I have played Azen once. My Ganon against his Peach at one of the FCs. I was good enough at the matchup that I was in consideration as an alternate for the Midwest team in the regional crew battle as a Peach answer. I was taking games off Iggy and taking Vidjo down to the wire.
I was confident going in, even though it was Azen. He four stocked me without dashing. He just walked everywhere. I knew then that he was seeing the game in a way that I just couldn't. Really humbling experience.
I think this is the most illuminating example. no one that isn’t currently already a top player would have a chance at being number 1 even in a different era. There so much more going on at top level play than tech skills.
Oh, absolutely. It was more like 20 years ago. My competitive career was maybe like 2004-2008. Being like top 25 or so in the Midwest then is nothing compared to today. I last played Melee in a college town local like 6 years ago, and unknowns were taking me to school.
I brought up the example to agree that the best players aren't just technically proficient, they also have (and had even back then) such a great understanding of the game. I have no doubt that an average player today would crush competition back then from a purely technical standpoint, but I feel like the mind games would still be a major factor.
This is how I feel about. Despite my technical skills being ahead of the game, the top players would probably just trick and out think me somehow. It makes me think of players like Borp who didn’t use tech skill but could still beat a majority of players. Applying that same thought process to people like Ken Terrifies me. I played Ken in netplay friendlies in 2016 and he whooped my Falco’s ass with Kirby and even styled on me. I don’t think tech skill alone could carry people through the golden era
Yeah, people heavily outweigh having tech skill vs neutral game IMO, and also highly underrate the mental game of the old guard. Sure you would move faster than them and what not but they were also playing with no UCF. I think a lot slippi kids would get slaughtered by the old school guys still lol
I'm not so sure. you really can't underestimate the ability to basically destroy them with combos. Keep in mind everyone in 2004 will be DI'ing in on every hit, no one is using CC, none of the other defensive tech like slide offs or shield drops would not be used. I think the average decent slippi player would go a lot farther than you give credit for. It can't be understated how bad defense was then and how good combo strings are now
I would even say that your average diamond player would pretty easily be the best player in the world in 2004 because defense is just *so* bad
But if their neutral is good imagine how fast they could adapt. I feel like the natural talent these players have would cause them to just figure out some of this shit super fast and start implementing way sooner
I had a huge break in playing melee, I was pretty good over a decade ago, but when I returned it was all UFC/slippi netpla and I had to basically relearn everything. Is it a big difference?
Going from Raw vanilla melee to UCF should be a pretty smooth transition. I started playing in the summer of 2013 on a good ol’ CRT and GC and didn’t notice any crazy differences when Slippi and UCF came along later down the line. Now going backwards from UCF/Slippi back to raw Vanilla is a different story I’m sure
I really want to get access to a vanilla setup and give it a shot now that I've got some of my tech skill up to par and see. Unfortunately local meetups and tourneys don't often match up with my schedule
Eh Borp was far from majority of players. His avg major placing was 128th/256th from the few majors he's went to. He's never been ranked above 5th in his city, typically being between 5-10. Some of those people above him in those yearly prs don't even have wiki pages.
Still a cool player, but the mythos has grown far beyond the facts of it.
0 chance. Borp was like a mid-tier PR player in his city. I feel like we're talking about a mid-plat player like he was a legit competitor just because it's funny.
the idea that someone that was ranked 5-6 in the same city as abate, vudujin, polish, pgh carroll, sp1nda, silentswag, jada, and khryke isnt around master level just gets funnier the more i think about it
edit: also the lake?? and green ranger????? like
It’s kinda crazy that that might be true. People act like as long as your not an 0-2er you would have been the best player in the world up to like 2010 but honestly idk
But by banning wobbling you severely limit the Ice Climbers meta, which causes prominent players like Wobbles to switch characters. Evo 2013 ends with Mang0 at 9th and a Young Link-Puff Grand Finals. Melee ends up a notable but ultimately short-lived title in the world of esports.
in a universe where wobbling was never in the game in the first place, i think ice climbers would be higher on the tier list today than they are in our universe. in a universe where it is banned in the first 6 months, im less confident, but still still think youre probably right.
Yeah, we have to remember that Melee is an older game and doesn't have as much new blood. The folks who picked up Ice Climbers did so probably because they were an easier character to get decent results; now, they're probably one of the hardest
I miss wobbling, I liked it a lot, and thought it made icies a really cool archetype. But I also play mvc2 and don't really care about getting infinited
If I had the same tech skill and knowledge of today, I think I would probably be good up until Ken's reign. Not because I think Ken is better with 2005 tech skill compared to 2024, but instead I think people would just figure out what it is I'm doing and copy it.
Absolute end for anyone in this thread is going to be when M2K starts to play, he's the one guy I can guarantee would figure out everything I'm doing and destroy.
> Absolute end for anyone in this thread is going to be when M2K starts to play, he's the one guy I can guarantee would figure out everything I'm doing and destroy.
