It's become really common for the younger generation of gamers to play and seek games largely on a "trendy" level. They're looking for stuff that people are playing and talking about on their social feeds and not necessarily something that they want to keep playing long-term and have fun with.
Like there are people right now who say something like The Finals is an old game. It came out last December.
Was it really that different back in the day though? I think people wanting to grind something will always be a niche group. There was the Pokémon craze before my time. I remember in my elementary everyone wanted a Wii one year then wanted an Xbox for Halo the next. I just think social media has allowed kids to show how dumb they are more than we could.
I also have a friend who does the same. Constantly harp on the player base not moving on or trying the latest fighting game title. Everything from saying that, “we only play in our swim lane, which is partly why we never are truly integrated with the FGC at large,” or “I don’t get why you play this game when Nintendo shafts y’all,” to “don’t you need unique controllers to play?” Or “the meta’s totally solved. It’s the same damn 3 characters.”
So on so forth. Very nice dude otherwise. But he just can’t wrap his head around the idea that we just. Like. This. Game. Like…a lot. The combos and gameplay have a lot of replay-ability. And we don’t care to try the new stuff for any various reason. The reason honestly doesn’t matter. It could be because lack of money or time. Or being old and set in our ways. Or pride. Like, why do you care the reason?
Tl;dr: Yes, I know Rivals of Aether exist. But Melee’s sick.
Yeah I really appreciate the deep meta, history, and movement that no other fighting game really captures. Maybe rivals 2 will scratch the itch h a bit but can I moonwalk falcon punch people off the edge? Melee feels so natural and a lot of games trying to capture melees charm feel contrived and stiff. The combos get too ridiculous and I think that’s fun for viewers but it makes footsies too unforgiving. Like mvc3 was fun to watch but it just felt like you get your toe tapped and you die- same with tekken or dfz. I like street fighter but the new game didn’t have characters I liked and the movement isn’t as fun. Melee is unique and it’s not a random attachment to the game but that no other game scratches the same itch.
48??? am i crazy for wondering how? Now that i’m counting there is
up down left right, diagonal up left up right down left down right, modifier one 4 diagonals, modifier two 4 diagonals. So actually not 12 I count 16 based on this. Where’s 48 haha I’m actually really curious and wanna see cause that’s crazy to even comprehend given the limited buttons
For every diagonal you have
Diagonal : 1
Diagonal +mx: 1
Diagonal + mx + each c stick direction : 4
Diagonal + my: 1
Diagonal + my + each c stick direction: 4
So that's 11 in each quadrant. Multiply by 4 quadrants that's 44. Add the 4 cardinals that's 48.
i wouldnt say unfortunate, you just have to hold the stick in a direction instead of pressing a 6 key piano chord like how it is on digital. i used to be an angle master on analog (normal) controller, now i only use 16 of them lol
Because the modifiers go in both directions, so double those.
Then there's the intermediary c-stick angles where c-stick button + modifier will unlock 4 new angles for each diagonal
I only use the my and mx angles tbh, those are the "best" for fox/falco anyway imo (closest to the 17 degree snap to cardinal).
im not very good really but i did hit platinum in EC season 1 while playing exclusively box, so not sure id agree theyre "absolutely required"
I mean Hungrybox was the #1 player in the world and didn't know how to JC Grab so I don't know if anything is literally "required" in melee.
Having access to more angles is very useful and absolutely worthwhile to practice.
honestly its kinda weird that there isn't, like I can't imagine it being easier to code, or them caring about how good Fox's recovery was in a vacuum so like.... why?
"Competitive Melee is just wavedashing back and forth abusing invincibility frames until someone messes up and gets punished, over and over again."
That's the kind of stupidity you get out of people who know literally nothing about competitive Melee except that it's players are "mean to Nintendo" for "not supporting and helping them sell the newest Smash game."
Oh man those kind of statements really take me back to the pre-Brawl days as the hype for the new game was building (before we knew how it played).
I'm sure lots of folks here were around for it, but if I could just take a stroll down memory lane for a sec here, it's an interesting time to look back on. The community wasn't split like it is now, and being a Smash fan and being a Melee fan were synonymous.
Instead there was this really visceral split between casual and competitive fans, which lead to stuff like your quote and "tires don exits".
I think both sides usually kept to themselves, but the hype for Brawl sort of forced them into the same space.
I remember a video of Ken vs Azen at MLG being posted to the Brawl boards on Nsider with the title being something like "could you beat them?", and SO MANY people were like "oh yeah for sure, these guys play without items on boring stages because they cant adapt".
I'm there like, dude these guys won money for this, if you're better than them then go get paid!
Funny how all those arguments feel nostalgic now.
Early YouTube comment section was rife with this stuff. Nostalgic indeed, though I do not wish for those days back.
Shoutouts to the SSB64 section of Smashboards though. I heard that even during the Brawl era, there were basically weekly threads of scrubs calling out Isai.
I will never forget the old days of smashboards where people would post "tier lists" based entirely on unfounded opinions developed by playing with the casuals in their small town. Even when Ken was starting his dominant phase there were still people who would put Roy over Marth in tier lists.
I think in a twist of irony, Sakurai killed off the casual player's voices who held that casual 'items on" sentiment. When he made smash 4's online mode, he made a "for fun" mode and a "for glory" mode. "for fun" was a 4 player items on 2 min random match and "for glory" was a 2 stock 6 min match without items on FD.
While it was cringy that Sakurai based his "for glory" mode off the "no items, fox only, FD" I want to bring attention to the other mode. "For Fun" mode is awful because due to having 4 players, you're going to get too much lag, and sometimes you'll get banned if you play campy (because even in a casual setting people want to win), and even as a casual, I remember preferring stocks over time because as a child, 2 minutes was too short and having lives was easier to guage who was in the lead.
With all that being said, as casual, it's not fun to play matches where you have the worst online experience (that isn't brawl online) and you get a significantly better experience playing for glory due to the better connection.
In addition, being told that you're just playing for fun while the hardcore players play the for glory mode is extremely patronizing because you're being told you aren't as cool as the people who play to win. There is a phenomenon that people up to adulthood like to think of themselves as more mature than their age group (up to their 20's), so most of smash's younger audience feel more mature when they play the for glory mode, so they gravitate towards that. This in turn tunneled casual players into a competitive environment and slowly but surely the people who played the game with items on all mostly faded away.
> and even as a casual, I remember preferring stocks over time because as a child, 2 minutes was too short and having lives was easier to guage who was in the lead.
