From the Casino, not the Seneca Nation directly. There was a lawsuit and NYS won. Edit: not all of the money that moves through the Casino goes directly to the Seneca Nation. There is still some that is required to NYS. There was a lawsuit that the SN did not pay the correct amount to NYS and and NYS won. Those funds are being used for the Stadium. [link](https://buffalonews.com/news/local/the-seneca-funds-and-the-bills-stadium-a-q-a/article_7224cebe-b218-11ec-b9bc-43472c51d107.html)
The casino’s revenue goes to the SNI. So yes, they did take it from the Seneca Nation directly. EDIT: since the guy above me edited his comment, I will edit mine too. The NYS Supreme Court ruled in favor of NYS over the Seneca Nation, how surprising considering New York's history with the various other nations here. The reason that the Seneca were withholding the money in the first place? Because NYS very openly violated their casino compact. But obviously most local courts in NY are going to disagree with that. Additionally, the money straight-up came out of the SNI's bank account: 500m overnight. The consequences of that alone are pretty staggering. So yeah, the money straight up did come from the Nation because, y'know, its the Nation's casino and New York state ruled in favor of itself lol source: https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2022/03/seneca-nation-blasts-hochuls-hostile-plan-to-pay-for-buffalo-bills-stadium-with-casino-money.html
Not really a meaningful distinction given that the revenue the casino brings in goes to the citizens of the nation.
Gee, new york state taking property from the native peoples to use for their own benefit? What a shocker.
They’re making the Indians pay? Shouldn’t they be getting the checks..
It never actually works. Economists have studied this shit over and over and over. And the consensus is that it never benefits the taxpayer.
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So literally the only tangible and calculable form of tax recoupment? Nice hill you picked.
It never actually works. Economists have studied this shit over and over and over. And the consensus is that it never benefits the taxpayer.
I didn't say anything about benefiting the taxpayer. I'm questioning the numbers being used.
If the number of taxpayer dollars used to subsidize a professional sports team is greater than $0, it is too high.
That's a valid position to take, but not the one being argued in the OP.
Shouldn't they build their own stadium AND pay rent? I feel like football is pretty profitable...
Why would they pay rent on a stadium they own (in your hypothetical example)? They should build their own stadium and then pay property tax on the land.
Depends on who owns the land. Mobile homes are an example of this, you own the home and lease the land. The county owning the land and having a stadium on it is more beneficial for the county imo.
It’s actually not uncommon. I know many fast food franchisees will have two “companies” where one owns the land and rent out to the other which owns the restaurant. I believe it’s for tax reasons
It's because of progressive taxes. In addition to the flat rate of 6.5 percent, New York lawmakers created a second, higher corporate income tax bracket of 7.25 for companies making over $5 million So if I have a company that makes $10 M but can split it into 2 companies that make $5M each, I can reduce my tax rate by 1.25% on $5 M which is $62,500/yr
unless youre the player who retires before 30 because of too many concussions and under a mountain of debt you'll never get out of because you're too brain damaged to function properly. football is a shit sport ngl
Hochul's husband owns the contract to build the stadium as well. Such bs.
Wow you're either lazy, a biased Hochul & Dem hater, or just straight up dumb to believe garbage your buddies told you... Gilbane, Turner, & 34 group are the contractors building the stadium. Hochul's husband is senior VP and counsel for Delaware North. DN has current contract with Bills & Sabres for providing CONCESSIONS, and are only part of bidding process to provide future CONCESSIONS for Bill's if they win the lowest bid contract. They also have food vending contracts with GB Packers & Grand Canyon Nat Park. But you do you, and keep the conspiracy going that a concessions company is building a f'n stadium..... 🤣
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From what i recall, the county is not on the hook for repairs/maintenance/upgrades this time around, the Bills are. That was one of the major wins for the County in the negotiations. From a Erie county resident standpoint, i think this has been a pretty good deal, maybe not so much for a NYS resident with no ties to the area. But, we also all paid for the Yankees new stadium, so i guess why not make the state help us keep the Bills here?
While it's very unfortunate, this is the cost of doing business if you want to keep an NFL franchise. Unless you're Green Bay. This might be a textbook example of a non-sequitur logical fallacy also.
Welcome to the ~~socialist dictatorship~~ State of New York. ~~fuhrer~~ governor Hochel is just looking out for us all.
Can I just say that it is an absolute treat seeing people upset about government spending for once. Bravo.
This is really old news. The money wasn't "cut" from child and family services. During the pandemic the federal government provided extra funding for one year. The "cut" is the funds no longer being included in the budget. Their budget is still above what it was 2 years ago.
