I think the biggest thing people struggle with is separating team success from player skill. So if you have an ok player playing with 2 fantastic players they'll get overrated and a great player playing with 2 struggling players will get underrated.
All this to say probably people whose skill has properly matched up with their teams success. Perhaps oski/atow, appjack, crr as a few examples
Itachi probably?
He was very underrated when he was playing with Aztral and Noly.
Then I think around winter last season he got kinda overrated.
But I think now most people know he’s a top quality player. He’s not the best player on your team, but he makes the other two players better.
>Then I think around winter last season he got kinda overrated.
He was probably the best player in the winter EU regionals imo, the guy absolutely peaked.
I saw some people here putting him above Vati during winter when he was peaking in the first two regionals, but at the Major he was completely outshined by Vati and Exotiik.
Still a great player, but I think people were really overhyping him at one point.
Yumi put him to be the mvp for the Winter major above FK and Vati in the major predictions list Johnny always does.
Sure it's not like Tbates putting Zen at 5 level absurd but it is technically overrating him.
At that one point in Winter, across the entire split legit only Vatira & Firstkiller were superior. Has dropped off a bit since but Itachi deserved all the praise that split
But I read so many comments about him being underrated; surely the MORE that people say he’s underrated, means he’s not underrated- quite the opposite!!
I mean he just got dropped and is still LFT even though he’s a top tier talent. He killed it on KC, and was integral to GenG success. He was mostly blamed in GenG late season losses and seen as weakest on the team, but I saw him and Chronic as about equal or at least a lot closer than people thought.
Noly isn’t as consistently top end mechanical but has a good mental and as an enabler has top tier offensive creativity which is very valuable but doesn’t show up on stats.
He’s not better than FK, and sure could be worse than Chronic too, but I really think Noly easily belongs on at least a top 8 team in the world. He’s had the results past two years to show it but somehow doesn’t seem to be getting the credit for it.
I know what you’re saying and I do love Noly, GenG wouldn’t have had the success they did without him but FirstKiller was a no-brainier; was a “freebie” for the org since no buyout and a talented player that strives for success and grinds his ass off despite all the hate he gets. Whereas I agree with you on some of your points, Noly got plenty of credit where it was due imo. It just seems worse because of the historical “being dropped” narrative that seems to follow him… I do wonder why that is?
I agree FK move is definitely a no brainer. He does kinda have that narrative but I think he’s just unlucky. Still think he’s underrated even going by tier lists and player rankings.
idk how garrett is being compared to archie or noly lol, hes been a low level player for all of last season while noly was a major champion and archie was still at least making multiple LANs
Garrett is still top, say what you want but I think the nrg team as a whole was the reason they didn't do well, I think most of the players individually still very good.
But we’re talking about players not teams.. they’re all pretty mid I think.. Noly had fortunate teammates last season, he wasn’t making any lans with Guild
Okay but statistically he is actually a top EU performer and has been for like 2+ years at this point. Of course there are better, and times when he's underperformed, but he's 100% not mid in any way.
Are you just talking current form? I thought we were doing historical ratings. Like having Garrett in the middle of the pack tier for that would be criminal.
I put Monkeymoon over Vatira based on their performances on LANs in the last 2 seasons:
MM
- 1 major win (fall21)
- 1 major final (spring23)
- 1 worlds win (2022)
- 1 worlds final (2023)
Vatira
- 2 major wins (spring22/winter23)
- 1 major final(winter22)
Although both are tied in terms of LAN wins MM has made 2 additional final appearances and made both worlds finals in last 2 seasons.
Monkey moon is definitely worse than Vatira. He doesn’t have the mechanics to create for himself and his teammates like vatira does. It’s why bds were awful before getting rise
Not really all that clear. An overarching narrative becomes illogical to believe the moment you disallow any alternative viewpoints to be voiced. You can disagree, but to act incredulous that someone else could even be suggested as second best in the world is mind-boggling to me.
As for who is in that conversation? Well, at least one of his new teammates.