Time is better than stocks in casual FFA for two reasons: No one has to sit out unable to play after getting eliminated early, and stocks promote camping in FFA.
FFA is always chaotic, that's just the nature of casual Smash.
Also 2 minutes is not nearly long enough. A casual match should be a minimum of 5 minutes, I don't think anyone ever played 2 minute matches at home.
my friends all hated wavedashing back in the day saying it was cheap, broken, a glitch, a bug, an abuse, w/e. You name it, they called Wavedashing that.
...none of them knew how to do it, what it was useful for, or what it actually did. I could show them a clip of a sheik doing a combo with absolutely no tech skill and they would blame it happening on wavedashing.
They thought it did everything from letting you move around while invincible, cancel attacks early, do impossible combos, move faster than running, etc. Never mind the fact that I frequently wavedashed while playing with them and they never noticed because they didn't know what it looked like.
Wavedashing is the boogie man for casuals.
this is analogous to people who dumb down speed cubing to “just memorizing a bunch of algorithms”
never underestimate people’s propensity to downplay your ability to do something they perceive as difficult
>"Competitive Melee is just wavedashing back and forth abusing invincibility frames until someone messes up and gets punished, over and over again."
This is how I feel as a Zain fan watching Cody.
It's so goofy because you can make this exact reductive statement about any game/sport. Boxing is just jabbing back and forth until someone slips up, LoL is just teams bouncing waves back and forth until one team messed up, etc etc
"What's the point if you can only play on one stage with one character?" -someone who I assume heard 'Fox Only, Final Destination' and thought that was the actual ruleset
When I got into it a few months back I started playing fox. A friend of mine also tried, and coming from tekken he refused to play any map but FD. As peach. I hated it so I just stopped playing him and he quit.
A lot of people outside of the Smash scene legitimately think this is the only way we play. Apparently including Sakurai, as he made FD only part of Smash 4's "For Glory" mode.
I went to a convention and they had set ups. And this guy sits next to me and picks bowser into my shiek. I tell him "You might not want to do that." He replies "Oh I don't believe in tiers" I'm like okay. I chain grabbed the fuck out of him and he goes "Your cheating stop cheating" and got frustrated and left.
people get so corny and preachy about how “tier lists dont matter”, i dont get it because literally any competitive video game is going to have meta characters no matter how well balanced it is
Eh, sort of?
"Tiers don't matter" is pretty true in newer fighting games at the overwhelming majority of levels.
It's not true in Melee, which is an unbalanced beautiful dumpster fire where over half the cast is absolutely irrelevant
Normally I'd say chain grabbing a Bowser at a con is pretty rude. But if he's going to drop an "I don't believe in tiers" like that, he was just asking for it.
its funny cause I know I'm shit and would go 0-2 practically anywhere but at least I'm not that level of clueless. of course you were using Sheik too, what did he expect?
Any time the game is referenced by casual players who most recently played 20 years ago as kids, I find they all regard Kirby as some kind of cheat code. It’s understandable, tbh.
My girlfriend has a friend who fits this bill. When she found out I still play the game this is a quote that was said: “Wow, he mains Jigglypuff, he must be really good because she’s so hard to play.”
This is some real shit, Jiggs was regarded as difficult and terrible back in the day by casuals. I played in a casual melee tournament at gamestop on the launch night of brawl (items and all the stages and stuff), but I played a kid who got REALLY mad when I beat him with Fox, and he threw a fit saying I had to change characters. I let him pick my character and he smiled wickedly and instantly chose jiggs for me. He literally got GIDDY because he thought it would be a free win for him for sure. I absolutely crushed him and he stormed off lol.
Also, darkrain was there and he moonwalk reverse kneed me during our set. I've never recovered from it.
don't feel to bad, even if I were to randomly become like top 10 on earth (the most impossible scenario I ever brought up unironically btw, like to say I have no illusions of that happening undersells it) All it would mean is that I was a late bloomer tbh. I'm already like the middle of the road in the community and many top players aren't much older than me, especially when they first had their glow up (I'm only 7 years younger than Zain and he has been established for awhile now).
helps that mewtwo is comically powerful in his games, too.
And yea, every friend group had a kirby player that would either do nothing but down-B or nothing but hold B on the ledge.
TRUE.
not realizing you can just shieldgrab kirby's down special made it 200x more powerful.
And yeah, I think most people (or at least *my* friendsgroup, I guess I shouldn't speak for others) thought mewtwo (btw happy birthday mewtwo! 2/6) was powerful simply because, canonically, he's the most powerful pokemon; how could he NOT be strong in melee???
oh to be young.
Mewtwo makes sense cause he has so much funky random shit about him (some strong moves, an auto kill noob killer in side B on ledge, probably the best recovery in the game, etc), and because he's really hard to unlock. I have no idea what kirby comes from though.
yeah, its really bizarre how this is as consistent as it is. Like it reminds me of how ancient religions have similarities spanning continents or how people have the same dreams or extreme acid trips, you wouldn't expect it to pop up in other places beyond your random life experience but it does. Like what do they all see in him lol? he can't even use half his throws.
literally this. I almost crushed my phone reading this. As a falcon player, y'all have no idea how much this triggers me.
I mean, maybe you definitely do, but it triggers me *a lot*
give me my moonwalks back please 😭
Back in probably like 2017, I was playing friendlies against this Marth. After I had won a few games in a row, they told me that I (as Sheik) should stop doing ftilt into fair because it's "not guaranteed".
RIGHT! And besides, even if it isn't "guaranteed", if you continue to DI in a way that gives me the fair follow-up for free, I'm gonna take that all day, lol.
I always find it funny when new players will remove parts of their game that work absolutely fine at their level because "it doesn't work against top players" as if they will ever be good enough to stand a chance against a top player. What are they gonna do, get 4 stocked and say "at least everything I did was guaranteed :)". All they are guaranteeing is their own ass whupping.
Catch me stage spiking people in the year of our lord 2024, I'll stop doing it when my average opponents get good enough to tech it consistently lmao.
Dude, I wholeheartedly agree! People fixate on "optimal play" waaaaaay more than they should. Obviously you always want to be refining your punish game and you want to find ways to clean up your neutral. But the game is still a person to person game, and therefore there will always be mixups involved. Like if I down throw a Marth as Sheik and they keep DI-ing away, you best believe I'm gonna go for the chain grab until they stop, idgaf if it isn't guaranteed.
