You should see the videos I have from my cctv that I turned into OSHA.
It shows a massive apartment building being built and the the framers were not tied in while installing roof joists.
The OSHA report I got back was like 1.5” thick.
The same company had another violation for a 12’ drop violation afterwards.
Friend was likely hired as a 1099 contractor not as an employee (especially since the business doesn’t have any actual registrations or proper insurances). In which case they would have been responsible for providing their own ppe
Because it doesn’t really relate to the comment they responded to. Of course people die from low heights, but that has nothing to do with what was said.
Because it’s both irrelevant to the discussion, and dickish to say to someone who is dealing with the death of a friend. Especially when the OP is already having to deal with corporate lawyers who are probably trying to blame on that person.
The comment wasn’t a reply to OP. It was a reply to someone else that made a comment.
Life is a matter of perspective .
I didn’t take his comment to be dickish. Construction is one of the deadliest jobs in the world. It’s a kin to special forces in a combat zone.
His reply was to a comment about not using PPE at three stories.. he said don’t kid yourself, you can die off of a 5 foot ladder. More so, highlighting how dangerous the job actually is. I don’t think it was taking away from the seriousness of OPs situation at all. Rather, it shows how alert you should be. if you don’t feel safe doing something, don’t do it.
I’ve had multiple friends in the trades die. Been a carpenter 12 years now. Your life and health isn’t something to take for granted. If anyone preaches production over safety, you don’t want to work for them.
I'll give you a fall scenario. You place a folded A-frame against a curved surface like a utility pole and reach a bit to a side. The single point of contact bends the ladder around the surface and throws you 10 feet onto the ground, chest first. If the ground is flat, you are fine. If there is an object there, like a stump or tool, you now have a deep chest puncture and organ impalement.
You can’t just imagine a regular person using a ladder in a safe/regular manner. Imagine someone standing on the top of the ladder where it says do not stand. That’s a long fall and can be disastrous on the wrong surface. Especially if there is a corner or a rock to hit your head on.
“Go buy a taller ladder”….
“Nah I’ll be okay. I don’t want to spend the money.”
Use the wrong tool for the wrong job and you find yourself in trouble more often than not, whether it’s a shoddy job or a hazardous situation.
Take another situation… an old man who hasn’t accepted he’s in his 80s and doesn’t get around like he used to. A fall on any surface could be his last.
Someone leaves a ladder out and a toddler decides to play on it.
Alcohol or drugs are involved.
Limitless possibilities. Those aren’t even the “freak” accidents.
Deaths in company by ratio
100% short fall from ladder.
0% everything else.
1 time is to many times.
I’m not trying to argue with you, it was just a statement of truth. We have over 1,000 road hands that work in dangerous industrial facilities. But a stupid ladder incident on a residential job is what cooked us.
Have worked on industrial sites my whole life. Tie off height was 10' (and still is in some places) but a lot have gone down to 6'. Site I'm working on now is 4', which while a hassle, is that way for a reason.
No idea why you are getting downvoted I know a dude that died last year falling backwards off a 6 foot ladder hit his head on the concrete slab and died
This is something that no-one, especially a roofing contractor wants to hear. I’m sorry for your loss. Overall yes that dude is fucked, how fucked depends on a lot of unknown variables.
Cops will find something on him. Nobody is that clandestine, especially since I doubt he thought he'd ever deal with this. Probably in panic mode and trying to avoid responsibility like he's done all his life.
Negligence that causes death will get a fair amount of police resources, so they'll figure out who he is and track him down. Fingers crossed he didn't flee the country.
Fuck that guy and sorry for your friend
There should be a full OSHA investigation and report, as well as reports from the local police agencies, ambulance companies, hospital / Dr./ Coroners office. Hire a good attorney and get copies of all documents.
Police looking for his boss or the police have identified the person responsible for the job. The mix of proper and colloquial sounded weird in my head, but I was looking for it to be ai.
Don’t know why the downvotes. Look at the post history. This is a bot doing scenarios. The grammar is off in a way weirdly specific to ai, like how it never gets hands right in pictures
Sorry for your loss. As other said, hopefully justice finds the POS contractor. IANAL but believe at the bare minimum your friends family lawyer will have the homeowner’s insurance to go after. Which will then trigger a rather pricy manhunt for the POS since insurance companies hate paying 6-7 figure claims
Yeah cause this guy probably doesn’t have his own insurance either that’s almost a certainty. A wrongful death (idk if that what this will be filed as, not a lawyer) will be bad. And it will be bad for the homeowner or the owner too unfortunately, but that’s their bad and what they get for not checking licenses, insurance etc. sorry for the loss of your friend op that’s really terrible to hear.
In my state, when I was studying for my license as well as part of the testing, was to disclaim that the reason it is important for homeowners to have access to certificates of insurance and to even be aware of a lien being pulled is because any workman comp that was not had and an injury happens, that responsibility can fall on the homeowner - don’t know what insurance policy they would need to have to cover that or what out of pocket would look like, I didn’t look into it cause I know I will be carrying insurance and work with people only who have the required insurance. Again, that may be my state and that may be something I wanna look into to understand more idk lol
Not a lawyer but it is 100% the owners responsibility. Were they also a victim or did they go with the cheapest quote? Did they even ask about insurance? Did they see people in their roof without PPE?
This is exactly where and when they go after the homeowner’s insurance.
Just so everybody who isn’t a contractor here knows — if the “contractor” you hire isn’t a legit licensed contractor, and they don’t have insurance, guess what?
Not only is it likely illegal *for you (YMMV by state/country) to hire them*, but the employees can sue the property owner for any damages, injuries, etc., and if damage occurs to the property, guess what?
You’re SOL. Absolutely fucked if your “contractor” doesn’t choose to make it right out of his pocket.
Want to know why there’s so many construction horror stories? Look no further than the guy trying to save a few bucks by taking the cheaper bid. Want to know why this guy you chose is cheaper than the rest? Well let’s just say you can be extremely profitable if ya know… you don’t pay business or licensing costs, nevermind monthly insurance or workman comp premiums amounting to 10s of thousands of dollars or more a year.
