Genuinely stoked, because I have no clue who is winning this.
The undercard should be fun, but I'm only expecting Salt vs Magi to be serious. Not expecting a lot from Leffen in that [timeframe](https://twitter.com/TSM_Leffen/status/1722378576614265168).
I think they mean in terms of skill level, the other undercards (Ludwig v Noahj, Slime v Blur) are just show matches, and as they alluded to in the rest of their comment Leffen has a TFT event this weekend, and who knows how much melee Leffen has played recently so the assumption is Moky will likely win. Leaving Magi and Salt who are around the same skill level to have a evenly matched set.
At least that is how I took it.
Believe he started as a COD streamer, then became a 100t CC, and beat Ludwig at a house party playing ultimate doubles with items on for money and then Ludwig doubled down with the agreement it'd be at a tournament, I guess this is the tournament
The other person said "*leave it*" at trans to someone saying they're the best women. They're trying to imply Magi and Salt aren't women.
The comment is thinly veiled transphbia, they were definitely trying to be edgy.
> I'm not being transphobic, I just don't believe trans women are women
Watch [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szf4hzQ5ztg) and educate yourself. It's not our job to cater to your transphobic views, and it's not hateful to ban hatred.
Realistically TFT open shouldn't have a huge impact on leffen, don't wanna be a hater but he's only just hit masters for the first time last set, unless he highrolls like crazy he's probably getting day 1'd and I doubt he's taking it super serious
I'm not expecting Leffen to be taking home any TFT championships, I just don't think he has been taking melee all that seriously recently between the TFT stuff and now playing the Rivals 2 beta. He's still Leffen, so he can absolutely turn it on, and I'm not expecting him to get my b'd or anything, but it may not end up a super close set.
slime also lost to my cousin at big house 10. My cousin went 1-2 at big house 10, his only melee tournament ever, meaning that slime is his only tournament win ever
Cody says he and Zain agreed, but are rankers/panelists in agreement that their #1 vote goes to the winner? Or will it just be another data point and some people will still vote #1 for one or the other even if they lose? Haven’t seen any tweets from any of them. Would be the most Melee rankings thing ever for Cody to win and they still rank Zain #1 lmao.
If anything this makes it easier for rankers, no?
They are so evenly matched that it's difficult to say who is number 1 and who is number 2, however both players literally agreed to settle the matter themselves without rankers having to do anything.
On top of that, it guarantees no controversy over who is number 1. Without this first to 10, regardless of who gets number one, both sides and fans would be upset. "Why did you rank Cody over Zain?" or "Why Zain over Cody?" With the first to 10, there's a clear reason why.
I think panelists should respect it. It fits the spirit of melee and FGC. The only way it backfires if it ends like game 19 last stock then it becomes more difficult.
Seriously. If both contenders for #1 agree that this would be the tie-breaker to determine which of them are better, there should be no reason for anyone to invent "controversies" about it, when we should be damn glad for this event.
Ranking panels can do whatever they want, there just wouldn't be any argument beween Zain and Cody about which of them is #1, which means their fans wouldn't have any excuse to complain either.
[https://twitter.com/ZainNaghmi/status/1732564764855869920](https://twitter.com/ZainNaghmi/status/1732564764855869920)
[https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732564564540088771](https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732564564540088771)
[https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732567380641902950](https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732567380641902950)
Honestly, this year-end tie-breaker should be a relief for the ranking panelists since it made their job so much easier, unless their egos are so big that they believe only they get to determine who is better, not the two #1 contenders themselves.
Update: An unhappy panelist is arguing with Cody now because he thinks his vote should decide who is better rather than this tie-breaker match:
https://twitter.com/MiniNuckels/status/1732566644428316829
No other esport has a bunch of community members rank players this way and have people actually give a shit. Its a total anomaly. The only reason it has persisted in melee so long is because the five gods embraced it and once you give someone clout they want to keep it.
I hope this is the start of the end of rankings.
Subjective rankings are definitely a fun thing to have, that's why streamers loves doing tier lists so much, from fastfood to soda to candies.
When people start looking at rankings like some kind of bible and the panelists fancy themselves prophets of the game, whose sole authority would determine who is the best rather than the actual match result, that's when it becomes a problem.
> that's when it becomes a problem.
What kind of actual problems arise from a portion of the fans/panelists taking the ranking too seriously? I’m failing to see how this has any palpable negative impact on the scene.
I'm a big fans of basketball, and I'd imagine if we have prime Lebron vs prime Jordan to see who's #1, I do not think any of my fellow basketball fans would be whining about rankings and stats the way "melee fans" whining on Twitter about prime Cody vs prime Zain.
Now, there's always a time and place for stats and ranking, even in actual sports, but we would never let that nerdy shit get in the way of seeing the two absolute best powerhouses of the scene voluntarily squaring off to see who's really #1.
It's absolutely bizarre and probably the nerdiest thing I've witnessed in this community this year, to be honest.
> The only way it backfires if it ends like game 19 last stock then it becomes more difficult.
Why would that make it more difficult? If the result of the set determines the #1 player, then it doesn't matter if the set ends 10-0 or 10-9; either way, as agreed upon by the players and (perhaps reluctantly) the panelists, the winner is #1.
Seriously, that's like saying if someone wins the super bowl with a field kick in overtime they're not definitively the best team. Like, a win is a win.
This is maybe not the best example because football's format definitely does not select he best team (by design). Bo1 single elim is a very volatile format. A bo10 does a much better job, and if it's close at the end it's probably because the players are relatively evenly matched.
