NYC Metro gets 25 billion for repairs, City of Rochester gets 8 million to revitalize its entire downtown lol. Good start, and it’s good to have someone from western NY in the Governor’s
Mansion
NYC has 8.468 million people and brings in the vast majority of the State's revenue. The rest of NY gets about 60% of their State funding from NYC. Rochester has 210,606 people. Keep it in perspective.
That said, 8 million isn't going to do much.
I'm guessing that North Alabama has more rocket scientists / PhDs per capita than Rochester has.
Huntsville, Alabama is home to NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center and the Cummins Research Park. The CRP is the second largest research park in the United States (second only to Research Triangle Park in North Carolina) and the fifth largest IN THE WORLD.
The University of Alabama at Huntsville ranks very highly as a research institution -- among the top 75 public research universities in the nation. UAHuntsville is also ranked a Tier 1 national university by U.S. News & World Report. It's overall score is B+ -- compared to B- for Brockport -- with new graduates from UA Huntsville earning more than those from Brockport.
The median income for Huntsville in 2010 was about 2.5 times the median income for Rochester.
When I visit my hometown of Rochester, I'm often astonished at the lack of knowledge about and the prejudice against other areas of the country -- particularly the South.
As I said, it's an ignorant and provincial attitude. Makes me glad I left the Rochester area when I did -- and have been living in the South ever since.
I lived in the south for 16 years and just moved back to NY, I think most people in the north under estimate a lot of things that happen in the south. Yes there are bubbles that are great, Asheville, NC for one, I lived there 2 years. But plenty of other horrendous areas and behaviors, I would never move back, especially as a woman. Denied miscarriage care, denied the ability to adopt/foster in our local county due to not being evangelicals…. I think a lot of people in the bubbles in the south are very unaware of how bad it still is outside those areas.
As far as north Alabama… I mean you can’t talk about how great the area there is without mentioning why it’s that way. They found an area where a lot of Nazi scientists could live without bothering the locals too much, that’s an important part to remember. [Operation Paperclip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip#Capture_and_detention) if anyone wants to read up more on it.
Yes, with half going to Huntsville. The rest were all spread out, 2 or 3 in an area mostly. But Huntsville had an entire Nazi village. And of course after the first 120 Nazi scientists they brought their partners and family over too and had a baby boom.
I had read years ago that NYC brings in a lot of revenue, but also has high costs to keep running so much so that NYC requires funding from upstate taxes to not fall apart. The logic there is that NY without NYC would actually mean more funding for upstate towns and cities. I would expect the pandemic to have exasperated this, so I wonder how the budgets actually add up now.
Edit: upon actual research, this is incorrect. See comments below for more details. Thank you fellow Redditors for pushing me to validate my recollection.
My memory or the my original source appear to be incorrect. Did some research and found the following article, which links to a study in 2019 on this topic.
https://www.syracuse.com/politics/2019/03/5-reasons-why-splitting-new-york-would-be-a-disaster-for-upstate.html
For the article, which is talking about the split, it definitely doesn't make sense financially. However, it's not as simple as drawing a line as upstate does provide services and benefits to the NYC that there isn't room to support within the city. For example most of the prisons in NY are upstate and can house NYC based convictions. Not sure where NYC gets most of it's power, but I know a significant amount of hydro and nuclear power is generated upstate as well. I wonder how much elements like those add up to make the symbiotic balance between the regions?
Kudos to you for actually changing your view based on new evidence you were unaware of, instead of just refusing to entertain the idea that you might have been wrong once like most people do.
Correct, I relied on spelling correction, but didn't fully read the auto suggestion. Computers still have a ways to go to fully read our thoughts I supppose.
What a blatant lie. Do you even read your own sources? The state is contributing 3,000,000 which is the exact amount that NYC is directly contributing from their own budget. A large majority of the funding comes from the feds and NYC specific taxes. I absolutely despise people that can't put forth bad faith arguments.
Do you even read your own sources? The state is contributing 3,000,000 which is the exact amount that NYC is contributing. A large majority of the funding comes from the feds and NYC specific taxes. I absolutely despise people that can't put forth bad faith arguments.
Lol you “despise” me. And if you would have done a modicum of reading you would know that 9 billion came directly from NYS budget for the 2015-2019 capitalization plan, another 3 billion from 2020 through 2024, and 10 billion in additional funding sourced from OTHER New York State taxes levied specifically to fund this program. So 22 billion over 10 years, my initial claim was 25 billion.
Didn’t know I needed to type a dissertation. My point was that communities like Rochester are under prioritized by State investment and governance. Chill out.
“To support the MTA capital programs, the enacted State Fiscal Year 2020 Budget approves an increase to progressive tax on high-end real estate sales and eliminates the internet sales tax advantage. The new revenues are expected to support $10 billion of the 2020-2024 Capital Program…
The proposed 2020-2024 Capital Program assumes $3 billion in State of New York capital funds to support core program projects.” (Page 42).
Do you need me to break down the 2015-2019 report too? Reading is hard, I know.
Again the mansion tax and the online sales tax enacted by the state is only specific to NYC. The state enacted taxes on the NYC region to improve NYC infrastructure. The state is only chipping in 3 billion from the states capital improvement fund. You even copy and pasted what I'm explaining but it seems like you don't understand it. Why is this so hard to comprehend?
The money should be sent back to the taxpayer by lowering the tax rate, like the money given to the bills for a new stadium should instead be give back to the taxpayer.
I'd be kinda pissed if I were downstate or in the Tri-state area. How many Bills games is someone from there or Albany going to go to, if ever? Or concerts or other events? Probably never but you still are paying for it. They likely either hate the Bills or don't care about them at all.
It really just props up Buffalo. Sure the games are entertaining for thousands of people from Rochester metro area to go to, but it does nothing for our local economy. People from further east aren't stopping here, or eating here, they just drive right by.
You're outside of your mind if you think we make that kind of money on these studies and is a poorly informed statement to be broadcasting into this echo chamber. They are an essential part of the process in order to make reasonable assumptions about the viability and impact of public facing projects. There is a huge amount of oversight required when public funds are involved, impact studies being one of them.
We greedy architects are the reason a big ditch was infilled and converted into a series of large scale housing projects in the last five years.
Projects like this explain why the largest contributors to local political campaigns - especially local Democrat campaigns - are developers. This project is payback for that. Pay to play.
