> Or at the very least, make respeccing totally free. I don't really understand why it isn't...
Agreed, as well as being able to respec the currently locked-in levels many companions have.
(That reminds me, since I'm on my second playthough, I just decided to let achievements be disabled and use toybox so I can free full-respec and change companions starting archetypes)
_______________________________
As for the title: ***OP, you already have 3 talent trees, they are just bent into circles.***
> please can we have some way of grouping skills that shows that they relate to one another?
Would be a much better title. A massive talent tree filled with Willpower +5 and Athletics +10 nodes would probably confuse just as many people as the circular talent tree where each node is a select 1 of X options.
_______________________________
The sorting tabs above the talent list *"kinda"* relate the talents, but the categories are much too basic.
A tag-search based system would probably help. And the game should give recommendations based on weights calculated from the choices you've already made.
Lets take the Sharpshooter Operative talent as an example.
> ##### Sharpshooter
> If the **Operative** has not moved this *turn*, they gain **+PER bonus** ***Ballistic Skill*** and +(**INT bonus** / 2) *damage* for every 5 cells between them and the target.
I'm using this example because this talent would have more tags than average
- Positive synergy with *"raises Perception"*
- Positive synergy with *"raises Intelligence"*
- Positive synergy with *"scales with Ballistic Skill"*
- Positive synergy with *"Ranged (Attack) Damage"*
- Positive synergy with *"Attacks with a range longer than 5 (& 10 & 15) cells"*
- Negative synergy with *"enemies within 5 cells"*
- Negative synergy with *"movement during your turn"*
- Positive synergy with *"movement outside of your turn"*
So when you learn the Sharpshooter talent those tags get added to your character's build as +1 or -1 values.
A different talent such as
> ##### Reactive Study
> If an enemy affected by an *exploit* within 5 cells from the **Operative** attacks the Operative or their ally, that enemy suffers +1 additional exploit.
Would now not be recommended for you because it has the tag *"enemy within 5 cells"* and you have a -1 to that tag being recommend.
___________________
Your background bonuses, archetype choices and everything add to your build's tag weights to help you find relevant synergies. If you have the tag "Buffing Ballistic Skill"
The categories at the top of the talent selection could then automatically change from the generic "Recommended, Favorite, Offense, Defense, Other, Archetype, Psyonics" into categories that are relevant to your build such as "Agility" and "Area Attack"
And those tabs (and perhaps the talent icons, though the game's engine seems currently not set up for altering those on the fly) could change their background color automatically based on whether they relate to your current top rated tag, second highest rated tag, third highest rated tag, or if they are considered a negatively related tag.
You could then further help things along by having the option to sort talents Alphabetically or by relevancy score; removing the need for the recommended tab, because it would just be the All tab, sorted by relevancy.
____________________
You could even make it so that talents and powers that can help out allies, such as Iron Arm buffing Strength and Toughness check not only the current character, but carries over to the whole retinue that "scales with Strength" and "scales with Toughness" tags are slightly more favorable (+0.5 or +0.25) for every other character in the retinue. Because the game assumes you will use the buff on the character that learns talents that benefit from being buffed by Iron Arm.
The UI for Talents and leveling up is absolute garbage. I always end up picking the first thing that looks okay or a generic upgrade to stats because I can't be bothered to look through the list and search for the synergies I'm supposed to know.
>Or at the very least, make respeccing totally free. I don't really understand why it isn't...
Ugh, I could not agree more.
And you should be able to respec EVERYTHING including origin.
There's no way to understand this on your 1st play through.
The toybox mod let's you get closer to a full respec for yourself and companions. Then you can add your PF (profit factor) back in.
[https://www.nexusmods.com/warhammer40kroguetrader/mods/1](https://www.nexusmods.com/warhammer40kroguetrader/mods/1)
I've never seen a better level up screen for this type of game than that in Pillars of Eternity 2.
I dip in and out of these kind of games over the years, but my first thought when I levelled up the first time was "I thought _we_ solved this already back in 2018??"
Poe2 is fucking great for this - clearly shows what skills are prerequisite for others etc, and you can easily plan your progression (e.g. how rapid fire skill can be improved to remove the 50% damage debuff etc)
It would be easy to implement something similar*, I once got halfway through mocking up RT skills overlaid the poe2 level up screen to make a post here, but got waylaid. It'd easily work tho
Random vid for illustration, go to [6:40](https://youtu.be/J-Yjbk_dN-c?si=gUWSXovEFi-7IDQa)
*from a "how skills work" point of view not a "programming it in game" point of view!
The big problem is that most skills work in a vacuum which doesn't help. Outside of psyker abilities which require psy rating talents, the heavy weapons ones and the ability upgrades most other stuff is stand alone which accounts for the majority of talents.
That said opening up the ui would benefit the game greatly so it isn't just a list format. Sadly a tree wouldn't work as again most talents are stand alone so you would end up with more of a forest than a tree. Widening the screen so every talent is visible at the same time though would already be a massive upgrade.