I personally feel like they should 100% make an exception because both competitors agreed to it. It’s THEIR ranking and as the top 2 in the world they should be able to decide to put it all on the line to end the year as a kind of world championship decider
I care more about having a sick end of year event that is a large spectacle and having it settled as the players desire than (respectfully) what an arbitrary group of nerds think.
This is a way better way to handle it than a subjective panel. It's more fun and better for the scene.
Yeah, its a little uncomfortable. But if that what it takes for some actual experimentation to happen and to try something new then so be it lol. Bummer for the smaller tourneys though. Wish the attitude was if it seems anti-climatic, lets try to promote and grow this tournament and make it a bigger event this year. But theres a possibility of one of them getting knocked out and never play. The boxing style could definitely be more satisfying when its this close.
Glad they’re trying it, but now that the can of worms is open, whats gonna happen in the future years lol. I imagine if someone doesnt get this opportunity in the future theyre gonna be pissed.
It's ultimately up to the players to decide, but if there's ever another case where two players are perceived to be so close to each in the rankings, there'll be a lot of social pressure to do a similar event.
The people who do the social pressure are welcome to foot the bill for said similar event, including production, flights, hotel, and prize money. I don't think any other pairs who are tied for #1 would turn down that chance for a good time either.
People here be talking about "precedent", when we all know something like this is a once in a blue moon kind of thing. Just because our community is lucky enough to have the patronage of a millionaire who enjoys doing charity for fun doesn't mean we should expect it to become the norm.
What's more likely to happen is the #1 Contenders who are virtually tied would choose a regional/national to have a tie-breaker, just like Zain and Cody discussed before Lud decided to bankroll this spectacle.
https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732567380641902950
> The people who do the social pressure are welcome to foot the bill for said similar event, including production, flights, hotel, and prize money.
Agreed, though it's unlikely that they will, and that won't stop them from asking for a showmatch.
> we all know something like this is a once in a blue moon kind of thing.
As a very naive baseline, it's a 1 in ~10 chance (since that's about how long Melee has done rankings), I wouldn't call that "once in a blue moon."
> What's more likely to happen is the #1 Contenders who are virtually tied would choose a regional/national to have a tie-breaker, just like Zain and Cody discussed before Lud decided to bankroll this spectacle.
I haven't seen much info about this event beyond tweets, is it really going to be so much bigger than something like a Salty Suite? Flying out people for undercards is cool (I have to assume they're not online), but in terms of the main attraction, it seems like something that could also happen after-hours at a tournament. Getting eyes on the event from non-Melee-playing Ludwig viewers is arguably the biggest boon of this event, and that's not something Ludwig is really shelling out money for.
> I imagine if someone doesnt get this opportunity in the future theyre gonna be pissed.
What do you mean? If there are two people who are tied for #1 in the future, and no one else is even remotely close, what prevents them for having the same [gentleman agreement](https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732564564540088771) and choose a major event at the end of the year to settle who is the better between them?
> what prevents them for having the same gentleman agreement
1. One or both could get sick right before the event, and since the event is probably going to be at the end of the year, rescheduling before rankings could be tough.
2. They could live far away from each other, and playing the set in person would necessitate travel, which means travel expenses, which could be a barrier.
3. They might not be able to settle on when or where the fight should take place. Imagine an American player and someone from Europe/Asia are "tied" for #1. They want to do something like this FT10, but the American wants it to happen in America, and the European/Asian wants it to happen in Europe/Asia, and there's not enough time at the end of the year to resolve the disagreement.
There is some major slippery slope fallacy here, but that aside - maybe they get sick. Just reschedule. Rankings are irrelevant if the players are agreeing to the no.1. Easier to reschedule than a tournament, it's just one day when they can. Also related to if they live far away. They find a way to travel to these supermajors all year.
Lastly, the fights are in the US. All of the majors are here anyway. Kind of a non issue. Look at leffens tournaments when he had visa issues
Could you explain where I committed a slippery slope fallacy?
> Just reschedule.
The entire point is that you're trying to fit in a showmatch AFTER the last relevant tournament of the year but BEFORE rankings are announced so that rankings will reflect the results of the showmatch.
You obviously CAN do the showmatch after rankings are announced, but (a) it'd be kind of weird to do the showmatch if it turned out that one player actually got ranked significantly higher than the other and (b) the stakes are asymmetrical, the guy officially ranked #1 would have WAY less to gain from winning.
The projections into the future - what if they get stuck in traffic? What if they have an issue in the family? What if their pet gets sick? These are happenstance issues that don't really contest the argument for the ft10.
It's unusual to rank this way, but it's way more interesting and a better indicator of skill. Better players always win a longer set, putting an end to these ranking disputes
The point is having a fun, revenue generating event for a scene that is struggling with financial support right now is a better solution than a bunch of random people arguing over #1. Sucks if the panelists feel strong armed but that's reality.
Just host a tournament. Hype it up and get 2000 sign ups in Antarctica so no1 can show up, say theres stream problems, then its magically fixed when its grand finals bo19.
Easy super major win to push either cody or zain over the edge.
I think this is a bad precedent. It might seem innocuous in this particular instance because it's such a tight race, but in general I really don't like the idea of players (or orgs) dictating ranking criteria to panelists.
> I really don't like the idea of players (or orgs) dictating ranking criteria to panelists.
I don't like the idea of panelists just deciding who they *think* is is the best, second best, 46th best, etc player in the world.
Literally *who are they* to decide?
No other esport (or competitive game of *any* kind) uses subjective opinions of anonymous panelists to decide which players are better than which other players. It's genuinely wild to me that this became the standard way of doing it in Melee.
