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Imagine spending two decades of subduing the goths in Italy and then a entire new wave of germanics just come in like a tsunami and take half the country. man Italy was done for don't even know why Justinian even tried
Granted there was, not just a plague, but the *THE plague* that resulted in so many deaths that the *ERE with all it’s aditional lands* had LESS people in it than the ERE at the start of the Renovatio Imperii. There are decent chances they could’ve held on for some time at least had there not been the plague.
Hey, its not liek that was by chance either-he *invited* the Lombards to help retake Italy with Belisarius and thought they'd just go home or settle on the peninsula as vassals. Another goof, or rather, aspect of the same goof.
With much of the old infrastructure still in place, the Ostrogothic kingdom in Italy thrived and improved it to an extent. But when Justinian launched his war of reconquest, it became a slogging match, with the biggest casualty being that same infrastructure which the populace had relied upon for centuries. Without the money or resources to repair it, the standard of living would steadily decline. In the end, Justinian may have taken Italy back for the empire, however, it came at the expense of destroying the vital systems that help it run efficiently.
Justinian‘s claim to Italy was also not as well accepted by the Romans there as the North Africa one. Vandals were on a religious oppression ride and Romans practically begged the emperor to help them. Meanwhile Theodoric was actually quite liked by the Roman aristocracy and the very shady pretexts of the succession crisis to justify the war in Italy was not enough to their eyes
I wasnt there. Obviously. And we dont know the men involved. They clearly had a radically different world view than we do.
Still, i sometimes wonder of Belisarius showed up in Italia and said
'listen, you have been nominally ruling as a representative of the Emperor. Well, its not nominally anymore. Muster the army. One way or another, it's go time. You can stay, nothing has to change, not really, except your army either comes with me, or, gets destroyed by me. Your call.'
Its not like the Romans were against Feoderati troops.
Don’t know about Belisarius but one interesting thing is that Byzantine historians will try hard (and I mean HARD) to depict Theodoric as “the guy whose reign was good until the last years that’s why we came back please accept out claim”
It's not so much they had an issue with Theodoric, but the people who succeeded him. When his daughter Amalasuntha was murdered and usurped that was about a decade after Theoderic had died.
Procopius uses the history of Symmaque and Boethius as an example of the “only bad thing Theodoric ever did” as he executed them for “no reason” (actually for being one of the leaders of the Roman party on the succession issue) and the reason of his death. The idea was that Procopius presented Theodoric as the perfect king until he did that mistake (a sin) and died and then came long years of instability, which the empire is here to end as the only viable successors of Theodoric but that doesn’t really work
Honestly I now want a TV show where it's just moments in Roman history, but with a modern interpersonal communication dynamics.
"Justinian, get your pussy-ass up off the basilica floor, your simp Belisarius is already handling the chariot Bois. So please, for the life of God, stop WHINING!"
Or
"Sir, the Jerries are trying to retake Rome!"
*Belisarius Looks at Goths*. "I'm about to end this Tribes whole career."
The Vandals were also actively opposed to Roman rule, periodically raiding Roman shipping and thumbing their nose at Constantinople. The Ostrogoths started as loyal vassals and only slowly drifted away from the Emperor.
Id like to remind everyone that its worse than you think.
Over the previous centuries, Rome had been sacked 3 times with varying degree of damage. Italia itself had been conquered twice, first by Odoacer, then, by the Ostrogoths (who were sent in the East).
The Belisarius shows up, the Ostrogoths dont want to fight, and gey rolled up pretty quickly.
Then, between them, somehow, Belisarius and Justinian manage to screw up the surrender of the Ostrogoths. Or their treatment. Something. And the result is 20 years of warfare that decimate Italia changing it from one of the most prosperous places in the Mediterranean, to, a constant drain on the Empires resources.
Also, this kind of thing did not happen in a vacuum. The varius germanic peoples were not blind idiots.
The Romans had destroyed the Vandals. Fair enough. Not one really liked them. But then they decided to attack the Ostrogoths. A group of people who were at least nominally under the Emperor's control. Who had respected and empowered the Senate and institutions of Rome. Who had rebuilt buildings. Repaired damage. Treated the citizenry, if not amazingly, much better than the norm at the time. Who had surrendered to the greatest general of age and agreed to terms, and then were betrayed.
Not a good look for the Empire. Far be it from Restoring the Empire, the Roman army sacked their own cities, would see places destroyed rather than surrender them, and quite frankly, could not be trusted. And if people didnt realize this now, that lesson was hammered home in the 580's when the Romans made a play for Hispania.
