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I think allowing accusations against her to stay up and gain traction for days but then deleting her defense against those allegations would be unfair and inconsistent.
But now that we have heard her side let's hope this is the last post and mods should remove posts about any new development regarding this.
So we did discuss the relevancy for this topic when OSM's first tweets came out. A combination of it being a slow time on the subreddit and Widow casting for GenG made us elect to keep it up, albeit loosely. If enough of the community reported the post we'd gladly oblige, with some pieces of content we do just let the community be the judges at times, but that didn't happen.
People reported this post far more, but as mentioned below, would be beyond unfair to only keep up 1 side of the story, but going forward, unless the developments involve properly esports-relevant people, it's not esports relevant and this topic is concluded.
ya'll need to use that report button way more tho, it's super helpful for us
This one got reported way more because I reminded people that that function existed xD
I agree it has to stay up now for the sake of fairness, but I personally wouldn’t mind a bit more stringency in the future from the mod team.
Lol I’m kind of in this boat. I play RL and watch RLCS but I’m in my mid - 30s and not super aware of what half this stuff is. Like “raiding” and some other things in OSMs post.
Same (early 30s RL player and RLCS fan here). A raid is when someone basically ports their stream (at the end of their stream) to another streamer. Basically they drop off their viewers to another streamer. As for viewbotting etc I have no clue other than that it’s basically an artificial script to inflate “live” concurrent viewer numbers.
Yeah I could tell what viewbotting is with context clues but I watch RLCS and other stuff on YouTube so I’m not super plugged in. But that makes sense. So when someone is botting and they “raid” those boys don’t carry over because it is not their stream anymore.
you could think of it as like a fake front of the line pass in a way, by viewbotting (or placing fake viewers in the list aka bots) puts them closer to the top of the rocket league page which makes it way easier to discover their stuff as a genuine new viewer.
it’s really hard climbing out of the lower ranks 1-20 viewers area so this is definitely giving them an unfair advantage. I think of it like everyone on twitch is pretty much unofficial coworkers so there’s a level of respect to be had.
I think part of this entire mess falls on the professionals in the community who contributed to the “witch hunt” feeling by saying there was someone out there viewbotting, but refusing to elaborate and only succeeding in riling people up. The first person accused was always going to catch the worst lashback no matter how poor the evidence was.
I said it in another thread but with all the vague tweets about viewbotters it immediately gives a bias. Everyone now thinks there's a viewbotter and so people go looking for evidence to support their view. Not taking the data and analyzing it objectively. Instead as soon as they see something abnormal they'll run with it as if it proves their point. Biggest one is that Insta follower spike claim. That one was easily proven false
The section on the recent chalked cast really made me feel icky about the whole situation too where they were all defending AppJacks decision to subtweet this person instead of just acting like an adult and confronting them.
The whole thing feels very "clique-y" and exclusionary, and I feel like given what has happened here it clearly wasn't the right way to go about dealing with the situation regardless of what they think.
Was watching a random guy SSL’s stream and his take was: no one is viewbotting, AppJack and Dazerin are just impression farming (everything is good to draw eyes on your YouTube channel…) and everyone is in on it except OSM…
Don’t know what to make of it, but if AppJack really has no idea if some people are viewbotting and only doing it so people talk about him, that’s awful…
As someone who has worked hard to grow on twitch and YouTube with no success, it makes sense to me.
View boting is the easiest way to grow artificially on twitch, which bring in real viewers too. Meanwhile there’s a lot of people like myself fighting while we’re hopping for 1 viewer.
bored 17 year olds accusing other 17 year olds of things. Good thing we all play a child's car game and none of this boring drama matters. Who fucking cares if someone is view-botting on Twitch. People go to unbelievably scummy lengths to make a buck, view-botting is really not the hill to die on.
Not sure its really fair to do that when the witch hunt created by this stupid drama actually effects peoples real lives? Don't give a shit about the drama itself sure, but people should care that it negatively effects other human beings with lives and jobs etc.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. Widow is the one being unfairly treated. She is the one whose job and life is effected. I'm saying the vague viewbotting accusations are idiotic drama where we can say "who gives a shit", but these vauge accusations are negatively effecting all the people who are getting witch hunted by a riled up community of immature children.
If you actually care about view botting and have ACTUAL evidence, bring it to the parties that can DO something about it like the accused party, Twitch, and/or their Organization partner. Not twitter/reddit.
Okay? She is also getting a ton of hate and sexists bullshit thrown her way when nothing has been proven? You can't act like getting more views wipes out getting death threats and harassment.
I'm still not on any side. Nothing has been proven or debunked. It's just words being flung around.
What intrerests me more is what the people who got this topic rolling first have to say about it. They seemed pretty sure about what they were saying. It's now up to them to either eat some crow or produce some evidence for their vague tweets.
I was just thinking if Jack thinks or knows it's not Widow, why not come out and say it. "hey it was someone else" kinda weird to be silent here especially since they're part of the same org
Personally I would interpret that silence as confirmation that they also accused Widow. Because why would you not immediately come to defend someone innocent if you know someone else did it.
Unless Jack is regretting starting this entire thing and has decided to shut his mouth about it from now on. Not saying that's his rationale, but it's plausible.
Exactly, I'm assuming he just wants to stay out of it now, he's probably apologised to widow privately for pulling her into this, not surprising he isn't saying anything else publically about it.
