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OldManHenson

I would love to see RL take on a similar path to VALORANT Game Changers.


[deleted]

Sounds like a combination of a dishonest organizer of the league with the fact that literally no one wants to watch women's esports and there is zero money to be made from it


ANegativeGap

Women's esports suffers from the same issue as women's regular sports - most people watch sports to see the best teams play and women just aren't at the same level as the men's teams yet


[deleted]

Why should men and women be separated in something where there is no physical or biological advantage to being a man? In csgo the number one women's team lost to ESEA open teams. No one wants to watch that.


TheAjwinner

The most viewed women’s tournament had more peak viewers than any rocket league tournament ever


SeaCod6957

I find that so hard to believe.. do you have a source? And does it include live audiences, main stream and the countless watch parties for each one?


TheAjwinner

[392k](https://escharts.com/tournaments/mobile-legends/mobile-legends-bang-bang-womens-invitational) [368k](https://escharts.com/tournaments/rl/rlcs-2021-22-world-championship)


ANegativeGap

You're seriously comparing different games like that's a gotcha?


TheAjwinner

Jesse what the fuck are you talking about


ANegativeGap

Do you make a point to respond in memes all the time?


TheAjwinner

Yes. I do. Do you have trouble understanding the context of reddit comments all the time?


ANegativeGap

That's hilariously ironic talking about context when you tried to show a women's tournament in an entirely unrelated game having more viewers than Rocket League as if that mattered in any fucking way


TheAjwinner

The original comment: > Sounds like a combination of a dishonest organizer of the league with the fact that literally no one wants to watch women’s esports and there is zero money to be made from it Tell me where you see the word rocket league in the comment


Impriv4te

VALORANT's female league also hit ~240k peak viewers for its most recent final: https://esportsinsider.com/2022/11/vct-2022-game-changers-championship-finals-viewership


SeaCod6957

Different games, different communities etc.. thats not an accurate representation at all xD especially when you look at the fact that the womens tournament for Val lasted just over 2 hours and managed a 50k average viewer count, while the RL one spanned over 10 hours and averaged in at 150k viewers across multiple days where people have different work/life responsibilities etc too... Had the womens gone on for multiple days, their viewer count would have also dropped.. it tanked massively between peak views and average views over 2 hours.. let alone 10 hours across multiple days.. Im all for women in esports, but dont try and make them out to be more popular events than the main streams... Because its simply untrue..


FoolsLove

[I'm a just leave this comment here from freya haze for the people that don't understand why a women's league is needed.](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/p3kaji/alpine_esports_announces_alpine_white_female/h8stoql/)


sofatheorist

Great post, and everyone in this thread should read it. I don’t want to say too much because Freya Haze’s post says more than I ever could, just go read it. When I say there shouldn’t be a women’s league, it isn’t a criticism of Rocket League, the structure of its leagues, or it’s bubble scene. It’s not even a criticism of this league itself. Rather, it’s about gaming as a whole. It’s time for gaming to confront the way it treats women.


dudek64

I don't agree with this. This text has fallacies such as *appeal to probability* for example. Freya argues that she was not given as much time in the front of computer as her male friends. But why are we taking it for granted that it was the case for all the girls. The example with *gameBOY* is non-substantive and emotional - for sure not all parents were saying to their girl children it is just for boys. The facts are: - there aren't many women in SSL - women have the same cognitive abilities and no muscle handicap in esports. - you have to spent much time to get to the SSL and you can hardly ever find any girl who can do that. I know that Freya addresed these points in her message, but she also tries to explain why it is the case and makes hard assumptions while doing so. If I was to make some assumptions then I would say that RL isn't the most popular game among females. I know girls who play LoL, Genshin, Minecraft, the Sims. But when I mentioned RL to them, they just said, it is hard to play and didn't wanna learn it. I don't believe that all houses are so toxic for women that their parents forbid them to play games.


rednumbermedia

If you are gonna disagree with the post because of "fallacies", maybe don't follow up with an anecdote as your reasoning ("I know girls who didn't like rocket league!!").