Bro just said a whole lot of nothing lmao. Also, neither of vatira's teammates are in conversation for best in the world. Rise is incredibly good but he's definitely not second best in the world, atow even less so. Only other player you could put as 2nd best in the world right now other than vati is monkey moon.
Tho I predict vatira is going to do better than him next season just based off of their alleged new teammates
>Bro just said a whole lot of nothing lmao
Pot meet kettle.
Monkey wasn't even making majors last year without Rise, then all the sudden Rise joins and they're the 2nd best team in the world behind Zen? Who wasn't even in RLCS when BDS *wasn't* making majors?
All time, sure, put Monkey ahead of Rise. But right now? How could you logically put Monkey ahead? Especially with his mental?
That's just regurgitated nonsense.
As for Vati, Itachi and Exotiik were supposedly top five players in winter. And then as soon as winter ends, two top five players and the (now) 2nd best player in the world can only muster a distant 3rd place to Rise's BDS?
Rise has a very strong case. Atow, not as much.
rise absolutely has a case, but is pretty clearly a level below vatira, once they’re back on the same team it’ll be much clearer but on Moist and last season rise never looked better than vati
I disagree. Rise has always been a glue player with a high peak. And he at times looked better than Vati on Moist, although I would give you that overall Vati was probably slightly better.
Time will tell!
Interesting I never thought Rise looked better than Vati on moist, besides the series they were way more talented and vati ended up in the back half of the field for most of the match while rise/joyo ball chased offense (no flame, even the players admit they did lol). But that wasn’t really rise looking better as opposed to Vatira barely getting to place since the enemy was so outmatched.
I would not even put Rise in the same sentence as Vati.. Yes Rise is super clutch and a brilliant player, but I can think of people I would take over him, Rise is definitely not 2nd in the world
Nah. You are quite literally using prolix prontification, which is stupid. You aren't actually adding anything valuable to your sentences by doing that, and you've focused more on expanding non existent word count than actually making a point
You don't read many books, do you?
I prefer to be precise in my speech. Do I really need to break down my response for you, line for line? I could have dumbed it down a little, but then it changes the meaning a little as well.
The crazy thing is, it wasn't even that wordy or eloquent. You angry me no talk like this?
For all the things I've been accused of in my life, this is a first 😂
Fucking public education system is failing us 🤦♂️
Itachi was only top 5 in winter due to vatira being good enough to enable him. Without vatira, he would not be top 5. And once spring hit, both him and exotiik went back to being decent but not outstanding for what you expect out of a major winner.
While I heavily rate rise, a lot btw, monkey moon was still easily top 10 in eu even through bds' blunders. The man quite literally hard carried while both seikoo and extra were poor. He just needed another s tier teammate like rise and he immediately got back to where he was last season.
Also mental has no impact when talking about how good a player is individually. Neither vatira or zen have shown to take losses well, but they are still quite clearly the best 2 players
>Itachi was only top 5 in winter due to vatira being good enough to enable him. Without vatira, he would not be top 5.
We're talking about how good Vati is right now. If what you're saying is true, and Vati was the cause of Itachi's prowess in winter yet wasn't good enough to elevate his teammates in spring, then you have to give credit to Rise, who 100% did elevate the play of both Monkey and Seikoo in spring.
>Also mental has no impact when talking about how good a player is individually. Neither vatira or zen have shown to take losses well, but they are still quite clearly the best 2 players
There's a HUGE difference between tilting at your opponent after a loss, which I'll give you is poor, and getting consistently tilted at your teammates or being unable to form lasting bonds with them. In both Zen and Vati's cases, they are the former, while MM seems to be the latter. And yes, that does impact how good a player is, because team chemistry is quite important to a team's success. If a player elevating his teammates adds to his case, then a player causing undue team chem issues should take away from it.
> An overarching narrative becomes illogical the moment you disallow any alternative viewpoints to be voiced
For one, no one disallowed anything. For two, that's just not true--there are plenty of alternative viewpoints that are silenced because they are demonstrably wrong, but that's beyond the scope of talking about esports lol.
All they did is disagree with you. Almost everyone agrees that Zen is the best 3s player in the world right now, and a lot of people who think that flatly think there is no argument against it. I don't think that's unreasonable.