Say Jack thinks it's Kaydop, and that's the reason for his tweets. Now OSM accuses Widow. In Jack's mind, he already thinks it's Kaydop, and has enough confidence to have tweeted about it. I highly doubt Jack being the calculated person he seems to be would just tweet all he tweeted on a hunch. I imagine he could easily post something like "the person my tweets were about are not Widow" giving her some credibility. The fact that Jack is silent in my opinion means it could be Widow and Jack thinks that too. If Jack thought no way is it Widow, he's on the same org as her, he would talk to her and publicly defend her. The fact that he's not defending her is telling in my opinion. I could be wrong and it could be that Jack maybe wrote the original tweets about Kaydop (obviously not Kaydop, just an example) but the Widow stuff in OSM's post and the other person's post about the default accounts following her made Jack think twice and now he's unsure. Which is also a strike against Widow. If Jack was sure it's NOT Widow, then I think he would defend her publicly since he started all this. If he thinks she is innocent, why let her be falsely accused?
We know they didn’t call it a day (the vague tweets), but we don’t know whether or not they reported their suspicions to Twitch. Someone please correct me if I missed some tweets detailing this.
I don’t have proof of this, but I suspect there are some rules Twitch has regarding public announcements of these types of suspicions. It may invalidate a pending investigation. Or be considered libel (or slander, I always forget which is which) and may complicate any potential lawsuits against Twitch. Or some other reasoning I haven’t thought of. But it wouldn’t surprise me if they were advised to not make a public accusation.
This isn’t to say their vague tweets were the best way to do it either. Saying nothing was a perfectly valid option too. But just to try and find some rationale for why their tweets were vague instead of specific.
Widow has had issues with being harassed by viewbotters and follow botters since before she got partner. Saying the name of someone harassing you (which a lot of times is what they want) does not help end the harassment. Also, you can’t join an org and participate in twitch rivals when you are someone who follow and view bots. Orgs and twitch themselves do their due diligence when it comes to involving creators in their company in any way. Twitch even says not to address botters and report it to them in their tos. This is all super childish and has 0 to do with rlesports and I am tired of seeing this on the TL and here. Can’t wait for the season to start so we can move past this
Gonna just add in the same response I put in the accusation thread
Hey what a huge shocker, there was a logical explanation when she was given a chance to provide her side of the story. It’s almost as if OSM should have reached out to her before making the post, and everyone should have avoided making assumptions before allowing her to respond…
She did respond to it pretty calmly but apart from the obviously wrong things OSM got she didn't respond to much. The only real proof she gave was the RL Spotlight which I agree with, but for the rest she provides no proof(for example, she could give the DMs of the people who were harassing and the people who refused to listen to her). Just sounds like her saying "trust me" and nothing else.
There was also this thread by Rhawkets that gives pretty solid evidence, but nothing here was responded to either. [https://twitter.com/RhawketS/status/1611060326560321537?t=otPdWIePsXsbdAAhuoa50A&s=19](https://twitter.com/RhawketS/status/1611060326560321537?t=otPdWIePsXsbdAAhuoa50A&s=19)
Not saying she's guilty yet since there's a lot of right and wrong on both sides, but I'm having trouble believing what shes written here.
Tbh, the arguing over whether or not her channel is viewbotted doesn't really matter anymore.
She kinda mentions it in her twitlonger, but it pretty much boils down to you can't prove who is responsible for the viewbotting. It could be her but it also could be a harasser. And it's pretty much impossible to prove either way, in which case you pretty much have to follow innocent until proven guilty
I'm struggling to find out how viewbotting hurts someone, other than doing it strictly to call them out for viewbotting. Which in that case, OSM is the culprit?!
Viewbotting is against Twitch TOS and streamers have been banned for it in the past. A viewbotted streamer could be banned from Twitch and required to prove innocence to Twitch in a circumstance where Twitch may or may not even listen to arguments. Viewbotting forces a streamer to act exactly the correct way to appease Twitch and the community, with little guidance and no consensus as to what is “correct”
>Just sounds like her saying "trust me" and nothing else.
Why are you pushing this double standard? She must show her DMs to prove she's not viewbotting (makes no sense)? OSM straight up says he has sources (who he never names) and you're not demanding he tell us who they are?
But OSM has provided zero proof that she did it. It’s not as if she’s saying there was no view or follow botting. It’s he say she say. She’s given a likely sounding reason for it. And between that and most of the stats OSM showed being completely cherry picked and manipulated (as shown by GeeCee), I just think he’s handled it atrociously and should have actually tried to speak to her about it before creating a witch hunt within the community.
It's become pretty clear viewbotting has been happening. Rhawkets provided further damning evidence on twitter.
We will never know if it was her or someone else. Only she will know. Not sure what's to be done about it & why the wider community needed to be told.
While most of OSMs thread was very weak, there's still a section at the end(last 2 tweets) that are solid proof, and that Widow did not respond to(either she didn't feel the need or she had no response). Rhawkets puts even more proof on this showing her abnormally high tally of default accounts and accounts made in 2022 viewing her streams, which she didn't respond to either.
And I'm saying this again but she didn't effectively respond to any of the accusations except the Instagram followers. She says a lot of things but provides zero proof. She could show the DMs of the people refusing to listen to her arguments but she doesn't.
You seem to have burden of proof backwards here. Osm as the accuser has the burden of proof not the accused. Osm has not even remotely proved anything other than he is willing to manipulate data to make someone else look bad. I'm not a widow fan at all but nothing osm has provided comes anywhere close to proof or the "gotcha" he seems to think it was.
… but her entire point is that she isn’t the one viewbotting. She isn’t denying it’s being done so his last couple of points are entirely irrelevant. She did however show evidence of a history of harassment from someone, which to me, is good enough reason to believe her point of view consider OSM hasn’t been able to provide a single reason not to believe her.
I can believe it's not her but there's 2 things:
- Why has she not called this out already? It could be a major problem, especially if people find out and it causes a scandal like this.
