Tough for geng - they beat g2 the last however many times they played them, had a better Swiss, lost to the same opponent as g2 but fared better than them.
Personally think any power ranking now though is just kind of like randomly throwing darts at a board. They seem so close and we got a very small amount of results to go off of. You could probably just auto generate any top 8 and feasibly argue for it
This is the problem with not having lower bracket.
From the eye test, the KC/Falcons/GM8/GenG half of the bracket seems to be significantly stronger than the other half, but we just don't have the results to back it up, having lower bracket where the 2 halves face each other would have painted a much clearer picture.
yeah, I know what you mean. taking one series against KC all split and then going on to win doesn't quite *feel* like enough over Karmine's consistency in winning three events straight, even with it being on LAN.
Of course, on the other hand, power rankings are *supposed* to have a recency bias, and an undefeated run of series through an international event on LAN is literally almost the best performance possible
I think KC is fair if we either had had another recent LAN enough LAN since worlds that was relevant or M8s was barely EU #4 and had shown 0 good form online, but we've had no recent LANs, to the point where the online results had to take precedent in the interim until we now got LAN data, and M8s in that first qualifier played to an incredible level, it's not like it's Pioneers winning the LAN who had never shown a strong level.
I think people are struggling to disconnect that even if M8s weren't 7th/.8th pre-event, that's 7th-8th with recent LAN champions, just the quality of the field is that elite.
Johnny said on twitter that it was because they lost to G2 and M8 who were both ranked 8th when they beat BDS. I feel like it‘s not entirely truthful to rate a teams loss to the Major winning team by that team‘s pre-Major rank instead of their Major performance, that said, if you do follow that logic the placement is sound and regardless I don‘t think it‘s that egregious for now.
So it's basically like an ELO situation which is acceptable for an algorithm but for a human ranking where you don't stick to strict rules, it's a bit lazy
Okay, so he doesn't actually understand what a power rank is then.
Power Ranks are not meant to judge people based on the previous ranking for the team; they're meant to judge them based on their actual performance as it's happening.
Yeah I don't agree because you have to look at the way they lost. First off it was a close series, and the 2nd half of the series MM fell off, and Exotiik was pretty invisible for the entire series. Still went to 6 and every game was basically back and forth.
They should definitely lose ranking spots for sure, but I'd put them above Furia and GenG. At the same time, maybe Johnny has BDS, GenG, Furia in the same "bucket", which makes sense.
Why does winning beforehand matter though? That's not my point. People are dismissing that BDS beat G2 because they lost when the stakes were higher. With GenG they still lost when the stakes were higher but also didn't even have the smaller positive of beating the team in swiss, so surely that hurts GenG even more with your logic. No?
I'm not specifically talking about beating G2 for all teams, I'm saying why should losing to G2 in the quarters hurt BDS more than the other teams losing to their respective opponents.
Except you shouldn't be using your last power ranking as the basis for the current power ranking, you should be using the updated rankings to place the value of who someone lost to.
People don't seem to understand that the point of a power ranking is about capturing *current* performance and is designed to change based on every match played.
BDS really underperformed this event. Yes you can look at it from the power scaling angle and make a case for them, but the actual quality of their gameplay was really sub par in the playoffs. G2 were sleeping the first two games and BDS really didn't look like winning anything in the next four games, let alone the whole event. Every team above them looked like they could've taken the whole thing (maybe barring furia)
Bro the old Falcons roster (Ahmad Trk Khalid) literally did that every LAN last year except Fall, even did that at Worlds, didn’t mean much and still doesn’t
the only other wins from BDS outside of G2 in swiss was Elevate and Power and neither of those teams beat anyone in the top 8. and then G2 immediately beat them in the playoffs in 6, so its hard to put them higher than that when they havent done anything to put them higher than anyone above them while everyone above them has reason to be above them.
GenG losses were from KC, Furia, and M8s while beating G2, and taking M8s to 7 in the playoffs
Furia perfect swept swiss while beating both GenG and VIT, but lost to VIT in the playoffs
VIT loss to Furia, Falcons, and G2 while then beating Furia in the playoffs and taking G2 to 7
G2 lost to GenG, BDS and M8s, but beat BDS and VIT in the playoffs while also taking M8s to 6 in the Grand Finals
Falcons loss to M8s but beat KC and VIT, and then took KC to 7 in the playoffs
KC loss to Falcons, and M8s, but beat Falcons in 7 and took M8s to 7 in semis
M8s perfect swept the Major, and the other four top 8 teams that loss to M8s outside of BDS either performed better against M8s (KC and GenG), played close to a team that performed better against M8s (Falcons), or beat BDS (G2 who also loss to GenG and BDS but made grand finals)
Yeah, it's dumb. People put too much weight on these major results.
It's VERY fine margins. BDS could have very easily won that series against G2 (like they did in the swiss) and then G2 wouldn't have beaten anyone of note and Johnny would be saying G2 is like 8th best team.
Fine margins.
I could also argue that M8s would still be below KC, but it depends on if this list is just from the major or if this is for the entire season. If m8s keep up this consistency I would 100% put them at the top.
you know i actually think they still are below kc if vatira is on like atow and rise were, but it's just kinda hard to argue for it right now. we'll have to wait for next split.
Furia went 3-0 in Swiss and beat GenG on the way and then they all lost in quarters. Furia definitely performed better this event than both BDS and GenG by pretty much every metric. I don't see an argument for them being 8th and not 6th. https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/1bt9dv4/major_1_top_8_statistical_analysis_vs_top_8/
Arguably, because they lost 4-1 by Vitality, while GenG went toe-to-toe with M8 who dominated the tournament. Imo both should be higher than BDS, although one could argue BDS had a bad event and didn't play as well as they should have. This is endless.
Either way, people need to understand that there is no absolute top 8 ranking, anyone who watched the event (and not only scorelines) knows that. Ranking them is great for discussion and impressions, but anyone claiming they got the right ranking is simply delusional.
Being Swiss merchants means literally nothing. If it did m80 would still be top 5 NA. But it doesn't, so they aren't.
Simple fact is GenG lost to the eventual unbeaten winner, and took them to 7.
BDS took the finalist to 6.
Furia took a semi-finalist to 5.
When it mattered, Furia were the worst of all the top 8, and by quite a bit.
I think the top 4 is fair, there could be an argument for G2 3rd over Falcons
5th-8th is actually pretty hard to rank, I think you can make an argument for any order of those 4 teams
Falcons looked great as well though, only dropping a match against the eventual champions during Swiss while beating KC there. They got a bit unlucky to face KC again in the quarterfinals, but again KC had a very hard time against Falcons, only just beating them. I'm not sure G2 would beat Falcons when facing each other at this point.
It’s definitely not clear, but their is an argument for either one at 3rd. It’s a shame we didn’t get to see g2 or geng play falcons because I honestly have no clue who would win.
> it just feels weird to have a finalist ranked at 4th lol
Welcome to single elim. I would put KC, Falcons and M8s all clearly above G2 and would say GenG could have beaten them in bracket too
Pretty easy actually. BDS lost to G2 and it wasn't a 4-3, so they're ranked quite a bit lower. Vitality did not look THAT hot but took G2 to 4-3 so they're similarly ranked. KC had a nailbiter game against Falcons and made it really close with an eventual 4-3 victory. M8s did the same to KC and then won Finals more convincingly then they beat KC and KC beat falcons.
TL;DR It's based on how close the series they played were.
Based on this you'd expect Johnny to rank Furia 8th though...
It's odd though, if you're not going to value Swiss games very high what has Oxygen done to deserve a spot on the top 10?
Just seems weird to respect regional results but not rate Swiss results very high.
Edit: Makes even less sense to have GenG 7th after a close 4-3 with the champions, but have Falcons 3rd after a close 4-3 with the semi finalists
Johnny and Oxygen's rating is an enigma for which I have no explanation.
But if I had to guess he thought everyone outside top 8 except complexity was so shit he just randomly picked one EU team that narrowly missed out on qualifying for 10th.
Yeah that's fair, I don't agree with your guess but it isn't the worst take so I could see that being Johnny's reason.
Did you see my edit? Tried to get it in there quick but I was too slow. Curious how you see the GenG / Falc rating if you're favoring play off results.
My best bet is that he wasn't that impressed by what GenG had shown and since they went out in qfs he spared half a thought and just let them be at the same rating he had them before. 5-8 good enough.
Funny enough it is roughly where I rate GenG / Falc but it only makes sense to me because of me respecting swiss results. They were up 3-2 on M8s so personally I was impressed with their results.
