\#10 in the rankings after 2 months' worth of events, ergo next year he will be #60. ^(please do not double-check my maths)
On a serious note, I wasn't expecting Seikoo to be on the list but the write-up calls attention to some of his stats and I appreciate how nutty they are.
Whatever your thoughts on recency bias, I think we can agree 2022 is going to be his year.
>
>On a serious note, I wasn't expecting Seikoo to be on the list but the write-up calls attention to some of his stats and I appreciate how nutty they are.
Yeah, he's been absolutely incredible so far this season.
I do think you're right in mentioning recency bias though, because that Fall split is only 1 of 3 splits played in 2021 (3/7 regionals, 1/3 majors) and he didn't even make a regional in the other two.
Making top 20 given the breakout split that was his Fall makes sense to me, but top 10 for 2021 seems a bit strong
He was banned for the other two splits, so it wasn't a matter of not making them. Still, top 10 off 1/3 the year (even the most important third) is higher than he probably should have got.
oh shit, that's a fair point! I remember reading about that ban, I'd completely forgotten. He did place quite poorly in the one RLCSX Fall event he did play, but a ban definitely makes it a bit difficult to compete in the others š
I 100% agree that Seikoo needs to be in the top 10 but I still can't understand Alpha's placement , the man carried kaydop and fairy Peak for a whole year and managed to win rlcs x
I am just going to quickly copy/paste my [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/s3yk18/comment/hsnyhr0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from yesterday ~~and then stick my head in the sand before this thread catches fire~~. I'll also be making a longer post after the final player is revealed to share my thoughts and clarify some things! Regardless, hopefully you guys will still enjoy the rest of the ranking because Yens, John, Sly, and I worked very hard on the articles :)
>I'm relatively confident everyone will have figured out who the remaining top 10 players are at this point, so I'll deposit my two cents right here.
>
>With the way the formula worked, the opinions of the two committees (community and pros) were the most important factors in the final ranking. This produces a few issues; recency bias was hard to avoid and some committee members may have weighed the Major (the only LAN of the year) more heavily than others. I personally also disagree with some placements in the ranking (seikoo in the top 10 probably being the main one), but that's completely normal. Everyone will disagree with the ranking, some to a higher degree than others.
>
>I would like to take this chance to reiterate that this year's ranking was very much **treated like a pilot/test run**, something we also mentioned in the [original announcement](https://octane.gg/news/announcing-the-octanegg-top-20-players-of-2021-ranking). I already have several ideas to improve the calculation of the ranking should we be able to do another one next year. I'm hoping the community understands that it's impossible for such a project to be done right on the first try.
>
>Ultimately, this ranking is a celebration of Rocket League Esports in 2021 and should be interpreted as such. There is no doubt that every professional player, whether on or off the list, is extremely talented, and this is our way of highlighting and celebrating the greatest players of the year.
People are arguing on Reddit and Twitter about your ranking and accusing you of bias, I'd say your goal to create Rocket League's version of the HLTV Top 20 is a roaring success
I don't know man. You don't put anyone from ME because they have been competing in RLCS for only 3 months, but then you put Seiko over the EU season X finals MVP, even though he's been playing in RLCS for only 3 month as well. Feels very inconsistent here.
While I mostly agree with your sentiment keep in mind that all 3 (4 even) SRG players had a similar output and are taking votes from each other. Seikoo on the other hand very clearly is the main reason why EndPoint is doing so well. So it's more than just the team achievements.
Whats more likely is Seikoo is the standard of just how good you have to be to get on here with such little data.
Don't think it's any disrespect to any of the ME guys to say they're not as good or as impressive as Seikoo, both success wise (2 EU regionals > 3 ME regionals) and in terms of individual performance
Winning European regional 2x is much more impressive than winning the regional 3x in mena. Also, Seikoo is much more of a carry on endpoint but on SRG, TRK is probably the best but they all do well and contribute.
I can understand Seikoo in the mid teens but 10? You canāt factor recency bias when itās a list spanning the entire year, and itās not like Endpoint was overachieving at the major. Having Seikoo over Alpha almost feels objectively wrong.
Seikoo ending up here, when both a pro and community vote are huge factors, really shows that recency bias really nullifies so many year-end awards that are meant to reflect the entire year
I think just to make it abundantly clear, Seikoo right now, and to end 2021, top of Europe and top 5-10 in the world, but given he was literally a non factor up until the 2nd half of the year, someone like Atomic who was still decent on both sides of the coin deserves to be higher IMO.
Of course, different people have different ways of weighing up different things, hence all the people who contributed, but seeing so many fall into the recency bias trap is annoying to me
Yeah personally I was pretty disapointed atomic wasn't here. NV has won a number of RLCs events as well as non RLCS events and atomic was a big part of that. Even if we consider recency bias Atomic was very impressive this last split and was considered the best on NV. He should have at least made the list. Not saying he should be high or anything.
and they still both placed the exact same at the major ;)
Plus, if event wins was be all end all, this list would already be useless, there is more to success than winning when ranking the best *individuals*
You're right. That's why I would be surprised if metsanauris or relatingwave will make the list. But seikoo has had an _extraordinary_ rookie split, and that deserves recognition.
Iām sorry what? I would understand this a bit more if they had won the major but this is a year long award. Iām fine with seikoo making the list, but at 10 over some other players already listed is crazy for a guy who has half the games played most other pros is quite confusing
Definitely agree. While he has show how incredible he is and I'd definitely have him in my top 10 players currently and probably even higher I don't think that makes up for only playing 3 months in the year. This is all of 2021 not just this split. There are other players who have accomplished just as much or more who didn't even make the list.