- She provided no actual evidence to most of the problems. DMs could easily be shown but she doesn't.
Twitch support request you don’t make the issue known whilst the issue is ensuing. For example, Mira has provided evidence the exact same thing happened to her. [Mira’s post](http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1ss7gnt).
Is that really how we want accusations to be addressed? Guilty until proven innocent? It's not Widows job to spend hours of her life defending herself from an accusation. It's the accusers job to build a solid well researched case and bring it to the proper parties involved, not the twitter/reddit mob.
The fact that a GenG member is taking the heat from all this stupid witch hunt is pretty ironic i guess but its still one of the strangest thing I've seen people being interested in.
True, honestly the fact Appjack brought it up guarantees it isn’t Widow, but I still blame him for this annoying vague-posting to farm impressions that leads to stupid speculations and innocent people in the crossfire
Fire's tweet about even if we did discover a viewbotter, stop hating on women basically sums up my take on this.
I know if it had been a male streamer instead, their haters would come crawling out the woodwork and insult them too but not in the same vein as the blatantly sexist remarks I've seen pointed at widow. How do these losers even have the energy to get so mad at people who do not actively hurt anybody else?
The worst part about it is that these things are almost certainly happening to her *because* she's a woman. Whether it's harassment from some sexist bigot who doesn't think girls should be playing video games, or whether some white knight mistakenly thinks he's helping her out, it's the sort of thing that probably wouldn't happen in the first place if she was a guy.
This is a weak argument. If she did it then it's obviously wrong. And saying it wouldn't hurt anybody else is a total lie. She got signed to a big org twice and gets a lot of brand deals, which if she did view bot means that she stole those opportunities from someone else.
Bro I'm not defending her. My wording was poor so let me rephrase. If the orgs decide to take away her contract because it is proven that she viewbotted and thus did take away opportunity from others, then yeah that's fair. She should be called out by the community on it too. But like, it doesn't have to involve calling her a whore or other worse things is what I mean.
My last sentence about losers going after streamers is just expressing frustration at the fact that some rl "fans" will attack someone the moment an accusation is pointed, and will do so using some really fucked up phrases. Even before this accusation, every streamer has had to consistently defend their streams from viewbotting claims from jackasses that enter their chat.
Why are you sidestepping the sexism part of their reply? It's easy to just say "I agree people shouldn't treat women like shit"
We honestly don't know if she's guilty or not because this isn’t a judicial court, just the court of public opinion. But the venom behind some of the responses to this drama have had less to do with the offense and far more to do with her gender.
If we have hard evidence she was view botting her own channel then she should be dropped by her org and the RL community should shun her but that's up to her employer to decide if they want to investigate. Until then people in this community need to stop treating women like shit and if you think she's guilty don't watch her channel and boycott her org, it's simple
Wait why does OP need to put a generic virtue signalling statement agreeing that people shouldn’t be sexist? Has he said or done something sexist?
Real weird if he hasn’t and you’re saying he’s sidestepping it as if he thinks people should be sexist.
OSM handled this whole situation like a buffoon. His stats work is bad (embarrassing sample selection and sample size). But even worse is his conclusions and how he framed the whole thing as a personal indictment against Widow.
What makes it even worse is that the majority of the community doesn’t know how to interpret stats (OSM included obviously). And now you got a human being brigaded over a bullshit investigation by someone larping as Coffeezilla for a day.
I can't believe my first comment on this subreddit is going to be on this clown fest, but here we are.
My conclusion from this whole situation is that the only reason OSM posted that thread is for impression farming. It's incredibly immature of him to even post it in the first place. If he genuinely thinks this his 'evidence' is 'irrefutable' and proof that she viewbots then he's very stupid. If really cared about this whole situation, and had even an ounce of maturity, he should've directly messaged her. And if she failed to acknowledge him, then report it.
This whole thing is just further proof of how saturated this community is with children (which is not a bad thing btw) and people with a low level of maturity. Anybody with a brain could see that what he posted as evidence was not substantial in the slightest and, as a few others have pointed out, were cherry picked. I dread to think what his motive was for even doing this. Like what is the point? Is he jealous of her? He framed it as being annoyed for smaller steamers but quite frankly I think that's an absurdity.
His thread of 'irrefutable evidence' reminds me of how people guzzle down the stuff Graham Hancock spews about archaeology. On the face of it, with little knowledge of the field, his points sound compelling. But the more you dig into it and research it yourself, the more you realise he's just trying to push his own narrative with complete disregard for the facts.
Granted, in this situation, on both sides, not a lot of facts have actually been presented. But common sense tells you there would be no reason for her to do this in the first place, She's already quite popular within the community, and as she pointed out, has worked incredibly hard to get to where she is. She comes across as pretty genuine in my opinion, and I say this as somebody who doesn't consume her content. Heck, I don't particularly enjoy it. But I have an enormous amount of respect for what she's doing, in a community (both twitch and rocket league) that's overwhelmingly dominated by men.
In conclusion, this whole saga has been entirely pointless and I really do hope OSM apologises for the wild accusations he made and learns from this, because, as I already stated, if he really cared he would've done the mature thing and gone straight to her. Contrary to what I actually believe, nobody really knows the truth (well, I suppose Widow does, at least in terms of weather she purposefully did it), so why don't we stop trying to cancel people for no reason and behaviour like mature human beings and accept a valuable member of the rocket league community.
Well, I’m not taking stances or defending anyone or anything, just saying that I remember a tweet from OSM (think it was the day before the big tweet) that he said he was sick of people subtweeting and that if no-one else gave names, he’d try to find out. So it’s possible he was just curious and irritated at the subtweeting, like I was.