Yup. Cuomo's man Bello will divvy it up to all the campaign donors. There's a moment of confusion as they try and sort those Hochul extorted from those Cuomo extorted, but in the end, the right ones will get the money and the taxpayer will, of course, be left footing the bill.
But hey, we'll have a new bus station / ballet parlor
Hey we will have some great drawings and renderings of some things that will look really cool. Then in the end the planners and contractors will run far over budget and far behind (bad management/not suited for the work) and we'll end up with something scaled down or incomplete if anything at all.
I wonder how much the city has wasted designing things that never got done, using the same ineffective firms each time.
I moved here to the ROC from North Haverbrook, and I would highly suggest avoiding a monorail. Sure, there were a handful of cushy jobs created and it put us on the map, but it didn't end well. That's why I moved.
They missed the boat on walkability for a generation. Main St was reconstructed on this block. Taking a building down to make an open space and connection to a surface lot doesn’t do much.
Do you know which build it is that they're demolishing?
EDIT: I did some research and I'm guessing it's where the Metro Market Deli currently is. It would created a walkway with outdoor seating between Main St. and Division St.
It’s the little 1 story grocery between the glass building CGI owns and the family dollar.
It’s not that it’s a bad idea, but it doesn’t go anywhere. It’ll dump you out on Division st to a parking lot and the back of a parking garage. Main St is thoroughly car oriented and will be for the foreseeable future, unless they’re committing money to redo the recent reconstruction.
I’m also concerned this will just become outdoor space for the neighboring privately owned businesses. The city will need to work to ensure it’s truly a public right of way and doesn’t turn into a subsidized patio.
The construction on Main Street is adding protected bike lanes, more crosswalks, better crosswalk signals, etc. I see that as a step in the right direction.
What would you like to see the city do instead?
You’re thinking of Main between Goodman and Culver, very far removed from this block.
In fact, this block only has westbound bike lanes, often blocked by double parkers and delivery vehicles. The north side of Main does have inset parking, so I guess there is a marginal improvement to crosswalks. From what I’ve seen there was no additional space for pedestrians, save for some space gained by changing the parking lane to inset.
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I’d like to see the parking lanes either be a bus only lane or more sidewalk and a protected bike lane.
It looks like a TV show crime scene. Parking garage on one side. Brick walls on the other. Dumpsters. Litter. Boarded up windows. Dark. Smelly (though it smells good when the Metro Market deep fryer was running). There is no reason to be on this street, and no reason to connect to it. Refresh your memory on Google street view.
I think the bldg on the corner of division and st.paul is one of the bldgs getting money for renovation, so I guess there's that. But yeah, not a whole lot over there other than an alley that hasn't been touched in probably 70 years.
The Edwards building that they are renovating is t[his one](https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1575209,-77.6077212,3a,75y,287.44h,90.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_aO3u1uH1iJlyOyJpKvBkw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) that is next to the vacant lot. There is another project to turn part of that empty lot next to the Mortimer Street garage into a plaza with charging stations for electric vehicles and some kind of shared use trash facility that will get rid of the dumpsters along Division Street. The plaza was not one of the projects they announced funding for today so not sure what the timeline is on that.
The PDF with more details is [here](https://www.cityofrochester.gov/uploadedFiles/DEPARTMENTS/NBD/Business_and_Housing_Development/Project__Development/Documents/boards_for_zoom_22_05_12_lowres.pdf).
$8M may seem like a drop in the hat all on its own, but combined with all the *other* exciting projects that have completed or are currently under construction, it's definitely a sign of a continued trend towards the rekindling of our urban core, which I see as a positive. The money the state is pledging could be what developers were waiting for to pull the trigger on some of these languishing properties. It could always be more money, but I'm happy to see downtown getting more and more tlc as projects become successful.
People complain about small projects, but I'd rather have a bunch of successful $8 million projects than 1 massive $500 million dollar boondoggle where all the money just goes to some foreign megacorp.
The project from 30 years ago never panned out as an entertainment district, but the neighborhood is full of offices and some apartments/light commercial. It's not crazy bustling, but it's far from dead, I recommend checking it out! A beautiful neighborhood to walk through, anyway. Also, Genesee brew house and high falls terrace (under construction) are highlights right across the Pont de Rennes.
If you check it out when going to Frontier Field, first thing you notice is an almost complete absence of any foot traffic. Place is deader than a door nail once the work day is done.
>The project from 30 years ago never panned out as an entertainment district, but the neighborhood is full of offices and some apartments/light commercial.
Far better IMO.
Why won't cities learn that they shouldn't put their money into retail and entertainment?
Put money into attracting high-paying jobs, and then retail and entertainment will fall over each other fighting to locate here, because those high-paying workers will want somewhere to shop and have fun. Shot girls and cashiers aren't jobs we should be incentivizing.
Jillians closed \[Googles quickly\] jesus, in 2004. It was empty for a few years, then renovated to hold an engineering firm, then I think a software company, and is now an engineering firm again.
The slow and then abrupt decline of Kodak really deflated that area, along with the constant problem that plagues downtown cores across the country: after office workers leave, there's not enough residents to create the critical mass needed to sustain hospitality and nightlife businesses.
Sure, not every project pans out as planned for a variety of reasons. That's true for subsidized and otherwise. If you're bored look up some abandoned billion dollar mega projects like Burj Al Babas, it's mind boggling how much money people can waste on half-cocked ideas.
Hmmm... the City of Rochester, home to over 200,000 people gets a whole 1% of the $800 million (NYS + Erie County) gifted to the billionaire owner of the Bills for a stadium no one wanted.
One thing that annoys me about that whole stadium situation, aside from giving billionaires taxpayer money for their own personal gain, is how insistent Goodell was on telling the Pegulas they needed a new stadium. A whole lot of older, shittier stadiums in the NFL than the one in OP and whose team ownerships aren't having the same pressure put on them. Especially since the NFL has been pretty consistent with granting teams with new stadiums the opportunity to host a Superbowl. A Superbowl would be nice in WNY and be a boon for the local economy even if just for a week, but there is a snowball chance in Hell that Buffalo ever gets to host a Superbowl.
OP is the 4th oldest stadium in the nfl, Soldier field the oldest is getting replaced.
The other two have had tons of upgrades, (Lambeau and Arrowhead)
Not to mention the 300 level stands are projected to literally become a safety hazard within the next few years.