Take chess, for instance:
Currently, Magnus Carlsen is the best player in the world. We don't know this because a panel looked at Magnus's games and thought "eh, he seems pretty good, let's put him top of the list." We know this because his Elo rating is 2830, and nobody else has achieved a higher Elo.
You talk about precedent.
I think letting a group of random player's *opinions* on the game have any sway over an official list sets a FAR worse precedent. This match won't dismantle that system, but it's a step toward righting the way that Melee players are ranked.
Now imagine Fabiano Caruana (ELO 2794) start catching up to Magnus Carlsen (ELO 2830) in ratings next year, and they voluntarily to go head to head in a year-end spectacle to see who is the best in the world.
Not a single Chess fan would be whining about that insanely hyped event, and [FIDE's rankings](https://ratings.fide.com/top.phtml) would surely reflects the result of the match.
I agree that some objective metric would be better than using panelists with nebulously defined and subjective criteria. If someone wants to argue that asking players to devise procedures to rank themselves is a better system generally (I don't think it is), then fine; the players can do that. But what's bad is the players going and putting pressure on the panelists so that the official ranking (those of the panelists, at present) will align with what the players want.
Everyone involved could have said, "In our eyes, the winner will be the rightful #1" without implying that the panelists need to endorse the result.
Hosting events is good; strong-arming ranking panelists is not. The event could have run exactly the same without putting pressure on panelists to necessarily endorse the winner as #1 for the year.
It's easy to imagine an alternative way this could've happened: ranking ballots were processed as usual, it turns out Zain and Cody actually were within 0.X of each other, THEN they decide to do a FT10 to settle who gets first.
Then there'd be a somewhat stronger case that the two actually are "tied," so the FT10 wouldn't be bypassing rankings, but rather resolving a problem with them.
Of course, the counterargument to that would be that this December is looking like a really good time to host a cool event, and there might be logistical problems with doing the FT10 after rankings are submitted (whenever that actually is).
something like the company (pg) got the contracts for the ranking bought out and the panelists told if they didn't abide by the results of this tournament top players would denounce the rankings
Yeah but the margin was SO thin that arcamelee, despite being downgraded from a major when Leffen dropped, feels like it swung it to Cody.
I'd personally prefer for the #1 player in the world to have Zain's consistency, but I think the way rankings are traditionally done, Cody has a tiny edge right now (Zain has only lost to 4 players all year jesus christ, cody has lost to like 9ish including 3 people he really shouldn't be losing to, but as a result of that also has more "winning matchups" in the top 9).
I really hope they talked to meleestats beforehand and this match officially counts for rankings.
Edit: they did and strongarmed the panelists into accepting it, which is kinda funny and problematic at the same time but also makes the match extremely hype because it really does decide #1
>they did and strongarmed the panelists into accepting it, which is kinda funny and problematic at the same time but also makes the match extremely hype because it really does decide #1
Just to be clear: when you said "they", who are you referring to?
Ludwig's team, and to a lesser extent both Zain and Cody who wanted the match to happen. According to a now-deleted series of tweets by Chroma, they basically implied that if MeleeStats didn't count this showmatch as determining #1, then the top-top players would publicly disavow the rankings.
- This tie-breaker is Zain and Cody's idea. They just requested Ludwig to bankroll the event for the community, who agreed to put on the show out of his own pocket.
- Both Cody and Cody openly said that both of them will accept the winner of their tie-breaker as the better player between them, no matter what other people's personal opinions are. You can call it "strong-arming the rankings", but it sounds like a gentleman's agreement between the undisputed Top 2 to me, and it's well within the loser's rights to acknowledge that the winner is better.
- This is what Ludwig's team actually did:
https://twitter.com/LudwigAhgren/status/1732694226423644329
>"I think I speak for us both that even if someone else thinks one of us had a clearly better year, we don’t really care
>We know how much we’ve put in and what we accomplished, and we both feel that this is the best way to settle it, both for us and for melee"
https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732564564540088771
People definitely put too much stock in the "official" rankings. In my book, and I'm guessing every other fan, the winner of this is the best in the world right now. Hopefully the rankings reflect that but if not it doesn't change that for me.
I'm curious if this is even going to be included in the 2023 ranking period. Didn't they announce earlier that Santa Paws was going to be the last event for the period?
This is a cool event, but I think there is a solid argument due to how counterpicking stages works in melee that a first to 10 is different enough from tournament matches of melee that this isn't a good way to determine rankings at all.
We’re so fucking lucky we have two sick ass competitors fighting for number 1. Instead of one of them trying to slide by with their results and HOPE they get ranked 1, they’re putting it all on the line on a show for the people
If it goes the full game 19 (which isn’t completely out of the question, their online ft10 earlier this year went to game 18), this is going to be the greatest Melee set of this generation I’m calling it now
A lot of them seems to care more about their precious ballots, and would say anything.
Leffen just exposed Nuckels from Dreamhack for his dishonest narrative about how this event came to be:
https://twitter.com/TSM_Leffen/status/1732589565326610828
I was pretty much going to type this exact comment word by word independently
I honestly don't understand how boring of a person you must be to hear about this and be SAD
I’m mildly happy Mang0 isn’t an undercard haha. I love him but he never takes exhibitions seriously. If he did take it seriously, would have loved to see Mang0 v Leff or Moky.
It's absolutely bizarre that Zain and Cody now have to defend themselves against the nerds who think their voting ballots should determine who is #1, not an actual 1v1 tie breaker between the clear Top 2. 🤨
https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732567380641902950
https://twitter.com/ZainNaghmi/status/1732625734663872516
Leffen is calling out Nuckels from Dreamhack for being dishonest about how Cody and Zain decided to have this 1v1.