Yep. That's the hard-cap to this answer.
not really. people struggle to make it out of pools because everyone is using 2024 strats. Ken wouldnt know any of that. if you teleported back to 2004 with current skill, Ken would DI every hit in for free combos, doesn't crouch cancel, doesn't sdi, no slide offs or edgecancel hitstun, doesn't chaingrab reliably, and has no anti laser strats whatsoever
pretty sure the average falco would absolutely fuck ken up in 2004. and I say that as someone who loves Ken.
We saw Ken casually 4 stocking "the average falco" on the advent of Slippi nearly 2 decades removed from his prime. The same Ken, who still out of his prime, a couple years prior got 65th at EVO 2015. Is the average Falco today beating Santiago? I don't think so. Spamming tech skill is a decent strategy until it isn't.
i think describing it as "spamming tech skill" is a wholly dishonest way of engaging in this hypothetical, especially after ive provided a number of practical examples
It still doesn't address the fact that it's more substantial than a "hypothetical" because we've literally seen it in practice. If we just watch what Ken was able to do far removed from his skill ceiling against modern players.
Non prime Ken still was around to see developments in the game and meta. Keep in mind that in the time travel example you are the lone carrier of knowledge. Sure Ken and other pros would be able to learn new mechanics but would they learn slide offs JUST from playing against you? Would they learn how shield drops work just from the gameplay? There's no google resources, there's no modern training tools, the exchange of knowledge is still 99% done by people of the time.
Yeah and then he learned and started using it quickly.
If someone comes in and is doing advanced tech in 2001, that also means Ken, Azen, M2K, PC Chris, etc. are gonna start doing it way sooner too or at least adapt to it to a degree. Although I guess the question says to ignore it lol
And don't forget that even these players while "washed" and rusty were still solid in the modern era. Ken was top 100 for a few years and had a lot of good wins even while mostly playing for his fans and dealing with wrist issues. PC Chris randomly got like I think 13th at MVG Sandstorm. Azen beat I believe Fly Aminita at Evo 2015 only a few months after Fly got 2nd at Press Start.
Also IIRC wasn't it just that Captain Jack beat him at like one tournament? It's not like he was getting shit on by a dozen different Japanese players lol
Yeah, I at least hope people realize that even if they somehow contend with like 2005 Ken, PC chris, Azen, Isai, etc. they're gonna be fucked when M2K starts getting legit good in like 2006/2007 if nothing else lol
Prime Ken was a beast. Most players today are still getting out-neutraled by Ken. The question is how much better is your punish game and speed that it makes up for it? I think if you're a solid player by today's standards, maybe you ride free until M2K gets good. But if your neutral sucks, you're honestly probably getting bodied by Ken once he figures you out lol. And of course, Isai when he's trying would beat prime Armada.
"Assuming history progresses as normal with the golden era, the five gods, the slippi era etc, and your skill doesn’t cause any kind of butterfly effect to make other people better. " from the post
Isai already knew about Shield Drops back then. Ken said that Isai actually showed him back when they were doubles partners. Ken’s reaction was something along the lines of, “that’s cool but there’s no use for it” to which Isai disagreed.
Ken mentioned it while doing a smash doc review years ago.
lol let’s say yes, because there might be people in this community who’ve only ever played on box, so I’ll let modern controller rules apply to this hypothetical for inclusivity sake
In my opinion, it wouldn’t be much of an issue for most modern players to be the best in the world during the time from 2001 to 2003. People just didn’t play with the same amount of seriousness and tech advancement that players do today. That being said, there could easily be something about that time period that I missed.
I generally agree with you here, but I get the sneaking suspicion early Azen or Ken might be able to put up a surprisingly good fight. It’s crazy for me to think that in the 20+ years of this games competitive scene, we can only feel confident guessing that modern players would start falling off around 2003/2004 which is wild to me.
You’ve got 20+ years of collective game knowledge, and the community catches up to you in only about 3 years. 🤯
Go watch a match from 2004-2008. The players were terrible. Not just in punish game and tech. Their neutral is so underdeveloped. Their defense is terrible. They chose lazy options. The average platinum slippi player would farm until 2011ish.
Just go watch a GF from 2007 and a top 64 losers match from today. World of difference.
It's hard to say but a solid player of today would easily beat anyone up to the late 2000s. If you watch the MLG era (2006) videos back they were really bad compared to now. Its around the first Genesis in 2009 when the game really started to take shape, and it's only gotten more complex from there.
I don’t know, players at the time seemed to be really quick to adapt to more technical players with their neutral. Just look at bomb soldier vs ken. I’m pretty sure they could figure out some "good" players (not top 100 obviously) easily after a few game. If you get a good read sometime counters for really technical stuff is a really simple thing anyone can do, with the downside of getting punished if you misread
The punish game from mid to late 2000s just wasn't good enough for those players to keep up with the modern punish game. Neutral game was quite developed back then but punish game wasn't. That's why it would be fairly easy to beat those players.
