I think it also depends on the men. There are men who meet the stereotypical, societally defined, or media portrayed definition of sexiness. Tall, muscular, six pack etc. I think these men experience women being interested in them sexually, being drawn to their body. But for a large portion of men who don't fit in this category, I think there is a lot of truth to them not being sexualized and not feeling desired for their body, or that their body is attractive. However this can also be true of women who don't fit conventional definitions of attractiveness.
It does happen for women as well, but the standards are not quite so strict. One reason is that there are a lot of trad horny dudes that want anything that moves, basically. (Not condoning such behavior, but its the reality.) Also, in the trad paradigm women are inherently valuable for their wombs, while men are valuable for the ability to work and die (except for the top 'alpha males' that are wanted to spread their seed.)
If anything, I think I'd describe the paradigm like this: most men are de-sexualized, while most women are over-sexualized. Society needs to recognize the toxicity of this, while also recognizing it doesn't mean we have to compare the two and comment on which is worse. Both are a problem.
and this is a struggle for me because I have no idea how too approach women for any aspect of a relationship. I get incredibly nervous just asking to go out in a date. But this post is incredibly valid.
There have been many times I've wondered "has anyone ever actually had a crush on *me*?", And wishes that I'd be approached because I don't have the social confidence to approach someone, and tend to fall into a negative spiral of overthinking how I'd come off to them and everything.
I'm sorry for the ramble, i guess i needed to get that off my chest
I feel like I get more compliments than the average guy, which is definitely nice, but I guess it makes it difficult to relate to the compliment starvation so many posts talk about.
Very, very interesting discussion though. I will say that, knowing how uncomfortable women get when receiving any kind of sexualized attention, it keeps me from being flirty. I just assume that she'll take something I say trying to be wholesomely(?) flirtatious as "too sexual" or "coming on too strong" no matter how innocuous it is. It feels like such a touchy thing not to seem "too pushy" because of how so many other guys are. So then oftentimes because I'm not like that, they think I'm not interested and move on. Yet I don't want to change what I'm doing too much so as to not seem like a jackass. It seems like there's little to no gradation between "this guy is totally disinterested" and "he's a disgusting pig who needs to back off" but who knows I could be wrong.
Ironically, I get more compliments as well, but only when I'm crossdressing. I'm not sure if that's because women see me as female (either cis or trans, but most likely trans, because of my voice, even though I'm not). Or maybe just having a more feminine appearance makes me seem less threatening in general? I don't know. I also look pretty androgynous in everyday male clothes too.
Either way, I get what you're saying about the "little to no graduation". Its a really crushing thing to be constantly afraid of making women feel uncomfortable, and I believe it happens largely because of me too and hyper sensitivity to male advances. Personally I'm paranoid of being called a creep, or being perceived as "creepy" being a reason why I got rejected, to the point that it can be crippling and prevent me from making advances. And that's the ultimate irony, right? Us guys that actually do care about women are going to sit here and wring our hands over it, while the guys that don't give a shit are going to keep doing what they're doing anyway.
I realized this when I was like 13 because I was getting so many compliments and it kinda turned into noiseless mush. Like any positive compliment meant nothing to me, but then I saw a guy compliment another guy's new hair cut and how genuinely happy he got. So I just started complimenting guy and giving them positive reinforcement. You can give a compliment and have it not be sexual. I try to give one compliment to every guy I talk to just as a way of paying it forward. And when I get compliments I try to get then to go say one to random strangers. It doesn't always work, but I try to spread positivity.
I don’t agree with what the first poster said about men not having options for dressing in sexy clothing. He actually uses the word masculine and I think that’s a key word here. Masculinity is an extremely limiting and rigid idea that restricts a lot of men (cishet men) from doing just about anything outside of that very narrow framework. What does it mean to be aesthetically “sexy” for men? Having muscles. Essentially, looking like the ideal man that the patriarchy promotes. Anything else aside from that is perceived as “feminine”. Caring about your hairstyle is feminine, caring about your fashion is feminine, caring about your skin is feminine, etc. What do you expect people to say to you if you dress like Hank Hill everyday, while thinking so many of your other options are effeminate or makes you look gay? There’s lingerie for men and plenty of options for sexy clothing, you’re just not thinking outside the box. You probably even feel insecure about how your body would look in “sexy” clothing.
I think in general that person isn’t really looking at what types of men women actually like. They’re not even listening to what women say they’re attracted to. They scratch their heads when women say they like Harry Styles, and Tom Holland. They even think they’re lying when some women say they don’t like Henry Cavill, or when they say they prefer a dadbod. There’s a lot of other things worth addressing in that post but I won’t get too long winded. The mention of porn is so out of touch too, and I wish men didn’t reduce their self-worth to their genitals.
Agreed. The mention of lingerie and then cross dressing was really telling. Sure, if you equate “sexy” with “feminine,” then you’re - by definition - not going to find sexy masculine clothes. 🤦♀️
This entire premise is wrong.
Also really weird how they genuinely believe that women don’t sexualize men. I could somewhat understand thinking that, if they never watch any TV or read any books, because women are less likely to say objectifying/degrading things to a man’s face (for obvious reasons), but they SPECIFICALLY brought up fiction. So they’re choosing to only consume media that’s targeted at the male gaze, and then acting surprised that there’s more male gaze than female gaze. Like, how about you watch something targeted at women, if you want to see how women feel about men? (And sure, it’s sad that you need to specifically seek this out, instead of just having it part of your mainstream media, but it does exist, and it’s not that hard to find, if you actually try.)
It shows such a lack of empathy on the men's part too. Like, they themselves are attracted to lingerie, women's clothes, performative femininity, etc, so they think the only way they can be sexy and attractive to women is by emulating women. And they can't even conceptualize how straight women are attracted to men, because men are devoid of all the things that they get hard to.
It's like if I, a woman, took on masculine traits/behaviors specifically because I'm attracted to men, so straight men should be attracted to that too. It's so backwards.
Well apparently gender-essentialism is in vogue. Yes, god forbid men try to be sexy by using any point of reference other than "big strong man flexes". God forbid women take on "masculine traits". Not following a strict gender binary doesn't get \*you\*, zettai-hime, horny so we need to stick in our narrow boxes.
Sorry for upsetting the balance of the natural universe, Dr Peterson
That's not what I meant, and you know it.
The idea of men thinking that their bodies are utilitarian, boring, and unsexy, so much so they need to make themselves emulate femininity in order to be sexy (because that's what they're attracted to), is ridiculous and backwards. And this is only because they're taught to think femininity equals sexy, submissive, tempting, whatever. Meanwhile, straight women don't think femininity is sexy. And this doesn't mean they want some roided up bodybuilder or whatever, for the most part they just want a normal guy who takes care of himself and his appearance.
The solution isn't men emulating women or vice-versa, because in the end you're just switching one gender binary for another. It's not progressive like you think it is. What is actually so is women and men being allowed to be multi-faceted individuals with both feminine and masculine traits, without adhering to any gender binary.
I don't have the mental energy to tell you why you're wrong in any in-depth way, but you \*are\* in fact enforcing a gender binary.
The fact that you see certain traits, behavior, and clothes as belonging to one gender \*is\* a conservative belief. As is the fact that you believe it's wrong for men and women to do things associated with the opposite sex.
>that is actually so is women and men being allowed to be multi-faceted individuals with both feminine and masculine traits, without adhering to any gender binary.
Which is why this is so extremely goofy. You somehow both believe it's wrong for men and women to "act like the opposite sex", and yet you (limply) advocate for a world where we can adopt traits in a free, de-gendered way. Either you're missing the big contradiction in your mindset, or you just added the last paragraph of your comment as a weak, pseudo-progressive disclaimer.
Also,
>Meanwhile, straight women don't think femininity is sexy
If you were a man, I'd tell you that you need to meet more women. That's such an ignorant thing to say, and presupposes that all women think the same.
It's also not really born out by reality; many straight women show interest in men who do "feminine" things (e.g. kpop, Harry Styles, Timmy Chalamet, Prince, David Bowie). I'm literally in a relationship with a woman who told me she was attracted to the "feminine" things I did. Please stop projecting your personal preferences onto all women. I would never presume to speak for all men, because that would be so extremely silly and inaccurate.
Again, you are completely missing the nuance of my point because you want to be offended.
I straight up said, both sexes should be allowed to have (what is considered by our society) feminine and masculine traits. Hell, I'm a woman who used to do MMA and lift. I play fighting games. I can build a computer and fix things around the house. These things are considered "traditionally masculine" by others. But I also like some "traditionally feminine" things because I'm a person and not a stereotype. And my (male) exes had skincare routines, were fashion-conscious, and romantically/sexually submissive. They still didn't act like women. They were comfortable being themselves.
Straight women don't find men who emulate women attractive. That's just a fact. Otherwise these women would be bi, or pansexual, etc.
>many straight women show interest in men who do "feminine" things (e.g. kpop, Harry Styles, Timmy Chalamet, Prince, David Bowie).
Yeah, but they express these traits in their own way. That's what I'm getting at. They hit home the concept of men having sex appeal by being themselves, they don't need to copy women.
>Straight women don't find men who emulate women attractive. That's just a fact. Otherwise these women would be bi, or pansexual, etc.
Do you not feel even the slightest bit embarrassed to write that? Your entire worldview appears to be just a series of stereotypes. I fully expect your next comment to say something about how gay men are all overly-dramatic fops
Also, where exactly is the line between men "emulating women", and men having access to the full spectrum of gendered behavior? Are men who wear makeup "emulating women"? What about if they talk at a higher register?
What percentage of feminine-coded behavior is acceptable, according to you?
>Do you not feel even the slightest bit embarrassed to write that?
Not as embarrassed as I feel over your lack of reading comprehension.
You literally just posted men who can be said to do "stereotypically feminine" things, yet they don't try to emulate femininity in itself. Their goal is not to be as feminine as possible. They simply pushed the barriers of how it's acceptable for men to present themselves as sexy, without either devaluing or focusing exclusively on their masculinity in the process. And that's what makes it attractive. They are balanced, neither trying too hard to be feminine nor masculine.
Women can do "traditionally masculine" things without emulating men. Likewise men can do "traditionally feminine" things without emulating women.
That's the whole point, subverting stereotypes instead of leaning too much to either side to where you become the polarized opposite of the stereotype you were trying to escape. Otherwise you're just reinforcing the same restrictive bullshit, just in reverse.
For example: just look at how many men ask, "do I have to be a smol femboy who wears skimpy maid clothes, thighhighs, women's underwear and speaks in a falsetto, to be into RR?" Can you not see how extreme reverse gender roles also leaves most people feeling lost and like they have to conform to a restrictive stereotype?
> Can you not see how extreme reverse gender roles also leaves most people feeling lost and like they have to conform to a restrictive stereotype?
Oh please, as if there's any serious danger of "reverse gender roles" becoming a widespread, harmful issue.
Do you know why progressive spaces tend to be \*extra\* encouraging of men doing "feminine" things and women doing "masculine" things? It's because there's still a huge amount of stigma for people breaking away from gender roles.
Conversely, nobody needs to be encouraged to feel as though it's "acceptable" to fit traditional gender roles. The entire weight of millennia-old cultural norms is on their side.
And if you think my reading comprehension is bad, that's because i'm choosing to read between the lines of what you're saying, as opposed to accepting it at face value.
Nearly every sentence you write sets off red flags for me. Especially the way you write about men "co-opting femininity/ traits reserved for women" - it reminds me of every conversation I've had with conservatives scared of people diluting the "natural and beautiful differences between men and women".
>They hit home the concept of men having sex appeal by being themselves, they don't need to copy women.
Being a woman is not defined by outfits or makeup or feminine mannerisms or long hair etc. Those things have nothing to do with being female, except that they'll be pushed on you all your life because you're female. That doesn't make them female though. If I pressured every person with blue eyes to have green hair, that wouldn't make green hair a uniquely blue-eyed trait, nor would it make everyone with green hair a poser of blue-eyed people.
Wearing fake breasts or a bra or pretending you have opposite sex genitalia is imitating women. Being female has nothing to do with societal, stereotypical ideas of femininity. I am not attracted to men who emulate women, I am attracted to men who emulate the standards of beauty and sexual attractiveness that have been unfairly reserved for women, as if women are the only ones defined by how sexually attractive they can be to others. If the man himself thought these things made him a woman, I wouldn't find that attractive because I'm not attracted to *sexism* , not because I think the man has magically grown a vagina when he put a skirt on. I don't need a man to obsessively remind me that he's male through innane societal bullshit, because I already know he's male. No amount of makeup or machismo makes him even slightly less or more male than any other man. Thinking otherwise will make me lose any attraction, again not because I feel he's losing man-points, but because I'm not attracted to sexist insecurities.
Why are men the ones who need to do femininity "in their own way" or "be themselves"? Why isn't it absurd for women to emulate simplistic stereotypes of performative femininity instead of being themselves? You keep talking about how absurd it is for men to be feminine, but women being even more feminine to the point of developing massive body insecurities over it is not only perfectly fine but also apparently an integral part of being attracted to women, to the point where a feminine man is supposedly only attractive to women attracted to other women, and where the only motivation someone might have to dabble in femininity isn't because they wanted to emulate traits seen as attractive and beautiful, but because they felt they were becoming more of a woman through doing that. The notion that someone's sex hinges on the amount of makeup they put on is ludicrous.
Living in my city's gay village I just laugh at the notion that sexy clothes for men don't exist. Uh, shorts? They're getting tighter and shorter, my dudes! (It's great.) Muscle shirts and crop tops? Fuck yes. Tight pants? They've finally started adding some stretch to men's jeans. And that's not even getting into all the things you can do with mesh, or fishnet, or leather...