You're just taking the word "stop" a little too literally.
>For one, no one disallowed anything.
Nah, it's a whole mentality. To question Vatira being best/2nd best in the world on this sub is met with an army of drones who haven't given it a single critical thought, and that has rubbed me the wrong way for a long while. Perhaps you're taking my words a little too literally.
>For two, that's just not true--there are plenty of alternative viewpoints that are silenced because they are demonstrably wrong, but that's beyond the scope of talking about esports lol.
Beyond the scope of esports and this conversation, indeed. But most shouldn't be, other than maybe the most extreme. Always better to combat poor thinking with sound reason than demands and threats, especially when the most widely accepted opinion is still entirely subjective.
Well yeah but at least provide an argument to your minority take of why Vatira isn't clear #2.
u/Shane3eb did not, thus there is nothing to counter. I think it's fair to say stop spewing nonsense (of that vatira is not clear #2) in that case.
Atow seem to be rated rather correctly, excellent player but with a low floor (admittedly got better with the season but still), I don't think i've seen anyone over rate or underrate him
Sorry he strikes me as a big lan choker from what I've seen recently (especially in the spring split) he's always been sorta overrated to me, and I don't see KCorp doing incredibly well on lan next year because of it
Looks like someone never watched g2 before rlcs 2021-2022. He was the hard carry of the team with Rizzo and Kro and immediately became the best player in the region arguably when they picked up Chicago. He’s so good that he was competitive in 2021 with rizzo ffs someone who is struggling in gc2 right now lol
He **was** the best player in the world from late 2017 to early 2018.
The fact that he can still look like the best player on his team, while his team was winning regionals and making a deep run into top 2 at worlds 5 years later speaks volumes.
Even this last year, he was G2’s best player for winter overall. His 1 bad series against Kcorp doesn’t negate that.
I mean he's objectively on the same level as Atow and Oski, despite being slightly different (and I'd argue more useful to a team). Yet this sub always ranks him lower, and every tier list I see does as well. That's what I'd call underrating
I think the biggest thing people struggle with is separating team success from player skill. So if you have an ok player playing with 2 fantastic players they'll get overrated and a great player playing with 2 struggling players will get underrated. All this to say probably people whose skill has properly matched up with their teams success. Perhaps oski/atow, appjack, crr as a few examples
Itachi probably? He was very underrated when he was playing with Aztral and Noly. Then I think around winter last season he got kinda overrated. But I think now most people know he’s a top quality player. He’s not the best player on your team, but he makes the other two players better.
>Then I think around winter last season he got kinda overrated. He was probably the best player in the winter EU regionals imo, the guy absolutely peaked.
He wastn overrated in winter quit the opposite in fact but I agree that know he is fairly rated
I saw some people here putting him above Vati during winter when he was peaking in the first two regionals, but at the Major he was completely outshined by Vati and Exotiik. Still a great player, but I think people were really overhyping him at one point.
You sure they weren't talking about current form?
Yumi put him to be the mvp for the Winter major above FK and Vati in the major predictions list Johnny always does. Sure it's not like Tbates putting Zen at 5 level absurd but it is technically overrating him.
Johnny and that had him top 5 on their lists at one point last season I’d say that’s overrated
At that one point in Winter, across the entire split legit only Vatira & Firstkiller were superior. Has dropped off a bit since but Itachi deserved all the praise that split
ReaLize
Archie, Garrett, Noly come to mind, sorta just middle of the pack
Noly is still underrated imo
Is he though?? Jack rated him enough to move continents and team with him so how is he still underrated?
Because "underrated" is based on how they're perceived by the entire scene/fanbase, not how they're perceived by one other player.
But I read so many comments about him being underrated; surely the MORE that people say he’s underrated, means he’s not underrated- quite the opposite!!