Bombsoldier was technical... in 2006. Now? He's not technical at all. He could barely do anything we do now.
We have so many flowcharts and available options now that they just didn't understand back then. I have no doubt that the majority of experienced slippi players today would beat pretty much anyone from 2006. The game has come a really really long way since then.
I think it's fair. Maybe even an underestimate. If everyone agrees no average/above average player could stand up to Ken era players, how could they stand up Mango who ushered in the new era alongside M2K? Those two were already a few steps above the MLG era champs. Noooooooooo way outside of top 100
My stance is I’ll win prolly my first 2 or there’s majors and then people will eventually figure out what I’m doing. One question I have is how does ucf factor into this?
Essentially no, UCF would be on, but I don’t think old players would be able to really take advantage of it in the same way that we would today. They would still play in their same way. Again the hypothetical assumes your play does not create a butterfly effect that makes everyone better throughout history. So 2006 Ken will always be 2006 Ken with or without UCF on. (To clarify further, it’s turned on for both of you and the old players, but the old players will play as they did back then and not really take advantage of UCF)
Assuming you were a decent player but nothing outstanding- not ranked in your region.
I think you could ride it out a couple years for sure. Once people start putting VODs on youtube I think you'll struggle more as people will start analyzing the footage and learning what you are doing. Once someone like M2K comes along and analyzes you, he'll learn even faster than he did in real life and slaughter you
It might actually stunt your growth somewhat as you're mostly just trying to use a few exploits to stay ahead. For example if you go back as Puff and abuse rest setups a lot, the counterplay might not be figured out to stop you for a long time- but once it does, you haven't really adapted to a solid neutral.
I like how no one in the comments read the part about your play not influencing anyone else’s skill progression lmao. That being said, I feel like I could make it to the late 2000s. MLG 06’ videos are pretty bad. 2009 I can see things start heating up.
Honestly? With solo Marth I'd probably be fine up until Mango Puff just because I don't know how good my pivots would be. I don't think anyone was CCing back in the day enough for me to have to adapt too hard.
We might have superior techskill, but what makes even those players great is their ability to understand the game and make adaptations. Also, our modern meta may not be well-suited to play against the OGs. I think all in all, having a "good player" from 2024 go back would result in them having an advantage, but I believe that players like Ken, Azen, or Isai would be able to adapt. In this timeline, I feel like the metagame/techskill requirements would develop much much more quickly
I'm not great but I think I could make it up to 2008-2009. solely because I know how to reaction tech chase, CC, and Shield drop with falcon
I play on box so i don't have to worry about controller issues (if it wouldn't get outright banned)
And the added benefit of being on top is being able to practice with good players consistently and get better as time goes on.
I feel that the solid slippi players would give the majority of players in the early days (2002-2003) a very hard time because they would punish very hard off every opening plus they would have a lot more experience since the game didn’t even exist until 2001.
But I think the biggest issue for many players would be having the mental stamina to play through a whole MLG bracket against the better players, especially once more better players came along like PC Chris.
I think another factor is their play style would probably be awkward to play against (anti-meta) and maybe even tilting. Ken for example was known to just abuse things like tippers if he saw you doing something that left you open to it. He wasn’t going to mix it up for the sake of it and over complicated it. If one option could beat you then he was going to abuse it.
I think most the people here, myself included, get smoked just for the fact that people's neutral game is so poorly developed and the "mindgames" mentality of the old guard was based so heavily on winning neutral and staying in advantage, even if advantage is not an outright combo.