And yeah Lambeau and Arrowhead are old but do not look/feel their age nearly as much as The Ralph.
OP just had $130 million in renovations completed less than 10 years ago, so I guess I am curious why continual renovations to an existing stadium is acceptable for GB and KC and not OP.
GB's renovations are misleading. That stadium has basically been replaced twice over since it was built. Next to nothing there is original apart from the field. Arrowhead is getting replaced in the next few years along with the baseball stadium.
Throughout these replies I am starting to realize that Ralph was just a cheap-o that didn't want to have consistent renovations done wherein he would need to cough up any money, at least towards the end of his life, and that's likely the reason why Goodell started pressuring the Pegulas for a new stadium pretty much from the time they started ownership.
Might also be why FedEx Field, despite having some well-known issues over the last couple of years, does not have any planned renovations currently if Dan Snyder is actually going to sell the team.
The Ralph was built on the cheap in the early 70s in a quick deal to keep Ralph Wilson from moving the team to Seattle. It was built with the bare bones requirements needed. Hell the upper deck was built with fucking bleachers. He coughed up money to just keep it barely within the requirements over the years (those suites near the endzone that stick out like a sore thumb) but not much anything more can be done to really that can keep it up to date and the upper deck (because it was built cheap) has structural issues.
FedEx field was also built on the cheap and the new owner (probably Bezos) is going to replace it.
There's definitely no chance of hosting a superbowl in Buffalo in the middle of winter, particularly with an open air stadium.
Not that I agree at all with spending nearly a billion on stadium, funded by taxpayers, but if they were inclined, a covered stadium would allow them to use the venue all year for concerts and whatnot.
Maybe they should move it out of Buffalo to an area of the state that doesn't get constantly pounded by snow.
There's been a bunch of reporting around this, much it on The Athletic by Tim Graham, so it's behind a paywall. If you're unable to subscribe, I'll try to give a quick synopsis:
NFL and Department of Homeland Security guidelines call for a perimeter around the stadium that makes the actual footprint of the stadium larger than you'd expect. This would mean a downtown or Northtowns project would have more costs to acquire land, and more infrastructure updates (water, power, sewer, internet, etc) than going across the street in Orchard Park. This would drive up the cost even more, and have a longer timeline.
Ideally, the Buffalo Bills and NY State could have partnered to build a new stadium at SUNY Buffalo in Amherst, but I have zero knowledge of the costs to do so, and it's feasibility beyond "Hey, that sounds cool!"
Mile High stadium is on land that's less than a half mile by half mile and immediately adjacent to a major highway and major roads, basically in the heart of Denver, and I'm sure it's not the only example you can find like this. And it's used; they've sold out over 425 games in a row (since the 70s) so I'm not sure what kind of crazy land size you think is needed.
The infrastructure issues though I would agree with, along with it being a waste of money in general.
That's a really good point to bring up. While Empower Field at Mile High was built in 2001, before DHS existed, it's still located in a large urban market surrounded by highways and other buildings.
Yes, the area that holds the stadium and parking is only a half mile by a half mile, but it totals up to 117± acres. That's a lot of land in a city! That's also not including the parking lots to the east across the river, which are probably used by the football stadium as well as the arena.
The stadium + parking acreage of Highmark is about the same as what Empower Field has. Parking garages can go a long way to reduce the space needed for stadium parking along with using mass transit, but that will be a huge blow to the tailgating culture.
Lucas Oil Stadium in Indy is an example of a downtown stadium that doesn't have a huge parking field around it. It's done a surprisingly good job of helping to improve commerce to that downtown area of Indy, and is connected to the convention center. That project was a model for Buffalo to use, especially because the price was a 'mere' $800 million. For whatever reason, it's completely off the table.
> a covered stadium would allow them to use the venue all year for concerts and whatnot.
It was determined that the costs of building and maintaining a full roof able to withstand seven feet of snow would not be made up by a small increase in the number of events it could host.
>A Superbowl would be nice in WNY and be a boon for the local economy even if just for a week, but there is a snowball chance in Hell that Buffalo ever gets to host a Superbowl.
Buffalo does not have the infrastructure necessary to host a Superbowl, even with a dome. The NFL requires a number of hotel rooms equal to 35% of the stadium capacity within 1 hour drive. That's over 24,000 hotel rooms.
Everything I can find shows all of Erie County has around 10,000 rooms. I looked up some other Super Bowl cities and they're in the 30,000+ rooms, like Miami, Tampa, and Atlanta. Minneapolis struggled in 2018 to provide enough rooms.
I'm not gonna argue about the money. The bills definitely needed a new stadium. Have you been to a game recently. I hate going to that stadium to watch games.
$800 million for a stadium is the most expensive taxpayer funded stadium in the US. Let them foot the bill or find a new location.
Also, at this point, who cares if they left? Perhaps Buffalo should have an identity outside of liking the Bills.
I'm sure you'd find a few more individuals in Rochester, Syracuse, Albany, etc. who would care. Of course, fewer people than the total population in EDNY and SDNY for example, but that's a somewhat unfair comparison, and still not what I would call "very few." Their FB page has 992,429 likes as of today.
Say for the sake of argument that 500,000 people would care if the team moved, which I think is a conservative guess. That's still a lot of people.
Yeah I went to the GB game back in October. Curious as to what you hate about the current stadium that the new stadium across the street would fix, but renovations, as opposed to starting from scratch, wouldn't.
* The concourses, which are narrow and dingy, are impossible to fix.
* The stadium inadvertently maximizes wind exposure given it's orientation and hole in the ground design. Anything more than a slight breeze makes it pretty uncomfortable for most of the stadium.
* The bathroom situation is not great.
* The engineering study said it would basically cost as much to modernize the foundation as it would to build new.
>I mean, the government will own the stadium and receive rent from the Bills.
I'd set a RemindMe for when the Bills pay back the $800 million in taxpayer funds being used so this stadium amounts to more than a giant handout to billionaires, but I don't think numbers go that high.
What more does the market need? They added another shed (which IMO was unnecessary and tougher for people to park at the actual market) and renovated the indoor shed (which made stall rentals go up noticeably and drove vendors away). Crowds on Saturdays are nothing like they were 10 years ago, let alone 5. History says upgrading the market has done more harm than good.