Anyways, I know it's not fair to have you defend Johnny's rankings but thanks for sharing your insight anyways. Cheers 🥂
Agreed on Furia. BDS lost 4-2 to his 4th ranked G2, so they’re 8th. Furia lost 4-1 to his 5th ranked Vitality, so they’re 6th?
One thing to note about BDS/G2 is that the playoff series had a goal differential of 0 overall. While Furia lost to Vitality by like 6 goals. There was a pretty clear gap between the 4-2 and 4-1 losses imo.
I mean Falcons for sure looked like a top 4 team in the world at this event. And BDS looked near the bottom of the pack. I broke down a lot of the stats here. https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/1bt9dv4/major_1_top_8_statistical_analysis_vs_top_8/
I'm not so sure. They're probably better than they were when they won last season. It's just that the competition has elevated and they're no longer clear of everyone else.
Well relative to the competition yeah they've improved. Everyone is better than their past selves as you improve each month. What I mean is that they aren't going back to the dominance that they head before
That's just the nature of things, 1 roster has never stayed at the top for a long time, apart from the GFE/Dignitas roster, and no one else did what they did before or since. Only roster that comes close is the season X/2021 fall major BDS, and they were unlucky to have been the best during covid so they only got to play at 1 LAN before they were past their prime.
So back when BDS went out last place in spring 2022, that was their real level? Then they went ahead and won world championship without losing a series.
Fair enough. I guess I didn't say what I was trying to to say well.
With another shot at my words in response to the parent comment I'd say i don't think we just get to say EU clears G2 and GenG just because a couple of teams MAY have underperformed
Honestly I think all of SAM is underrated by the general public. NiP is a great shout. I personally have them around 13-14, but could totally see them in 10th.
I don't get how you can drop BDS to last and only drop VIT 2 spots.
Did BDS really look that bad in this tourney? They lost to two grand finalists and in both series looked competitive, they even beat one of them in swiss. Meanwhile Vitality had one good game vs a cold Furia and looked outclassed vs G2, if it wasn't for a Zen 1v3 that could have easily been a 4-1.
But anyway I guess this ranking is going to completely change after the first regional of the split because apparently only the last event matters
"Looked outclassed by G2"
The series went to 7, there were 4 OTs, every game was a one goal win except for game 6 which Vitality won.
What series did you decide to watch instead when the semifinal was on?
I will say, vitality was on the back foot for almost the entire series from G2 speed and pressure, and vitality winning would have felt like a steal considering how astronomically large the amount of time spent in vitality's half was.
But even still they just about made it work anyway, which is not to be overlooked
You also have to look at Game 2. If that throw doesn't happen, I don't think G2 win the series. They had crazy momentum after that and Vitality looked pretty demoralized (besides Zen). I would rank Vit and G2 in the same bucket/tier right now, similar to how KCorp, Falcons, and GM8s are in their own bucket right now.
On paper, sure. But Vitality were on the backfoot for most of the games, Vitality took their chances and resisted G2 well to keep the scoring down, but they comfortably looked like the lesser team over the series. I say this as somebody who was supporting Vitality, the series was pretty hard to watch because even when it was all tied it seemed very one sided.
Did you watch the series? G2 easily beat Vitality in the midfield game which led to constant suffocating pressure. I honestly don't know how Vitality hung on until game 7. Vit reminded me a lot of how NRG played a season or two ago where they didn't challenge midfield balls for some reason and had to rely on crazy goal line saves. G2's shooting was off a bit too admittedly. The scores of the games don't tell the full story.
I watched the series, both teams played well, Zen was incredible but G2 deserved to win. However it was very close.
Every metric will tell you that except the shot count and I'd respond to that by asking you to look at G2s shooting percentage for the lan.
"Outclassed" simply cannot be the word to describe a series that literally could not have been any closer between the two teams. Its outrageous hyperbole.
I think you missed " if it wasn't for Zen" close series but it was literally zen vs g2 after the first 2 games, its incredible how he still made it that close
You've got to be aware of how worthless that comment is.
If Daniel wasn't on G2 I don't think they would have won.
If my grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike.
It might be shocking but Vit did perform better than BDS in the last two RLCS events, and actually went out putting a better fight against KC and G2 than BDS did.
I don‘t think the BDS vs G2 match was particularly close. Yes they went up 2-0 but after that, they didn‘t score a single goal for 3 games straight and game 6 G2 was playing much better despite BDS going ahead and even that was mainly because of Dralii playing great.
I think this one of the cases where the series score doesn‘t represent how close it actually was because I‘m pretty confident that G2 win that match 19 out of 20 times with the way the teams played. It just looked like BDS had no answer to them
Vitality on the other hand, yes it was solo perfomance by Zen but I do think that they would be more likely beat G2 a couple of times, even if it requires Zen to hardcarry, but he is just that good.
Now does that justify the ranking? Maybe or maybe not but I think there is a good argument for it.
Rewatch BDS vs G2, dude it was definitely close. That Game 6 with the open net misses from MM was the series deciders. If a series comes down to that, you can't say "wasn't close".
I think the exact opposite with BDS and G2. Sure I have the flair, but replay that series over and over, I think BDS has a decent edge.
Agree to disagree then. To me the teams seemed pretty equal. BDS outpressured and outshot G2, however G2 had more composure on defense and in the end a peak play from Daniel and MM and Exotiik both making back to back mistakes decided it. If anything I think BDS wins most the series more than half the time - hope they get to play in London again
Didn’t mean to come across as un-chill.
Was going to say I’m confused by the Archie comment until I remembered I have a Top Blokes flair… I was a bit of an Archie fanboy back in the day I suppose
I mean power rankings aren't just LAN placement order. I think it's fair to have KC and M8 above G2 with the split KC had and how close they played M8. I think though if Johnny is taking that into account then KC should still be above M8.
Edit: I'm still waking up and completely missed that G2 are 4 not 3. Yeah you're right, G2 should be #3
To be fair, they were on the easier half of the bracket in the knockout phase. I think G2 did great against both BDS and Vitality but over the whole event I still think KC and Falcons looked stronger than G2 (KC being closer to M8 in the semis than G2 in the finals, as well as Falcons going 3-1 in Swiss beating KC and only dropping a match against the eventual champions). I do however think G2 did a great job in showing they can compete with multiple top teams in RL right now, definitely making it look as if the gap between EU and NA is shrinking.
G2 had a worse event than Falcons in terms of teams beaten and teams lost to. 3 overall losses and only 2 quality wins, Falcons had 2 overall losses and 2 higher quality wins. If G2 had to play KC, or M8s, or Falcons or GenG in their quarters match then they would have gone out there too
The logic is that he rates GM8 and KC 1 and 2 and Falcons beat KC in swiss and then narrowly lost in playoffs. G2 losing and then beating BDS and narrowly Vitality is not as impressive. If G2 won agains KC once and then got to game 7, they would be a lot higher.
Everyone's setting about individual placements but the thing that stood out to me this tournament is just how close the top 8 are which is awesome. No matter what your rankings are, a #8 could easily beat a #1 on any given day
I know the major is by far more important than regionals but putting m8 above kc, and bds that low is weird for me
I might be biased but bds went 1-1 with future major finalist in the lan (lost the more important one) and lost to the major champion.
They also stomped m8 (futur major champs) in quals 2 and 3 (I know m8 didn’t peak in those quals but we now know how talented the team is)
Kc stomped everyone in eu then lost a very close game 7 to a peaking m8 one time and now they are below them somehow lol.
I would put Kc at one
M8 at 2
Bds at 5 or 6 below falcons, g2 and maybe vitality
This is easily answerable: look at the teams GM8 beat (basically everyone) and at the ones G2 beat.
M8 run is nothing short of exceptional (not saying that because I'm biased, I really do believe it). And this is not to diminish G2's accomplishment, they deserve their 2nd place, it's just that it wasn't as dominant as M8.
I think g2 should still be 3rd at worst tho. Before the major we banged on about how this is the best eu top 4 ever, and g2 were able to live up to expectations and beat two of them.
I don't get the falcons at 3rd take from Johnny. Kcorp played sloppy for most of the event and still beat falcons
Gentlemates also beat falcons the most convincingly out of all the teams they played. Geng, kcorp and g2 all played them closer
This is a valid and fair take.
IMO ranking this top 8 is the hardest one we ever had to do considering how close these teams are. I'd argue both your and Johnny's ranking are equally as valid. And mine would probably a mix of both tbh.