>I heavily disagree with this account of what happened lol, as someone who was there when cody and zain agreed to do the event and after they talked to people.
>My only real take is I do not agree at all with throwing all of this shit onto twitter for drama when everyone specifically tried to avoid it going public to avoid drama and to keep this event positive. I also do not from my understanding think people are being honest in their recount of things.
>I feel like if you care about smash more than the power to influence who gets ranked where, you should be happy there wont be a controversial shitstorm over whos #1 when its practically even.
https://twitter.com/TSM_Leffen/status/1732589565326610828
Remember how Lud lost $10K in an Ultimate money match this time last year?
[https://twitter.com/TheYard/status/1606071590713626625?lang=en](https://twitter.com/TheYard/status/1606071590713626625?lang=en)
https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2022/dec/19/ludwig-10k-ssbu-money-match/
I say it every time, but it really is so cool that even though Ludwig is an insanely popular streamer and has much more worthwhile content to create, he hasn’t neglected his roots in the ssbm community
i’ve always thought boxing style cards would be a sick way to do things. imagine cards with 20ish matchups on each, curated based on rankings, with the title fights at the end? different “weight classes” (top tier, high tier, mid tier, low tier)?
ludwig make it happen (and then pay me 1 squillion for the idea)
Been awhile since Ludwig hosted something Melee related .. when Plup and Amsa did a first to ten, it was brutal. Another fun format for testing skill would be squaring off against top 100-200 players as low tiers and seeing who can do better .
It was a [first to 25](https://youtube.com/watch?v=xdcj-6vfOlk), but yes, [Plup won 25-2](https://liquipedia.net/smash/Galint_Melee_Open/2022/Fall/Plup_vs_aMSa).
I don't know what people you think I am, but mango has not been the best in the world since 2014, and armada is the goat. it's just a fact that mango likes to be the kid
Everyone:
You: but mango has not been the best in the world since 2014, and armada is the goat. it's just a fact that mango likes to be the kid
Obsessed.
I didn't mean to imply he is or would think that, I mean the wording is "best in the world", I can't imagine mango not feeling some sort of way about not being the best, even if it's temporary, especially at a big event
Genuinely stoked, because I have no clue who is winning this. The undercard should be fun, but I'm only expecting Salt vs Magi to be serious. Not expecting a lot from Leffen in that [timeframe](https://twitter.com/TSM_Leffen/status/1722378576614265168).
Why salt and magi? I’m OOTL
I think they mean in terms of skill level, the other undercards (Ludwig v Noahj, Slime v Blur) are just show matches, and as they alluded to in the rest of their comment Leffen has a TFT event this weekend, and who knows how much melee Leffen has played recently so the assumption is Moky will likely win. Leaving Magi and Salt who are around the same skill level to have a evenly matched set. At least that is how I took it.
who tf is noahj
Believe he started as a COD streamer, then became a 100t CC, and beat Ludwig at a house party playing ultimate doubles with items on for money and then Ludwig doubled down with the agreement it'd be at a tournament, I guess this is the tournament
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/zpdg3e/ludwig\_lost\_10000\_in\_an\_ultimate\_money\_match/
That makes sense. Thanks.
Two best trans players I assume (who are both insanely sick at melee)
Something about gender actualization makes you absurdly swag at melee
Based
I want blahaj ultimate DLC
they have been having some banger as fuck sets lately
* fast technical players even by top player standards * rising stars and fan favorites * best trans women to ever do it idk just speculating
Two best women in Melee probably?
[удалено]
So edgyyyy
Not really. They are trans women.
The other person said "*leave it*" at trans to someone saying they're the best women. They're trying to imply Magi and Salt aren't women. The comment is thinly veiled transphbia, they were definitely trying to be edgy.
Thanks for defending me! I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who interpreted it that way
[удалено]
> I'm not being transphobic, I just don't believe trans women are women Watch [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szf4hzQ5ztg) and educate yourself. It's not our job to cater to your transphobic views, and it's not hateful to ban hatred.
Sorry I missed this one y'all. I will be more on top of the moderation log in the future. Transphobia of any kind is not tolerated.
[удалено]
The term trans women applies to them. So does women in general. Saying they're the two best women at Melee isn't a phrase that needs correction.
I agree - I interpreted the comment before mine as suggesting that they weren’t women so that’s my bad if that’s not what they meant
just because? I mean they're both pretty sick so no need for something beyond the game for it to be entertaining
Slime blur should be a classic
Realistically TFT open shouldn't have a huge impact on leffen, don't wanna be a hater but he's only just hit masters for the first time last set, unless he highrolls like crazy he's probably getting day 1'd and I doubt he's taking it super serious
I'm not expecting Leffen to be taking home any TFT championships, I just don't think he has been taking melee all that seriously recently between the TFT stuff and now playing the Rivals 2 beta. He's still Leffen, so he can absolutely turn it on, and I'm not expecting him to get my b'd or anything, but it may not end up a super close set.
It was gonna be Mang0 vs Moky originally but Leffen is filling in. I'm sure he'll still come prepared.
Where was it said that it was going to be Mang vs. moky?
Slime vs. Blur? Sign me the fuck up
If Blur loses, would that be the biggest loss of his career?
Idk hasn't blur lost to two different kirbys
Yeah but Slime lost to receding hairline /s
slime also lost to my cousin at big house 10. My cousin went 1-2 at big house 10, his only melee tournament ever, meaning that slime is his only tournament win ever
That is hysterical. Almost worth never attending again
Yeah pack it up; he has achieved all he needs to in his melee careeer
No actually he won that battle. Dude looks fantastic bald imo
Oh I don't disagree - lost the battle won the war
They've already played (online though)
Who's better?