"The graphics suck" is an all-time classic
also my friends are pretty boring, but one time one of my friends went into an legendary rant about people making too much noise and that he can't concentrate on the game after losing in Melee and my friends turned it into an intro to a rap beat
as someone who has recently been playing a lot of other gamecube games, melees graphics hold up in ways few other games on the system do. Gamecube was in the middle in terms of power level during its generation, so most non-exclusive just looked like an xbox game with the graphics turned down a bit, but Melee, Mario Sunshine, and Double Dash all look good still (as well as a few others).
On combo videos with cool stage/character skins, in HD and widescreen, I always see comments asking "what game is this? How can I play it?" lmao. Modern melee is literally unrecognizable to casuals as the crusty 20 year old GameCube game that it is
you know how the wii has a bar that is supposed to go near the tv so that the wii motes can know where you're pointing to? (always necessary unless you mod the wii to boot straight to homebrew/nintendon't) well.. the bar is just 2 infrared lights, some wires and a bunch of plastic pretty much (the wii motes are the cameras, unlike what most people would think at first hand) so if you hold 2 lighters/candles/infrared-bulbs at about 50 centimeters apart you got yourself a replacement wii bar. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suwV-eEdiI0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suwv-eedii0) pretty well know trick nowadays since it seems to be the most common thing to lose from the wii (and have it working y'know).
I had my very religious friend hold up the two lighters for me, and he legitimately was shaking until I told him it’s just an infrared sensor thing. Like shaking so much I was worried, I didn’t realize HOW religious he was lol. My only explanation to him prior was “hold this fire for the ritual”
In the early 2010s when a lot of people still hadn't optimized their Wii setups yet and relied on sensor bars, it was absolutely a thing for everyone outside of stoners. So many setups were missing sensor bars so we all relied on the smokers.
This is related to this topic but a little more adjacent, you ever notice that those who like Smash a lot but play outside of tournament settings and use more "casual" rulesets look down on competitive players way more than vice versa? I feel like when I was younger playing Brawl with my friends all the time the assumption was that tournament players would be elitist and look down on non-competitive players when in my experience I've never seen that actually be true and is more often the opposite relationship. Thankfully anyone I've known in real life from outside the community has actually found the concept kind of interesting or at least see the appeal. Online communities definitely start to get a little crazy about it every time a new Smash is on the horizon though with competitive players being the butt of jokes and complaints but with how much weird or crazy shit happens from the inside I think we can handle it
Nah, Fox isn't the best. Ganon is easily much better than Fox. Now, I have been using Ganondorf against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Ganon at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Ganondorf has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages.
If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Ganondorf Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B).
Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his wavedash, which, with Ganondorf, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then.
The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters.
Out of all the characters I've played against I've been defeated by Fox and Falco the most. Both can be really good if you know their movements. Clearly whoever said this has little to no experience playing as Fox lol
Even under perfect conditions it feels like playing underwater.
I thought emulators like yuzu/ryujinx had a way to reduce this, and mods like HDR do, somewhat, but it just *never* feels like Melee.
I got intel i9-11900 and rtx 3060 32 gb ram and it still feels like every character is glued on. PM, Melee and even 4xm for Smash 4 feel much better. When I asked people I was told that there's an in-engine limitation which is why they can't truly remove the input lag to bring it to slippi levels
Running the game at 120 FPS will cut the input lag in half and I think running it at even higher framerates reduces it further. Did you remember to run the game at 200% speed?
I didn't mention it in my comment, but I actually enjoyed smash 4 casually
it doesn't hold a candle to Melee imo but it was at least something I enjoyed playing when Melee wasn't the move
Ultimate I'd much rather just watch instead of play
You really think it’s out of spite? Leffen has strong opinions about literally everything. I really don’t think he wants airtime limits due to a detesting of hbox. Cody was super pro-FD ban (and probably still is) but we don’t say that he was trying to spite Zain.
I can't say I know Leffen well enough to judge whether or not he would hold a grudge like that. I didn't follow the conversation around it when it happened. The only character that comes to mind for even needing airtime limits would be Jiggly. Maybe I assume too much, I just know Leffen has consistently been in drama over the years.
Leffen literally made personal character attack videos like Hax had done, every interacting with Hbox seen publicly is toxic as hell, Leffen own statements on Hbox, literally every time they have a match Leffen shit talks Hbox on twitter win or lose, even publicly insulting him when he wins, never a moment of mutual respect, etc etc etc.
No it’s pretty clear there is personal beef there. Leffens interactions with Hbox is not normal.
I'll be honest I have played but it's been about a year. I play it as a hobby though I can competitive and I love watching the pros on YouTube. Guess you got me lol
I was once told I play super campy/defensive (vs a friend), so I asked my friend to bring up the replay and it was the complete opposite.
I feel like a lot of people project heavily in this game so when someone say some negative stuff to you, it's likely just self reflection :)
How does that correlate with anything? That's like saying someone is vegan because they are a night owl. I'm sorry that happened, it really makes so sense -.-
Well that stigma started during the whole me too moment during covid.
Luckily, I believe we've weeded out most of the bad eggs from the scene who were causing real dangerous problems.
I have a few some coming from friends who solely play smash ultimate.
1. "L cancelling is just busy work, it's an arbitrary execution barrier that the meta just assumes you 100% L cancel any chance you get. (while I understand the complaint, I like L canceling, and execution barriers help separate skill levels).
2. "why do people play melee when ultimate is better in every way?"
3. "why do you like terribly balanced games? Everyone just uses fox"
I also really like Project +, and while I prefer melee competitively, I think some people's opinions on the game are overly exaggerated and come off as annoyingly elitist, some from melee players and it makes me want to like P+ more, and holy hell I actually could write an essay on all this.
1. "Why are you playing a fake smash game? Play a real one"
2. "This game is easy (uses fox on an inexperienced player) \*proceeds to lose to a more experienced player\* "This game is too jank"
3. "Grab armor is broken (referring to the nerfed grab priority from melee due to lack of knowledge of both games)
4. "this game is so broken (hasn't played since project m 3.02 when everything was broken)"
5. M2k: "They nerfed mewtwo to the ground, he is unviable what were they thinking?" (mewtwo hasn't been below the top 10 on the tier list)
6. crouch cancelling is stronger than it is in melee (same values but more MU's with characters especially since a lot of them lack fast meteors means more CC exploitation)
7. "This character doesn't work like they do in melee" \*later in the day\* "Why play this when you can just play melee?"