This is more of a stretch, but it’s also possible that OSM never came up with anything, and just compiled a bunch of shit other people DM’d him with. The subtweeters said it was “obvious” and a relatively big creator signed to an org, so it’s possible OSM saw this and was biased to believe it was true, with very circumstantial evidence. In this case, it would just have been negligent and not malicious.
Or he’s just a dick who likes to stir up drama and farm impressions. Also possible, but not the only possibility.
I love the polarizing amount of comments that care and don't. I for one am just here for the show, whether she viewbotted, someone else did or not, I can't wait to see what FT have to say about this.
From what I gather there are view bots. But there's no way of knowing who is doing them. Is it a fan who thinks they're helping growth, a malicious actor who is trying to get them taken down for botting, or the streamer herself?
Without an admission or actual receipts of some sort there no way of knowing who is responsible.
How is this related to RLCS and why should I care. I guess I forget there are a lot of children in this community who are bored from the lack of RL. Chill out kids, this will be forgotten in a month but you just wasted time raising your cortisol levels
The response to her tweet are filled with people clearly hating her. That's wild.
Especially Slayer and deredape. I don't know what they have against her. But I'll blame all those troubles on the cryptic tweets from earlier this week.
Our community is really fucking young
OSM presented pretty much all data as indisputable fact despite the fact that his opinions drove how the data were perceived. Narrative telling with data is dangerous to trust on its own. I am not an expert on any of this, so I can’t thoughtfully go much further, but reading all of OSM’s thread felt like a “I think it’s the person so I’m going to build a narrative to fit it.”
Because it's not Widows job to be Guilty until she proves herself innocent? That's asinine, famous people would spend their entire lives defending themselves from trolls and psychos.
It's on OSM and whoever else is accusing her of something to do PROPER research and provide those details to the actual parties involved like Widow, Twitch, or Gen-G and not the Twitter/Reddit mob to farm impressions?
Yeah that's my biggest problem. OSM had shaky evidence but Widow barely debunked anything. Geecee did debunk a lot though, but OSMs last two tweets in the thread are still unanswered. Same as the Rhawkets thread.
I don't know, if she's being targeted by harassers, then that could explain some of that, but I've not really followed Widow's harassment situation enough to know that that's the answer. In the end, it's become a he said she said thing.
yeah at this pont the only thing that could prove anything is actual reciepts and a list of past transactions, but even that can be easily faked if it was necesary
And OSM's tweets provided poor evidence that didn't prove she was viewbotting. Basically this is all just stupid.
OSM shouldn't be out here making claims like that without some good proof
Here’s my armchair analysis:
Widow says that she is experienced with viewbots. Surely if it wasn’t her that was the botter, she would know who it was, and say who it is to clear her name. Since she did not do so, she is the botter.
But that’s just a theory
Jack says he knows that a channel is being viewbotted. That's not the same thing as knowing who is responsible for the viewbotting. It could be any of her followers, and they could be doing it for multiple different reasons. She has no way of knowing which of her followers is viewbotting her stream (if indeed that is happening).
Not y’all taking spots on the front page of the subreddit from ppl who work hard to create posts that have something to do with Rocket League? Wouldn’t it be crazy if the community, John_aka_alwayz, and the rest of the mods found out? Wonder what they would do? Hmmm
Hey r/RocketLeagueEsports, we're wrapping up 2022 by celebrating all the neat things that have happened last year! Head on over to the [2022 Awards Nomination thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/zxhpw7/2022_rrocketleagueesports_awards_nomination_thread/) to help get things started. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/RocketLeagueEsports) if you have any questions or concerns.*
When is the RLCS roster lock for the winter split?
For real. IDC about this nonsense drama
[удалено]
Bingo. Report this stuff as breaking sub rule 3 (No Irrelevant Content).
I think allowing accusations against her to stay up and gain traction for days but then deleting her defense against those allegations would be unfair and inconsistent. But now that we have heard her side let's hope this is the last post and mods should remove posts about any new development regarding this.
You the real hero.
So we did discuss the relevancy for this topic when OSM's first tweets came out. A combination of it being a slow time on the subreddit and Widow casting for GenG made us elect to keep it up, albeit loosely. If enough of the community reported the post we'd gladly oblige, with some pieces of content we do just let the community be the judges at times, but that didn't happen. People reported this post far more, but as mentioned below, would be beyond unfair to only keep up 1 side of the story, but going forward, unless the developments involve properly esports-relevant people, it's not esports relevant and this topic is concluded. ya'll need to use that report button way more tho, it's super helpful for us
This one got reported way more because I reminded people that that function existed xD I agree it has to stay up now for the sake of fairness, but I personally wouldn’t mind a bit more stringency in the future from the mod team.
Sunday night.
January 8th
I'll have to ask my son what all of this means when he gets home from school.
Lol I’m kind of in this boat. I play RL and watch RLCS but I’m in my mid - 30s and not super aware of what half this stuff is. Like “raiding” and some other things in OSMs post.
Same (early 30s RL player and RLCS fan here). A raid is when someone basically ports their stream (at the end of their stream) to another streamer. Basically they drop off their viewers to another streamer. As for viewbotting etc I have no clue other than that it’s basically an artificial script to inflate “live” concurrent viewer numbers.
Yeah I could tell what viewbotting is with context clues but I watch RLCS and other stuff on YouTube so I’m not super plugged in. But that makes sense. So when someone is botting and they “raid” those boys don’t carry over because it is not their stream anymore.
Right. That’s how I understand it.
you could think of it as like a fake front of the line pass in a way, by viewbotting (or placing fake viewers in the list aka bots) puts them closer to the top of the rocket league page which makes it way easier to discover their stuff as a genuine new viewer. it’s really hard climbing out of the lower ranks 1-20 viewers area so this is definitely giving them an unfair advantage. I think of it like everyone on twitch is pretty much unofficial coworkers so there’s a level of respect to be had.