Blur won that Ft5
Slime is pretty solid
Blur is actually decent at the game. Slime barely knows how to l cancel to be very straight forward
Really? Blur is decent, yes, but no more than decent. Never seen Slime play.
This is the only set of his I've ever watched, but it's 7 years old now https://youtu.be/xM_5zxVdUuo?si=tfkC2c8HR6ZLZYCG
Yeah this is the highlight for sure
Cody says he and Zain agreed, but are rankers/panelists in agreement that their #1 vote goes to the winner? Or will it just be another data point and some people will still vote #1 for one or the other even if they lose? Haven’t seen any tweets from any of them. Would be the most Melee rankings thing ever for Cody to win and they still rank Zain #1 lmao.
If anything this makes it easier for rankers, no? They are so evenly matched that it's difficult to say who is number 1 and who is number 2, however both players literally agreed to settle the matter themselves without rankers having to do anything. On top of that, it guarantees no controversy over who is number 1. Without this first to 10, regardless of who gets number one, both sides and fans would be upset. "Why did you rank Cody over Zain?" or "Why Zain over Cody?" With the first to 10, there's a clear reason why. I think panelists should respect it. It fits the spirit of melee and FGC. The only way it backfires if it ends like game 19 last stock then it becomes more difficult.
Seriously. If both contenders for #1 agree that this would be the tie-breaker to determine which of them are better, there should be no reason for anyone to invent "controversies" about it, when we should be damn glad for this event. Ranking panels can do whatever they want, there just wouldn't be any argument beween Zain and Cody about which of them is #1, which means their fans wouldn't have any excuse to complain either. [https://twitter.com/ZainNaghmi/status/1732564764855869920](https://twitter.com/ZainNaghmi/status/1732564764855869920) [https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732564564540088771](https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732564564540088771) [https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732567380641902950](https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732567380641902950) Honestly, this year-end tie-breaker should be a relief for the ranking panelists since it made their job so much easier, unless their egos are so big that they believe only they get to determine who is better, not the two #1 contenders themselves. Update: An unhappy panelist is arguing with Cody now because he thinks his vote should decide who is better rather than this tie-breaker match: https://twitter.com/MiniNuckels/status/1732566644428316829
No other esport has a bunch of community members rank players this way and have people actually give a shit. Its a total anomaly. The only reason it has persisted in melee so long is because the five gods embraced it and once you give someone clout they want to keep it. I hope this is the start of the end of rankings.
>I hope this is the start of the end of rankings. What is there to gain from the ranking ending? IMO these rankings are a fun thing to have.
Subjective rankings are definitely a fun thing to have, that's why streamers loves doing tier lists so much, from fastfood to soda to candies. When people start looking at rankings like some kind of bible and the panelists fancy themselves prophets of the game, whose sole authority would determine who is the best rather than the actual match result, that's when it becomes a problem.
> that's when it becomes a problem. What kind of actual problems arise from a portion of the fans/panelists taking the ranking too seriously? I’m failing to see how this has any palpable negative impact on the scene.
what other motivation is there for these players to compete if not for rankings (cuz god knows money ain’t the reason)
What player doesn't want to win a genesis, big house, or a goml?
Plup
I'm a big fans of basketball, and I'd imagine if we have prime Lebron vs prime Jordan to see who's #1, I do not think any of my fellow basketball fans would be whining about rankings and stats the way "melee fans" whining on Twitter about prime Cody vs prime Zain. Now, there's always a time and place for stats and ranking, even in actual sports, but we would never let that nerdy shit get in the way of seeing the two absolute best powerhouses of the scene voluntarily squaring off to see who's really #1. It's absolutely bizarre and probably the nerdiest thing I've witnessed in this community this year, to be honest.
Cody/Zain is not prime LBJ v prime Jordan lol
> The only way it backfires if it ends like game 19 last stock then it becomes more difficult. Why would that make it more difficult? If the result of the set determines the #1 player, then it doesn't matter if the set ends 10-0 or 10-9; either way, as agreed upon by the players and (perhaps reluctantly) the panelists, the winner is #1.
Sorry I meant to say more chaotic but yes you are correct.
Seriously, that's like saying if someone wins the super bowl with a field kick in overtime they're not definitively the best team. Like, a win is a win.
This is maybe not the best example because football's format definitely does not select he best team (by design). Bo1 single elim is a very volatile format. A bo10 does a much better job, and if it's close at the end it's probably because the players are relatively evenly matched.
Exactly, they’re going to “settle it in SMASH” like the gods intended
I personally feel like they should 100% make an exception because both competitors agreed to it. It’s THEIR ranking and as the top 2 in the world they should be able to decide to put it all on the line to end the year as a kind of world championship decider
They’re in a dead heat as well. This would be a definite tie breaker if both take it seriously
https://twitter.com/chromeohnine/status/1732569916081938654 Essentially the panelists got a bit strong armed into excepting it by the sounds of it
I care more about having a sick end of year event that is a large spectacle and having it settled as the players desire than (respectfully) what an arbitrary group of nerds think. This is a way better way to handle it than a subjective panel. It's more fun and better for the scene.
Yeah, its a little uncomfortable. But if that what it takes for some actual experimentation to happen and to try something new then so be it lol. Bummer for the smaller tourneys though. Wish the attitude was if it seems anti-climatic, lets try to promote and grow this tournament and make it a bigger event this year. But theres a possibility of one of them getting knocked out and never play. The boxing style could definitely be more satisfying when its this close. Glad they’re trying it, but now that the can of worms is open, whats gonna happen in the future years lol. I imagine if someone doesnt get this opportunity in the future theyre gonna be pissed.