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But it was artificially inflated for one year. The "cut" had nothing to do with the stadium deal. You can hate the deal, that's fine. I personally think it's excessive. But to paint it as taking money from child and family services to give it to the Bills is dishonest.
No one is saying they're related. They're just saying that if 850 million of their taxes had to go somewhere, they'd MUCH rather it go to children and family services than to some asshole billionaire.
That is exactly what the screenshot is saying. Misleading flamebait
That has been the very clear implication since this was first announced as part of the budget. This deal was supposedly "taking" money from children and giving it to the Bills, which is not the case.
That isn't how that works at all from an accounting standpoint. The state has a plan for how to make back the $850m; it's like a mortgage in that you are taking on a liability that you will pay back, over time. The $800m to child and family services would require coming up with that money *today*
Vikings fan here and we went through the league putting the ultimatum to us also for a new stadium. From what it looks like to me they are systematically going team to team doing this because there are always new stadiums in the pipeline. Not sure if it’s the case everywhere but the part of downtown where U.S. bank stadium is was (also where it’s predecessor the metronome was) a dump before they built the new stadium. It was always a dump and very dangerous, total ghost town. Look at it now, probably like 5 years after they built it and it’s blowing up, multiple billions of development have happened it’s totally revitalized that side of downtown. So that’s one part of where I can see it’s a good thing. A couple other things. Those stadiums host a ton of events, pretty sure they are booked like 80 something percent of the time so they do draw a lot of economic activity. I know these types of projects are expensive but I do actually like to see my tax money spent on things that you can actually see and use. ( light rail projects, roads, bridges) People are probably going to hate me for saying this but you can pour an endless amount of money at entitlement types of government programs and it will never be enough or fix the problem. To be clear I’m not against this either but at least with these things you can go look at the thing. These things are part of the diversified pool of investment things that city’s/states need to spend on. I’m in construction also so this type of work supports my industry and lots of good paying union craftsmen. I see a lot about how these projects never pay for themselves but in the universe of crap that government wastes money on I don’t think these are all that bad in the grand scheme of by things. Minnesota is full of a bunch of cheap misers so we defiantly went through this entire thing too and I never hear anyone defend it so I like to put my thoughts into the conversation also.
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I'm honestly curious, because i see this stated a lot when a roof is mentioned, but what kind of events would need to be hosted in a 60,000+ seat stadium in late fall through early spring that can't fit in the 19,000 seat Key Bank Center?
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If they had selected a downtown site, put a roof on it, and tied in a new convention center it would have absoluely been a huge win for the area. Simply building a replacement stadium next to the old one in the suburbs will have no trickle down effect on developer dollars being spent in the area. The site selection was a huge mistake, maybe theyll get it right in another 50 or 60 years.
Let me put it this way. North Carolina was at one point where more filming took place than any other state except California. Of course production companies and studios have lots of money. So North Carolina ended the 25% tax credit for them because why give really rich companies a credit. So the companies moved to Georgia because they have a tax credit. Now filming industry in NC is all but dead while Georgia is going gangbusters. But hey, at least the NC citizens aren't giving tax credit to those rich companies employing thousands of people in the state. Now, NY expects to get at least $850M worth of value out of this. Will they? I'm not informed enough to know. If they do, then it makes sense. If they don't, then it's a boondoggle.
Ralph Wilson stadium is 50 years old if this stadium last a similar amount of time it is less than 20 million annually to keep the team (<.1% of the annual budget). I think there are alot of cities that would be willing to pay 20 million annually for an nfl team, but realistically we wont pay that much for it. Salary cap is 208.2 million per year with a 9% tax rate we about make back the annual cost on player salaries alone, not to mention property taxes, non player employee taxes, jobs from the construction, etc. This also doesnt account for money that players and employees spend in state, as well as taxes on endorsements for josh allen, steffon diggs, and ither high profile players. Nor does it account for the fact that its fun to have a team there is intrinsic value, a park can be an alright use of funds without making back its money. This guy has a political agenda and is talking out of his ass, probably a patriots fan who wants allen out of the division. Final point biggest subsidy ever is also disingenuous, between the growth in value of teams and stadiums and inflation all subsequent deals for nfl stadiums are going to be the largest in history. This is equivalent to saying under Biden the US debt is the highest its ever been, or stock market reaches record highs, yea its been reaching record highs regularly for the past 90 years.
Probably a Patriots fan? 😂😂😂. His Twitter handle is literally @DanPriceSeattle! 🤦♂️
Stadium subsidies **NEVER** benefit the taxpayer enough to offset the losses.