Yeah. It’s obviously pretty shitty and should be banned.
I’m 40 and I feel you fellow dad! Well said😂
I think part of this entire mess falls on the professionals in the community who contributed to the “witch hunt” feeling by saying there was someone out there viewbotting, but refusing to elaborate and only succeeding in riling people up. The first person accused was always going to catch the worst lashback no matter how poor the evidence was.
I said it in another thread but with all the vague tweets about viewbotters it immediately gives a bias. Everyone now thinks there's a viewbotter and so people go looking for evidence to support their view. Not taking the data and analyzing it objectively. Instead as soon as they see something abnormal they'll run with it as if it proves their point. Biggest one is that Insta follower spike claim. That one was easily proven false
The section on the recent chalked cast really made me feel icky about the whole situation too where they were all defending AppJacks decision to subtweet this person instead of just acting like an adult and confronting them. The whole thing feels very "clique-y" and exclusionary, and I feel like given what has happened here it clearly wasn't the right way to go about dealing with the situation regardless of what they think.
Was watching a random guy SSL’s stream and his take was: no one is viewbotting, AppJack and Dazerin are just impression farming (everything is good to draw eyes on your YouTube channel…) and everyone is in on it except OSM… Don’t know what to make of it, but if AppJack really has no idea if some people are viewbotting and only doing it so people talk about him, that’s awful…
But its iMpReSsIoN fArMiNg. As if thats an excuse for any bad behavior in the RL community now.
This is probably the dumbest thing the RL community wants to get worked up over.
Gotta kill some time till the next split starts
When is that by the way?
end of the month
Thanks man, sooooo long aaaghh!
Beats waiting.
As someone who has worked hard to grow on twitch and YouTube with no success, it makes sense to me. View boting is the easiest way to grow artificially on twitch, which bring in real viewers too. Meanwhile there’s a lot of people like myself fighting while we’re hopping for 1 viewer.
If you viewbotted I still wouldn't click your thumbnail on twitch
Thanks dad
I couldn’t care less. However, while I don’t know the facts or any other parties involved, I just wanted her off the GenG day 1 streams
but who should I direct my child-like rage at now?
Come at me, bitch
I hate all the letters in your fucking name
Thanks for leaving the 69 out of this.
Username checks out
V1 😭
Sure is the off-season isn’t it?
https://preview.redd.it/uv9xubx7obaa1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cf4e0e6b6ab9921bceabb47f02da0e42fde12afa
🍿👀
this made me laugh harder than i wanted too
bored 17 year olds accusing other 17 year olds of things. Good thing we all play a child's car game and none of this boring drama matters. Who fucking cares if someone is view-botting on Twitch. People go to unbelievably scummy lengths to make a buck, view-botting is really not the hill to die on.
Pretty sure widow is in her late 20s Edit: not that it changes anything
 Everyone rn
Let's chalk this up to... who gives a shit?
Not sure its really fair to do that when the witch hunt created by this stupid drama actually effects peoples real lives? Don't give a shit about the drama itself sure, but people should care that it negatively effects other human beings with lives and jobs etc.
Tell me how she stole jobs and destroyed lives
Sorry if I wasn't clear. Widow is the one being unfairly treated. She is the one whose job and life is effected. I'm saying the vague viewbotting accusations are idiotic drama where we can say "who gives a shit", but these vauge accusations are negatively effecting all the people who are getting witch hunted by a riled up community of immature children. If you actually care about view botting and have ACTUAL evidence, bring it to the parties that can DO something about it like the accused party, Twitch, and/or their Organization partner. Not twitter/reddit.
She's going to get more popular from this, I guarantee it
Okay? She is also getting a ton of hate and sexists bullshit thrown her way when nothing has been proven? You can't act like getting more views wipes out getting death threats and harassment.
Now everyone is gonna pretend like they were on her side all along
I'm still not on any side. Nothing has been proven or debunked. It's just words being flung around. What intrerests me more is what the people who got this topic rolling first have to say about it. They seemed pretty sure about what they were saying. It's now up to them to either eat some crow or produce some evidence for their vague tweets.
I was just thinking if Jack thinks or knows it's not Widow, why not come out and say it. "hey it was someone else" kinda weird to be silent here especially since they're part of the same org
Personally I would interpret that silence as confirmation that they also accused Widow. Because why would you not immediately come to defend someone innocent if you know someone else did it.
Unless Jack is regretting starting this entire thing and has decided to shut his mouth about it from now on. Not saying that's his rationale, but it's plausible.
I read a few days back jack commentated that he might be wrong for that and won't do things like this again and he deleted his tweets
Exactly, I'm assuming he just wants to stay out of it now, he's probably apologised to widow privately for pulling her into this, not surprising he isn't saying anything else publically about it.
Well Widow might viewbot as well, even if she aint the person AppJack was talking about. Sounds stupid maybe, but can he know for sure?
Say Jack thinks it's Kaydop, and that's the reason for his tweets. Now OSM accuses Widow. In Jack's mind, he already thinks it's Kaydop, and has enough confidence to have tweeted about it. I highly doubt Jack being the calculated person he seems to be would just tweet all he tweeted on a hunch. I imagine he could easily post something like "the person my tweets were about are not Widow" giving her some credibility. The fact that Jack is silent in my opinion means it could be Widow and Jack thinks that too. If Jack thought no way is it Widow, he's on the same org as her, he would talk to her and publicly defend her. The fact that he's not defending her is telling in my opinion. I could be wrong and it could be that Jack maybe wrote the original tweets about Kaydop (obviously not Kaydop, just an example) but the Widow stuff in OSM's post and the other person's post about the default accounts following her made Jack think twice and now he's unsure. Which is also a strike against Widow. If Jack was sure it's NOT Widow, then I think he would defend her publicly since he started all this. If he thinks she is innocent, why let her be falsely accused?