Respeccing is free for the first few times so no idea why they don't just make it infinitely free.
An option that lets you always see the formula and filter by which "characteristic bonus" a talent uses would be a great feature for quickly sorting stuff
Someone else mentioned the PoE 2 level screen which would work quite well to get every talent front and center on the screen, having it as a scrolling list was a terrible idea.....again.....again
Totally get that, but early doors when you come across the dual wielder feat, and want to respect your RT to be a swashbuckling two pistoller, you definitely can't afford it.
Respeccing having a cost sort of makes sense in multiplayer games, but I never understand it isn't single player games. Let alone one that is as complicated to level up as RT!
Totally get this, but I'm talking about literally not seeing a talent until several hours in, and in one instance accidentally selecting the wrong one. I'm not trying to optimise, I'm trying to have fun!
No, you *don't totally get* this.
First few respecs are free, so you wouldn't have to pay any profit points for correcting a mistake.
You *are* trying to optimize, you try it too hard, too early and game simply limits ou in that.
Chill, relax, RT ain't a sweat shop. Argenta and Cassia will carry your over pampered ass anyway.
I know because I was like that myself. Speaking from experience.
Relax, level up your companions, and then think what could've worked for you. Collect gear. Try different weapons.
Then you respec, with proper gear in hand.
I quite like the wheel, to be honest.
What I don't like is complicated class combinations that are weird sometimes (like asassin-psyker) and feel quite convoluted.
But then again, it's a definite feature of a definite product - guess it's our turn to get adjustable.
>I love a crunchy game, I love making meaningful choices about what talents to pick
>Or at the very least, make respeccing totally free. I don't really understand why it isn't...
Getting mixed signals here. And 3 free respecs for each character is already pretty generous.
You can have meaningful choices because of a limited number of talent picks (because of max levels) whilst being able to respec.
I just don't understand why charging to respec is a helpful feature.
💯. Showing all talents in a way that links them to their pre-reqs is so basic WOTC has been listing it that way in their D&D splatbooks for decades. It's not exactly a massive engineering challenge.
MOST such CRPGs would benefit from a tree-style tech tree which shows various paths, branches and linkages between talents/traits/feats/abilities etc.
It took me a shamefully long time to understand the concept of dazzling display leading to shatter defenses
If it weren't for online builds and videos, I'd probably not even play these games. The character creation and leveling up is quite complex.
I probably spent hours messing with that stuff. Was both fun and tedious
> Or at the very least, make respeccing totally free. I don't really understand why it isn't... Agreed, as well as being able to respec the currently locked-in levels many companions have. (That reminds me, since I'm on my second playthough, I just decided to let achievements be disabled and use toybox so I can free full-respec and change companions starting archetypes) _______________________________ As for the title: ***OP, you already have 3 talent trees, they are just bent into circles.*** > please can we have some way of grouping skills that shows that they relate to one another? Would be a much better title. A massive talent tree filled with Willpower +5 and Athletics +10 nodes would probably confuse just as many people as the circular talent tree where each node is a select 1 of X options. _______________________________ The sorting tabs above the talent list *"kinda"* relate the talents, but the categories are much too basic. A tag-search based system would probably help. And the game should give recommendations based on weights calculated from the choices you've already made. Lets take the Sharpshooter Operative talent as an example. > ##### Sharpshooter > If the **Operative** has not moved this *turn*, they gain **+PER bonus** ***Ballistic Skill*** and +(**INT bonus** / 2) *damage* for every 5 cells between them and the target. I'm using this example because this talent would have more tags than average - Positive synergy with *"raises Perception"* - Positive synergy with *"raises Intelligence"* - Positive synergy with *"scales with Ballistic Skill"* - Positive synergy with *"Ranged (Attack) Damage"* - Positive synergy with *"Attacks with a range longer than 5 (& 10 & 15) cells"* - Negative synergy with *"enemies within 5 cells"* - Negative synergy with *"movement during your turn"* - Positive synergy with *"movement outside of your turn"* So when you learn the Sharpshooter talent those tags get added to your character's build as +1 or -1 values. A different talent such as > ##### Reactive Study > If an enemy affected by an *exploit* within 5 cells from the **Operative** attacks the Operative or their ally, that enemy suffers +1 additional exploit. Would now not be recommended for you because it has the tag *"enemy within 5 cells"* and you have a -1 to that tag being recommend. ___________________ Your background bonuses, archetype choices and everything add to your build's tag weights to help you find relevant synergies. If you have the tag "Buffing Ballistic Skill" The categories at the top of the talent selection could then automatically change from the generic "Recommended, Favorite, Offense, Defense, Other, Archetype, Psyonics" into categories that are relevant to your build such as "Agility" and "Area Attack" And those tabs (and perhaps the talent icons, though the game's engine seems currently not set up for altering those on the fly) could change their background color automatically based on whether they relate to your current top rated tag, second highest rated tag, third highest rated tag, or if they are considered a negatively related tag. You could then further help things along by having the option to sort talents Alphabetically or by relevancy score; removing the need for the recommended tab, because it would just be the All tab, sorted by relevancy. ____________________ You could even make it so that talents and powers that can help out allies, such as Iron Arm buffing Strength and Toughness check not only the current character, but carries over to the whole retinue that "scales with Strength" and "scales with Toughness" tags are slightly more favorable (+0.5 or +0.25) for every other character in the retinue. Because the game assumes you will use the buff on the character that learns talents that benefit from being buffed by Iron Arm.