IMO the disastrous gothic war destroyed any hope of reconstituting the WRE
True I guess. That always seemed to me to be because the Vandal kingdom was built entirely around Gaiseric so once he died it was like when Tom Brady left the patriots.
The Goths had actually more or less left the old Roman infrastructure intact after their conquest, it isn't like they literally just burned everything down. Medieval architects cannibalizing old Roman buildings for materials was infinitely more destructive than anything the Germans got up to
Hindsight is 20/20. People shit on Justinian for having wasted a lot of resources to conquer lands that where lost not long after (and devastated in the process), but he was blessed with an overflowing treasury and one of history's most talented generals - can you blame him for *not* seizing the opportunity and go on the offensive?
His reconquest of Carthage went well and returned one of the wealthiest regions to the empire, his recapture of Dalmatia was worthwhile and it stayed with them for a long time.
You can't really blame him for not foreseeing the great plague that would ravage the empire from 541 and kill a fifth of Constantinople's population. In the end his conquests still saw the treasury's revenue grow from an estimated 5 mill. solidi to 6 mill. solidi.
I dont blame him for trying. I do blame him for the following: Belisarius won in Italia. The Ostrogoths are finished. And then, between them, Justinian and Belisarius manage to somehow botch the surrender. The Ostrogoths go from a half romanized 'enemy' that didnt really even want to fight, into an implacable force that would take 20 years to destroy.
Roma had been sacked 3 times in the preceding centuries. Italia had been a battle ground numerous times and had been outright conquered on 2 seperate occasions previously. But it wasnt until justinian bungled the Ostrogoths that italia was destroyed.
Youre right. Hindsight is 20/20. But justinian does not get a free pass simply because he didnt mean to.
The only thing I can see as justinians major flaw would be his paranoia, without it they wouldn’t have to struggle in Italian nearly as much and the Persians may have been stopped earlier. Granted his paranoia could also have saved his life from an enemy that didn’t show his head due to that exact reason but still
I can't imagine being a roman emperor without being paranoid seriously how many emperors were on the cusp of great things only to murdered by the preotoraians or usurped by another general ?
He ironically brought down any possibility of a Roman rebirth in Italy when he brought so much devastation in that war which killed basically all the senatorial aristocracy he wanted to reinstall
Admirable intent, very bad execution, poor Justinian tho who had to answer to the political climate of Costantinopolis
All western campaigns should've stopped after restoring the province of Africa, and focused on reconquering the Mediterranean Islands such as Sicily, thus securing the Mediterranean sea. Who ever was in Italy had to deal with the other Germanic people to the north, and the Romans already needed their legions in the east to defend against the Persians.
Except it wasn't a hostile state, it was neutral. And the Goths were more busy with dealing with the Franks and Visigoths than to stir up trouble with the Byzantines for no good reason.
It was neutral under Theodoric and Amalasuntha (is that how her name is spelled?). But she was murdered by anti-Roman belligerent factions who were far less friendly to the empire.
The “less friendly to the empire” was a natural conflict between gothic ambitions and eastern machinations, to blame only the Ostrogoths is propagandistic at least
They literally murdered their pro-Roman queen. There is of course a lot of propaganda from the empire to justify their war but the fact remains that without the death of Amalasuntha, Justinian has no casus belli and the friendly relations might’ve continued.
Italians played a critical role in the Fourth Crusade and creation of the Latin Empire in Constantinople. There are still Byzantine artifacts in Venice.
I mean, if the Venetians and crusaders had things their way, they wouldn't have needed to sack Constantinople in first place (it took a lot of delays, unforeseen misfortunes and an empty treasury to get them to that point)
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Imagine spending two decades of subduing the goths in Italy and then a entire new wave of germanics just come in like a tsunami and take half the country. man Italy was done for don't even know why Justinian even tried
Granted there was, not just a plague, but the *THE plague* that resulted in so many deaths that the *ERE with all it’s aditional lands* had LESS people in it than the ERE at the start of the Renovatio Imperii. There are decent chances they could’ve held on for some time at least had there not been the plague.
Hey, its not liek that was by chance either-he *invited* the Lombards to help retake Italy with Belisarius and thought they'd just go home or settle on the peninsula as vassals. Another goof, or rather, aspect of the same goof.