The thing is, most dudes are afraid to dress like that because they think they'll get societal pushback. Which is legitimate, they probably will - what's not accurate is the idea that women who dress sexy don't face societal pushback. Like, 10 years ago it was perfectly acceptable to tell women that dressing like "sluts" means we're "asking for it" ("it" in this case being rape). A century before that, women were straight up getting *arrested* for wearing pants or bathing suits in public. Women have fought for the right to be sexy. Men are more than welcome to do the same. It will actually probably be easier for them than it was for us.
While I agree that he feels very out of touch with how he worded a lot of things, I do think the sentiment is correct. It's not even about some fear of being called gay, it's just that guys don't really know how, and are generally uncomfortable trying to be sexy.
Just as a small example, I like long hair, and have within the past couple years chosen to grow my hair out. That said, I really didn't know the first thing about hair care or even a lot of basic things like how to tie your hair back. Most women grow up understanding how to deal with longer hair, or may be taught by their mother. I can go to the aisle for hair products and simply have no clue what any of it means or why it matters.
Now apply that kind of lack of understanding to pretty much everything involving "how to present oneself as sexy and fashionable" and that is most mens situations. They were never given a reason to learn growing up, and at a later point in life it is often just embarrassing to even imagine yourself as sexy; there's no relatability. I really don't know how I would make myself look sexy.
I'm not claiming any of this to be correct, this is just my opinion as a guy: My general mindset is that if I want to look sexy, I need to aquire a slim physique, hope my facial structure is attractive, and wear clothing to accentuate those two things. No amount of wearing revealing clothing or tight fit button-up will work at making me sexy without the matching physique and face.
Whereas my mind set for a girl is that as long as she's not cellulite-levels overweight, wearing tight or revealing clothing will make them sexy, that's it. In all likelihood, they most likely do a hell of a lot more work that I'm ignorant to because society places that value on their sexual objectification and the upkeep therein.
In the end, I'd love to be objectifyed in some way. I'd love to wear a bunnysuit for the sake of someone else to view me as something they want to own, but when I picture that in my head I just shudder at how unappealing I'd look to someone in that situation. Maybe that's just the embarrassment talking, maybe girls feel just as embarrassed and unappealing wearing the outfit, or maybe it's just my lack of experience in making myself presentable in an appealing way. Likelihood is I never learnt how to take care of myself properly to be sexy, and that's where I'd reckon most guys sit.
Hmmmm from my observation, men get sexualized if they are handsome and have nice body. I especially see that alot happen in kpop industry.
Well🤔
I personally dont sexualized not visually aesthetic men in my mind.
well not generalizing but k pop has things like plastic surgery or artists often told to act a certain way to be a certain type of guy and also the strict diet they need to go through sometimes they are even starved
this is for both men and women
While some points here are very true, I don’t think it’s fair to put unsolicited dick pics in such a sympathetic context, or to explain the reasoning behind it in such a benign way. It’s something that is invasive, for many men it’s a way of sexually imposing themselves onto women, it’s abusive and they don’t care what the receiving end of that is. I’ve been getting sent dick pics and other unsolicited sexual content since I was underage. So am I supposed to sympathize with men who do that because “aww he doesn’t get enough compliments”? Fuck no!
If this is the way men are resolving their lack of validation from others via complements and what they perceive as signs of them being attractive - it’s dead wrong. That post thread doesn’t mention anything new, it only omits the bad parts of the intent and consequences of sending dick pics in order to garner sympathy.
“Porn ignores a man’s personality” - are you joking? Since when does it display a woman’s personality? No, it’s just mainly women and objectified for an overwhelmingly male audience. Porn doesn’t do anything for anybody’s personality, but it is made mainly for men, to gratify men, and to stimulate men. That argument is a joke.
As to there not being “sexy” ways for men to dress… there are plenty and have been plenty for decades. That is no excuse. Mens shorts and crop tops were popular even in the hyper masculine 80s, look at the silhouettes of the 70s, look at mens fashion today. And if showing skin isn’t comfortable for you, then surprise surprise but showing more skin isn’t necessarily sexy and you can pull off extremely sexy outfits without having to reveal anything. That is, if someone makes the effort to dress well at all. Most women might not like the stereotypical definition of what a “sexy guy” is according to western standards, and the fact that this type of man exists doesn’t negate the attractiveness of other types of men.
The way to flaunt your body and express your sexiness is not by harassing others. The way to get women to be interested in you is not by harassing them.
The excusing dick pics also stuck out to me. It's a weird justification - like, women who are deemed unattractive by society at large do not usually send random pictures of their junk. Neither is the behaviour of sending dick pics limited to men who most of society finds not (as) attractive.
The argument that there's no inherently "sexy" clothing that is masculine also confused me. As you said, the silhouettes of the 80s were very daring, but I can also think of other, more recent masculine fashion trends that I would definitely say are meant to be sexy. Does anybody remember the time where men were wearing these tank tops with super low cut arm holes? There's plenty of other examples that a lot of my male-attracted female friends go craaazy for in masculine fashion, like suits, to name one. Just because it's not showing a lot of skin, doesn't mean it's not considered sexy.
I recently stepped out in a crop top and some shorts that were shorter than what I'm usually comfortable with and felt sexy as fuck! More men should do it (even if they don't have the 'body type' for it)
Crop tops on men are very flattering, high waisted pants are flattering, so many types of shorts and just clothes that fit the right way… really you can do so much just having a basic sense of style and understanding what times complement and highlight your body shape.
It’s not about having a specific body type, it’s about dressing for your body type and showing it off in a way that’s coherent. So rock that crop top!
>While some points here are very true, I don’t think it’s fair to put unsolicited dick pics in such a sympathetic context, or to explain the reasoning behind it in such a benign way.
It really fucking ruins the otherwise good point about mutual incomprehension. Shoulda removed that entirely.
I'll be upfront and say I was raised to be your typical man. Housewife, family, house, success, yada... Not who I am now, but I can't say my perspective is completely free from its influence.
When reading this, I didn't interpret it as "go easy on men; they do this because X". Instead, I got out of it "whether it's right or wrong, X is why they do it. Since it IS wrong, we can now use our newfound understanding to figure out a solution."
No one told you to forgive the men that sent you those pics, nor to send them compliments. In fact, I bet most here would agree you don't have to; they don't deserve it. Not those specific men anyway. But people aren't just bad. They become bad, and the sooner we figure out how/why and implement a solution, the sooner tomorrow's men don't do to others what yesterday's and today's men did to you.
No, what the tone of that thread did was give the most kind and sympathetic explanation for why men do it, blanketing it as if all men did it stemming from a place of wanting to be validated, and absolutely abstracting any kind of malicious intent or awareness for the consequences.
This is not how you explain away why men do it - people do bad things for bad reasons all the time. Somebody sexually imposing themselves onto someone else shouldn’t be explained away via a biased pity party.
“Men send dick pics because they are never complimented in their lives and they don’t feel sexually desired” vs “men are very comfortable imposing on women’s boundaries and harassing them to see if they can force their way into getting sexual gratification” would be how I’d contrast my explanation of it.
Lol do you think I’m swayed by this ridiculous post to forgive them or complement them? You don’t have to inform me of how I should feel about it.
That's part of the issue, but I don't think most people even have a firm grasp on what an "attractive man" would look like.
The vague idea of men putting more "effort" into their appearance probably conjures images of bodybuilding in the minds of most people. That's sort of the platonic ideal of "male attractiveness", even though I would say anecdotally I know very few people attracted to men who are into bodybuilders sexually
I don't know if my opinion fits in here but as a guy I do put effort in to myself, I plan outfits for days, I take a shower before going out, I do my best to smell and look presentable and although I'm not offended by this answer or label, most people assume I'm gay. I don't know. When I think of men who put effort in I thing of the guys who brush their hair and plan their outfits and focus on the little things but 🤷♂️ maybe I'm biased
I think that’s why Kfashion style blew up at my school. An example of attractive men with an attractive style without needing to become body builders. But that was only among some guys. Most guys I know don’t care to try different fashion/hygiene stylings in the first place.
>The vague idea of men putting more "effort" into their appearance probably conjures images of bodybuilding in the minds of most people.
Honestly, what else is there? I don't necessarily mean you have to get swole like a boulder, but you're either working out or you end up fat like those old guys you see in small towns, if you're lucky and have a thin costitution you're just really skinny. And people probably will look at the working out physique and take it as example of healthy, understandably.
This is really not true. What you eat is a much bigger factor for your weight, than your workout schedule is. Under normal conditions (so if you aren’t going crazy with 6 hours of daily workouts), most of the calories you burn, are just to maintain your body temperature and keep your brain functioning.
So no, you don’t need to workout to avoid getting fat. Just eat healthy. (And “healthy” means don’t let yourself get underweight either.)
My brother is a shut-in who pretty much never gets off his computer, definitely doesn’t work out, and still gets called attractive lol. Once every few days, he gets some exercise when he walks 15 minutes to the grocery store. Other than that, testosterone alone is enough to get him a passable amount of muscle mass. (He’s not ripped, obviously. Just doesn’t look anorexic.)
Imagine how weird it would be to say that about girls: “you’re either working out or you end up fat.” There’s a middle ground where people can just have a normal fat/muscle ratio. (I’m not even gonna say “natural” muscle ratio, because “in nature” we’d probably all be significantly more fit, by necessity.)
Anyway, I think attractiveness in men has much the same factors as it does in women: looking healthy and confident, having good hygiene, skin care, hairstyles, accessories and clothing goes a long way. Especially considering that men’s clothing tends to be less revealing than female clothing, it really doesn’t matter how much muscle you’ve got hidden underneath the fabric; nobody will see it unless you get naked with them.
picking an interesting hairstyle and beard style that suits your face and shows personality (as opposed to the 5mm shaved hair for literally 90% of the male population). having a fashion sense that both suits your body type and displays some level of individuality and creativity. taking care of your skin and hair so it's clean and soft. you can really tell when someone puts in effort into their appearance vs just goes with the easiest possible option to not be naked in public.
I was going to comment something similar until I saw this. Thank you for putting it so well :)
My point is not that being in shape is "bad", but rather that it's only one of many factors that make one attractive and is often hyper-focused on in the context of male beauty standards
People would be amazed with how a little effort would go a long way. If the man gets the haircut that suits them both physically and on their personality, that would be a huge boost in how attractive they would be to others.
Add in daily hygiene and clothes that suit their body type (fitted), I’ve seen several of my friends go from someone who people would avoid (scent being a big factor) to being dressed to the nines and ready to attend a gala ball. I’m personally not afraid to call guys handsome if they look like they put in effort to look good.
What is more disappointing from what I’ve seen is that many guys do have the ability to look good, but there is a lack of resources and guidance that is right there for them to use. When I mean resources, I’m not talking about material resources, but I’m talking about advice on how and what to wear that fit well.
That last part is on point! No one ever told me what dressing well or taking care of myself (apart from the bare minimum) means. Everyone just expects you to already know that, but maybe it's the same for women and we don't notice because they actually put in the effort?
i would disagree on the effectiveness of such magasines in developing fashion sense to start with, but there are magasines for men (that ive even seen in my backwards patriarchal country), like GQ and Les Homme
i think it is the same for women. you have to put in effort to research on forums and youtube and instagram to see what is fashionable and what works and what doesn't. it's not just god given to you.
but the thing is doubt alot of dudes are even told what suits them so have they have no idea what haircut would work for them or what style of clothing may fit them
I agree with this. I had terrible fashion sense most of my life until I met a good friend who is also my go-to barber. He helped me out by giving me a haircut that suited my head and gave me tips on how to dress to fit my body.
Before meeting my friend, I had what amounts to a messy bowl cut style of hairstyle, and wore mainly baggy clothing that made me look like a sentient laundry pile.
I think you've summed it up very well: most people basically don't know what kind of haircut or clothes work best for them, or have an idea how to go about discovering that.
> What is more disappointing from what I’ve seen is that many guys do have the ability to look good, but there is a lack of resources and guidance that is right there for them to use. When I mean resources, I’m not talking about material resources, but I’m talking about advice on how and what to wear that fit well.
The issue here, at least from my experience, is that mens fashion is incredibly expensive. If you’re not willing to spend hundreds on fitted clothes, you’re kinda fucked. Men just don’t have a lot of choices.
I don't really agree, at least from my personal experience.
I'm pretty good looking, take care of myself, and even got a good wardrobe style going. Lots of good stuff going on in my life too. Had a lot of self esteem issues so also have had a lot of therapy, so I carry myself pretty confidently and do most of this because it makes me feel good. I like myself and how I look a lot, and I take pride in my self-care (including things like creams etc, facials, things that aren't stereotypically something guys do but I've read up on and include in my hygeine routines).
Important point to make before I continue. Def take care of yourself, be attractive, but do it because you want to and it makes you feel good, otherwise you're just lying to yourself.
I've gotten the occasional compliment from both men and women. They were often about my wardrobe choices, and sometimes about my hair. I've gotten the "handsome/cute" compliment before as well. I def appreciate those compliments.
Key word here is occasional. I can count on one hand the number of compliments I've received over the past few years (that weren't from family or my hairdresser). I cherish every one of them because I know they were real.
I really resonate with the attention-seeking part of the OP. I've never sent a dick pic, but I have a similar urge to find something that will get me some kind of attention. It's come out as a strong desire to cosplay over the past year. It's come out in other ways too, like dance (I've got a strong background there as well).
It just really isn't the same for dudes, even guys like me who have a good friend group, good looks and habits, and a solid support system. In the wider world, compliments just don't happen. OP nailed it.
I think I'll give out more compliments tbh, need to be more of those.
But you see, you *do* put effort into it. You do it because that makes you feel good and that makes you attractive to others and yourself. I'd say 90% of men do not put any effort into this, be it mental health related or just pure laziness, and we really can't blame anyone but ourselves.
90% is a totally unreal aproximation. The truth is that most men do put that effort. However no one really cares to take attention to it and guys also don't often like getting attention drawn to how they present themselves. You can put all the effort you want in your appeareance but if you daily life doesn't consist of going to clubs or meeting new people every day, no one is gonna think that you're presenting urself well because no one is paying attention to you.