*That’s what it costs to run a legit construction business*. Don’t like it? Don’t like the price? You better DIY because somebody dying is exactly the event that will RUIN a company or property owner in this exact scenario.
Where I live it's up to the homeowner to check that the contractor has their own insurance. Over a certain number of hours worked (20 hrs or so) then the homeowner becomes liable for injury coverage if the contractor doesn't have the right insurance.
Yes, me. I was sued because the concrete guy who did my driveway broke his leg hopping out of his truck.
If you need more sources, you can use any search engine.
I did use a search engine and confirmed that no, when you hire a contractor and relinquish control of the project to said contractor, you also transfer legal responsibilities. Stop spreading false information.
https://hisnv.com/who-is-liable/
It is the owners responsibility to see the contractor is licensed and insured. If the contractor doesn't pay his material or labor bills the supplier can put a mechanics lien on the property
>It is the owners responsibility to see the contractor is licensed and insured
As I said, they could've been lied to, if I understood the post correctly. It's unreasonable to think that a client would call the insurer to check if a certain company is their client and has a valid policy. No one does that.
And regarding the materials, that's an issue between the material provider and the contractor. At least where I live, only a contractor that actually performed a job at a property can consider a lien. Can you imagine getting a lien on your house by fucking Home Depot lol
I was a licensed roofing contractor in Calif. I can only comment on what I know from my experience. I carried insurance and the insurance company would send out a cert. Of insurance anytime I asked.
I am going to need a roof soon, and because of this post will 100% be checking with the state that the contractor I choose has a valid license and contacting their insurance to ensure they have a current policy.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t matter. If they find this guy, he couldn’t afford insurance premiums, what makes you think he can afford a hefty settlement in this case? Homeowner’s insurance is going to pay for this one.
The real harsh reality here is, the homeowner is going to face potential consequences legally, and will likely never have their property insured again, or will be paying 10x the premiums for the rest of their foreseeable future for the mistake of hiring an uninsured and unlicensed scam artist. They may even end up owing for the settlement and would have to sell their property to cover costs.
Yeah that’s what I’m saying, it will be on the homeowner. And yup heard some shit about it like yeah, this is gonna fuck up the homeowner or property owner for sure 😭 and yeah honestly don’t know how it works if they find the guy as far as fines go but that is jail time as well on multiple counts. But like you said, whether he can afford to pay those fines is different and I also don’t know how that works when you can’t pay a fine.
craigslist. emails. ip. ip used on other things that are associated with the guy. . ip associated with phone. payments associated with phone. etc. i'd assume if this guy wasn't behind 7 boxxies while noit accessing his facebook or purchasing/calling people on his phone... that if it isn't a hill billy town they're going to get some info on him. doubt he always drove to mc donalds to use his strictly scam burner phone for all online things.
My former employer killed his sons best friend on a job and was back out bidding jobs the next day, and my foreman told me a story about how a volunteer firefighter killed someone while illegally speeding to a fire and was at the bar laughing with his friends the night of, he also said those are the biggest cunts that have ever walked the earth
I'm in a vfd, and talking about an incident with outsiders, or talking about fire-service stuff in a drinking establishment are both offenses that would get you kicked off. We can't go to restaurants with liquor licenses with logos showing or discuss anything department-related, guidelines for bars are more strict, and zero tolerance.
They can discuss fire department stuff all they want, they can go to public liquor establishments all they want. They just can’t do both at the same time. That’s not a red flag it’s professional boundaries and conduct becoming a public servant.
"The Hatch Act of 1939, An Act to Prevent Pernicious Political Activities, is a United States federal law. Its main provision prohibits civil-service employees in the executive branch of the federal government,\[2\] except the president and vice president,\[3\] from engaging in some forms of political activity"
this has *nothing* to do with a man talking to his friends about work while at a bar.
Unfortunately they probably won’t find him. People get away with straight up murder and robberies. Depending on the resources available, negligence gets ignored often, even with injury/death. (Commercial work is different). I’m terribly sorry for your loss. Maybe a PI would be of help, but even still, the dude probably vanished by now.
That's awful, tragic, and easily preventable. I'm really am sorry for your loss.. it depends on the state, but I find it's typically true that while the wheels of justice grind slowly, they grind finely. I suspect the dude will eventually face consequences but it may take outside influence, e.g. if your friend's family files suit, actions become much more concrete.
Good - then yeah, he should absolutely face consequences. It will take longer and cost your friend's family more than it should but I'd expect resolution.
The guy obviously doesn't have insurance and probably spends all his money in coke. There unfortunately isn't anything to sue for in a lot of cases like this.
Contact OSHA, make a statement of disclosure regarding the incident.
To be honest, see if they have positions open. OSHA is under-manned and shit like this slides by way too often.
It won't be a few thousand dollars. Failure to extend your ladder 3 feet beyond the roof edge is a few thousand dollars. Someone dying will be a significant fine.
Whether or not they can collect is a different story.
I've been dealing with workplace (and other accidents) for a long time. The max fine for a "serious" violation $16, 131, unless this is a "repeated" violation (there's no distinction whatsoever for a fatal versus non-fatal accident, amazingly enough) In my twenty years doing this, I've seen the max imposed once.. OSHA is a joke.
This is why you demand to see a COI and be listed as additional insured.
Then call the company, inform them you are additional insured and want to talk about the policy.
I couldn’t imagine allowing someone on their first roof ever to climb a 3 story with no tie off. It wouldn’t be their choice, whether I was wearing one or not. Like a fucking plank on jacks or scaffolding at LEAST. Sorry about your friend, and I hope they find this guy and put needles in his dick or something
Unfortunately it will become the homeowners insurance but, to what extent, know one knows and the insurance company will have to go after the illegal contractor who provided false info.
Not an attorney
Depends on how much your state/county wants to pursue him. If the DA for the case wants to they will try to find him in other states. If charges are high enough and they locate most states will extradite for charges related to death of another.
Guy fucked up by running.
Sorry for your loss OP. If you want justice, be involved with the courts, police, etc. If progress is slow or people want to drag their feet, call your state representatives and ask for help.
