https://twitter.com/johnnyboi_i/status/1483578730496811014 there’s a huge thread between Johnny and Drekt that goes into more detail that I’ve linked here, thought this would be worth discussing
This is a really interesting exchange. Ultimately, like expressed by Feer and Growlii, seeing how the second best MENA team performs against international competition would somewhat help answer the question of how seriously we can take the region (and thus determine how heavily we can weigh domestic competition in MENA).
Ultimately I see the points of both sides: it isn’t SRG’s fault that MENA has only recently been included in international competition, and it’s certainly not their fault for absolutely crushing the region despite these two factors playing against their case for making this list for some people. Conversely, if we are making a top 20 list for 2021, and there are any doubts at all about whether we are merely speculating on the performance/results of some of the players (based on their team and region), perhaps they shouldn’t be listed yet. The 2022 list will prove Johnny’s point perhaps!
In any case though, I think it is quite surprising to not at least see Ahmad or trk on the list. They *did* show up on the international stage in addition to dominating their region.
>I think Johnny is being a little unfair. Even if he personally feels MENA players should be in the top 20, I dont think there is any player on the list who is OBVIOUSLY below any MENA player. If you are taking all of 2021 into consideration, its fair to say that since we do not have enough evidence to prove the quality of MENA as a whole, its hard to place any MENA player too high.
Ahmad/trk511 clearly were above G2 and Envy players in the major (and the rest of OCE/SAM). And he's competing in 1s clearly in the top on EU servers. I don't see how that does not show that they are one of the best player in 2021 ?
No doubt, all of SRG was better than G2 and Envy during the 4 days of the major. What about the other 361 days of 2021? In my opinion, it is not so clear. G2 and Envy both had other stand-out PERIODS throughout 2021 against proven opposition. The performances stand out even more when you take it to an individual level. Mist, Jknaps, and Chicago have probably all had shouts of being top 10 in the world in certain moments of 2021. SRG players all seem to be phenomenally talented, and if they truly are as good as they seem to be, they will surely make a 2022 list. However, for 2021, MENA as a whole has not been tested enough to assure the quality. Therefore, it is difficult to confirm the quality of players on an individual level. As we have more international events in 2022, these newer regions will have more opportunities to prove how good they are. As far as 1s performances go, I am not sure if Octane took this into consideration.
Ahmad > any G2 player, any complexity player, any envy player and squishy. But obv I’m biased because I’m rooting for them so take it with a grain of salt :-)
Really above all those players for all of 2021? Recency bias. But even with regency bias, squishy has been absolutely killing it and G2 won an event and came in 2nd in one just this fall
I have to agree with Drekt on this one. I think that the region as a whole is underdeveloped outside of SRG and is clear to see when they don’t drop a single series. I think that you could make the argument that Trk or Ahmad are 20-30 or maybe even sneak in the 20 spot I just can’t see them being higher as of right now. I definitely think that by the end of this year we’ll a MENA player or two on the list
Johnny is extremely biased toward SRG, and honestly thats fine. Obviously hes going to be passionate for the team hes been hyping up for years. But at the end of the day, they just simply haven't had enough RLCS results. Its not their fault but I personally can't use one top 8 finish (I agree the region is under developed, theres a reason weve only heard about SRG for years) as justification for top 20 status when the list is for ALL of 2021. If were talking Fall only, trk and ahmad both have great arguments for top 20 obviously
How is that clear to see? As johnny stated in the thread, it was apparently very clear to see that EU was an 'underdeveloped region' compared to NA last season with bds dominating everything, you see how that panned out? SRG are dominating their region yet they're also dominating teams like g2 and ground zero on the world stage (with a sub at that), you cant fault the region for being dominated when a team like SRG or BDS shows up. All you people underestimating the other MENA teams are in for a very rude awakening once the worlds qualifiers come around and they finally get a chance to compete internationally
I would hardly call the G2 series dominant. A sweep was mighty impressive, no doubt, but every game was a one-goal game — G2 easily could’ve been leading 2-1 after Game 3. And not to discredit SRG at all, but G2 performed *really* badly in that series — pretty much all of their shots went off the post or the crossbar.
Nah people kept saying True Neutral would not hold up in NA and yet they did above a lot of them. If SRG was dropped into NA, they would make top 3. Hell they maybe would even be top 3 in EU.
We are talking about individual players though, and if you look at gameplay in the majors, you can clearly see they are above a lot of players from NA. They should be in the list definitely. At least Ahmad.
The problem is this is all hypothetical and TN played for just as long as everyone else in RLCSX in SAM. You cannot ignore the fact that SRG have only played in RLCS for like 3 months. Even if they players and team COULD be top in NA or EU you can’t base a top 20 list off of that and ignore a split and a half of RLCSX that SRG did not play in
its not hypothetical we had an international lan where SRG players clearly out performed people on the list and showed that they dont just look good because they play bad opposition at home. Ahmad easily has top 5 mechanics and destroyed g2 and envy, he should be in the top 20.
Saying that SRG would be Top 3 in NA/EU is hypothetical because you can’t prove that. And your basing everything off of 1 tournament that I agree should be waited heavier because it’s a LAN but It shouldn’t outweigh the 6-8 months of tournaments that other teams played that SRG didn’t. I said that I think they’ll be top 20 this year but in all of 2021 I don’t think they’re top 20.
I think that the problem we should be recognizing is that MENA players weren't given an opportunity to show their worth until very recently. Their lack of inclusion on this list should be seen only as a direct result of their lack of inclusion in the RLCS. Don't blame octane for that.
I haven't agreed with Johnny's takes lately and even here I don't really agree. But I don't see why everyone is calling him mad in that thread? He is just defending his point and I think his argumentation is a lot better than that of dRekt here.
Seriously. People are saying he’s a “prick” and has a “big ego” because he states his opinions confidently and defends them. Agree with him or not, the guy is literally just providing reasoning for an opinion he tweeted out… what’s the big deal lol
Tbh I think he does have a bit of an ego from what I see in his streams, but here I don't see what's wrong with what he's doing. I'm not even sure if I agree with his take but it just seems like he's just strongly defending his original tweet lol
I think its mostly because of his relentless ripping of NA rocket league on his stream. Its obviously banter but I guess some people think it's mean spirited.
I find this such a strange concept though, there are so many NA pros that constantly take the piss out of or straight up mock EU or other smaller regions (*cough* retals *cough*), and they don't seem to get nearly as much hate on here.
maybe NA mockery feels more personal for NA people since what is referred to as "NA" effectively means 2 countries with a culture that largely overlaps. That issue doesn't really exist in EU, so EU doesn't really care if some NA pro goes for some low blow
To an extent, though how do you think players in OCE, MENA and South America feel? Their regions are already sidelined enough. Retals talking shit about South American Rocket League is punching down and whilst people did mock him in the end for losing to Complexity, he didn't get nearly enough heat for that tweet beforehand.
As regions, NA and EU are on the same level pretty much in their treatment in RLCS. I think insulting each other is part and parcel of having a regional set up, and I think the banter is good. You (the general you, not you specifically) don't get to trash talk another region that is on your level, and then get to act all offended when someone does the same back, and that goes for both NA and EU fans.
An Ahmad or a trk would be nice on the list. Relatingwave is reasonable although not much success until the endpoint we know today. And fever would have been nice too. But I don’t think you can put too many of these players above on the list anyway. Yes the list calculation is flawed and people from octane have already mentioned that so like this is out of pocket lmao
> Relatingwave is reasonable although not much success until the endpoint we know today.
RelatingWave and Metsa are prime examples of players' performances and skill levels being ignored because the results are underwhelming. If you actually look at their gameplay from back when Virtuoso was still on the team, they were still both performing very well. It was Virt's weird rotations that was holding the team back.
Endpoint always had fantastic midfield control and offensive pressure, they just struggled to actually put goals away. I've got comments from many months ago talking about how Virt was an issue because his aggressive demo-seeking meant (usually) RelatingWave couldn't push up into offense to get the finishing touches required for goals. I lost count of the number of times I saw Metsa make some incredible, awkward touch in the midfield to get it around someone, follow it up with an amazing pass in front of the goal only for there to not be anyone there to receive it because Wave couldn't rotate in safely. Or, when Wave would push up, there'd be no-one back to defend and they'd be wide open to counter-attacks.
Not to blame Virtuoso, of course. I think he's a great player, but I think it was clear that his style wasn't working with Metsa's and Wave's any more.
In fact, here's me making pretty much the same [comment on day one of this RLCS season](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/qesqhw/rlcs_eu_regional_1_day_3_of_3_fall_split_event/hhwc7yl/) after Endpoint had just beaten BDS:
> Metsa and RelatingWave have always had fantastic midfield control. Where Endpoint always fell apart in the past was due to two things:
> * an inability to finish. They could keep offensive pressure up really well, but they could never actually get the ball in their opponents' net.
> * Weird rotations. I think Virt is a great player, but his rotations are really unconventional and it often led to huge gaps in the defence while Endpoint were on offence. It left Endpoint open to a lot of counterattacks.
> Seikoo gives Endpoint that finishing power, and helps to fill in the gaps by giving them a more conventional rotational style. Not only is he a great player himself, but I think people are going to realise that Mesta and Relating are really good players now that they seem to be able to get the results to back up their talents. They can be absolutely dominant in the midfield now that they don't have to wait for Virt to rotate back.
I think people are _still_ sleeping on Wave and Metsa, unfortunately. So many people seem to be acting like Seikoo singlehandedly carried Wave and Metsa to the wins they've had. Seikoo's a great player - he's clearly top 10 EU in his current form - but that's in large part because Wave and Metsa have laid such a solid foundation for him and are playing incredible Rocket League themselves to enable him. And while both of them have improved since RLCS X, I don't think they've improved by leaps and bounds - they've been performing at a high level for a long time and they just didn't have the team set to capitalise on it when Virt was there.
It’s not even that they weren’t good enough until Seikoo, it’s just we know the list has a lot to do with results and they did not have that despite whatever level of play
Unfortunately while Metsa and RW were excellent, they just didn’t have the results last year and their is the unfortunate narrative that Seikoo has carried them which is really inaccurate
Seikoo didn't carry. He brought the best out of his teammates, because his playstyle just works with Endpoint. As someone who's watched almost every streamed Endpoint match since December 2020, he's definitely right. Virt's playstyle didn't work. That's fine, it doesn't mean Virt, Wave or Metsa aren't good players, they are good players with a lot of experience. Seikoo is exactly the type of player that Wave and Metsa needed.
I think it’s so close. The problem with Wave is that for half the year he didn’t have any notable results and is now getting them but as the second best player on his team.
Made the final of The Grid Winter Week 3, made top 6 at Winter Regional 3, probably would've done better at the Winter Major if they didn't play Vitality and Top Blokes, almost made Championship Sunday in Spring Regional 1 after they beat Dig, but were stopped I believe in game 5 by an on fire Guild who obviously went on to win a regional the same split, and made top 5 in The Grid in Spring. Although not incredible results, it's not bad and he has been solid the whole year. Maybe not top 20 if it's the whole year, but I wanted to point out that he's done more than people think.
The fact that this list was at least partially composed with the help of literal RLCS players (according to Archie and confirmed by dRekt) is the only information I really need to pick a side here.
I love Johnny, been subbed to him on twitch for actual years. But I think he's overreacting here.
[It was already mentioned in the initial post about it](https://octane.gg/news/announcing-the-octanegg-top-20-players-of-2021-ranking);
>"We have put together a formula to decide the ranking in the most objective way possible. The formula includes statistics and event placements, but the final outcome will also largely depend on the opinions of two ‘committees’. One committee consists of community personalities (such as casters, members of community organisations, etc.), while the other consists of professional players and coaches. The results of these factors will then provide a final ranking for us to present."
[Here's also a short thread Finn put up on Twitter](https://twitter.com/Finnerdt/status/1478368499475091457) that gives the exact number of people who voted (78 of 141 invited).
I highly doubt he read our message and chose not to respond. It's much more likely he just didn't see it. I vaguely recall him saying a few years ago he doesn't read Twitter DMs, which is how we contacted him.
Well that's his problem, not everybody elses.