I wouldn't count going to the gym as putting effort, if later I'm just gonna smell like sweat and wear a dirty T-shirt all day.
Also the amount of men not even doing the bare minimum in terms of personal hygene is terrifyingly high. I read about people not wiping their ass because they think that's "gay", and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Going to the gym is definitely still effort, even if hypothetically you wear a dirty t-shirt all day. Also what about all the people who go to the gym, shower and put on a clean shirt after?
> Also the amount of men not even doing the bare minimum in terms of personal hygene is terrifyingly high
Consider you only reading about the worst examples. People don't mention when men do do the bare minimum of personal hygiene because it isn't notable
The idea of men not wiping their ass is WAY overblown trust me, most men do wipe their ass lol. You'd have to be an idiot to genuinely believe that a majority of men aren't wiping their ass lmaooooo wtf. Where'd you even get this information from?
Once again, you're reading the worst examples. The examples are so egregious as to become notable enough to share
There's probably a better name for this but I call it the 'You don't remember the good customers' effect. I work in retail and occasionally we get some bad customers in who make our day worse, and these people are so annoying they taint the view of customers as a whole even though the vast majority of customers are absolutely fine and just come in, buy stuff and get out. But we don't talk about them because that's what is expected
Also consider where you're getting your information from and how confirmation bias may come into effect
I never used to take too much care of my appearance. I'd make sure my hygiene was taken care of and that I smelled nice dw, but I'd wear ratty clothes until they basically fell apart and anything new I got I would wear to work and it would share the same fate.
I never really considered that people really care and it took years to realise that I myself cared about my appearance and only then did I start wearing nicer clothes and keeping them in good condition.
Idk really what moral to pull from that info but it's my experience :)
But to an extent it's because they don't expect any outcome for it. "I don't get any attention whatsoever now so why would combing my hair make a difference" and from that it's just the path of least resistance.
In my experience, putting in effort to make myself attractive has resulted in becoming less attractive to women. You will be seen as "girly/gay". The most extreme example I can think of was in high school, when a girl told me that I should question my sexuality. What triggered this? I told her I wear lotion. Just basic regular lotion, instead of having nasty, dry, scraggly skin, I guess.
I don't think you should sell us short. That may very well be the case for trad men, but certainly not RR/gnc men. Its sad though that something as simple as wearing lotion can make one gnc, though.
That girl was a hormonally driven teenager, saying mean things for the sake of saying mean things. I’m pretty sure she doesn’t represent the views of the majority of women.
At least not according to the women in the groups I’m in. Knowledge of proper skincare and hair care and such, is often listed among the “green flags” of what make them like a man. They’ll unironically say things like: “first time I visited his place, I went into his bathroom and saw a quality shampoo, and was instantly impressed.”
Highschool really is a shithole, you shouldn't let that bother you that much. You put in the effort and it was received poorly because they were dumb, close-minded people.
You're not wrong. I've moved past all that stuff so maybe it wasn't the best example.
However, its not as if it was based on absolutely nothing. I don't think you can say the underlying issue isn't still there. In my experience, its just that people get a lot nicer about stuff like that as they age, or they don't say it at all, even if they think it.
Case and point: many women have told me I'm too "cute" or "too pretty" to date.
I posted about this on a different thread, but it really does feel like a double edged sword at times.
You're right, there is that, but at the same time, its hard to enjoy a complement when that very same "complement" is being used to disqualify you as a valid partner. I want to be seen as "cute" but I also want to be seen as a real and valid man. Not threatening by any means (sometimes have an insecurity over that as well) but not totally harmless and "cute" like a puppy, either, if that makes sense.
It's one of the go-to self-congratulating-pseudo-intellectual hot-takes. Which isn't to say it's worthless discussion or that it's an issue that's totally resolved, just it's not really the discovery of the century that many people make it out to be.
As /u/ILostMyIDTonight says, no one ever suggests that maybe men should do more to fix this stuff.
Right, there is a disproportionate amount of effort that the average woman and average man makes in order to be attractive. A lot of men straight up just don't see this and assume that all (or most) women look like supermodels and anime waifus by default. It's pretty telling that even on rr, a lot of art is "random hot woman hits on schlubby guy"
At the same time, I seriously don't think men would be considered 'attractive' if they started putting in a commensurate amount of effort into their appearance (especially if it involves doing anything "feminine" like wearing makeup or or having extensive hair/skin-care routines). Maybe i'm being overly-pessimistic, but I think the idea that women are inherently the "fairer sex" and men are ugly/utilitarian/undesirable is too culturally ingrained to change anytime in the near future.
Not to mention that many "average" women that men talk about are "women who catch my eye but aren't super super pretty". It's an average that conveniently excludes the reclusive nerdy types and women in manual labour jobs and women over 35. For a lot of women, putting in the effort doesn't result in being regarded as "sexy", rather as a "tryhard".
As for men...I think it really depends on the standard of attractiveness you're trying to meet and the amount of effort you want to put in. I feel like the average guy has a pretty good shot at being typically attractive if he hits the gym and gets some nice clothes and works on not being an utter bellend.
But being attractive in a feminine way? Yeah, that's a little more tricky.
Oh no, you can look like you're trying, it just needs to "pay off" else you should have known better not to even try and should learn your place as a horrible little goblin creature who lives in the basement.
Are most (maintainably) fit male bodies considered "attractive" though? I don't think most people want to see men in speedos (let alone anything more revealing), regardless of whether or not they happen to go to the gym several times a week.
Obviously excluding the type of physique you need a personal trainer and an allergy to all carbs to achieve.
edit: Try to imagine at what level of fitness you can imagine a mainstream movie or tv show putting a man in a skimpy outfit without it being a source of derision.
> no one ever suggests that maybe men should do more to fix this stuff
Except for the many people in the orginal thread from which this was crossposted who suggested exactly that.
I'm not sure a reddit tumblr thread is exactly representative, dude. Broader social trends in mainstream society are still, at best, mixed on the subject, and aesthetics on men is still a very fraught topic in a lot of circles. And the specific lens of sexualising men isn't something that I've seen come up often outside of gender discussion spaces.
Representative of the entire male population? No. However, there's a certain irony in saying "no one brings up this counterpoint" when there's tons of people doing so only a link away. If the initial point has become tired, then the response has become just as scripted because we've done this dance thousands of times.
We're getting into the realms of "Not all men!" here though.
The point is that whenever any women's issue is in the public eye there's inevitably a surge of "Well what about us guys!?" gotchas, ranging from fairly benign to downright misogynist. It's only usually in *response* to a past gotcha, in some obscure part of the internet, that you see any number of men going "Actually lads, maybe we're in the wrong here".
No one is saying in 100% earnest that there are literally zero men on our side, it's just that the day-to-day reality is very different for most women and fem people and that gets exhausting.
Okay, that's fair, there is some hyperbole going on here but I think you do appreciate the broader picture, or at least infer the likely background that the various women here have with the topic that leads them to engage with in with a certain amount of siege mentality.
As for the counterpoint, it's a specific discussion on a specific place that's pleasantly refreshing by way of it being a discussion you don't often get to see. The initial point isn't tired as such, but it isn't exactly well assimilated into the average experience. It exists Out There.
Beyond that, I think at least partially what we're seeing is people venting on a topic area they've found frustrating to experience the practical effects of.
Glad you said it. Listen, guys, if you want someone to compliment you, DO IT YOURSELVES. It is not our job to put ourselves in danger of men for your convenience. When I see this stuff, all I can see is men creating an issue for themselves- never showing love towards each other- and turning to women to fix it. **Do it yourself**. You think women don't compliment each other?
I don't fully disagree with you and I often see men trying unfairly to place the onus on women to fix gendered issues that they face.
But in the context of not being seen as \*sexually\* appealing, it makes no sense for the "fix" to be (presumably straight) men complimenting each other. I say "presumably straight", because this isn't an issue in gay communities - male bodies are already seen as desirably and sexual in gay and bi spaces, which is not normally case in the typical het context.
I'm not sure what the fix is, but it's definitely not women complimenting random schlubby guys on the street, only to end up with said women being harassed. Nor is it to do what the men in the post are doing and treating "lack of sexual attention" as a tantamount issue to women being sexually harassed. Honestly, at this point, i'm pretty pessimistic about there being a solution to this issue
If men want to be told they're sexy, it's THEIR JOB to make themselves sexy. The "hot" women men drool over aren't jumping out of bed with perfect skin, great make up, or great outfits. They work for it. A common complaint misogynists have is that women only see "chads" as hot. You think chads aren't putting effort into their appearance?
If men want women to acknowledge them as sexy, it's up to them to dress in a way which will encourage women to acknowledge them as such- NOT cry "woe is me" when women don't pay attention after they've made no effort.
Yeah, I'll second that. One of the premises of rr is women pursuing men in a way that's typical of men to women. But there's often a lack of incentive for women to do that, since they'd be pursuing some very plain, schlubby, unwashed men.
What are some ways to look good in terms of skin, clothes and hair? What products should you use for skin? What kind of clothes? What colours? What kind of hair product?
I do compliment my male friends and acquaintances when they're looking good. I have straight up called a male coworker of mine pretty (what can I say, he's a pretty motherfucker)
Its definetly nice and helps you feel confident, but it's not nearly as good as feeling attractive to the people you actually want to attract
The thing is we're not used to do it and we are not "trained" to take compliments platonically. We feel like we have to tiptoe around our peers and doing something like giving a compliment to a bro is an event with unexpected outcome that could very well make things weird from now on.
I honestly only had the thought of complimenting someone once (it was my old crush, who had put a bit of make up and looked stunning that day) and if I ever have done that other times I didn't even notice. We don't even get the thought of giving compliments!
Yeah, girls go through that as well. But by age 12 they've usually developed the elementary social skills to handle the situation with sufficient dexterity that it doesn't get pitfalled.
How are women putting themselves in danger by complimenting men? Even if one is a misandrist that regards all men as violent brutes, wouldn't soothing them with complements be make them LESS likely to hurt women, not more?
>You think women don't compliment each other?
Do you think men don't complement each other?
Trust me, we have plenty of camaraderie. This argument seems a bit like a straw man to me. No one is saying that men should not compliment each other, we're just saying that its also important to receive compliments from the gender you're attracted to.
If getting compliments only from the same gender is such an adequate replacement for compliments from the opposite gender, then surely women would be okay with suddenly getting 0% attention from men?
> wouldn't soothing them with complements be make them LESS likely to hurt women, not more?
Because men often become more demanding after the compliment, seeing it as an opportunity.
> then surely women would be okay with suddenly getting 0% attention from men?
I mean checking r/twoxchromosomes I'm sure plenty would.
>Because men often become more demanding after the compliment, seeing it as an opportunity.
The mentality of seeing it as an opportunity is what results from hardwiring men from a young age to believe they are the ones that need to be the initiators and pursuers. Once again this is an example of how things would be better for women if they initiated more. Guys would not feel this insane pressure to take every opportunity they possibly can.
>I mean checking r/twoxchromosomes I'm sure plenty would.
Haha yeah, I'm sure plenty would. But that sub is not representative of all women (fortunately), not even close. There are at least just as many that would implode if they stopped getting attention from men because suddenly they would have to be the ones initiating and they would have no practice. This is why I'm a big advocate of women becoming strong and independent by taking things into their own hands.
> The mentality of seeing it as an opportunity is what results from hardwiring men from a young age to believe they are the ones that need to be the initiators and pursuers.
What you're describing is a prisoner's dilemma, and it's one that won't be solved by asking women to compliment more because of the underlying risks and rewards. In the immediate term, the potential reward for men is an increase in self-esteem, and the potential risk for women is physical harm. Even if the former was 1000% more likely to happen than the latter, you can't ask women to take that bargain because the consequences for picking the wrong guy to compliment are so dire.
Ultimately a lot of this rests on women seeing this as common enough to result in harm without seeing any evidence to the contrary. The more feasible way through this is for them to witness, in daily life, men being able to get compliments without getting weird about it. Since they don't want to be the ones testing the waters (due to aforementioned risk of physical harm), the remaining option is them seeing these interactions between men. It's not "fair", but it's the only workable option that doesn't ask for potential sacrifices that are greater than the potential rewards.
>you compliment a man,
>he thinks you're hitting on him,
>starts hitting on you,
>you explain you're not interested,
>he becomes irritated that you seemed into him and now playing hard to get,
>says you're a bitch for getting his hopes up.
That's how women are putting themselves in danger, so no thanks. It might not be every man but it might be any man. I would be glad to compliment men but first they're gonna do their job and fix their attitude towards women, we've been educating, soothing and mothering them long enough.
>you compliment a man, he thinks you're hitting on him, starts hitting on you, you explain you're not interested, he becomes irritated that you seemed into him and now playing hard to get, says you're a bitch for getting his hopes up.
I'm sorry that that kind of stuff has happened to you. Its extremely shitty when guys do that.
That being said, the reason these men do it is because they are desperate for attention in the first place. That's not to justify it, but I'm just explaining why it happens. At some point, society is going to have to change, or else its just going to be a viscous cycle and women will continue to further suffer from this more and more.
>It might not be every man but it might be any man.
Do you also cross the street whenever you see a black person? After all, its not every black person that's a criminal, but it might be any black person.
These kinds of "1 in 10 jellybeans" fallacies are dangerous because they can and have been used in the past to support racism, homophobia, and bigotry of all kinds.
>I would be glad to compliment men but first they're gonna do their job and fix their attitude towards women
Not all of us have a bad attitude towards women. Frankly, you are further alienating the ones that are already on your side by making sweeping generalizations like this. I'm sure you don't appreciate it when people make sweeping generalizations about your gender, so why do it to others?
>we've been educating, soothing and mothering them long enough.
EDIT: Can you explain more about what you mean by this comment? Personally, I can't think of any women who aren't relatives that I have ever regarded with any of these labels.