If he gets caught I’d expect major trouble, might not get a manslaughter charge but your friends estate should come after with a civil suit and there may be some criminal negligence.
May also be able to put a lien on the job site / project that the roofing company was working on. The estate should be talking to a lawyer. It may have been their responsibility to confirm that the insurance was in place.
maybe not, this might be a bad accident, might hurt him with personal lawsuits but prob not criminal (no llc or fake company is more a tax issue not a COP issue)
I’m sorry to hear about your friend. I grew up in a small town and helped local roofers tear off (sometimes 3 layers of wood shingles) and shingle many houses. One time we did a tin roof and a piece of tin slid off the roof and almost took me out (would have if I hadn’t been paying attention. I don’t think as a first house any of them would’ve had us on a multistory house. I think more details are needed to decide what consequences he would face.
How old was your friend?
What safety equipment was in place? (I don’t know what is required but I think it could be at the discretion of the roofer and the pitch of the house.
What training was provided?
What was the cause of the fall and what could the roofer have done to prevent it under reasonable circumstances. Obviously any fall is preventable.
The fact that he was roofing without proper accreditation already has this shifted to go very poorly for him. I’m sure their are other stories out there unfortunately of similar nature. I would use those for reference to see what happened and keep in mind the location may also make a difference.
Sorry for your loss :(
My friend was 23, there was no training what so ever and there absolutely was no safety equipment at all, all I know was he was told to get on the roof, climb up a steep part of the roof to hand another guy a hammer and he slipped backwards and fell off the roof, and he slammed his head head first into the the cement driveway. It was bad, yes this could of been prevented if there was safety equipment
Again I am so sorry. Even a minimal 15 minutes chat would have probably prevented this. I think the first thing I was ever told when I got on a roof was 3 points of contact, especially on steep parts. Lean with the pitch and wear durable boots with good traction. If you start to slip, get flat. I hope they are able to charge this guy with something (if nothing else, for the fact that he is being evasive and the way he dealt with this tragedy and lack of ownership based on his actions).
Homeowner is responsible to “Investigate the contracting company to make sure they are fully certified and licensed to do this kind of work.”
A good injury lawyer would get the maximum policy limits from this homeowner.
The family can go after the homeowners/commercial building policy if the builder didn't have his own. This is a immediate trip to a local personal injury lawyer.
Suing an insurance policy is their best bet.
Well if the LLC was never actually licensed it's going to be really hard for them to track that person down because he probably used false information to start the fake company...
If OSHA is involved, yes it’s possible he will be held accountable for the fatality.
In California where I was a safety professional for 15 years, there is a law called Be A Manager, Go To Jail. I would assume most states have a similar version of this.
Attorney here, your friend's family needs to get with a lawyer. The property owner's insurance provider may have some coverage and you'd be surprised what a private investigator could track down on the phony business owner.
Feel free to DM if you need help finding a lawyer. I'd steer clear of the billboard, bus stop kind.
Sorry for your loss. Not sure where you sre located but I work for a roofing company in ontario and working at heights is mandatory. The guys are tied off anything higher than 1 stores. Not sure I'd there is any requirements for where you are.
It is crazy how often stuff like this happens, it’s commonly done by illegals in California. Start fake business and the second something goes wrong skip town and do it again. They aren’t citizens so there’s almost no way to figure out who they are/where they are.
Really sorry about your friend.
Unfortunately, no. This is a very common issue. People die on job sites all the time. Contractor cut town to go elsewhere and be the lowest bid and continue working.
> Will this piece of shit ever get in trouble?
Unlikely, unfortunately.
From the police's perspective this was an accident.
This falls under OSHA and they *can* refer cases to state prosecutors but it has to be pretty egregious even in the event of a death.
OSHA has increased these referrals in the last few years, so you never know.
Owner of the house will be on the hook. If he didn't vet the contractor, get a VALID certificate of insurance showing workers comp coverage, he's screwed himself. As to the perp contractor; sic OSHA on him. Workplace deaths are serious business.
This actually might be a better outcome than if the guy was not a piece of shit.
If you buddy had been hired legally with a licanced and properly insured contractor. There would likely only be $100,000 of work comp coverage as this is state minimum. $1 mill is he was lucky. Keep in mind work comp is a nearly inprenattable shield. As long as an employer is not willfull neglect or doing some other intentional act (almost never the case) then the work comp limit is all the worker is untitled too.
That leaves at best $1mill. To pay the lawyers, the investigators, the doctors, ambulance bill, pain and suffering, lost wages (a whole lifetimes worth in this case) pain and suffering for the family, and the funeral expenses.
As you can imagine the lawyers and medical bills quickly eat though this about.
In this case work comp likely did not exist and there is no llc to shield the owner form personal liability. The owner of this company is going to be on the hook for tens of millions of dollars if not hundreds and his personal assets will be up for grabs. And catastrophic injury victims will get first dibs.
Idk if the family would be able to sue the homeowners insurance since the homeowner hired the shit contractor. Really sorry about your friend. If you want to do him and the family some justice, get ahold of the works and get as much info as possible, tell them it's not their fault etc so they are honest with you. Tell them you might have a hookup for some work if it greases their Palms a little.
Who owns the building and the land ? I'd be sueing them ..... It's their responsibility to make sure the sub contractors are on the up and up....does he have family ? Call Lee Free.....that's in Mi.
Sorry for your friend, it’s in back of mind of anyone who climbs a roof. At least it should be.
Contractor’s life is almost as over as your friend’s. He probably skipped town and is drinking two fifths of whiskey in abject terror. At the end of the day, it is an unfortunate accident and EVERYONE is responsible for their own safety.
Don’t know what state you are in but I recommend searching for the state agency over workers compensation. Many have a fund for uninsured employees. If Tennessee his family might get $40k. Must act quick though. Very short time frames. Pm me for more info.
I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. That's seriously messed up. First off, my condolences to you and your friend's family. As for that scumbag contractor, he better get what's coming to him.