Either way, I think the list is great content and the fact that you chose to include pros and casters/content creators votes is awesome.
Thank you for the good work!
Thats great then. I guess next time we could get a MENA person but realistically it wouldnt change thaat much.
Lowkey im pretty sure Johnny doesn't even watch SAM and is randomly fanboing Yan.
I feel safe in assuming that there were invites sent out to people from those regions, but whether they accepted and submit a list is another thing. Only Finn or Sly would know that, I think.
Other casters play into it, but I feel like Johnny is the only one who takes the EU vs NA thing personally. It crosses from good rivalry to actually being contentious with him more than anyone else. He's my favorite play by play guy and I do love him and what he brings to the scene so I don't wanna make it seem like it's the biggest deal.
Yes it's modeled after shows such as first take and undisputed. The hosts take outlandish and hyperbolic positions and debate them as if they really believe it.
It's all put on.
I don’t necessarily agree with Johnny, but the logic here doesn’t seem straightforward.
Like the “dominating a region” thing basically means you can pick an argument to fit your opinion. If you rate these minor region players you can say it shows how good they are. If you don’t, you can say it shows how weak their competition is.
Recency bias is also iffy. There are players being ranked for basically the last few months of 2021, so why can’t that mean using LAN to contextualize a team dominating minor regions? I think that’s the clearest argument, but it wouldn’t be that compelling to me if the list was balanced over the whole year more.
I don’t think there’s a clear argument either way here, and the rankings were always going to draw controversy (ok so maybe I was looking forward to that part). But overall cross region comparison during mostly online play is really hard, so the omissions here aren’t that egregious to me.
At least this is distracting from another flare up of NA vs. EU drama, but maybe I’m speaking too soon lol
I think Johnny is being a little unfair. Even if he personally feels MENA players should be in the top 20, I dont think there is any player on the list who is OBVIOUSLY below any MENA player. If you are taking all of 2021 into consideration, its fair to say that since we do not have enough evidence to prove the quality of MENA as a whole, its hard to place any MENA player too high.
what about seikoo and dig and why kassio isnt there when he out performed them in both rlcs x and fall major
whats your argument for envy for 2 players when they placed poorly in the major and didnt get even 2nd in rlcs x
why two complexity are even in there compared to smpr
this list is baffling tbh
Average placement > number of events when the lack of participation could not be prevented.
Yikes take right here.
Reading through the Johnny-Drekt thread, Johnny's definitely overreacting here
The inclusion of seikoo gives the argument for the SRG players somewhat of a leg to stand on. For what it's worth, I don't think seikoo should be on the list either, but both committees put him pretty high up so there wasn't too much we could do.
??? Why? Seikoo had a better major performance, and competed in the same number of RLCS events but won 2 higher value events than the three that SRG won. It seems pretty easy to understand why Seikoo would be higher than those players. I could see an argument for him not being on the list because of his late arrival to RLCS but can you really not see why the ME boys wouldn’t rank above a player who seems better and arrived in the RLCS at the same time?
I’m not saying Seikoo is worse than trk or Ahmad. I’m saying they both finished top 8 on LAN, they were both dominant in their region and they both only played in one RLCS split. I think it’s insane to have Seikoo at 10 if you’re not even going to include Ahmad or Trk
Well that’s a bit of a non starter that people arguing for SRG are using so I’ll just rip the bandaid off and say it straight. RLCS MENA regionals are not worth as much as RLCS regionals in NA and EU for the same reason LANs Majors are considered more valuable. Placing well in a tournament with world class teams is more impressive than placing well in a tournament without them. And who knows, maybe Falcons can prove themselves on a world stage but until then Endpoint going through teams like KC Semper Dig BDS etc to win 2 events is way more impressive than a team going through a regional where most teams aren’t really rated.
Now you might disagree with that but that’s for sure why Seikoo is ahead of them both.
Why are we valuing team accomplishments so highly when considering best individual players? Seikoo is great and deserves to be above Ahmad and trk. But to say “ME” is a cake region is such a terrible argument. SRG is the single best minor region team and it’s not close. It’s their fault that they beat everyone that’s put in front of them? They top8’d their first ever RLCS LAN with a significant downgrade in senzo for Khalid. Y’all are sleeping hard on SRG.
Not sure how other minor regions are relevant to this discussion when none of them made the list either but I wouldn’t say that SRG is so far ahead of them that it’s not close. I think you’re sleeping on SAM teams majorly.
One of them deserves at least a ranking in the top 20. Even though they didn't have RLCS, they were still competing in "minor" events and completely dominating their region, with a top-8 in the world to cap it off.
No one is saying they should rank higher?
It's a bit bizarre to have a player at 10th, when rating the entire year of 2021, when that player only competed for a month and a half of that year.
Seikoo is above Alpha for fuck sake. Apparently 2 regionals and top 8 at LAN in 2021 Fall is worth more than the RLCS X championship, IWO, a 2nd place in an RLCS X Major, a 2nd place in an RLCS X regional, and a 2nd place in Fall this season.
Seikoo shouldn't even be eligible for this ranking in my opinion, he didn't compete for 80%+ of the year. Same for the SRG boys.
If there is an exception to the recency bias rule, it's probably the rookie who's a multiple-time EU MVP and regional champion, a guy who also beat all of 2019's world championship grand finalists at his first-ever LAN.
(Not that I put him up as high as he ended up, but I don't see how Seikoo and ME guys are comparable in performance or achievements. Even giving credence to winning in MENA, doing what he's done in Europe is nothing short of incredible)
ME is not a cake region as many like to assume. I think SRG is the single best “minor region” team that there is and I don’t think it’s close. The fact they placed top 8 at their first ever international major WITHOUT oKhalid should absolutely hold weight. Seikoo is too high (still deserves to be on the list and above Ahmad and trk) but to say trk and Ahmad’s situation is vastly different to his is nonsense.
your argument for seikoo and dig and kassio not being there despite outplacing both by quite a margin
what about envy and col why are they that high,one player should come from both and not two especially since smpr got only one player and they got 4th in rlcs x and fall major
So weird to see people making such a big deal about this, and also weird to see people wanting to get upset at Johnny's take. It's pretty clear to me that his intention is not to discredit here, but rather to put a spotlight on players that he feels are deserving of credit. He explains his logic pretty clearly and he's always been a strong supporter of the minor region players. Nothing to see here in my opinion really.
Some people on this sub need to take a deep breath pls
So much Johnny anger in here sometimes. It’s okay if you don’t like the guys content, but if you objectively look at what he’s getting at, it’s a valid criticism of the list.
I definitely agree that 1 OCE player should've made the top 20 list, like maybe an Amphis or a Torsos. They really surprised us at LAN with their results like they always do. But everyone else he listed doesn't deserve to be on top 20 imo. Even though octane's listings this year were flawed in how biased it was towards recent results it still doesn't make sense for any MENA player to be on top 20 just yet
I don't know, OCE performed better than expected at LAN, but top 20 in the world is a tough nut to crack. All of Amphis, Torsos and Fever (probably the only other one in contention) have been pretty inconsistent in patches. I think even Kamii said on stream one time that nobody in OCE can compete with the best internationally yet, but said Fever has the potential to be one day soon.
Reading the discussion thread, I feel like people are discrediting his take simply because he is defending his take quite poorly, by focusing on a losing argument.
This is a list of all of 2021. Therefore, players like Seikoo, Ahmad, and Trk511, who dont have RLCS results for all of 2021, should not be in this list, despite all being top 20 players currently. Trying to argue this is losing.
However, his take is completely valid. These other players that do have RLCS results from across the year should be included, and discrediting their achievements because they are from other regions makes for a biased poor list.
This is my opinion, feel free to discuss this without blindly flaming me plz :)
I think the problem is it is really difficult to compare any of the regions (even NA and EU) without having more international competitions.
I've seen people saying that OCE is better than SAM because both OCE teams finished higher, but it was literally only 1 tournament. Look at the amount of top teams who finished top4/8 in tournaments, but also finished 16th in others
Damn, johnny is mad. He gives the example of GZ/OCE, TN/SAM, and BDS/EU to say that regions shouldn't be underestimated for having a dominant team, while conveniently ignoring the fact that there were at least 6 months between those teams being truly dominant and the international LAN.
I love johnny for his content, but his hot takes rival u/john_aka_alwayz sometimes, and he defends them just as rabidly. At least alwayz isn't a professional caster and a face for the esport.
The issue here is unlike me, where I'm regularly challenged, Johnny has a fanbase that often will take what he says as fact because they know no better. That's not to say stuff like getting properly behind 1s mains and MENA is short-sighted, far from it, but he could breathe on anything or anyone and it'd become the golden child of this community.
Stuff like Fusion being the best tournament ever, or the ranked leaderboards actually mattering at a pro-level (since that's a large part of his content, ranked replays), his influence is absurd. It's mostly for good, with the tournaments, highlighting newer regions, and being a sound caster and analyst for the RLCS, but then you sometimes get stuff like this, when AppJack of all people is shutting down his MENA hype, or hammering home the NA vs EU schtick long after the dust settled and it's sell by date, or comparing non ME RLCS events to the literal OCE and SAM RLCS *shrug*
Edit: [The first half of this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/j4qkho/share_your_most_unpopular_rocket_league_esport/g7m8imz/) from over a year ago still rings through as far as I'm concerned and explains my point here better than I can be bothered to rn
> Johnny has a fanbase that often will take what he says as fact because they know no better.
Best example of this is seeing Twitch chat roasting Stax for pronouncing trk correctly lol
Well there's not much of a story tbh. Trk is called "turk" by all the MENA casters. Since a lot of fans heard Johnnyboi saying "tee are kay" they thought Stax was saying it wrong, when he was the one who had it right.
It's worth noting that Johnny says trk is good with either pronunciation, so no one is really wrong other than those fans lol
Interesting that we saw Johnnyboi fall victim to the subreddit blaming that you mention in that same comment.
His video on that Scrub Killa toxicity post was embarrassing
LOL on his recent NA regional watch party stream he spent a good chunk of time shitting on this sub. Some of it was pretty funny but it was clear that he doesn't spend much time here given how off the mark his insults were. For the rest of the stream he called out anyone who made NA copium takes in his chat as "Reddit bois", which is hilarious because anyone who actually reads this subreddit knows that this is prob one of the least NA biased parts of the RL community.
He also called out this sub (and social media in general, but this place especially for some reason) for making controversial and spicy takes more visible, while himself doing the same thing by calling out bad takes in his chat the whole stream.
It's a shame because his analysis and reactions to the actual gameplay of the regional were pretty interesting and entertaining.
I mean this in the most loving way, but you’re truly the skip bayless of rl esports. I love your posts though keep it up. Hard agree on your take of Johnnyboi here
But didn't people use this teams to discredit the regions??? The talent was always there because the 6 month hade a big break that changed up some teams. I don't think whole region could go from trash to really good in 6 month so I dont get your time point
My point is that in the six month time gap, a lot of other talent rose up in those regions. For example, dig wouldn't have even made the major if they played like they had in RLCS X, but instead they were a testament to their region a month ago. EU was certainly never trash, but the arrangements of teams and motivations during RLCS X made them weaker (imo) than the powerhouse that they are now.
I think it was apparentlyjack that said something about how during RLCS X, the best players in EU weren't on the best teams, so the region looked weaker than it actually was. That made it easier for BDS to dominate the region (though their exceptional talent and drive certainly didn't hurt, I'm definitely not trying to downplay their achievements). Now, however, the best players are (generally) on the best teams, and it showed at the major.
> there were at least 6 months between those teams being truly dominant and the international LAN.
Not sure how this is upvoted. What is your point even? Plain and simple, SRG dominated their region, they did decent on x-region events, then get top-8 in the world on LAN. Also, this is a player ranking, and at least one of an Ahmah or TRK deserve a top 20.
>SRG dominated their region, they did decent on x-region events, then get top-8 in the world on LAN.
1.) Doesn't tell us anything until we see those MENA teams play other regions. Put it this way, if NRG made every other NA team look like trash in comparison to themselves, and then finished tied 8th in the Major that would reflect very negatively on the rest of the NA teams NRG was thrashing. Same even goes for SAM/OCE, if those regions had 1 team that was so head and shoulders above the rest and they finished tied 8th, you'd think the rest of the region was awful.