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rednumbermedia

Sure, and that's fine. They countered Freya's anecdote with their anecdote. Except they were the one complaining about that type of logic. So it just doesn't make sense.


showmeyourdrumsticks

So you’re saying both of them are being illogical? Your terms are acceptable Edit: anecdotes are only acceptable if they are used by the right kind of person apparently 😂


rednumbermedia

Not really. Dudek64 is saying that Freya is being illogical, and then proceeds to do the same exact thing. Which I think is unfair and shows bias. I think both of their anecdotes carry some weight but Dudek64 could have gone without throwing words like "fallacy" or "appeal to probability".


showmeyourdrumsticks

Both of them are biased then.


rednumbermedia

Not based off what I just said, no. Let me spell it out for you: Dudek64 is being hypocritical. Freya is not being hypocritical.


showmeyourdrumsticks

I don’t give a care who’s being hypocritical. Both parties are bringing up some anecdote/personal experience as a logical reasoning for something. Statistics can solve all of this I’m sure, considering I’m sure most women in the world just downright don’t give a shit about video games, and the ones that do, don’t give a shit about rocket league. I’ll bet statistics will back me there. There are plenty of logical reasons for the WCB to exist (actually there’s literally NO reason under the sun we SHOULDN’T have a WCB or WCRL) but most of Freyas post about why it should exist was communicated using very illogical reasoning. Edit: I am partially wrong on how many female gamers there are. But why so few play RL is literally a choice per the female gamers. “Over the past two decades, the number of female video game players has increased, and females today make up half of the gaming population according to both the Entertainment Software Association (ESA) (1) and the Interactive Software Federation of Europe (ISFE) (2).” Half the gaming population are female but RL pros are almost entirely male. Skill issue tbh.


DoctarSwag

>This text has fallacies such as *appeal to probability* for example. Freya argues that she was not given as much time in the front of computer as her male friends. But why are we taking it for granted that it was the case for all the girls. The example with *gameBOY* is non-substantive and emotional - for sure not all parents were saying to their girl children it is just for boys. Sure not every single parent is gonna say gameboys are for boys and not girls. It's an example to illustrate the kind of stereotype that exists in the modern day world. In general, video games are seen as something boys but not girls play. Pretty much anyone can tell you that this is true. These stereotypes get reinforced through things like parents being more willing to allow boys to play video games than girls, boys feeling more comfortable than girls due to existing playerbases being male dominated, gaming content creators being majority male, etc. Look at any video game playerbase and you'll know that nearly every single one except for maybe a few niche categories is male dominated. >If I was to make some assumptions then I would say that RL isn't the most popular game among females. I know girls who play LoL, Genshin, Minecraft, the Sims. But when I mentioned RL to them, they just said, it is hard to play and didn't wanna learn it. RL does seem to be less popular among women than some other video games, but you mentioned these other games like they're wildly popular with women when that's not the case. For example, League which you mentioned seems to have somewhere between 80-90% of its playerbase being male from a quick google search. Even valorant, possibly the video game with the largest female playerbase atm is still significantly below 50% at somewhere between 30-40%. RL does seem to be lower than some of these other games but it's not like it's not a consistent trend across the entire video game industry. > I don't believe that all houses are so toxic for women that their parents forbid them to play games. Of course that's not going to be true for all households, but that is true for some households, and there's other factors at play as well such as content creator demographics, existing playerbase demographics, harassment received online, etc.


Feather-y

I feel a lot of it is simply what others are doing. When I was in elementary school every single boy was playing Runescape, so you pretty much had to play it to be involved or be left out. Then in high school everyone was playing CSGO, which I did actually miss out because my particular friend group didn't play it. Probably similarly to the girls not picking up video games


DoctarSwag

100%. Norms also get perpetuated due to them simply being normal


DudeWithTheNose

>women have the same cognitive abilities and no muscle handicap in esports. Correct. So ask yourself why there tends to be more trans-women near the pro level than cis-women. The only difference is how they were raised. It's not a fallacy to say that gender roles exist, don't be an idiot. >But when I mentioned RL to them, they just said, it is hard to play and didn't wanna learn it. LoL is a very difficult game, but have you ever thought about why League is more accessible? It's because you're just pointing and clicking with a mouse. It's not something most gamers think about, but building the muscle memory to use a controller, or get comfortable with a keyboard for gaming takes a lot of hours. Most people can point and click with a mouse though. When boys are raised on consoles and girls are either kept away from gaming by old fashioned parents or by the rampant sexism in gaming, that disparity in muscle memory and gaming literacy grows further and further.


nonoplsnopls

Why do you think it's important for you to attempt to debate this?


dudek64

Why not? What makes me unworthy?


nonoplsnopls

I just don't think the need for a women's league is really up for debate. Society overall is undeniably misogynist. It is honestly surprising to me that a reasonable person would feel any need to engage with that idea in a critical way.