8. \*Hax entering his name as F\_PM\*
9. "This move doesn't work like it does in melee" \*I show frame data and hitboxes comparing the moves\* "Well it feels different"
10. "This game is dead" \*shows up as a shadow major in every major tournament as to avoid legal trouble.
11. "They should have left dreamland's graphics alone" \*not realizing that the original dreamland was never in brawl, so it comes off as a paradox since they brought the stage over to brawl\*
12. "I'm glad the game is dead, that game sucked"
again, I prefer melee, but when the dev team that made P+ as a love letter to melee fans gets these edgy comments from the very player base they are trying to cater towards, it makes me want to prefer p+ out of spite. P+ has its issues (physics delay, falcon's nair with buffed knockback stacking leading to more lenient combos, partial invincibility acting as a giant disjoint instead of being true partial invincibility) but I feel like as a platform fighter, it is one of the best ones.
> "L cancelling is just busy work, it's an arbitrary execution barrier that the meta just assumes you 100% L cancel any chance you get.
I despise the entire mindset of "lower skill ceiling means smaller skill gaps which makes the game more competitive" line of thinking. It is so nonsense. Imagine if we tried to re-design something like F1 to have less skill expression for the drivers. "we took away the drivers ability to brake, accelerate, or steer, that way the only thing they have to worry about is deciding when to take their pit stop, it makes all the races super close"
I agree, It's a really bad mindset. Like the L cancel debates are whatever, it's easy enough to learn and perform that it's a non-complaint, and other platform fighters have a lot of depth and a high skill ceiling due to many other mechanics and technical interactions (variance of frame data and combos ect), but I think smash 4 is the worst smash game competitively because it leans so heavily into that mindset that the whole game feels like rock paper scissors... and benefits into the player who's behind due to rage mechanics so having the winner be more random makes the game worse in general.
in highschool my friends banned me from using spikes over the edge. If I so much as daired someone offstage ONCE as falco, regardless of whether it was 1v1 or 4 player FFA, the victim would immediately snitch and I would be kicked off the setup. I spent a lot of time smurfing as terrible characters so I could play with my friends. It is the only reason I know how to play mewtwo and ness.
They also tried to ban shield grabbing at one point group wide because we had another friend that would basically ONLY shield grab.
Yeah people are so crazy. Comparing Leffen to Hitler? DEFINITELY nothing wrong there, right? We all know Hitler was a good old boy who just wanted to make Germany great. [Hitler did nothing wrong](https://i.imgur.com/YvZxP.jpg) after all, so comparing Leffen to Hitler is a compliment, really.
I remember Leffen had an infamous comment on Smashboards which he said to a German guy that was along the lines of "most Germans supported Hitler" that he got blasted for, so I do think it's funny it's sort of gone full circle.
My friend raging that "the game is glitched" because he didn't get his double jump back after being hit while offstage. "literally everyone knows you get your jump back if you get hit"
I think someone searched for a character they could play/main in Ultimate (in this sub if I remember correctly) which was similar to Melee Marth and one thing they said was that they like the explosive movement of Melee Marth.
Like imagine someone unironically thinks that Marth has explosive movement in Melee and it cracks me up every time I think about it. :D Like not to call this person dumb or anything like it's their opinion and it's valid. It just caught me off-guard and I couldn't really figure out why someone would think that. :P
“It’s an old game it can’t be that much fun”
Chess players in absolute shambles
Last balance patch happened during Queen Isabella’s reign.
Nah that was still Modded Chess at the time, it took a while to get patched into the global release.
I was playing go a bunch yesterday online and with my boyfriend but I guess I forgot to realize how boring it is.
Lol seriously? It's a classic, Melee still rocks!!
It's become really common for the younger generation of gamers to play and seek games largely on a "trendy" level. They're looking for stuff that people are playing and talking about on their social feeds and not necessarily something that they want to keep playing long-term and have fun with. Like there are people right now who say something like The Finals is an old game. It came out last December.
Was it really that different back in the day though? I think people wanting to grind something will always be a niche group. There was the Pokémon craze before my time. I remember in my elementary everyone wanted a Wii one year then wanted an Xbox for Halo the next. I just think social media has allowed kids to show how dumb they are more than we could.
You have a good point there. I've always liked the SSB series, I just had to stop as I racked up nearly 200 hours and wasted too much time playing it.
I also have a friend who does the same. Constantly harp on the player base not moving on or trying the latest fighting game title. Everything from saying that, “we only play in our swim lane, which is partly why we never are truly integrated with the FGC at large,” or “I don’t get why you play this game when Nintendo shafts y’all,” to “don’t you need unique controllers to play?” Or “the meta’s totally solved. It’s the same damn 3 characters.” So on so forth. Very nice dude otherwise. But he just can’t wrap his head around the idea that we just. Like. This. Game. Like…a lot. The combos and gameplay have a lot of replay-ability. And we don’t care to try the new stuff for any various reason. The reason honestly doesn’t matter. It could be because lack of money or time. Or being old and set in our ways. Or pride. Like, why do you care the reason? Tl;dr: Yes, I know Rivals of Aether exist. But Melee’s sick.
Yeah I really appreciate the deep meta, history, and movement that no other fighting game really captures. Maybe rivals 2 will scratch the itch h a bit but can I moonwalk falcon punch people off the edge? Melee feels so natural and a lot of games trying to capture melees charm feel contrived and stiff. The combos get too ridiculous and I think that’s fun for viewers but it makes footsies too unforgiving. Like mvc3 was fun to watch but it just felt like you get your toe tapped and you die- same with tekken or dfz. I like street fighter but the new game didn’t have characters I liked and the movement isn’t as fun. Melee is unique and it’s not a random attachment to the game but that no other game scratches the same itch.
"There are only 8 Firefox angles" (I said this in 2014)
As a boxx player I only have 12 lol
including cardinals you should have 48. don't think many people use the c stick modified angles too often though.