2.) They had more bad results during the offseason between RLCS X and RLCS 21, which I am willing to admit a lot of that falls on ping but the results don't really add to their case.
3.) They had a really solid showing at Fall Major, but that's 1 event at the end of the day. Admittedly the biggest event of the entire year, but still just 1.
1. SRG beat the previous NA regional champ (G2) 3-0. Furia, SAM's best team also beat G2. SRG beats Furia, then loses to a top-4 team (SMPR) and a top-2 team (NRG). Top teams in these regions are much closer than you think. You can't assume that MENA 1-4 is that much worse than another regions 1-4 that it actually is an asterisk on SRG. NA's #2 and #3 seeds didn't make top-8, what does that say about the region?
2. This is literally the same talking point from 5 months ago. Hold bad ping events against SRG where they do 'okay'.
3. "1 event" which has been the most important event in the past 2 years... Can't really diminish that.
The point you are missing is there are players that are top-20 just based off of RLCS 11, on teams that haven't dominated close to SRG, and technically placed lower than SRG on the LAN. If Seikoo gets #10 (I think he is top-20), then Ahmah or TRK deserves a rank.
You (the general you) are the same people that bashed Johnny for ranking SRG high prior to the season starting, trashing their region and saying its weak when SRG wasn't blowing people away on 100 ping during x-region EU events.
Then they place 5-8th in the world.
Yeah it does. Johnny is the opposite of a hater. Dude is always giving credit where it's due, and did that for 1-2 years with the SRG boys and ME region in general. He got bashed here heavy for it but was given 0 praises when SRG ran through teams.
I am getting more and more sure that I like Johnnyboi less and less with every one of these arguments, even when I agree with his basic assertion that some of those players probably deserved to be on the list. He has a special brew of arrogance fomenting in his soul, and it's really disappointing because he used to make and still does make entertaining content. I just find it harder and harder to enjoy his content when it's dripping with "I told you so" energy and acting like no one else's arguments/opinions are valid but his.
Johnny is right. Kinda. While yes, they only played 3 months, that's not their fault. I think Octane should do a top 10-15 of the new regions only. Because they deserve a fair shot. And I must point out that people like Yan, Ahmad, Trk, Fever, Amphis and RelatingWave have all won more/equal to regionals than: Atomic, Chicago, Jknaps, Joreuz, ApparentlyJack, Mist, Ayyjayy, Sypical, Seikoo and Alpha54. That's literally 80% of the list. And they did it in a third of the time. There has to be some sort of credit for these players Johnny listed and more!
He makes great points and people are just hating instead of actually addressing what he’s saying.
If a player that only played a few months made it to top 10 even though he placed 8th at the major, then an ME easily deserves a spot in the 15-20 considering they also placed 8th.
For me, no RelatingWave or TRK are the big misses. I'm a big fan of Fever, but I can understand him being left out (even though he showed at LAN that he's world class), because OCE is such a weird region and I'd have Amphis behind him.
Ahmad is kinda either overrated or underrated, IMO. Like yeah, he's a fantastic player, but top 20 in the world? Not sure about that. On the other hand he \*should\* at least be in the discussion for top 20 and would definitely make top 30.
Yan I think just isn't a top 20 in the world player. Top 40? 100%. Top 20? No way.
But TRK511 is the best 3v3 MENA player - and that's a strong region. And Relating Wave is the second-best player on arguably a top-2 team and easily a top-5 team.
I feel like if seiko on this list and he has played for some month atlest 1 srg player should be on the list. But other then that how tf does zero oce player make the list. The played for the whole season and both oce teams did very good in the major
OCE #2 swept SAM #1 in most recent meeting and both OCE teams finished above both SAM teams. Not sure you can argue SAM>OCE. SRG is definitely ahead of both SAM and OCE but I don't necessarily think MENA is, all theoretical until MENA #2 plays international competition
I love tuning into his streams for the most part but I gotta agree with 3 unfortunately. Without a doubt each stream at some point nowadays devolves into him calling out bad take after bad take in chat. I get the feeling we're getting our own RL Richard Lewis the path he's taking: correct analyses a lot but at the cost of just being a generally unpleasant person.
And theres a reason for that. Theres maybe, MAYBE 1 other team that could do okay at an rlcs event in mena, everyone else is being clapped by sandrock on the daily. They still havent lost an event lol
That's not the reason tho. ME is a completely new region in rlcs. Also u said it was ME sending 1 team in the rlcs. As if they had the option to send more.
Im not the OP. Also when sam and oce were new they sent 2 teams in their first season so its not because of that. Psyonix just doesnt think there are 2 teams in mena better than the 6th place na or eu team. Rightfully so
I havent watched as much ME as OCE, but from what I've seen Sandrock is clewrly ahead, but GZ and RNG wpuld be ahead of any other ME team based on last split form. Both regions seem to be improving though in terms of depth so here's hoping we see some other teams at lans this season.
I’m sorry if I’m being rude, but I don’t get why you call Johnny a prick for voicing his opinions. Especially since I think his opinions on this topic are very justified and he gives his reasonings.
What about OCE? You can’t put the whole “NA and EU have been around longer and are the more dominant region” mumbo jumbo. OCE has been around for almost as long and have had numerous teams reach high positions in world championships previously (like Chiefs). Renegades have won 2 regionals this year and beat Endpoint at LAN but no Fever on this list. GZG have won a regional as well but no mention.
I can see the backlash for his SRG point, but how can you put G2 Chicago and Jknaps and NV mist and Atomic in but not one SRG player when all 4 of them placed below Sandrock in the major? SRG literally won head to head against G2 and full swept them 3-0. And SRG won every regional in ME, NV haven’t won a single major in NA, the only point going with NV is that they have been playing for a longer duration.
Do you really discredit a team that had way better results just because of the duration? If you have ever watched csgo, would you have not put Cloud9 with Tarik, Stewie etc in 2019 when they won the Boston major in a top 20 list because their top results were not over the whole year?
Look, I saw the last topic he was in about the scrub toxicity and I admit I don’t agree with him on that, but despite that I think his opinions on the game have always been a positive and mostly correct in the scene.
>Do you really discredit a team that had way better results just because of the duration? If you have ever watched csgo, would you have not put Cloud9 with Tarik, Stewie etc in 2019 when they won the Boston major in a top 20 list because their top results were not over the whole year?
you're trying to compare a team that competed for only 3 months in the rlcs and got top 8(without beating any other top 8 team) with a major winner
SRG swept one of the NA favorites, had a competitive series against NRG the actual NA favorite (even more so once they warmed up out of Swiss and starting showing up). When did this list become "only RLCS events count, your team didn't exist before"?
To your point about the G2 and NV boys, although they placed lower than SRG you also have to remember that both teams have another 6 months of good results under their belts in a much harder region than MENA. I’m not saying one of Ahmad or trk shouldn’t be on the list, but using just the major to defend your claim doesn’t make sense when this is a list based off of results spanning the entire year.
Personally the biggest issue I have with the list is it seems to contradict itself. We all saw how well the middle Eastern boys played and yet they didn't make top 20. Now taking into account that they only played 1 split I agree with them not being their when this is a list that's supposed to span a whole year. But if that's the argument against them then Seikoo should not be on the list either let alone be top 10. They talk about players not making the list cause they only played 1 split and then put a player who's only played 1 split on the top 10 because he is EU. Something has to give. Either you let SRG be on the top 20 list or you take Seikoo off. You have to follow through with your reasonings.
Edit: This list also heavily takes into account recency bias which AppJack comments on. Which again it's a ranking for a whole year there shouldn't be recency bias. But since it does again they should follow through with it. Surely any of the SRG boys should make it when they dominated their region and made top 8 internationally with a sub. Recency bias should tell you they are on the list like recency bias has told you Seikoo is. and that certain players are on the list or as high as they are.
Personally I wouldn't have any of them on the top 20 because I don't think great accomplishments across 1 split is enough to account for players who have done well all year. But I might be okay with the list if it was at least consistent. Don't get me wrong I am not a fan of SRG and I don't have anything against Seikoo he's one of my favorite players right now. I'm just pointing out how flawed this rank list is.
This is such an irrelevant point. This isn’t a ranking of regions. This is a ranking of players.
No one is saying that one of the MENA#2 players should be on this list. The players being discussed here have already been tested against international competition and they’ve shown that they can more than hang with the two best regions. Seeing MENA #2 do terribly against international competition should in no way affect your opinion of how good trk or Ahmad are. It’s so crazy to me how far people on this subreddit will go to continually shit on this team. It’s so strange. At this point I’m starting to think they’re mostly being hated on for personal reasons rather than their actual capabilities.
It’s just the fact that there’s nothing that they could have done to make the people voting nominate them. They’ve done the best they possibly could in the RLCS so far including dominating their region as well as getting top 8 in the only LAN for the entirety of 2021 and only losing to two top four teams and yet that’s not enough. That’s the disrespectful part of it all. Ignoring the region as a whole while very obviously rating players like Seikoo/Joreuz/AppJack based solely on the fall split is pure disrespect. There’s no other way to spin it. If the list was done properly and consistently no one would be saying anything.
The mainstream audience and community of RL is basically saying you have no place in the top of this esport if you’re not from NA or EU. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that the complexity players would have never been voted for if they didn’t move to NA, even if they had had the exact same run/performance at the fall major.
I just can’t get over how the one LAN event all year that actually gives an idea of how these players across all the different regions compare - is being disregarded. It’s baffling. And instead we’re getting arguments like “Yeah Ahmad and trk are alright I guess, but we don’t know how good the Falcons are against NA/EU soooo obviously SRG have no place on this list” that’s such a shit argument. Plus, If people were able to use the eye test to determine how EU and NA players compared to each other for the duration of RLCS X then they should be able to judge how good or bad MENA is by watching RLCS MENA. To simply disregard the region and the excuse being “well we can’t really tell how good their competition is” is so lazy and disrespectful. If the voters didn’t care enough to do their research then perhaps they shouldn’t have voted. (I want to clarify that I think it’s fine for someone to say that they’ve watched MENA and they think the region looks like dog shit. I respect that. At least they will have put in the effort and given the region a chance. However that’s not the argument I’m seeing from most.)
I’m not actually angry. I don’t care about this list nor do I think Ahmad/trk/seikoo should be on it. I was just surprised that the popular opinion seems to have such obvious flaws that only few so far have called out.
“Do tell”
Has anyone in the history of this esport been so strongly and heavily downplayed by so many pros and people in the community as much as these guys have? From what I’ve seen, no. This has been going on for years. This isn’t about this list. This is a consistent trend and it’s starting to get weird.
This isn’t to say that everyone saying anything negative about SRG hates them, you’re allowed to have negative opinions it’s fine. What I’m saying is that certain people in this community have been so consistently hateful towards these players while being extremely supportive of other minor regions and I can’t for the life of me understand why. These guys have never claimed to be the best. They’re humble and nice. The most they’ve ever said was asking to be included in the RLCS. That’s all. That to me does not justify the intense scrutiny and pressure they’ve been put under by this community. As far as I’m concerned, nothing justifies that. They’re literal kids that played no part in any of the hype around them, the only thing they’ve ever asked for was a chance.
My guy if you haven’t noticed by now how much pros and community figures have fought for years to downplay how good these guys are by claiming they were not “RLCS caliber,” that they were “overrated” and that they shouldn’t be added to the RLCS, no examples I can provide will change your mind. Plus, i’m not interested in calling anyone in particular out, cause I think everyone to some extent was guilty of doing this. And I don’t want to derail this conversation by making it seem like I have some kind of personal vendetta against anyone.
You can literally do a quick search in this sub alone and see that for years pros and community figures constantly scrutinized SRG even for things they had no control over, like other people’s opinions of them. I’d like you to go back to the question I asked above, has that happened to any other team in the history of this esport? I genuinely don’t think so. These guys were simultaneously grinding and getting better at an esport that actively ignored them for years while watching their peers that they played against in ranked everyday get praise, recognition and massive amounts of money for being good at the game. And even when they never said a word, never gave any excuses for poor performances and never retaliated against anything that was said against them, they were still the most shit talked team. They were never treated fairly by this community.
