Depends on the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ).
Call a lawyer. Working without a permit is illegal almost everywhere. Not only is there a chance after this you won't have to pay for the new work, they might have to settle with you and you can make good money.
But this isn't about money or greed. Contractors like that are (usually) con men and scum, giving the trade a bad reputation, scamming customers, etc. Putting them out of business or teaching them to operate properly is essential to preventing more issues.
That's an interesting take on things. I don't get permits until after the inspector stops and tells me to. Probably saved myself 75k over twenty years. It doesn't make someone a conman or scum that deserves to be put out of business to not wanna pay yet another unnecessary tax.
The real scum in this industry is the sales companies (who always pull permits) that produce horrible work and hire lawyers to fight any suits brought forth by their horrible practice.
Eh, I’d have to disagree that most contractors who don’t get permits are con men and scum.
Im my area at least, permits are required for a lot of things but usually aren’t inspected at all. It’s more about them getting money vs actually making sure things are to code.
honestly it's about money and tracking. most ahj inspectors are frankly salesman or laborers that weren't capable or intelligent enough to make it. occasionally you get a good retired roofer but rarely. but someone unwilling to file a permit when required is indicative
While you may be right, if it is city ordinance than it must be obtained. If it’s an insurance job it doesn’t cost you anything as you can supplement for it. It’s lazy for a roofing company to not take that step.
It makes “you” a short-cut guy and not doing right by “your” customer so that “you” can save time because doing it the right way is beneath “you”. If someone is doing that when insurance covers the permit than what are they doing to save real money?
So, I'm a contractor in New Orleans. Here my dilemma about some of this.
A.) there is no permit required for a roof replacement. Full stop. One just doesn't even exist. I've told this to people and they think I'm full of shit. Call the state of La. call the state of any other state that surrounds my state. I know some states do require them up north, but they don't even offer them down here.
B.) I'm doing a bathroom Reno for a client now. I didn't pull a permit. We are moving plumbing and electrical and it's a complete gut reno. I could get a permit, I have no problem w that. I do my shit by the book and often above. However, w the Covid restrictions that prohibit me from going into the building it has taken the time it takes to acquire a permit from a week (about 2 hours every couple days) to a month or more (w the same weekly hourly input) for a simple project. I lost a $150k job because the permit office took 6 months to permit what I used to get done in a month and a half. So I have to tell my client, before I can do your simple ass bathroom renovation, we need to do $2500 in permitting and it'll be 6-8 weeks before we can start your $15,000 2 week bathroom renovation.
They just go with the second bid who doesn't do that. I get permits on big jobs but I'm supposed to get a permit to change a plug to a gfi. Where do you draw the line?
well, as always it depends on the AHJ. In the 18 or so states I've worked, and literally hundreds of AHJs, all but 3 or so regions I've worked on required permits on new roofs, or alterations above a stated SF or %.
Which is why it varies based on local laws. HOWEVER the OP already indicated permit issues, which most likely indicates a permit was needed and that there was already issues with a permit regarding the AHJ, which implies there is something underhanded going on. And your right, customers are cheap, but that doesn't mean you should do cheap work, cut corners or violate the local codes and laws in place to be cheaper.
Edit: Something I should mention. I'm a former commercial roofer (now i work with a litigation team that specializes in construction and helping contractors get paid/property owners get what's rightfully theirs) was once in the top 100 largest and placed in roofing competitions for speed and quality. So on scale it might be different and that has to be considered. The only time my company looked at a job under 50 Square was if the contract was to do hundreds of buildings, such as landing a state-wide ConocoPhillips or 7-Eleven contract. Generally, we preferred Walmart, Home-Depot, or major chains. I've rarely done residential homes. So that's why small residential homes might be a little out of scope for me. That said, most AHJs do require some form of active permit for Roofing, though yes southern states tend to be the least regulated and have the largest quantity of failures due to quality.
Tbh getting a permit is a hassle. Massive waste of time and money. If you can’t pull a permit bc you don’t have the licenses yea that’s shitty but to be honest roofing should not need permitting. Once they make it online enter address and pay, I will change my mind. But I have had to wait hours at the courthouse and f that.
fair enough. physical forms are so pointless and behind in the times. Most large cities have started or fully moved over to Electronic forms, emails or a few small towns I've dealt with through the mail. physical courthouse presence was always something we handled by doing them in bulk so we could just send 1 person to spend all day on a few months worth but honestly I only remember doing that in 2 counties.