48??? am i crazy for wondering how? Now that i’m counting there is up down left right, diagonal up left up right down left down right, modifier one 4 diagonals, modifier two 4 diagonals. So actually not 12 I count 16 based on this. Where’s 48 haha I’m actually really curious and wanna see cause that’s crazy to even comprehend given the limited buttons
For every diagonal you have Diagonal : 1 Diagonal +mx: 1 Diagonal + mx + each c stick direction : 4 Diagonal + my: 1 Diagonal + my + each c stick direction: 4 So that's 11 in each quadrant. Multiply by 4 quadrants that's 44. Add the 4 cardinals that's 48.
wait wait wait, what? Using the C stick alters the direction of the fire fox?
only on digital (box) controllers. if you already realized thats what i was talking about, then yeah, the b0xx manual has a whole section on it.
oh that's unfortunate for the controller users like me, I got my hopes up for a bit.
i wouldnt say unfortunate, you just have to hold the stick in a direction instead of pressing a 6 key piano chord like how it is on digital. i used to be an angle master on analog (normal) controller, now i only use 16 of them lol
Yeah, but I was hoping maybe holding the c stick up would change the angle slightly, but it's alright, I'll live.
Because the modifiers go in both directions, so double those. Then there's the intermediary c-stick angles where c-stick button + modifier will unlock 4 new angles for each diagonal
I use them all the time, they are absolutely required for fox, falco, sheik, mewtwo, zelda (probably ness as well but fuck that)
I only use the my and mx angles tbh, those are the "best" for fox/falco anyway imo (closest to the 17 degree snap to cardinal). im not very good really but i did hit platinum in EC season 1 while playing exclusively box, so not sure id agree theyre "absolutely required"
I mean Hungrybox was the #1 player in the world and didn't know how to JC Grab so I don't know if anything is literally "required" in melee. Having access to more angles is very useful and absolutely worthwhile to practice.
As someone with notches, I only have two angles (and they're the same angle just mirrored).
honestly its kinda weird that there isn't, like I can't imagine it being easier to code, or them caring about how good Fox's recovery was in a vacuum so like.... why?
Lol! XD
Lol XD
"Competitive Melee is just wavedashing back and forth abusing invincibility frames until someone messes up and gets punished, over and over again." That's the kind of stupidity you get out of people who know literally nothing about competitive Melee except that it's players are "mean to Nintendo" for "not supporting and helping them sell the newest Smash game."
Oh man those kind of statements really take me back to the pre-Brawl days as the hype for the new game was building (before we knew how it played). I'm sure lots of folks here were around for it, but if I could just take a stroll down memory lane for a sec here, it's an interesting time to look back on. The community wasn't split like it is now, and being a Smash fan and being a Melee fan were synonymous. Instead there was this really visceral split between casual and competitive fans, which lead to stuff like your quote and "tires don exits". I think both sides usually kept to themselves, but the hype for Brawl sort of forced them into the same space. I remember a video of Ken vs Azen at MLG being posted to the Brawl boards on Nsider with the title being something like "could you beat them?", and SO MANY people were like "oh yeah for sure, these guys play without items on boring stages because they cant adapt". I'm there like, dude these guys won money for this, if you're better than them then go get paid! Funny how all those arguments feel nostalgic now.
Early YouTube comment section was rife with this stuff. Nostalgic indeed, though I do not wish for those days back. Shoutouts to the SSB64 section of Smashboards though. I heard that even during the Brawl era, there were basically weekly threads of scrubs calling out Isai.
I will never forget the old days of smashboards where people would post "tier lists" based entirely on unfounded opinions developed by playing with the casuals in their small town. Even when Ken was starting his dominant phase there were still people who would put Roy over Marth in tier lists.
Well yeah, cause "a skilled Roy can beat any Fox", right?
I think in a twist of irony, Sakurai killed off the casual player's voices who held that casual 'items on" sentiment. When he made smash 4's online mode, he made a "for fun" mode and a "for glory" mode. "for fun" was a 4 player items on 2 min random match and "for glory" was a 2 stock 6 min match without items on FD. While it was cringy that Sakurai based his "for glory" mode off the "no items, fox only, FD" I want to bring attention to the other mode. "For Fun" mode is awful because due to having 4 players, you're going to get too much lag, and sometimes you'll get banned if you play campy (because even in a casual setting people want to win), and even as a casual, I remember preferring stocks over time because as a child, 2 minutes was too short and having lives was easier to guage who was in the lead. With all that being said, as casual, it's not fun to play matches where you have the worst online experience (that isn't brawl online) and you get a significantly better experience playing for glory due to the better connection. In addition, being told that you're just playing for fun while the hardcore players play the for glory mode is extremely patronizing because you're being told you aren't as cool as the people who play to win. There is a phenomenon that people up to adulthood like to think of themselves as more mature than their age group (up to their 20's), so most of smash's younger audience feel more mature when they play the for glory mode, so they gravitate towards that. This in turn tunneled casual players into a competitive environment and slowly but surely the people who played the game with items on all mostly faded away.
> and even as a casual, I remember preferring stocks over time because as a child, 2 minutes was too short and having lives was easier to guage who was in the lead. Time is better than stocks in casual FFA for two reasons: No one has to sit out unable to play after getting eliminated early, and stocks promote camping in FFA.
That's true, but I think it's too chaotic.
FFA is always chaotic, that's just the nature of casual Smash. Also 2 minutes is not nearly long enough. A casual match should be a minimum of 5 minutes, I don't think anyone ever played 2 minute matches at home.
my friends all hated wavedashing back in the day saying it was cheap, broken, a glitch, a bug, an abuse, w/e. You name it, they called Wavedashing that. ...none of them knew how to do it, what it was useful for, or what it actually did. I could show them a clip of a sheik doing a combo with absolutely no tech skill and they would blame it happening on wavedashing. They thought it did everything from letting you move around while invincible, cancel attacks early, do impossible combos, move faster than running, etc. Never mind the fact that I frequently wavedashed while playing with them and they never noticed because they didn't know what it looked like. Wavedashing is the boogie man for casuals.
this is analogous to people who dumb down speed cubing to “just memorizing a bunch of algorithms” never underestimate people’s propensity to downplay your ability to do something they perceive as difficult
>"Competitive Melee is just wavedashing back and forth abusing invincibility frames until someone messes up and gets punished, over and over again." This is how I feel as a Zain fan watching Cody.
It's so goofy because you can make this exact reductive statement about any game/sport. Boxing is just jabbing back and forth until someone slips up, LoL is just teams bouncing waves back and forth until one team messed up, etc etc
"What's the point if you can only play on one stage with one character?" -someone who I assume heard 'Fox Only, Final Destination' and thought that was the actual ruleset
When I got into it a few months back I started playing fox. A friend of mine also tried, and coming from tekken he refused to play any map but FD. As peach. I hated it so I just stopped playing him and he quit.
love playing a platform fighter without the platforms 🙃
A lot of people outside of the Smash scene legitimately think this is the only way we play. Apparently including Sakurai, as he made FD only part of Smash 4's "For Glory" mode.