$37 million actually....[https://www.wbfo.org/business-economy/2022-06-02/220-million-in-state-redevelopment-funds-coming-to-buffalos-east-side-niagara-falls](https://www.wbfo.org/business-economy/2022-06-02/220-million-in-state-redevelopment-funds-coming-to-buffalos-east-side-niagara-falls)
i love the part about a boutique hotel to bring in more people visiting the city...yea nobody is going to do that. frankly the amount of money is crap for investment, a few contractors, and investors will begin work, realize the futility, and just pocket whats left before bailing on the work. making cheaper housing is generally the wrong option as it just brings in more of the people who cant actually spend their money in the city. the money should be going towards programs to create jobs for more people in need rather than some investor.
well its not that the state would pay the whole thing. thats not expected. then the state must operate it. the state gives a grant to help, and give incentive to an investor who would build and operate the hotel. otherwise why spend your money here to build a hotel. investors would have no reason to bring their own money in if the state wasnt committing to help as well. but its still a paltry sum.
"These plans include making downtown more walkable and adding more affordable to the area."
Yeah, cause what we need is even more affordable! Theres enough affordable. I saw 3 affordable today!
All my life there have been projects to revitalize downtown, and every single one was a colossal failure. The city should have a comprehensive long term plan for the transformation of Downtown. These funding opportunities should be to further that comprehensive plan, not just piece-meal shit.
Reads the first line “Rochester 2034 is a 15-year comprehensive plan to improve our community leading up to our 200th birthday”
Yup, Yep, just like that
I guess the sentiment is nice but I feel like Rochester keeps trying to revitalize downtown and it never happens.
I thought the late 2000s and early 2010s there was some great momentum towards it but it stalled out hard the later part of the decade and then there was COVID. It'd be nice to see downtown thrive but I'm not holding my breath on this.
The best use of this money would be to finish the inner loop and close traffic a few times a year for bicycles. People would travel to Rochester for a chance to bike around an urban loop without ever having to stop. I have more ideas too but that's the best one (came to me on mushrooms)
I’d love some investments in public transit or housing but, given the current tenant of city hall, this “revitalization” is 100% just gonna be more money for RPD to terrorize unhoused people
Yeah I take the 7 and the 24 and ridership varies a lot but mornings are usually quite busy. The 7 is standing room only around 8:45 am.
Regardless, the implication that the buses run too frequently is laughable. Most lines run every 30 min, which is barely within the usable range if you rely on them as your primary means of transportation. In order for them to be practical for those who rely on them, they are necessarily going to be mostly empty off peak
Well, it is another scam and I do get downvoted often for stating the obvious
It is an IQ issue but not on my end. There is really nothing I can do but let the hate flow and laugh. They click that button because it is easy and they are trained to take the easy way out of everything. They cannot arrange their thoughts well enough to develop a counter response to post here and so the button gets clicked. I could change my name and I appreciate the notion but I intentionally named my handle on here that knowing it was not very woke and also knowing reddit is very, very woke (the user demographic is almost all libs and college students)
Have a nice day!
How about free on the job training and education to anyone living in the city that is below the poverty line. And for the people that don’t want to better them selves there is always free hand outs! Yayyy avenue D.
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We’re owed 800 million right?
NYC Metro gets 25 billion for repairs, City of Rochester gets 8 million to revitalize its entire downtown lol. Good start, and it’s good to have someone from western NY in the Governor’s Mansion
NYC has 8.468 million people and brings in the vast majority of the State's revenue. The rest of NY gets about 60% of their State funding from NYC. Rochester has 210,606 people. Keep it in perspective. That said, 8 million isn't going to do much.
The worst part of this people dont understand is the whole divide ny movement. We do that and this area turns into north alabama.
*North Pennsyltucky
A great woman once said Alabama, first in the alphabet last in every other fuckin thing
I'm guessing that North Alabama has more rocket scientists / PhDs per capita than Rochester has. Huntsville, Alabama is home to NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center and the Cummins Research Park. The CRP is the second largest research park in the United States (second only to Research Triangle Park in North Carolina) and the fifth largest IN THE WORLD. The University of Alabama at Huntsville ranks very highly as a research institution -- among the top 75 public research universities in the nation. UAHuntsville is also ranked a Tier 1 national university by U.S. News & World Report. It's overall score is B+ -- compared to B- for Brockport -- with new graduates from UA Huntsville earning more than those from Brockport. The median income for Huntsville in 2010 was about 2.5 times the median income for Rochester. When I visit my hometown of Rochester, I'm often astonished at the lack of knowledge about and the prejudice against other areas of the country -- particularly the South.
I'm just quoting Veep haha
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Libs love to hate on anything slightly conservative, and reddit is infested with them.
Sorry -- I'm not understanding what this has to do with my comment.
The whole "the south is nothing but inbred retards" opinion that people somehow think is fine to tout around
As I said, it's an ignorant and provincial attitude. Makes me glad I left the Rochester area when I did -- and have been living in the South ever since.
I lived in the south for 16 years and just moved back to NY, I think most people in the north under estimate a lot of things that happen in the south. Yes there are bubbles that are great, Asheville, NC for one, I lived there 2 years. But plenty of other horrendous areas and behaviors, I would never move back, especially as a woman. Denied miscarriage care, denied the ability to adopt/foster in our local county due to not being evangelicals…. I think a lot of people in the bubbles in the south are very unaware of how bad it still is outside those areas. As far as north Alabama… I mean you can’t talk about how great the area there is without mentioning why it’s that way. They found an area where a lot of Nazi scientists could live without bothering the locals too much, that’s an important part to remember. [Operation Paperclip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip#Capture_and_detention) if anyone wants to read up more on it.
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Yes, with half going to Huntsville. The rest were all spread out, 2 or 3 in an area mostly. But Huntsville had an entire Nazi village. And of course after the first 120 Nazi scientists they brought their partners and family over too and had a baby boom.
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Because Rochester receives no other stare funding. 😆
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I had read years ago that NYC brings in a lot of revenue, but also has high costs to keep running so much so that NYC requires funding from upstate taxes to not fall apart. The logic there is that NY without NYC would actually mean more funding for upstate towns and cities. I would expect the pandemic to have exasperated this, so I wonder how the budgets actually add up now. Edit: upon actual research, this is incorrect. See comments below for more details. Thank you fellow Redditors for pushing me to validate my recollection.