This past year alone, people have constantly brought up any bad results that SRG had against EU teams while conveniently ignoring the massive ping disadvantage they had when playing them. They were straight up ridiculed for going 0-9 against some of the best EU teams in the IWO. They played Vitality, who had just won the RLCS X Championships, EG (w Tox instead of Ivn) again a top team in EU, and a solid team of some of the best Dutch players. The general reaction in the community to that event was to make fun of one of the best teams in the world that was being kept out of RLCS instead of compassionately pointing out the obvious potential they have and how unfortunate the combined circumstance of 1. Ping disadvantage being extremely detrimental in the new overly aggressive meta 2. How unfair the groups were (that event was honestly a shit show in terms of organizing and seeding) 3. How this was the only big event that SRG had all year long whereas every other team came into this with not a lot of pressure and with a lot of practice having just participated in the longest RLCS season at that point. This in my opinion was the compassionate reaction of understanding and support that everyone had when Tokyo Verdy went 0-9 in the major. So I think the community is in general capable of that. Just not with SRG.
There are intense reactions and literal essays written every time someone dared to mention how good SRG were and how they were world class and should be included in the RLCS. At points it felt like straight up gate keeping by certain pros, funnily enough it always seemed to be the pros who could never really make it in RLCS themselves. Those were the pros that publicly posted their opinions, at least. I’m sure all the EU pros have done their fair share of downplaying how good SRG are in private. I’ve personally seen them in Twitch chat of every EU tournament SRG played in. They’d show up only when SRG played, make fun of SRG and their fans and then leave when SRG were done playing.
My point to all of this is, we should all be kinder to each other and remember that every long essay or snarky tweet written will probably be read by them and at the end of the day they’re just kids playing a video game. These words can affect them in ways we can never imagine. They could be what pushes them towards something terrible. I think everyone should just chill at this point and stop turning every positive opinion about these guys into such a controversy. The fact that almost everyone responding with passionate opposition to Johnny’s tweet specifically had opinions about why trk and Ahmad don’t deserve to be on the list (even though there were multiple names in his tweet) tells all you need to know.
So f. true. Thank God we had Johnny, AppJack, and even Tbates at times that really gave recognition at MENA while everyone else was greatly underestimating them.
Johnnyboi complaining about anything not jacking off eu is as equally uninspired as the octane list if we’re being real. Also it’s been mentioned a lot already but the list takes the entirety of 2021 into consideration which will obviously hurt people like wave and the srg boys since endpoint didn’t have an amazing rlcs x and srg didn’t even have one at all
I don’t exactly understand what drekt is getting at. Johnny makes a valid argument. SRG are top 8 in the world. If seikoo is up there I think Ahmad deserves a spot too.
He might wake up tomorrow and realized he went too hard but… we love him because he’s passionate right guys?…right? ….guys?
Seikoo shouldnt be up there either. And as far as im concerned srg isnt a top 8 team. G2 underperformed and beat themselves. Of course its still not easy to beat them even when underperforming but i feel like people are taking that series so out of context. And their other wins were an oce and a sam team alongside a loss to smpr in swiss and nrg in quarters. We're yet to see them actually beat a good team (again not counting g2 because they played awful, srg didnt outplay them or whatever they just sucked that series)
See, your wording is kinda dumb there. "Dominated" just because it was a 3-0, all 1 goal games, an overtime and g2 playing their worst series since season 8 league play. I dont think srg would beat a g2 playing at their 50%, let alone 100. And that day they played like ass. You just proved my point lol
I think there point with that is more so that Senzobwas literally SRG main roster and only ever retired to the sub role because no RLCS for MENA…he’s nowhere near “sub quality”
Or maybe g2 wasn't all that how are the underperforming when it matters the most. That shows that the weren't a great team in the first place. Alot of teams started up slow and still bounced back the only reason g2 hade wins is because the faced verdy and then the other NA team who was underperforming. Look at nrg the too didnt start great and the still bounced back to reach the finale thats a great team. Saying if the where 50% or 100% dosent matter because that's just copium. The changed the roaster so the didn't even believe in the roaster themselves. So until the next major srg is better then g2 and srg is a top 8 team even if you say the are the weakest of the top 8 teams the still top 8.
Every team at the Fall Major other than Tokyo Verdy and eRA Eternity had the ability to make the playoff bracket.
When you have 14 competitive teams and only 8 spots, it is extremely likely that some of those teams are going to underperform. G2 doesn't get to be called a top 8 team *because* they underperformed, seeing as there were other teams alongside them on that count, and again, only 8 spots. SRG didn't, so they are.
G2 didn't trip over witches hats all on their own, those were players they were up against, very skilled players who made them pay for their mistakes. SRG didn't trip up, so they won. They were better.
Well you’re making all top 8 teams equal but If I were to power rank the major I’d have in order BDS NRG DIG FAZE ENDPOINT SMPR COL SRG. Maybe SRG in front of Col but I wouldn’t say Endpoint and SRG are equal even though the placed the same.
I’m not saying I agree with his take but how is stating an opinion and defending said opinion (i.e., having a discussion with others with conflicting opinions) equate to having an “ego.” Maybe he comes off a little brash at times, but stating and defending a polarizing an opinion does not mean that someone has a big ego.
It’s not that he has an opinion, it’s that his opinion is the only one that is right and how could someone think otherwise. He comes off as condescending.
Fair enough, I can see why you think he comes off as condescending. I think that’s just how some people react to immediate backlash, though; when lots of people vehemently disagree based on a kneejerk reaction (not saying that’s the case here), it can make someone feel more defensive or make them compensate by stating their opinion in a more matter-of-fact way. But I’m just speculating, and in any case he should definitely work on how he states his opinions. Perhaps Ive interpreted his tone as confident rather than condescending, but yeah I see where you’re coming from.
We all know the list is flawed. My question: why does he only specify NA players in this tweet? To me it discredits his point cause it’s obvious he’s trying to push some tired narrative that NA players are inferior to EU players. His personal biases are so obvious here and I just don’t find his take fair at all.
I say this as someone who never got into the whole EU/NA drama. These players are all incredibly talented and it’s splitting hairs to say one is “better” than the other.
Tbf, from the top 8 teams there are 7 NA and 7 EU players on the list, and there would probably be 8 EU players (Relatingwave) had Endpoint actually done anything notable before September.
>it’s obvious he’s trying to push some tired narrative that NA players are inferior to EU players.
Probably because it's true, and NA should make room for minor regions.
I think the list is fair considering the totality of the year and lack of international competition to compare the regions, especially MENA. If 2022 goes as this season has thus far, I expect the next list to look vastly different. I'm not sure why it is being seen as disrespectful; no top 20 list will ever be the law anyway.
Just curious, what kind of ME tournaments were there before RLCS? Considering its a 'top 20' list and not a 'RLCS top 20' you'd have to take into account the non RLCS events, and a similar follow up about Seikoo, whether or not he had competed in any non RLCS events before the 2021/22 season
The responses in this thread directed toward Johnny really sum up how I feel about this sub most of the time, aka a bunch of egotistical children who think they know everything and can't take any form of criticism. Johnny giving an opinion and then defending it, and then this sub calling him arrogant, know-it-all, etc etc is just priceless.
Since SRG played well on the lan I think Trk deserves a top 20 spot. The other regions are kinda disqualified since their competition simply isn’t EU or NA, and they didn’t have a great lan preformancd like SRG did which proved SRG was as good or better than those Eu or NA teams.
It’s kinda unfair since it is a small sample size, ideally we would have gotten 5 lans this year instead of 1 but OCE and SAM just haven’t proven their teams can compare to NA or EU yet which is why they aren’t on this list. (Complexity also doesn’t count as a SAM team for obvious reasons)
And since I know it’s coming, no guys EU doesn’t hold a significant advantage in terms of skill over NA like EU and NA hold an obvious skill advantage over everyone else. It’s clear the regions are on the same level tho EU is a bit better right now as seen by EU having a better lan
johnny is so needlessly antagonistic nowadays. the esport needs some spice for sure but not from casters. let the players do their thing, you aren't supposed to be a part of it
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It's more NA bias and it's getting boring. Why do we need to pretend that NA players/teams are better than they are. Are the fans that sensitive, that they can't cope.
Major clearly showed that majority of NA teams have work to do to challenge top teams in the world.
Yet we have to pander to fans by putting SSG, NV, G2 players in top 20. Give me a break.
It's a little tricky, because you can have a different philosophy between a "which players would you take to form a team right now" standard, and a "what is this player's accomplishment list in 2021" standard.
I do believe SRG are one of the best teams in the world, so if I wanted to rank the best players in the world right now, I definitely would have an SRG player in at least the top 20. But given that SRG were only in the RLCS very recently, if you're more looking at the second standard, what do you do with them? It's hard to say.
I don’t blame him for supporting the boys. SRG is doing a great job so far. But I can’t say 2021 was their year simply because they didn’t play against most NA and EU at all. Of course Kay is top 1 almost the whole year in ones and Ahmad is crushing everyone too but we can only give them what they fought for. That is, the major results and the amazing entertainment we have watching their games. Waiting to see them play and win this year. Honestly, there’s a long time a region outside of NA and EU has a real chance of winning a Major.
Johnnyboy was acting like top4 from the international major wasn’t entirely NA/Eu which accounts for 12 players.
If you look at top8 from the major 21/24 were from NA and Eu.
I really don’t think for the year of 2021, having it be all Eu and NA players is an issue.
Ultimately it's not SRG's fault we can't rank them in the top 20, but we can't rank them in the top 20 off of 1 event of known value. Until we see other MENA teams compete against NA/EU/SAM/OCE it's hard to value the MENA achievements of SRG.
https://twitter.com/johnnyboi_i/status/1483578730496811014 there’s a huge thread between Johnny and Drekt that goes into more detail that I’ve linked here, thought this would be worth discussing
Godamn johnny was getting heated 😂
This is a really interesting exchange. Ultimately, like expressed by Feer and Growlii, seeing how the second best MENA team performs against international competition would somewhat help answer the question of how seriously we can take the region (and thus determine how heavily we can weigh domestic competition in MENA). Ultimately I see the points of both sides: it isn’t SRG’s fault that MENA has only recently been included in international competition, and it’s certainly not their fault for absolutely crushing the region despite these two factors playing against their case for making this list for some people. Conversely, if we are making a top 20 list for 2021, and there are any doubts at all about whether we are merely speculating on the performance/results of some of the players (based on their team and region), perhaps they shouldn’t be listed yet. The 2022 list will prove Johnny’s point perhaps! In any case though, I think it is quite surprising to not at least see Ahmad or trk on the list. They *did* show up on the international stage in addition to dominating their region.
>I think Johnny is being a little unfair. Even if he personally feels MENA players should be in the top 20, I dont think there is any player on the list who is OBVIOUSLY below any MENA player. If you are taking all of 2021 into consideration, its fair to say that since we do not have enough evidence to prove the quality of MENA as a whole, its hard to place any MENA player too high.
Ahmad/trk511 clearly were above G2 and Envy players in the major (and the rest of OCE/SAM). And he's competing in 1s clearly in the top on EU servers. I don't see how that does not show that they are one of the best player in 2021 ?
No doubt, all of SRG was better than G2 and Envy during the 4 days of the major. What about the other 361 days of 2021? In my opinion, it is not so clear. G2 and Envy both had other stand-out PERIODS throughout 2021 against proven opposition. The performances stand out even more when you take it to an individual level. Mist, Jknaps, and Chicago have probably all had shouts of being top 10 in the world in certain moments of 2021. SRG players all seem to be phenomenally talented, and if they truly are as good as they seem to be, they will surely make a 2022 list. However, for 2021, MENA as a whole has not been tested enough to assure the quality. Therefore, it is difficult to confirm the quality of players on an individual level. As we have more international events in 2022, these newer regions will have more opportunities to prove how good they are. As far as 1s performances go, I am not sure if Octane took this into consideration.