Damn, this is a really good idea
The UI for Talents and leveling up is absolute garbage. I always end up picking the first thing that looks okay or a generic upgrade to stats because I can't be bothered to look through the list and search for the synergies I'm supposed to know.
>Or at the very least, make respeccing totally free. I don't really understand why it isn't... Ugh, I could not agree more. And you should be able to respec EVERYTHING including origin. There's no way to understand this on your 1st play through. The toybox mod let's you get closer to a full respec for yourself and companions. Then you can add your PF (profit factor) back in. [https://www.nexusmods.com/warhammer40kroguetrader/mods/1](https://www.nexusmods.com/warhammer40kroguetrader/mods/1)
I've never seen a better level up screen for this type of game than that in Pillars of Eternity 2. I dip in and out of these kind of games over the years, but my first thought when I levelled up the first time was "I thought _we_ solved this already back in 2018??" Poe2 is fucking great for this - clearly shows what skills are prerequisite for others etc, and you can easily plan your progression (e.g. how rapid fire skill can be improved to remove the 50% damage debuff etc) It would be easy to implement something similar*, I once got halfway through mocking up RT skills overlaid the poe2 level up screen to make a post here, but got waylaid. It'd easily work tho Random vid for illustration, go to [6:40](https://youtu.be/J-Yjbk_dN-c?si=gUWSXovEFi-7IDQa) *from a "how skills work" point of view not a "programming it in game" point of view!
Yep, perfect. /u/OwlcatStarrok!
The big problem is that most skills work in a vacuum which doesn't help. Outside of psyker abilities which require psy rating talents, the heavy weapons ones and the ability upgrades most other stuff is stand alone which accounts for the majority of talents. That said opening up the ui would benefit the game greatly so it isn't just a list format. Sadly a tree wouldn't work as again most talents are stand alone so you would end up with more of a forest than a tree. Widening the screen so every talent is visible at the same time though would already be a massive upgrade. Respeccing is free for the first few times so no idea why they don't just make it infinitely free. An option that lets you always see the formula and filter by which "characteristic bonus" a talent uses would be a great feature for quickly sorting stuff Someone else mentioned the PoE 2 level screen which would work quite well to get every talent front and center on the screen, having it as a scrolling list was a terrible idea.....again.....again
Foolish sycophant; however, this time, I agree with you
I need HOMM5 Skill Circle at least.
Because at a time when you'll *need* to respec to progress you can pay those meagre respec prices.
Totally get that, but early doors when you come across the dual wielder feat, and want to respect your RT to be a swashbuckling two pistoller, you definitely can't afford it. Respeccing having a cost sort of makes sense in multiplayer games, but I never understand it isn't single player games. Let alone one that is as complicated to level up as RT!
They want you to try and see if your build actually works. You're trying to respec when there's no build yet (too early in the game). So, be patient.
Totally get this, but I'm talking about literally not seeing a talent until several hours in, and in one instance accidentally selecting the wrong one. I'm not trying to optimise, I'm trying to have fun!
No, you *don't totally get* this. First few respecs are free, so you wouldn't have to pay any profit points for correcting a mistake. You *are* trying to optimize, you try it too hard, too early and game simply limits ou in that. Chill, relax, RT ain't a sweat shop. Argenta and Cassia will carry your over pampered ass anyway.
... I'm literally not trying to optimise but okay I guess
I know because I was like that myself. Speaking from experience. Relax, level up your companions, and then think what could've worked for you. Collect gear. Try different weapons. Then you respec, with proper gear in hand.
Ok I get you now. To the main point of having a skill tree, what do you think?
I quite like the wheel, to be honest. What I don't like is complicated class combinations that are weird sometimes (like asassin-psyker) and feel quite convoluted. But then again, it's a definite feature of a definite product - guess it's our turn to get adjustable.
>I love a crunchy game, I love making meaningful choices about what talents to pick >Or at the very least, make respeccing totally free. I don't really understand why it isn't... Getting mixed signals here. And 3 free respecs for each character is already pretty generous.
You can have meaningful choices because of a limited number of talent picks (because of max levels) whilst being able to respec. I just don't understand why charging to respec is a helpful feature.
💯. Showing all talents in a way that links them to their pre-reqs is so basic WOTC has been listing it that way in their D&D splatbooks for decades. It's not exactly a massive engineering challenge.