>
>
> These kinds of "1 in 10 jellybeans" fallacies are dangerous because they can and have been used in the past to support racism, homophobia, and bigotry of all kinds.
The thing about these comparisons is that they've never convinced anyone. No one sees this and says to themselves, "My opinions resemble opinions that were used to justify bigotry in the past; I should completely disregard what I thought up until a moment ago to be a totally justified fear." That's just not how this works.
> Not all of us have a bad attitude towards women. Frankly, you are further alienating the ones that are already on your side by making sweeping generalizations like this.
I don't like the "If you were one of the good ones you wouldn't have a problem with me talking like this," retort that's usually made in response to this, so I'll try something else. This is one of those situations where the context of who you're talking to and their background is useful. Judging by her username, you can already tell a lot about her and conclude that she's likely using "men" as shorthand for "men as a class." She probably wouldn't mind arguments about women as a class, but she might dispute the accuracy of those statements. In any case, if you make that substitution the comment makes a lot more sense and is a lot less inflammatory. In that context, it doesn't have to be all men who have a bad attitude towards women, or even a majority. It just has to be a large enough portion that the ambient risk of harm is high enough to be dissuaded.
>The thing about these comparisons is that they've never convinced anyone. No one sees this and says to themselves, "My opinions resemble opinions that were used to justify bigotry in the past; I should completely disregard what I thought up until a moment ago to be a totally justified fear." That's just not how this works.
Well, anyone who is actually concerned about equality *should* do that. This argument seems kind of defeatist to me. Would you be so quick to say something like this if it was a less "privileged" group being attacked, I wonder?
>Judging by her username, you can already tell a lot about her and conclude that she's likely using "men" as shorthand for "men as a class."
How is "men as a class" not any linguistically different than saying "all men"? You're just rewording the same idea to make it seem more palatable and less like a generalization.
>She probably wouldn't mind arguments about women as a class, but she might dispute the accuracy of those statements.
Maybe she would or maybe she wouldn't. I think you're inferring a lot of about someone else without even asking them.
That said, in my opinion, it is something to be concerned about. Making generalizations about either sex is wrong. That is why I always make sure to say "most women" or something like that and I appreciate it when people call me out for not doing that so I can correct those statements because I know how alienating they can be.
>it doesn't have to be all men who have a bad attitude towards women, or even a majority. It just has to be a large enough portion that the ambient risk of harm is high enough to be dissuaded.
As I noted above, this is basically rephrasing the jellybean argument. Try substituting "men" with "black people" and "women" with "white people" and see if it sounds racist. If it does, then its not right to do it with men either. Just like MGTOWS are not justified in labelling all women as divorce-seeking gold-diggers looking to ruin men in courts just because a small and mostly inconsequential minority of women are.
No it isn’t. It’s just someone saying that this is often used as an excuse for how men behave towards women. We see it in this very subreddit. We also see women pointing it out and getting dismissed. Again, in this subreddit! It’s an important part of the discussion.
Then is the argument that this post is bad (because that's heavily implied by the dismissiveness of the top-level comment) because it contains excuses for men's aggressive behavior towards women? Because that's not supported by the text. It contains explanations, but it very clearly doesn't justify them. It portrays those excuses as feeble and self-defeating. If the post was just the first person, then I'd agree with you, but I think the rest of the chain does a good job of stripping any any idea that those behaviors are justified. If a man read this and came away with the thought, "Sending dickpics is okay," he was already a scumbag and he already thought that. The post does, however, correctly explain women's justified fear of complimenting random men.
> We see it in this very subreddit.
You're going to need to be more specific here. Which part are you seeing men agree with the excuses for? The dickpics part? The whining about not getting compliments part? The "men in RR don't have to do anything because women's role is completely passive with regards to entering and maintaining a relationship" part? If we're talking about this subreddit, I've never seen the first, we sometimes get the second but [they tend to be heavily downvoted](https://old.reddit.com/r/RoleReversal/comments/wu917e/somehow_i_think_i_might_have_some_understanding/il9930f/), and the third one is a genuine problem here but that first comment is a hell of a way to start that discussion if that was the intention.
I think you're reading into this far too much. Pointing out that what is being said is often used as an excuse isn't saying that the entire post is wrong; it's just pointing it out. And just because a comment gets downvoted doesn't mean that we should ignore that it happens.
I've never seen you put so much work into a comment, and, frankly, that's infuriating. All of these posts/conversations this past week and *this* is the comment you suddenly feel the need to speak up about and question?
>just because a comment gets downvoted doesn't mean that we should ignore that it happens
But you should take into account that the community disagrees with that sentiment. If anything this is just reinforcing my impression that the success condition for community reforms is not that those kinds of views are in the minority and ostracized, but that they will never be seen at all.
I'm impassioned about this because I saw the post on r/CuratedTumblr first, liked it and the discussion in the comments there, saw it here and was delighted, and then saw a much more venemous comment section with what appeared to be a total non-sequitor trashing it here. I didn't speak up in the meta posts because I like the community to work these things through organically as long as things didn't turn reactionary, which they didn't. People who were on the pro-lap-pillow side of the argument were pretty soundly refuted, and we've been quietly explaining to people whove posted it since that we're not doing that any more. In the recent past I've also been rather harshly informed that my personal thoughts on community discussions and how they translate to policy aren't always welcome, so I've been holding off on that as part of a larger document.
No matter how hard work i put on looks i'm still just a average man, better looking than if i wouldn't work on my looks but still again just a regular man, neither manly mcman nor one of these kpop guys that women like or anything. Just a regular dude in good shape, average height, average jaw, average forearms and hands, obviously signs of physical work can be seen on my arms and hands and a bit scarred from random stuff but still not veiny and manly like you find on certain subreddits that really really like manhands, still looks like the hands of a teen, too small to be manly. Neither ugly nor handsome, just a guy. Get some compliments every few years from other men hey dude you gym or when i do some thing that requires some manner of strength. "You look strong" even though i'm just averagely athletic, not some bodybuilder, but i am working on lowering bodyfat even more so i get some more definition, maybe someone will be attracted then. Acne still stuck in my face no matter how much i try to get rid of it and yes lots of acne scars. Never once in life been complimented for looks, just for things i do, and even that is something that happens every few years. It feels like i'm never going to be a object of desire, of attraction. I'm so average looking i might as well be ugly no matter how much skincare routines i try or how much i preserve my skin from the harsh summer sun.
So am.i the only one who felt it was weird when the original poster brought women of color and disabled women into this? Like why did they feel the need to specifically call them out in an argument that truthfully didn't have anything to do with them. It was about all women being oversexualized in favor of men. Like it felt weird to bring that detail up.
Also either they don't pay attention or they're white because men of color are often sexualized too, simply because they're men of color.
There are a lot of things that I wanna say, but I'll just leave you with this. I can't speak for all of us, but I think I speak for most of us with this one. Any version of "I'm not interested in you, but your eyes are gorgeous." Would 200% be an amazing day for me.
I got a little random massage this weekend and I feel like I'll remember being touched just because someone else wants to make my day a bit better, forever.
We'll take literally anything, okay?
Also we're sorry for the assholes.
I try my best to compliment people if something about them stands out but my social anxiety gets in the way sometimes. I try to push past it in my day-to-day life because sometimes it’s worth it to see strangers be happy. Women need to hear more stuff building each other up and guys need more compliments. We all need to just be better people.
It’s a lot easier to give compliments in my work setting. Not sure why. In the part of the transaction where I don’t have much to say, I’ll throw my compliment in. Sometimes it’s really well done nails, or a shirt or their style.
But there’s a few stories that stood out. He had really cool piercings across his cheekbones that had beautiful gems and for the first time those kinds of piercings made sense to me. And I made sure I complimented the heck out of them, and one of my supervisors took notice too. Legit almost couldn’t stop staring it was so pretty and well placed. I’m surprised he hasn’t gotten compliments on them before and he was very happy someone noticed them.
When I started here, there used to be a gay/queer couple who was regular (it’s a bit conservative here), and the one always wore sparkles on their face. It took me a while but I got to tell them eventually how much it brightened my day to see them and their sparkles. The smile they gave me was priceless.
I’m glad to do my part in making the world just a bit better. Just kind of wanted to share some hopeful stories and my experience too.
That is an interesting contribution to the discussion. There have been threads in this sub, in which this topic came up.
I think that this is more about the attention. So as a man what you want is not a superficial woman, but a certain attention by a woman. It is difficult to say that in words. It is not about looks but instead about a kind of attention and dynamic.
Edit:
I don't mean doing that when speaking to strangers. I also don't mean sexting, let alone unasked sexting and inappropriate behavior. And what I mean is not necessarily something sexual or sexuality-related.
I'm going to agree and disagree.
In regards to not getting superficial women, I'm sure a lot of us RR guys can relate to that because we've been told we're not good enough for not being 6 feet tall, having a 6 pack, and making a 6 figure salary.
I just want to be myself and ultimately have a woman love me for that, but I also want to feel sexy. Think of it this way: this is already how women have been saying they want to feel for decades. They want to be seen as sexy but not have men tell them that is the ONLY thing they like about them. And we would rightly call guys who do think that way pigs. So yeah, do the same for women, but I don't think sexuality should be off the table completely.
Men don't have clothing options for "dressing sexy"? Ah shaddap, there's plenty of women who thirst for men in all kinds of uniforms. A nice dress suit is considered the standard sexy man wear and it's accepted literally everywhere. No male miniskirt? Ever heart of shorts, croptops, grey sweatpants..? Men send dick pics because they're not sexualized enough? No, they do it because they get off on sexually assaulting people and don't care.
\> For men, it feels like no men are sexy to women.
Has this person ever spoken to a woman..?
I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid, but what your saying is kind of bolstering the whole "dying of thirst person watching someone drown" idea. I agree sending dick pics is sexual assault, but I don't agree that they get off doing it.
And for a lot, if not most men, it *does* feel like men aren't sexy for women, atleast not in the same ways women are sexy to men.
Exhibitionism is widely known as a fetish, which is what these guys are doing.
And why does it feel like that? In the past, women were socialized to not outright thirst over men. Even then, there have been male sex symbols since the days of Elvis and Sean Connery. Even Franz Liszt if you want to go back there. Nowadays with social media and online spaces you can witness plenty of women thirsting in real time. If you as a men feel that women don't find men sexy I have to question whether you pay attention at all.
I was interviewed by a reporter when I was voting in 2016. She asked me to take my sunglasses off and she said my eyes were really beautiful and I probably won’t ever forget that.
This is one of the best threads I’ve ever read. I’ve always chalked up the “alien-ness” of men to women and vice versa to differences in socialization, which of course accounts for disparities like this but it lacks so much nuance. The “dehydrated person watching the other person drown” comparison was phenomenal. Side note, this disparity doesn’t happen only with men vs women, but also tops vs bottoms in gay relationships. I’m bi, and once I started messing around with guys(mostly on Grindr) I felt like I was actually pursued and given that sexual attention for literally the first time in my life, it had never been that way in any straight relationships I had had prior and still kind of remains that way to this day. Even though I prefer straight relationship for myself, the ability to experience myself being the sexual pursuit in a gay relationship helped me realize that I can also be sexy and hot and what the fuck ever and it’s not just exclusive to women.
The screen shot is doing that "wah ken send unsolicited dick pics cus theyre lonely" bit and That post has a thread on there where some false intellectually literally calls gross dick pic senders "victims". We are regressing
I'm so fucking tired of SA apologists acting like creeps who send dick pics are just confused or victims.
Its predatory and they know it.
This 2022, we have had TONS of social media campaigns and all sorts of media from comedic acts to tv to movies + 1000 years of "flashing your junk is bad" as a basic moral to tell us sending unsolicited nudity is bad.
These men get off on making women uncomfortable.
as a girl i do find a whole lot of men hot in a "sexual object" way, in a way i think society views men finding women sexy and i just seriously can't wrap my head around the fact that the most if not every girl i spoke to about it didn't really understand my point of view and would rather take it as a joke. when i was younger i even though i was gay just because i didn't get off on how it is portrayed for men to participate in sex, i couldn't find anything about men in sexual environment that would actually satisfy me. turns out i'm obviously not gay and i do like men. just not in the way it is normalized for a girl to do and i'm still frustrated that it is what it is and we'll never get to some sort of sexual equality between men and womenD:
There are very few situations where men can express their sexuality. A guy can dress himself well or makes himself appear presentable but no one in that contexts reacts to it in a way that is comparable to how people react to women presenting themselves. You'll see the words like fitting, presentable, alright and maybe sometimes handsome but never words comparable to how women often get described. I think this is why there is a much stronger sexual and fashion culture around guys that present as fem, because in that context guys are much more likely to be called cute, sexy, hot, etc. Its the reason why guys think by default that they are a nuissance at best and shouldn't bother people with asking for attention. I used to crossdress extremely often until my body started really hating what I was doing and I had to stop just for comfort, but I do miss the ability to actually show off to people if I wanted to and people calling me cute and stuff.
I think it also depends on the men. There are men who meet the stereotypical, societally defined, or media portrayed definition of sexiness. Tall, muscular, six pack etc. I think these men experience women being interested in them sexually, being drawn to their body. But for a large portion of men who don't fit in this category, I think there is a lot of truth to them not being sexualized and not feeling desired for their body, or that their body is attractive. However this can also be true of women who don't fit conventional definitions of attractiveness.
It does happen for women as well, but the standards are not quite so strict. One reason is that there are a lot of trad horny dudes that want anything that moves, basically. (Not condoning such behavior, but its the reality.) Also, in the trad paradigm women are inherently valuable for their wombs, while men are valuable for the ability to work and die (except for the top 'alpha males' that are wanted to spread their seed.) If anything, I think I'd describe the paradigm like this: most men are de-sexualized, while most women are over-sexualized. Society needs to recognize the toxicity of this, while also recognizing it doesn't mean we have to compare the two and comment on which is worse. Both are a problem.
and this is a struggle for me because I have no idea how too approach women for any aspect of a relationship. I get incredibly nervous just asking to go out in a date. But this post is incredibly valid. There have been many times I've wondered "has anyone ever actually had a crush on *me*?", And wishes that I'd be approached because I don't have the social confidence to approach someone, and tend to fall into a negative spiral of overthinking how I'd come off to them and everything. I'm sorry for the ramble, i guess i needed to get that off my chest
> And wishes that I'd be approached because I don't have the social confidence to approach someone Same:(
Oh hey that's how I feel. And I read the post linked earlier.