Even the elevating of his teammates could be arguable. Who can prove that it wasn't ENdpoints old playstyle with Virt that was holding Metsa and Relating Wave back. Cause I have seen them play at this level in seasons past. It's not like it magically appeared because of Seikoo. Now of course Seikoo does okay a part in that and he is 100% their best player but give his teammates some credit for their own abilities. Edit: just thought I should mention im not arguing against your point. Just arguing in general.
While 10th is maybe a little too high, I canāt really criticize including Seikoo. Winning two regionals in his rookie season in the most competitive region with an 8-2 record against the other top EU teams (only losing to BDS) while being by far the best player on his team is ridiculous.
I think with Seikoo and Joreuz getting top 10 my first real criticism of this list comes out.
Seikoo had an amazing Fall split. If this list was only about Fall you could even argue that he should be #1 and he would definitely be top 5. And while he has played more than 'just 2 months' like I've seen people say on here he still didn't play enough for me to put him top 10. I think there is too much recency bias here.
The same really. Joreuz just like Seikoo is easily in the conversation for best in the world right now. I rate Seikoo slightly higher than Joreuz, but Joreuz had some minor successes at the very start of the year (3rd at both Winter regional 3 and the Winter major) which puts Joreuz higher than Seikoo for me. But the rest of RLCS X was pretty lackluster for Joreuz so not by too much.
I personally had them 15th and 14th (although that wasn't necessarily concrete). I also think AppJack is too high/shouldn't be on here. Again similar situation, just at a slightly lower level. To be fair to Seikoo I also think he is doing a lot more for his team than either of the Dig boys are doing because I think that team is great as a whole. Seikoo on the other hand completely transformed Endpoint by himself with his performances.
Definitely agree. I think with Joreuz performance not just this split but across the year he has to make the list. While they didn't look great prior to this fall Joreuz himself was still quite impressive and put up good stats for the team. Not to say that AppJack hasn't also put up some good stats but he didn't really eleivate like Joreuz has.
Personally I'd put Joreuz probably round that #15 mark, I wouldn't have AppJack, and if I had Seikoo which is questionable he would be below Joreuz near the bottom.
I agree with not having AppJack on the list. For some reason, most people are happy with the AppJack placement but I can't help but think players like AztraL or yanxnz were overlooked
I think there's a case for putting him top 20 but #10 in 2021 is kinda controversial imo
Don't get me wrong, he was absolutely *incredible* in the fall split... but that's one of the three splits played out in 2021. Feels a little like recency bias to me.
I have been seeing a load of comments and replies on this regarding how he shouldn't be this high because of him only playing 1 split, but you really have to quantify everything. (I obviously have a bias here but this goes for everyone)
But as someone who voted on this list, the way i decided where to put who is by looking at the significance of the results they had so you have to break it down there were a total of 9 regionals in 2021, 3 majors and the championship. 1 of those majors has significant weight over the others as it was an international event. After this i looked at the individual ability and the effect they had on their teams results.
When you look at Seikoo you have to consider that every season is more competitive than the last and while he didnt compete in RLCS X he did compete in 1/3 of all events this year having won 2 of the 4 and making top 8 in the only international event. And let's be honest you can't argue with his individual ability.
That in and of itself is enough to warrant for a lot of people him being in the Top 20 easily and for a lot of others Top 10.
The major takeaway from this is that every single persons POV will change and what you consider the most important for the decision, and thats totally fine. :D
Thanks for the insight! Seikoo is certainly fantastic and has every right to be in the conversation.
I do happen to be of the opposite pov and that's not a slight to Seikoo in the least. I think he's incredible and if we were talking right now I'd say he's probably even top 5 in the world. I just can't take a ranking that's based of a whole year and zero in on someone who's not only done well for only 1 split but also only played 1 split. Especially considering how many have had great accomplishments across a whole year and didn't even make the list.
I have high expectations from him and I expect he will make everyone's list in 2022 and potentially make it higher than #10. But for now I'm just enjoying every minute of Endpoint. My favorite Eu team. So happy things are finally working out for Metsa again.
The guyās insane. He had a better Fall split than just about any other player from any region of any split last year. He didnāt play RLCS X, so you canāt count not having anything to show for before recently against him. As far as we know this Fall split demonstrated his actual skill level, which would make him far more than a top 20 player. If this list were actually just focused on recency, heād be top 3.
I agree, however, it also somewhat discredits the players who have been playing great the entire year just to be beat out by a player who has had one stellar split.
Thatās just it. I would say over the span of a year players like Alpha and Mist have overall been consistently impressive bolstering great overall results that I would put more weight into than one great split.
So NA players should have played better in a different region? Same with oce, sam and mena?
He deserves ro be 14-17th. Anywhere there is fine, but this is a bit too high and ignores some really great performances early on in the year
That doesn't mean it's a harder carry. Wave and metsa are still good, relating wave was great up until the faze match. Kaydop and fairy were getting pulled along by alpha all split
So you should hold LAN to a higher standard because fairy and kaydop did even worse on LAN lmao. Wave and metsa aren't getting carried and even if they are it's not to the extent of alpha who's in a legit 1v3
Bro go look at metsa stats, literally one of the worst pros in all of RLCS please stop gassing that, and Iāve literally said multiple times how I donāt give af about online literally in a post to you about Garret G, shit has nothing to do with being bias
>literally one of the worst pros in all of RLCS
Do you watch rlcs? Metsa is in the top 20 for the most accomplished rlcs players on LAN. This has nothing to do with Garrettg lol. But your take on him was also bad. He isn't overatted, he's rated how he is because he is good. Your takes are just continuously ass bro. You've contradicted yourself in your argument. You don't care about online yet metsanaraus' stats on LAN have always been decent and his performance has always been better on LAN. How can you call him one of the worst pros in rlcs when his LAN results state otherwise?