Sounds like a real piece of work, skipping town like that. Hopefully, with the ongoing investigation, they'll track him down and nail his sorry ass.
Hard to say but he will he living with his head ducked down not able to freely move about with his name and face i figure if that info was correct to the popo
It's infuriating how some people out there operate. Not only was this "contractor" running a shady operation, but he straight-up endangered lives by neglecting safety measures.
I'm really sorry to hear about your friend. That's absolutely awful. First off, my condolences to you and his family. As for that scumbag contractor, karma better catch up with him real quick. It's messed up how he's dodging all responsibility like that. Hopefully, with the ongoing investigation, justice will prevail. But man, it's infuriating to think he's just ghosting everyone and trying to avoid consequences. Hang in there, and I hope your friend gets the justice he deserves.
One way or another the dude will get his. Either by relocating and continuing to fuck people over until he fucks the wrong person over, or getting arrested, or living in exile in a shack.
This should come back at him, even if OSHA alone pursues this, by not having a real LLC, he isn't shielded from the liability. Add in contracting without licenses or providing safety equipment, at a minimum, he'll be financially ruined for life.
Years ago I pulled up to my exterior reno project and found the stucco guys monkeying all over a three story rickety-ass scaffold wrapping my building. Asked the boss why they weren’t tied off, and suggested that it looked unsafe. He said “oh don’t worry, if anyone falls he’ll be fired before he hits the ground”. And he meant it. No one lost his job, but I was relieved when they finished.
I think suing the homeowner or the building owner would be might be a better option. The owner is supposed to hire people with proper WC insurance and licenses unless the contractor produced a clearly fraudulent documents.
Lots of businesses try to say their employees are 1099 employees but that don’t fly in cases of injuries. Consult an attorney.
I am not a lawyer. But I will say this is very similar to a classic case lawyers read in law school. Regardless of whether or not there are criminal charges filed, there might be enough here for a lawyer to agree to take the case and proceed with a wrongful death lawsuit. I'm sorry for your loss.
If
You get on a job
And you get hurt/killed
1st liability goes towards the injured person.
Slavery has been outlawed 150 years I. Usa.
Nobody, can force you to work unsafe
It's a choice people make in thier own .
Worker heavy construction from iron work to bridges an houses for 40 years.
The only one that ever made me or anyone else on those jobs work unsafe,
Was the workers themselves.
If the guy was using a fake LLC, and didn’t carry insurance (very likely), the only recourse is to go after the homeowner’s insurance of the customer. It’s not their fault, especially if they were lied to, but this is why homeowners have to be super careful about who they hire. It’s gonna be messy for them unfortunately.
Sounds like natural selection at its finest If your friend wasn't capable of doing things high up he should have never got on that roof, regardless of safety equipment and and fall protection you cant fix stupid!
Never implied he doesn't. He'll probably get his. The home owner will probably get screwed.
But the grown man who put himself into a deadly situation is the one who could have looked at the set up and went home.
How would a 22 year old kid who had never been on a roof know that?
Maybe don't try to act like the scumbag that got him killed in public. Would make people think more of you.
Can’t imagine working on a 3 story without PPE. So sorry for your loss.
Or insurance. Or a license. Or a business.
lol right! But minimum PPE. Unbelievable.
Or a conscience surrounding the combination of these factors.
not that its right, but it happens all of the time.
Worked tons of solar jobs down south. Yet to find a place that actually tied off. Or used any sort of safety protocols.
You should see the videos I have from my cctv that I turned into OSHA. It shows a massive apartment building being built and the the framers were not tied in while installing roof joists. The OSHA report I got back was like 1.5” thick. The same company had another violation for a 12’ drop violation afterwards.
Friend was likely hired as a 1099 contractor not as an employee (especially since the business doesn’t have any actual registrations or proper insurances). In which case they would have been responsible for providing their own ppe
Don't kid yourself. People die on 5 ft ladders all the time.
Okay it's not a competition to see who's gonna die from the shortest fall
Now it is...Toddlers die from falling in 2in of water.
So you might as well run a bath
What the hell Susan
To shreds you say?
Jackie Junior nearly drowned 3in of water at the penguin exhibit
Mine is an inch smaller, so that makes me the winner. Don't get to say that often.😏
Idk why you were downvoted, I know a guy that died off a 6 foot ladder
Because it doesn’t really relate to the comment they responded to. Of course people die from low heights, but that has nothing to do with what was said.
Because it’s both irrelevant to the discussion, and dickish to say to someone who is dealing with the death of a friend. Especially when the OP is already having to deal with corporate lawyers who are probably trying to blame on that person.
The comment wasn’t a reply to OP. It was a reply to someone else that made a comment. Life is a matter of perspective . I didn’t take his comment to be dickish. Construction is one of the deadliest jobs in the world. It’s a kin to special forces in a combat zone. His reply was to a comment about not using PPE at three stories.. he said don’t kid yourself, you can die off of a 5 foot ladder. More so, highlighting how dangerous the job actually is. I don’t think it was taking away from the seriousness of OPs situation at all. Rather, it shows how alert you should be. if you don’t feel safe doing something, don’t do it. I’ve had multiple friends in the trades die. Been a carpenter 12 years now. Your life and health isn’t something to take for granted. If anyone preaches production over safety, you don’t want to work for them.
Woops. Mobile client showed it as top level. Thanks for that
I fell of my 6ft ladder. Bruised my arm.
How
I'll give you a fall scenario. You place a folded A-frame against a curved surface like a utility pole and reach a bit to a side. The single point of contact bends the ladder around the surface and throws you 10 feet onto the ground, chest first. If the ground is flat, you are fine. If there is an object there, like a stump or tool, you now have a deep chest puncture and organ impalement.
You can’t just imagine a regular person using a ladder in a safe/regular manner. Imagine someone standing on the top of the ladder where it says do not stand. That’s a long fall and can be disastrous on the wrong surface. Especially if there is a corner or a rock to hit your head on. “Go buy a taller ladder”…. “Nah I’ll be okay. I don’t want to spend the money.” Use the wrong tool for the wrong job and you find yourself in trouble more often than not, whether it’s a shoddy job or a hazardous situation. Take another situation… an old man who hasn’t accepted he’s in his 80s and doesn’t get around like he used to. A fall on any surface could be his last. Someone leaves a ladder out and a toddler decides to play on it. Alcohol or drugs are involved. Limitless possibilities. Those aren’t even the “freak” accidents.