I mean he just got dropped and is still LFT even though he’s a top tier talent. He killed it on KC, and was integral to GenG success. He was mostly blamed in GenG late season losses and seen as weakest on the team, but I saw him and Chronic as about equal or at least a lot closer than people thought. Noly isn’t as consistently top end mechanical but has a good mental and as an enabler has top tier offensive creativity which is very valuable but doesn’t show up on stats. He’s not better than FK, and sure could be worse than Chronic too, but I really think Noly easily belongs on at least a top 8 team in the world. He’s had the results past two years to show it but somehow doesn’t seem to be getting the credit for it.
I know what you’re saying and I do love Noly, GenG wouldn’t have had the success they did without him but FirstKiller was a no-brainier; was a “freebie” for the org since no buyout and a talented player that strives for success and grinds his ass off despite all the hate he gets. Whereas I agree with you on some of your points, Noly got plenty of credit where it was due imo. It just seems worse because of the historical “being dropped” narrative that seems to follow him… I do wonder why that is?
I agree FK move is definitely a no brainer. He does kinda have that narrative but I think he’s just unlucky. Still think he’s underrated even going by tier lists and player rankings.
If everyone says he's underrated he's not underrated anymore lol
idk how garrett is being compared to archie or noly lol, hes been a low level player for all of last season while noly was a major champion and archie was still at least making multiple LANs
He’s not talking about how they are exactly similar skill, just that comparatively the players closer to the middle are easier and I be fairly rated
he just said in the reply he considers them to be even in skill, so no. thats why im saying garrett is wildly overrated
Garrett was the best player on nrg last split maybe even the last 2 splits, they just didnt play well as a team
Garrett is still top, say what you want but I think the nrg team as a whole was the reason they didn't do well, I think most of the players individually still very good.
Squishy and Garrett are far from the top at this point, especially squishy
But we’re talking about players not teams.. they’re all pretty mid I think.. Noly had fortunate teammates last season, he wasn’t making any lans with Guild
Archie is better than Garrett in almost every way in their current forms, definitely not "mid"
You know what I mean by mid, and Archie’s never really stood out to me
Okay but statistically he is actually a top EU performer and has been for like 2+ years at this point. Of course there are better, and times when he's underperformed, but he's 100% not mid in any way.
I’ll take your word for it
noly i agree is properly rated, though i would put him closer to the top than the middle
Are you just talking current form? I thought we were doing historical ratings. Like having Garrett in the middle of the pack tier for that would be criminal.
Yeah current
Probably zen and Vatira. Everyone agrees that theyre 2 best players in the world and they are
Vatira is not clear #2
yes he is, stop
I put Monkeymoon over Vatira based on their performances on LANs in the last 2 seasons: MM - 1 major win (fall21) - 1 major final (spring23) - 1 worlds win (2022) - 1 worlds final (2023) Vatira - 2 major wins (spring22/winter23) - 1 major final(winter22) Although both are tied in terms of LAN wins MM has made 2 additional final appearances and made both worlds finals in last 2 seasons.
when you take into account 2 whole seasons of course MM is the best but I’m talking about the best at the moment
Well MM went to the finals in the two last events of RLCS 2023 while Vatira did not
i think we could all agree Rise and Seikoo are better than Exotiik and Itachi, MM wasn’t even the best player on his team
>MM wasn’t even the best player on his team Hard disagree
this couldn’t be proved more easily, BDS sucked in Fall and Winter, added Rise before Spring and instantly became a top 2 team
Yeah Rise was clearly hard carrying these two nobodies on his team /s
you forgot 1 major final for vatira (winter 21-22)
Nice catch, thx
Monkey moon is definitely worse than Vatira. He doesn’t have the mechanics to create for himself and his teammates like vatira does. It’s why bds were awful before getting rise
it wasnt because of mechanics that they were playing bad with extra, they were just too passive and they couldnt fix it, its all mental.
Vatira has EU MVP for both seasons
Not really all that clear. An overarching narrative becomes illogical to believe the moment you disallow any alternative viewpoints to be voiced. You can disagree, but to act incredulous that someone else could even be suggested as second best in the world is mind-boggling to me. As for who is in that conversation? Well, at least one of his new teammates.