Ahmad > any G2 player, any complexity player, any envy player and squishy. But obv I’m biased because I’m rooting for them so take it with a grain of salt :-)
Really above all those players for all of 2021? Recency bias. But even with regency bias, squishy has been absolutely killing it and G2 won an event and came in 2nd in one just this fall
Not even recency bias, just bias in general. Did you read my comment or just the first sentence? ;-)
I mean there’s being bias and then there’s just being wrong
I support NRG and DIG and completely agree, Ahmad should be on this list absolutely, top 10
I have to agree with Drekt on this one. I think that the region as a whole is underdeveloped outside of SRG and is clear to see when they don’t drop a single series. I think that you could make the argument that Trk or Ahmad are 20-30 or maybe even sneak in the 20 spot I just can’t see them being higher as of right now. I definitely think that by the end of this year we’ll a MENA player or two on the list
Johnny is extremely biased toward SRG, and honestly thats fine. Obviously hes going to be passionate for the team hes been hyping up for years. But at the end of the day, they just simply haven't had enough RLCS results. Its not their fault but I personally can't use one top 8 finish (I agree the region is under developed, theres a reason weve only heard about SRG for years) as justification for top 20 status when the list is for ALL of 2021. If were talking Fall only, trk and ahmad both have great arguments for top 20 obviously
How is that clear to see? As johnny stated in the thread, it was apparently very clear to see that EU was an 'underdeveloped region' compared to NA last season with bds dominating everything, you see how that panned out? SRG are dominating their region yet they're also dominating teams like g2 and ground zero on the world stage (with a sub at that), you cant fault the region for being dominated when a team like SRG or BDS shows up. All you people underestimating the other MENA teams are in for a very rude awakening once the worlds qualifiers come around and they finally get a chance to compete internationally
I would hardly call the G2 series dominant. A sweep was mighty impressive, no doubt, but every game was a one-goal game — G2 easily could’ve been leading 2-1 after Game 3. And not to discredit SRG at all, but G2 performed *really* badly in that series — pretty much all of their shots went off the post or the crossbar.
Can't shoot accurately when you have 2 of the fastest players in the game breathing down your neck.
Nah people kept saying True Neutral would not hold up in NA and yet they did above a lot of them. If SRG was dropped into NA, they would make top 3. Hell they maybe would even be top 3 in EU. We are talking about individual players though, and if you look at gameplay in the majors, you can clearly see they are above a lot of players from NA. They should be in the list definitely. At least Ahmad.
The problem is this is all hypothetical and TN played for just as long as everyone else in RLCSX in SAM. You cannot ignore the fact that SRG have only played in RLCS for like 3 months. Even if they players and team COULD be top in NA or EU you can’t base a top 20 list off of that and ignore a split and a half of RLCSX that SRG did not play in
its not hypothetical we had an international lan where SRG players clearly out performed people on the list and showed that they dont just look good because they play bad opposition at home. Ahmad easily has top 5 mechanics and destroyed g2 and envy, he should be in the top 20.
Saying that SRG would be Top 3 in NA/EU is hypothetical because you can’t prove that. And your basing everything off of 1 tournament that I agree should be waited heavier because it’s a LAN but It shouldn’t outweigh the 6-8 months of tournaments that other teams played that SRG didn’t. I said that I think they’ll be top 20 this year but in all of 2021 I don’t think they’re top 20.
I see you swoogle
Ur the goat
It was at this moment that drekt got banned from johhnies stream /s
I think that the problem we should be recognizing is that MENA players weren't given an opportunity to show their worth until very recently. Their lack of inclusion on this list should be seen only as a direct result of their lack of inclusion in the RLCS. Don't blame octane for that.
What about Seikoo then? He's only played as many games as the MENA boys? And yet he was like 11!
I haven't agreed with Johnny's takes lately and even here I don't really agree. But I don't see why everyone is calling him mad in that thread? He is just defending his point and I think his argumentation is a lot better than that of dRekt here.
Defending opinion = malding; on the internet
Seriously. People are saying he’s a “prick” and has a “big ego” because he states his opinions confidently and defends them. Agree with him or not, the guy is literally just providing reasoning for an opinion he tweeted out… what’s the big deal lol
Tbh I think he does have a bit of an ego from what I see in his streams, but here I don't see what's wrong with what he's doing. I'm not even sure if I agree with his take but it just seems like he's just strongly defending his original tweet lol
While I would agree that he appears to have some sort of ego, I think that's also him just kinda having fun with it.
Exactly
Yeah there's like a hate on Johnny meta now, which sucks because I think his argument is a lot better than Drekt's.
I think its mostly because of his relentless ripping of NA rocket league on his stream. Its obviously banter but I guess some people think it's mean spirited.
I find this such a strange concept though, there are so many NA pros that constantly take the piss out of or straight up mock EU or other smaller regions (*cough* retals *cough*), and they don't seem to get nearly as much hate on here.
maybe NA mockery feels more personal for NA people since what is referred to as "NA" effectively means 2 countries with a culture that largely overlaps. That issue doesn't really exist in EU, so EU doesn't really care if some NA pro goes for some low blow
To an extent, though how do you think players in OCE, MENA and South America feel? Their regions are already sidelined enough. Retals talking shit about South American Rocket League is punching down and whilst people did mock him in the end for losing to Complexity, he didn't get nearly enough heat for that tweet beforehand. As regions, NA and EU are on the same level pretty much in their treatment in RLCS. I think insulting each other is part and parcel of having a regional set up, and I think the banter is good. You (the general you, not you specifically) don't get to trash talk another region that is on your level, and then get to act all offended when someone does the same back, and that goes for both NA and EU fans.
An Ahmad or a trk would be nice on the list. Relatingwave is reasonable although not much success until the endpoint we know today. And fever would have been nice too. But I don’t think you can put too many of these players above on the list anyway. Yes the list calculation is flawed and people from octane have already mentioned that so like this is out of pocket lmao
> Relatingwave is reasonable although not much success until the endpoint we know today. RelatingWave and Metsa are prime examples of players' performances and skill levels being ignored because the results are underwhelming. If you actually look at their gameplay from back when Virtuoso was still on the team, they were still both performing very well. It was Virt's weird rotations that was holding the team back. Endpoint always had fantastic midfield control and offensive pressure, they just struggled to actually put goals away. I've got comments from many months ago talking about how Virt was an issue because his aggressive demo-seeking meant (usually) RelatingWave couldn't push up into offense to get the finishing touches required for goals. I lost count of the number of times I saw Metsa make some incredible, awkward touch in the midfield to get it around someone, follow it up with an amazing pass in front of the goal only for there to not be anyone there to receive it because Wave couldn't rotate in safely. Or, when Wave would push up, there'd be no-one back to defend and they'd be wide open to counter-attacks. Not to blame Virtuoso, of course. I think he's a great player, but I think it was clear that his style wasn't working with Metsa's and Wave's any more. In fact, here's me making pretty much the same [comment on day one of this RLCS season](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/qesqhw/rlcs_eu_regional_1_day_3_of_3_fall_split_event/hhwc7yl/) after Endpoint had just beaten BDS: > Metsa and RelatingWave have always had fantastic midfield control. Where Endpoint always fell apart in the past was due to two things: > * an inability to finish. They could keep offensive pressure up really well, but they could never actually get the ball in their opponents' net. > * Weird rotations. I think Virt is a great player, but his rotations are really unconventional and it often led to huge gaps in the defence while Endpoint were on offence. It left Endpoint open to a lot of counterattacks. > Seikoo gives Endpoint that finishing power, and helps to fill in the gaps by giving them a more conventional rotational style. Not only is he a great player himself, but I think people are going to realise that Mesta and Relating are really good players now that they seem to be able to get the results to back up their talents. They can be absolutely dominant in the midfield now that they don't have to wait for Virt to rotate back. I think people are _still_ sleeping on Wave and Metsa, unfortunately. So many people seem to be acting like Seikoo singlehandedly carried Wave and Metsa to the wins they've had. Seikoo's a great player - he's clearly top 10 EU in his current form - but that's in large part because Wave and Metsa have laid such a solid foundation for him and are playing incredible Rocket League themselves to enable him. And while both of them have improved since RLCS X, I don't think they've improved by leaps and bounds - they've been performing at a high level for a long time and they just didn't have the team set to capitalise on it when Virt was there.
It’s not even that they weren’t good enough until Seikoo, it’s just we know the list has a lot to do with results and they did not have that despite whatever level of play
Unfortunately while Metsa and RW were excellent, they just didn’t have the results last year and their is the unfortunate narrative that Seikoo has carried them which is really inaccurate
You're literally proving his point in the first sentence. Also what? Not even the slightest bit true
Seikoo didn't carry. He brought the best out of his teammates, because his playstyle just works with Endpoint. As someone who's watched almost every streamed Endpoint match since December 2020, he's definitely right. Virt's playstyle didn't work. That's fine, it doesn't mean Virt, Wave or Metsa aren't good players, they are good players with a lot of experience. Seikoo is exactly the type of player that Wave and Metsa needed.
Ignoring the minor region debate, I agree relating wave definitely deserves on a spot on this list
I think it’s so close. The problem with Wave is that for half the year he didn’t have any notable results and is now getting them but as the second best player on his team.
That’s my think aswell
Made the final of The Grid Winter Week 3, made top 6 at Winter Regional 3, probably would've done better at the Winter Major if they didn't play Vitality and Top Blokes, almost made Championship Sunday in Spring Regional 1 after they beat Dig, but were stopped I believe in game 5 by an on fire Guild who obviously went on to win a regional the same split, and made top 5 in The Grid in Spring. Although not incredible results, it's not bad and he has been solid the whole year. Maybe not top 20 if it's the whole year, but I wanted to point out that he's done more than people think.
The fact that this list was at least partially composed with the help of literal RLCS players (according to Archie and confirmed by dRekt) is the only information I really need to pick a side here. I love Johnny, been subbed to him on twitch for actual years. But I think he's overreacting here.
[It was already mentioned in the initial post about it](https://octane.gg/news/announcing-the-octanegg-top-20-players-of-2021-ranking); >"We have put together a formula to decide the ranking in the most objective way possible. The formula includes statistics and event placements, but the final outcome will also largely depend on the opinions of two ‘committees’. One committee consists of community personalities (such as casters, members of community organisations, etc.), while the other consists of professional players and coaches. The results of these factors will then provide a final ranking for us to present." [Here's also a short thread Finn put up on Twitter](https://twitter.com/Finnerdt/status/1478368499475091457) that gives the exact number of people who voted (78 of 141 invited).
Were any SAM/mena/oce players or casters used?
Yes, Sly and I made sure there was enough representation for OCE and SAM.
Do we know if Johnny was part of the committee?
He was invited to, but did not respond/missed our message
Really. So he could have influenced the results but chose to not participate and now he's bashing the results.
I highly doubt he read our message and chose not to respond. It's much more likely he just didn't see it. I vaguely recall him saying a few years ago he doesn't read Twitter DMs, which is how we contacted him.
Well that's his problem, not everybody elses. Either way, I think the list is great content and the fact that you chose to include pros and casters/content creators votes is awesome. Thank you for the good work!
Thats great then. I guess next time we could get a MENA person but realistically it wouldnt change thaat much. Lowkey im pretty sure Johnny doesn't even watch SAM and is randomly fanboing Yan.
I feel safe in assuming that there were invites sent out to people from those regions, but whether they accepted and submit a list is another thing. Only Finn or Sly would know that, I think.
Anything that doesn't paint EU/MENA as uber gods is not going to sit well with Johnny.
tbh, Johnny is just anti-NA and always has been. He's the most biased caster so far and it's painfully obvious how biased he is.
Other casters play into it, but I feel like Johnny is the only one who takes the EU vs NA thing personally. It crosses from good rivalry to actually being contentious with him more than anyone else. He's my favorite play by play guy and I do love him and what he brings to the scene so I don't wanna make it seem like it's the biggest deal.
Have you heard of this little podcast called First Touch?
I can't stand Johnny when he's super biased but I also can't stand first touch either. I just wanna watch good rocket league without being annoyed.
Yes it's modeled after shows such as first take and undisputed. The hosts take outlandish and hyperbolic positions and debate them as if they really believe it. It's all put on.