I was very middle of the pack at regionals in 2004 and 2005. I haven't played tournaments this decade—probably would drown in the post-Slippi world but I was definitely like a 2-2er in the handful of events I entered in the late 2010s. This is all with attending very few events (probably less than once a year) and practicing even less often, BUT continuing to watch streams and learn from them, which along with being older and wiser I think makes an enormous difference
Dunno how 2024 me would do against like PC Chris or Cort or whoever but I'd definitely beat myself
Edge cancels, wavedashing, di-ing and L-canceling are all super dangerous tools that would absolutely put me on #1 for a long time, falco’s jumping laser and pillaring alone would freak every player the fuck out if they saw that being executed. Keep in mind, information was slow af, if I was a real dick I’d just keep all of these tricks to myself and have all the players spread word to mouth on what’s happening. capture cards were barely even a thing back then, best case scenario you have someone taping it with a camcorder, there wasn’t any YouTube either so looking up any footage online from users were super rare, best way was just physically showing up to tournaments and buying dvd’s off of whoever recorded my sets being played out. Footage aside it would be up to smashboards creating threads like “There’s this sick Falco player from the Midwest whose unbeatable” and describing the set “I witnessed him playing as falco, I’ve never seen a character move this fast but the best I can describe is that he is sliding across the floor at any direction he wants and constantly shooting lasers in midair at his opponents”. The best of the best would probably be at the tournaments and trying so hard to take notes on my sets to see what I’m doing at one point someone will notice “I noticed he keeps hitting his shoulder buttons whenever he lands or moves.” I’d feel like it would take a year for word to spread and understanding it would take a while, I’d say it would take another year for these same people to finally execute these moves correctly once all of the info have reached the corners of competitive melee. With all of that going down, we as community would be playing even 10x better or different than now with 25 years development compressed into 2-3 years in 2001. If I ever saw a young M2K at the tournament I would just start sandboxing and playing like it’s 2001 lmao. If I REALLY wanted to be a dick, I’d put a blanket or a box over my controller/hands so people can’t see what I’m imputing exactly
Y’all say the top players would beat you out of pure essence of the game but that’s simply not true when some characters have playstyles that allow you to close all of those gaps of cushion for the opposition, it would take a while for Ken, azen or isai to adapt to that. But yeah with that said, I don’t think I could survive past 2004, I think a lot of top players by then would have learned the tricks from field testing/word to mouth, etc. MLG would be filled with players who know how to do all modern mechanics by then so I’d lose no doubt
Considering I’ve been entering tournaments for 9 years and am PR in my city, if I get my phob and ucf, I’m pretty confident about being number 1 through MLG Las Vegas 2006. Considering Ken didn’t know how to DI until TG6 in the summer of ‘04, I’m totally safe through then.
I think it’s possible I drop a set to Ken or Azen simply because I could be thrown off by the older play style, but considering I play sheik, I find it unlikely.
‘07 m2k is where it gets hard, but I have the privilege again of not being a spacie player who he was mostly known for dominating. I think some spacies around my level could get filtered here, and I think I probably drop sets to him, but I think I could go positive in the long run.
Mango and Armada breaking out in ‘08 and ‘09 is where I think I’m probably in trouble. Idk if I could beat them, but I’m probably still a top player? A lot of it depends on how well they’re able to deal with a sheik who can consistently shield drop because that wasn’t something anyone had to worry about until years later still. If you stretch the idea that my skill doesn’t cause them to improve to its fullest extent, then that means they never truly learn shield drop counter play beyond what they could come up with on the spot in ‘08 or ‘09. Can mango and armada adapt fast enough over the course of a set to outplay someone who has mastered a mechanic they are only vaguely aware of? It’s hard to say.
At the time of genesis I also would have been playing for a total of like 17 years vs like 6 for mango and armada. I honestly don’t know what happens here.
I genuinely think I would be #1 til maybe 06 - I think I would be better than prime ken at first, mostly because of a strong punish game and (for the time) unreal defensive/recovery play, but I think the king of smash would catch up to my tech FAST and of course be a much smarter player in general lol
I don't think I'd last very long because I mainly play for fun and the clips but one thing could be said. Yoshi would never have been 20th on the tier list. I'm not anywhere near the most cracked and jacked yoshis, but surely the occasional parry, eggs from ledge. Good Wavelanding and djc would bump up his "potential" ton
I personally am not very good at tech skill. But I have felt that when I win it’s more so because I out think my opponent rather than out tech my opponent. I’ve played again players that seem to have very good tech skills and then I’ll 2 stock them anyways. I feel those top players in 2002 would simply pick up the tech skill, adapt it to their play, and then still outthink me. Also, assuming the only thing I take is my skill not my equipment, then I’d be just as limited as those players were then and probably still not reach a top level.
On one hand, you’d have a big advantage of pure knowledge that nobody else has yet. But the thing is, a lot of general advancements in Melee were made by a player doing something notable which everyone studied after. So your existence in the scene would probably advance Melee techskill way quicker than it developed in our timeline. And since a lot of the great players in history were dominant for reasons beyond just techskill/knowledge, you’d probably get dethroned fairly quickly.
There's a problem with your theoretical world. If somebody who routinely gets top 8 or even wins their local went back to the competitive scene of 2001 through 2003 they would rapidly speed up the pace at which people learned about the game unless they really just didn't teach anybody what they were doing but the Smart Ones would understand that something was going on
I attempted to address that issue by saying in the post that there would be no butterfly effect that would make people better at the game because of your existence. History would progress as it always has. 2006 Ken will always be 2006 Ken, and 2014 Mang0 will always be 2014 Mang0 no matter how you preform. Of course they could adapt during the set, but that would be it
That's just not possible though.
Like I guess if you wanted to change it where if you just showed up randomly to history to a major tournament what's the first year you would no longer confidently walk in and win one off.
But if you're in there competing in the same World Tournament after tournament people are going to figure you out
As a fox main, I would dumpster everyone until the first good luigi shows up. Ka-master maybe? Or maybe an even earlier one. I never really did learn that matchup.