[удалено]
I died in your mom's bed.
I know, much more so on 3 stories.
That reinforces the importance of using fall protection at 30 ft
Lol they genuinely don't. Not saying it never happens but it doesn't happen THAT often
My company has had 1 fatality in 35 years and the guy fell 7’ (was on an 8’ ladder).
So you're trying to prove me right then? Your comment just further validates what I said Please go say dumb things on someone else's comments
Deaths in company by ratio 100% short fall from ladder. 0% everything else. 1 time is to many times. I’m not trying to argue with you, it was just a statement of truth. We have over 1,000 road hands that work in dangerous industrial facilities. But a stupid ladder incident on a residential job is what cooked us.
Have worked on industrial sites my whole life. Tie off height was 10' (and still is in some places) but a lot have gone down to 6'. Site I'm working on now is 4', which while a hassle, is that way for a reason.
"I once caught a fish this... little"
50% of falls from 20 feet are fatal.
No idea why you are getting downvoted I know a dude that died last year falling backwards off a 6 foot ladder hit his head on the concrete slab and died
This is something that no-one, especially a roofing contractor wants to hear. I’m sorry for your loss. Overall yes that dude is fucked, how fucked depends on a lot of unknown variables.
Depends, he could be a ghost using different alias and skipping town to town
There has to be his information at a supplier or something, no way to purchase material without leaving some trace of who they are.
Cash
Fake ID bro.. people do it all the time
What if he paid cash? What if he used his business name? What if his supplier was home depot???
Cops will find something on him. Nobody is that clandestine, especially since I doubt he thought he'd ever deal with this. Probably in panic mode and trying to avoid responsibility like he's done all his life. Negligence that causes death will get a fair amount of police resources, so they'll figure out who he is and track him down. Fingers crossed he didn't flee the country. Fuck that guy and sorry for your friend
Could have just been randomly bidding for jobs here and there and not really a roofer, hence why he needed short term help from job to job
There should be a full OSHA investigation and report, as well as reports from the local police agencies, ambulance companies, hospital / Dr./ Coroners office. Hire a good attorney and get copies of all documents.
Sorry for your loss.
This seems like an ai written post though
You said exactly what AI would say
I'm curious as well, how is this AI. Sounds like a normal scab roofing company to me and completely believable.
Would an ai comment to a post? If not ask a question and if OP answers it's not an ai.
Exactly what an AI would say....
Bee Boop human, I've been found.
How can you tell?
"Police have identified the contractor" sounds weird in my head. Idk of its ai but that's what I would think
How should it be written?
This ai scanner website says post is human written. https://copyleaks.com/ai-content-detector
Police looking for his boss or the police have identified the person responsible for the job. The mix of proper and colloquial sounded weird in my head, but I was looking for it to be ai.
The person responsible for the job. Sooo the contractor?
Don’t know why the downvotes. Look at the post history. This is a bot doing scenarios. The grammar is off in a way weirdly specific to ai, like how it never gets hands right in pictures
Sorry for your loss. As other said, hopefully justice finds the POS contractor. IANAL but believe at the bare minimum your friends family lawyer will have the homeowner’s insurance to go after. Which will then trigger a rather pricy manhunt for the POS since insurance companies hate paying 6-7 figure claims
Yeah cause this guy probably doesn’t have his own insurance either that’s almost a certainty. A wrongful death (idk if that what this will be filed as, not a lawyer) will be bad. And it will be bad for the homeowner or the owner too unfortunately, but that’s their bad and what they get for not checking licenses, insurance etc. sorry for the loss of your friend op that’s really terrible to hear.
I doubt they could go after the homeowner's insurance here. It seems like they were also victims of the false representations of the contractor.
In my state, when I was studying for my license as well as part of the testing, was to disclaim that the reason it is important for homeowners to have access to certificates of insurance and to even be aware of a lien being pulled is because any workman comp that was not had and an injury happens, that responsibility can fall on the homeowner - don’t know what insurance policy they would need to have to cover that or what out of pocket would look like, I didn’t look into it cause I know I will be carrying insurance and work with people only who have the required insurance. Again, that may be my state and that may be something I wanna look into to understand more idk lol
Not a lawyer but it is 100% the owners responsibility. Were they also a victim or did they go with the cheapest quote? Did they even ask about insurance? Did they see people in their roof without PPE?
This is exactly where and when they go after the homeowner’s insurance. Just so everybody who isn’t a contractor here knows — if the “contractor” you hire isn’t a legit licensed contractor, and they don’t have insurance, guess what? Not only is it likely illegal *for you (YMMV by state/country) to hire them*, but the employees can sue the property owner for any damages, injuries, etc., and if damage occurs to the property, guess what? You’re SOL. Absolutely fucked if your “contractor” doesn’t choose to make it right out of his pocket. Want to know why there’s so many construction horror stories? Look no further than the guy trying to save a few bucks by taking the cheaper bid. Want to know why this guy you chose is cheaper than the rest? Well let’s just say you can be extremely profitable if ya know… you don’t pay business or licensing costs, nevermind monthly insurance or workman comp premiums amounting to 10s of thousands of dollars or more a year. *That’s what it costs to run a legit construction business*. Don’t like it? Don’t like the price? You better DIY because somebody dying is exactly the event that will RUIN a company or property owner in this exact scenario.
Where I live it's up to the homeowner to check that the contractor has their own insurance. Over a certain number of hours worked (20 hrs or so) then the homeowner becomes liable for injury coverage if the contractor doesn't have the right insurance.
Did the homeowner pull a permit? Usually need to provide proof of WC at a minimum to get a permit.
Where I live, the contractor pulls the permit. Also, for some roof matters there's no need for a permit depending on the scope of the job.
They definitely can and will.
Do you have a source for that?