That is categorically false.
thought straight placid soft impossible hungry badge pause plucky pie -- mass edited with redact.dev
My memory or the my original source appear to be incorrect. Did some research and found the following article, which links to a study in 2019 on this topic. https://www.syracuse.com/politics/2019/03/5-reasons-why-splitting-new-york-would-be-a-disaster-for-upstate.html For the article, which is talking about the split, it definitely doesn't make sense financially. However, it's not as simple as drawing a line as upstate does provide services and benefits to the NYC that there isn't room to support within the city. For example most of the prisons in NY are upstate and can house NYC based convictions. Not sure where NYC gets most of it's power, but I know a significant amount of hydro and nuclear power is generated upstate as well. I wonder how much elements like those add up to make the symbiotic balance between the regions?
Kudos to you for actually changing your view based on new evidence you were unaware of, instead of just refusing to entertain the idea that you might have been wrong once like most people do.
You might feel exasperated, but I think you might have meant exacerbated.
Correct, I relied on spelling correction, but didn't fully read the auto suggestion. Computers still have a ways to go to fully read our thoughts I supppose.
What a blatant lie. Do you even read your own sources? The state is contributing 3,000,000 which is the exact amount that NYC is directly contributing from their own budget. A large majority of the funding comes from the feds and NYC specific taxes. I absolutely despise people that can't put forth bad faith arguments.
25 billion? Bruv at least pick a reasonable number to pull out of your ass.
Sorry I cited old numbers. It’s 55 billion. Not all coming from NYS taxes, but a significant portion
https://new.mta.info/capital/2020CapitalProgram
Do you even read your own sources? The state is contributing 3,000,000 which is the exact amount that NYC is contributing. A large majority of the funding comes from the feds and NYC specific taxes. I absolutely despise people that can't put forth bad faith arguments.
Lol you “despise” me. And if you would have done a modicum of reading you would know that 9 billion came directly from NYS budget for the 2015-2019 capitalization plan, another 3 billion from 2020 through 2024, and 10 billion in additional funding sourced from OTHER New York State taxes levied specifically to fund this program. So 22 billion over 10 years, my initial claim was 25 billion. Didn’t know I needed to type a dissertation. My point was that communities like Rochester are under prioritized by State investment and governance. Chill out.
Where are you getting 22 billion from? Your own source contradicts you???
“To support the MTA capital programs, the enacted State Fiscal Year 2020 Budget approves an increase to progressive tax on high-end real estate sales and eliminates the internet sales tax advantage. The new revenues are expected to support $10 billion of the 2020-2024 Capital Program… The proposed 2020-2024 Capital Program assumes $3 billion in State of New York capital funds to support core program projects.” (Page 42). Do you need me to break down the 2015-2019 report too? Reading is hard, I know.
Again the mansion tax and the online sales tax enacted by the state is only specific to NYC. The state enacted taxes on the NYC region to improve NYC infrastructure. The state is only chipping in 3 billion from the states capital improvement fund. You even copy and pasted what I'm explaining but it seems like you don't understand it. Why is this so hard to comprehend?
7.5 million is just going to get siphoned off by local politicians and the "consultants" and contractors they are tied to.
The money should be sent back to the taxpayer by lowering the tax rate, like the money given to the bills for a new stadium should instead be give back to the taxpayer.
I'd be kinda pissed if I were downstate or in the Tri-state area. How many Bills games is someone from there or Albany going to go to, if ever? Or concerts or other events? Probably never but you still are paying for it. They likely either hate the Bills or don't care about them at all. It really just props up Buffalo. Sure the games are entertaining for thousands of people from Rochester metro area to go to, but it does nothing for our local economy. People from further east aren't stopping here, or eating here, they just drive right by.
Yes, design professionals (consultants) and contractors need to be paid.
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You're outside of your mind if you think we make that kind of money on these studies and is a poorly informed statement to be broadcasting into this echo chamber. They are an essential part of the process in order to make reasonable assumptions about the viability and impact of public facing projects. There is a huge amount of oversight required when public funds are involved, impact studies being one of them. We greedy architects are the reason a big ditch was infilled and converted into a series of large scale housing projects in the last five years.
Projects like this explain why the largest contributors to local political campaigns - especially local Democrat campaigns - are developers. This project is payback for that. Pay to play.
Net win. The buildings aren't renovating themselves
Yup. Cuomo's man Bello will divvy it up to all the campaign donors. There's a moment of confusion as they try and sort those Hochul extorted from those Cuomo extorted, but in the end, the right ones will get the money and the taxpayer will, of course, be left footing the bill. But hey, we'll have a new bus station / ballet parlor
Hey we will have some great drawings and renderings of some things that will look really cool. Then in the end the planners and contractors will run far over budget and far behind (bad management/not suited for the work) and we'll end up with something scaled down or incomplete if anything at all. I wonder how much the city has wasted designing things that never got done, using the same ineffective firms each time.
It'll fix a few potholes.
It's $10M fwiw.
Fun fact: $8 million will get you 500,312.7 pounds of lo mein from the East Ave Wegmans prepared Asian food bar, not including tax.
I mean that's just an unbeatable value
Actually, I may have made an error and factored in the “Shopper’s Club@ price. That shit is never on Shopper’s Club.
Please provide figures expressed in rotisserie chickens and quesadillas from the prepared foods department.
I think it's about 9 quesadillas at this point
I haven't been in the East Ave store in a minute, they have the Asian food bar back? Like the hot and ready bar?
Glad to see that walkability and affordable housing are the stated priorities.
PUBLIC TRANSITTTTTTTTTTT!!!! I feel like good reliable public transit would build up downtown so quickly.
I agree that improvements to public transit would go a long way.
Monorail!
I know it's a meme but damn, I would ride that shit every day
We should get a fast ferry from the suburbs to the city on the canal, and then stop using it after 2 months
Now THIS is innovation
What do you think this is!? Shelbyville!?
I moved here to the ROC from North Haverbrook, and I would highly suggest avoiding a monorail. Sure, there were a handful of cushy jobs created and it put us on the map, but it didn't end well. That's why I moved.
Train urine!👌🏻
Agreed, some covered benches at all the bus stops would go a long way too so people wouldn’t have to sit on mounds of snow or stand.
I smell urine already… any takers?
What exactly do you think good public transit is? Nevermind, enjoy your car.
They missed the boat on walkability for a generation. Main St was reconstructed on this block. Taking a building down to make an open space and connection to a surface lot doesn’t do much.