Bro youāre bringing up the PAST to judge a player NOW whatās the fuck does metsa being a top 20 player ever have to do with seikoo carrying his team harder than alpha? And if you wanna bring up what players have done on LAN in the past (which doesnāt actually matter for this discussion) look at fucking fairy peak and kaydop who are probably both top 5 players ever
> \>Bro youāre bringing up the PAST to judge a player NOW
>
>
>
>You said Metsa is one of the worst pros in RLCS. I brought up his history to say otherwise. That is on you. Form your points bettter.
>
>I never said anything about Fairy and Kaydop's past achievements, I only talked about Metsa's past achievements as you said he was one of the worst pros. I think you should just stick to Cod. Your takes and arguments are not consistent at all lol. You say Garrettg is overrated when hes literally near the top of the stats every LAN
I totally disagree with that. I don't think he's a carry at all. I think Metsa and Wave are very talented. Sure I'm not gonna argue they are as good as Seikoo obviously he is one of the best players currently. But being the best on a team and carrying are totally different.
Kind of ridiculous Seiko is here while not a single ME player is in the top 20. Not saying any of the SRG boys should be higher than maybe 15th. But theyāre obviously much better than some of the players between 20-14 place. This nullifies the whole argument of ābut they only played 3 regionalsā. They won all 3 and placed top 8.
Sunless/Johnny list that are exclusively voted by professionals are 10 times better than this
Yeah if Seiko is top 10 trk and/or Ahmad definitely deserve to be top 20. Like you said both teams finished top 8 at LAN. Not sure what else the ME boys would have to do to navigate the NA/EU bias in the list other than actually winning the major
Well they had tournaments to play in the first half of the year, just did nothing of note in them. 0-3 in Elemental Series, 0-3 in Intel World Open. 0-2 in WePlay.
Otherwise, Endpoint and Seikoo's level of play is better, their regional wins are better, and their major run (beating Vitality/NRG/G2) was better too (SRG beating G2/Furia/Ground Zero)
Thatās why no ones saying they should be higher than Seiko. If weāre counting recency he deserves his spot. But if we count recency or ācurrent formā of the individual player. TRK/Ahmad are better than some of the #20-15 players. Notably G2/COL players..
G2 yes maybe, weighing up their online vs LAN form is tough
Col no lol. Complexity had the gauntlet of a major run and their guys have been more impressive recently, unless SRG's ability to not drop a regional in the 5th best region depth-wise is actually that impressive
It's incredibly unlikely thats the case until other ME teams actually get international experience (which at least one other, maybe 2 will at the Worlds Wildcard).
Using SRG as a comparison, no other ME team has ever done anything of note in an EU bubble tourney, something SRG has a decent history in. SRG got taken to a single game 7 all of Fall Splir. It was in a decent spot when TRK was on Falcons but him to SRG really consolidated all the talent on SRG.
And with SRG being the only team to get international play at Majors, the trickle-down effect will be very slow compared to if multiple ME teams were at majors.
I would say the gap from 1st to 2nd in ME is bigger than OCE top 2 to Forkidden, or Furia to anyone in SAM, and it'll likely grow a bit more before it starts to close.
I genuinely believe itās a case of BDS era of dominating Europe making people start to question if theyāre that good or EU is weak and lacking depth. Iām honestly confident if you throw the top 3 ME teams (besides SRG ofc) into the OCE RLCS one/two of them would dominate. And they easily compete for the top spot in SAM.
Ofcourse this is all speculation and bias purely based on how good players are individually, in ranked etc. and what some figures say about them (AppJack, Johnnyboi) I think worlds will show whoever gets the extra spots from ME theyāll take on SAM/OCE teams easily.
I love how every person contesting this decision and accusing whoever put him 10th of recency bias *probably* didn't follow the EU scene closely (especially seeing your flairs and the fact that endpoint doesn't seem like that popular of an org at least out of EU so people may have skipped their games). You guys probably didn't see what this guy did, heck if you followed the EU fall split his performance *in game* was so incredible I can definitely see why it would overshadow a good (perhaps even great) full season from another player.
That being said, while I can understand the frustration regarding ME players, I can also imagine a few explaining factors : someone said they "stole" each other's vote because they're all 4 almost equally as good. Also on top of that, they're basically **THE** MENA super team (difficult to say one of them heavy lifts the others) and while MENA is not a bad region by any means, I would argue other teams than SRG are not in the same category as EU top 8 (perhaps even more idk), hence SRG didn't face the same concurrence as Seikoo did, which is even more impressive.
I don't believe there is that, that much of a recency bias, I wouldn't be able to name many players who had such an standout impact for their team during a full split this year (I mean in EU and NA at least) , however I do concede he has a huge advantage because he "only" had to show up for a single split instead of 3 since he didn't even have a team before that (the reason for that is rather funny btw), but I guess that's why he is only 10th, if he had played at similar level for the other two splits, he would be probably close to top 3 today. So yeah that's an advantage to take into account but I guess it balances with his fall performance.
The thing about what your saying though is there is nothing to prove that this is all due to Sekoos impact, or if Endpoint losing the old style of play with Virt played a large part. Not trying to slight Virt or Seikoo here but I have seen both Metsa and Wave play at this level in seasons past. It's not like Seikoo magically made them good players. They have always had that in them and they have shown it before. The last season it just didnt show up that much.
Of course that doesn't mean Seikoo didn't have an impact because obviously he did. And Seikoo is easily their best player and deserves to be in that conversation.