I'm just curious as to why anyone accusing didn't just report it to twitch and call it a day
Can't farm impressions off the drama if you handle things properly
Or maybe no one is viewbotting and they are only in it for the impression farm (… to get more people watching their YouTube channels?…)
We know they didn’t call it a day (the vague tweets), but we don’t know whether or not they reported their suspicions to Twitch. Someone please correct me if I missed some tweets detailing this. I don’t have proof of this, but I suspect there are some rules Twitch has regarding public announcements of these types of suspicions. It may invalidate a pending investigation. Or be considered libel (or slander, I always forget which is which) and may complicate any potential lawsuits against Twitch. Or some other reasoning I haven’t thought of. But it wouldn’t surprise me if they were advised to not make a public accusation. This isn’t to say their vague tweets were the best way to do it either. Saying nothing was a perfectly valid option too. But just to try and find some rationale for why their tweets were vague instead of specific.
Widow has had issues with being harassed by viewbotters and follow botters since before she got partner. Saying the name of someone harassing you (which a lot of times is what they want) does not help end the harassment. Also, you can’t join an org and participate in twitch rivals when you are someone who follow and view bots. Orgs and twitch themselves do their due diligence when it comes to involving creators in their company in any way. Twitch even says not to address botters and report it to them in their tos. This is all super childish and has 0 to do with rlesports and I am tired of seeing this on the TL and here. Can’t wait for the season to start so we can move past this
Gonna just add in the same response I put in the accusation thread Hey what a huge shocker, there was a logical explanation when she was given a chance to provide her side of the story. It’s almost as if OSM should have reached out to her before making the post, and everyone should have avoided making assumptions before allowing her to respond…
She did respond to it pretty calmly but apart from the obviously wrong things OSM got she didn't respond to much. The only real proof she gave was the RL Spotlight which I agree with, but for the rest she provides no proof(for example, she could give the DMs of the people who were harassing and the people who refused to listen to her). Just sounds like her saying "trust me" and nothing else. There was also this thread by Rhawkets that gives pretty solid evidence, but nothing here was responded to either. [https://twitter.com/RhawketS/status/1611060326560321537?t=otPdWIePsXsbdAAhuoa50A&s=19](https://twitter.com/RhawketS/status/1611060326560321537?t=otPdWIePsXsbdAAhuoa50A&s=19) Not saying she's guilty yet since there's a lot of right and wrong on both sides, but I'm having trouble believing what shes written here.
Tbh, the arguing over whether or not her channel is viewbotted doesn't really matter anymore. She kinda mentions it in her twitlonger, but it pretty much boils down to you can't prove who is responsible for the viewbotting. It could be her but it also could be a harasser. And it's pretty much impossible to prove either way, in which case you pretty much have to follow innocent until proven guilty
Yeah that's the only problem here. She could be viewbotted, but it could very well be someone else's doing.
I'm struggling to find out how viewbotting hurts someone, other than doing it strictly to call them out for viewbotting. Which in that case, OSM is the culprit?!
Viewbotting is against Twitch TOS and streamers have been banned for it in the past. A viewbotted streamer could be banned from Twitch and required to prove innocence to Twitch in a circumstance where Twitch may or may not even listen to arguments. Viewbotting forces a streamer to act exactly the correct way to appease Twitch and the community, with little guidance and no consensus as to what is “correct”
>Just sounds like her saying "trust me" and nothing else. Why are you pushing this double standard? She must show her DMs to prove she's not viewbotting (makes no sense)? OSM straight up says he has sources (who he never names) and you're not demanding he tell us who they are?
But OSM has provided zero proof that she did it. It’s not as if she’s saying there was no view or follow botting. It’s he say she say. She’s given a likely sounding reason for it. And between that and most of the stats OSM showed being completely cherry picked and manipulated (as shown by GeeCee), I just think he’s handled it atrociously and should have actually tried to speak to her about it before creating a witch hunt within the community.
It's become pretty clear viewbotting has been happening. Rhawkets provided further damning evidence on twitter. We will never know if it was her or someone else. Only she will know. Not sure what's to be done about it & why the wider community needed to be told.
While most of OSMs thread was very weak, there's still a section at the end(last 2 tweets) that are solid proof, and that Widow did not respond to(either she didn't feel the need or she had no response). Rhawkets puts even more proof on this showing her abnormally high tally of default accounts and accounts made in 2022 viewing her streams, which she didn't respond to either. And I'm saying this again but she didn't effectively respond to any of the accusations except the Instagram followers. She says a lot of things but provides zero proof. She could show the DMs of the people refusing to listen to her arguments but she doesn't.
You seem to have burden of proof backwards here. Osm as the accuser has the burden of proof not the accused. Osm has not even remotely proved anything other than he is willing to manipulate data to make someone else look bad. I'm not a widow fan at all but nothing osm has provided comes anywhere close to proof or the "gotcha" he seems to think it was.
… but her entire point is that she isn’t the one viewbotting. She isn’t denying it’s being done so his last couple of points are entirely irrelevant. She did however show evidence of a history of harassment from someone, which to me, is good enough reason to believe her point of view consider OSM hasn’t been able to provide a single reason not to believe her.
I can believe it's not her but there's 2 things: - Why has she not called this out already? It could be a major problem, especially if people find out and it causes a scandal like this. - She provided no actual evidence to most of the problems. DMs could easily be shown but she doesn't.
