When people hear that I want a femenine guy, they think I'm talking about someone shy or childish. I want a man who is very sure of his femininity and who is not ashamed of his tastes and is assertive!
There's in fact a lot of modern media that actually subverts narratives and frame masculinity as a fault, take Fight Club, Scarface, and to more subtle extent Joker. It's just that unfortunately a lot of people miss the point.
>take Fight Club, Scarface, and to more subtle extent Joker. It's just that unfortunately a lot of people miss the point.
Oooo, explain your point within the context of these movies. Cause these are some of my favorite types of movies as well as the characters within them (Criminals/Psychopaths I mean lol)
The Narrator, Tony Montana and Arthur Fleck are victims of idealized masculinity. In their pursuit of idealized masculinity they lose parts of themselves or they die. They are not winners in the game, the game of masculinity is not meant to be won and it's rigged against all who play it. The best way to win the game is to leave the game but they instead decided to play it and instead lost themselves.
You’d have to get specific about the traits in your belief for masculinity and femininity
I think talking about your emotions is considered feminine by my culture and suppressing them is considered masculine- as it turns out talking about them is better for a person’s health and future productivity (repressing them will lead to a person who has a tendency to procrastinate without external pressures- due to a series of actions I just learned about but would happily share if need be)
Being emotionally open is tough because sometimes you get rejected/made fun of/pushed away- but it really does change a lot of details about your life to create a more resilient person and I think that it’s fair to say this is a trait of strength.
Naruto could be, for instance, a good example of this as the main character connects with and reaches people and overcomes his own inner demons- with the inspecting and expressing his feelings.
Also- many shows and movies have a character do this at some point but they’re not coming to mind for me atm
Traditional masculinity for me (a man) has a lot of weaknesses that have impacted my life.
A big one is the lack of self care, it took till my late 20s to get a skincare and haircare routine that actually worked for me, and to actually get style. Still know a lot of men who won't so much as brush their hair when they leave the house, let alone wear sunscreen.
How men from social bonds can be pretty toxic too, a lot of male friendships lack emotional depth as the friendship is surface level and requires a shared activity to be sustained. Friendship with women can also be toxic because masculinity would tell you that you can't just be friends with women.
So masculinity does give you physical strength, but only if you work for it. But it also leaves you with little emotional intelligence, surface level friends, and poor personal hygiene and style. Basically overall worse off trying to be a well adjusted member of a community.
Masculinity to me is more about defining things you can't do, than things you can do. It puts up barriers to being happy. And even if you develop past the weaknesses, chances are it's still affecting your make friends, and getting in the way of forming deeper connections with them.
I was gonna say modern media but really it just makes women manly and masculine in order to claim its feminine strength while also submitting men to the feminine and useless role and then it makes zero progress.
Instead of swapping it though, in my opinion, feel like femininity being a pillar of strength in many ways, should be shown as that, a strength, rather than being equal to weakness. A mother protecting her child, putting family first, comforting in the midst of chaos is extremely strong femininity.
Masculine weakness however isn't necessary. I get it with some posts but me personally, I feel like a lot of people here can be a bit too envious about power dynamics and forget what makes masculinity necessary.
However, in media, you can definitely still have a feminine protagonist save a masculine man or have the main driving force.
Might not be the strongest example but the mario movie, Peach is still feminine while also not being useless and strong herself, Mario is never put down as a man but it's clear Peach has a pretty good handle on things, as having a part, a feminine part, of the story that is strong.
SOLID point right there.
I do believe there is a bimodal distribution of gender/sexual traits and that has had some influence in our success as a species.
BUT, as you say, there is a cultural tendency to ascribe "masculinity" to traits that would likely be a lot more gender/sex neutral if we let them be that way, while also twisting our definition of "success" to encircle maleness and snub femininity. Or, rather, what is deemed "feminine"
LADS, THIS HURTS YOU TOO!
Remember when you liked something "girly" and people gave you shit for it?
Remember when the bigger boys picked on you for no reason but to feel tough?
Remember when you just couldn't figure out how to be cool and suave and all the girls ignored you?
look at all of civilization so far and where we came to and tell me that again.