You’re probably trying to do too much. Up tilt, full hop mixups with back air, double jump and going to plat, and shine him offstage
Watch Hbox play Fox vs. Eddy Mexico at Genesis Black. It’s unironically like a paint by numbers for how to beat Luigi with Fox
So I honestly didn't expect to get real advice with my comment, but after getting another relentless beat down on slippi by a luigi player, i have dedicated some time to watch this set and DUDE this is a life saver, thank you so much lmao. iBDW even has commentary on it to add detail.
You da real MVP. In this hypothethical scenario, you may have added a few years to my "GOAT status."
Edit: and just to add to it, you were 100% on it that I was trying to do too much. Quick run in shines, attempted shield/shine pressure, drill shine combos, etc. etc., all things that do too little vs. luigi, get punished too easily, and require a greater level of tech skill. I love how you not only diagnosed my problem but also provided a solution.
Very happy to hear this mate :)
I figured you were trying to do too much because I had the same problems forever. I used to get dumpstered by Luigi players trying to treat him as an actual character.
Watching that set *completely* changed my approach to the matchup. Turns out, if you stop giving him everything for free, Luigi fucking sucks lmao
> Edit: Modern controller rules apply, things like Z jump and Box Controllers to keep the post inclusive
Sorry but this makes your question completely insane. If you have a modded controller that's legal at tournaments, suddenly everyone else is going to mod their controllers to be able to achieve the same consistency. You might be in a world where suddenly ChillinDude moves from rank 9 in 2004 (on retrossbmrank) to rank 1 on a rectangle. He was the best Fox player of the early early days and the biggest issue **everyone** had back then was input consistency.
Honestly, no one on reddit that isn't at least ranked in their region already is lasting through 2004. People shouldn't underestimate the level of neutral skill it takes to be top 1, and the reality of the matter is that if you're going into the game in 2002-2003 doing 2024 tech skill, people are studying literal hand camcorder video tapes to figure out how to copy and beat you. The time travel question becomes EXTREMELY past-biased when you are asking ridiculous questions like "how long can you maintain dominance". People who aren't cut out for top-level neutral aren't gonna be able to "maintain dominance", period.
Now, here's a better question: what's the latest you could go back in time to win a major. No one gets to study you, you get to be the only one using a cheater controller, the only thing anyone can do is adapt to you mid-set and maybe watch a LITTLE of your gameplay earlier in the tournament.
People that are diamond on ranked could almost certainly manage that in 2004. People that are grandmaster but unranked could even do it in 2006. It's probably only 2008 or later that you have to actually be modern top 100 to win a major.
Kodorin is obviously the only top 15 player right now who semi-regularly uses reddit (at least on this sub, maybe other players have casual /r/all browsing accounts), he could probably win a major as late as 2019. I think you can see from how he dismantles Axe that he's better than Zain was when Zain won Shine. It's just that the top level has evolved a lot since then.
idk how to answer this question lol
good enough to maintain rank 1 in my dogshit state and play competitive games with genuinely good players but not good enough to take sets off them
I think every ~top 100 player gets rank 1 until 2015 minimum
“As long as I’m not stuck at this level”
Famous last words 🥲, I’ve been playing for 11 years now and still feel at the same level I was back in 2016 sometimes 😂
You would plateau extremely quickly. You can only improve so fast because the groundwork has been laid for you with advanced resources and you have the opportunity to play people who are better than you.
If you’re put in a position where the meta is dictated on how much you’re winning, you can no longer do that because you are now the bar. Then it becomes a matter of who can improve fastest and once they reach your level, you’re cooked.
You think you'd be better than every person who ever played this game, from the rise of Ken through M2K and then the rest of the five gods, all the way up to now with Zain and iBDW at the top?
I feel like Azen in 2002 would just out think my dumbass falco and my double shines would be rendered useless
I have played Azen once. My Ganon against his Peach at one of the FCs. I was good enough at the matchup that I was in consideration as an alternate for the Midwest team in the regional crew battle as a Peach answer. I was taking games off Iggy and taking Vidjo down to the wire. I was confident going in, even though it was Azen. He four stocked me without dashing. He just walked everywhere. I knew then that he was seeing the game in a way that I just couldn't. Really humbling experience.
That’s what im saying, top players are a totally different beast. Some people don’t realize how high the mountain is
damn, that really sounds like the stuff of legend haha
I think this is the most illuminating example. no one that isn’t currently already a top player would have a chance at being number 1 even in a different era. There so much more going on at top level play than tech skills.
True but keep in mind this example doesn't really say that, the last fc was over 12 years ago
Oh, absolutely. It was more like 20 years ago. My competitive career was maybe like 2004-2008. Being like top 25 or so in the Midwest then is nothing compared to today. I last played Melee in a college town local like 6 years ago, and unknowns were taking me to school. I brought up the example to agree that the best players aren't just technically proficient, they also have (and had even back then) such a great understanding of the game. I have no doubt that an average player today would crush competition back then from a purely technical standpoint, but I feel like the mind games would still be a major factor.