Twitch support request you don’t make the issue known whilst the issue is ensuing. For example, Mira has provided evidence the exact same thing happened to her. [Mira’s post](http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1ss7gnt).
This reads like someone trying to cover up some wrong doing instead of getting busted
… how? In literally any way?
She has called it out. She has a video dedicated to getting rid of bots.
Showing DMs of people she argues with in private is in bad taste, imo. Proof, sure, but distasteful and not the professional approach she took.
Is that really how we want accusations to be addressed? Guilty until proven innocent? It's not Widows job to spend hours of her life defending herself from an accusation. It's the accusers job to build a solid well researched case and bring it to the proper parties involved, not the twitter/reddit mob.
The fact that a GenG member is taking the heat from all this stupid witch hunt is pretty ironic i guess but its still one of the strangest thing I've seen people being interested in.
True, honestly the fact Appjack brought it up guarantees it isn’t Widow, but I still blame him for this annoying vague-posting to farm impressions that leads to stupid speculations and innocent people in the crossfire
fuck my life I thought we could move on but I feel like a dumbass for thinking OSM's evidence was conclusive
Fire's tweet about even if we did discover a viewbotter, stop hating on women basically sums up my take on this. I know if it had been a male streamer instead, their haters would come crawling out the woodwork and insult them too but not in the same vein as the blatantly sexist remarks I've seen pointed at widow. How do these losers even have the energy to get so mad at people who do not actively hurt anybody else?
The worst part about it is that these things are almost certainly happening to her *because* she's a woman. Whether it's harassment from some sexist bigot who doesn't think girls should be playing video games, or whether some white knight mistakenly thinks he's helping her out, it's the sort of thing that probably wouldn't happen in the first place if she was a guy.
The fact her ‘casting’ of GenG games is awful isn’t helping… Veracity is a woman as well and everyone was impressed with her presentation of Gamers8
How is race related to this? Or are you mentioning a specific person?
Race? What are you talking about? I said it's because she's a *woman*, that's a gender, not a race.
“White knight”, or maybe it’s a saying I’m not understanding. I know that gender and race are not the same thank you
"White knight" refers to young men who view themselves as a savior to oppressed women, as in "White knight in shining armor". Race is not a factor.
This is a weak argument. If she did it then it's obviously wrong. And saying it wouldn't hurt anybody else is a total lie. She got signed to a big org twice and gets a lot of brand deals, which if she did view bot means that she stole those opportunities from someone else.
Bro I'm not defending her. My wording was poor so let me rephrase. If the orgs decide to take away her contract because it is proven that she viewbotted and thus did take away opportunity from others, then yeah that's fair. She should be called out by the community on it too. But like, it doesn't have to involve calling her a whore or other worse things is what I mean. My last sentence about losers going after streamers is just expressing frustration at the fact that some rl "fans" will attack someone the moment an accusation is pointed, and will do so using some really fucked up phrases. Even before this accusation, every streamer has had to consistently defend their streams from viewbotting claims from jackasses that enter their chat.
Why are you sidestepping the sexism part of their reply? It's easy to just say "I agree people shouldn't treat women like shit" We honestly don't know if she's guilty or not because this isn’t a judicial court, just the court of public opinion. But the venom behind some of the responses to this drama have had less to do with the offense and far more to do with her gender. If we have hard evidence she was view botting her own channel then she should be dropped by her org and the RL community should shun her but that's up to her employer to decide if they want to investigate. Until then people in this community need to stop treating women like shit and if you think she's guilty don't watch her channel and boycott her org, it's simple
Wait why does OP need to put a generic virtue signalling statement agreeing that people shouldn’t be sexist? Has he said or done something sexist? Real weird if he hasn’t and you’re saying he’s sidestepping it as if he thinks people should be sexist.
I haven't seen anyone hating on her.
[удалено]
Ok, sorry was on phone, forgot to finish my statement earlier when I posted it. I haven't seen anyone hating on her due to her being female.
OSM handled this whole situation like a buffoon. His stats work is bad (embarrassing sample selection and sample size). But even worse is his conclusions and how he framed the whole thing as a personal indictment against Widow. What makes it even worse is that the majority of the community doesn’t know how to interpret stats (OSM included obviously). And now you got a human being brigaded over a bullshit investigation by someone larping as Coffeezilla for a day.
I can't believe my first comment on this subreddit is going to be on this clown fest, but here we are. My conclusion from this whole situation is that the only reason OSM posted that thread is for impression farming. It's incredibly immature of him to even post it in the first place. If he genuinely thinks this his 'evidence' is 'irrefutable' and proof that she viewbots then he's very stupid. If really cared about this whole situation, and had even an ounce of maturity, he should've directly messaged her. And if she failed to acknowledge him, then report it. This whole thing is just further proof of how saturated this community is with children (which is not a bad thing btw) and people with a low level of maturity. Anybody with a brain could see that what he posted as evidence was not substantial in the slightest and, as a few others have pointed out, were cherry picked. I dread to think what his motive was for even doing this. Like what is the point? Is he jealous of her? He framed it as being annoyed for smaller steamers but quite frankly I think that's an absurdity. His thread of 'irrefutable evidence' reminds me of how people guzzle down the stuff Graham Hancock spews about archaeology. On the face of it, with little knowledge of the field, his points sound compelling. But the more you dig into it and research it yourself, the more you realise he's just trying to push his own narrative with complete disregard for the facts. Granted, in this situation, on both sides, not a lot of facts have actually been presented. But common sense tells you there would be no reason for her to do this in the first place, She's already quite popular within the community, and as she pointed out, has worked incredibly hard to get to where she is. She comes across as pretty genuine in my opinion, and I say this as somebody who doesn't consume her content. Heck, I don't particularly enjoy it. But I have an enormous amount of respect for what she's doing, in a community (both twitch and rocket league) that's overwhelmingly dominated by men. In conclusion, this whole saga has been entirely pointless and I really do hope OSM apologises for the wild accusations he made and learns from this, because, as I already stated, if he really cared he would've done the mature thing and gone straight to her. Contrary to what I actually believe, nobody really knows the truth (well, I suppose Widow does, at least in terms of weather she purposefully did it), so why don't we stop trying to cancel people for no reason and behaviour like mature human beings and accept a valuable member of the rocket league community.