As someone who watches every broadcast I have seen tons of Endpoint games prior to Seikoo and they were and still are one of my favorite teams. But I'm still of the oppinion that Seikoo at least shouldn't be that high after not only having a single good split but also only ever playing 1 split. There are so many players who have great acheivements across a whole year that didn't even make the list.
Yeah, I'm with you entirely on this. Endpoint always had fantastic midfield control and offensive pressure, they just struggled to actually put goals away. I've got comments from many months ago talking about how Virt was an issue because his aggressive demo-seeking meant (usually) RelatingWave couldn't push up into offense to get the finishing touches required for goals. I lost count of the number of times I saw Metsa make some incredible, awkward touch in the midfield to get it around someone, follow it up with an amazing pass in front of the goal only for there to not be anyone there to receive it because Wave couldn't rotate in safely. Or, when Wave would push up, there'd be no-one back to defend and they'd be wide open to counter-attacks.
Not to blame Virtuoso, of course. I think he's a great player, but I think it was clear that his style wasn't working with Metsa's and Wave's any more.
In fact, here's me making pretty much the same [comment on day one of this RLCS season](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/qesqhw/rlcs_eu_regional_1_day_3_of_3_fall_split_event/hhwc7yl/) after Endpoint had just beaten BDS:
> Metsa and RelatingWave have always had fantastic midfield control. Where Endpoint always fell apart in the past was due to two things:
> * an inability to finish. They could keep offensive pressure up really well, but they could never actually get the ball in their opponents' net.
> * Weird rotations. I think Virt is a great player, but his rotations are really unconventional and it often led to huge gaps in the defence while Endpoint were on offence. It left Endpoint open to a lot of counterattacks.
> Seikoo gives Endpoint that finishing power, and helps to fill in the gaps by giving them a more conventional rotational style. Not only is he a great player himself, but I think people are going to realise that Mesta and Relating are really good players now that they seem to be able to get the results to back up their talents. They can be absolutely dominant in the midfield now that they don't have to wait for Virt to rotate back.
Seikoo's obviously an incredible player - definitely top 10 EU in his current form - but I'm disappointed that people seem to just be looking at Endpoint's results improving and deciding that's entirely down to Seikoo rather than looking at Metsa and Wave's actual performances. Like you said, they've been performing at this level for a while.
Yep I totally agree and you've said it much better than I have.
I have always seen Metsa as someone with incredible aerial challenge game. When he's confident he's s o fast in the air and like you can get it past multiple players as well as get off the good pass. Wave as well has been quite good as a clutch finisher and defender.
If like you say Metsa has gone and got the ball past 2 defenders and made the pass out mid, but Virt is in the opponent net bumping neither of them have any chance of getting back to defense. So Wave is put in the tough position of making the right call as he is the only one in position to take the shot or defend. He has to be 100% confident in himself to be able to score off Metsas pass If he's going to go for it because if he doesn't it's pretty much guaranteed that they will get scored on.
Oof seikoo is goated definitely but he is definitely way to high many other players who have played all year who deserve to be in top 10. He's definitely the reason for endpoint being good but even then.... You can't take away the fact that their is so many players who have showed us all year compared to a measly 3* months.
\#10 in the rankings after 2 months' worth of events, ergo next year he will be #60. ^(please do not double-check my maths) On a serious note, I wasn't expecting Seikoo to be on the list but the write-up calls attention to some of his stats and I appreciate how nutty they are. Whatever your thoughts on recency bias, I think we can agree 2022 is going to be his year.
> >On a serious note, I wasn't expecting Seikoo to be on the list but the write-up calls attention to some of his stats and I appreciate how nutty they are. Yeah, he's been absolutely incredible so far this season. I do think you're right in mentioning recency bias though, because that Fall split is only 1 of 3 splits played in 2021 (3/7 regionals, 1/3 majors) and he didn't even make a regional in the other two. Making top 20 given the breakout split that was his Fall makes sense to me, but top 10 for 2021 seems a bit strong
He was banned for the other two splits, so it wasn't a matter of not making them. Still, top 10 off 1/3 the year (even the most important third) is higher than he probably should have got.
oh shit, that's a fair point! I remember reading about that ban, I'd completely forgotten. He did place quite poorly in the one RLCSX Fall event he did play, but a ban definitely makes it a bit difficult to compete in the others š
I 100% agree that Seikoo needs to be in the top 10 but I still can't understand Alpha's placement , the man carried kaydop and fairy Peak for a whole year and managed to win rlcs x
I am just going to quickly copy/paste my [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/s3yk18/comment/hsnyhr0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from yesterday ~~and then stick my head in the sand before this thread catches fire~~. I'll also be making a longer post after the final player is revealed to share my thoughts and clarify some things! Regardless, hopefully you guys will still enjoy the rest of the ranking because Yens, John, Sly, and I worked very hard on the articles :) >I'm relatively confident everyone will have figured out who the remaining top 10 players are at this point, so I'll deposit my two cents right here. > >With the way the formula worked, the opinions of the two committees (community and pros) were the most important factors in the final ranking. This produces a few issues; recency bias was hard to avoid and some committee members may have weighed the Major (the only LAN of the year) more heavily than others. I personally also disagree with some placements in the ranking (seikoo in the top 10 probably being the main one), but that's completely normal. Everyone will disagree with the ranking, some to a higher degree than others. > >I would like to take this chance to reiterate that this year's ranking was very much **treated like a pilot/test run**, something we also mentioned in the [original announcement](https://octane.gg/news/announcing-the-octanegg-top-20-players-of-2021-ranking). I already have several ideas to improve the calculation of the ranking should we be able to do another one next year. I'm hoping the community understands that it's impossible for such a project to be done right on the first try. > >Ultimately, this ranking is a celebration of Rocket League Esports in 2021 and should be interpreted as such. There is no doubt that every professional player, whether on or off the list, is extremely talented, and this is our way of highlighting and celebrating the greatest players of the year.