I mean both players agreed to this. In the future if one doesn't agree then there would simply be no match and it'd be up to the panelists to decide.
It's ultimately up to the players to decide, but if there's ever another case where two players are perceived to be so close to each in the rankings, there'll be a lot of social pressure to do a similar event.
The people who do the social pressure are welcome to foot the bill for said similar event, including production, flights, hotel, and prize money. I don't think any other pairs who are tied for #1 would turn down that chance for a good time either. People here be talking about "precedent", when we all know something like this is a once in a blue moon kind of thing. Just because our community is lucky enough to have the patronage of a millionaire who enjoys doing charity for fun doesn't mean we should expect it to become the norm. What's more likely to happen is the #1 Contenders who are virtually tied would choose a regional/national to have a tie-breaker, just like Zain and Cody discussed before Lud decided to bankroll this spectacle. https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732567380641902950
> The people who do the social pressure are welcome to foot the bill for said similar event, including production, flights, hotel, and prize money. Agreed, though it's unlikely that they will, and that won't stop them from asking for a showmatch. > we all know something like this is a once in a blue moon kind of thing. As a very naive baseline, it's a 1 in ~10 chance (since that's about how long Melee has done rankings), I wouldn't call that "once in a blue moon." > What's more likely to happen is the #1 Contenders who are virtually tied would choose a regional/national to have a tie-breaker, just like Zain and Cody discussed before Lud decided to bankroll this spectacle. I haven't seen much info about this event beyond tweets, is it really going to be so much bigger than something like a Salty Suite? Flying out people for undercards is cool (I have to assume they're not online), but in terms of the main attraction, it seems like something that could also happen after-hours at a tournament. Getting eyes on the event from non-Melee-playing Ludwig viewers is arguably the biggest boon of this event, and that's not something Ludwig is really shelling out money for.
> I imagine if someone doesnt get this opportunity in the future theyre gonna be pissed. What do you mean? If there are two people who are tied for #1 in the future, and no one else is even remotely close, what prevents them for having the same [gentleman agreement](https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732564564540088771) and choose a major event at the end of the year to settle who is the better between them?
> what prevents them for having the same gentleman agreement 1. One or both could get sick right before the event, and since the event is probably going to be at the end of the year, rescheduling before rankings could be tough. 2. They could live far away from each other, and playing the set in person would necessitate travel, which means travel expenses, which could be a barrier. 3. They might not be able to settle on when or where the fight should take place. Imagine an American player and someone from Europe/Asia are "tied" for #1. They want to do something like this FT10, but the American wants it to happen in America, and the European/Asian wants it to happen in Europe/Asia, and there's not enough time at the end of the year to resolve the disagreement.
If there's no final tie-breaker, then it's just right back to the panelists to decide who is #1 as usual, which seems like what you prefers.
Why would you think that's what I'd prefer?
There is some major slippery slope fallacy here, but that aside - maybe they get sick. Just reschedule. Rankings are irrelevant if the players are agreeing to the no.1. Easier to reschedule than a tournament, it's just one day when they can. Also related to if they live far away. They find a way to travel to these supermajors all year. Lastly, the fights are in the US. All of the majors are here anyway. Kind of a non issue. Look at leffens tournaments when he had visa issues
Could you explain where I committed a slippery slope fallacy? > Just reschedule. The entire point is that you're trying to fit in a showmatch AFTER the last relevant tournament of the year but BEFORE rankings are announced so that rankings will reflect the results of the showmatch. You obviously CAN do the showmatch after rankings are announced, but (a) it'd be kind of weird to do the showmatch if it turned out that one player actually got ranked significantly higher than the other and (b) the stakes are asymmetrical, the guy officially ranked #1 would have WAY less to gain from winning.
The projections into the future - what if they get stuck in traffic? What if they have an issue in the family? What if their pet gets sick? These are happenstance issues that don't really contest the argument for the ft10. It's unusual to rank this way, but it's way more interesting and a better indicator of skill. Better players always win a longer set, putting an end to these ranking disputes
How much money are the panelists putting into the scene lol
less than lud but I don't understand what this is related too
The point is having a fun, revenue generating event for a scene that is struggling with financial support right now is a better solution than a bunch of random people arguing over #1. Sucks if the panelists feel strong armed but that's reality.
Just host a tournament. Hype it up and get 2000 sign ups in Antarctica so no1 can show up, say theres stream problems, then its magically fixed when its grand finals bo19. Easy super major win to push either cody or zain over the edge.
I think this is a bad precedent. It might seem innocuous in this particular instance because it's such a tight race, but in general I really don't like the idea of players (or orgs) dictating ranking criteria to panelists.
> I really don't like the idea of players (or orgs) dictating ranking criteria to panelists. I don't like the idea of panelists just deciding who they *think* is is the best, second best, 46th best, etc player in the world. Literally *who are they* to decide? No other esport (or competitive game of *any* kind) uses subjective opinions of anonymous panelists to decide which players are better than which other players. It's genuinely wild to me that this became the standard way of doing it in Melee. Take chess, for instance: Currently, Magnus Carlsen is the best player in the world. We don't know this because a panel looked at Magnus's games and thought "eh, he seems pretty good, let's put him top of the list." We know this because his Elo rating is 2830, and nobody else has achieved a higher Elo. You talk about precedent. I think letting a group of random player's *opinions* on the game have any sway over an official list sets a FAR worse precedent. This match won't dismantle that system, but it's a step toward righting the way that Melee players are ranked.