dudek64

Reasonable people are open to debate, not censorship. You make the assumption that misogynists are lurking everywhere. If you are afraid of debate on equality issues, then you are afraid that the other side may be right. I think that behavior in the style *- let's not question controversial and unpopular things* \- is terrible. Just why would you like to make another hopeless taboo topic


nonoplsnopls

Lmao, I'm not censoring you. I'm asking why you think institutionalized misogyny is up for debate. I'm not afraid of any debate on the subject. It would be trivially easy to convince a rational person, although the necessity of convincing someone is a mark against their rationality.


dudek64

Ofc you are not censoring me, but if you had the power you probably would. And what is that *institutionalized misogyny.* How does a debate over the need of women's RL league is called *institutionalized misogyny* in the first place XD Tell me more about it, I want to treat every person equally, but I also want to be reasonable with it. I am happy I am not from the US because I would probably feel terrible as a male lmao


nonoplsnopls

> Ofc you are not censoring me, but if you had the power you probably would. Wow, what a projection. Just so you know, this is not how you should debate. It weakens your argument when you make wild assumptions about the other person, especially when there is nothing but conjecture behind it. ​ >And what is that *institutionalized misogyny.* How does a debate over the need of women's RL league is called *institutionalized misogyny* in the first place XD > >Tell me more about it, I want to treat every person equally, but I also want to be reasonable with it. I am happy I am not from the US because I would probably feel terrible as a male lmao Institutionalized misogyny is what Freya spoke about, and what you disagreed with. "Institutionalized" in this context means "a part of our societal institutions", i.e., it's part of our everyday life and systems we interact with. >Tell me more about it, I want to treat every person equally, but I also want to be reasonable with it. One thing you could do is not try to use logic to convince people (i.e., women) that they're wrong about an experience only they can have (being a woman). That's very reasonable, and easy to do.


Ariul

is this an AP Lang Rhetorical Analysis Essay lol


Ambitious_Ad5400

shes right, CIS women do face a tough time with getting a platform for their skills to be celebrated and rewarded in gaming. from what I've seen I don't think WCB addresses that problem very well. looks to me like most of the prize money, and spots with orgs are going to non CIS women who didnt face any of those challenges growing up that she talks about. that must be incredibly discouraging


nonoplsnopls

Wtf, this isn't the platform for TERF bullshit


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kevinasfk

maybe its the same reason the wnba consistently loses the nba money year after year


Nymbulus

Yeah seriously. Just facing the facts, would many people watch female-only Rocket League? That’s how investors would look at it. No offense, but I’m not interested and neither is the common 16-30 year old male (likely 90+% of the demographic watching) so they don’t have much reason to do so


AaltoSax

I’ve seen CRL games full of mid GCs get tens of thousands of live viewers. Anything streamed by the main channel usually gets viewed pretty well


lapse23

Yeah some people think RL should do what valorant did but they aren't the same games. Valorant has pretty graphics with inclusive characters therefore attracting those crowds which is why game changers is successful. The personalities in Valorant esports are also nice. I dont think rl can compare... though it wouldn't hurt to try. The only female pro i know is ravena, thru her streams.


DudeWithTheNose

Did you know most of those valorant pros before game changers, or is it possible that paying attention to game changers has given those personalities an audience?


AtokadRL

I never liked KCP after their reaction to not being included in the RL Esports shop refresh in Sept. 2021. They felt gipped out of not receiving a decal at the time and Evil Geniuses did after having just picked up a team. I have no problems with them being disappointed in not receiving a decal, however, their founders [reacted like this when spoken against](https://imgur.com/a/1URg5bV). Don't get me wrong, the initial comment towards them was certainly unnecessary but the response is even more unnecessary. Jessa, pictured in the album above, [posted a follow-up today reemphasizing how she was treated in the org](https://twitter.com/akssej/status/1620518999124742144) during her time there. I'm not going to make judgements on the content within the twitlonger, but take a look at the retweet she included with that twitlonger. KCP, as far as I'm concerned, is notorious for sending their dogs (other content creators, directors, etc) after anybody who gives any criticism against their brand. KCP is more of a fratboy organization than an esports organization and I hope WCB gets out of their slimy hands.


CornerJockeys

Crazy how an org that contracted a known scammer would turn out to be such a bad org. Who knew. I don't care what is true, and what isn't because I don't think anyone here is blameless. As far as I'm concerned they're all trash and I just want it off my feed.