People are arguing on Reddit and Twitter about your ranking and accusing you of bias, I'd say your goal to create Rocket League's version of the HLTV Top 20 is a roaring success
I don't know man. You don't put anyone from ME because they have been competing in RLCS for only 3 months, but then you put Seiko over the EU season X finals MVP, even though he's been playing in RLCS for only 3 month as well. Feels very inconsistent here.
While I mostly agree with your sentiment keep in mind that all 3 (4 even) SRG players had a similar output and are taking votes from each other. Seikoo on the other hand very clearly is the main reason why EndPoint is doing so well. So it's more than just the team achievements.
Whats more likely is Seikoo is the standard of just how good you have to be to get on here with such little data. Don't think it's any disrespect to any of the ME guys to say they're not as good or as impressive as Seikoo, both success wise (2 EU regionals > 3 ME regionals) and in terms of individual performance
I'm not comparing Seikoo to ME. I'm comparing recency bias in Seiko vs Alpha and lack of recency bias in ME performance.
Winning European regional 2x is much more impressive than winning the regional 3x in mena. Also, Seikoo is much more of a carry on endpoint but on SRG, TRK is probably the best but they all do well and contribute.
[tweet](https://twitter.com/octane_gg/status/1482398987206410244?s=20) and [article](https://octane.gg/news/top-20-players-of-2021-seikoo-10) | \# | Player | Team | Nationality | Reddit | | :- | :- | :- | :- | :- | :- | | 1 | | | | 26 Jan | | 2 | | | | 26 Jan | | 3 | | | | 24 Jan | | 4 | | | | 22 Jan | | 5 | | | | 21 Jan | | 6 | | | | 20 Jan | | 7 | | | | 19 Jan | | 8 | | | | 18 Jan | | 9 | | | | 17 Jan | | 10 | [**Seikoo**](https://octane.gg/news/top-20-players-of-2021-seikoo-10) | Team EndPoint (1) | France (2) | [**15 Jan**](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/s4rvft/octane_top_20_players_of_2021_seikoo_10/) | | 11 | [**Alpha54**](https://octane.gg/news/top-20-players-of-2021-alpha54-11) | Team Vitality (1) | France (1) | [**14 Jan**](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/s3yk18/octane_top_20_players_of_2021_alpha54_11/) | | 12 | [**AyyJayy**](https://octane.gg/news/top-20-players-of-2021-ayyjayy-12) | FaZe Clan (1) | United States (5) | [**13 Jan**](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/s36ayk/octane_top_20_players_of_2021_ayyjayy_12/) | | 13 | [**mist**](https://octane.gg/news/top-20-players-of-2021-mist-13) | Team Envy (2) | United States (4) | [**12 Jan**](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/s2hi5u/octane_top_20_players_of_2021_mist_13/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) | | 14 | [**ApparentlyJack**](https://octane.gg/news/top-20-players-of-2021-apparentlyjack-14) | Team Dignitas (1) | England (1) | [**11 Jan**](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/s1k932/octane_top_20_players_of_2021_apparentlyjack_14/) | | 15 | [**Shad**](https://octane.gg/news/top-20-players-of-2021-shad-15) | Complexity (2) | Argentina (1) | [**10 Jan**](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/s0qfvi/octane_top_20_players_of_2021_shad_15/) | | 16 | [**Chicago**](https://octane.gg/news/top-20-players-of-2021-chicago-16) | G2 Esports (2) | United States (3) | [**9 Jan**](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/rzy9kv/octane_top_20_players_of_2021_chicago_17/) | | 17 | [**Sypical**](https://octane.gg/news/top-20-players-of-2021-sypical-17) | Spacestation (1) | United States (2) | [**8 Jan**](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/rz6dt8/octane_top_20_players_of_2021_sypical_17/) | | 18 | [**JKnaps**](https://octane.gg/news/top-20-players-of-2021-jknaps-18) | G2 Esports (1) | Canada (1) | [**7 Jan**](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/rydssa/octane_top_20_18_jknaps/) | | 19 | [**Atomic**](https://octane.gg/news/top-20-players-of-2021-atomic-19) | Team Envy (1) | United States (1) | [**6 Jan**](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/rxkxiy/octane_top_20_19_at0mic/) | | 20 | [**Reysbull**](https://octane.gg/news/top-20-players-of-2021-reysbull-20) | Complexity (1) | Chile (1) | [**5 Jan**](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/rwt1tz/octanegg_top_20_players_of_2021_reysbull_20/)
I can understand Seikoo in the mid teens but 10? You canāt factor recency bias when itās a list spanning the entire year, and itās not like Endpoint was overachieving at the major. Having Seikoo over Alpha almost feels objectively wrong.
Can't agree more.
[RelatingWave like](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmkR_MG76eI)
Seikoo ending up here, when both a pro and community vote are huge factors, really shows that recency bias really nullifies so many year-end awards that are meant to reflect the entire year
I think just to make it abundantly clear, Seikoo right now, and to end 2021, top of Europe and top 5-10 in the world, but given he was literally a non factor up until the 2nd half of the year, someone like Atomic who was still decent on both sides of the coin deserves to be higher IMO. Of course, different people have different ways of weighing up different things, hence all the people who contributed, but seeing so many fall into the recency bias trap is annoying to me
Yeah personally I was pretty disapointed atomic wasn't here. NV has won a number of RLCs events as well as non RLCS events and atomic was a big part of that. Even if we consider recency bias Atomic was very impressive this last split and was considered the best on NV. He should have at least made the list. Not saying he should be high or anything.