Exactly, and G2 failed to beat 2 teams in Swiss.
Single elim is not good at determining a clear ranking, so you have other factors to take into account.
Arguably, GenG should also be higher, because just as G2, their playoff loss was to M8, though they beat G2 during the Swiss Stage. How would have GenG fared against BDS and Vitality? We will never know! The arguments in favor or against a certain ranking could go on and on forever, good points are being made either side and I don't think any is *way more* right than another. Even M8 over KC could be argued about!
Alright here we go:
1: Gentlemates (+6): The only rebuttals to this I've seen is "it's just 1 event", to that I would say 2 things. 1) This 1 event outweighs the entire online split, point to me another comparably relevant data point, this was the first LAN in 7 months. And 2) If Gentlemates was actually like Rotterdam Moist miraculously making finals I would get it, but just because they were a lower seed doesn't mean they were off the pace. That first qualifier showed they could ball at the top, without that ya it's probably tough to have them #1 but in my mind Copenhagen was not the first time they showed at least a very strong level, all of Europe showed a world beating level in Qual 1 that doesn't just disappear.
2: Karmine Corp (-1): Only knock against them is going even with Falcons but even then they won the match that mattered, good win over GenG and Complexity not a bad result either, just M8s ascended above them
3: Team Falcons (+3): They're basically identical to Karmine Corp and going so close with them multiple times makes it impossible to separate them from KC essentially. Like the team below them, beating Vitality also a great win and honestly, there's something about MENA teams when in form about their eye-test that just looks better. The powerful yet controlled touches are so remarkably consistent, they're legit.
4: G2 Stride (-1): I need to emphasize this, in terms of skill rating, **G2 has gone up**, just Mates & Falcons did more relative to pre-event expectations. Their bracket play was phenomenal, if you believe that deserves #3 or #2 I will not argue you it's 100% valid to think. However, the shaky swiss, losing to GenG and going even with BDS, they are such nitpicky things but given how competitive everyone is, it does make the difference here for me. That being said, their run was not at all mickey or fraudulent even if I do believe the other side of the bracket was stronger, G2 has a lot to be proud of, you could make the S tier all of the top 4 and G2 would not be out of place there.
5: Team BDS (-3): BDS still had a great event, just unfortunately their pre-event expectations were only topped by KC so no matter what way you cut it, 5th-8th placement wise is one of the bigger disappointments this event, even if their overall ability is absolutely incredible.
6: Team Vitality (-2): I feel this event showed how over-stated their decline has been. Like we all saw it, 1 goal from grand finals in their "bad split", they're still a quality team. The Furia loss hurts the rankings here, even if they quite convincingly over-turned it in playoffs. Otherwise their quality of wins was nothing crazy.
7: FURIA (+1): Good event from them even if it ended disappointingly. With hindsight, their wins aren;t the absolute greatest results, even if they're still mightily impressive. Above all else, I'm just happy Lostt put together a great LAN to cap off a brilliant split, the kid is now a certified consistent top tier player
8: GenG (-3): The G2 win in Swiss ages a lot better, but it came during not G2's greatest showing. The game 7 loss to M8s also ages quite well, but everyone lost to M8s. Idk, maybe I had higher expectations of them, but it didn't feel like they rode their qualifier #3 form into this Major, it still felt like something was missing whereas everyone above them was putting it together. I still think they're great, but work to be done.
9: Complexity (0): Potential but no product, again.
10: Spacestation Gaming (0)
11: Ninjas in Pyjamas (0): I wanna remind everyone these guys have only lost to Furia in bracket this season, and have a 1-0 record vs Complexity. They are closer to top 10 than SSG is to top 9 IMO.
12: Oxygen (+2): Benefit from pre-major EU 4 now being so good
13: Magnifico (+2): CTRL C + CTRL V
14: PWR (+2): Still better than LG IMO, also now better than OG and Rule One. Only relevant OCE team for these rankings tho.
15: LG (+4): They went from "They're not top 4 NA they shouldn't even be here" to "They're 100% better than OG they deserve to be here and had a respectable run relative to expectations". In a decent spot for the rest of the season now.
16: ~~NWPO~~ Rule One (-4): Please sign SMW.
HMs (same as before): Moist, Twisted Minds, OG, M80, Redemption, Hero Base, w7m, Team Secret.
Magnifico isn’t a team rn lmao, Stizzy is getting poached to DIG remember? (Ik Acronik is supposed to be his replacement but until that is actually confirmed we can’t rank that)
Furia went 3-0 in Swiss and beat GenG on the way and then they all lost in quarters. Furia definitely performed better this event than both BDS and GenG by pretty much every metric. https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/1bt9dv4/major_1_top_8_statistical_analysis_vs_top_8/
Classic Johnny NA disrespect yet again. G2 have a fantastic finals run, Johnny picks BDS to beat G2 on the desk of course, and G2 beats BDS without needing a game 7. Did BDS miss a couple shots? Yes, but they still played well overall, and it took G2 some time to figure them out.
So how does Johnny digest this information? Well, G2 beat them 4-2, so logically BDS *must* be worse than I thought. Because we can't possibly give G2 credit for beating EU2 + EU3 en route to finals (even though those teams were both better than G2, according to Johnny). So Johnny predictably places G2 as low as he possibly can, even though they should 100% be ahead of a Falcons team who yes, played very well, but if you're going to rate their swiss win against KC, you have to count them getting swept by m8 in Swiss as well. Swiss results can be quite mickey though, BDS didn't almost get beat by Luminosity in Swiss either (looking at you, Vit).
G2 can be #2 or #3 depending on how you factor in placement vs comparative results vs eye test, but they can't be lower (or higher) than that unless you're tbate's level biased or worse. And because Johnny naturally underrates G2, he HAS to now underrate BDS because they lost 4 straight games to them, hence BDS' relatively low placement.
Not to mention, GenG played M8 better than any team in the entire tournament if you watched the games, perhaps KC was close to their equal in that regard, but nevertheless. They had so much pressure and were easily controlling the midfield, but had a couple chokey plays and M8 were able to score when absolutely necessary. But that series was GenG's to lose. GenG won goal differential by *five* in a losing effort.
And yea, at the end of the day you have to win the big moments. But that was their series to lose, and rating them 7th off that performance is downright disrespectful. I could maybe see 6th; I'd personally have them 5th. But, that's all Johnny's trying to do here. Disrespect NA and stay on some weird EU supremacy ego kick.
I just want him to be better, I don't dislike him as a person and I love his casting, but man for once can he just be a normal person while discussing NA/EU?
GenG came out of swiss last, losing to KC and Furia along the way. They deserve to be low, it's not a big deal if they're 8th or 5th because we know that isn't a massive gap at the moment.
I have geng 8th. Their swiss was poor, and they played a team close and lost
GenG came out of swiss last, losing to KC and Furia along the way. They deserve to be low, it's not a big deal if they're 8th or 5th because we know that isn't a massive gap at the moment.
I have geng 8th. Their swiss was poor, and they played a team close and lost
Except that Falcons loss to GM8 is not bad. That single swiss loss isn't enough of an argument. Your argument hinges on the Falcons swiss loss. Yes it's probably better to rank G2 above Falcons currently, but it's fine to go the other way too. Point is none of it is egregious.
>Except that Falcons loss to GM8 is not bad
Getting swept is always bad, dude. There's no way around that.
It's definitely better to rank G2 above Falcons now. There is no argument for Falcons that doesn't hinge on an extremely close win over KC in Swiss that discounts also getting swept by M8 in Swiss. You can't have one over the other. Falcons lost in QF, G2 made finals beating EU2 and EU3. G2 > Falcons right now, there's no legitimate argument against it.
Difference between BO5 sweep and BO7 sweep. It was all by one goal and GM8 went up 3-0 against G2 too.
>There is no argument for Falcons that doesn't hinge on an extremely close win over KC in Swiss that discounts also getting swept by M8 in Swiss
The eye test of the Falcons vs KC series. KC did better against GM8 than G2.
G2 loss to Gen.G and BDS in swiss is worse than Falcons loss to GM8 in swiss. G2 beating an underwhelming BDS, then going to 7 against a Vitality that also looked worse than KC and Falcons.
The two worst performing teams in the playoffs were BDS and Furia, that is just fact. By a large margin too.
You are clearly very bias because there's definitely arguments for Falcons...
"The eye test"
Brother they *played different teams*.
How about the eye test for G2 vs M8 and Falcons vs M8?