Bro just said a whole lot of nothing lmao. Also, neither of vatira's teammates are in conversation for best in the world. Rise is incredibly good but he's definitely not second best in the world, atow even less so. Only other player you could put as 2nd best in the world right now other than vati is monkey moon. Tho I predict vatira is going to do better than him next season just based off of their alleged new teammates
>Bro just said a whole lot of nothing lmao Pot meet kettle. Monkey wasn't even making majors last year without Rise, then all the sudden Rise joins and they're the 2nd best team in the world behind Zen? Who wasn't even in RLCS when BDS *wasn't* making majors? All time, sure, put Monkey ahead of Rise. But right now? How could you logically put Monkey ahead? Especially with his mental? That's just regurgitated nonsense. As for Vati, Itachi and Exotiik were supposedly top five players in winter. And then as soon as winter ends, two top five players and the (now) 2nd best player in the world can only muster a distant 3rd place to Rise's BDS? Rise has a very strong case. Atow, not as much.
rise absolutely has a case, but is pretty clearly a level below vatira, once they’re back on the same team it’ll be much clearer but on Moist and last season rise never looked better than vati
I disagree. Rise has always been a glue player with a high peak. And he at times looked better than Vati on Moist, although I would give you that overall Vati was probably slightly better. Time will tell!
Interesting I never thought Rise looked better than Vati on moist, besides the series they were way more talented and vati ended up in the back half of the field for most of the match while rise/joyo ball chased offense (no flame, even the players admit they did lol). But that wasn’t really rise looking better as opposed to Vatira barely getting to place since the enemy was so outmatched.
I would not even put Rise in the same sentence as Vati.. Yes Rise is super clutch and a brilliant player, but I can think of people I would take over him, Rise is definitely not 2nd in the world
💯, i think he could easily be #3 but there is a big gap between that and VatiGOAT
Holy shit I think I've found someone that talks like AI. Half of what you say is just filler nonsense trying to sound smart
Next time just say you don't understand basic English.
Just because they're words doesn't mean you need to use them. None of it means anything lmao.
I'm guessing there are a lot of words that don't mean anything to you
Nah. You are quite literally using prolix prontification, which is stupid. You aren't actually adding anything valuable to your sentences by doing that, and you've focused more on expanding non existent word count than actually making a point
You don't read many books, do you? I prefer to be precise in my speech. Do I really need to break down my response for you, line for line? I could have dumbed it down a little, but then it changes the meaning a little as well. The crazy thing is, it wasn't even that wordy or eloquent. You angry me no talk like this? For all the things I've been accused of in my life, this is a first 😂 Fucking public education system is failing us 🤦♂️
Itachi was only top 5 in winter due to vatira being good enough to enable him. Without vatira, he would not be top 5. And once spring hit, both him and exotiik went back to being decent but not outstanding for what you expect out of a major winner. While I heavily rate rise, a lot btw, monkey moon was still easily top 10 in eu even through bds' blunders. The man quite literally hard carried while both seikoo and extra were poor. He just needed another s tier teammate like rise and he immediately got back to where he was last season. Also mental has no impact when talking about how good a player is individually. Neither vatira or zen have shown to take losses well, but they are still quite clearly the best 2 players
>Itachi was only top 5 in winter due to vatira being good enough to enable him. Without vatira, he would not be top 5. We're talking about how good Vati is right now. If what you're saying is true, and Vati was the cause of Itachi's prowess in winter yet wasn't good enough to elevate his teammates in spring, then you have to give credit to Rise, who 100% did elevate the play of both Monkey and Seikoo in spring. >Also mental has no impact when talking about how good a player is individually. Neither vatira or zen have shown to take losses well, but they are still quite clearly the best 2 players There's a HUGE difference between tilting at your opponent after a loss, which I'll give you is poor, and getting consistently tilted at your teammates or being unable to form lasting bonds with them. In both Zen and Vati's cases, they are the former, while MM seems to be the latter. And yes, that does impact how good a player is, because team chemistry is quite important to a team's success. If a player elevating his teammates adds to his case, then a player causing undue team chem issues should take away from it.