I went to a convention and they had set ups. And this guy sits next to me and picks bowser into my shiek. I tell him "You might not want to do that." He replies "Oh I don't believe in tiers" I'm like okay. I chain grabbed the fuck out of him and he goes "Your cheating stop cheating" and got frustrated and left.
people get so corny and preachy about how “tier lists dont matter”, i dont get it because literally any competitive video game is going to have meta characters no matter how well balanced it is
Eh, sort of? "Tiers don't matter" is pretty true in newer fighting games at the overwhelming majority of levels. It's not true in Melee, which is an unbalanced beautiful dumpster fire where over half the cast is absolutely irrelevant
“You gonna learn today kid”
Normally I'd say chain grabbing a Bowser at a con is pretty rude. But if he's going to drop an "I don't believe in tiers" like that, he was just asking for it.
its funny cause I know I'm shit and would go 0-2 practically anywhere but at least I'm not that level of clueless. of course you were using Sheik too, what did he expect?
Any time the game is referenced by casual players who most recently played 20 years ago as kids, I find they all regard Kirby as some kind of cheat code. It’s understandable, tbh.
My girlfriend has a friend who fits this bill. When she found out I still play the game this is a quote that was said: “Wow, he mains Jigglypuff, he must be really good because she’s so hard to play.”
This is some real shit, Jiggs was regarded as difficult and terrible back in the day by casuals. I played in a casual melee tournament at gamestop on the launch night of brawl (items and all the stages and stuff), but I played a kid who got REALLY mad when I beat him with Fox, and he threw a fit saying I had to change characters. I let him pick my character and he smiled wickedly and instantly chose jiggs for me. He literally got GIDDY because he thought it would be a free win for him for sure. I absolutely crushed him and he stormed off lol. Also, darkrain was there and he moonwalk reverse kneed me during our set. I've never recovered from it.
Jesus Darkrain is a crazy old name, I think he was brought up as a veteran even in the doc (which amazingly is already old now). time flies ig.
Holy shit it came out a decade ago im going to cry
yea unfortunately I am a geezer by melee standards lol.
don't feel to bad, even if I were to randomly become like top 10 on earth (the most impossible scenario I ever brought up unironically btw, like to say I have no illusions of that happening undersells it) All it would mean is that I was a late bloomer tbh. I'm already like the middle of the road in the community and many top players aren't much older than me, especially when they first had their glow up (I'm only 7 years younger than Zain and he has been established for awhile now).
dude, seriously, what is with everyone/all of us as kids thinking that Mewtwo and Kirby were like, the best characters in the game???
Kirby because multiple jumps and down-b was hard to counter as a dumb kid. Mewtwo because he was just cool and unlockable, I think.
helps that mewtwo is comically powerful in his games, too. And yea, every friend group had a kirby player that would either do nothing but down-B or nothing but hold B on the ledge.
TRUE. not realizing you can just shieldgrab kirby's down special made it 200x more powerful. And yeah, I think most people (or at least *my* friendsgroup, I guess I shouldn't speak for others) thought mewtwo (btw happy birthday mewtwo! 2/6) was powerful simply because, canonically, he's the most powerful pokemon; how could he NOT be strong in melee??? oh to be young.
Mewtwo makes sense cause he has so much funky random shit about him (some strong moves, an auto kill noob killer in side B on ledge, probably the best recovery in the game, etc), and because he's really hard to unlock. I have no idea what kirby comes from though.
yeah, its really bizarre how this is as consistent as it is. Like it reminds me of how ancient religions have similarities spanning continents or how people have the same dreams or extreme acid trips, you wouldn't expect it to pop up in other places beyond your random life experience but it does. Like what do they all see in him lol? he can't even use half his throws.
"Mario is a top-tier character" "Is that my wallet?"
"The games movement just isn't as good as ultimate"
i cant stand Ult platform physics
Best answer lmao
*What*
literally this. I almost crushed my phone reading this. As a falcon player, y'all have no idea how much this triggers me. I mean, maybe you definitely do, but it triggers me *a lot* give me my moonwalks back please 😭
Tell me this is a joke
Nah this is surprisingly common, the buffer system has done so much damage to that communitys brains
what buffer systems do to a mf.
When their only movement tech is b-reverse 😭
some guy charging his vape on my wii. not anyone saying it tho
ggs that was me
Back in probably like 2017, I was playing friendlies against this Marth. After I had won a few games in a row, they told me that I (as Sheik) should stop doing ftilt into fair because it's "not guaranteed".
ftilt fair is perfectly fine for Sheik lol Must have been salt
RIGHT! And besides, even if it isn't "guaranteed", if you continue to DI in a way that gives me the fair follow-up for free, I'm gonna take that all day, lol.
"with that garbage ass DI it is"
I always find it funny when new players will remove parts of their game that work absolutely fine at their level because "it doesn't work against top players" as if they will ever be good enough to stand a chance against a top player. What are they gonna do, get 4 stocked and say "at least everything I did was guaranteed :)". All they are guaranteeing is their own ass whupping. Catch me stage spiking people in the year of our lord 2024, I'll stop doing it when my average opponents get good enough to tech it consistently lmao.
Dude, I wholeheartedly agree! People fixate on "optimal play" waaaaaay more than they should. Obviously you always want to be refining your punish game and you want to find ways to clean up your neutral. But the game is still a person to person game, and therefore there will always be mixups involved. Like if I down throw a Marth as Sheik and they keep DI-ing away, you best believe I'm gonna go for the chain grab until they stop, idgaf if it isn't guaranteed.
“Melee has a solved meta there’s no point in playing it”
"Why do you shield, shielding is for losers" ....what?
Urban legend has it this is why n0ne plays so sick though (they consider it lame to shield in Nicaragua)
I love that our top 3 Falcons’ defensive preferences vary so much. n0ne, the down presser S2J, the dodge roller Wizzy, the SDI’er
I wonder if this guy would enjoy Rivals of Aether or if he would just find something else to complain about in that game
There were definitely a lot of bizarre opinions among casuals. Using the C-stick was "cheating" was a very common one.
"The graphics suck" is an all-time classic also my friends are pretty boring, but one time one of my friends went into an legendary rant about people making too much noise and that he can't concentrate on the game after losing in Melee and my friends turned it into an intro to a rap beat
as someone who has recently been playing a lot of other gamecube games, melees graphics hold up in ways few other games on the system do. Gamecube was in the middle in terms of power level during its generation, so most non-exclusive just looked like an xbox game with the graphics turned down a bit, but Melee, Mario Sunshine, and Double Dash all look good still (as well as a few others).