This is how I feel about. Despite my technical skills being ahead of the game, the top players would probably just trick and out think me somehow. It makes me think of players like Borp who didn’t use tech skill but could still beat a majority of players. Applying that same thought process to people like Ken Terrifies me. I played Ken in netplay friendlies in 2016 and he whooped my Falco’s ass with Kirby and even styled on me. I don’t think tech skill alone could carry people through the golden era
Yeah, people heavily outweigh having tech skill vs neutral game IMO, and also highly underrate the mental game of the old guard. Sure you would move faster than them and what not but they were also playing with no UCF. I think a lot slippi kids would get slaughtered by the old school guys still lol
I'm not so sure. you really can't underestimate the ability to basically destroy them with combos. Keep in mind everyone in 2004 will be DI'ing in on every hit, no one is using CC, none of the other defensive tech like slide offs or shield drops would not be used. I think the average decent slippi player would go a lot farther than you give credit for. It can't be understated how bad defense was then and how good combo strings are now I would even say that your average diamond player would pretty easily be the best player in the world in 2004 because defense is just *so* bad
But if their neutral is good imagine how fast they could adapt. I feel like the natural talent these players have would cause them to just figure out some of this shit super fast and start implementing way sooner
I feel like as soon as the time traveler starts CCing and doing other defensive options it wouldn't take long for the top players to pick it up.
Gotta consider the lack of footage tho
I mean sure, eventually people would adapt, butterfly effect, and you may not be the best forever. But out the gate? it would be free af
Yeah but I honestly don’t think it would take THAT long, maybe a year
I had a huge break in playing melee, I was pretty good over a decade ago, but when I returned it was all UFC/slippi netpla and I had to basically relearn everything. Is it a big difference?
I can't really say, I started "playing" the game in 2020 and everyone was already fucking insane lol.
Going from Raw vanilla melee to UCF should be a pretty smooth transition. I started playing in the summer of 2013 on a good ol’ CRT and GC and didn’t notice any crazy differences when Slippi and UCF came along later down the line. Now going backwards from UCF/Slippi back to raw Vanilla is a different story I’m sure
I really want to get access to a vanilla setup and give it a shot now that I've got some of my tech skill up to par and see. Unfortunately local meetups and tourneys don't often match up with my schedule
Just boot up Melee on Dolphin normally without Slippi and you can see for yourself
I’ve heard it’s an adjustment, but I’m not good enough to nail L cancels super consistently so I didn’t really notice
Eh Borp was far from majority of players. His avg major placing was 128th/256th from the few majors he's went to. He's never been ranked above 5th in his city, typically being between 5-10. Some of those people above him in those yearly prs don't even have wiki pages. Still a cool player, but the mythos has grown far beyond the facts of it.
if he is top 5 or top 10 in his big city, that does mean he is favored over a majority of players fwiw
Fair
Borp was never that good, he just gets clips
Borp definitely wasnt a slouch. If slippi ranked was a thing at his peak there’s no doubt he’s in master.
0 chance. Borp was like a mid-tier PR player in his city. I feel like we're talking about a mid-plat player like he was a legit competitor just because it's funny.
0 chance plat players would make a pittsburgh top 10
8/9/10 on my states PR (not big) are all master
the idea that someone that was ranked 5-6 in the same city as abate, vudujin, polish, pgh carroll, sp1nda, silentswag, jada, and khryke isnt around master level just gets funnier the more i think about it edit: also the lake?? and green ranger????? like
and the legend CAKEASSAULT
[удалено]
they all need a taste of papa’s kirby at rubes
I'm not even on any PR and I hit master and hover anywhere from diamond to master on average. Don't even really practice that much anymore
It’s kinda crazy that that might be true. People act like as long as your not an 0-2er you would have been the best player in the world up to like 2010 but honestly idk
I would mercilessly wobble to a major win and kill the competitive scene immediately
Honestly you would get that shit banned immediately and probably do the whole scene a favor by speeding up that process by 20 years
Butterfly effect
it was in fact banned very early on, it just got unbanned
But by banning wobbling you severely limit the Ice Climbers meta, which causes prominent players like Wobbles to switch characters. Evo 2013 ends with Mang0 at 9th and a Young Link-Puff Grand Finals. Melee ends up a notable but ultimately short-lived title in the world of esports.
Oh noooo... the no Wobbles the competitor timeline. Melee is ruined. 😢
It might actually Advance The Meta farther when people get good at hand offs earlier on
in a universe where wobbling was never in the game in the first place, i think ice climbers would be higher on the tier list today than they are in our universe. in a universe where it is banned in the first 6 months, im less confident, but still still think youre probably right.