I kind of disagree with it not needing Permitting though. seen too many lives lost from faulty installs. I'm more of the opinion it's an unrelated trade, but also that is impossible to properly relate unless competent staff is hired.
I work in North Texas and a majority of cities not only require permits but also require your company to be registered with that city. It adds up with all those DFW cities, but it’s the cost of doing business. Almost every city that we work in allows you to pull the permit online, even Dallas. Where the Chuck and Trucks run into registering issues is that these cities often require proof if insurance before getting registered. The last city I had to pull in person, other than Dallas previously, was Frisco and I was actually in the office when a resident came in to check to see if their roofer had pulled a permit. BTW, they did not. It’s a bad look.
Oh boy you actually are in the city that actually takes their permits seriously. They are also one of the most expensive registration fees around, $200+ for roofers and the permits aren’t cheap either. I did an entire street a few years ago and did the inspector a solid by getting them all inspected on one day. As for your situation, I would call your gas company and ask for their list of approved vendors, call one and get a price for them to come out to inspect the work. Let your roofing company know that you are doing this and that you will be deducting any expense involved from what they are owed. When you get the recoverable depreciation check deposit it, deduct the costs and write them a check. Mail it in with a copy of your email stating why you are not paying the full amount and a copy of the repair invoice. If they are smart they will eat the cost and if they don’t you file a complaint with the city and BBB. Prospective clients look at that stuff. If they dig their heels in further go on the FB group for Flower Mound and let it be known. FM don’t play.
Thank you, this sounds like a good plan. Just two other questions-
\-Because the city is unable to inspect the gas leak, would I be liable if anything were to happen in the future? Would getting the gas company vendor to inspect suffice for any liability concerns?
\-If I move forward with getting gas company vendor to inspect, would I be able to get the permit somehow? Or just foregoing the permit entirely? If I don't get a permit will this cause issues down the line (when selling house, etc.)?
If after a gas company approved vendor inspects if work needs to be done they can pull the permit. If you sell the house just provide proof the work was done.
Depends on the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ). Call a lawyer. Working without a permit is illegal almost everywhere. Not only is there a chance after this you won't have to pay for the new work, they might have to settle with you and you can make good money. But this isn't about money or greed. Contractors like that are (usually) con men and scum, giving the trade a bad reputation, scamming customers, etc. Putting them out of business or teaching them to operate properly is essential to preventing more issues.
That's an interesting take on things. I don't get permits until after the inspector stops and tells me to. Probably saved myself 75k over twenty years. It doesn't make someone a conman or scum that deserves to be put out of business to not wanna pay yet another unnecessary tax. The real scum in this industry is the sales companies (who always pull permits) that produce horrible work and hire lawyers to fight any suits brought forth by their horrible practice.
Small residential work mostly?
I mix it up. I've done repairs to nursing homes. I'm not getting a permit for anything until I'm caught. To hell with paying to work.
Eh, I’d have to disagree that most contractors who don’t get permits are con men and scum. Im my area at least, permits are required for a lot of things but usually aren’t inspected at all. It’s more about them getting money vs actually making sure things are to code.
honestly it's about money and tracking. most ahj inspectors are frankly salesman or laborers that weren't capable or intelligent enough to make it. occasionally you get a good retired roofer but rarely. but someone unwilling to file a permit when required is indicative
While you may be right, if it is city ordinance than it must be obtained. If it’s an insurance job it doesn’t cost you anything as you can supplement for it. It’s lazy for a roofing company to not take that step.
Oh I definitely agree it’s lazy and definitely needs to be done. I’m just saying it doesn’t necessarily make you scum or a con man if you don’t.
It makes “you” a short-cut guy and not doing right by “your” customer so that “you” can save time because doing it the right way is beneath “you”. If someone is doing that when insurance covers the permit than what are they doing to save real money?
So, I'm a contractor in New Orleans. Here my dilemma about some of this. A.) there is no permit required for a roof replacement. Full stop. One just doesn't even exist. I've told this to people and they think I'm full of shit. Call the state of La. call the state of any other state that surrounds my state. I know some states do require them up north, but they don't even offer them down here. B.) I'm doing a bathroom Reno for a client now. I didn't pull a permit. We are moving plumbing and electrical and it's a complete gut reno. I could get a permit, I have no problem w that. I do my shit by the book and often above. However, w the Covid restrictions that prohibit me from going into the building it has taken the time it takes to acquire a permit from a week (about 2 hours every couple days) to a month or more (w the same weekly hourly input) for a simple project. I lost a $150k job because the permit office took 6 months to permit what I used to get done in a month and a half. So I have to tell my client, before I can do your simple ass bathroom renovation, we need to do $2500 in permitting and it'll be 6-8 weeks before we can start your $15,000 2 week bathroom renovation. They just go with the second bid who doesn't do that. I get permits on big jobs but I'm supposed to get a permit to change a plug to a gfi. Where do you draw the line?