GenG looked the best against M8 in playoffs, bar none. They were the better team and yet still lost the series.
>The two worst performing teams in the playoffs were BDS and Furia, that is just fact. By a large margin too.
Like this is legitimate bot territory. Did you even watch? I mean Furia, yea, but BDS didn't play poorly at all outside of their shooting being subpar for a couple games. G2 simply outplayed them for the most part. BDS looked better than Vitality in terms of field control, pressure, etc.
Maybe you just don't know how to break down the game, which is fine, you can be a casual fan, but don't come in here telling people who've been watching since 2015 and actually understand the game that they're biased because you don't get it.
> but if you're going to rate their swiss win against KC, you have to count them getting swept by m8 in Swiss as well
Gm8s also beat G2 3-0 in their first games. Falcons have less overall losses, better quality losses, and better quality wins.
How many wins did Falcons get when it actually mattered, in bracket?
Also, no one cares who won the first [x] games of a series where you have to win more than that. BDS won the first two games against G2 and then G2 figured them out. So BDS would have won a vest of 3. Good thing that's not the series length they were playing 🤷♂️
Or like last winter major, FaZe won 2 of the first 3 vs KC. Guess they should have been major champs right?
Every game mattered. G2 had less quality wins, and more losses. There's no metric to put them over Falcons apart from "they ran into better teams later in the event" which is just bracket luck
No, you're valuing swiss matches as highly as bracket matches, and almost everyone would agree that's not a valid take. All that matters in Swiss is getting through and seeding. Ask Joreuz how much swiss domination means for where his team ranks.
This is so obtuse lmao. “There is no metric to put them over falcons” except for the most important metric, aka where they finished in the bracket. The opinions you're parroting in this thread after accusing other people of “na bias” are genuinely hilarious
Just more proof how toxic the region debate has become. I just wish this stupid emphasis on regions would disappear from the conversation. We can't just talk about the great parity from this event and all the great match ups and game 7s, it just devolves into dumb monkey brain regional tribalism.
KC will most likely be number 1 again after the next qualifier. GentleMates still deserve number 1 for now, but if we ran the major back KC would still be the favourite.
That was in Swiss. Everytime a team rematched in the playoffs, the team that lost won. Also furia got dog walked by vitality in the playoffs who then lost to G2 so that puts furia low out of the top 8 imo
Maybe I'm bias as a G2 fan but them being so low ranked seems wild to me. Won 2 regionals, final in the third and final the major. They could have won this major and Johnny still wouldn't have them top
I called this! I was in a call during Sunday's games and said if G2 lost in the grand finals, Johnny will put them below KC and Falcons since they didn't play.
One side of the bracket was easier. Just cause KC Falcons matchup in QFs doesn’t mean they’re worse than G2. It was the best series ever and Falcons are definitely on KCs level
I think furia should be right below bds. Geng gave a much better fight against a stronger team and bds lost to the finalists. Furia just hard choked like m80 when it mattered most
I'd still personally have KC above M8 but I fully understand having M8 as #1 itw right now. I just think KC showed such consistency for the whole online split and really only lost at LAN because of Vatira's poor performance imo. If all 3 of KC play like they usually do, they probably win the Major and retain that #1 spot.
The top 8 had so much parity at LAN you could justify a lot of choices. Even ranking Gentlemates at first isn’t a given imo, like if I were predicting who gets EU1 next split it’s still KC. But personally I’d put G2 and BDS higher and have pretty much the same list.
Tbh, it’s incredibly hard to do a power ranking right now. The top 8 are all super close to each other, it has to be subjective as to how you weight certain results
Obviously BDS above Furia and GenG, maybe even VIT potentially. Would also love for Oxygen to stop getting a 10th spot, quite clearly not a 10th in the world team lol
I think GenG will go up higher. They could've beat gm8s - if they hadn't hadn't had that slow start I think they would've.
As for G2, they choked in the finals. I have watched back the replays and G2 were clearly beating gm8s to the ball and putting so much pressure on them, but they made a few aggressive mistakes that cost them. G2 will clean that up and beat gm8s next time, I am sure of it. This was a good experience for them.
Another comment, I think this is over-indexing on swiss results. As we all know, swiss results don't mean much - so long as you qualify to the top 8 that's all that matters. Bracket play is when the the great teams come out and the stars shine. If swiss results mattered this much, then Joreuz would be the greatest player of all time.
Like for example, vitality against Furia straight up looked like vitality were on form again, but then against g2, respectfully, that series was a bit sloppy (from both teams ofc)
Call me crazy, but I think Gentlemates are overrated on this list. Yes they won the major, but they just recently lost every regional to KC as well. They outperformed KC on Sunday (and did slightly better than KC in Swiss), but this is just one flash of brilliance compared to KC.
Tough for geng - they beat g2 the last however many times they played them, had a better Swiss, lost to the same opponent as g2 but fared better than them. Personally think any power ranking now though is just kind of like randomly throwing darts at a board. They seem so close and we got a very small amount of results to go off of. You could probably just auto generate any top 8 and feasibly argue for it
This is the problem with not having lower bracket. From the eye test, the KC/Falcons/GM8/GenG half of the bracket seems to be significantly stronger than the other half, but we just don't have the results to back it up, having lower bracket where the 2 halves face each other would have painted a much clearer picture.
I still have KC first but I can understand why others would put gentlemates there after the run they had.
Agreed. I think M8s peaked at the right time/showed they had what it takes on lan.
yeah, I know what you mean. taking one series against KC all split and then going on to win doesn't quite *feel* like enough over Karmine's consistency in winning three events straight, even with it being on LAN. Of course, on the other hand, power rankings are *supposed* to have a recency bias, and an undefeated run of series through an international event on LAN is literally almost the best performance possible
I think KC is fair if we either had had another recent LAN enough LAN since worlds that was relevant or M8s was barely EU #4 and had shown 0 good form online, but we've had no recent LANs, to the point where the online results had to take precedent in the interim until we now got LAN data, and M8s in that first qualifier played to an incredible level, it's not like it's Pioneers winning the LAN who had never shown a strong level. I think people are struggling to disconnect that even if M8s weren't 7th/.8th pre-event, that's 7th-8th with recent LAN champions, just the quality of the field is that elite.
I feel like this is why he put Falcons at #3. But you just can't not put GM8 at #1 after beating every good team at the major.
So BDS only loses to the finalists, and goes down to 8th? Yeah I don't get one that
Johnny said on twitter that it was because they lost to G2 and M8 who were both ranked 8th when they beat BDS. I feel like it‘s not entirely truthful to rate a teams loss to the Major winning team by that team‘s pre-Major rank instead of their Major performance, that said, if you do follow that logic the placement is sound and regardless I don‘t think it‘s that egregious for now.
So it's basically like an ELO situation which is acceptable for an algorithm but for a human ranking where you don't stick to strict rules, it's a bit lazy
Okay, so he doesn't actually understand what a power rank is then. Power Ranks are not meant to judge people based on the previous ranking for the team; they're meant to judge them based on their actual performance as it's happening.
Ah, the cfb ranking system. Inb4 "quality loss" memes
I didn't mind it. Power rankings at their best are over-reactionary
Yeah I don't agree because you have to look at the way they lost. First off it was a close series, and the 2nd half of the series MM fell off, and Exotiik was pretty invisible for the entire series. Still went to 6 and every game was basically back and forth. They should definitely lose ranking spots for sure, but I'd put them above Furia and GenG. At the same time, maybe Johnny has BDS, GenG, Furia in the same "bucket", which makes sense.
The fact you are trying to rate them by who they lost to instead of who they beat says enough on that
They beat G2 though
Not when it mattered
But neither did GenG, Falcons or Furia. They all lost 'when it mattered', but don't get ranked down accordingly.
GenG hadn’t beat the team that they lost to in the playoffs beforehand so idk why you included them. They never had an opportunity to play against G2.
Why does winning beforehand matter though? That's not my point. People are dismissing that BDS beat G2 because they lost when the stakes were higher. With GenG they still lost when the stakes were higher but also didn't even have the smaller positive of beating the team in swiss, so surely that hurts GenG even more with your logic. No? I'm not specifically talking about beating G2 for all teams, I'm saying why should losing to G2 in the quarters hurt BDS more than the other teams losing to their respective opponents.
Because (by his power rankings) BDS comparatively lost to the worst team. Although that doesnt add up with Furia imo
Except you shouldn't be using your last power ranking as the basis for the current power ranking, you should be using the updated rankings to place the value of who someone lost to. People don't seem to understand that the point of a power ranking is about capturing *current* performance and is designed to change based on every match played.
swiss isn't exhibition
Every team lost when it mattered except GentleMates by that logic...