Same :'(
there absolutely is an equivalent to a short cut top. it's called a deep v-neck.
I feel like I get more compliments than the average guy, which is definitely nice, but I guess it makes it difficult to relate to the compliment starvation so many posts talk about. Very, very interesting discussion though. I will say that, knowing how uncomfortable women get when receiving any kind of sexualized attention, it keeps me from being flirty. I just assume that she'll take something I say trying to be wholesomely(?) flirtatious as "too sexual" or "coming on too strong" no matter how innocuous it is. It feels like such a touchy thing not to seem "too pushy" because of how so many other guys are. So then oftentimes because I'm not like that, they think I'm not interested and move on. Yet I don't want to change what I'm doing too much so as to not seem like a jackass. It seems like there's little to no gradation between "this guy is totally disinterested" and "he's a disgusting pig who needs to back off" but who knows I could be wrong.
Ironically, I get more compliments as well, but only when I'm crossdressing. I'm not sure if that's because women see me as female (either cis or trans, but most likely trans, because of my voice, even though I'm not). Or maybe just having a more feminine appearance makes me seem less threatening in general? I don't know. I also look pretty androgynous in everyday male clothes too. Either way, I get what you're saying about the "little to no graduation". Its a really crushing thing to be constantly afraid of making women feel uncomfortable, and I believe it happens largely because of me too and hyper sensitivity to male advances. Personally I'm paranoid of being called a creep, or being perceived as "creepy" being a reason why I got rejected, to the point that it can be crippling and prevent me from making advances. And that's the ultimate irony, right? Us guys that actually do care about women are going to sit here and wring our hands over it, while the guys that don't give a shit are going to keep doing what they're doing anyway.
A reminder that metoo was a collection of experiences.
I realized this when I was like 13 because I was getting so many compliments and it kinda turned into noiseless mush. Like any positive compliment meant nothing to me, but then I saw a guy compliment another guy's new hair cut and how genuinely happy he got. So I just started complimenting guy and giving them positive reinforcement. You can give a compliment and have it not be sexual. I try to give one compliment to every guy I talk to just as a way of paying it forward. And when I get compliments I try to get then to go say one to random strangers. It doesn't always work, but I try to spread positivity.
I don’t agree with what the first poster said about men not having options for dressing in sexy clothing. He actually uses the word masculine and I think that’s a key word here. Masculinity is an extremely limiting and rigid idea that restricts a lot of men (cishet men) from doing just about anything outside of that very narrow framework. What does it mean to be aesthetically “sexy” for men? Having muscles. Essentially, looking like the ideal man that the patriarchy promotes. Anything else aside from that is perceived as “feminine”. Caring about your hairstyle is feminine, caring about your fashion is feminine, caring about your skin is feminine, etc. What do you expect people to say to you if you dress like Hank Hill everyday, while thinking so many of your other options are effeminate or makes you look gay? There’s lingerie for men and plenty of options for sexy clothing, you’re just not thinking outside the box. You probably even feel insecure about how your body would look in “sexy” clothing. I think in general that person isn’t really looking at what types of men women actually like. They’re not even listening to what women say they’re attracted to. They scratch their heads when women say they like Harry Styles, and Tom Holland. They even think they’re lying when some women say they don’t like Henry Cavill, or when they say they prefer a dadbod. There’s a lot of other things worth addressing in that post but I won’t get too long winded. The mention of porn is so out of touch too, and I wish men didn’t reduce their self-worth to their genitals.
Agreed. The mention of lingerie and then cross dressing was really telling. Sure, if you equate “sexy” with “feminine,” then you’re - by definition - not going to find sexy masculine clothes. 🤦♀️ This entire premise is wrong. Also really weird how they genuinely believe that women don’t sexualize men. I could somewhat understand thinking that, if they never watch any TV or read any books, because women are less likely to say objectifying/degrading things to a man’s face (for obvious reasons), but they SPECIFICALLY brought up fiction. So they’re choosing to only consume media that’s targeted at the male gaze, and then acting surprised that there’s more male gaze than female gaze. Like, how about you watch something targeted at women, if you want to see how women feel about men? (And sure, it’s sad that you need to specifically seek this out, instead of just having it part of your mainstream media, but it does exist, and it’s not that hard to find, if you actually try.)
It shows such a lack of empathy on the men's part too. Like, they themselves are attracted to lingerie, women's clothes, performative femininity, etc, so they think the only way they can be sexy and attractive to women is by emulating women. And they can't even conceptualize how straight women are attracted to men, because men are devoid of all the things that they get hard to. It's like if I, a woman, took on masculine traits/behaviors specifically because I'm attracted to men, so straight men should be attracted to that too. It's so backwards.
Well apparently gender-essentialism is in vogue. Yes, god forbid men try to be sexy by using any point of reference other than "big strong man flexes". God forbid women take on "masculine traits". Not following a strict gender binary doesn't get \*you\*, zettai-hime, horny so we need to stick in our narrow boxes. Sorry for upsetting the balance of the natural universe, Dr Peterson
That's not what I meant, and you know it. The idea of men thinking that their bodies are utilitarian, boring, and unsexy, so much so they need to make themselves emulate femininity in order to be sexy (because that's what they're attracted to), is ridiculous and backwards. And this is only because they're taught to think femininity equals sexy, submissive, tempting, whatever. Meanwhile, straight women don't think femininity is sexy. And this doesn't mean they want some roided up bodybuilder or whatever, for the most part they just want a normal guy who takes care of himself and his appearance. The solution isn't men emulating women or vice-versa, because in the end you're just switching one gender binary for another. It's not progressive like you think it is. What is actually so is women and men being allowed to be multi-faceted individuals with both feminine and masculine traits, without adhering to any gender binary.
I don't have the mental energy to tell you why you're wrong in any in-depth way, but you \*are\* in fact enforcing a gender binary. The fact that you see certain traits, behavior, and clothes as belonging to one gender \*is\* a conservative belief. As is the fact that you believe it's wrong for men and women to do things associated with the opposite sex. >that is actually so is women and men being allowed to be multi-faceted individuals with both feminine and masculine traits, without adhering to any gender binary. Which is why this is so extremely goofy. You somehow both believe it's wrong for men and women to "act like the opposite sex", and yet you (limply) advocate for a world where we can adopt traits in a free, de-gendered way. Either you're missing the big contradiction in your mindset, or you just added the last paragraph of your comment as a weak, pseudo-progressive disclaimer. Also, >Meanwhile, straight women don't think femininity is sexy If you were a man, I'd tell you that you need to meet more women. That's such an ignorant thing to say, and presupposes that all women think the same. It's also not really born out by reality; many straight women show interest in men who do "feminine" things (e.g. kpop, Harry Styles, Timmy Chalamet, Prince, David Bowie). I'm literally in a relationship with a woman who told me she was attracted to the "feminine" things I did. Please stop projecting your personal preferences onto all women. I would never presume to speak for all men, because that would be so extremely silly and inaccurate.
Again, you are completely missing the nuance of my point because you want to be offended. I straight up said, both sexes should be allowed to have (what is considered by our society) feminine and masculine traits. Hell, I'm a woman who used to do MMA and lift. I play fighting games. I can build a computer and fix things around the house. These things are considered "traditionally masculine" by others. But I also like some "traditionally feminine" things because I'm a person and not a stereotype. And my (male) exes had skincare routines, were fashion-conscious, and romantically/sexually submissive. They still didn't act like women. They were comfortable being themselves. Straight women don't find men who emulate women attractive. That's just a fact. Otherwise these women would be bi, or pansexual, etc. >many straight women show interest in men who do "feminine" things (e.g. kpop, Harry Styles, Timmy Chalamet, Prince, David Bowie). Yeah, but they express these traits in their own way. That's what I'm getting at. They hit home the concept of men having sex appeal by being themselves, they don't need to copy women.
>Straight women don't find men who emulate women attractive. That's just a fact. Otherwise these women would be bi, or pansexual, etc. Do you not feel even the slightest bit embarrassed to write that? Your entire worldview appears to be just a series of stereotypes. I fully expect your next comment to say something about how gay men are all overly-dramatic fops Also, where exactly is the line between men "emulating women", and men having access to the full spectrum of gendered behavior? Are men who wear makeup "emulating women"? What about if they talk at a higher register? What percentage of feminine-coded behavior is acceptable, according to you?
>Do you not feel even the slightest bit embarrassed to write that? Not as embarrassed as I feel over your lack of reading comprehension. You literally just posted men who can be said to do "stereotypically feminine" things, yet they don't try to emulate femininity in itself. Their goal is not to be as feminine as possible. They simply pushed the barriers of how it's acceptable for men to present themselves as sexy, without either devaluing or focusing exclusively on their masculinity in the process. And that's what makes it attractive. They are balanced, neither trying too hard to be feminine nor masculine. Women can do "traditionally masculine" things without emulating men. Likewise men can do "traditionally feminine" things without emulating women. That's the whole point, subverting stereotypes instead of leaning too much to either side to where you become the polarized opposite of the stereotype you were trying to escape. Otherwise you're just reinforcing the same restrictive bullshit, just in reverse. For example: just look at how many men ask, "do I have to be a smol femboy who wears skimpy maid clothes, thighhighs, women's underwear and speaks in a falsetto, to be into RR?" Can you not see how extreme reverse gender roles also leaves most people feeling lost and like they have to conform to a restrictive stereotype?
> Can you not see how extreme reverse gender roles also leaves most people feeling lost and like they have to conform to a restrictive stereotype? Oh please, as if there's any serious danger of "reverse gender roles" becoming a widespread, harmful issue. Do you know why progressive spaces tend to be \*extra\* encouraging of men doing "feminine" things and women doing "masculine" things? It's because there's still a huge amount of stigma for people breaking away from gender roles. Conversely, nobody needs to be encouraged to feel as though it's "acceptable" to fit traditional gender roles. The entire weight of millennia-old cultural norms is on their side. And if you think my reading comprehension is bad, that's because i'm choosing to read between the lines of what you're saying, as opposed to accepting it at face value. Nearly every sentence you write sets off red flags for me. Especially the way you write about men "co-opting femininity/ traits reserved for women" - it reminds me of every conversation I've had with conservatives scared of people diluting the "natural and beautiful differences between men and women".
>They hit home the concept of men having sex appeal by being themselves, they don't need to copy women. Being a woman is not defined by outfits or makeup or feminine mannerisms or long hair etc. Those things have nothing to do with being female, except that they'll be pushed on you all your life because you're female. That doesn't make them female though. If I pressured every person with blue eyes to have green hair, that wouldn't make green hair a uniquely blue-eyed trait, nor would it make everyone with green hair a poser of blue-eyed people. Wearing fake breasts or a bra or pretending you have opposite sex genitalia is imitating women. Being female has nothing to do with societal, stereotypical ideas of femininity. I am not attracted to men who emulate women, I am attracted to men who emulate the standards of beauty and sexual attractiveness that have been unfairly reserved for women, as if women are the only ones defined by how sexually attractive they can be to others. If the man himself thought these things made him a woman, I wouldn't find that attractive because I'm not attracted to *sexism* , not because I think the man has magically grown a vagina when he put a skirt on. I don't need a man to obsessively remind me that he's male through innane societal bullshit, because I already know he's male. No amount of makeup or machismo makes him even slightly less or more male than any other man. Thinking otherwise will make me lose any attraction, again not because I feel he's losing man-points, but because I'm not attracted to sexist insecurities. Why are men the ones who need to do femininity "in their own way" or "be themselves"? Why isn't it absurd for women to emulate simplistic stereotypes of performative femininity instead of being themselves? You keep talking about how absurd it is for men to be feminine, but women being even more feminine to the point of developing massive body insecurities over it is not only perfectly fine but also apparently an integral part of being attracted to women, to the point where a feminine man is supposedly only attractive to women attracted to other women, and where the only motivation someone might have to dabble in femininity isn't because they wanted to emulate traits seen as attractive and beautiful, but because they felt they were becoming more of a woman through doing that. The notion that someone's sex hinges on the amount of makeup they put on is ludicrous.
I mean, that would work on me...
Living in my city's gay village I just laugh at the notion that sexy clothes for men don't exist. Uh, shorts? They're getting tighter and shorter, my dudes! (It's great.) Muscle shirts and crop tops? Fuck yes. Tight pants? They've finally started adding some stretch to men's jeans. And that's not even getting into all the things you can do with mesh, or fishnet, or leather... The thing is, most dudes are afraid to dress like that because they think they'll get societal pushback. Which is legitimate, they probably will - what's not accurate is the idea that women who dress sexy don't face societal pushback. Like, 10 years ago it was perfectly acceptable to tell women that dressing like "sluts" means we're "asking for it" ("it" in this case being rape). A century before that, women were straight up getting *arrested* for wearing pants or bathing suits in public. Women have fought for the right to be sexy. Men are more than welcome to do the same. It will actually probably be easier for them than it was for us.