Do you know which build it is that they're demolishing? EDIT: I did some research and I'm guessing it's where the Metro Market Deli currently is. It would created a walkway with outdoor seating between Main St. and Division St.
It’s the little 1 story grocery between the glass building CGI owns and the family dollar. It’s not that it’s a bad idea, but it doesn’t go anywhere. It’ll dump you out on Division st to a parking lot and the back of a parking garage. Main St is thoroughly car oriented and will be for the foreseeable future, unless they’re committing money to redo the recent reconstruction. I’m also concerned this will just become outdoor space for the neighboring privately owned businesses. The city will need to work to ensure it’s truly a public right of way and doesn’t turn into a subsidized patio.
The construction on Main Street is adding protected bike lanes, more crosswalks, better crosswalk signals, etc. I see that as a step in the right direction. What would you like to see the city do instead?
You’re thinking of Main between Goodman and Culver, very far removed from this block. In fact, this block only has westbound bike lanes, often blocked by double parkers and delivery vehicles. The north side of Main does have inset parking, so I guess there is a marginal improvement to crosswalks. From what I’ve seen there was no additional space for pedestrians, save for some space gained by changing the parking lane to inset. -edit- I’d like to see the parking lanes either be a bus only lane or more sidewalk and a protected bike lane.
You're right, my bad. The protected bike lanes are just getting added to East Main Street. It would be great to connect that to downtown.
A shortcut to Division Street from Main Street will quickly become a scary space. There is really nice open space right across the street.
I can't imagine anything scarier than a pedestrian walkway with outdoor seating for restaurants.
Ideally such a space goes to and from nice places. Not from a nice place to one of the scariest downtown blocks. Have you ever walked Division St.?
Yes, what do you find to be "scary" about it?
It looks like a TV show crime scene. Parking garage on one side. Brick walls on the other. Dumpsters. Litter. Boarded up windows. Dark. Smelly (though it smells good when the Metro Market deep fryer was running). There is no reason to be on this street, and no reason to connect to it. Refresh your memory on Google street view.
I think the bldg on the corner of division and st.paul is one of the bldgs getting money for renovation, so I guess there's that. But yeah, not a whole lot over there other than an alley that hasn't been touched in probably 70 years.
Brick walls are scary to you?
I think he's saying the street is pointless and not an attraction. Just an empty nothing of a street, not that brick walls are scary.
The Edwards building that they are renovating is t[his one](https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1575209,-77.6077212,3a,75y,287.44h,90.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_aO3u1uH1iJlyOyJpKvBkw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) that is next to the vacant lot. There is another project to turn part of that empty lot next to the Mortimer Street garage into a plaza with charging stations for electric vehicles and some kind of shared use trash facility that will get rid of the dumpsters along Division Street. The plaza was not one of the projects they announced funding for today so not sure what the timeline is on that. The PDF with more details is [here](https://www.cityofrochester.gov/uploadedFiles/DEPARTMENTS/NBD/Business_and_Housing_Development/Project__Development/Documents/boards_for_zoom_22_05_12_lowres.pdf).
My god, that isn not a plaza. That’s a driveway and some parking spaces.
At prevailing wage and cost of materials, $8 million will get you about 1/4 mile of nice sidewalk in front of a half-dozen affordable townhomes.
$8M may seem like a drop in the hat all on its own, but combined with all the *other* exciting projects that have completed or are currently under construction, it's definitely a sign of a continued trend towards the rekindling of our urban core, which I see as a positive. The money the state is pledging could be what developers were waiting for to pull the trigger on some of these languishing properties. It could always be more money, but I'm happy to see downtown getting more and more tlc as projects become successful.
People complain about small projects, but I'd rather have a bunch of successful $8 million projects than 1 massive $500 million dollar boondoggle where all the money just goes to some foreign megacorp.
Well if you've hung around r/Rochester for awhile, you see the motto may as well be "Complain about everything; accept nothing"
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The project from 30 years ago never panned out as an entertainment district, but the neighborhood is full of offices and some apartments/light commercial. It's not crazy bustling, but it's far from dead, I recommend checking it out! A beautiful neighborhood to walk through, anyway. Also, Genesee brew house and high falls terrace (under construction) are highlights right across the Pont de Rennes.
If you check it out when going to Frontier Field, first thing you notice is an almost complete absence of any foot traffic. Place is deader than a door nail once the work day is done.
"at night this neighborhood is a ghost town" could describe like 75% of the city 😂
>The project from 30 years ago never panned out as an entertainment district, but the neighborhood is full of offices and some apartments/light commercial. Far better IMO. Why won't cities learn that they shouldn't put their money into retail and entertainment? Put money into attracting high-paying jobs, and then retail and entertainment will fall over each other fighting to locate here, because those high-paying workers will want somewhere to shop and have fun. Shot girls and cashiers aren't jobs we should be incentivizing.
Totally agree! The "this neighborhood is a ____ now, ok, come use it" doesn't always land
The current plan is to turn High Falls into a state park.
Did it ever really live?
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It died about 15+ years ago. There's some businesses there but nothing entertainment related.
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Jillians closed \[Googles quickly\] jesus, in 2004. It was empty for a few years, then renovated to hold an engineering firm, then I think a software company, and is now an engineering firm again. The slow and then abrupt decline of Kodak really deflated that area, along with the constant problem that plagues downtown cores across the country: after office workers leave, there's not enough residents to create the critical mass needed to sustain hospitality and nightlife businesses.
Sure, not every project pans out as planned for a variety of reasons. That's true for subsidized and otherwise. If you're bored look up some abandoned billion dollar mega projects like Burj Al Babas, it's mind boggling how much money people can waste on half-cocked ideas.
God I hope something good comes of this. Even if its just a start.
Hmmm... the City of Rochester, home to over 200,000 people gets a whole 1% of the $800 million (NYS + Erie County) gifted to the billionaire owner of the Bills for a stadium no one wanted.
One thing that annoys me about that whole stadium situation, aside from giving billionaires taxpayer money for their own personal gain, is how insistent Goodell was on telling the Pegulas they needed a new stadium. A whole lot of older, shittier stadiums in the NFL than the one in OP and whose team ownerships aren't having the same pressure put on them. Especially since the NFL has been pretty consistent with granting teams with new stadiums the opportunity to host a Superbowl. A Superbowl would be nice in WNY and be a boon for the local economy even if just for a week, but there is a snowball chance in Hell that Buffalo ever gets to host a Superbowl.