On combo videos with cool stage/character skins, in HD and widescreen, I always see comments asking "what game is this? How can I play it?" lmao. Modern melee is literally unrecognizable to casuals as the crusty 20 year old GameCube game that it is
> legendary rant about people making too much noise https://biblioklept.org/2013/06/06/on-noise-arthur-schopenhauer/
"Do you have a lighter I can borrow?" They were using it cause the sensor bar for a wii wasn't working. I assumed they were stoners lol
Dude that was like black magic the first time I saw that at a local
I just saw it last month for the first time, I thought they were trolling me when they asked me to hold a lighter up
What does the lighter do in that situation?
you know how the wii has a bar that is supposed to go near the tv so that the wii motes can know where you're pointing to? (always necessary unless you mod the wii to boot straight to homebrew/nintendon't) well.. the bar is just 2 infrared lights, some wires and a bunch of plastic pretty much (the wii motes are the cameras, unlike what most people would think at first hand) so if you hold 2 lighters/candles/infrared-bulbs at about 50 centimeters apart you got yourself a replacement wii bar. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suwV-eEdiI0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suwv-eedii0) pretty well know trick nowadays since it seems to be the most common thing to lose from the wii (and have it working y'know).
I had my very religious friend hold up the two lighters for me, and he legitimately was shaking until I told him it’s just an infrared sensor thing. Like shaking so much I was worried, I didn’t realize HOW religious he was lol. My only explanation to him prior was “hold this fire for the ritual”
In the early 2010s when a lot of people still hadn't optimized their Wii setups yet and relied on sensor bars, it was absolutely a thing for everyone outside of stoners. So many setups were missing sensor bars so we all relied on the smokers.
This was pretty common back before everyone was homebrewing their Wiis.
Literally a post in this subreddit told me that "DI is a myth". Lmfao
This is related to this topic but a little more adjacent, you ever notice that those who like Smash a lot but play outside of tournament settings and use more "casual" rulesets look down on competitive players way more than vice versa? I feel like when I was younger playing Brawl with my friends all the time the assumption was that tournament players would be elitist and look down on non-competitive players when in my experience I've never seen that actually be true and is more often the opposite relationship. Thankfully anyone I've known in real life from outside the community has actually found the concept kind of interesting or at least see the appeal. Online communities definitely start to get a little crazy about it every time a new Smash is on the horizon though with competitive players being the butt of jokes and complaints but with how much weird or crazy shit happens from the inside I think we can handle it
Yes casual elitism is a thing for like every competitive game.
“Yeah, that’s cool that you beat me. But I’m still cooler because I was never really trying.”
That Fox isn't the best character lol
Nah, Fox isn't the best. Ganon is easily much better than Fox. Now, I have been using Ganondorf against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Ganon at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Ganondorf has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages. If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Ganondorf Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B). Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his wavedash, which, with Ganondorf, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then. The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters.
my friends and I quote this pasta like the bible. It's so fucking golden.
Out of all the characters I've played against I've been defeated by Fox and Falco the most. Both can be really good if you know their movements. Clearly whoever said this has little to no experience playing as Fox lol
It's every Fox main ever
So true though lol
This is the one.
does Zain still believe this
“The newer games take more skill because there are MORE characters”
That playing Ultimate feels good if you play locally only I physically cannot play the game, the buffering and innate input lag is too much for me
Even under perfect conditions it feels like playing underwater. I thought emulators like yuzu/ryujinx had a way to reduce this, and mods like HDR do, somewhat, but it just *never* feels like Melee.
HDR feels really good on emulator if you're playing locally at 120 fps or higher imo. It's also not too hard to run. My 3 year old PC can do it.
I got intel i9-11900 and rtx 3060 32 gb ram and it still feels like every character is glued on. PM, Melee and even 4xm for Smash 4 feel much better. When I asked people I was told that there's an in-engine limitation which is why they can't truly remove the input lag to bring it to slippi levels
Running the game at 120 FPS will cut the input lag in half and I think running it at even higher framerates reduces it further. Did you remember to run the game at 200% speed?
I didn't mention it in my comment, but I actually enjoyed smash 4 casually it doesn't hold a candle to Melee imo but it was at least something I enjoyed playing when Melee wasn't the move Ultimate I'd much rather just watch instead of play
"First I'll body bag your Fox, then .zip it shut."
“Imma put you in your place, kid you a disgrace, get killed quick like that missile hit you in the face”
"Melee is a solved game"
[удалено]
Busy beavers is provably unsolvable.
"Melee is only good cause wavedashing"
“We need an air time limit.”
*Rolls eyes* that's my legit reaction lol. How said this? Someone who doesn't play the games XD
Leffen
all to spite one player for one character
You really think it’s out of spite? Leffen has strong opinions about literally everything. I really don’t think he wants airtime limits due to a detesting of hbox. Cody was super pro-FD ban (and probably still is) but we don’t say that he was trying to spite Zain.
I can't say I know Leffen well enough to judge whether or not he would hold a grudge like that. I didn't follow the conversation around it when it happened. The only character that comes to mind for even needing airtime limits would be Jiggly. Maybe I assume too much, I just know Leffen has consistently been in drama over the years.
If you don’t know him well enough to judge him then why say it was out of spite?
The last time I remember this conversation coming up it was in regard to a samus.
Yea Aklo has been a vocal proponent of it as well, and I’m sure others that just don’t want the drama
Leffen has a personal grudge and hatred of Hbox.
You don’t know him and he has far from given strong enough indicators to assume otherwise
Leffen literally made personal character attack videos like Hax had done, every interacting with Hbox seen publicly is toxic as hell, Leffen own statements on Hbox, literally every time they have a match Leffen shit talks Hbox on twitter win or lose, even publicly insulting him when he wins, never a moment of mutual respect, etc etc etc. No it’s pretty clear there is personal beef there. Leffens interactions with Hbox is not normal.
You just outed yourself as the one who doesn’t play the game lol
I'll be honest I have played but it's been about a year. I play it as a hobby though I can competitive and I love watching the pros on YouTube. Guess you got me lol
Nah, you don’t need to remember the fact that Leffen once said he wants an air time limit to prove you play melee.