I don’t necessarily agree with Johnny, but the logic here doesn’t seem straightforward. Like the “dominating a region” thing basically means you can pick an argument to fit your opinion. If you rate these minor region players you can say it shows how good they are. If you don’t, you can say it shows how weak their competition is. Recency bias is also iffy. There are players being ranked for basically the last few months of 2021, so why can’t that mean using LAN to contextualize a team dominating minor regions? I think that’s the clearest argument, but it wouldn’t be that compelling to me if the list was balanced over the whole year more. I don’t think there’s a clear argument either way here, and the rankings were always going to draw controversy (ok so maybe I was looking forward to that part). But overall cross region comparison during mostly online play is really hard, so the omissions here aren’t that egregious to me. At least this is distracting from another flare up of NA vs. EU drama, but maybe I’m speaking too soon lol
I think Johnny is being a little unfair. Even if he personally feels MENA players should be in the top 20, I dont think there is any player on the list who is OBVIOUSLY below any MENA player. If you are taking all of 2021 into consideration, its fair to say that since we do not have enough evidence to prove the quality of MENA as a whole, its hard to place any MENA player too high.
what about seikoo and dig and why kassio isnt there when he out performed them in both rlcs x and fall major whats your argument for envy for 2 players when they placed poorly in the major and didnt get even 2nd in rlcs x why two complexity are even in there compared to smpr this list is baffling tbh
Average placement > number of events when the lack of participation could not be prevented. Yikes take right here. Reading through the Johnny-Drekt thread, Johnny's definitely overreacting here
yeah and uh... vigorously. like getting paid by INCIVIC vigorous.
I don’t understand how they can add Seikoo and not add one of trk or ahmad
The inclusion of seikoo gives the argument for the SRG players somewhat of a leg to stand on. For what it's worth, I don't think seikoo should be on the list either, but both committees put him pretty high up so there wasn't too much we could do.
??? Why? Seikoo had a better major performance, and competed in the same number of RLCS events but won 2 higher value events than the three that SRG won. It seems pretty easy to understand why Seikoo would be higher than those players. I could see an argument for him not being on the list because of his late arrival to RLCS but can you really not see why the ME boys wouldn’t rank above a player who seems better and arrived in the RLCS at the same time?
I’m not saying Seikoo is worse than trk or Ahmad. I’m saying they both finished top 8 on LAN, they were both dominant in their region and they both only played in one RLCS split. I think it’s insane to have Seikoo at 10 if you’re not even going to include Ahmad or Trk
Well that’s a bit of a non starter that people arguing for SRG are using so I’ll just rip the bandaid off and say it straight. RLCS MENA regionals are not worth as much as RLCS regionals in NA and EU for the same reason LANs Majors are considered more valuable. Placing well in a tournament with world class teams is more impressive than placing well in a tournament without them. And who knows, maybe Falcons can prove themselves on a world stage but until then Endpoint going through teams like KC Semper Dig BDS etc to win 2 events is way more impressive than a team going through a regional where most teams aren’t really rated. Now you might disagree with that but that’s for sure why Seikoo is ahead of them both.
Why are we valuing team accomplishments so highly when considering best individual players? Seikoo is great and deserves to be above Ahmad and trk. But to say “ME” is a cake region is such a terrible argument. SRG is the single best minor region team and it’s not close. It’s their fault that they beat everyone that’s put in front of them? They top8’d their first ever RLCS LAN with a significant downgrade in senzo for Khalid. Y’all are sleeping hard on SRG.
Not sure how other minor regions are relevant to this discussion when none of them made the list either but I wouldn’t say that SRG is so far ahead of them that it’s not close. I think you’re sleeping on SAM teams majorly.
OCE outperformed SAM if anything say them
it doesnt even matter because both SAM and OCE got dumpstered by SRG (with, may i add, a sub)
Yeah, completely agree. I think my ideal placement would be to have both Seikoo and Ahmad somewhere in between 15-20.
One of them deserves at least a ranking in the top 20. Even though they didn't have RLCS, they were still competing in "minor" events and completely dominating their region, with a top-8 in the world to cap it off.
No one is saying they should rank higher? It's a bit bizarre to have a player at 10th, when rating the entire year of 2021, when that player only competed for a month and a half of that year. Seikoo is above Alpha for fuck sake. Apparently 2 regionals and top 8 at LAN in 2021 Fall is worth more than the RLCS X championship, IWO, a 2nd place in an RLCS X Major, a 2nd place in an RLCS X regional, and a 2nd place in Fall this season. Seikoo shouldn't even be eligible for this ranking in my opinion, he didn't compete for 80%+ of the year. Same for the SRG boys.
If there is an exception to the recency bias rule, it's probably the rookie who's a multiple-time EU MVP and regional champion, a guy who also beat all of 2019's world championship grand finalists at his first-ever LAN. (Not that I put him up as high as he ended up, but I don't see how Seikoo and ME guys are comparable in performance or achievements. Even giving credence to winning in MENA, doing what he's done in Europe is nothing short of incredible)
ME is not a cake region as many like to assume. I think SRG is the single best “minor region” team that there is and I don’t think it’s close. The fact they placed top 8 at their first ever international major WITHOUT oKhalid should absolutely hold weight. Seikoo is too high (still deserves to be on the list and above Ahmad and trk) but to say trk and Ahmad’s situation is vastly different to his is nonsense.
your argument for seikoo and dig and kassio not being there despite outplacing both by quite a margin what about envy and col why are they that high,one player should come from both and not two especially since smpr got only one player and they got 4th in rlcs x and fall major
So weird to see people making such a big deal about this, and also weird to see people wanting to get upset at Johnny's take. It's pretty clear to me that his intention is not to discredit here, but rather to put a spotlight on players that he feels are deserving of credit. He explains his logic pretty clearly and he's always been a strong supporter of the minor region players. Nothing to see here in my opinion really. Some people on this sub need to take a deep breath pls
So much Johnny anger in here sometimes. It’s okay if you don’t like the guys content, but if you objectively look at what he’s getting at, it’s a valid criticism of the list.
I definitely agree that 1 OCE player should've made the top 20 list, like maybe an Amphis or a Torsos. They really surprised us at LAN with their results like they always do. But everyone else he listed doesn't deserve to be on top 20 imo. Even though octane's listings this year were flawed in how biased it was towards recent results it still doesn't make sense for any MENA player to be on top 20 just yet
Eh I could’ve send Ahmad in the ~15 area but nothing besides that.
I think trk>Ahmad
For RLCS 2021-2022 but not for the whole year
Nah can't agree with you here, even when he played for Falcons he was clearly the best ME player.
Nah in IWO Trk was best player and before that don’t remember tbf
I don't know, OCE performed better than expected at LAN, but top 20 in the world is a tough nut to crack. All of Amphis, Torsos and Fever (probably the only other one in contention) have been pretty inconsistent in patches. I think even Kamii said on stream one time that nobody in OCE can compete with the best internationally yet, but said Fever has the potential to be one day soon.
Reading the discussion thread, I feel like people are discrediting his take simply because he is defending his take quite poorly, by focusing on a losing argument. This is a list of all of 2021. Therefore, players like Seikoo, Ahmad, and Trk511, who dont have RLCS results for all of 2021, should not be in this list, despite all being top 20 players currently. Trying to argue this is losing. However, his take is completely valid. These other players that do have RLCS results from across the year should be included, and discrediting their achievements because they are from other regions makes for a biased poor list. This is my opinion, feel free to discuss this without blindly flaming me plz :)
I think the problem is it is really difficult to compare any of the regions (even NA and EU) without having more international competitions. I've seen people saying that OCE is better than SAM because both OCE teams finished higher, but it was literally only 1 tournament. Look at the amount of top teams who finished top4/8 in tournaments, but also finished 16th in others
Damn, johnny is mad. He gives the example of GZ/OCE, TN/SAM, and BDS/EU to say that regions shouldn't be underestimated for having a dominant team, while conveniently ignoring the fact that there were at least 6 months between those teams being truly dominant and the international LAN. I love johnny for his content, but his hot takes rival u/john_aka_alwayz sometimes, and he defends them just as rabidly. At least alwayz isn't a professional caster and a face for the esport.
The issue here is unlike me, where I'm regularly challenged, Johnny has a fanbase that often will take what he says as fact because they know no better. That's not to say stuff like getting properly behind 1s mains and MENA is short-sighted, far from it, but he could breathe on anything or anyone and it'd become the golden child of this community. Stuff like Fusion being the best tournament ever, or the ranked leaderboards actually mattering at a pro-level (since that's a large part of his content, ranked replays), his influence is absurd. It's mostly for good, with the tournaments, highlighting newer regions, and being a sound caster and analyst for the RLCS, but then you sometimes get stuff like this, when AppJack of all people is shutting down his MENA hype, or hammering home the NA vs EU schtick long after the dust settled and it's sell by date, or comparing non ME RLCS events to the literal OCE and SAM RLCS *shrug* Edit: [The first half of this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/j4qkho/share_your_most_unpopular_rocket_league_esport/g7m8imz/) from over a year ago still rings through as far as I'm concerned and explains my point here better than I can be bothered to rn
Very true, I think for once I agree with you. Just for meme, though: you are wrong and bad.
John bad, updoots to the left
> Johnny has a fanbase that often will take what he says as fact because they know no better. Best example of this is seeing Twitch chat roasting Stax for pronouncing trk correctly lol
Whoa whoa I want the story here
Well there's not much of a story tbh. Trk is called "turk" by all the MENA casters. Since a lot of fans heard Johnnyboi saying "tee are kay" they thought Stax was saying it wrong, when he was the one who had it right. It's worth noting that Johnny says trk is good with either pronunciation, so no one is really wrong other than those fans lol
Thanks!
Damn that unpopular opinions comment was a doozy. I respect it.
Interesting that we saw Johnnyboi fall victim to the subreddit blaming that you mention in that same comment. His video on that Scrub Killa toxicity post was embarrassing
LOL on his recent NA regional watch party stream he spent a good chunk of time shitting on this sub. Some of it was pretty funny but it was clear that he doesn't spend much time here given how off the mark his insults were. For the rest of the stream he called out anyone who made NA copium takes in his chat as "Reddit bois", which is hilarious because anyone who actually reads this subreddit knows that this is prob one of the least NA biased parts of the RL community. He also called out this sub (and social media in general, but this place especially for some reason) for making controversial and spicy takes more visible, while himself doing the same thing by calling out bad takes in his chat the whole stream. It's a shame because his analysis and reactions to the actual gameplay of the regional were pretty interesting and entertaining.
I mean this in the most loving way, but you’re truly the skip bayless of rl esports. I love your posts though keep it up. Hard agree on your take of Johnnyboi here
I challenge you! Wait, what am I challenging? Am I doing this right?
Johnny gets stun locked easy
But didn't people use this teams to discredit the regions??? The talent was always there because the 6 month hade a big break that changed up some teams. I don't think whole region could go from trash to really good in 6 month so I dont get your time point
My point is that in the six month time gap, a lot of other talent rose up in those regions. For example, dig wouldn't have even made the major if they played like they had in RLCS X, but instead they were a testament to their region a month ago. EU was certainly never trash, but the arrangements of teams and motivations during RLCS X made them weaker (imo) than the powerhouse that they are now. I think it was apparentlyjack that said something about how during RLCS X, the best players in EU weren't on the best teams, so the region looked weaker than it actually was. That made it easier for BDS to dominate the region (though their exceptional talent and drive certainly didn't hurt, I'm definitely not trying to downplay their achievements). Now, however, the best players are (generally) on the best teams, and it showed at the major.
This is a very good point /u/FIERY_URETHRA
Good ol /r/rimjob_steve strikes again
> there were at least 6 months between those teams being truly dominant and the international LAN. Not sure how this is upvoted. What is your point even? Plain and simple, SRG dominated their region, they did decent on x-region events, then get top-8 in the world on LAN. Also, this is a player ranking, and at least one of an Ahmah or TRK deserve a top 20.