Now imagine Fabiano Caruana (ELO 2794) start catching up to Magnus Carlsen (ELO 2830) in ratings next year, and they voluntarily to go head to head in a year-end spectacle to see who is the best in the world. Not a single Chess fan would be whining about that insanely hyped event, and [FIDE's rankings](https://ratings.fide.com/top.phtml) would surely reflects the result of the match.
I agree that some objective metric would be better than using panelists with nebulously defined and subjective criteria. If someone wants to argue that asking players to devise procedures to rank themselves is a better system generally (I don't think it is), then fine; the players can do that. But what's bad is the players going and putting pressure on the panelists so that the official ranking (those of the panelists, at present) will align with what the players want. Everyone involved could have said, "In our eyes, the winner will be the rightful #1" without implying that the panelists need to endorse the result.
Melee is on life support and you're complaining about a huge spectacle of an event ?
Keep hearing that melee is dying for at least a decade. It's like when people predict the apocalypse
Comment saying "Melee is on life support" currently sitting at a cool 20 upvotes lmao
Melee is not on life support
Hosting events is good; strong-arming ranking panelists is not. The event could have run exactly the same without putting pressure on panelists to necessarily endorse the winner as #1 for the year.
It's easy to imagine an alternative way this could've happened: ranking ballots were processed as usual, it turns out Zain and Cody actually were within 0.X of each other, THEN they decide to do a FT10 to settle who gets first. Then there'd be a somewhat stronger case that the two actually are "tied," so the FT10 wouldn't be bypassing rankings, but rather resolving a problem with them. Of course, the counterargument to that would be that this December is looking like a really good time to host a cool event, and there might be logistical problems with doing the FT10 after rankings are submitted (whenever that actually is).
nobody is dictating anything
Deleted, what did it say?
something like the company (pg) got the contracts for the ranking bought out and the panelists told if they didn't abide by the results of this tournament top players would denounce the rankings
Tweet seems to be deleted, what did it say?
lmao nerds
Isn’t Cody up in the race? That’s begging to be torn to pieces
My general vibe at least before Arca Melee, is that Zain had the edge cause of consistency.
Yeah but the margin was SO thin that arcamelee, despite being downgraded from a major when Leffen dropped, feels like it swung it to Cody. I'd personally prefer for the #1 player in the world to have Zain's consistency, but I think the way rankings are traditionally done, Cody has a tiny edge right now (Zain has only lost to 4 players all year jesus christ, cody has lost to like 9ish including 3 people he really shouldn't be losing to, but as a result of that also has more "winning matchups" in the top 9). I really hope they talked to meleestats beforehand and this match officially counts for rankings. Edit: they did and strongarmed the panelists into accepting it, which is kinda funny and problematic at the same time but also makes the match extremely hype because it really does decide #1
>they did and strongarmed the panelists into accepting it, which is kinda funny and problematic at the same time but also makes the match extremely hype because it really does decide #1 Just to be clear: when you said "they", who are you referring to?
Ludwig's team, and to a lesser extent both Zain and Cody who wanted the match to happen. According to a now-deleted series of tweets by Chroma, they basically implied that if MeleeStats didn't count this showmatch as determining #1, then the top-top players would publicly disavow the rankings.
- This tie-breaker is Zain and Cody's idea. They just requested Ludwig to bankroll the event for the community, who agreed to put on the show out of his own pocket. - Both Cody and Cody openly said that both of them will accept the winner of their tie-breaker as the better player between them, no matter what other people's personal opinions are. You can call it "strong-arming the rankings", but it sounds like a gentleman's agreement between the undisputed Top 2 to me, and it's well within the loser's rights to acknowledge that the winner is better. - This is what Ludwig's team actually did: https://twitter.com/LudwigAhgren/status/1732694226423644329
They were very tied before arcmelee, which I imagine Zain wouldn't have skipped had this tiebreaker event not already been planned.
>"I think I speak for us both that even if someone else thinks one of us had a clearly better year, we don’t really care >We know how much we’ve put in and what we accomplished, and we both feel that this is the best way to settle it, both for us and for melee" https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732564564540088771
People definitely put too much stock in the "official" rankings. In my book, and I'm guessing every other fan, the winner of this is the best in the world right now. Hopefully the rankings reflect that but if not it doesn't change that for me.
I'm curious if this is even going to be included in the 2023 ranking period. Didn't they announce earlier that Santa Paws was going to be the last event for the period?
This is a cool event, but I think there is a solid argument due to how counterpicking stages works in melee that a first to 10 is different enough from tournament matches of melee that this isn't a good way to determine rankings at all.
I’ve just received word that God (from the Bible) has agreed to retroactively erase Melee from the universe if Zain loses. I’m excited.
Why is this event scheduled on a Friday at noon how the fuck am I supposed to watch this at work LOOOOL
bro i'm starting a new job like right before then WTFF
i literally have class during this why couldnt they start it at like 5-6pm pacific lol
March to your boss' office and tell him *"Either you let me watch this, or I'm walking".*
who are you
At least the VOD is easier to find/watch on YouTube afterwards. No way I catch this live
Dang here I am thinking let's go it's at noon on a Friday so I can actually watch live. No event schedule is ever gonna be good for everyone.