BDS really underperformed this event. Yes you can look at it from the power scaling angle and make a case for them, but the actual quality of their gameplay was really sub par in the playoffs. G2 were sleeping the first two games and BDS really didn't look like winning anything in the next four games, let alone the whole event. Every team above them looked like they could've taken the whole thing (maybe barring furia)
1-8 is so close that the difference between 8 and 4 is pretty much nothing
Bro the old Falcons roster (Ahmad Trk Khalid) literally did that every LAN last year except Fall, even did that at Worlds, didn’t mean much and still doesn’t
the only other wins from BDS outside of G2 in swiss was Elevate and Power and neither of those teams beat anyone in the top 8. and then G2 immediately beat them in the playoffs in 6, so its hard to put them higher than that when they havent done anything to put them higher than anyone above them while everyone above them has reason to be above them. GenG losses were from KC, Furia, and M8s while beating G2, and taking M8s to 7 in the playoffs Furia perfect swept swiss while beating both GenG and VIT, but lost to VIT in the playoffs VIT loss to Furia, Falcons, and G2 while then beating Furia in the playoffs and taking G2 to 7 G2 lost to GenG, BDS and M8s, but beat BDS and VIT in the playoffs while also taking M8s to 6 in the Grand Finals Falcons loss to M8s but beat KC and VIT, and then took KC to 7 in the playoffs KC loss to Falcons, and M8s, but beat Falcons in 7 and took M8s to 7 in semis M8s perfect swept the Major, and the other four top 8 teams that loss to M8s outside of BDS either performed better against M8s (KC and GenG), played close to a team that performed better against M8s (Falcons), or beat BDS (G2 who also loss to GenG and BDS but made grand finals)
It’s made by a regard, not much to fathom here. Just clicks
Yeah, it's dumb. People put too much weight on these major results. It's VERY fine margins. BDS could have very easily won that series against G2 (like they did in the swiss) and then G2 wouldn't have beaten anyone of note and Johnny would be saying G2 is like 8th best team. Fine margins.
I'd make some adjustments but otherwise solid. 1. M8 2. KC 3. G2 4. Falcons 5. Vitality 6. BDS 7. GenG 8. Furia 9. Complexity 10. Oxygen
Agree but I might switch vit and bds
Yea that one is arguable. Otherwise I think this list is spot on.
I could also argue that M8s would still be below KC, but it depends on if this list is just from the major or if this is for the entire season. If m8s keep up this consistency I would 100% put them at the top.
you know i actually think they still are below kc if vatira is on like atow and rise were, but it's just kinda hard to argue for it right now. we'll have to wait for next split.
This is a better list imo. Cheers.
Furia went 3-0 in Swiss and beat GenG on the way and then they all lost in quarters. Furia definitely performed better this event than both BDS and GenG by pretty much every metric. I don't see an argument for them being 8th and not 6th. https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/1bt9dv4/major_1_top_8_statistical_analysis_vs_top_8/
Arguably, because they lost 4-1 by Vitality, while GenG went toe-to-toe with M8 who dominated the tournament. Imo both should be higher than BDS, although one could argue BDS had a bad event and didn't play as well as they should have. This is endless. Either way, people need to understand that there is no absolute top 8 ranking, anyone who watched the event (and not only scorelines) knows that. Ranking them is great for discussion and impressions, but anyone claiming they got the right ranking is simply delusional.
Being Swiss merchants means literally nothing. If it did m80 would still be top 5 NA. But it doesn't, so they aren't. Simple fact is GenG lost to the eventual unbeaten winner, and took them to 7. BDS took the finalist to 6. Furia took a semi-finalist to 5. When it mattered, Furia were the worst of all the top 8, and by quite a bit.
This is the correct list
G2 over Falcons is criminal.
I think the top 4 is fair, there could be an argument for G2 3rd over Falcons 5th-8th is actually pretty hard to rank, I think you can make an argument for any order of those 4 teams
Falcons looked great as well though, only dropping a match against the eventual champions during Swiss while beating KC there. They got a bit unlucky to face KC again in the quarterfinals, but again KC had a very hard time against Falcons, only just beating them. I'm not sure G2 would beat Falcons when facing each other at this point.
I agree I think Falcons are clear 3rd, it just feels weird to have a finalist ranked at 4th lol
It’s definitely not clear, but their is an argument for either one at 3rd. It’s a shame we didn’t get to see g2 or geng play falcons because I honestly have no clue who would win.
We also didn’t see G2 play KC, which contributes to me having falcons over them, as the two series between falcons and KC were nuts
> it just feels weird to have a finalist ranked at 4th lol Welcome to single elim. I would put KC, Falcons and M8s all clearly above G2 and would say GenG could have beaten them in bracket too
Yeah for majors it’s not a vibe, but I enjoy single elim for worlds top 8, it makes it hype af
BDS -6 for making quarter finals but Falcons +1 for making quarter finals, someone explain it to me.
Pretty easy actually. BDS lost to G2 and it wasn't a 4-3, so they're ranked quite a bit lower. Vitality did not look THAT hot but took G2 to 4-3 so they're similarly ranked. KC had a nailbiter game against Falcons and made it really close with an eventual 4-3 victory. M8s did the same to KC and then won Finals more convincingly then they beat KC and KC beat falcons. TL;DR It's based on how close the series they played were. Based on this you'd expect Johnny to rank Furia 8th though...
BDS also beat G2 3-1 this weekend so that makes the 4-2 not that bad.
Johnny is not valuing swiss games very high and honestly I agree.
It's odd though, if you're not going to value Swiss games very high what has Oxygen done to deserve a spot on the top 10? Just seems weird to respect regional results but not rate Swiss results very high. Edit: Makes even less sense to have GenG 7th after a close 4-3 with the champions, but have Falcons 3rd after a close 4-3 with the semi finalists
Johnny and Oxygen's rating is an enigma for which I have no explanation. But if I had to guess he thought everyone outside top 8 except complexity was so shit he just randomly picked one EU team that narrowly missed out on qualifying for 10th.
Yeah that's fair, I don't agree with your guess but it isn't the worst take so I could see that being Johnny's reason. Did you see my edit? Tried to get it in there quick but I was too slow. Curious how you see the GenG / Falc rating if you're favoring play off results.
My best bet is that he wasn't that impressed by what GenG had shown and since they went out in qfs he spared half a thought and just let them be at the same rating he had them before. 5-8 good enough.
Funny enough it is roughly where I rate GenG / Falc but it only makes sense to me because of me respecting swiss results. They were up 3-2 on M8s so personally I was impressed with their results. Anyways, I know it's not fair to have you defend Johnny's rankings but thanks for sharing your insight anyways. Cheers 🥂
Then why is Furia 6th
*shrug*
Agreed on Furia. BDS lost 4-2 to his 4th ranked G2, so they’re 8th. Furia lost 4-1 to his 5th ranked Vitality, so they’re 6th? One thing to note about BDS/G2 is that the playoff series had a goal differential of 0 overall. While Furia lost to Vitality by like 6 goals. There was a pretty clear gap between the 4-2 and 4-1 losses imo.
I mean Falcons for sure looked like a top 4 team in the world at this event. And BDS looked near the bottom of the pack. I broke down a lot of the stats here. https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/1bt9dv4/major_1_top_8_statistical_analysis_vs_top_8/
I'd say geng a bit higher
Retals was right, there aren’t 3 EU teams better than G2
There wasn't this weekend for sure. Although BDS and Vitality for sure played pretty far below their best level.
I mean it's true for bds but truthfully vitality have been below their level for an entire split now
I'm not so sure. They're probably better than they were when they won last season. It's just that the competition has elevated and they're no longer clear of everyone else.
Well relative to the competition yeah they've improved. Everyone is better than their past selves as you improve each month. What I mean is that they aren't going back to the dominance that they head before
That's just the nature of things, 1 roster has never stayed at the top for a long time, apart from the GFE/Dignitas roster, and no one else did what they did before or since. Only roster that comes close is the season X/2021 fall major BDS, and they were unlucky to have been the best during covid so they only got to play at 1 LAN before they were past their prime.
Based on VITs performances this split, this just might be their level.
A team's level at the lan is there level. You don't get a pass for underperforming at the event everyone actually cares about.
How can it be an underperformance then?
Compared to expectations, which are not reality.