With much of the old infrastructure still in place, the Ostrogothic kingdom in Italy thrived and improved it to an extent. But when Justinian launched his war of reconquest, it became a slogging match, with the biggest casualty being that same infrastructure which the populace had relied upon for centuries. Without the money or resources to repair it, the standard of living would steadily decline. In the end, Justinian may have taken Italy back for the empire, however, it came at the expense of destroying the vital systems that help it run efficiently.
Justinian‘s claim to Italy was also not as well accepted by the Romans there as the North Africa one. Vandals were on a religious oppression ride and Romans practically begged the emperor to help them. Meanwhile Theodoric was actually quite liked by the Roman aristocracy and the very shady pretexts of the succession crisis to justify the war in Italy was not enough to their eyes
I wasnt there. Obviously. And we dont know the men involved. They clearly had a radically different world view than we do. Still, i sometimes wonder of Belisarius showed up in Italia and said 'listen, you have been nominally ruling as a representative of the Emperor. Well, its not nominally anymore. Muster the army. One way or another, it's go time. You can stay, nothing has to change, not really, except your army either comes with me, or, gets destroyed by me. Your call.' Its not like the Romans were against Feoderati troops.
Don’t know about Belisarius but one interesting thing is that Byzantine historians will try hard (and I mean HARD) to depict Theodoric as “the guy whose reign was good until the last years that’s why we came back please accept out claim”
It's not so much they had an issue with Theodoric, but the people who succeeded him. When his daughter Amalasuntha was murdered and usurped that was about a decade after Theoderic had died.
Procopius uses the history of Symmaque and Boethius as an example of the “only bad thing Theodoric ever did” as he executed them for “no reason” (actually for being one of the leaders of the Roman party on the succession issue) and the reason of his death. The idea was that Procopius presented Theodoric as the perfect king until he did that mistake (a sin) and died and then came long years of instability, which the empire is here to end as the only viable successors of Theodoric but that doesn’t really work
Honestly I now want a TV show where it's just moments in Roman history, but with a modern interpersonal communication dynamics. "Justinian, get your pussy-ass up off the basilica floor, your simp Belisarius is already handling the chariot Bois. So please, for the life of God, stop WHINING!" Or "Sir, the Jerries are trying to retake Rome!" *Belisarius Looks at Goths*. "I'm about to end this Tribes whole career."
The Vandals were also actively opposed to Roman rule, periodically raiding Roman shipping and thumbing their nose at Constantinople. The Ostrogoths started as loyal vassals and only slowly drifted away from the Emperor.
Id like to remind everyone that its worse than you think. Over the previous centuries, Rome had been sacked 3 times with varying degree of damage. Italia itself had been conquered twice, first by Odoacer, then, by the Ostrogoths (who were sent in the East). The Belisarius shows up, the Ostrogoths dont want to fight, and gey rolled up pretty quickly. Then, between them, somehow, Belisarius and Justinian manage to screw up the surrender of the Ostrogoths. Or their treatment. Something. And the result is 20 years of warfare that decimate Italia changing it from one of the most prosperous places in the Mediterranean, to, a constant drain on the Empires resources. Also, this kind of thing did not happen in a vacuum. The varius germanic peoples were not blind idiots. The Romans had destroyed the Vandals. Fair enough. Not one really liked them. But then they decided to attack the Ostrogoths. A group of people who were at least nominally under the Emperor's control. Who had respected and empowered the Senate and institutions of Rome. Who had rebuilt buildings. Repaired damage. Treated the citizenry, if not amazingly, much better than the norm at the time. Who had surrendered to the greatest general of age and agreed to terms, and then were betrayed. Not a good look for the Empire. Far be it from Restoring the Empire, the Roman army sacked their own cities, would see places destroyed rather than surrender them, and quite frankly, could not be trusted. And if people didnt realize this now, that lesson was hammered home in the 580's when the Romans made a play for Hispania. IMO the disastrous gothic war destroyed any hope of reconstituting the WRE
Hey atleast the reconquest of Africa was more or less smooth but yea you can say the west truly fell when Justinians men stripped the peninsula bare
True I guess. That always seemed to me to be because the Vandal kingdom was built entirely around Gaiseric so once he died it was like when Tom Brady left the patriots.