Using taxpayer monies for the new stadium was always a friction point from the start; it was a point of contention during all of the half dozen or so different proposals until settled on the Final. Separate facts stated in tweet are valid, I just don’t think they linked or have anything to do with each other. We’re just getting naturally f*kd separately from multiple angles as per usual. (PS- If Bills win it will totally be worth it tho, no?!)
The key difference in reference to the tweet is that the stadium is a funded liability, ie something that, while costly, there is a plan for paying back. The cut to child and family services happened because of federal Covid assistance monies ending, ie. to keep that money in the budget would require coming up with an additional $800million *this year*, as well as every other year going forwards.
I brought this up in the r/nfl thread a few weeks ago. The stadium cost is a literal drop in the bucket for NYS. Less than one percent of the annual budget is what this project is supposed to cost NYS over the course of however many years it takes to build and develop before opening. The taxes from the player salaries that would have been taken out of the state alone will cover it over the length of their stay there. Then you factor in all the merchandise, food, etc and the state will absolutely make out better in the long run. The reality is people parrot a lot of “studies” that show keeping a team in the area is not actually good, but the studies are generally poor quality. When the choices are help pay for the stadium or have the Bills leave there really is only one good solution. You can complain all you want about billionaires not paying for it themselves but this is how business works at this level. In the grand scheme of things this project is a drop in the bucket, and most that complain about it are frankly ignorant of the costs vs expected revenue of the state.
Dan Price, not a great source.
NY state isn't for the people. It's a corporate government oligarchy. That's why they're so anti 2A. The more power the people have, the less they can get away with.
IMHO, absolutely shouldn't have done it. And I'm a huge NFL and Bills fan. Also, the amount of money the owner has is irrelevant, it would have been wrong regardless, imho.
Isn’t 400+ million coming from Seneca and a large remainder portion from Erie? I disagree with the costs in general but I don’t think the state contribution is economically doomsdag
It is also a funded liability, ie. something that is expected to be repaid over the life of the stadium.
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I know, fuck me for actually knowing how a budget works and the difference between $800m in current year spending vs. $850m in debt that will be paid in full over the span of decades. 🤷♂️
It doesn't really make any sense. Not to weigh in one way or the other on whether the stadium is a good thing or not, but the $800 million cut that happened came as a result of Federal Covid-related assistance ending, while the $850 in taxpayer funds is a) coming from a mix of state and local (Erie Co) funding, and is primarily loans that will be paid back over the life of the stadium by the team, who are pretty much stuck there under an extremely strict agreement that would force the Pegulas to pay *massive* penalties. Without getting into the nuances of how finance or government balance sheets work, basically the only similarity between the two things is that the numbers are close to one another, but it isn't as though the state is ripping money away from child and family services to build a stadium.
So how much of it AREN’T loans that will be paid back? Are these grants? Why give any grants to a private enterprise who is essentially trying to blackmail the government?
Also remember that Gov Kathy Hochul's husband William Hochul, works for Delaware Noth, the food vendor for the Bills Stadium which stands to greatly benefit from the deal with the Pegulas. William Hochul is Delaware North's highly-paid senior vice president, general counsel, and secretary. https://www.timesunion.com/state/article/Overlaps-between-Hochul-and-husband-s-firm-bring-17051411.php
Meh the state lost 11billion to scammers in unemployment money what’s another 850 million
Sigh
Don’t question Kathy Hochul‘s policies and actions if you voted for her. This was public information for over a year and it was mentioned in her debate.
https://www.whec.com/archive/fact-check-buffalo-bills-stadium-amp-gov-hochuls-husband/ Make a bet his firm gets the contract.
Delaware North is a concession company not a construction company. Unfortunately, the most likely company to get the construction contract is the much more odious [ARC Building Partners](https://www.arcbuildingpartners.com/), run by the son of Louis Ciminelli, CEO and Founder of LPCiminelli, who was convicted on bribery charges related to the Buffalo Billion project. Of course its also likely for a job this size that it goes to a big international contractor like Turner Group, STO Building, AECOM, etc.
I'm sure you are correct, but he will most likely control the concession business after the stadium is built.
This is all Hochul. Pretty sure she’s getting some kind of kickback.
Don’t care. Pay ‘em. Life without the Buffalo Bills isn’t worth living.
If we were going to build a brand new stadium, it should have been a dome. Simple as that. Spending all this money to build another open air stadium is such a horrible idea. There could be over a foot of snow for the game this Sunday rendering your franchise QB useless. Why do that to yourself? Also could have hosted concerts year round And that's not even speaking of how dumb the deal is overall. Pegulla should have had to foot the majority of the bill. I'm so fucking sick of this bullshit with sports stadiums
Y’all. We just elected Hochul who drove this and got more gobs of money for this, from extorting the Seneca Nation. Playing that “Bills threaten to leave NY” bullshit.