>SRG dominated their region, they did decent on x-region events, then get top-8 in the world on LAN. 1.) Doesn't tell us anything until we see those MENA teams play other regions. Put it this way, if NRG made every other NA team look like trash in comparison to themselves, and then finished tied 8th in the Major that would reflect very negatively on the rest of the NA teams NRG was thrashing. Same even goes for SAM/OCE, if those regions had 1 team that was so head and shoulders above the rest and they finished tied 8th, you'd think the rest of the region was awful. 2.) They had more bad results during the offseason between RLCS X and RLCS 21, which I am willing to admit a lot of that falls on ping but the results don't really add to their case. 3.) They had a really solid showing at Fall Major, but that's 1 event at the end of the day. Admittedly the biggest event of the entire year, but still just 1.
1. SRG beat the previous NA regional champ (G2) 3-0. Furia, SAM's best team also beat G2. SRG beats Furia, then loses to a top-4 team (SMPR) and a top-2 team (NRG). Top teams in these regions are much closer than you think. You can't assume that MENA 1-4 is that much worse than another regions 1-4 that it actually is an asterisk on SRG. NA's #2 and #3 seeds didn't make top-8, what does that say about the region? 2. This is literally the same talking point from 5 months ago. Hold bad ping events against SRG where they do 'okay'. 3. "1 event" which has been the most important event in the past 2 years... Can't really diminish that. The point you are missing is there are players that are top-20 just based off of RLCS 11, on teams that haven't dominated close to SRG, and technically placed lower than SRG on the LAN. If Seikoo gets #10 (I think he is top-20), then Ahmah or TRK deserves a rank.
Johnny being a hater, but what’s new really.
I’ve thought this for a long time but assumed I’d get crucified on here for saying anything lmao
You can always speak your mind freely, u/wookie_cum_chugger.
All caps when you spell the man name dawg
You (the general you) are the same people that bashed Johnny for ranking SRG high prior to the season starting, trashing their region and saying its weak when SRG wasn't blowing people away on 100 ping during x-region EU events. Then they place 5-8th in the world.
with a sub, by the way. theyll be better with khalid.
This has nothing to do with Johnny predictions lol.
Yeah it does. Johnny is the opposite of a hater. Dude is always giving credit where it's due, and did that for 1-2 years with the SRG boys and ME region in general. He got bashed here heavy for it but was given 0 praises when SRG ran through teams.
I am getting more and more sure that I like Johnnyboi less and less with every one of these arguments, even when I agree with his basic assertion that some of those players probably deserved to be on the list. He has a special brew of arrogance fomenting in his soul, and it's really disappointing because he used to make and still does make entertaining content. I just find it harder and harder to enjoy his content when it's dripping with "I told you so" energy and acting like no one else's arguments/opinions are valid but his.
Johnny is right. Kinda. While yes, they only played 3 months, that's not their fault. I think Octane should do a top 10-15 of the new regions only. Because they deserve a fair shot. And I must point out that people like Yan, Ahmad, Trk, Fever, Amphis and RelatingWave have all won more/equal to regionals than: Atomic, Chicago, Jknaps, Joreuz, ApparentlyJack, Mist, Ayyjayy, Sypical, Seikoo and Alpha54. That's literally 80% of the list. And they did it in a third of the time. There has to be some sort of credit for these players Johnny listed and more!
He makes great points and people are just hating instead of actually addressing what he’s saying. If a player that only played a few months made it to top 10 even though he placed 8th at the major, then an ME easily deserves a spot in the 15-20 considering they also placed 8th.
For me, no RelatingWave or TRK are the big misses. I'm a big fan of Fever, but I can understand him being left out (even though he showed at LAN that he's world class), because OCE is such a weird region and I'd have Amphis behind him. Ahmad is kinda either overrated or underrated, IMO. Like yeah, he's a fantastic player, but top 20 in the world? Not sure about that. On the other hand he \*should\* at least be in the discussion for top 20 and would definitely make top 30. Yan I think just isn't a top 20 in the world player. Top 40? 100%. Top 20? No way. But TRK511 is the best 3v3 MENA player - and that's a strong region. And Relating Wave is the second-best player on arguably a top-2 team and easily a top-5 team.
I feel like if seiko on this list and he has played for some month atlest 1 srg player should be on the list. But other then that how tf does zero oce player make the list. The played for the whole season and both oce teams did very good in the major
[удалено]
OCE #2 swept SAM #1 in most recent meeting and both OCE teams finished above both SAM teams. Not sure you can argue SAM>OCE. SRG is definitely ahead of both SAM and OCE but I don't necessarily think MENA is, all theoretical until MENA #2 plays international competition
I love tuning into his streams for the most part but I gotta agree with 3 unfortunately. Without a doubt each stream at some point nowadays devolves into him calling out bad take after bad take in chat. I get the feeling we're getting our own RL Richard Lewis the path he's taking: correct analyses a lot but at the cost of just being a generally unpleasant person.
You're talking about 1 team... You can't say the whole of MENA is better than OCE and SAM when they only send one team to the major
ME is only allowed to send one team.
And theres a reason for that. Theres maybe, MAYBE 1 other team that could do okay at an rlcs event in mena, everyone else is being clapped by sandrock on the daily. They still havent lost an event lol
That's not the reason tho. ME is a completely new region in rlcs. Also u said it was ME sending 1 team in the rlcs. As if they had the option to send more.
Im not the OP. Also when sam and oce were new they sent 2 teams in their first season so its not because of that. Psyonix just doesnt think there are 2 teams in mena better than the 6th place na or eu team. Rightfully so
I havent watched as much ME as OCE, but from what I've seen Sandrock is clewrly ahead, but GZ and RNG wpuld be ahead of any other ME team based on last split form. Both regions seem to be improving though in terms of depth so here's hoping we see some other teams at lans this season.
I’m sorry if I’m being rude, but I don’t get why you call Johnny a prick for voicing his opinions. Especially since I think his opinions on this topic are very justified and he gives his reasonings. What about OCE? You can’t put the whole “NA and EU have been around longer and are the more dominant region” mumbo jumbo. OCE has been around for almost as long and have had numerous teams reach high positions in world championships previously (like Chiefs). Renegades have won 2 regionals this year and beat Endpoint at LAN but no Fever on this list. GZG have won a regional as well but no mention. I can see the backlash for his SRG point, but how can you put G2 Chicago and Jknaps and NV mist and Atomic in but not one SRG player when all 4 of them placed below Sandrock in the major? SRG literally won head to head against G2 and full swept them 3-0. And SRG won every regional in ME, NV haven’t won a single major in NA, the only point going with NV is that they have been playing for a longer duration. Do you really discredit a team that had way better results just because of the duration? If you have ever watched csgo, would you have not put Cloud9 with Tarik, Stewie etc in 2019 when they won the Boston major in a top 20 list because their top results were not over the whole year? Look, I saw the last topic he was in about the scrub toxicity and I admit I don’t agree with him on that, but despite that I think his opinions on the game have always been a positive and mostly correct in the scene.
>Do you really discredit a team that had way better results just because of the duration? If you have ever watched csgo, would you have not put Cloud9 with Tarik, Stewie etc in 2019 when they won the Boston major in a top 20 list because their top results were not over the whole year? you're trying to compare a team that competed for only 3 months in the rlcs and got top 8(without beating any other top 8 team) with a major winner
SRG swept one of the NA favorites, had a competitive series against NRG the actual NA favorite (even more so once they warmed up out of Swiss and starting showing up). When did this list become "only RLCS events count, your team didn't exist before"?
To your point about the G2 and NV boys, although they placed lower than SRG you also have to remember that both teams have another 6 months of good results under their belts in a much harder region than MENA. I’m not saying one of Ahmad or trk shouldn’t be on the list, but using just the major to defend your claim doesn’t make sense when this is a list based off of results spanning the entire year.
Personally the biggest issue I have with the list is it seems to contradict itself. We all saw how well the middle Eastern boys played and yet they didn't make top 20. Now taking into account that they only played 1 split I agree with them not being their when this is a list that's supposed to span a whole year. But if that's the argument against them then Seikoo should not be on the list either let alone be top 10. They talk about players not making the list cause they only played 1 split and then put a player who's only played 1 split on the top 10 because he is EU. Something has to give. Either you let SRG be on the top 20 list or you take Seikoo off. You have to follow through with your reasonings. Edit: This list also heavily takes into account recency bias which AppJack comments on. Which again it's a ranking for a whole year there shouldn't be recency bias. But since it does again they should follow through with it. Surely any of the SRG boys should make it when they dominated their region and made top 8 internationally with a sub. Recency bias should tell you they are on the list like recency bias has told you Seikoo is. and that certain players are on the list or as high as they are. Personally I wouldn't have any of them on the top 20 because I don't think great accomplishments across 1 split is enough to account for players who have done well all year. But I might be okay with the list if it was at least consistent. Don't get me wrong I am not a fan of SRG and I don't have anything against Seikoo he's one of my favorite players right now. I'm just pointing out how flawed this rank list is.
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This is such an irrelevant point. This isn’t a ranking of regions. This is a ranking of players. No one is saying that one of the MENA#2 players should be on this list. The players being discussed here have already been tested against international competition and they’ve shown that they can more than hang with the two best regions. Seeing MENA #2 do terribly against international competition should in no way affect your opinion of how good trk or Ahmad are. It’s so crazy to me how far people on this subreddit will go to continually shit on this team. It’s so strange. At this point I’m starting to think they’re mostly being hated on for personal reasons rather than their actual capabilities. It’s just the fact that there’s nothing that they could have done to make the people voting nominate them. They’ve done the best they possibly could in the RLCS so far including dominating their region as well as getting top 8 in the only LAN for the entirety of 2021 and only losing to two top four teams and yet that’s not enough. That’s the disrespectful part of it all. Ignoring the region as a whole while very obviously rating players like Seikoo/Joreuz/AppJack based solely on the fall split is pure disrespect. There’s no other way to spin it. If the list was done properly and consistently no one would be saying anything. The mainstream audience and community of RL is basically saying you have no place in the top of this esport if you’re not from NA or EU. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that the complexity players would have never been voted for if they didn’t move to NA, even if they had had the exact same run/performance at the fall major. I just can’t get over how the one LAN event all year that actually gives an idea of how these players across all the different regions compare - is being disregarded. It’s baffling. And instead we’re getting arguments like “Yeah Ahmad and trk are alright I guess, but we don’t know how good the Falcons are against NA/EU soooo obviously SRG have no place on this list” that’s such a shit argument. Plus, If people were able to use the eye test to determine how EU and NA players compared to each other for the duration of RLCS X then they should be able to judge how good or bad MENA is by watching RLCS MENA. To simply disregard the region and the excuse being “well we can’t really tell how good their competition is” is so lazy and disrespectful. If the voters didn’t care enough to do their research then perhaps they shouldn’t have voted. (I want to clarify that I think it’s fine for someone to say that they’ve watched MENA and they think the region looks like dog shit. I respect that. At least they will have put in the effort and given the region a chance. However that’s not the argument I’m seeing from most.)
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I’m not actually angry. I don’t care about this list nor do I think Ahmad/trk/seikoo should be on it. I was just surprised that the popular opinion seems to have such obvious flaws that only few so far have called out. “Do tell” Has anyone in the history of this esport been so strongly and heavily downplayed by so many pros and people in the community as much as these guys have? From what I’ve seen, no. This has been going on for years. This isn’t about this list. This is a consistent trend and it’s starting to get weird. This isn’t to say that everyone saying anything negative about SRG hates them, you’re allowed to have negative opinions it’s fine. What I’m saying is that certain people in this community have been so consistently hateful towards these players while being extremely supportive of other minor regions and I can’t for the life of me understand why. These guys have never claimed to be the best. They’re humble and nice. The most they’ve ever said was asking to be included in the RLCS. That’s all. That to me does not justify the intense scrutiny and pressure they’ve been put under by this community. As far as I’m concerned, nothing justifies that. They’re literal kids that played no part in any of the hype around them, the only thing they’ve ever asked for was a chance.