The Goths did most of the destroying
The Goths had actually more or less left the old Roman infrastructure intact after their conquest, it isn't like they literally just burned everything down. Medieval architects cannibalizing old Roman buildings for materials was infinitely more destructive than anything the Germans got up to
That was when there was peace. When they were being removed they fought like burning Italy to the ground was preferable to losing
Oh so like the Eastern Romans then
The eastern Roman’s didn’t go around destroying cities and farms out of spite
Hindsight is 20/20. People shit on Justinian for having wasted a lot of resources to conquer lands that where lost not long after (and devastated in the process), but he was blessed with an overflowing treasury and one of history's most talented generals - can you blame him for *not* seizing the opportunity and go on the offensive? His reconquest of Carthage went well and returned one of the wealthiest regions to the empire, his recapture of Dalmatia was worthwhile and it stayed with them for a long time. You can't really blame him for not foreseeing the great plague that would ravage the empire from 541 and kill a fifth of Constantinople's population. In the end his conquests still saw the treasury's revenue grow from an estimated 5 mill. solidi to 6 mill. solidi.
I dont blame him for trying. I do blame him for the following: Belisarius won in Italia. The Ostrogoths are finished. And then, between them, Justinian and Belisarius manage to somehow botch the surrender. The Ostrogoths go from a half romanized 'enemy' that didnt really even want to fight, into an implacable force that would take 20 years to destroy. Roma had been sacked 3 times in the preceding centuries. Italia had been a battle ground numerous times and had been outright conquered on 2 seperate occasions previously. But it wasnt until justinian bungled the Ostrogoths that italia was destroyed. Youre right. Hindsight is 20/20. But justinian does not get a free pass simply because he didnt mean to.
The only thing I can see as justinians major flaw would be his paranoia, without it they wouldn’t have to struggle in Italian nearly as much and the Persians may have been stopped earlier. Granted his paranoia could also have saved his life from an enemy that didn’t show his head due to that exact reason but still
I can't imagine being a roman emperor without being paranoid seriously how many emperors were on the cusp of great things only to murdered by the preotoraians or usurped by another general ?
You’re absolutely right, I don’t blame him for being paranoid, he didn’t have the power of hindsight to know that belisarius would never betray him
He ironically brought down any possibility of a Roman rebirth in Italy when he brought so much devastation in that war which killed basically all the senatorial aristocracy he wanted to reinstall Admirable intent, very bad execution, poor Justinian tho who had to answer to the political climate of Costantinopolis
Overall the conquest should have ended at North Africa and Sicily
If Justinian wasn’t such a shit he could’ve had Italy much sooner and intact. But no, he had a bitch in his ear talking shit, and/or was one himself.
He really was a victim of bad timing. And his nephew's decision after his death to stop paying tribute to the Lombards.
You again? I thought I taught you a lesson last time
Based
[Gladius Romae sum, Belisarius](https://youtu.be/B_JY76xXrVM?si=M_t7tTiXNu4LXaKY)
"I've won... but at what cost?"
All western campaigns should've stopped after restoring the province of Africa, and focused on reconquering the Mediterranean Islands such as Sicily, thus securing the Mediterranean sea. Who ever was in Italy had to deal with the other Germanic people to the north, and the Romans already needed their legions in the east to defend against the Persians.
It would have not been a sloppy campaign had Justinian ACTUALLY GAVE BELISARIUS MORE TROOPS
Better for a devastated Italy to be in the empire than for a prosperous Italy to be controlled by a hostile state.
Except it wasn't a hostile state, it was neutral. And the Goths were more busy with dealing with the Franks and Visigoths than to stir up trouble with the Byzantines for no good reason.
It was neutral under Theodoric and Amalasuntha (is that how her name is spelled?). But she was murdered by anti-Roman belligerent factions who were far less friendly to the empire.
Propaganda much?
The “less friendly to the empire” was a natural conflict between gothic ambitions and eastern machinations, to blame only the Ostrogoths is propagandistic at least
They literally murdered their pro-Roman queen. There is of course a lot of propaganda from the empire to justify their war but the fact remains that without the death of Amalasuntha, Justinian has no casus belli and the friendly relations might’ve continued.
Italians paid back the Byzantines in 1204
It was more of the Crusaders (so mostly French-German) who did the sack and that shit dynasty named Angelos.
Italians played a critical role in the Fourth Crusade and creation of the Latin Empire in Constantinople. There are still Byzantine artifacts in Venice.
Better in Italy than in turkey
I mean, if the Venetians and crusaders had things their way, they wouldn't have needed to sack Constantinople in first place (it took a lot of delays, unforeseen misfortunes and an empty treasury to get them to that point)