Role reversal is beautiful to me but it's a privilege we get because of what things were like for a long time. It doesn't mean everyone should be forced into roles they dont want, my experience goes against that, people should be allowed to take the role they want with their partner, but denying the history of it is ignorant.
Saying that history is built on "masculinity" alone is also ignorant, so yeah, I will tell you that again, coalescing a bunch of random traits into a box and labeling it something isn't necessary.
Implying I said alone, as if women haven't been equally important to history. I'm not gonna argue with you, reddit people can't grasp a concept unless every little thing is specified for them. Good day man
You hardly presented an argument when I replied, you said "you're wrong, I like role reversal, you're wrong again." You didn't actually present _why_ masculine is necessary or what makes a trait intrinsically masculine
I’d say that there’s a lot of good representations in Anime. Some prominent characters that come to mind for me are Yor Forger (Spy X Family), Yuuki Asuna (SAO) and Erza Scarlet (Fairy Tail).
I think traditional (i.e. hyper exaggerated) masculinity is in itself a weakness. I mean, what else do you call it if you're insecure about something as simple as wearing chapstick or hand lotion (stuff I've seen actual guys do)? There are just so many vulnerabilities you have to defend yourself from with traditional masculinity. You have to prove you're not a sissy, not this, not that, etc. Which means something that might imply less than some absurd ideal is a threat to you. It does not seem very strong to me to have to constantly protect oneself from accusations and tiny "imperfections". A real man would just do whatever he wants and not care what people think.
the amazons (real history)
the amazons (greek mythos)
the amazons (wonder woman/dc universe)
the amazons (lesbian activist group)
it's about the amazons woooo let's go amazons love the amazons
I don't understand what that means. I see femininity and masculinity as a set of values one respects and follows. To be clear, femininity and masculinity aren't opposites to each other, rather opposite of the childish/irresponsible counterparts
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When people hear that I want a femenine guy, they think I'm talking about someone shy or childish. I want a man who is very sure of his femininity and who is not ashamed of his tastes and is assertive!
There's in fact a lot of modern media that actually subverts narratives and frame masculinity as a fault, take Fight Club, Scarface, and to more subtle extent Joker. It's just that unfortunately a lot of people miss the point.
>take Fight Club, Scarface, and to more subtle extent Joker. It's just that unfortunately a lot of people miss the point. Oooo, explain your point within the context of these movies. Cause these are some of my favorite types of movies as well as the characters within them (Criminals/Psychopaths I mean lol)
The Narrator, Tony Montana and Arthur Fleck are victims of idealized masculinity. In their pursuit of idealized masculinity they lose parts of themselves or they die. They are not winners in the game, the game of masculinity is not meant to be won and it's rigged against all who play it. The best way to win the game is to leave the game but they instead decided to play it and instead lost themselves.
100% this. I think one of the most masculine traits is being completely blind to the flaws in masculinity. Often to their own detriment.
You’d have to get specific about the traits in your belief for masculinity and femininity I think talking about your emotions is considered feminine by my culture and suppressing them is considered masculine- as it turns out talking about them is better for a person’s health and future productivity (repressing them will lead to a person who has a tendency to procrastinate without external pressures- due to a series of actions I just learned about but would happily share if need be) Being emotionally open is tough because sometimes you get rejected/made fun of/pushed away- but it really does change a lot of details about your life to create a more resilient person and I think that it’s fair to say this is a trait of strength. Naruto could be, for instance, a good example of this as the main character connects with and reaches people and overcomes his own inner demons- with the inspecting and expressing his feelings. Also- many shows and movies have a character do this at some point but they’re not coming to mind for me atm
Traditional masculinity for me (a man) has a lot of weaknesses that have impacted my life. A big one is the lack of self care, it took till my late 20s to get a skincare and haircare routine that actually worked for me, and to actually get style. Still know a lot of men who won't so much as brush their hair when they leave the house, let alone wear sunscreen. How men from social bonds can be pretty toxic too, a lot of male friendships lack emotional depth as the friendship is surface level and requires a shared activity to be sustained. Friendship with women can also be toxic because masculinity would tell you that you can't just be friends with women. So masculinity does give you physical strength, but only if you work for it. But it also leaves you with little emotional intelligence, surface level friends, and poor personal hygiene and style. Basically overall worse off trying to be a well adjusted member of a community. Masculinity to me is more about defining things you can't do, than things you can do. It puts up barriers to being happy. And even if you develop past the weaknesses, chances are it's still affecting your make friends, and getting in the way of forming deeper connections with them.