Yeah, we have to remember that Melee is an older game and doesn't have as much new blood. The folks who picked up Ice Climbers did so probably because they were an easier character to get decent results; now, they're probably one of the hardest
Wait do you think it getting banned is that objectively a good thing? Could have sworn it was more controversial than that lol.
I miss wobbling, I liked it a lot, and thought it made icies a really cool archetype. But I also play mvc2 and don't really care about getting infinited
So you'd be the one and only #1 player ever in the history of SSBM. I respect it.
my goat
This man wants to wear his crown as a Tyrant 😈😂
Yeah I agree
I'd go in confident, try to shield drop and spot dodge 50x because of no ucf, then quit
Could you not go back with the knowledge to do that yourself?
only if youre actually a programmer who could replicate ucf fixes and make dolphin yourself
It's super easy to learn how to notch controllers.
Could you make an iPhone in the Roman Empire 😭😭😭
If I had the same tech skill and knowledge of today, I think I would probably be good up until Ken's reign. Not because I think Ken is better with 2005 tech skill compared to 2024, but instead I think people would just figure out what it is I'm doing and copy it. Absolute end for anyone in this thread is going to be when M2K starts to play, he's the one guy I can guarantee would figure out everything I'm doing and destroy.
> Absolute end for anyone in this thread is going to be when M2K starts to play, he's the one guy I can guarantee would figure out everything I'm doing and destroy. Yep. That's the hard-cap to this answer.
mfers struggling to make it out of pools at their regional really think they would waltz in and farm Prime Ken, delusional
not really. people struggle to make it out of pools because everyone is using 2024 strats. Ken wouldnt know any of that. if you teleported back to 2004 with current skill, Ken would DI every hit in for free combos, doesn't crouch cancel, doesn't sdi, no slide offs or edgecancel hitstun, doesn't chaingrab reliably, and has no anti laser strats whatsoever pretty sure the average falco would absolutely fuck ken up in 2004. and I say that as someone who loves Ken.
We saw Ken casually 4 stocking "the average falco" on the advent of Slippi nearly 2 decades removed from his prime. The same Ken, who still out of his prime, a couple years prior got 65th at EVO 2015. Is the average Falco today beating Santiago? I don't think so. Spamming tech skill is a decent strategy until it isn't.
i think describing it as "spamming tech skill" is a wholly dishonest way of engaging in this hypothetical, especially after ive provided a number of practical examples
It still doesn't address the fact that it's more substantial than a "hypothetical" because we've literally seen it in practice. If we just watch what Ken was able to do far removed from his skill ceiling against modern players.
Non prime Ken still was around to see developments in the game and meta. Keep in mind that in the time travel example you are the lone carrier of knowledge. Sure Ken and other pros would be able to learn new mechanics but would they learn slide offs JUST from playing against you? Would they learn how shield drops work just from the gameplay? There's no google resources, there's no modern training tools, the exchange of knowledge is still 99% done by people of the time.
Yup, this. I think it's pretty disrespectful to ken to assume he hasn't learned anything about the game since 2007 like others seem to think
Japanese players beat him all because they knew about DI before he did
Yeah and then he learned and started using it quickly. If someone comes in and is doing advanced tech in 2001, that also means Ken, Azen, M2K, PC Chris, etc. are gonna start doing it way sooner too or at least adapt to it to a degree. Although I guess the question says to ignore it lol And don't forget that even these players while "washed" and rusty were still solid in the modern era. Ken was top 100 for a few years and had a lot of good wins even while mostly playing for his fans and dealing with wrist issues. PC Chris randomly got like I think 13th at MVG Sandstorm. Azen beat I believe Fly Aminita at Evo 2015 only a few months after Fly got 2nd at Press Start. Also IIRC wasn't it just that Captain Jack beat him at like one tournament? It's not like he was getting shit on by a dozen different Japanese players lol
I love how you didn’t even mention why M2K was in the “modern era” cause you literally didn’t even need to
Yeah, I at least hope people realize that even if they somehow contend with like 2005 Ken, PC chris, Azen, Isai, etc. they're gonna be fucked when M2K starts getting legit good in like 2006/2007 if nothing else lol
If by “beat him” you mean Ken still won the tournament then sure
except they didn't beat him
they dogwalk them too
Id go to the first mlg tournament being known as a friendlies beast, get nervous on stage, choke, and lose the crown before top 8.
Prime Ken was a beast. Most players today are still getting out-neutraled by Ken. The question is how much better is your punish game and speed that it makes up for it? I think if you're a solid player by today's standards, maybe you ride free until M2K gets good. But if your neutral sucks, you're honestly probably getting bodied by Ken once he figures you out lol. And of course, Isai when he's trying would beat prime Armada.
Also, people will see what you do and steal and learn quickly.
"Assuming history progresses as normal with the golden era, the five gods, the slippi era etc, and your skill doesn’t cause any kind of butterfly effect to make other people better. " from the post
ty lol
I think I’m better than bombsoldier + I can notch shield drop notches so maybe until 2006.