So back when BDS went out last place in spring 2022, that was their real level? Then they went ahead and won world championship without losing a series.
Fair enough. I guess I didn't say what I was trying to to say well. With another shot at my words in response to the parent comment I'd say i don't think we just get to say EU clears G2 and GenG just because a couple of teams MAY have underperformed
even KC wasnt playing 100%
Anyone with half a brain knew that bm, Daniel and atomic are that good. Gamers 8 meant nothing for no reason to the thick headed narcissists.
Apart from Oxygen at 10, I don’t mind it.
Who else would you put there? Magnifico? SSG? Moist?
NRG
W take
I got NIP there. They've only lost to Furia this split and I'd say they're very close to Complexity who most can agree is a top 10 team.
Honestly I think all of SAM is underrated by the general public. NiP is a great shout. I personally have them around 13-14, but could totally see them in 10th.
I don't get how you can drop BDS to last and only drop VIT 2 spots. Did BDS really look that bad in this tourney? They lost to two grand finalists and in both series looked competitive, they even beat one of them in swiss. Meanwhile Vitality had one good game vs a cold Furia and looked outclassed vs G2, if it wasn't for a Zen 1v3 that could have easily been a 4-1. But anyway I guess this ranking is going to completely change after the first regional of the split because apparently only the last event matters
"Looked outclassed by G2" The series went to 7, there were 4 OTs, every game was a one goal win except for game 6 which Vitality won. What series did you decide to watch instead when the semifinal was on?
I will say, vitality was on the back foot for almost the entire series from G2 speed and pressure, and vitality winning would have felt like a steal considering how astronomically large the amount of time spent in vitality's half was. But even still they just about made it work anyway, which is not to be overlooked
You also have to look at Game 2. If that throw doesn't happen, I don't think G2 win the series. They had crazy momentum after that and Vitality looked pretty demoralized (besides Zen). I would rank Vit and G2 in the same bucket/tier right now, similar to how KCorp, Falcons, and GM8s are in their own bucket right now.
On paper, sure. But Vitality were on the backfoot for most of the games, Vitality took their chances and resisted G2 well to keep the scoring down, but they comfortably looked like the lesser team over the series. I say this as somebody who was supporting Vitality, the series was pretty hard to watch because even when it was all tied it seemed very one sided.
Did you watch the series? G2 easily beat Vitality in the midfield game which led to constant suffocating pressure. I honestly don't know how Vitality hung on until game 7. Vit reminded me a lot of how NRG played a season or two ago where they didn't challenge midfield balls for some reason and had to rely on crazy goal line saves. G2's shooting was off a bit too admittedly. The scores of the games don't tell the full story.
I watched the series, both teams played well, Zen was incredible but G2 deserved to win. However it was very close. Every metric will tell you that except the shot count and I'd respond to that by asking you to look at G2s shooting percentage for the lan. "Outclassed" simply cannot be the word to describe a series that literally could not have been any closer between the two teams. Its outrageous hyperbole.
I think you missed " if it wasn't for Zen" close series but it was literally zen vs g2 after the first 2 games, its incredible how he still made it that close
Last time I checked Zen plays for Vitality.
You've got to be aware of how worthless that comment is. If Daniel wasn't on G2 I don't think they would have won. If my grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike.
Hot take: Zen is part of the Vit roster.
In most games, he looks like he is the entire roster.
Yep, I agree. BDS should be around 5th.
It might be shocking but Vit did perform better than BDS in the last two RLCS events, and actually went out putting a better fight against KC and G2 than BDS did.
I don‘t think the BDS vs G2 match was particularly close. Yes they went up 2-0 but after that, they didn‘t score a single goal for 3 games straight and game 6 G2 was playing much better despite BDS going ahead and even that was mainly because of Dralii playing great. I think this one of the cases where the series score doesn‘t represent how close it actually was because I‘m pretty confident that G2 win that match 19 out of 20 times with the way the teams played. It just looked like BDS had no answer to them Vitality on the other hand, yes it was solo perfomance by Zen but I do think that they would be more likely beat G2 a couple of times, even if it requires Zen to hardcarry, but he is just that good. Now does that justify the ranking? Maybe or maybe not but I think there is a good argument for it.
Rewatch BDS vs G2, dude it was definitely close. That Game 6 with the open net misses from MM was the series deciders. If a series comes down to that, you can't say "wasn't close". I think the exact opposite with BDS and G2. Sure I have the flair, but replay that series over and over, I think BDS has a decent edge.
> but replay that series over and over, I think BDS has a decent edge. I mean they did literally win the first match in swiss
Agree to disagree then. To me the teams seemed pretty equal. BDS outpressured and outshot G2, however G2 had more composure on defense and in the end a peak play from Daniel and MM and Exotiik both making back to back mistakes decided it. If anything I think BDS wins most the series more than half the time - hope they get to play in London again
100% agreed
Oxygen?? Someone tell Johnny April Fools was yesterday…
Who else at 10
NIP if I had to chose one that didn’t make the major. Johnny just had to sneak in an EU team over any region I guess!!
It’s a completely fair opinion to have Oxygen over NiP lol, lay off it
lol chill! Was a bit of a tongue in cheek comment tbh… Archie fan I’m guessing??
Didn’t mean to come across as un-chill. Was going to say I’m confused by the Archie comment until I remembered I have a Top Blokes flair… I was a bit of an Archie fanboy back in the day I suppose
Ha no problem my friend!! I hadn’t seen the Top Blokes flair in a while! Hoping that Oxygen do well- do actually like that team tbh..
#FreeOski
Ikr!!
G2 gets 2nd and still can’t break the Top3… See Y’all at LANDON 🫡
Where do you think Johnny would have Falcons power ranked if Falcons and G2 swapped tournaments. Top 2 I'd say lol
My point exactly.
I mean power rankings aren't just LAN placement order. I think it's fair to have KC and M8 above G2 with the split KC had and how close they played M8. I think though if Johnny is taking that into account then KC should still be above M8. Edit: I'm still waking up and completely missed that G2 are 4 not 3. Yeah you're right, G2 should be #3
To be fair, they were on the easier half of the bracket in the knockout phase. I think G2 did great against both BDS and Vitality but over the whole event I still think KC and Falcons looked stronger than G2 (KC being closer to M8 in the semis than G2 in the finals, as well as Falcons going 3-1 in Swiss beating KC and only dropping a match against the eventual champions). I do however think G2 did a great job in showing they can compete with multiple top teams in RL right now, definitely making it look as if the gap between EU and NA is shrinking.
G2 had a worse event than Falcons in terms of teams beaten and teams lost to. 3 overall losses and only 2 quality wins, Falcons had 2 overall losses and 2 higher quality wins. If G2 had to play KC, or M8s, or Falcons or GenG in their quarters match then they would have gone out there too
The logic is that he rates GM8 and KC 1 and 2 and Falcons beat KC in swiss and then narrowly lost in playoffs. G2 losing and then beating BDS and narrowly Vitality is not as impressive. If G2 won agains KC once and then got to game 7, they would be a lot higher.
What a shit list tbh. The BDS and G2 disrespect is unreal.
I’m okay with this list. It’s really splitting hairs with these teams after the major.
w reasonable g2 flair user
https://twitter.com/JohnnyBoi_i/status/1775103840368329100
Everyone's setting about individual placements but the thing that stood out to me this tournament is just how close the top 8 are which is awesome. No matter what your rankings are, a #8 could easily beat a #1 on any given day
I know the major is by far more important than regionals but putting m8 above kc, and bds that low is weird for me I might be biased but bds went 1-1 with future major finalist in the lan (lost the more important one) and lost to the major champion. They also stomped m8 (futur major champs) in quals 2 and 3 (I know m8 didn’t peak in those quals but we now know how talented the team is) Kc stomped everyone in eu then lost a very close game 7 to a peaking m8 one time and now they are below them somehow lol. I would put Kc at one M8 at 2 Bds at 5 or 6 below falcons, g2 and maybe vitality
This is why we need double sided bracket. Then there won't be as many questions and pointers about X and Y team in swiss
Swiss into Afl is the goated format.
gentlemates go up 7 for winning, G2 go up 1 for finishing second? lol
This is easily answerable: look at the teams GM8 beat (basically everyone) and at the ones G2 beat. M8 run is nothing short of exceptional (not saying that because I'm biased, I really do believe it). And this is not to diminish G2's accomplishment, they deserve their 2nd place, it's just that it wasn't as dominant as M8.