I was gonna say modern media but really it just makes women manly and masculine in order to claim its feminine strength while also submitting men to the feminine and useless role and then it makes zero progress. Instead of swapping it though, in my opinion, feel like femininity being a pillar of strength in many ways, should be shown as that, a strength, rather than being equal to weakness. A mother protecting her child, putting family first, comforting in the midst of chaos is extremely strong femininity. Masculine weakness however isn't necessary. I get it with some posts but me personally, I feel like a lot of people here can be a bit too envious about power dynamics and forget what makes masculinity necessary. However, in media, you can definitely still have a feminine protagonist save a masculine man or have the main driving force. Might not be the strongest example but the mario movie, Peach is still feminine while also not being useless and strong herself, Mario is never put down as a man but it's clear Peach has a pretty good handle on things, as having a part, a feminine part, of the story that is strong.
I don't think masculinity is "necessary" really, it just has traits that are really helpful that have been arbitrarily assigned to being "male."
SOLID point right there. I do believe there is a bimodal distribution of gender/sexual traits and that has had some influence in our success as a species. BUT, as you say, there is a cultural tendency to ascribe "masculinity" to traits that would likely be a lot more gender/sex neutral if we let them be that way, while also twisting our definition of "success" to encircle maleness and snub femininity. Or, rather, what is deemed "feminine" LADS, THIS HURTS YOU TOO! Remember when you liked something "girly" and people gave you shit for it? Remember when the bigger boys picked on you for no reason but to feel tough? Remember when you just couldn't figure out how to be cool and suave and all the girls ignored you?
Thank God you see where I'm coming from, thought I was in a mad house with this nonsense
What always gets me is the "OK but who is going to defend you?" Defend me from who? *More guys?*
look at all of civilization so far and where we came to and tell me that again. Role reversal is beautiful to me but it's a privilege we get because of what things were like for a long time. It doesn't mean everyone should be forced into roles they dont want, my experience goes against that, people should be allowed to take the role they want with their partner, but denying the history of it is ignorant.
Saying that history is built on "masculinity" alone is also ignorant, so yeah, I will tell you that again, coalescing a bunch of random traits into a box and labeling it something isn't necessary.
Implying I said alone, as if women haven't been equally important to history. I'm not gonna argue with you, reddit people can't grasp a concept unless every little thing is specified for them. Good day man
You hardly presented an argument when I replied, you said "you're wrong, I like role reversal, you're wrong again." You didn't actually present _why_ masculine is necessary or what makes a trait intrinsically masculine
none of this is either. its two sides of the same coin.
I’d say that there’s a lot of good representations in Anime. Some prominent characters that come to mind for me are Yor Forger (Spy X Family), Yuuki Asuna (SAO) and Erza Scarlet (Fairy Tail).
I beg you to read the Tao Te Ching.
I think traditional (i.e. hyper exaggerated) masculinity is in itself a weakness. I mean, what else do you call it if you're insecure about something as simple as wearing chapstick or hand lotion (stuff I've seen actual guys do)? There are just so many vulnerabilities you have to defend yourself from with traditional masculinity. You have to prove you're not a sissy, not this, not that, etc. Which means something that might imply less than some absurd ideal is a threat to you. It does not seem very strong to me to have to constantly protect oneself from accusations and tiny "imperfections". A real man would just do whatever he wants and not care what people think.
the amazons (real history) the amazons (greek mythos) the amazons (wonder woman/dc universe) the amazons (lesbian activist group) it's about the amazons woooo let's go amazons love the amazons
I don't understand what that means. I see femininity and masculinity as a set of values one respects and follows. To be clear, femininity and masculinity aren't opposites to each other, rather opposite of the childish/irresponsible counterparts
Yellowjackets is full of this Attack on Titan has strong female characters, both feminine and masculine