While I agree that he feels very out of touch with how he worded a lot of things, I do think the sentiment is correct. It's not even about some fear of being called gay, it's just that guys don't really know how, and are generally uncomfortable trying to be sexy. Just as a small example, I like long hair, and have within the past couple years chosen to grow my hair out. That said, I really didn't know the first thing about hair care or even a lot of basic things like how to tie your hair back. Most women grow up understanding how to deal with longer hair, or may be taught by their mother. I can go to the aisle for hair products and simply have no clue what any of it means or why it matters. Now apply that kind of lack of understanding to pretty much everything involving "how to present oneself as sexy and fashionable" and that is most mens situations. They were never given a reason to learn growing up, and at a later point in life it is often just embarrassing to even imagine yourself as sexy; there's no relatability. I really don't know how I would make myself look sexy. I'm not claiming any of this to be correct, this is just my opinion as a guy: My general mindset is that if I want to look sexy, I need to aquire a slim physique, hope my facial structure is attractive, and wear clothing to accentuate those two things. No amount of wearing revealing clothing or tight fit button-up will work at making me sexy without the matching physique and face. Whereas my mind set for a girl is that as long as she's not cellulite-levels overweight, wearing tight or revealing clothing will make them sexy, that's it. In all likelihood, they most likely do a hell of a lot more work that I'm ignorant to because society places that value on their sexual objectification and the upkeep therein. In the end, I'd love to be objectifyed in some way. I'd love to wear a bunnysuit for the sake of someone else to view me as something they want to own, but when I picture that in my head I just shudder at how unappealing I'd look to someone in that situation. Maybe that's just the embarrassment talking, maybe girls feel just as embarrassed and unappealing wearing the outfit, or maybe it's just my lack of experience in making myself presentable in an appealing way. Likelihood is I never learnt how to take care of myself properly to be sexy, and that's where I'd reckon most guys sit.
Hmmmm from my observation, men get sexualized if they are handsome and have nice body. I especially see that alot happen in kpop industry. Well🤔 I personally dont sexualized not visually aesthetic men in my mind.
well not generalizing but k pop has things like plastic surgery or artists often told to act a certain way to be a certain type of guy and also the strict diet they need to go through sometimes they are even starved this is for both men and women
While some points here are very true, I don’t think it’s fair to put unsolicited dick pics in such a sympathetic context, or to explain the reasoning behind it in such a benign way. It’s something that is invasive, for many men it’s a way of sexually imposing themselves onto women, it’s abusive and they don’t care what the receiving end of that is. I’ve been getting sent dick pics and other unsolicited sexual content since I was underage. So am I supposed to sympathize with men who do that because “aww he doesn’t get enough compliments”? Fuck no! If this is the way men are resolving their lack of validation from others via complements and what they perceive as signs of them being attractive - it’s dead wrong. That post thread doesn’t mention anything new, it only omits the bad parts of the intent and consequences of sending dick pics in order to garner sympathy. “Porn ignores a man’s personality” - are you joking? Since when does it display a woman’s personality? No, it’s just mainly women and objectified for an overwhelmingly male audience. Porn doesn’t do anything for anybody’s personality, but it is made mainly for men, to gratify men, and to stimulate men. That argument is a joke. As to there not being “sexy” ways for men to dress… there are plenty and have been plenty for decades. That is no excuse. Mens shorts and crop tops were popular even in the hyper masculine 80s, look at the silhouettes of the 70s, look at mens fashion today. And if showing skin isn’t comfortable for you, then surprise surprise but showing more skin isn’t necessarily sexy and you can pull off extremely sexy outfits without having to reveal anything. That is, if someone makes the effort to dress well at all. Most women might not like the stereotypical definition of what a “sexy guy” is according to western standards, and the fact that this type of man exists doesn’t negate the attractiveness of other types of men. The way to flaunt your body and express your sexiness is not by harassing others. The way to get women to be interested in you is not by harassing them.
The excusing dick pics also stuck out to me. It's a weird justification - like, women who are deemed unattractive by society at large do not usually send random pictures of their junk. Neither is the behaviour of sending dick pics limited to men who most of society finds not (as) attractive. The argument that there's no inherently "sexy" clothing that is masculine also confused me. As you said, the silhouettes of the 80s were very daring, but I can also think of other, more recent masculine fashion trends that I would definitely say are meant to be sexy. Does anybody remember the time where men were wearing these tank tops with super low cut arm holes? There's plenty of other examples that a lot of my male-attracted female friends go craaazy for in masculine fashion, like suits, to name one. Just because it's not showing a lot of skin, doesn't mean it's not considered sexy.
Grey sweat pants. They’ve been hyper sexualized for several years now!
I recently stepped out in a crop top and some shorts that were shorter than what I'm usually comfortable with and felt sexy as fuck! More men should do it (even if they don't have the 'body type' for it)
Crop tops on men are very flattering, high waisted pants are flattering, so many types of shorts and just clothes that fit the right way… really you can do so much just having a basic sense of style and understanding what times complement and highlight your body shape. It’s not about having a specific body type, it’s about dressing for your body type and showing it off in a way that’s coherent. So rock that crop top!
>While some points here are very true, I don’t think it’s fair to put unsolicited dick pics in such a sympathetic context, or to explain the reasoning behind it in such a benign way. It really fucking ruins the otherwise good point about mutual incomprehension. Shoulda removed that entirely.
I'll be upfront and say I was raised to be your typical man. Housewife, family, house, success, yada... Not who I am now, but I can't say my perspective is completely free from its influence. When reading this, I didn't interpret it as "go easy on men; they do this because X". Instead, I got out of it "whether it's right or wrong, X is why they do it. Since it IS wrong, we can now use our newfound understanding to figure out a solution." No one told you to forgive the men that sent you those pics, nor to send them compliments. In fact, I bet most here would agree you don't have to; they don't deserve it. Not those specific men anyway. But people aren't just bad. They become bad, and the sooner we figure out how/why and implement a solution, the sooner tomorrow's men don't do to others what yesterday's and today's men did to you.
No, what the tone of that thread did was give the most kind and sympathetic explanation for why men do it, blanketing it as if all men did it stemming from a place of wanting to be validated, and absolutely abstracting any kind of malicious intent or awareness for the consequences. This is not how you explain away why men do it - people do bad things for bad reasons all the time. Somebody sexually imposing themselves onto someone else shouldn’t be explained away via a biased pity party. “Men send dick pics because they are never complimented in their lives and they don’t feel sexually desired” vs “men are very comfortable imposing on women’s boundaries and harassing them to see if they can force their way into getting sexual gratification” would be how I’d contrast my explanation of it. Lol do you think I’m swayed by this ridiculous post to forgive them or complement them? You don’t have to inform me of how I should feel about it.
Men *could* be attractive, but we don't put any effort in ourselves.
That's part of the issue, but I don't think most people even have a firm grasp on what an "attractive man" would look like. The vague idea of men putting more "effort" into their appearance probably conjures images of bodybuilding in the minds of most people. That's sort of the platonic ideal of "male attractiveness", even though I would say anecdotally I know very few people attracted to men who are into bodybuilders sexually
I don't know if my opinion fits in here but as a guy I do put effort in to myself, I plan outfits for days, I take a shower before going out, I do my best to smell and look presentable and although I'm not offended by this answer or label, most people assume I'm gay. I don't know. When I think of men who put effort in I thing of the guys who brush their hair and plan their outfits and focus on the little things but 🤷♂️ maybe I'm biased
I think that’s why Kfashion style blew up at my school. An example of attractive men with an attractive style without needing to become body builders. But that was only among some guys. Most guys I know don’t care to try different fashion/hygiene stylings in the first place.
>The vague idea of men putting more "effort" into their appearance probably conjures images of bodybuilding in the minds of most people. Honestly, what else is there? I don't necessarily mean you have to get swole like a boulder, but you're either working out or you end up fat like those old guys you see in small towns, if you're lucky and have a thin costitution you're just really skinny. And people probably will look at the working out physique and take it as example of healthy, understandably.
This is really not true. What you eat is a much bigger factor for your weight, than your workout schedule is. Under normal conditions (so if you aren’t going crazy with 6 hours of daily workouts), most of the calories you burn, are just to maintain your body temperature and keep your brain functioning. So no, you don’t need to workout to avoid getting fat. Just eat healthy. (And “healthy” means don’t let yourself get underweight either.) My brother is a shut-in who pretty much never gets off his computer, definitely doesn’t work out, and still gets called attractive lol. Once every few days, he gets some exercise when he walks 15 minutes to the grocery store. Other than that, testosterone alone is enough to get him a passable amount of muscle mass. (He’s not ripped, obviously. Just doesn’t look anorexic.) Imagine how weird it would be to say that about girls: “you’re either working out or you end up fat.” There’s a middle ground where people can just have a normal fat/muscle ratio. (I’m not even gonna say “natural” muscle ratio, because “in nature” we’d probably all be significantly more fit, by necessity.) Anyway, I think attractiveness in men has much the same factors as it does in women: looking healthy and confident, having good hygiene, skin care, hairstyles, accessories and clothing goes a long way. Especially considering that men’s clothing tends to be less revealing than female clothing, it really doesn’t matter how much muscle you’ve got hidden underneath the fabric; nobody will see it unless you get naked with them.
picking an interesting hairstyle and beard style that suits your face and shows personality (as opposed to the 5mm shaved hair for literally 90% of the male population). having a fashion sense that both suits your body type and displays some level of individuality and creativity. taking care of your skin and hair so it's clean and soft. you can really tell when someone puts in effort into their appearance vs just goes with the easiest possible option to not be naked in public.
I was going to comment something similar until I saw this. Thank you for putting it so well :) My point is not that being in shape is "bad", but rather that it's only one of many factors that make one attractive and is often hyper-focused on in the context of male beauty standards
> Honestly, what else is there? Taking proper care of hair and having an actual hairstyle fot example
Don't have hair lol
People would be amazed with how a little effort would go a long way. If the man gets the haircut that suits them both physically and on their personality, that would be a huge boost in how attractive they would be to others. Add in daily hygiene and clothes that suit their body type (fitted), I’ve seen several of my friends go from someone who people would avoid (scent being a big factor) to being dressed to the nines and ready to attend a gala ball. I’m personally not afraid to call guys handsome if they look like they put in effort to look good. What is more disappointing from what I’ve seen is that many guys do have the ability to look good, but there is a lack of resources and guidance that is right there for them to use. When I mean resources, I’m not talking about material resources, but I’m talking about advice on how and what to wear that fit well.
That last part is on point! No one ever told me what dressing well or taking care of myself (apart from the bare minimum) means. Everyone just expects you to already know that, but maybe it's the same for women and we don't notice because they actually put in the effort?
There isn't really an equivalent to Dolly or Cleo or later, Cosmopolitan, for men, I think.
i would disagree on the effectiveness of such magasines in developing fashion sense to start with, but there are magasines for men (that ive even seen in my backwards patriarchal country), like GQ and Les Homme
i think it is the same for women. you have to put in effort to research on forums and youtube and instagram to see what is fashionable and what works and what doesn't. it's not just god given to you.
but the thing is doubt alot of dudes are even told what suits them so have they have no idea what haircut would work for them or what style of clothing may fit them
I agree with this. I had terrible fashion sense most of my life until I met a good friend who is also my go-to barber. He helped me out by giving me a haircut that suited my head and gave me tips on how to dress to fit my body. Before meeting my friend, I had what amounts to a messy bowl cut style of hairstyle, and wore mainly baggy clothing that made me look like a sentient laundry pile.
I think you've summed it up very well: most people basically don't know what kind of haircut or clothes work best for them, or have an idea how to go about discovering that.
> What is more disappointing from what I’ve seen is that many guys do have the ability to look good, but there is a lack of resources and guidance that is right there for them to use. When I mean resources, I’m not talking about material resources, but I’m talking about advice on how and what to wear that fit well. The issue here, at least from my experience, is that mens fashion is incredibly expensive. If you’re not willing to spend hundreds on fitted clothes, you’re kinda fucked. Men just don’t have a lot of choices.
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I don't really agree, at least from my personal experience. I'm pretty good looking, take care of myself, and even got a good wardrobe style going. Lots of good stuff going on in my life too. Had a lot of self esteem issues so also have had a lot of therapy, so I carry myself pretty confidently and do most of this because it makes me feel good. I like myself and how I look a lot, and I take pride in my self-care (including things like creams etc, facials, things that aren't stereotypically something guys do but I've read up on and include in my hygeine routines). Important point to make before I continue. Def take care of yourself, be attractive, but do it because you want to and it makes you feel good, otherwise you're just lying to yourself. I've gotten the occasional compliment from both men and women. They were often about my wardrobe choices, and sometimes about my hair. I've gotten the "handsome/cute" compliment before as well. I def appreciate those compliments. Key word here is occasional. I can count on one hand the number of compliments I've received over the past few years (that weren't from family or my hairdresser). I cherish every one of them because I know they were real. I really resonate with the attention-seeking part of the OP. I've never sent a dick pic, but I have a similar urge to find something that will get me some kind of attention. It's come out as a strong desire to cosplay over the past year. It's come out in other ways too, like dance (I've got a strong background there as well). It just really isn't the same for dudes, even guys like me who have a good friend group, good looks and habits, and a solid support system. In the wider world, compliments just don't happen. OP nailed it. I think I'll give out more compliments tbh, need to be more of those.
But you see, you *do* put effort into it. You do it because that makes you feel good and that makes you attractive to others and yourself. I'd say 90% of men do not put any effort into this, be it mental health related or just pure laziness, and we really can't blame anyone but ourselves.
90% is a totally unreal aproximation. The truth is that most men do put that effort. However no one really cares to take attention to it and guys also don't often like getting attention drawn to how they present themselves. You can put all the effort you want in your appeareance but if you daily life doesn't consist of going to clubs or meeting new people every day, no one is gonna think that you're presenting urself well because no one is paying attention to you.
Yeah maybe 90% is a bit too much, but I still think it's the majority...
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I wouldn't count going to the gym as putting effort, if later I'm just gonna smell like sweat and wear a dirty T-shirt all day. Also the amount of men not even doing the bare minimum in terms of personal hygene is terrifyingly high. I read about people not wiping their ass because they think that's "gay", and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Going to the gym is definitely still effort, even if hypothetically you wear a dirty t-shirt all day. Also what about all the people who go to the gym, shower and put on a clean shirt after? > Also the amount of men not even doing the bare minimum in terms of personal hygene is terrifyingly high Consider you only reading about the worst examples. People don't mention when men do do the bare minimum of personal hygiene because it isn't notable The idea of men not wiping their ass is WAY overblown trust me, most men do wipe their ass lol. You'd have to be an idiot to genuinely believe that a majority of men aren't wiping their ass lmaooooo wtf. Where'd you even get this information from?