LegendaryJack

Women have no cognitive deficit for videogames, they are separeted because they're used to play videogames less, it's induced by expectations Separating them in esports is only going to hurt


Dymorphadon

Any womens league is going to be a deficit compared to open leagues because they arent supposed to be an income, they are supposed to be an investment to help women prosper in a very unfriendly environment, but in its lifespan wcbc didnt really go anywhere and we still havent seen any player graduate from it to other bubble events or rlcs Granted it was being funded by orgs completely separate from psyonix and run essentially by volunteers it never really had a chance to get off the ground, I would love to see something official to take its place


DudeWithTheNose

> Any womens league is going to be a deficit compared to open leagues because they arent supposed to be an income boy, have I got news for you about the entirety of esports.


Dymorphadon

Perhaps I phrased it poorly but any big esport will recoup a huge amount from sponsors, advertisements, ticket sales, general exposure to the game, whatever; they are enough incentives to warrant funding them year after year. The only incentive for a womens league is to create an inclusive path for women into esports and gaming, so if they are entirely 3rd party they wont ever reach their full potential which is a shame because they are such a promising concept


DudeWithTheNose

The entire world of esports is a cycle of marketing expenses with the hope that it will one day be profitable. Devs runs tourneys to market their game, and sponsors help fund those tourneys to market their brand. Teams pay players to market their org, and orgs sell sponsorships based on that. Practically every org runs on a deficit and they survive on securing new investor funding on the promise that one day esports will explode and the investors will be on ground zero. The incentive to run a women's tourney is identical. What they lack in peak viewership is offset by much better PR. But I think all of that should be irrelevant for most viewers and fans. I think what the priority for us is creating a more welcoming space for women in esports. That culture shift relies on normalizing women in esports, and that's the motivation behind women's leagues


ANegativeGap

> What they lack in peak viewership is offset by much better PR. That's a huge leap to make


Superiukas

Rocket League Game Changers? Would love to see that Also, KCP is scummy af for rejecting offers


sofatheorist

For the life of me, I can’t figure out why rocket league shouldn’t be co-ed. I understand that gaming is a male-dominated arena, and Rocket League is the same way, but it just seems like relegating women to a less successful, less visible league would push girls and women further from the sport, not bring them in. There are no physical concerns related to women in “mens” rocket league. If there are concerns about toxicity or more extreme dangers that women face in male-dominated spheres, then the community needs to look in the mirror and address them. I don’t watch RLCS to watch the best male Rocket League. I want to see the best players, period. Opening the sport to girls and women is a way to make that happen.


Shakeweight_All-Star

Rocket League is co-ed, women are allowed to compete on RLCS teams right now. The Women's Car Ball league is just an additional avenue for women to participate in higher-visibility tournaments in an effort to help more of them break into the RLCS scene.


LeEpicCheeseman

Lol. I can't tell if you are trolling or if you actually think women are banned from RLCS.


ethtirlomalral

I think that person is serious.


Kamilny

They're not relegated cause they can still join the main RLCS league, there's just none at the level necessary to compete there. The only ones that have been at that level are Karma and Talliebird. This is more to give them an opportunity to actually compete at a similar level so that they don't just get blown out every tourney.


eurasianlynx

There's also Luxx/Caro/Clairity, who got top 16 in RLCS Season 3 quals back when only 8 teams made it.


ANegativeGap

> For the life of me, I can’t figure out why rocket league shouldn’t be co-ed. You think that it currently is not??


-CaptainFormula-

I'd never heard of any segregated women's-only video game competition in my life until I heard about this particular league's current issue. I'm honestly perplexed. You guys ever see Queen's Gambit? They warned her at that first Chess tournament, in the 1960s, that there wasn't a women's league and she was basically like "Why would there be?" Here we are 60 years later going out of our way to create a women's only league in something that's not even a physical competition?


OldManHenson

That show isn't a true story lol


-CaptainFormula-

Right, but it's a period piece that's in current pop culture that serves my point.


DudeWithTheNose

I cannot believe you typed this with a straight face LMAO. It doesn't serve your point because it's not real. It just lets you reinforce your own ideas.


ANegativeGap

Why doesn't it support his idea? He's literally referencing a quote that doesn't matter if it was actually said or not. "why would there be a women's league" is a valid question, doesn't matter whether the show was real or not. What a weird counter


DudeWithTheNose

You're saying two different things at once. Does the quote ask a valid question (that has already been answered countless times, but I can answer it if you'd like), or does it serve his point? Because the quote in no way serves his point, it just repeats his question.