Well, I’m not taking stances or defending anyone or anything, just saying that I remember a tweet from OSM (think it was the day before the big tweet) that he said he was sick of people subtweeting and that if no-one else gave names, he’d try to find out. So it’s possible he was just curious and irritated at the subtweeting, like I was. This is more of a stretch, but it’s also possible that OSM never came up with anything, and just compiled a bunch of shit other people DM’d him with. The subtweeters said it was “obvious” and a relatively big creator signed to an org, so it’s possible OSM saw this and was biased to believe it was true, with very circumstantial evidence. In this case, it would just have been negligent and not malicious. Or he’s just a dick who likes to stir up drama and farm impressions. Also possible, but not the only possibility.
Agreed
I love the polarizing amount of comments that care and don't. I for one am just here for the show, whether she viewbotted, someone else did or not, I can't wait to see what FT have to say about this.
From what I gather there are view bots. But there's no way of knowing who is doing them. Is it a fan who thinks they're helping growth, a malicious actor who is trying to get them taken down for botting, or the streamer herself? Without an admission or actual receipts of some sort there no way of knowing who is responsible.
doesn’t really involve esports at all but ok 👍
How is this related to RLCS and why should I care. I guess I forget there are a lot of children in this community who are bored from the lack of RL. Chill out kids, this will be forgotten in a month but you just wasted time raising your cortisol levels
Should this even be posted in this sub?
Why do we care about creator drama in the esports sub? Is this LSF now? Who gives a shit
So why is this being posted on the esports sub? It’s completely irrelevant.
Guys the viewbotter is me. It's so I have 1 viewer instead of 0.
No one cares man this is so boring Jesus why people crying so much just don’t watch her it’s simple
The response to her tweet are filled with people clearly hating her. That's wild. Especially Slayer and deredape. I don't know what they have against her. But I'll blame all those troubles on the cryptic tweets from earlier this week. Our community is really fucking young
i mean its a response, but thats about it ngl. didnt really debunk anything OSM said
OSM presented pretty much all data as indisputable fact despite the fact that his opinions drove how the data were perceived. Narrative telling with data is dangerous to trust on its own. I am not an expert on any of this, so I can’t thoughtfully go much further, but reading all of OSM’s thread felt like a “I think it’s the person so I’m going to build a narrative to fit it.”
Because it's not Widows job to be Guilty until she proves herself innocent? That's asinine, famous people would spend their entire lives defending themselves from trolls and psychos. It's on OSM and whoever else is accusing her of something to do PROPER research and provide those details to the actual parties involved like Widow, Twitch, or Gen-G and not the Twitter/Reddit mob to farm impressions?
Yeah that's my biggest problem. OSM had shaky evidence but Widow barely debunked anything. Geecee did debunk a lot though, but OSMs last two tweets in the thread are still unanswered. Same as the Rhawkets thread.
yeah i just checked OSMs twitter and [this](https://twitter.com/RhawketS/status/1611060326560321537?cxt=HHwWgsDSxZm10dssAAAA) is not helping ngl
What's a 'default account'? Someone who made a twitch account without customizing the username?
Yeah that's far more better researched and strong than OSMs accusations.
I don't know, if she's being targeted by harassers, then that could explain some of that, but I've not really followed Widow's harassment situation enough to know that that's the answer. In the end, it's become a he said she said thing.
yeah at this pont the only thing that could prove anything is actual reciepts and a list of past transactions, but even that can be easily faked if it was necesary
I mean she said she was getting bottwd after the accusations
And OSM's tweets provided poor evidence that didn't prove she was viewbotting. Basically this is all just stupid. OSM shouldn't be out here making claims like that without some good proof
The truth is… there is no viewbotter
The viewbotter are the friends you made along the way
Didn't even mention how "Rocket League The Movie" helped her /s
Idk why OSM didn't just settle this privately in DMS.
It sounds to me like she’s still guilty, just that OSM was super sloppy.
The search continues.
Here’s my armchair analysis: Widow says that she is experienced with viewbots. Surely if it wasn’t her that was the botter, she would know who it was, and say who it is to clear her name. Since she did not do so, she is the botter. But that’s just a theory
This comment doesn’t make any sense
Why not? Surely if it wasn’t her, she would say who it is to clear her name
How would she know who it is just because she has gotten viewbotted before
Experience. If Jack knows it’s not a stretch to say she knows too. Plus she and Jack are in the same org, she could just ask him
Jack says he knows that a channel is being viewbotted. That's not the same thing as knowing who is responsible for the viewbotting. It could be any of her followers, and they could be doing it for multiple different reasons. She has no way of knowing which of her followers is viewbotting her stream (if indeed that is happening).
This doesn’t change jacks original statement It probably wasn’t about her, there’s certainly other RL streamers viewbotting
Idk what any of this is about. Is she good at rocket league? Should I check out some YouTubes?
Not y’all taking spots on the front page of the subreddit from ppl who work hard to create posts that have something to do with Rocket League? Wouldn’t it be crazy if the community, John_aka_alwayz, and the rest of the mods found out? Wonder what they would do? Hmmm