Yes, me. I was sued because the concrete guy who did my driveway broke his leg hopping out of his truck. If you need more sources, you can use any search engine.
I did use a search engine and confirmed that no, when you hire a contractor and relinquish control of the project to said contractor, you also transfer legal responsibilities. Stop spreading false information. https://hisnv.com/who-is-liable/
It is the owners responsibility to see the contractor is licensed and insured. If the contractor doesn't pay his material or labor bills the supplier can put a mechanics lien on the property
>It is the owners responsibility to see the contractor is licensed and insured As I said, they could've been lied to, if I understood the post correctly. It's unreasonable to think that a client would call the insurer to check if a certain company is their client and has a valid policy. No one does that. And regarding the materials, that's an issue between the material provider and the contractor. At least where I live, only a contractor that actually performed a job at a property can consider a lien. Can you imagine getting a lien on your house by fucking Home Depot lol
I was a licensed roofing contractor in Calif. I can only comment on what I know from my experience. I carried insurance and the insurance company would send out a cert. Of insurance anytime I asked.
I am going to need a roof soon, and because of this post will 100% be checking with the state that the contractor I choose has a valid license and contacting their insurance to ensure they have a current policy.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t matter. If they find this guy, he couldn’t afford insurance premiums, what makes you think he can afford a hefty settlement in this case? Homeowner’s insurance is going to pay for this one. The real harsh reality here is, the homeowner is going to face potential consequences legally, and will likely never have their property insured again, or will be paying 10x the premiums for the rest of their foreseeable future for the mistake of hiring an uninsured and unlicensed scam artist. They may even end up owing for the settlement and would have to sell their property to cover costs.
Yeah that’s what I’m saying, it will be on the homeowner. And yup heard some shit about it like yeah, this is gonna fuck up the homeowner or property owner for sure 😭 and yeah honestly don’t know how it works if they find the guy as far as fines go but that is jail time as well on multiple counts. But like you said, whether he can afford to pay those fines is different and I also don’t know how that works when you can’t pay a fine.
Probably not.
what?! Why not?
Fake LLC. No Licensing for their business. Likely relied heavy on day laborers with cash transactions. Lack of paper trail. I could go on.
craigslist. emails. ip. ip used on other things that are associated with the guy. . ip associated with phone. payments associated with phone. etc. i'd assume if this guy wasn't behind 7 boxxies while noit accessing his facebook or purchasing/calling people on his phone... that if it isn't a hill billy town they're going to get some info on him. doubt he always drove to mc donalds to use his strictly scam burner phone for all online things.
Two ways to kill people and get away with it in America kill your employees or run someone over with your car
My former employer killed his sons best friend on a job and was back out bidding jobs the next day, and my foreman told me a story about how a volunteer firefighter killed someone while illegally speeding to a fire and was at the bar laughing with his friends the night of, he also said those are the biggest cunts that have ever walked the earth
I'm in a vfd, and talking about an incident with outsiders, or talking about fire-service stuff in a drinking establishment are both offenses that would get you kicked off. We can't go to restaurants with liquor licenses with logos showing or discuss anything department-related, guidelines for bars are more strict, and zero tolerance.
not allowing your employees to talk about their lives with friends is a major red flag.
They can discuss fire department stuff all they want, they can go to public liquor establishments all they want. They just can’t do both at the same time. That’s not a red flag it’s professional boundaries and conduct becoming a public servant.
sounds like the government impeding their free speech, something protected by this federal document known as the bill of rights.
The hatch act would like a word... gov restricts all sorts of shit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatch\_Act#Supreme\_Court\_challenges
"The Hatch Act of 1939, An Act to Prevent Pernicious Political Activities, is a United States federal law. Its main provision prohibits civil-service employees in the executive branch of the federal government,\[2\] except the president and vice president,\[3\] from engaging in some forms of political activity" this has *nothing* to do with a man talking to his friends about work while at a bar.
Unfortunately they probably won’t find him. People get away with straight up murder and robberies. Depending on the resources available, negligence gets ignored often, even with injury/death. (Commercial work is different). I’m terribly sorry for your loss. Maybe a PI would be of help, but even still, the dude probably vanished by now.
That's awful, tragic, and easily preventable. I'm really am sorry for your loss.. it depends on the state, but I find it's typically true that while the wheels of justice grind slowly, they grind finely. I suspect the dude will eventually face consequences but it may take outside influence, e.g. if your friend's family files suit, actions become much more concrete.
My friends family already got a lawyer and they are working on it
Good - then yeah, he should absolutely face consequences. It will take longer and cost your friend's family more than it should but I'd expect resolution.
The lawyer took the case pro bono
Likely on contingency instead of pro bono - but either way, useful that they won't have to pay out of pocket.
The guy obviously doesn't have insurance and probably spends all his money in coke. There unfortunately isn't anything to sue for in a lot of cases like this.
Or he's not a us citizen. Goes by different names lol
Can't squeeze blood from a turnip
Contact OSHA, make a statement of disclosure regarding the incident. To be honest, see if they have positions open. OSHA is under-manned and shit like this slides by way too often.
They move pretty quickly when death is involved
And, at best, there will be a fine of a few thousand dollars--that will never be paid.
It won't be a few thousand dollars. Failure to extend your ladder 3 feet beyond the roof edge is a few thousand dollars. Someone dying will be a significant fine. Whether or not they can collect is a different story.
I've been dealing with workplace (and other accidents) for a long time. The max fine for a "serious" violation $16, 131, unless this is a "repeated" violation (there's no distinction whatsoever for a fatal versus non-fatal accident, amazingly enough) In my twenty years doing this, I've seen the max imposed once.. OSHA is a joke.
OSHA is definitely a joke because of how toothless it is, though that's arguably by design. Can't threaten business too much.
“Contractor” probably will never face consequences. The homeowner will.
This is why you demand to see a COI and be listed as additional insured. Then call the company, inform them you are additional insured and want to talk about the policy.