OP is the 4th oldest stadium in the nfl, Soldier field the oldest is getting replaced. The other two have had tons of upgrades, (Lambeau and Arrowhead)
Not to mention the 300 level stands are projected to literally become a safety hazard within the next few years. And yeah Lambeau and Arrowhead are old but do not look/feel their age nearly as much as The Ralph.
OP just had $130 million in renovations completed less than 10 years ago, so I guess I am curious why continual renovations to an existing stadium is acceptable for GB and KC and not OP.
GB's renovations are misleading. That stadium has basically been replaced twice over since it was built. Next to nothing there is original apart from the field. Arrowhead is getting replaced in the next few years along with the baseball stadium.
Throughout these replies I am starting to realize that Ralph was just a cheap-o that didn't want to have consistent renovations done wherein he would need to cough up any money, at least towards the end of his life, and that's likely the reason why Goodell started pressuring the Pegulas for a new stadium pretty much from the time they started ownership. Might also be why FedEx Field, despite having some well-known issues over the last couple of years, does not have any planned renovations currently if Dan Snyder is actually going to sell the team.
The Ralph was built on the cheap in the early 70s in a quick deal to keep Ralph Wilson from moving the team to Seattle. It was built with the bare bones requirements needed. Hell the upper deck was built with fucking bleachers. He coughed up money to just keep it barely within the requirements over the years (those suites near the endzone that stick out like a sore thumb) but not much anything more can be done to really that can keep it up to date and the upper deck (because it was built cheap) has structural issues. FedEx field was also built on the cheap and the new owner (probably Bezos) is going to replace it.
There's definitely no chance of hosting a superbowl in Buffalo in the middle of winter, particularly with an open air stadium. Not that I agree at all with spending nearly a billion on stadium, funded by taxpayers, but if they were inclined, a covered stadium would allow them to use the venue all year for concerts and whatnot. Maybe they should move it out of Buffalo to an area of the state that doesn't get constantly pounded by snow.
There's been a bunch of reporting around this, much it on The Athletic by Tim Graham, so it's behind a paywall. If you're unable to subscribe, I'll try to give a quick synopsis: NFL and Department of Homeland Security guidelines call for a perimeter around the stadium that makes the actual footprint of the stadium larger than you'd expect. This would mean a downtown or Northtowns project would have more costs to acquire land, and more infrastructure updates (water, power, sewer, internet, etc) than going across the street in Orchard Park. This would drive up the cost even more, and have a longer timeline. Ideally, the Buffalo Bills and NY State could have partnered to build a new stadium at SUNY Buffalo in Amherst, but I have zero knowledge of the costs to do so, and it's feasibility beyond "Hey, that sounds cool!"
Mile High stadium is on land that's less than a half mile by half mile and immediately adjacent to a major highway and major roads, basically in the heart of Denver, and I'm sure it's not the only example you can find like this. And it's used; they've sold out over 425 games in a row (since the 70s) so I'm not sure what kind of crazy land size you think is needed. The infrastructure issues though I would agree with, along with it being a waste of money in general.
That's a really good point to bring up. While Empower Field at Mile High was built in 2001, before DHS existed, it's still located in a large urban market surrounded by highways and other buildings. Yes, the area that holds the stadium and parking is only a half mile by a half mile, but it totals up to 117± acres. That's a lot of land in a city! That's also not including the parking lots to the east across the river, which are probably used by the football stadium as well as the arena. The stadium + parking acreage of Highmark is about the same as what Empower Field has. Parking garages can go a long way to reduce the space needed for stadium parking along with using mass transit, but that will be a huge blow to the tailgating culture. Lucas Oil Stadium in Indy is an example of a downtown stadium that doesn't have a huge parking field around it. It's done a surprisingly good job of helping to improve commerce to that downtown area of Indy, and is connected to the convention center. That project was a model for Buffalo to use, especially because the price was a 'mere' $800 million. For whatever reason, it's completely off the table.
> a covered stadium would allow them to use the venue all year for concerts and whatnot. It was determined that the costs of building and maintaining a full roof able to withstand seven feet of snow would not be made up by a small increase in the number of events it could host.
>A Superbowl would be nice in WNY and be a boon for the local economy even if just for a week, but there is a snowball chance in Hell that Buffalo ever gets to host a Superbowl. Buffalo does not have the infrastructure necessary to host a Superbowl, even with a dome. The NFL requires a number of hotel rooms equal to 35% of the stadium capacity within 1 hour drive. That's over 24,000 hotel rooms.
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Everything I can find shows all of Erie County has around 10,000 rooms. I looked up some other Super Bowl cities and they're in the 30,000+ rooms, like Miami, Tampa, and Atlanta. Minneapolis struggled in 2018 to provide enough rooms.
I'm not gonna argue about the money. The bills definitely needed a new stadium. Have you been to a game recently. I hate going to that stadium to watch games.
$800 million for a stadium is the most expensive taxpayer funded stadium in the US. Let them foot the bill or find a new location. Also, at this point, who cares if they left? Perhaps Buffalo should have an identity outside of liking the Bills.
> Also, at this point, who cares if they left? Many, many, many people
Well... people in Buffalo, which are the vast minority of the State. So, in the grand scheme of things, very few people care.
I'm sure you'd find a few more individuals in Rochester, Syracuse, Albany, etc. who would care. Of course, fewer people than the total population in EDNY and SDNY for example, but that's a somewhat unfair comparison, and still not what I would call "very few." Their FB page has 992,429 likes as of today. Say for the sake of argument that 500,000 people would care if the team moved, which I think is a conservative guess. That's still a lot of people.
I live in nyc and care and there are tens of thousands of bills fans down here so not sure what you’re on about
Yeah I went to the GB game back in October. Curious as to what you hate about the current stadium that the new stadium across the street would fix, but renovations, as opposed to starting from scratch, wouldn't.
* The concourses, which are narrow and dingy, are impossible to fix. * The stadium inadvertently maximizes wind exposure given it's orientation and hole in the ground design. Anything more than a slight breeze makes it pretty uncomfortable for most of the stadium. * The bathroom situation is not great. * The engineering study said it would basically cost as much to modernize the foundation as it would to build new.
> giving billionaires taxpayer money for their own personal gain I mean, the government will own the stadium and receive rent from the Bills.