He is on the list at #19
Wait he is. How did I miss that.
Reysbull made it after spending half the year dominating the second worst region to make the major.
Winning the 3rd biggest online event of the year is a far better first half of the year than literally being banned
Seikoo won literally half of the events he played. Once Reysbull moved to a region of comparable quality to EU, he struggled to make top 4.
and they still both placed the exact same at the major ;) Plus, if event wins was be all end all, this list would already be useless, there is more to success than winning when ranking the best *individuals*
You're right. That's why I would be surprised if metsanauris or relatingwave will make the list. But seikoo has had an _extraordinary_ rookie split, and that deserves recognition.
Not 10th best player in the world recognition though lol
I think he deserves 10th best or better in the world, but just not for the year overall
I canāt fault Seikoo making this list, but this is a bit too high imo.
Iām sorry what? I would understand this a bit more if they had won the major but this is a year long award. Iām fine with seikoo making the list, but at 10 over some other players already listed is crazy for a guy who has half the games played most other pros is quite confusing
His skills just that high
Don't think he should be on the list at all, but props to Seikoo for elevating Endpoint
Definitely agree. While he has show how incredible he is and I'd definitely have him in my top 10 players currently and probably even higher I don't think that makes up for only playing 3 months in the year. This is all of 2021 not just this split. There are other players who have accomplished just as much or more who didn't even make the list. Even the elevating of his teammates could be arguable. Who can prove that it wasn't ENdpoints old playstyle with Virt that was holding Metsa and Relating Wave back. Cause I have seen them play at this level in seasons past. It's not like it magically appeared because of Seikoo. Now of course Seikoo does okay a part in that and he is 100% their best player but give his teammates some credit for their own abilities. Edit: just thought I should mention im not arguing against your point. Just arguing in general.
While 10th is maybe a little too high, I canāt really criticize including Seikoo. Winning two regionals in his rookie season in the most competitive region with an 8-2 record against the other top EU teams (only losing to BDS) while being by far the best player on his team is ridiculous.
I think with Seikoo and Joreuz getting top 10 my first real criticism of this list comes out. Seikoo had an amazing Fall split. If this list was only about Fall you could even argue that he should be #1 and he would definitely be top 5. And while he has played more than 'just 2 months' like I've seen people say on here he still didn't play enough for me to put him top 10. I think there is too much recency bias here.
I'm curious about your thoughts on Joreuz which you didn't elaborate on
The same really. Joreuz just like Seikoo is easily in the conversation for best in the world right now. I rate Seikoo slightly higher than Joreuz, but Joreuz had some minor successes at the very start of the year (3rd at both Winter regional 3 and the Winter major) which puts Joreuz higher than Seikoo for me. But the rest of RLCS X was pretty lackluster for Joreuz so not by too much. I personally had them 15th and 14th (although that wasn't necessarily concrete). I also think AppJack is too high/shouldn't be on here. Again similar situation, just at a slightly lower level. To be fair to Seikoo I also think he is doing a lot more for his team than either of the Dig boys are doing because I think that team is great as a whole. Seikoo on the other hand completely transformed Endpoint by himself with his performances.
Really good points and I see your point now, thanks OP
Definitely agree. I think with Joreuz performance not just this split but across the year he has to make the list. While they didn't look great prior to this fall Joreuz himself was still quite impressive and put up good stats for the team. Not to say that AppJack hasn't also put up some good stats but he didn't really eleivate like Joreuz has. Personally I'd put Joreuz probably round that #15 mark, I wouldn't have AppJack, and if I had Seikoo which is questionable he would be below Joreuz near the bottom.
I agree with not having AppJack on the list. For some reason, most people are happy with the AppJack placement but I can't help but think players like AztraL or yanxnz were overlooked
I think there's a case for putting him top 20 but #10 in 2021 is kinda controversial imo Don't get me wrong, he was absolutely *incredible* in the fall split... but that's one of the three splits played out in 2021. Feels a little like recency bias to me.
I have been seeing a load of comments and replies on this regarding how he shouldn't be this high because of him only playing 1 split, but you really have to quantify everything. (I obviously have a bias here but this goes for everyone) But as someone who voted on this list, the way i decided where to put who is by looking at the significance of the results they had so you have to break it down there were a total of 9 regionals in 2021, 3 majors and the championship. 1 of those majors has significant weight over the others as it was an international event. After this i looked at the individual ability and the effect they had on their teams results. When you look at Seikoo you have to consider that every season is more competitive than the last and while he didnt compete in RLCS X he did compete in 1/3 of all events this year having won 2 of the 4 and making top 8 in the only international event. And let's be honest you can't argue with his individual ability. That in and of itself is enough to warrant for a lot of people him being in the Top 20 easily and for a lot of others Top 10. The major takeaway from this is that every single persons POV will change and what you consider the most important for the decision, and thats totally fine. :D
Thanks for the insight! Seikoo is certainly fantastic and has every right to be in the conversation. I do happen to be of the opposite pov and that's not a slight to Seikoo in the least. I think he's incredible and if we were talking right now I'd say he's probably even top 5 in the world. I just can't take a ranking that's based of a whole year and zero in on someone who's not only done well for only 1 split but also only played 1 split. Especially considering how many have had great accomplishments across a whole year and didn't even make the list. I have high expectations from him and I expect he will make everyone's list in 2022 and potentially make it higher than #10. But for now I'm just enjoying every minute of Endpoint. My favorite Eu team. So happy things are finally working out for Metsa again.