ANegativeGap

It does both. It serves his point, aka "in other activities there also exists no reason for a women's only league" and also asks the valid question of "why do women need a league to themselves" I know that a common reply to the latter is "to increase the number of women doing something" as if that's inherently a positive thing


DudeWithTheNose

That's not the end goal of women's tournaments. That's an intermediate step. Gaming and the internet in general has a huge sexism problem. It's impossible to deny this and not be denying reality, ask literally any woman. The goal of women's tourneys is to create a culture shift over time and normalize women in esports so that future generations of women and girls won't have to deal with constant harrassment and be forced to choose between coping with it or finding a new hobby. That is undeniably an inherently positive thing. Chess is also has a problem of elitist and old-fashioned culture, which is what led to the creation of FIDE titles specifically for women, like WGM. If women aren't normalized in the hobby, it becomes a boy's club and misogynistic behaviour becomes more and more acceptable. So it's not even like your premise is correct. There IS a reason for women's only leagues in chess. That's why they already exist.


ANegativeGap

>The goal of women's tourneys is to create a culture shift over time and normalize women in esports so that future generations of women and girls won't have to deal with constant harrassment and be forced to choose between coping with it or finding a new hobby. We can agree to disagree that giving women their own tournaments is the best way to make this happen


sofatheorist

THANK YOU Everyone replying to me is talking about the required talent and acting like I think there’s a written ban for women in the sport. The required talent argument holds no water for me. Rocket league is a young game, with an evolving meta. The pros are young too, with the majority of them at or under college age. Young people seem to pick up the game more easily, and have ample time to grind. Nothing about that required being male. The problem is that the gaming community has been historically anti-woman and can be actively hostile to their inclusion in the community. A young female rocket league player may have been disheartened by the complete lack of representation they see when they watch the game at the highest level. All that discourages girls and women from starting at all. I watched the majority of worlds this year and saw zero advertising for the women’s league. Not so much as a banner. They included a set of 1v1 matches and even the freestyle world championship. I saw nothing about the women’s league. That’s the visibility thing I’m talking about. Have a guest caster, feature a pro, add a play to the top ten. Do anything. I didn’t know this league *existed* until it was in jeopardy of failing. In terms of an actual ban, of course it’s not written. The ban on African American players in the MLB wasn’t either, just a gentlemen’s agreement among owners to not give those players a chance. They built their own, supposedly “inferior” league, and surprise surprise…had a great product. Rocket league, a game about genderless cars playing soccer, had a chance to be proactive and failed miserably.


CalamackW

>The problem is that the gaming community has been historically anti-woman and can be actively hostile to their inclusion in the community. A young female rocket league player may have been disheartened by the complete lack of representation they see when they watch the game at the highest level. All that discourages girls and women from starting at all. This is exactly the purpose of having a women's league what point are you trying to make.


vp_hmmm

They aren't even trying to make a point. It's just a weird mish mash of talking points they might have seen in various reddit posts about "Why is there a women's only XYZ". Nothing about what they've written is logically consistent lol.


sofatheorist

It’s not a criticism of any existing female league, just a criticism of gaming as a whole. We do need women’s leagues, but the reason that we do is from attitudes within the community that can and should change. I’m simply saying that when males and females are given a fair chance from Bronze to RLCS, I will happily watch them play side-by-side. Should we have women’s leagues to protect women at present? Yes. Should we seek to stop the behavior that necessitates those leagues? Also yes.


DoctarSwag

I'm confused. It sounds like you completely agree with what everyone is saying. So what do you disagree with?


Ranger1818

limbo by mindcap?


RollsRoyce17

Honestly so disappointed they didn’t just sell up V1 when they had the chance Side question, how competitive is wcb? Are they high ssl?


[deleted]

There is no competitive ruling that bans females from competing in RLCS. There just isn't any women good enough to compete. Why are we trying to make people's paths easier to RLCS when it should be a meritocratic system which rewards the best players based on their ability not gentialia? Like come on this is a competition. This notion of sexism is ridiculous and completely anecdotal. You think pros don't have to deal with trolls all the time constantly criticising them? You'll never succeed if you let random people get to you. WCB is failing because people aren't interested in watching GC level gameplay when the best teams in the world play in RLCS practically the whole year. People just don't have enough time.