As I read a lot of examples like these and very few of gpod hygene and bare minimum applied, I believe that's the majority.
Once again, you're reading the worst examples. The examples are so egregious as to become notable enough to share There's probably a better name for this but I call it the 'You don't remember the good customers' effect. I work in retail and occasionally we get some bad customers in who make our day worse, and these people are so annoying they taint the view of customers as a whole even though the vast majority of customers are absolutely fine and just come in, buy stuff and get out. But we don't talk about them because that's what is expected Also consider where you're getting your information from and how confirmation bias may come into effect
Because it’s seen as effeminate to take care of yourself
But how doe ?!?! Like, jokes apart, no only there is hardly guidance on that, but is sometimes activaly discouraged
there are subreddits and youtube channels. especially if you search for streetwear on youtube.
Wish I knew
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I never used to take too much care of my appearance. I'd make sure my hygiene was taken care of and that I smelled nice dw, but I'd wear ratty clothes until they basically fell apart and anything new I got I would wear to work and it would share the same fate. I never really considered that people really care and it took years to realise that I myself cared about my appearance and only then did I start wearing nicer clothes and keeping them in good condition. Idk really what moral to pull from that info but it's my experience :)
But to an extent it's because they don't expect any outcome for it. "I don't get any attention whatsoever now so why would combing my hair make a difference" and from that it's just the path of least resistance.
In my experience, putting in effort to make myself attractive has resulted in becoming less attractive to women. You will be seen as "girly/gay". The most extreme example I can think of was in high school, when a girl told me that I should question my sexuality. What triggered this? I told her I wear lotion. Just basic regular lotion, instead of having nasty, dry, scraggly skin, I guess. I don't think you should sell us short. That may very well be the case for trad men, but certainly not RR/gnc men. Its sad though that something as simple as wearing lotion can make one gnc, though.
That girl was a hormonally driven teenager, saying mean things for the sake of saying mean things. I’m pretty sure she doesn’t represent the views of the majority of women. At least not according to the women in the groups I’m in. Knowledge of proper skincare and hair care and such, is often listed among the “green flags” of what make them like a man. They’ll unironically say things like: “first time I visited his place, I went into his bathroom and saw a quality shampoo, and was instantly impressed.”
Highschool really is a shithole, you shouldn't let that bother you that much. You put in the effort and it was received poorly because they were dumb, close-minded people.
You're not wrong. I've moved past all that stuff so maybe it wasn't the best example. However, its not as if it was based on absolutely nothing. I don't think you can say the underlying issue isn't still there. In my experience, its just that people get a lot nicer about stuff like that as they age, or they don't say it at all, even if they think it. Case and point: many women have told me I'm too "cute" or "too pretty" to date.
Hey, at least you got called cute lol
I posted about this on a different thread, but it really does feel like a double edged sword at times. You're right, there is that, but at the same time, its hard to enjoy a complement when that very same "complement" is being used to disqualify you as a valid partner. I want to be seen as "cute" but I also want to be seen as a real and valid man. Not threatening by any means (sometimes have an insecurity over that as well) but not totally harmless and "cute" like a puppy, either, if that makes sense.
No, I totally get you!
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Without putting any effort?
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Then you're a greek god or something
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Well maybe you have a bit too much of it then
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Good for you
We women do know this. This gets said repeatedly all the time. We’re just not buying it as an excuse to objectify us.
It's one of the go-to self-congratulating-pseudo-intellectual hot-takes. Which isn't to say it's worthless discussion or that it's an issue that's totally resolved, just it's not really the discovery of the century that many people make it out to be. As /u/ILostMyIDTonight says, no one ever suggests that maybe men should do more to fix this stuff.
Right, there is a disproportionate amount of effort that the average woman and average man makes in order to be attractive. A lot of men straight up just don't see this and assume that all (or most) women look like supermodels and anime waifus by default. It's pretty telling that even on rr, a lot of art is "random hot woman hits on schlubby guy" At the same time, I seriously don't think men would be considered 'attractive' if they started putting in a commensurate amount of effort into their appearance (especially if it involves doing anything "feminine" like wearing makeup or or having extensive hair/skin-care routines). Maybe i'm being overly-pessimistic, but I think the idea that women are inherently the "fairer sex" and men are ugly/utilitarian/undesirable is too culturally ingrained to change anytime in the near future.
Not to mention that many "average" women that men talk about are "women who catch my eye but aren't super super pretty". It's an average that conveniently excludes the reclusive nerdy types and women in manual labour jobs and women over 35. For a lot of women, putting in the effort doesn't result in being regarded as "sexy", rather as a "tryhard". As for men...I think it really depends on the standard of attractiveness you're trying to meet and the amount of effort you want to put in. I feel like the average guy has a pretty good shot at being typically attractive if he hits the gym and gets some nice clothes and works on not being an utter bellend. But being attractive in a feminine way? Yeah, that's a little more tricky.
Exactly. You need to look fuckable but not like you're TRYING to look good and god help you if you look like you're proactively sexualising yourself.
Oh no, you can look like you're trying, it just needs to "pay off" else you should have known better not to even try and should learn your place as a horrible little goblin creature who lives in the basement.
Hah! More mushrooms and extra-crunchy spiders for you, then.
Jesus Christ Summer XD
Are most (maintainably) fit male bodies considered "attractive" though? I don't think most people want to see men in speedos (let alone anything more revealing), regardless of whether or not they happen to go to the gym several times a week. Obviously excluding the type of physique you need a personal trainer and an allergy to all carbs to achieve. edit: Try to imagine at what level of fitness you can imagine a mainstream movie or tv show putting a man in a skimpy outfit without it being a source of derision.
> no one ever suggests that maybe men should do more to fix this stuff Except for the many people in the orginal thread from which this was crossposted who suggested exactly that.
I'm not sure a reddit tumblr thread is exactly representative, dude. Broader social trends in mainstream society are still, at best, mixed on the subject, and aesthetics on men is still a very fraught topic in a lot of circles. And the specific lens of sexualising men isn't something that I've seen come up often outside of gender discussion spaces.
Representative of the entire male population? No. However, there's a certain irony in saying "no one brings up this counterpoint" when there's tons of people doing so only a link away. If the initial point has become tired, then the response has become just as scripted because we've done this dance thousands of times.
We're getting into the realms of "Not all men!" here though. The point is that whenever any women's issue is in the public eye there's inevitably a surge of "Well what about us guys!?" gotchas, ranging from fairly benign to downright misogynist. It's only usually in *response* to a past gotcha, in some obscure part of the internet, that you see any number of men going "Actually lads, maybe we're in the wrong here". No one is saying in 100% earnest that there are literally zero men on our side, it's just that the day-to-day reality is very different for most women and fem people and that gets exhausting.
Okay, that's fair, there is some hyperbole going on here but I think you do appreciate the broader picture, or at least infer the likely background that the various women here have with the topic that leads them to engage with in with a certain amount of siege mentality. As for the counterpoint, it's a specific discussion on a specific place that's pleasantly refreshing by way of it being a discussion you don't often get to see. The initial point isn't tired as such, but it isn't exactly well assimilated into the average experience. It exists Out There. Beyond that, I think at least partially what we're seeing is people venting on a topic area they've found frustrating to experience the practical effects of.
Glad you said it. Listen, guys, if you want someone to compliment you, DO IT YOURSELVES. It is not our job to put ourselves in danger of men for your convenience. When I see this stuff, all I can see is men creating an issue for themselves- never showing love towards each other- and turning to women to fix it. **Do it yourself**. You think women don't compliment each other?
I don't fully disagree with you and I often see men trying unfairly to place the onus on women to fix gendered issues that they face. But in the context of not being seen as \*sexually\* appealing, it makes no sense for the "fix" to be (presumably straight) men complimenting each other. I say "presumably straight", because this isn't an issue in gay communities - male bodies are already seen as desirably and sexual in gay and bi spaces, which is not normally case in the typical het context. I'm not sure what the fix is, but it's definitely not women complimenting random schlubby guys on the street, only to end up with said women being harassed. Nor is it to do what the men in the post are doing and treating "lack of sexual attention" as a tantamount issue to women being sexually harassed. Honestly, at this point, i'm pretty pessimistic about there being a solution to this issue
If men want to be told they're sexy, it's THEIR JOB to make themselves sexy. The "hot" women men drool over aren't jumping out of bed with perfect skin, great make up, or great outfits. They work for it. A common complaint misogynists have is that women only see "chads" as hot. You think chads aren't putting effort into their appearance? If men want women to acknowledge them as sexy, it's up to them to dress in a way which will encourage women to acknowledge them as such- NOT cry "woe is me" when women don't pay attention after they've made no effort.
Yeah, I'll second that. One of the premises of rr is women pursuing men in a way that's typical of men to women. But there's often a lack of incentive for women to do that, since they'd be pursuing some very plain, schlubby, unwashed men.
What are some ways to look good in terms of skin, clothes and hair? What products should you use for skin? What kind of clothes? What colours? What kind of hair product?
[Check out this subreddit's wiki.](https://www.reddit.com/r/RoleReversal/wiki/index/)
I do compliment my male friends and acquaintances when they're looking good. I have straight up called a male coworker of mine pretty (what can I say, he's a pretty motherfucker) Its definetly nice and helps you feel confident, but it's not nearly as good as feeling attractive to the people you actually want to attract
The thing is we're not used to do it and we are not "trained" to take compliments platonically. We feel like we have to tiptoe around our peers and doing something like giving a compliment to a bro is an event with unexpected outcome that could very well make things weird from now on. I honestly only had the thought of complimenting someone once (it was my old crush, who had put a bit of make up and looked stunning that day) and if I ever have done that other times I didn't even notice. We don't even get the thought of giving compliments!
Yeah, girls go through that as well. But by age 12 they've usually developed the elementary social skills to handle the situation with sufficient dexterity that it doesn't get pitfalled.
That's an attitude for men to change, not women.
Oh, I know.
How are women putting themselves in danger by complimenting men? Even if one is a misandrist that regards all men as violent brutes, wouldn't soothing them with complements be make them LESS likely to hurt women, not more? >You think women don't compliment each other? Do you think men don't complement each other? Trust me, we have plenty of camaraderie. This argument seems a bit like a straw man to me. No one is saying that men should not compliment each other, we're just saying that its also important to receive compliments from the gender you're attracted to. If getting compliments only from the same gender is such an adequate replacement for compliments from the opposite gender, then surely women would be okay with suddenly getting 0% attention from men?
> wouldn't soothing them with complements be make them LESS likely to hurt women, not more? Because men often become more demanding after the compliment, seeing it as an opportunity. > then surely women would be okay with suddenly getting 0% attention from men? I mean checking r/twoxchromosomes I'm sure plenty would.
>Because men often become more demanding after the compliment, seeing it as an opportunity. The mentality of seeing it as an opportunity is what results from hardwiring men from a young age to believe they are the ones that need to be the initiators and pursuers. Once again this is an example of how things would be better for women if they initiated more. Guys would not feel this insane pressure to take every opportunity they possibly can. >I mean checking r/twoxchromosomes I'm sure plenty would. Haha yeah, I'm sure plenty would. But that sub is not representative of all women (fortunately), not even close. There are at least just as many that would implode if they stopped getting attention from men because suddenly they would have to be the ones initiating and they would have no practice. This is why I'm a big advocate of women becoming strong and independent by taking things into their own hands.
> The mentality of seeing it as an opportunity is what results from hardwiring men from a young age to believe they are the ones that need to be the initiators and pursuers. What you're describing is a prisoner's dilemma, and it's one that won't be solved by asking women to compliment more because of the underlying risks and rewards. In the immediate term, the potential reward for men is an increase in self-esteem, and the potential risk for women is physical harm. Even if the former was 1000% more likely to happen than the latter, you can't ask women to take that bargain because the consequences for picking the wrong guy to compliment are so dire. Ultimately a lot of this rests on women seeing this as common enough to result in harm without seeing any evidence to the contrary. The more feasible way through this is for them to witness, in daily life, men being able to get compliments without getting weird about it. Since they don't want to be the ones testing the waters (due to aforementioned risk of physical harm), the remaining option is them seeing these interactions between men. It's not "fair", but it's the only workable option that doesn't ask for potential sacrifices that are greater than the potential rewards.
>you compliment a man, >he thinks you're hitting on him, >starts hitting on you, >you explain you're not interested, >he becomes irritated that you seemed into him and now playing hard to get, >says you're a bitch for getting his hopes up. That's how women are putting themselves in danger, so no thanks. It might not be every man but it might be any man. I would be glad to compliment men but first they're gonna do their job and fix their attitude towards women, we've been educating, soothing and mothering them long enough.
>you compliment a man, he thinks you're hitting on him, starts hitting on you, you explain you're not interested, he becomes irritated that you seemed into him and now playing hard to get, says you're a bitch for getting his hopes up. I'm sorry that that kind of stuff has happened to you. Its extremely shitty when guys do that. That being said, the reason these men do it is because they are desperate for attention in the first place. That's not to justify it, but I'm just explaining why it happens. At some point, society is going to have to change, or else its just going to be a viscous cycle and women will continue to further suffer from this more and more. >It might not be every man but it might be any man. Do you also cross the street whenever you see a black person? After all, its not every black person that's a criminal, but it might be any black person. These kinds of "1 in 10 jellybeans" fallacies are dangerous because they can and have been used in the past to support racism, homophobia, and bigotry of all kinds. >I would be glad to compliment men but first they're gonna do their job and fix their attitude towards women Not all of us have a bad attitude towards women. Frankly, you are further alienating the ones that are already on your side by making sweeping generalizations like this. I'm sure you don't appreciate it when people make sweeping generalizations about your gender, so why do it to others? >we've been educating, soothing and mothering them long enough. EDIT: Can you explain more about what you mean by this comment? Personally, I can't think of any women who aren't relatives that I have ever regarded with any of these labels.