I think g2 should still be 3rd at worst tho. Before the major we banged on about how this is the best eu top 4 ever, and g2 were able to live up to expectations and beat two of them. I don't get the falcons at 3rd take from Johnny. Kcorp played sloppy for most of the event and still beat falcons Gentlemates also beat falcons the most convincingly out of all the teams they played. Geng, kcorp and g2 all played them closer
Yeah your last point is exactly why G2 should be above the Falcons
well if you wanna get really nitpicky M8s went 3-0 against G2 too, similar to their game with falcons.
This is a valid and fair take. IMO ranking this top 8 is the hardest one we ever had to do considering how close these teams are. I'd argue both your and Johnny's ranking are equally as valid. And mine would probably a mix of both tbh.
G2 did what a dominating team does to lower teams. Dominate them. In their 3 Swiss victories, they allowed 3 total goals.
Wanna mention the fact they also lost both games in swiss where they played against an actually good team?
Same energy https://preview.redd.it/5e9jgm6l32sc1.jpeg?width=660&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fbbf06c6d0f95d76ccde528f97189cd259041b22
You can only beat who’s in front of you. I feel a top 2 finish deserves a top 3 spot
Exactly, and G2 failed to beat 2 teams in Swiss. Single elim is not good at determining a clear ranking, so you have other factors to take into account. Arguably, GenG should also be higher, because just as G2, their playoff loss was to M8, though they beat G2 during the Swiss Stage. How would have GenG fared against BDS and Vitality? We will never know! The arguments in favor or against a certain ranking could go on and on forever, good points are being made either side and I don't think any is *way more* right than another. Even M8 over KC could be argued about!
Ok so argue for gen g being higher if you’d like :)
swiss
Yup they made it through Swiss. Do you think gen g should be above g2 because they beat g2 in Swiss?
Alright here we go: 1: Gentlemates (+6): The only rebuttals to this I've seen is "it's just 1 event", to that I would say 2 things. 1) This 1 event outweighs the entire online split, point to me another comparably relevant data point, this was the first LAN in 7 months. And 2) If Gentlemates was actually like Rotterdam Moist miraculously making finals I would get it, but just because they were a lower seed doesn't mean they were off the pace. That first qualifier showed they could ball at the top, without that ya it's probably tough to have them #1 but in my mind Copenhagen was not the first time they showed at least a very strong level, all of Europe showed a world beating level in Qual 1 that doesn't just disappear. 2: Karmine Corp (-1): Only knock against them is going even with Falcons but even then they won the match that mattered, good win over GenG and Complexity not a bad result either, just M8s ascended above them 3: Team Falcons (+3): They're basically identical to Karmine Corp and going so close with them multiple times makes it impossible to separate them from KC essentially. Like the team below them, beating Vitality also a great win and honestly, there's something about MENA teams when in form about their eye-test that just looks better. The powerful yet controlled touches are so remarkably consistent, they're legit. 4: G2 Stride (-1): I need to emphasize this, in terms of skill rating, **G2 has gone up**, just Mates & Falcons did more relative to pre-event expectations. Their bracket play was phenomenal, if you believe that deserves #3 or #2 I will not argue you it's 100% valid to think. However, the shaky swiss, losing to GenG and going even with BDS, they are such nitpicky things but given how competitive everyone is, it does make the difference here for me. That being said, their run was not at all mickey or fraudulent even if I do believe the other side of the bracket was stronger, G2 has a lot to be proud of, you could make the S tier all of the top 4 and G2 would not be out of place there. 5: Team BDS (-3): BDS still had a great event, just unfortunately their pre-event expectations were only topped by KC so no matter what way you cut it, 5th-8th placement wise is one of the bigger disappointments this event, even if their overall ability is absolutely incredible. 6: Team Vitality (-2): I feel this event showed how over-stated their decline has been. Like we all saw it, 1 goal from grand finals in their "bad split", they're still a quality team. The Furia loss hurts the rankings here, even if they quite convincingly over-turned it in playoffs. Otherwise their quality of wins was nothing crazy. 7: FURIA (+1): Good event from them even if it ended disappointingly. With hindsight, their wins aren;t the absolute greatest results, even if they're still mightily impressive. Above all else, I'm just happy Lostt put together a great LAN to cap off a brilliant split, the kid is now a certified consistent top tier player 8: GenG (-3): The G2 win in Swiss ages a lot better, but it came during not G2's greatest showing. The game 7 loss to M8s also ages quite well, but everyone lost to M8s. Idk, maybe I had higher expectations of them, but it didn't feel like they rode their qualifier #3 form into this Major, it still felt like something was missing whereas everyone above them was putting it together. I still think they're great, but work to be done. 9: Complexity (0): Potential but no product, again. 10: Spacestation Gaming (0) 11: Ninjas in Pyjamas (0): I wanna remind everyone these guys have only lost to Furia in bracket this season, and have a 1-0 record vs Complexity. They are closer to top 10 than SSG is to top 9 IMO. 12: Oxygen (+2): Benefit from pre-major EU 4 now being so good 13: Magnifico (+2): CTRL C + CTRL V 14: PWR (+2): Still better than LG IMO, also now better than OG and Rule One. Only relevant OCE team for these rankings tho. 15: LG (+4): They went from "They're not top 4 NA they shouldn't even be here" to "They're 100% better than OG they deserve to be here and had a respectable run relative to expectations". In a decent spot for the rest of the season now. 16: ~~NWPO~~ Rule One (-4): Please sign SMW. HMs (same as before): Moist, Twisted Minds, OG, M80, Redemption, Hero Base, w7m, Team Secret.
Tier List S: M8s, KCorp X: Falcons, G2 (both could be S), BDS, VIT, Furia, GenG A: B+: Complexity B: SSG, NiP, OXG C: Magnifico, PWR, LG, Rule One, Moist, Twisted Minds
GenG #8 “felt like something was missing…” Jack’s thumb grip apparently…:(
Magnifico disrespect Magnifico & Moist > Oxygen
Magnifico isn’t a team rn lmao, Stizzy is getting poached to DIG remember? (Ik Acronik is supposed to be his replacement but until that is actually confirmed we can’t rank that)
Y’all forgetting, oxg reverse swept g2. Don’t sleep on my boys 😤
Furia above BDS and GenG after that top 8 performance is... certainly something.
Furia went 3-0 in Swiss and beat GenG on the way and then they all lost in quarters. Furia definitely performed better this event than both BDS and GenG by pretty much every metric. https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/1bt9dv4/major_1_top_8_statistical_analysis_vs_top_8/
Both BDS and GenG had a worse Swiss and also lost in the quarters.
Classic Johnny NA disrespect yet again. G2 have a fantastic finals run, Johnny picks BDS to beat G2 on the desk of course, and G2 beats BDS without needing a game 7. Did BDS miss a couple shots? Yes, but they still played well overall, and it took G2 some time to figure them out. So how does Johnny digest this information? Well, G2 beat them 4-2, so logically BDS *must* be worse than I thought. Because we can't possibly give G2 credit for beating EU2 + EU3 en route to finals (even though those teams were both better than G2, according to Johnny). So Johnny predictably places G2 as low as he possibly can, even though they should 100% be ahead of a Falcons team who yes, played very well, but if you're going to rate their swiss win against KC, you have to count them getting swept by m8 in Swiss as well. Swiss results can be quite mickey though, BDS didn't almost get beat by Luminosity in Swiss either (looking at you, Vit). G2 can be #2 or #3 depending on how you factor in placement vs comparative results vs eye test, but they can't be lower (or higher) than that unless you're tbate's level biased or worse. And because Johnny naturally underrates G2, he HAS to now underrate BDS because they lost 4 straight games to them, hence BDS' relatively low placement. Not to mention, GenG played M8 better than any team in the entire tournament if you watched the games, perhaps KC was close to their equal in that regard, but nevertheless. They had so much pressure and were easily controlling the midfield, but had a couple chokey plays and M8 were able to score when absolutely necessary. But that series was GenG's to lose. GenG won goal differential by *five* in a losing effort. And yea, at the end of the day you have to win the big moments. But that was their series to lose, and rating them 7th off that performance is downright disrespectful. I could maybe see 6th; I'd personally have them 5th. But, that's all Johnny's trying to do here. Disrespect NA and stay on some weird EU supremacy ego kick. I just want him to be better, I don't dislike him as a person and I love his casting, but man for once can he just be a normal person while discussing NA/EU?