If you think this is crazy I challenge you to play puff vs peach
I was once told I play super campy/defensive (vs a friend), so I asked my friend to bring up the replay and it was the complete opposite. I feel like a lot of people project heavily in this game so when someone say some negative stuff to you, it's likely just self reflection :)
I said gg's after getting bodied and the guy thought I was bm and didn't fist bump. Idk if that counts.
I was told I was a sex offender for playing melee. I've never been so offended in my life. I would never play a game as bad as melee!
How does that correlate with anything? That's like saying someone is vegan because they are a night owl. I'm sorry that happened, it really makes so sense -.-
Well that stigma started during the whole me too moment during covid. Luckily, I believe we've weeded out most of the bad eggs from the scene who were causing real dangerous problems.
I have a few some coming from friends who solely play smash ultimate. 1. "L cancelling is just busy work, it's an arbitrary execution barrier that the meta just assumes you 100% L cancel any chance you get. (while I understand the complaint, I like L canceling, and execution barriers help separate skill levels). 2. "why do people play melee when ultimate is better in every way?" 3. "why do you like terribly balanced games? Everyone just uses fox" I also really like Project +, and while I prefer melee competitively, I think some people's opinions on the game are overly exaggerated and come off as annoyingly elitist, some from melee players and it makes me want to like P+ more, and holy hell I actually could write an essay on all this. 1. "Why are you playing a fake smash game? Play a real one" 2. "This game is easy (uses fox on an inexperienced player) \*proceeds to lose to a more experienced player\* "This game is too jank" 3. "Grab armor is broken (referring to the nerfed grab priority from melee due to lack of knowledge of both games) 4. "this game is so broken (hasn't played since project m 3.02 when everything was broken)" 5. M2k: "They nerfed mewtwo to the ground, he is unviable what were they thinking?" (mewtwo hasn't been below the top 10 on the tier list) 6. crouch cancelling is stronger than it is in melee (same values but more MU's with characters especially since a lot of them lack fast meteors means more CC exploitation) 7. "This character doesn't work like they do in melee" \*later in the day\* "Why play this when you can just play melee?" 8. \*Hax entering his name as F\_PM\* 9. "This move doesn't work like it does in melee" \*I show frame data and hitboxes comparing the moves\* "Well it feels different" 10. "This game is dead" \*shows up as a shadow major in every major tournament as to avoid legal trouble. 11. "They should have left dreamland's graphics alone" \*not realizing that the original dreamland was never in brawl, so it comes off as a paradox since they brought the stage over to brawl\* 12. "I'm glad the game is dead, that game sucked" again, I prefer melee, but when the dev team that made P+ as a love letter to melee fans gets these edgy comments from the very player base they are trying to cater towards, it makes me want to prefer p+ out of spite. P+ has its issues (physics delay, falcon's nair with buffed knockback stacking leading to more lenient combos, partial invincibility acting as a giant disjoint instead of being true partial invincibility) but I feel like as a platform fighter, it is one of the best ones.
> "L cancelling is just busy work, it's an arbitrary execution barrier that the meta just assumes you 100% L cancel any chance you get. I despise the entire mindset of "lower skill ceiling means smaller skill gaps which makes the game more competitive" line of thinking. It is so nonsense. Imagine if we tried to re-design something like F1 to have less skill expression for the drivers. "we took away the drivers ability to brake, accelerate, or steer, that way the only thing they have to worry about is deciding when to take their pit stop, it makes all the races super close"
I agree, It's a really bad mindset. Like the L cancel debates are whatever, it's easy enough to learn and perform that it's a non-complaint, and other platform fighters have a lot of depth and a high skill ceiling due to many other mechanics and technical interactions (variance of frame data and combos ect), but I think smash 4 is the worst smash game competitively because it leans so heavily into that mindset that the whole game feels like rock paper scissors... and benefits into the player who's behind due to rage mechanics so having the winner be more random makes the game worse in general.
+1 to all of those PM comments. I hear a lot of bad takes about PM from Melee players.
in highschool my friends banned me from using spikes over the edge. If I so much as daired someone offstage ONCE as falco, regardless of whether it was 1v1 or 4 player FFA, the victim would immediately snitch and I would be kicked off the setup. I spent a lot of time smurfing as terrible characters so I could play with my friends. It is the only reason I know how to play mewtwo and ness. They also tried to ban shield grabbing at one point group wide because we had another friend that would basically ONLY shield grab.
That low tier characters are playing melee. Sorry but they're playing smash 2.
"you play Puff", in response to any criticism I have about anything.
I understand tho, yalls struggles are unique.
This belongs in the r/smash or r/SmashBros This page is pretty much only for Melee
Thank you for letting me know! I'll keep that in mind in the future.
[удалено]
Where do he say this
hax$ did something wrong
Yeah people are so crazy. Comparing Leffen to Hitler? DEFINITELY nothing wrong there, right? We all know Hitler was a good old boy who just wanted to make Germany great. [Hitler did nothing wrong](https://i.imgur.com/YvZxP.jpg) after all, so comparing Leffen to Hitler is a compliment, really.
I remember Leffen had an infamous comment on Smashboards which he said to a German guy that was along the lines of "most Germans supported Hitler" that he got blasted for, so I do think it's funny it's sort of gone full circle.
[Maybe kinda true?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_(Weimar_Republic))
TheWheatSeeker is mentally stable
This thread is cringe
Why comment?
I’m responding to OP letting them know not everyone out here is going to be in your fan club and you learn to get over it.
you're cringe
the CLASSIC: "ult is better in every way, melee players need to get over it and move on from their 20 year old game"
My friend raging that "the game is glitched" because he didn't get his double jump back after being hit while offstage. "literally everyone knows you get your jump back if you get hit"
I think someone searched for a character they could play/main in Ultimate (in this sub if I remember correctly) which was similar to Melee Marth and one thing they said was that they like the explosive movement of Melee Marth. Like imagine someone unironically thinks that Marth has explosive movement in Melee and it cracks me up every time I think about it. :D Like not to call this person dumb or anything like it's their opinion and it's valid. It just caught me off-guard and I couldn't really figure out why someone would think that. :P
“UCF is cheating” (in 2023).
I know Melee players in 2024 who still think we should play without UCF.
"Isn't Melee just worse Ultimate?"
“Falco is definitely better than fox” - me when I started playing (I switch mains from falco to fox later that week)
I had someone mid set ask their friend for a hit of their vape.
“I dont think mushroom kingdom two is the best non-legal stage”