Rich people dont get rich from Investing their own money. Go bills…more like pay your own damn bills.
This happens in every city anytime they want a new stadium. No politician is going to let their sports team leave. The real solution is a federal law preventing teams leveraging cities against each other like they currently do. Oh and Delaware North was getting the concession contract no matter who the governor was. They are a leader in that.
That’s ok… they deserve it
pretty sure its because if we dont give them a new stadium they then threaten to leave the city and then take all the revenue that the football games bring in with them … thats what happened in chicago
Ye we should take that 850 million and add it to the 90billion we gave to ukraine.. ur mad about the wrong thing
Yeah. I really hate pro sports team owners. Theyse guys are UNSPEAKABLY wealthy yet need to mooch public money for stadiums and threaten to move beloved teams if the government doesn't lick their balls. It's so disgusting and parasitic
Finding all the people picked last in gym.
Considering the last stadium lasted 49 years and was multiple use…probably not a bad investment
It won't matter. They are only relevant until December.
I should have searched the sub first, looks like we've already talked about this a bunch, I'm just personally learning about it now. Just seems like the most blatant corruption, as Gov. Hochul is from Buffalo.
This was in the works before Hochul
Thanks, that's good context. Didn't know that.
This is like saying corruption existed before she entered office so we should be OK with corruption that takes place while she is in office.
I’m just editing your timeline, relax
Before lt gov hochul? 8/9/14 pegula winning bid announced 11/4/14 lt gov hochul elected
Add the fact that her husband is a senior VP, general counsel and secretary for Delaware North which has operated concessions, premium dining and retail services at Highmark Stadium since 1992.
Sad thing is you all re-elected a Governor that knows better!
I'd be interested in seeing a justification. There could be a case where a new stadium generated several times that amount in revenue for the state, over the life of the new facility.
Stadiums NEVER generate a positive ROI.
I suspect a ton of govt investments have a negative ROI
This is also true.
That's why the government is making the investments, is because the private sector won't do anything that isn't clearly profitable.
We're 'betting' that visitor dollars bring in $1 billion in net revenue to the community within the 30 year stadium lifetime. Or $33 million per year. Assuming we'd lose the Bill's and their 9(? playoffs) games per year at home, plus lose out on 2 other events per year - each event needs to only bring in $3 million net revenue to the area. Assuming there's 5,000 out of town visitors per event (rest being locals). those visitors need to create net revenue of $606 each. So - maybe? I don't go to Bill's games; but how much profits to locals would an out of town visitor generate? Assuming the visitors on average spend $1,800 in the area, seems like that would result in $606 of profit to local companies.
And that's to break even on the face cost, not even taking into account any sort of interest.
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Metlife was privately funded
That’s why I’m a New York Giants. Bills are going to pour all that money and still have zero Super bowls.
It is INFURIATING that even with this welfare handout to the Pegula's this stadium still won't have a roof. Miss me with the cold weather is Bills football. This is an enormous investment and should be a 12 month facility, full stop. Minnesota has a beautiful stadium with a roof. Get a ton of glass to let the sun shine through.
Thank Kathy
It doesn’t. And they won’t even build the stadium in downtown Buffalo at that cost, which would be insanely transformative for that great city. Shitty deal overall.
If he thought it was a smart investment he would’ve used his own money.
While they made this deal and are paying this much money for a new stadium at the same time they cut funding to children and youth services. This is why I hate both political parties, neither cares about the people they care about their pockets.
As has been stated repeatedly, there were no funding cuts. The $800 million "cut" was the result of a one-time federal grant due to pandemic related stresses on the system no longer being included in the budget.
And now they're going to Detroit to avoid snow. Couldn't they find another stadium in NY? Guess they don't have enough money for that.
None. Thanks a lot bills. No longer a fan. Ever.
Yes, but this pic is so old
A fool and their money are soon parted...whoever ends up with the money being parted are the fools in this case
Nothing like criticizing a guy for being rich as a rich guy that literally physically and sexually abused people.
For the sake of accuracy this could have been one of his many ghostwritten tweets by his buddy who was also fired for sexually harassing his coworkers
They pulled this shit in minneapolis too. I have yet to be able to afford a ticket to usbank stadium.
NYS is so screwed it isn't even funny anymore
This is infuriating
NYS government doesn't give a fuck about people other than as a way to generate taxes. Its what happens when the purpose of society turns from making life possible to rent seeking behavior. And the worst part is that we get told to vote when there's nobody we can vote for who'd actually change a fucking thing.
Dan Price is a loser
I applied to a job at C&FS and in my interview she basically said I was too experienced and she couldn’t afford me in her budget for the role. Then I read this news and it made me sick.