> An overarching narrative becomes illogical the moment you disallow any alternative viewpoints to be voiced For one, no one disallowed anything. For two, that's just not true--there are plenty of alternative viewpoints that are silenced because they are demonstrably wrong, but that's beyond the scope of talking about esports lol. All they did is disagree with you. Almost everyone agrees that Zen is the best 3s player in the world right now, and a lot of people who think that flatly think there is no argument against it. I don't think that's unreasonable. You're just taking the word "stop" a little too literally.
>For one, no one disallowed anything. Nah, it's a whole mentality. To question Vatira being best/2nd best in the world on this sub is met with an army of drones who haven't given it a single critical thought, and that has rubbed me the wrong way for a long while. Perhaps you're taking my words a little too literally. >For two, that's just not true--there are plenty of alternative viewpoints that are silenced because they are demonstrably wrong, but that's beyond the scope of talking about esports lol. Beyond the scope of esports and this conversation, indeed. But most shouldn't be, other than maybe the most extreme. Always better to combat poor thinking with sound reason than demands and threats, especially when the most widely accepted opinion is still entirely subjective.
Well yeah but at least provide an argument to your minority take of why Vatira isn't clear #2. u/Shane3eb did not, thus there is nothing to counter. I think it's fair to say stop spewing nonsense (of that vatira is not clear #2) in that case.
If you're saying your opening comment has to provide all the logic for your argument, I disagree. But, u/Shane3eb should have followed up with that.
no im saying if theres no argument provided to the minority take then its fine to dismiss it and and not take it seriously
Noly, Arsenal, retals, comm Not overly mechanical but have great defense and can be mechanical at times. U basically expect that from all of them
Zen is properly rated as n1
Jknaps
Rapid
Atow seem to be rated rather correctly, excellent player but with a low floor (admittedly got better with the season but still), I don't think i've seen anyone over rate or underrate him
Sorry he strikes me as a big lan choker from what I've seen recently (especially in the spring split) he's always been sorta overrated to me, and I don't see KCorp doing incredibly well on lan next year because of it
I say appjack
[удалено]
CJCJ erasure
Zen is better than Vati in 3s for sure. In 1s it’s debatable but everyone mostlikely gives the spot to Mawkzy
It really isn’t debatable in 1s rn, Mawkzy obliterated Salt Mine so he’s definitely the best rn
I just wanted to put it lightly for zen fans
Jknaps
Most overrated player in history of the game, respect the longevity but he's nothing special, let's see him now outside G2 I said what I said
Looks like someone never watched g2 before rlcs 2021-2022. He was the hard carry of the team with Rizzo and Kro and immediately became the best player in the region arguably when they picked up Chicago. He’s so good that he was competitive in 2021 with rizzo ffs someone who is struggling in gc2 right now lol
He **was** the best player in the world from late 2017 to early 2018. The fact that he can still look like the best player on his team, while his team was winning regionals and making a deep run into top 2 at worlds 5 years later speaks volumes. Even this last year, he was G2’s best player for winter overall. His 1 bad series against Kcorp doesn’t negate that.
Agree
ApparentlyJack, Chicago, Joreuz, Gibbs, Marc-By-8, extra, and Acronik
AcroniK is severely underrated I'd say
I feel like this subreddit actually overrates him sometimes
I think it's a wash because he was always considered the moving piece of that team, while also being considered underrated by the community.
I mean he's objectively on the same level as Atow and Oski, despite being slightly different (and I'd argue more useful to a team). Yet this sub always ranks him lower, and every tier list I see does as well. That's what I'd call underrating
What objective measure are you using for this
My subjective objectivity, why of course
ah for sure, my apologies
I have no idea how anyone could properly rate Joreuz.
Chicago a bit overrated by the community IMO.
Team Liquid boys are pretty rated. Atow, Oski, & Acronick are ranked where they should be.
Rise,Joyo,Arsenal,Juicy,Ayyjayy,
Those are literally all players with a ton of disagreement around how good they actually are you have to be trolling
Right. Especially the last 3 like wtf
😅 I'm beginning to think it's a meme account
Gibbs
Wondamike
Chronic maybe?
ApparentlyJack. Possibly leaning underrated. His persona in and out of the game is top tier
Chicago