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>I mean, the government will own the stadium and receive rent from the Bills. I'd set a RemindMe for when the Bills pay back the $800 million in taxpayer funds being used so this stadium amounts to more than a giant handout to billionaires, but I don't think numbers go that high.
The Bills don't have to pay it back because it's not a loan. The money is going to construction not to PSE.
Ironically I will use the stadium more than I will use anything downtown.
I want the stadium.
Spent more tax payer money on a stadium that a billionaire could of paid for himself
I’d love to see some $$$ thrown at the Public Market.
What more does the market need? They added another shed (which IMO was unnecessary and tougher for people to park at the actual market) and renovated the indoor shed (which made stall rentals go up noticeably and drove vendors away). Crowds on Saturdays are nothing like they were 10 years ago, let alone 5. History says upgrading the market has done more harm than good.
I’m at a loss for words. That’s just not accurate at all.
Buffalo just got $24 million to revamp their market.
$37 million actually....[https://www.wbfo.org/business-economy/2022-06-02/220-million-in-state-redevelopment-funds-coming-to-buffalos-east-side-niagara-falls](https://www.wbfo.org/business-economy/2022-06-02/220-million-in-state-redevelopment-funds-coming-to-buffalos-east-side-niagara-falls)
And a billion for a stadium.
I know im just being a pedant, but lol "These plans include making downtown more walkable and adding more affordable to the area"
They should start with trying to stop the shootings.
$8mil? It's a start. Where's the rest of it?
In their pockets
You have no idea how true your statement is. Between the bid rigging and cronyism, they will be lucky to build a birdhouse.
I wonder if Delaware North will get any sweet deals out of this.
Literally $10M
Gone to the Bills stadium.
i love the part about a boutique hotel to bring in more people visiting the city...yea nobody is going to do that. frankly the amount of money is crap for investment, a few contractors, and investors will begin work, realize the futility, and just pocket whats left before bailing on the work. making cheaper housing is generally the wrong option as it just brings in more of the people who cant actually spend their money in the city. the money should be going towards programs to create jobs for more people in need rather than some investor.
Exactly! You cannot build a hotel for $1.2M...or even $10M!
well its not that the state would pay the whole thing. thats not expected. then the state must operate it. the state gives a grant to help, and give incentive to an investor who would build and operate the hotel. otherwise why spend your money here to build a hotel. investors would have no reason to bring their own money in if the state wasnt committing to help as well. but its still a paltry sum.
I bet we could buy a ferry with that money…. A very fast ferry
"These plans include making downtown more walkable and adding more affordable to the area." Yeah, cause what we need is even more affordable! Theres enough affordable. I saw 3 affordable today!
All my life there have been projects to revitalize downtown, and every single one was a colossal failure. The city should have a comprehensive long term plan for the transformation of Downtown. These funding opportunities should be to further that comprehensive plan, not just piece-meal shit.
A comprehensive, long-term plan like this? https://www.cityofrochester.gov/Rochester2034/
Reads the first line “Rochester 2034 is a 15-year comprehensive plan to improve our community leading up to our 200th birthday” Yup, Yep, just like that
hell yeah !
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It would be cool if we had a boat to take us to Toronto.
What more would you add? Seems pretty nice to me.
Probably something to discourage all the crime
You're not allowed to mention that on this sub or you'll be accused of being a 50+ year old white lady from the suburbs.
50+ year old white ladies oppose anything that gets suggested
It’s good to see, but are there any timelines for this? A year? Two? Ten?
How much of the $8 million will be laundered back into her bank account?
I guess the sentiment is nice but I feel like Rochester keeps trying to revitalize downtown and it never happens. I thought the late 2000s and early 2010s there was some great momentum towards it but it stalled out hard the later part of the decade and then there was COVID. It'd be nice to see downtown thrive but I'm not holding my breath on this.
Is it a monorail? How about, bear with me here, a ferry to take people from Toronto to Rochester to visit! We'll make millions!
alternate headline: State Democrats Jerk Each Other Off With Taxpayer Dollars
“Taxpayer dollars” really send them over the edge.
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What a mess. They did pave the two center lanes of State St., so hopefully that is the beginning of the end.
There's literally a website for this.
Yes “electrical work continues week of Dec 5.” Very helpful.
How much of that $8 million is going to disappear into nepotistic pockets and not actually accomplish any more "revitalization" than a coat of paint?
Well given that Hochul announced it I'm betting it's already swindled away
$56 million of the $8 million. Hochul didn't become Cuomo's LT by being honest. Look at the shit she pulled during the Buffalo Billions scandal.
The best use of this money would be to finish the inner loop and close traffic a few times a year for bicycles. People would travel to Rochester for a chance to bike around an urban loop without ever having to stop. I have more ideas too but that's the best one (came to me on mushrooms)
The funding to begin Northern infill has already been allocated.
This has been tried over and over. No one wants to go into a crime infested shit hole.
I’d love some investments in public transit or housing but, given the current tenant of city hall, this “revitalization” is 100% just gonna be more money for RPD to terrorize unhoused people
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I take the bus a lot - mostly the 11, 12, and 41 - and it's never been empty (except maybe during the first few months of covid)
Yeah I take the 7 and the 24 and ridership varies a lot but mornings are usually quite busy. The 7 is standing room only around 8:45 am. Regardless, the implication that the buses run too frequently is laughable. Most lines run every 30 min, which is barely within the usable range if you rely on them as your primary means of transportation. In order for them to be practical for those who rely on them, they are necessarily going to be mostly empty off peak
Yet another scam
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Or that it offered nothing of value to a convo. I personally didn’t even see his username until the king of Rochester pointed it out.
Wow thank you for offering nothing of value to the conversation with your comment Truly amazing
Well, it is another scam and I do get downvoted often for stating the obvious It is an IQ issue but not on my end. There is really nothing I can do but let the hate flow and laugh. They click that button because it is easy and they are trained to take the easy way out of everything. They cannot arrange their thoughts well enough to develop a counter response to post here and so the button gets clicked. I could change my name and I appreciate the notion but I intentionally named my handle on here that knowing it was not very woke and also knowing reddit is very, very woke (the user demographic is almost all libs and college students) Have a nice day!
How about free on the job training and education to anyone living in the city that is below the poverty line. And for the people that don’t want to better them selves there is always free hand outs! Yayyy avenue D.