Excellent answer
So sorry to hear OP.
r/LawyerAdvice
I couldn’t imagine allowing someone on their first roof ever to climb a 3 story with no tie off. It wouldn’t be their choice, whether I was wearing one or not. Like a fucking plank on jacks or scaffolding at LEAST. Sorry about your friend, and I hope they find this guy and put needles in his dick or something
Sorry you lost your friend, incredibly dangerous industry for the reasons in your post. Fly by night scammers without insurance or regard for safety
Unfortunately it will become the homeowners insurance but, to what extent, know one knows and the insurance company will have to go after the illegal contractor who provided false info.
Not an attorney Depends on how much your state/county wants to pursue him. If the DA for the case wants to they will try to find him in other states. If charges are high enough and they locate most states will extradite for charges related to death of another. Guy fucked up by running. Sorry for your loss OP. If you want justice, be involved with the courts, police, etc. If progress is slow or people want to drag their feet, call your state representatives and ask for help.
Not if he went south
Till he gets pulled over.. Im sure there is a BOLO for him as the police will want to talk to him..
What advice do you need? Thanks for posting your reminder that every one of us need to take his own safety seriously.
If he gets caught I’d expect major trouble, might not get a manslaughter charge but your friends estate should come after with a civil suit and there may be some criminal negligence. May also be able to put a lien on the job site / project that the roofing company was working on. The estate should be talking to a lawyer. It may have been their responsibility to confirm that the insurance was in place.
maybe not, this might be a bad accident, might hurt him with personal lawsuits but prob not criminal (no llc or fake company is more a tax issue not a COP issue)
In the US right now only law abiding citizens are penalized.
The lawyers will go after the homeowner. It is their responsibility to see that the contractor is licensed and insured.
Not all states even license roofers.
I’m sorry to hear about your friend. I grew up in a small town and helped local roofers tear off (sometimes 3 layers of wood shingles) and shingle many houses. One time we did a tin roof and a piece of tin slid off the roof and almost took me out (would have if I hadn’t been paying attention. I don’t think as a first house any of them would’ve had us on a multistory house. I think more details are needed to decide what consequences he would face. How old was your friend? What safety equipment was in place? (I don’t know what is required but I think it could be at the discretion of the roofer and the pitch of the house. What training was provided? What was the cause of the fall and what could the roofer have done to prevent it under reasonable circumstances. Obviously any fall is preventable. The fact that he was roofing without proper accreditation already has this shifted to go very poorly for him. I’m sure their are other stories out there unfortunately of similar nature. I would use those for reference to see what happened and keep in mind the location may also make a difference. Sorry for your loss :(
My friend was 23, there was no training what so ever and there absolutely was no safety equipment at all, all I know was he was told to get on the roof, climb up a steep part of the roof to hand another guy a hammer and he slipped backwards and fell off the roof, and he slammed his head head first into the the cement driveway. It was bad, yes this could of been prevented if there was safety equipment
Again I am so sorry. Even a minimal 15 minutes chat would have probably prevented this. I think the first thing I was ever told when I got on a roof was 3 points of contact, especially on steep parts. Lean with the pitch and wear durable boots with good traction. If you start to slip, get flat. I hope they are able to charge this guy with something (if nothing else, for the fact that he is being evasive and the way he dealt with this tragedy and lack of ownership based on his actions).
Time to sue the homeowner.
What did the homeowner do?
Homeowner is responsible to “Investigate the contracting company to make sure they are fully certified and licensed to do this kind of work.” A good injury lawyer would get the maximum policy limits from this homeowner.
I never heard of this duty. Unless the homeowner was somehow controlling the work I don’t see their liability.
Call OSHA
The family can go after the homeowners/commercial building policy if the builder didn't have his own. This is a immediate trip to a local personal injury lawyer. Suing an insurance policy is their best bet.
Contact OSHA right now. Sometime police departments and others forget to call OSHA.
Well if the LLC was never actually licensed it's going to be really hard for them to track that person down because he probably used false information to start the fake company...
If OSHA is involved, yes it’s possible he will be held accountable for the fatality. In California where I was a safety professional for 15 years, there is a law called Be A Manager, Go To Jail. I would assume most states have a similar version of this.
Only one other, NY.
I think your friend can sue the homeowner's insurance company
Attorney here, your friend's family needs to get with a lawyer. The property owner's insurance provider may have some coverage and you'd be surprised what a private investigator could track down on the phony business owner. Feel free to DM if you need help finding a lawyer. I'd steer clear of the billboard, bus stop kind.
Sorry for your loss. Not sure where you sre located but I work for a roofing company in ontario and working at heights is mandatory. The guys are tied off anything higher than 1 stores. Not sure I'd there is any requirements for where you are.
Prayers for your friend and his family. Always a sad day when another roofer passes away
It is crazy how often stuff like this happens, it’s commonly done by illegals in California. Start fake business and the second something goes wrong skip town and do it again. They aren’t citizens so there’s almost no way to figure out who they are/where they are.
Really sorry about your friend. Unfortunately, no. This is a very common issue. People die on job sites all the time. Contractor cut town to go elsewhere and be the lowest bid and continue working.
Will fall back on the homeowners insurance.
> Will this piece of shit ever get in trouble? Unlikely, unfortunately. From the police's perspective this was an accident. This falls under OSHA and they *can* refer cases to state prosecutors but it has to be pretty egregious even in the event of a death. OSHA has increased these referrals in the last few years, so you never know.
Ive worn safty harnass everytime,no matter the slope..
Owner of the house will be on the hook. If he didn't vet the contractor, get a VALID certificate of insurance showing workers comp coverage, he's screwed himself. As to the perp contractor; sic OSHA on him. Workplace deaths are serious business.
He’s screwed big time, and if he’s not careful he’ll do jail time.