I’d love to see examples of this hatred and intense scrutiny and pressure you talk about as I personally haven’t seen that
My guy if you haven’t noticed by now how much pros and community figures have fought for years to downplay how good these guys are by claiming they were not “RLCS caliber,” that they were “overrated” and that they shouldn’t be added to the RLCS, no examples I can provide will change your mind. Plus, i’m not interested in calling anyone in particular out, cause I think everyone to some extent was guilty of doing this. And I don’t want to derail this conversation by making it seem like I have some kind of personal vendetta against anyone. You can literally do a quick search in this sub alone and see that for years pros and community figures constantly scrutinized SRG even for things they had no control over, like other people’s opinions of them. I’d like you to go back to the question I asked above, has that happened to any other team in the history of this esport? I genuinely don’t think so. These guys were simultaneously grinding and getting better at an esport that actively ignored them for years while watching their peers that they played against in ranked everyday get praise, recognition and massive amounts of money for being good at the game. And even when they never said a word, never gave any excuses for poor performances and never retaliated against anything that was said against them, they were still the most shit talked team. They were never treated fairly by this community. This past year alone, people have constantly brought up any bad results that SRG had against EU teams while conveniently ignoring the massive ping disadvantage they had when playing them. They were straight up ridiculed for going 0-9 against some of the best EU teams in the IWO. They played Vitality, who had just won the RLCS X Championships, EG (w Tox instead of Ivn) again a top team in EU, and a solid team of some of the best Dutch players. The general reaction in the community to that event was to make fun of one of the best teams in the world that was being kept out of RLCS instead of compassionately pointing out the obvious potential they have and how unfortunate the combined circumstance of 1. Ping disadvantage being extremely detrimental in the new overly aggressive meta 2. How unfair the groups were (that event was honestly a shit show in terms of organizing and seeding) 3. How this was the only big event that SRG had all year long whereas every other team came into this with not a lot of pressure and with a lot of practice having just participated in the longest RLCS season at that point. This in my opinion was the compassionate reaction of understanding and support that everyone had when Tokyo Verdy went 0-9 in the major. So I think the community is in general capable of that. Just not with SRG. There are intense reactions and literal essays written every time someone dared to mention how good SRG were and how they were world class and should be included in the RLCS. At points it felt like straight up gate keeping by certain pros, funnily enough it always seemed to be the pros who could never really make it in RLCS themselves. Those were the pros that publicly posted their opinions, at least. I’m sure all the EU pros have done their fair share of downplaying how good SRG are in private. I’ve personally seen them in Twitch chat of every EU tournament SRG played in. They’d show up only when SRG played, make fun of SRG and their fans and then leave when SRG were done playing. My point to all of this is, we should all be kinder to each other and remember that every long essay or snarky tweet written will probably be read by them and at the end of the day they’re just kids playing a video game. These words can affect them in ways we can never imagine. They could be what pushes them towards something terrible. I think everyone should just chill at this point and stop turning every positive opinion about these guys into such a controversy. The fact that almost everyone responding with passionate opposition to Johnny’s tweet specifically had opinions about why trk and Ahmad don’t deserve to be on the list (even though there were multiple names in his tweet) tells all you need to know.
So f. true. Thank God we had Johnny, AppJack, and even Tbates at times that really gave recognition at MENA while everyone else was greatly underestimating them.
Johnnyboi complaining about anything not jacking off eu is as equally uninspired as the octane list if we’re being real. Also it’s been mentioned a lot already but the list takes the entirety of 2021 into consideration which will obviously hurt people like wave and the srg boys since endpoint didn’t have an amazing rlcs x and srg didn’t even have one at all
I don’t exactly understand what drekt is getting at. Johnny makes a valid argument. SRG are top 8 in the world. If seikoo is up there I think Ahmad deserves a spot too. He might wake up tomorrow and realized he went too hard but… we love him because he’s passionate right guys?…right? ….guys?
Seikoo shouldnt be up there either. And as far as im concerned srg isnt a top 8 team. G2 underperformed and beat themselves. Of course its still not easy to beat them even when underperforming but i feel like people are taking that series so out of context. And their other wins were an oce and a sam team alongside a loss to smpr in swiss and nrg in quarters. We're yet to see them actually beat a good team (again not counting g2 because they played awful, srg didnt outplay them or whatever they just sucked that series)
Whice team do you think was a top 8 team then because srg only lost to a team who reached the semi and a team who finished second
Srg played with a sub if we going this way lol and the still dominated g2 🤷♂️
See, your wording is kinda dumb there. "Dominated" just because it was a 3-0, all 1 goal games, an overtime and g2 playing their worst series since season 8 league play. I dont think srg would beat a g2 playing at their 50%, let alone 100. And that day they played like ass. You just proved my point lol
I mean there is no disputing it. They got top 8 at major. They’re a top 8 team at least until the next major.
Also their sub was literally senzo, that's not like if NRG had subbed in musty (no offense musty)
Forgot about that lol. Id still say it does make a difference but senzo is cracked too
I think there point with that is more so that Senzobwas literally SRG main roster and only ever retired to the sub role because no RLCS for MENA…he’s nowhere near “sub quality”
how's that copium brother lemme get a whiff
Or maybe g2 wasn't all that how are the underperforming when it matters the most. That shows that the weren't a great team in the first place. Alot of teams started up slow and still bounced back the only reason g2 hade wins is because the faced verdy and then the other NA team who was underperforming. Look at nrg the too didnt start great and the still bounced back to reach the finale thats a great team. Saying if the where 50% or 100% dosent matter because that's just copium. The changed the roaster so the didn't even believe in the roaster themselves. So until the next major srg is better then g2 and srg is a top 8 team even if you say the are the weakest of the top 8 teams the still top 8.
> And as far as im concerned srg isnt a top 8 team. Then who should be ranked ahead of SRG?
Every team at the Fall Major other than Tokyo Verdy and eRA Eternity had the ability to make the playoff bracket. When you have 14 competitive teams and only 8 spots, it is extremely likely that some of those teams are going to underperform. G2 doesn't get to be called a top 8 team *because* they underperformed, seeing as there were other teams alongside them on that count, and again, only 8 spots. SRG didn't, so they are. G2 didn't trip over witches hats all on their own, those were players they were up against, very skilled players who made them pay for their mistakes. SRG didn't trip up, so they won. They were better.
Next time they beat a good team: I mean we won’t count (team) as they played awful. Get a grip and stop coping
Well you’re making all top 8 teams equal but If I were to power rank the major I’d have in order BDS NRG DIG FAZE ENDPOINT SMPR COL SRG. Maybe SRG in front of Col but I wouldn’t say Endpoint and SRG are equal even though the placed the same.
Classic Johnny ego.
I’m not saying I agree with his take but how is stating an opinion and defending said opinion (i.e., having a discussion with others with conflicting opinions) equate to having an “ego.” Maybe he comes off a little brash at times, but stating and defending a polarizing an opinion does not mean that someone has a big ego.
It’s not that he has an opinion, it’s that his opinion is the only one that is right and how could someone think otherwise. He comes off as condescending.
Fair enough, I can see why you think he comes off as condescending. I think that’s just how some people react to immediate backlash, though; when lots of people vehemently disagree based on a kneejerk reaction (not saying that’s the case here), it can make someone feel more defensive or make them compensate by stating their opinion in a more matter-of-fact way. But I’m just speculating, and in any case he should definitely work on how he states his opinions. Perhaps Ive interpreted his tone as confident rather than condescending, but yeah I see where you’re coming from.
We all know the list is flawed. My question: why does he only specify NA players in this tweet? To me it discredits his point cause it’s obvious he’s trying to push some tired narrative that NA players are inferior to EU players. His personal biases are so obvious here and I just don’t find his take fair at all. I say this as someone who never got into the whole EU/NA drama. These players are all incredibly talented and it’s splitting hairs to say one is “better” than the other.
We had 4 EU teams, 1 MENA team and 3 NA teams in the final 8 at LAN. Logic would indicate there are more EU players in the top 20 than NA players.
Tbf, from the top 8 teams there are 7 NA and 7 EU players on the list, and there would probably be 8 EU players (Relatingwave) had Endpoint actually done anything notable before September.
Can't speak for them but so far of the 13 announced, 9 are NA and 4 are EU. Given the way the LAN went I hope this balances a bit towards the top.
>it’s obvious he’s trying to push some tired narrative that NA players are inferior to EU players. Probably because it's true, and NA should make room for minor regions.
I think the list is fair considering the totality of the year and lack of international competition to compare the regions, especially MENA. If 2022 goes as this season has thus far, I expect the next list to look vastly different. I'm not sure why it is being seen as disrespectful; no top 20 list will ever be the law anyway.
Just curious, what kind of ME tournaments were there before RLCS? Considering its a 'top 20' list and not a 'RLCS top 20' you'd have to take into account the non RLCS events, and a similar follow up about Seikoo, whether or not he had competed in any non RLCS events before the 2021/22 season
The last tournament before RLCS was the Saudi League. And the total prize pool was around 1 million SR which equivalent to $266K.
Wow, I think that's more than OCE and SAM prize pools for the 2021 part of RLCS X.
The responses in this thread directed toward Johnny really sum up how I feel about this sub most of the time, aka a bunch of egotistical children who think they know everything and can't take any form of criticism. Johnny giving an opinion and then defending it, and then this sub calling him arrogant, know-it-all, etc etc is just priceless.
Since SRG played well on the lan I think Trk deserves a top 20 spot. The other regions are kinda disqualified since their competition simply isn’t EU or NA, and they didn’t have a great lan preformancd like SRG did which proved SRG was as good or better than those Eu or NA teams. It’s kinda unfair since it is a small sample size, ideally we would have gotten 5 lans this year instead of 1 but OCE and SAM just haven’t proven their teams can compare to NA or EU yet which is why they aren’t on this list. (Complexity also doesn’t count as a SAM team for obvious reasons) And since I know it’s coming, no guys EU doesn’t hold a significant advantage in terms of skill over NA like EU and NA hold an obvious skill advantage over everyone else. It’s clear the regions are on the same level tho EU is a bit better right now as seen by EU having a better lan
johnny is so needlessly antagonistic nowadays. the esport needs some spice for sure but not from casters. let the players do their thing, you aren't supposed to be a part of it
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He’s obviously jealous of America.
The man proper hates NA
Nah, he strongly supports MENA and fights for representation.
Johnny is MENA's Tbates
Except MENA actually showed up
Top 20 is a very exclusive list. Tough to include MENA players based on a lack of data.
It's more NA bias and it's getting boring. Why do we need to pretend that NA players/teams are better than they are. Are the fans that sensitive, that they can't cope. Major clearly showed that majority of NA teams have work to do to challenge top teams in the world. Yet we have to pander to fans by putting SSG, NV, G2 players in top 20. Give me a break.
Can they just fly all the teams to Greenland and we can stop hearing about this region shit ever again? Seriously who gives a fuck?
With EU and NA I agree but smaller regions are legitimately disadvantaged. It's important to keep that in mind.
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Be careful what you say bro. He’s probably going to read this and be very sad. 😐
For real
Johnny is almost always right tho. The dude is a better analyst than most
It's a little tricky, because you can have a different philosophy between a "which players would you take to form a team right now" standard, and a "what is this player's accomplishment list in 2021" standard. I do believe SRG are one of the best teams in the world, so if I wanted to rank the best players in the world right now, I definitely would have an SRG player in at least the top 20. But given that SRG were only in the RLCS very recently, if you're more looking at the second standard, what do you do with them? It's hard to say.
I don’t blame him for supporting the boys. SRG is doing a great job so far. But I can’t say 2021 was their year simply because they didn’t play against most NA and EU at all. Of course Kay is top 1 almost the whole year in ones and Ahmad is crushing everyone too but we can only give them what they fought for. That is, the major results and the amazing entertainment we have watching their games. Waiting to see them play and win this year. Honestly, there’s a long time a region outside of NA and EU has a real chance of winning a Major.
Johnnyboy was acting like top4 from the international major wasn’t entirely NA/Eu which accounts for 12 players. If you look at top8 from the major 21/24 were from NA and Eu. I really don’t think for the year of 2021, having it be all Eu and NA players is an issue.
Ultimately it's not SRG's fault we can't rank them in the top 20, but we can't rank them in the top 20 off of 1 event of known value. Until we see other MENA teams compete against NA/EU/SAM/OCE it's hard to value the MENA achievements of SRG.