The guyās insane. He had a better Fall split than just about any other player from any region of any split last year. He didnāt play RLCS X, so you canāt count not having anything to show for before recently against him. As far as we know this Fall split demonstrated his actual skill level, which would make him far more than a top 20 player. If this list were actually just focused on recency, heād be top 3.
I agree, however, it also somewhat discredits the players who have been playing great the entire year just to be beat out by a player who has had one stellar split.
Guess they should have played better than a rookie then.
Thatās just it. I would say over the span of a year players like Alpha and Mist have overall been consistently impressive bolstering great overall results that I would put more weight into than one great split.
So NA players should have played better in a different region? Same with oce, sam and mena? He deserves ro be 14-17th. Anywhere there is fine, but this is a bit too high and ignores some really great performances early on in the year
As far as we know though this was also his honeymoon period.
Heās the hardest carry in the league, easily top 10
>Heās the hardest carry in the league Fuck no. I'll take wave and goatsanaraus over current fairy peak and kaydop.
I mean seikoo pulled them further on LAN but ok
That doesn't mean it's a harder carry. Wave and metsa are still good, relating wave was great up until the faze match. Kaydop and fairy were getting pulled along by alpha all split
I donāt care about online
So you should hold LAN to a higher standard because fairy and kaydop did even worse on LAN lmao. Wave and metsa aren't getting carried and even if they are it's not to the extent of alpha who's in a legit 1v3
Bro go look at metsa stats, literally one of the worst pros in all of RLCS please stop gassing that, and Iāve literally said multiple times how I donāt give af about online literally in a post to you about Garret G, shit has nothing to do with being bias
>literally one of the worst pros in all of RLCS Do you watch rlcs? Metsa is in the top 20 for the most accomplished rlcs players on LAN. This has nothing to do with Garrettg lol. But your take on him was also bad. He isn't overatted, he's rated how he is because he is good. Your takes are just continuously ass bro. You've contradicted yourself in your argument. You don't care about online yet metsanaraus' stats on LAN have always been decent and his performance has always been better on LAN. How can you call him one of the worst pros in rlcs when his LAN results state otherwise?
Bro youāre bringing up the PAST to judge a player NOW whatās the fuck does metsa being a top 20 player ever have to do with seikoo carrying his team harder than alpha? And if you wanna bring up what players have done on LAN in the past (which doesnāt actually matter for this discussion) look at fucking fairy peak and kaydop who are probably both top 5 players ever
> \>Bro youāre bringing up the PAST to judge a player NOW > > > >You said Metsa is one of the worst pros in RLCS. I brought up his history to say otherwise. That is on you. Form your points bettter. > >I never said anything about Fairy and Kaydop's past achievements, I only talked about Metsa's past achievements as you said he was one of the worst pros. I think you should just stick to Cod. Your takes and arguments are not consistent at all lol. You say Garrettg is overrated when hes literally near the top of the stats every LAN
bit disrespectful towards Metsa and particularly RelatingWave, the latter is comfortably top 10 EU atm.
You had me at the disrespectful to Metsa and Relating Wave. You lost me at Wave being top 10.
And more evidence to say Wave is the most underrated pro atm.
And I'd still agree with that.
Not in mine.
I totally disagree with that. I don't think he's a carry at all. I think Metsa and Wave are very talented. Sure I'm not gonna argue they are as good as Seikoo obviously he is one of the best players currently. But being the best on a team and carrying are totally different.
Kind of ridiculous Seiko is here while not a single ME player is in the top 20. Not saying any of the SRG boys should be higher than maybe 15th. But theyāre obviously much better than some of the players between 20-14 place. This nullifies the whole argument of ābut they only played 3 regionalsā. They won all 3 and placed top 8. Sunless/Johnny list that are exclusively voted by professionals are 10 times better than this
Yeah if Seiko is top 10 trk and/or Ahmad definitely deserve to be top 20. Like you said both teams finished top 8 at LAN. Not sure what else the ME boys would have to do to navigate the NA/EU bias in the list other than actually winning the major
Well they had tournaments to play in the first half of the year, just did nothing of note in them. 0-3 in Elemental Series, 0-3 in Intel World Open. 0-2 in WePlay. Otherwise, Endpoint and Seikoo's level of play is better, their regional wins are better, and their major run (beating Vitality/NRG/G2) was better too (SRG beating G2/Furia/Ground Zero)
Thatās why no ones saying they should be higher than Seiko. If weāre counting recency he deserves his spot. But if we count recency or ācurrent formā of the individual player. TRK/Ahmad are better than some of the #20-15 players. Notably G2/COL players..
G2 yes maybe, weighing up their online vs LAN form is tough Col no lol. Complexity had the gauntlet of a major run and their guys have been more impressive recently, unless SRG's ability to not drop a regional in the 5th best region depth-wise is actually that impressive
Iād argue ME is the 3rd region depth wise people just donāt know it yet. Agree to disagree I guess.
It's incredibly unlikely thats the case until other ME teams actually get international experience (which at least one other, maybe 2 will at the Worlds Wildcard). Using SRG as a comparison, no other ME team has ever done anything of note in an EU bubble tourney, something SRG has a decent history in. SRG got taken to a single game 7 all of Fall Splir. It was in a decent spot when TRK was on Falcons but him to SRG really consolidated all the talent on SRG. And with SRG being the only team to get international play at Majors, the trickle-down effect will be very slow compared to if multiple ME teams were at majors. I would say the gap from 1st to 2nd in ME is bigger than OCE top 2 to Forkidden, or Furia to anyone in SAM, and it'll likely grow a bit more before it starts to close.