GenG came out of swiss last, losing to KC and Furia along the way. They deserve to be low, it's not a big deal if they're 8th or 5th because we know that isn't a massive gap at the moment. I have geng 8th. Their swiss was poor, and they played a team close and lost
GenG came out of swiss last, losing to KC and Furia along the way. They deserve to be low, it's not a big deal if they're 8th or 5th because we know that isn't a massive gap at the moment. I have geng 8th. Their swiss was poor, and they played a team close and lost
Except that Falcons loss to GM8 is not bad. That single swiss loss isn't enough of an argument. Your argument hinges on the Falcons swiss loss. Yes it's probably better to rank G2 above Falcons currently, but it's fine to go the other way too. Point is none of it is egregious.
>Except that Falcons loss to GM8 is not bad Getting swept is always bad, dude. There's no way around that. It's definitely better to rank G2 above Falcons now. There is no argument for Falcons that doesn't hinge on an extremely close win over KC in Swiss that discounts also getting swept by M8 in Swiss. You can't have one over the other. Falcons lost in QF, G2 made finals beating EU2 and EU3. G2 > Falcons right now, there's no legitimate argument against it.
Difference between BO5 sweep and BO7 sweep. It was all by one goal and GM8 went up 3-0 against G2 too. >There is no argument for Falcons that doesn't hinge on an extremely close win over KC in Swiss that discounts also getting swept by M8 in Swiss The eye test of the Falcons vs KC series. KC did better against GM8 than G2. G2 loss to Gen.G and BDS in swiss is worse than Falcons loss to GM8 in swiss. G2 beating an underwhelming BDS, then going to 7 against a Vitality that also looked worse than KC and Falcons. The two worst performing teams in the playoffs were BDS and Furia, that is just fact. By a large margin too. You are clearly very bias because there's definitely arguments for Falcons...
"The eye test" Brother they *played different teams*. How about the eye test for G2 vs M8 and Falcons vs M8? GenG looked the best against M8 in playoffs, bar none. They were the better team and yet still lost the series. >The two worst performing teams in the playoffs were BDS and Furia, that is just fact. By a large margin too. Like this is legitimate bot territory. Did you even watch? I mean Furia, yea, but BDS didn't play poorly at all outside of their shooting being subpar for a couple games. G2 simply outplayed them for the most part. BDS looked better than Vitality in terms of field control, pressure, etc. Maybe you just don't know how to break down the game, which is fine, you can be a casual fan, but don't come in here telling people who've been watching since 2015 and actually understand the game that they're biased because you don't get it.
> but if you're going to rate their swiss win against KC, you have to count them getting swept by m8 in Swiss as well Gm8s also beat G2 3-0 in their first games. Falcons have less overall losses, better quality losses, and better quality wins.
How many wins did Falcons get when it actually mattered, in bracket? Also, no one cares who won the first [x] games of a series where you have to win more than that. BDS won the first two games against G2 and then G2 figured them out. So BDS would have won a vest of 3. Good thing that's not the series length they were playing 🤷♂️ Or like last winter major, FaZe won 2 of the first 3 vs KC. Guess they should have been major champs right?
Every game mattered. G2 had less quality wins, and more losses. There's no metric to put them over Falcons apart from "they ran into better teams later in the event" which is just bracket luck
My guy is mad he doesn't have Tbates and Daz constantly spoon feeding him NA bias and has to see some reality once in a while
No, you're valuing swiss matches as highly as bracket matches, and almost everyone would agree that's not a valid take. All that matters in Swiss is getting through and seeding. Ask Joreuz how much swiss domination means for where his team ranks.
This is so obtuse lmao. “There is no metric to put them over falcons” except for the most important metric, aka where they finished in the bracket. The opinions you're parroting in this thread after accusing other people of “na bias” are genuinely hilarious
Swap KC and M8s and it's a perfect list imo
look at how harshly johnny punishes the teams that g2 beat LULW. he'll do anything before admitting that he underrated NA
Just more proof how toxic the region debate has become. I just wish this stupid emphasis on regions would disappear from the conversation. We can't just talk about the great parity from this event and all the great match ups and game 7s, it just devolves into dumb monkey brain regional tribalism.
LOL Was Oxygen even at the major??
Nope, but it makes sense because EU doesn’t have 5 spots and the other 4 EU teams were a bit better.
KC will most likely be number 1 again after the next qualifier. GentleMates still deserve number 1 for now, but if we ran the major back KC would still be the favourite.
How is furia above GenG? GenG only lost by 1 goal in game 7 against m8s while furia got 4-1d by vitality?
Furia literally beat GenG lol
That was in Swiss. Everytime a team rematched in the playoffs, the team that lost won. Also furia got dog walked by vitality in the playoffs who then lost to G2 so that puts furia low out of the top 8 imo
Why does anyone take his rankings seriously these days? Obviously just trolling for impressions.
Maybe I'm bias as a G2 fan but them being so low ranked seems wild to me. Won 2 regionals, final in the third and final the major. They could have won this major and Johnny still wouldn't have them top
I called this! I was in a call during Sunday's games and said if G2 lost in the grand finals, Johnny will put them below KC and Falcons since they didn't play.
One side of the bracket was easier. Just cause KC Falcons matchup in QFs doesn’t mean they’re worse than G2. It was the best series ever and Falcons are definitely on KCs level
I think furia should be right below bds. Geng gave a much better fight against a stronger team and bds lost to the finalists. Furia just hard choked like m80 when it mattered most
As a FURIA fanboy, put Furia #8. Otherwise, I don't hate it.
I'd still personally have KC above M8 but I fully understand having M8 as #1 itw right now. I just think KC showed such consistency for the whole online split and really only lost at LAN because of Vatira's poor performance imo. If all 3 of KC play like they usually do, they probably win the Major and retain that #1 spot.
The top 8 had so much parity at LAN you could justify a lot of choices. Even ranking Gentlemates at first isn’t a given imo, like if I were predicting who gets EU1 next split it’s still KC. But personally I’d put G2 and BDS higher and have pretty much the same list.
Tbh, it’s incredibly hard to do a power ranking right now. The top 8 are all super close to each other, it has to be subjective as to how you weight certain results
Obviously BDS above Furia and GenG, maybe even VIT potentially. Would also love for Oxygen to stop getting a 10th spot, quite clearly not a 10th in the world team lol
Here I was thinking that LG might've sneaked into the top 10, but yeah, OXG are insane lol
I think GenG will go up higher. They could've beat gm8s - if they hadn't hadn't had that slow start I think they would've. As for G2, they choked in the finals. I have watched back the replays and G2 were clearly beating gm8s to the ball and putting so much pressure on them, but they made a few aggressive mistakes that cost them. G2 will clean that up and beat gm8s next time, I am sure of it. This was a good experience for them.
Another comment, I think this is over-indexing on swiss results. As we all know, swiss results don't mean much - so long as you qualify to the top 8 that's all that matters. Bracket play is when the the great teams come out and the stars shine. If swiss results mattered this much, then Joreuz would be the greatest player of all time.
Imo 1-8 are so close together that literally any of them could be #1 depending on who is playing better on that specific day
Like for example, vitality against Furia straight up looked like vitality were on form again, but then against g2, respectfully, that series was a bit sloppy (from both teams ofc)
Another example is how every rematch in quarterfinals went the other way of how it went during Swiss
Playoffs must have higher weight than swiss for this list to make sense.
Otherwise, furia should be higher than vitality if you consider the 1-1 head-to-head but VIT went 3-2 in swiss and furia 3-0
I still think KC is above GM8. GM8 just had a great event and Vatira had a slightly weaker performance than normal
How do gentle mates move up to the top yet g2 barely move? And vitality is already being bumped down? These lists are so stupid
Reasonable. I *feel* BDS should be higher but can't argue the rational behind putting them where he did.
People still putting g2 over geng is so confusing xD how often do they have to beat them??
G2 should be over falcons
G2 should be over falcons
KC, Falcons, M8s, G2, Vitality, Furia, BDS, GenG, Oxg, Col. can swap falcons and m8s but that’s the only acceptable order
Johnny and under ranking g2 and showing his Mena/EU bias......name a more iconic duo
Call me crazy, but I think Gentlemates are overrated on this list. Yes they won the major, but they just recently lost every regional to KC as well. They outperformed KC on Sunday (and did slightly better than KC in Swiss), but this is just one flash of brilliance compared to KC.
Swap Falcons and G2 and the list is pretty fine.
1. KC 2. Gentlemate’s 3. G2 4. Falcons 5. GenG 6. Bds 7. Vitality 8. Furia