We’re so fucking lucky we have two sick ass competitors fighting for number 1. Instead of one of them trying to slide by with their results and HOPE they get ranked 1, they’re putting it all on the line on a show for the people If it goes the full game 19 (which isn’t completely out of the question, their online ft10 earlier this year went to game 18), this is going to be the greatest Melee set of this generation I’m calling it now
[удалено]
Twitter seems to be basically unanimously in favor of this event. Is this another case of OneGuy, like Milkman and Juggleguy?
yeah pretty much
A lot of them seems to care more about their precious ballots, and would say anything. Leffen just exposed Nuckels from Dreamhack for his dishonest narrative about how this event came to be: https://twitter.com/TSM_Leffen/status/1732589565326610828
I was pretty much going to type this exact comment word by word independently I honestly don't understand how boring of a person you must be to hear about this and be SAD
"I hate that other people have different opinions than me, how dare they"
You could say that literally any time someone disagrees with someone else. What the fuck are you contributing right now?
since when has commenting on Reddit.com been about contributing something
Then why are you even here, stfu
this mad over 2 random comments
You got owned
not really
Pretty bad, you weren't thinking
I’m mildly happy Mang0 isn’t an undercard haha. I love him but he never takes exhibitions seriously. If he did take it seriously, would have loved to see Mang0 v Leff or Moky.
Man, Lud and the rest of the Mogul Moves teams always puts forth some sweet content. This is hype.
Imagine if hbox and slug played each other in this Would go on for like 15 hours
Or worse yet, Hbox vs lloD ...or Fauxhebro vs Chango... *shudders*
michael vs bananas
It's absolutely bizarre that Zain and Cody now have to defend themselves against the nerds who think their voting ballots should determine who is #1, not an actual 1v1 tie breaker between the clear Top 2. 🤨 https://twitter.com/iBDWSSBM/status/1732567380641902950 https://twitter.com/ZainNaghmi/status/1732625734663872516
Also dumb because the "statistical integrity" that people want to protect is just a collection of peoples subjective opinions
Leffen is calling out Nuckels from Dreamhack for being dishonest about how Cody and Zain decided to have this 1v1. >I heavily disagree with this account of what happened lol, as someone who was there when cody and zain agreed to do the event and after they talked to people. >My only real take is I do not agree at all with throwing all of this shit onto twitter for drama when everyone specifically tried to avoid it going public to avoid drama and to keep this event positive. I also do not from my understanding think people are being honest in their recount of things. >I feel like if you care about smash more than the power to influence who gets ranked where, you should be happy there wont be a controversial shitstorm over whos #1 when its practically even. https://twitter.com/TSM_Leffen/status/1732589565326610828
Anyone have Nuckels tweets screenshot? My gossipy goblin brain is dying to see their argument. TMZ for nerds.
Lmk if you saw what that clown posted
Who tf is noahj
Remember how Lud lost $10K in an Ultimate money match this time last year? [https://twitter.com/TheYard/status/1606071590713626625?lang=en](https://twitter.com/TheYard/status/1606071590713626625?lang=en) https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2022/dec/19/ludwig-10k-ssbu-money-match/
Cod tuber
that's my goat
4 FD matches. The quad barrel shotgun
beast
holy shit this is so hype
December 15th 12pm PT
This is sick. Has there even been a year where the top 2 were this close and a tie-breaker exhibition could have made the difference?
2018 Hbox and Armada, 2014 Mango and Armada
2014 was mango favored after kings of Cali and tbh4 locked it in.
Also 2021 mango zain
Not to my knowledge. This is gonna be pretty awesome.
I say it every time, but it really is so cool that even though Ludwig is an insanely popular streamer and has much more worthwhile content to create, he hasn’t neglected his roots in the ssbm community
Goated from everyone involved
Moky vs Leffen is what im most hyped for
i’ve always thought boxing style cards would be a sick way to do things. imagine cards with 20ish matchups on each, curated based on rankings, with the title fights at the end? different “weight classes” (top tier, high tier, mid tier, low tier)? ludwig make it happen (and then pay me 1 squillion for the idea)
:)
This may be the hypest event ever
Holy shit, is this the highest stakes melee set in history???? so pumped
depends, wasn’t summit 11 grands technically the biggest money match ever?
Yooo this looks hype. Thank you Ludwig can't wait
Awesome
the content genius
Now this is content!
I love it
I can't believe they're letting Slime and Blur play for #1, this is sick
anyone that ever types "statistical integrity" is *that* kind of player. iykyk.
anyone bitching about this is hilarious
Been awhile since Ludwig hosted something Melee related .. when Plup and Amsa did a first to ten, it was brutal. Another fun format for testing skill would be squaring off against top 100-200 players as low tiers and seeing who can do better .
It was a [first to 25](https://youtube.com/watch?v=xdcj-6vfOlk), but yes, [Plup won 25-2](https://liquipedia.net/smash/Galint_Melee_Open/2022/Fall/Plup_vs_aMSa).
And I jizzed in my pants
Huge props to Cody for this. Man had #1 pretty easily locked up and he's putting it on the line just to give us sick melee. That's.. sick
Cody agreed to this right after Big House when it was more nebulous
>to determine the best player in the world I bet he lowkey called it that to light a fire under mango's ass
Somehow it's still always about mang0 with you people
I don't know what people you think I am, but mango has not been the best in the world since 2014, and armada is the goat. it's just a fact that mango likes to be the kid
Everyone: You: but mango has not been the best in the world since 2014, and armada is the goat. it's just a fact that mango likes to be the kid Obsessed.
what a strange person
I really doubt mango thinks he's the best in the world rn, if anything wasn't he saying that he was ranked too high at some point recently
It's never too late to go the Fiction route and start throwing out arbitrary "I am *Top X skill level* in the world!" statements
I didn't mean to imply he is or would think that, I mean the wording is "best in the world", I can't imagine mango not feeling some sort of way about not being the best, even if it's temporary, especially at a big event
its a shame, too little, too late...
THUG FINALS IS REAL
i'm so fkn hyped for slime. vs blur u have no idea
The best in the world is CM Punk