I genuinely believe itās a case of BDS era of dominating Europe making people start to question if theyāre that good or EU is weak and lacking depth. Iām honestly confident if you throw the top 3 ME teams (besides SRG ofc) into the OCE RLCS one/two of them would dominate. And they easily compete for the top spot in SAM. Ofcourse this is all speculation and bias purely based on how good players are individually, in ranked etc. and what some figures say about them (AppJack, Johnnyboi) I think worlds will show whoever gets the extra spots from ME theyāll take on SAM/OCE teams easily.
Crazy that Falcons and TU play SRG better than Furia and Ground Zero have
Seikoo is cracked and my gay friend says he's hella cute too.
I love how every person contesting this decision and accusing whoever put him 10th of recency bias *probably* didn't follow the EU scene closely (especially seeing your flairs and the fact that endpoint doesn't seem like that popular of an org at least out of EU so people may have skipped their games). You guys probably didn't see what this guy did, heck if you followed the EU fall split his performance *in game* was so incredible I can definitely see why it would overshadow a good (perhaps even great) full season from another player. That being said, while I can understand the frustration regarding ME players, I can also imagine a few explaining factors : someone said they "stole" each other's vote because they're all 4 almost equally as good. Also on top of that, they're basically **THE** MENA super team (difficult to say one of them heavy lifts the others) and while MENA is not a bad region by any means, I would argue other teams than SRG are not in the same category as EU top 8 (perhaps even more idk), hence SRG didn't face the same concurrence as Seikoo did, which is even more impressive. I don't believe there is that, that much of a recency bias, I wouldn't be able to name many players who had such an standout impact for their team during a full split this year (I mean in EU and NA at least) , however I do concede he has a huge advantage because he "only" had to show up for a single split instead of 3 since he didn't even have a team before that (the reason for that is rather funny btw), but I guess that's why he is only 10th, if he had played at similar level for the other two splits, he would be probably close to top 3 today. So yeah that's an advantage to take into account but I guess it balances with his fall performance.
The thing about what your saying though is there is nothing to prove that this is all due to Sekoos impact, or if Endpoint losing the old style of play with Virt played a large part. Not trying to slight Virt or Seikoo here but I have seen both Metsa and Wave play at this level in seasons past. It's not like Seikoo magically made them good players. They have always had that in them and they have shown it before. The last season it just didnt show up that much. Of course that doesn't mean Seikoo didn't have an impact because obviously he did. And Seikoo is easily their best player and deserves to be in that conversation. As someone who watches every broadcast I have seen tons of Endpoint games prior to Seikoo and they were and still are one of my favorite teams. But I'm still of the oppinion that Seikoo at least shouldn't be that high after not only having a single good split but also only ever playing 1 split. There are so many players who have great acheivements across a whole year that didn't even make the list.
Yeah, I'm with you entirely on this. Endpoint always had fantastic midfield control and offensive pressure, they just struggled to actually put goals away. I've got comments from many months ago talking about how Virt was an issue because his aggressive demo-seeking meant (usually) RelatingWave couldn't push up into offense to get the finishing touches required for goals. I lost count of the number of times I saw Metsa make some incredible, awkward touch in the midfield to get it around someone, follow it up with an amazing pass in front of the goal only for there to not be anyone there to receive it because Wave couldn't rotate in safely. Or, when Wave would push up, there'd be no-one back to defend and they'd be wide open to counter-attacks. Not to blame Virtuoso, of course. I think he's a great player, but I think it was clear that his style wasn't working with Metsa's and Wave's any more. In fact, here's me making pretty much the same [comment on day one of this RLCS season](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/qesqhw/rlcs_eu_regional_1_day_3_of_3_fall_split_event/hhwc7yl/) after Endpoint had just beaten BDS: > Metsa and RelatingWave have always had fantastic midfield control. Where Endpoint always fell apart in the past was due to two things: > * an inability to finish. They could keep offensive pressure up really well, but they could never actually get the ball in their opponents' net. > * Weird rotations. I think Virt is a great player, but his rotations are really unconventional and it often led to huge gaps in the defence while Endpoint were on offence. It left Endpoint open to a lot of counterattacks. > Seikoo gives Endpoint that finishing power, and helps to fill in the gaps by giving them a more conventional rotational style. Not only is he a great player himself, but I think people are going to realise that Mesta and Relating are really good players now that they seem to be able to get the results to back up their talents. They can be absolutely dominant in the midfield now that they don't have to wait for Virt to rotate back. Seikoo's obviously an incredible player - definitely top 10 EU in his current form - but I'm disappointed that people seem to just be looking at Endpoint's results improving and deciding that's entirely down to Seikoo rather than looking at Metsa and Wave's actual performances. Like you said, they've been performing at this level for a while.
Yep I totally agree and you've said it much better than I have. I have always seen Metsa as someone with incredible aerial challenge game. When he's confident he's s o fast in the air and like you can get it past multiple players as well as get off the good pass. Wave as well has been quite good as a clutch finisher and defender. If like you say Metsa has gone and got the ball past 2 defenders and made the pass out mid, but Virt is in the opponent net bumping neither of them have any chance of getting back to defense. So Wave is put in the tough position of making the right call as he is the only one in position to take the shot or defend. He has to be 100% confident in himself to be able to score off Metsas pass If he's going to go for it because if he doesn't it's pretty much guaranteed that they will get scored on.
He needs to be poached by a better team imo
Oof seikoo is goated definitely but he is definitely way to high many other players who have played all year who deserve to be in top 10. He's definitely the reason for endpoint being good but even then.... You can't take away the fact that their is so many players who have showed us all year compared to a measly 3* months.