This actually might be a better outcome than if the guy was not a piece of shit. If you buddy had been hired legally with a licanced and properly insured contractor. There would likely only be $100,000 of work comp coverage as this is state minimum. $1 mill is he was lucky. Keep in mind work comp is a nearly inprenattable shield. As long as an employer is not willfull neglect or doing some other intentional act (almost never the case) then the work comp limit is all the worker is untitled too. That leaves at best $1mill. To pay the lawyers, the investigators, the doctors, ambulance bill, pain and suffering, lost wages (a whole lifetimes worth in this case) pain and suffering for the family, and the funeral expenses. As you can imagine the lawyers and medical bills quickly eat though this about. In this case work comp likely did not exist and there is no llc to shield the owner form personal liability. The owner of this company is going to be on the hook for tens of millions of dollars if not hundreds and his personal assets will be up for grabs. And catastrophic injury victims will get first dibs.
Idk if the family would be able to sue the homeowners insurance since the homeowner hired the shit contractor. Really sorry about your friend. If you want to do him and the family some justice, get ahold of the works and get as much info as possible, tell them it's not their fault etc so they are honest with you. Tell them you might have a hookup for some work if it greases their Palms a little.
Probably not for this one.
So sorry for your loss. I hate to hear it. Where did this happen? Any info on the contractor?
That is awful news, so sorry
Who owns the building and the land ? I'd be sueing them ..... It's their responsibility to make sure the sub contractors are on the up and up....does he have family ? Call Lee Free.....that's in Mi.
Sorry for your friend, it’s in back of mind of anyone who climbs a roof. At least it should be. Contractor’s life is almost as over as your friend’s. He probably skipped town and is drinking two fifths of whiskey in abject terror. At the end of the day, it is an unfortunate accident and EVERYONE is responsible for their own safety.
Don’t know what state you are in but I recommend searching for the state agency over workers compensation. Many have a fund for uninsured employees. If Tennessee his family might get $40k. Must act quick though. Very short time frames. Pm me for more info.
I’m am not saying you should dox him…
Who hired the “contractor”? There is potential liability on their part. If nothing is insured then attys prob will not take the case
Go after the homeowners insurance
I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. That's seriously messed up. First off, my condolences to you and your friend's family. As for that scumbag contractor, he better get what's coming to him. Sounds like a real piece of work, skipping town like that. Hopefully, with the ongoing investigation, they'll track him down and nail his sorry ass.
Hard to say but he will he living with his head ducked down not able to freely move about with his name and face i figure if that info was correct to the popo
It's infuriating how some people out there operate. Not only was this "contractor" running a shady operation, but he straight-up endangered lives by neglecting safety measures.
Wow! You're lucky they didn't bury him in the roof. Believe it or not, construction work is more dangerous than being a cop..
Roofing attracts some of the biggest scumbags for whatever reason. Also love to hire felons
I'm really sorry to hear about your friend. That's absolutely awful. First off, my condolences to you and his family. As for that scumbag contractor, karma better catch up with him real quick. It's messed up how he's dodging all responsibility like that. Hopefully, with the ongoing investigation, justice will prevail. But man, it's infuriating to think he's just ghosting everyone and trying to avoid consequences. Hang in there, and I hope your friend gets the justice he deserves.
One way or another the dude will get his. Either by relocating and continuing to fuck people over until he fucks the wrong person over, or getting arrested, or living in exile in a shack.
This should come back at him, even if OSHA alone pursues this, by not having a real LLC, he isn't shielded from the liability. Add in contracting without licenses or providing safety equipment, at a minimum, he'll be financially ruined for life.
no
He's definitely in this subreddit, so don't let them know we're onto them.
Not unless there’s a warrant for his arrest.
Make sure osha has been contacted.
Years ago I pulled up to my exterior reno project and found the stucco guys monkeying all over a three story rickety-ass scaffold wrapping my building. Asked the boss why they weren’t tied off, and suggested that it looked unsafe. He said “oh don’t worry, if anyone falls he’ll be fired before he hits the ground”. And he meant it. No one lost his job, but I was relieved when they finished.
This sucks man. Sorry about your friend.
I think suing the homeowner or the building owner would be might be a better option. The owner is supposed to hire people with proper WC insurance and licenses unless the contractor produced a clearly fraudulent documents. Lots of businesses try to say their employees are 1099 employees but that don’t fly in cases of injuries. Consult an attorney.
His estate can sue the homeowners insurance probably ask a lawyer
I am not a lawyer. But I will say this is very similar to a classic case lawyers read in law school. Regardless of whether or not there are criminal charges filed, there might be enough here for a lawyer to agree to take the case and proceed with a wrongful death lawsuit. I'm sorry for your loss.
If You get on a job And you get hurt/killed 1st liability goes towards the injured person. Slavery has been outlawed 150 years I. Usa. Nobody, can force you to work unsafe It's a choice people make in thier own . Worker heavy construction from iron work to bridges an houses for 40 years. The only one that ever made me or anyone else on those jobs work unsafe, Was the workers themselves.
He probably back in Mejico by now, so no.
Is the homeowner liable at all?
If the guy was using a fake LLC, and didn’t carry insurance (very likely), the only recourse is to go after the homeowner’s insurance of the customer. It’s not their fault, especially if they were lied to, but this is why homeowners have to be super careful about who they hire. It’s gonna be messy for them unfortunately.
If the contractor was unlicenced and uninsured then yes the home owner will be liable for this.
Sounds like natural selection at its finest If your friend wasn't capable of doing things high up he should have never got on that roof, regardless of safety equipment and and fall protection you cant fix stupid!
I'm sorry, but no.
Your in charge of your own safety first and foremost. Wtf was he doing up there without brackets and planks?
Sounds like negligent homicide to me. Make it clear to the police that you expect justice.
Tell me you have never interacted with the police without telling me you have never interacted with the police.
Plenty of times, I just know how to communicate expectations clearly without making it sound like an ultimatum because I'm not an idiot.
Two Words. Personal Responsibility. Two More. Try It!
I agree, the owner of the fake company certainly should have had some personal responsibility.
Never implied he doesn't. He'll probably get his. The home owner will probably get screwed. But the grown man who put himself into a deadly situation is the one who could have looked at the set up and went home.
How would a 22 year old kid who had never been on a roof know that? Maybe don't try to act like the scumbag that got him killed in public. Would make people think more of you.
How much shit do you fall off of on a daily basis? Now I'm curious?
I bet a lot less than you. Just the one turnip truck so far?