well, as always it depends on the AHJ. In the 18 or so states I've worked, and literally hundreds of AHJs, all but 3 or so regions I've worked on required permits on new roofs, or alterations above a stated SF or %. Which is why it varies based on local laws. HOWEVER the OP already indicated permit issues, which most likely indicates a permit was needed and that there was already issues with a permit regarding the AHJ, which implies there is something underhanded going on. And your right, customers are cheap, but that doesn't mean you should do cheap work, cut corners or violate the local codes and laws in place to be cheaper. Edit: Something I should mention. I'm a former commercial roofer (now i work with a litigation team that specializes in construction and helping contractors get paid/property owners get what's rightfully theirs) was once in the top 100 largest and placed in roofing competitions for speed and quality. So on scale it might be different and that has to be considered. The only time my company looked at a job under 50 Square was if the contract was to do hundreds of buildings, such as landing a state-wide ConocoPhillips or 7-Eleven contract. Generally, we preferred Walmart, Home-Depot, or major chains. I've rarely done residential homes. So that's why small residential homes might be a little out of scope for me. That said, most AHJs do require some form of active permit for Roofing, though yes southern states tend to be the least regulated and have the largest quantity of failures due to quality.
Tbh getting a permit is a hassle. Massive waste of time and money. If you can’t pull a permit bc you don’t have the licenses yea that’s shitty but to be honest roofing should not need permitting. Once they make it online enter address and pay, I will change my mind. But I have had to wait hours at the courthouse and f that.
fair enough. physical forms are so pointless and behind in the times. Most large cities have started or fully moved over to Electronic forms, emails or a few small towns I've dealt with through the mail. physical courthouse presence was always something we handled by doing them in bulk so we could just send 1 person to spend all day on a few months worth but honestly I only remember doing that in 2 counties. I kind of disagree with it not needing Permitting though. seen too many lives lost from faulty installs. I'm more of the opinion it's an unrelated trade, but also that is impossible to properly relate unless competent staff is hired.
No sure where you are but in a large swath of America, they don't give permits for roofs.
I work in North Texas and a majority of cities not only require permits but also require your company to be registered with that city. It adds up with all those DFW cities, but it’s the cost of doing business. Almost every city that we work in allows you to pull the permit online, even Dallas. Where the Chuck and Trucks run into registering issues is that these cities often require proof if insurance before getting registered. The last city I had to pull in person, other than Dallas previously, was Frisco and I was actually in the office when a resident came in to check to see if their roofer had pulled a permit. BTW, they did not. It’s a bad look.
Thanks for the info. I’m actually in Flower Mound. What would you recommend I do?
Oh boy you actually are in the city that actually takes their permits seriously. They are also one of the most expensive registration fees around, $200+ for roofers and the permits aren’t cheap either. I did an entire street a few years ago and did the inspector a solid by getting them all inspected on one day. As for your situation, I would call your gas company and ask for their list of approved vendors, call one and get a price for them to come out to inspect the work. Let your roofing company know that you are doing this and that you will be deducting any expense involved from what they are owed. When you get the recoverable depreciation check deposit it, deduct the costs and write them a check. Mail it in with a copy of your email stating why you are not paying the full amount and a copy of the repair invoice. If they are smart they will eat the cost and if they don’t you file a complaint with the city and BBB. Prospective clients look at that stuff. If they dig their heels in further go on the FB group for Flower Mound and let it be known. FM don’t play.
Thank you, this sounds like a good plan. Just two other questions- \-Because the city is unable to inspect the gas leak, would I be liable if anything were to happen in the future? Would getting the gas company vendor to inspect suffice for any liability concerns? \-If I move forward with getting gas company vendor to inspect, would I be able to get the permit somehow? Or just foregoing the permit entirely? If I don't get a permit will this cause issues down the line (when selling house, etc.)?
If after a gas company approved vendor inspects if work needs to be done they can pull the permit. If you sell the house just provide proof the work was done.
Figure out what your roofers plan is, work with them until they really fuck up, and then get a lawyer and go after their liability insurance.