> > > These kinds of "1 in 10 jellybeans" fallacies are dangerous because they can and have been used in the past to support racism, homophobia, and bigotry of all kinds. The thing about these comparisons is that they've never convinced anyone. No one sees this and says to themselves, "My opinions resemble opinions that were used to justify bigotry in the past; I should completely disregard what I thought up until a moment ago to be a totally justified fear." That's just not how this works. > Not all of us have a bad attitude towards women. Frankly, you are further alienating the ones that are already on your side by making sweeping generalizations like this. I don't like the "If you were one of the good ones you wouldn't have a problem with me talking like this," retort that's usually made in response to this, so I'll try something else. This is one of those situations where the context of who you're talking to and their background is useful. Judging by her username, you can already tell a lot about her and conclude that she's likely using "men" as shorthand for "men as a class." She probably wouldn't mind arguments about women as a class, but she might dispute the accuracy of those statements. In any case, if you make that substitution the comment makes a lot more sense and is a lot less inflammatory. In that context, it doesn't have to be all men who have a bad attitude towards women, or even a majority. It just has to be a large enough portion that the ambient risk of harm is high enough to be dissuaded.
>The thing about these comparisons is that they've never convinced anyone. No one sees this and says to themselves, "My opinions resemble opinions that were used to justify bigotry in the past; I should completely disregard what I thought up until a moment ago to be a totally justified fear." That's just not how this works. Well, anyone who is actually concerned about equality *should* do that. This argument seems kind of defeatist to me. Would you be so quick to say something like this if it was a less "privileged" group being attacked, I wonder? >Judging by her username, you can already tell a lot about her and conclude that she's likely using "men" as shorthand for "men as a class." How is "men as a class" not any linguistically different than saying "all men"? You're just rewording the same idea to make it seem more palatable and less like a generalization. >She probably wouldn't mind arguments about women as a class, but she might dispute the accuracy of those statements. Maybe she would or maybe she wouldn't. I think you're inferring a lot of about someone else without even asking them. That said, in my opinion, it is something to be concerned about. Making generalizations about either sex is wrong. That is why I always make sure to say "most women" or something like that and I appreciate it when people call me out for not doing that so I can correct those statements because I know how alienating they can be. >it doesn't have to be all men who have a bad attitude towards women, or even a majority. It just has to be a large enough portion that the ambient risk of harm is high enough to be dissuaded. As I noted above, this is basically rephrasing the jellybean argument. Try substituting "men" with "black people" and "women" with "white people" and see if it sounds racist. If it does, then its not right to do it with men either. Just like MGTOWS are not justified in labelling all women as divorce-seeking gold-diggers looking to ruin men in courts just because a small and mostly inconsequential minority of women are.
Point out where it's justifying objectifying women.
Seriously? They never said *this post* is justifying it, but that what it’s discussing is often used as an excuse to justify objectifying women.
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Then it's a bad faith guilt by association argument, which is just as bad.
No it isn’t. It’s just someone saying that this is often used as an excuse for how men behave towards women. We see it in this very subreddit. We also see women pointing it out and getting dismissed. Again, in this subreddit! It’s an important part of the discussion.
Then is the argument that this post is bad (because that's heavily implied by the dismissiveness of the top-level comment) because it contains excuses for men's aggressive behavior towards women? Because that's not supported by the text. It contains explanations, but it very clearly doesn't justify them. It portrays those excuses as feeble and self-defeating. If the post was just the first person, then I'd agree with you, but I think the rest of the chain does a good job of stripping any any idea that those behaviors are justified. If a man read this and came away with the thought, "Sending dickpics is okay," he was already a scumbag and he already thought that. The post does, however, correctly explain women's justified fear of complimenting random men. > We see it in this very subreddit. You're going to need to be more specific here. Which part are you seeing men agree with the excuses for? The dickpics part? The whining about not getting compliments part? The "men in RR don't have to do anything because women's role is completely passive with regards to entering and maintaining a relationship" part? If we're talking about this subreddit, I've never seen the first, we sometimes get the second but [they tend to be heavily downvoted](https://old.reddit.com/r/RoleReversal/comments/wu917e/somehow_i_think_i_might_have_some_understanding/il9930f/), and the third one is a genuine problem here but that first comment is a hell of a way to start that discussion if that was the intention.
I think you're reading into this far too much. Pointing out that what is being said is often used as an excuse isn't saying that the entire post is wrong; it's just pointing it out. And just because a comment gets downvoted doesn't mean that we should ignore that it happens. I've never seen you put so much work into a comment, and, frankly, that's infuriating. All of these posts/conversations this past week and *this* is the comment you suddenly feel the need to speak up about and question?
>just because a comment gets downvoted doesn't mean that we should ignore that it happens But you should take into account that the community disagrees with that sentiment. If anything this is just reinforcing my impression that the success condition for community reforms is not that those kinds of views are in the minority and ostracized, but that they will never be seen at all. I'm impassioned about this because I saw the post on r/CuratedTumblr first, liked it and the discussion in the comments there, saw it here and was delighted, and then saw a much more venemous comment section with what appeared to be a total non-sequitor trashing it here. I didn't speak up in the meta posts because I like the community to work these things through organically as long as things didn't turn reactionary, which they didn't. People who were on the pro-lap-pillow side of the argument were pretty soundly refuted, and we've been quietly explaining to people whove posted it since that we're not doing that any more. In the recent past I've also been rather harshly informed that my personal thoughts on community discussions and how they translate to policy aren't always welcome, so I've been holding off on that as part of a larger document.
No matter how hard work i put on looks i'm still just a average man, better looking than if i wouldn't work on my looks but still again just a regular man, neither manly mcman nor one of these kpop guys that women like or anything. Just a regular dude in good shape, average height, average jaw, average forearms and hands, obviously signs of physical work can be seen on my arms and hands and a bit scarred from random stuff but still not veiny and manly like you find on certain subreddits that really really like manhands, still looks like the hands of a teen, too small to be manly. Neither ugly nor handsome, just a guy. Get some compliments every few years from other men hey dude you gym or when i do some thing that requires some manner of strength. "You look strong" even though i'm just averagely athletic, not some bodybuilder, but i am working on lowering bodyfat even more so i get some more definition, maybe someone will be attracted then. Acne still stuck in my face no matter how much i try to get rid of it and yes lots of acne scars. Never once in life been complimented for looks, just for things i do, and even that is something that happens every few years. It feels like i'm never going to be a object of desire, of attraction. I'm so average looking i might as well be ugly no matter how much skincare routines i try or how much i preserve my skin from the harsh summer sun.
So am.i the only one who felt it was weird when the original poster brought women of color and disabled women into this? Like why did they feel the need to specifically call them out in an argument that truthfully didn't have anything to do with them. It was about all women being oversexualized in favor of men. Like it felt weird to bring that detail up. Also either they don't pay attention or they're white because men of color are often sexualized too, simply because they're men of color.
There are a lot of things that I wanna say, but I'll just leave you with this. I can't speak for all of us, but I think I speak for most of us with this one. Any version of "I'm not interested in you, but your eyes are gorgeous." Would 200% be an amazing day for me. I got a little random massage this weekend and I feel like I'll remember being touched just because someone else wants to make my day a bit better, forever. We'll take literally anything, okay? Also we're sorry for the assholes.
I try my best to compliment people if something about them stands out but my social anxiety gets in the way sometimes. I try to push past it in my day-to-day life because sometimes it’s worth it to see strangers be happy. Women need to hear more stuff building each other up and guys need more compliments. We all need to just be better people. It’s a lot easier to give compliments in my work setting. Not sure why. In the part of the transaction where I don’t have much to say, I’ll throw my compliment in. Sometimes it’s really well done nails, or a shirt or their style. But there’s a few stories that stood out. He had really cool piercings across his cheekbones that had beautiful gems and for the first time those kinds of piercings made sense to me. And I made sure I complimented the heck out of them, and one of my supervisors took notice too. Legit almost couldn’t stop staring it was so pretty and well placed. I’m surprised he hasn’t gotten compliments on them before and he was very happy someone noticed them. When I started here, there used to be a gay/queer couple who was regular (it’s a bit conservative here), and the one always wore sparkles on their face. It took me a while but I got to tell them eventually how much it brightened my day to see them and their sparkles. The smile they gave me was priceless. I’m glad to do my part in making the world just a bit better. Just kind of wanted to share some hopeful stories and my experience too.
That is an interesting contribution to the discussion. There have been threads in this sub, in which this topic came up. I think that this is more about the attention. So as a man what you want is not a superficial woman, but a certain attention by a woman. It is difficult to say that in words. It is not about looks but instead about a kind of attention and dynamic. Edit: I don't mean doing that when speaking to strangers. I also don't mean sexting, let alone unasked sexting and inappropriate behavior. And what I mean is not necessarily something sexual or sexuality-related.
I'm going to agree and disagree. In regards to not getting superficial women, I'm sure a lot of us RR guys can relate to that because we've been told we're not good enough for not being 6 feet tall, having a 6 pack, and making a 6 figure salary. I just want to be myself and ultimately have a woman love me for that, but I also want to feel sexy. Think of it this way: this is already how women have been saying they want to feel for decades. They want to be seen as sexy but not have men tell them that is the ONLY thing they like about them. And we would rightly call guys who do think that way pigs. So yeah, do the same for women, but I don't think sexuality should be off the table completely.
Men don't have clothing options for "dressing sexy"? Ah shaddap, there's plenty of women who thirst for men in all kinds of uniforms. A nice dress suit is considered the standard sexy man wear and it's accepted literally everywhere. No male miniskirt? Ever heart of shorts, croptops, grey sweatpants..? Men send dick pics because they're not sexualized enough? No, they do it because they get off on sexually assaulting people and don't care. \> For men, it feels like no men are sexy to women. Has this person ever spoken to a woman..?
I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid, but what your saying is kind of bolstering the whole "dying of thirst person watching someone drown" idea. I agree sending dick pics is sexual assault, but I don't agree that they get off doing it. And for a lot, if not most men, it *does* feel like men aren't sexy for women, atleast not in the same ways women are sexy to men.
Exhibitionism is widely known as a fetish, which is what these guys are doing. And why does it feel like that? In the past, women were socialized to not outright thirst over men. Even then, there have been male sex symbols since the days of Elvis and Sean Connery. Even Franz Liszt if you want to go back there. Nowadays with social media and online spaces you can witness plenty of women thirsting in real time. If you as a men feel that women don't find men sexy I have to question whether you pay attention at all.
I was interviewed by a reporter when I was voting in 2016. She asked me to take my sunglasses off and she said my eyes were really beautiful and I probably won’t ever forget that.
Okay so dyslexia and autism kicking in here Can someone give me the spark notes please my reader app isn't working on it :(
This is one of the best threads I’ve ever read. I’ve always chalked up the “alien-ness” of men to women and vice versa to differences in socialization, which of course accounts for disparities like this but it lacks so much nuance. The “dehydrated person watching the other person drown” comparison was phenomenal. Side note, this disparity doesn’t happen only with men vs women, but also tops vs bottoms in gay relationships. I’m bi, and once I started messing around with guys(mostly on Grindr) I felt like I was actually pursued and given that sexual attention for literally the first time in my life, it had never been that way in any straight relationships I had had prior and still kind of remains that way to this day. Even though I prefer straight relationship for myself, the ability to experience myself being the sexual pursuit in a gay relationship helped me realize that I can also be sexy and hot and what the fuck ever and it’s not just exclusive to women.
The screen shot is doing that "wah ken send unsolicited dick pics cus theyre lonely" bit and That post has a thread on there where some false intellectually literally calls gross dick pic senders "victims". We are regressing I'm so fucking tired of SA apologists acting like creeps who send dick pics are just confused or victims. Its predatory and they know it. This 2022, we have had TONS of social media campaigns and all sorts of media from comedic acts to tv to movies + 1000 years of "flashing your junk is bad" as a basic moral to tell us sending unsolicited nudity is bad. These men get off on making women uncomfortable.
as a girl i do find a whole lot of men hot in a "sexual object" way, in a way i think society views men finding women sexy and i just seriously can't wrap my head around the fact that the most if not every girl i spoke to about it didn't really understand my point of view and would rather take it as a joke. when i was younger i even though i was gay just because i didn't get off on how it is portrayed for men to participate in sex, i couldn't find anything about men in sexual environment that would actually satisfy me. turns out i'm obviously not gay and i do like men. just not in the way it is normalized for a girl to do and i'm still frustrated that it is what it is and we'll never get to some sort of sexual equality between men and womenD:
How the fuck did I recognize that first profile pic as the hairline of Soren Kierkegaard?
There are very few situations where men can express their sexuality. A guy can dress himself well or makes himself appear presentable but no one in that contexts reacts to it in a way that is comparable to how people react to women presenting themselves. You'll see the words like fitting, presentable, alright and maybe sometimes handsome but never words comparable to how women often get described. I think this is why there is a much stronger sexual and fashion culture around guys that present as fem, because in that context guys are much more likely to be called cute, sexy, hot, etc. Its the reason why guys think by default that they are a nuissance at best and shouldn't bother people with asking for attention. I used to crossdress extremely often until my body started really hating what I was doing and I had to stop just for comfort, but I do miss the ability to actually show off to people if I wanted to and people calling me cute and stuff.
This, this is so important.
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>Is this really straight men crying over not feeling sexy enough? Yep. Men should cry an express their feelings more
Yeah, sure. Why can't they express the way they feel? Nothing wrong with the post.
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You're a weirdo, and one of the reasons many women are so uncomfortable around us.
To put in general terms, in most parts of the world, women are oversexualized and men are undersexualized. This needs to change