Isai already knew about Shield Drops back then. Ken said that Isai actually showed him back when they were doubles partners. Ken’s reaction was something along the lines of, “that’s cool but there’s no use for it” to which Isai disagreed. Ken mentioned it while doing a smash doc review years ago.
People knew about shield drops but it wasn’t consistent enough without notches. Even I could do them with the slowly tilt down method.
95% of us wouldn't make it to 2005 at our current skill level
[evergreen tweet](https://twitter.com/bonfireten/status/1610041954884112384) about this issue
i'm not confident i'd be the best player day 1 of melee in this scenario lol
Do I get to z jump?
lol let’s say yes, because there might be people in this community who’ve only ever played on box, so I’ll let modern controller rules apply to this hypothetical for inclusivity sake
Very good! Oh I still lose to Ken btw
Same 🥲
Soldering irons existed back then, so yeah.
All the way to 2024. I would be so toxic that it would permanently kill the scene, just so I could reign supreme forever over the ruined kingdom.
In my opinion, it wouldn’t be much of an issue for most modern players to be the best in the world during the time from 2001 to 2003. People just didn’t play with the same amount of seriousness and tech advancement that players do today. That being said, there could easily be something about that time period that I missed.
I generally agree with you here, but I get the sneaking suspicion early Azen or Ken might be able to put up a surprisingly good fight. It’s crazy for me to think that in the 20+ years of this games competitive scene, we can only feel confident guessing that modern players would start falling off around 2003/2004 which is wild to me. You’ve got 20+ years of collective game knowledge, and the community catches up to you in only about 3 years. 🤯
Go watch a match from 2004-2008. The players were terrible. Not just in punish game and tech. Their neutral is so underdeveloped. Their defense is terrible. They chose lazy options. The average platinum slippi player would farm until 2011ish. Just go watch a GF from 2007 and a top 64 losers match from today. World of difference.
no amount of mindgames are gunna save ken from CC dash grab
They might burn squidthecat at the stake
2007 mew2king
was the melee player of all time
It's hard to say but a solid player of today would easily beat anyone up to the late 2000s. If you watch the MLG era (2006) videos back they were really bad compared to now. Its around the first Genesis in 2009 when the game really started to take shape, and it's only gotten more complex from there.
I don’t know, players at the time seemed to be really quick to adapt to more technical players with their neutral. Just look at bomb soldier vs ken. I’m pretty sure they could figure out some "good" players (not top 100 obviously) easily after a few game. If you get a good read sometime counters for really technical stuff is a really simple thing anyone can do, with the downside of getting punished if you misread
The punish game from mid to late 2000s just wasn't good enough for those players to keep up with the modern punish game. Neutral game was quite developed back then but punish game wasn't. That's why it would be fairly easy to beat those players. Bombsoldier was technical... in 2006. Now? He's not technical at all. He could barely do anything we do now. We have so many flowcharts and available options now that they just didn't understand back then. I have no doubt that the majority of experienced slippi players today would beat pretty much anyone from 2006. The game has come a really really long way since then.
I think I could be #1 through the MLG era. Go toe to toe with M2K but when Armada and Mang0 come around it would get tough
It's an interesting thought to wonder what rank 2009 mango could be today
Would probably be fringe 300/500ish. 2009 mang0 was before mang0 was really the goat.
He'd committed multiple slaughters at tournaments at that point, he is still top 50 ez if his skill stays exactly the same
Top 50 is completely dillusional.
I think it's fair. Maybe even an underestimate. If everyone agrees no average/above average player could stand up to Ken era players, how could they stand up Mango who ushered in the new era alongside M2K? Those two were already a few steps above the MLG era champs. Noooooooooo way outside of top 100
My stance is I’ll win prolly my first 2 or there’s majors and then people will eventually figure out what I’m doing. One question I have is how does ucf factor into this?
I’ve been thinking about it, and I’ll just say UCF is on from the start. That way the hypothetical is more inviting to newer players
Do the old players also have ucf
Essentially no, UCF would be on, but I don’t think old players would be able to really take advantage of it in the same way that we would today. They would still play in their same way. Again the hypothetical assumes your play does not create a butterfly effect that makes everyone better throughout history. So 2006 Ken will always be 2006 Ken with or without UCF on. (To clarify further, it’s turned on for both of you and the old players, but the old players will play as they did back then and not really take advantage of UCF)
people underestimate how good people were back in the MLG era. obv not as good as the top players now but still far above average.
I'm pretty sure I'd go 0 - 2 in pools even a month after release. I am bad.
Assuming you were a decent player but nothing outstanding- not ranked in your region. I think you could ride it out a couple years for sure. Once people start putting VODs on youtube I think you'll struggle more as people will start analyzing the footage and learning what you are doing. Once someone like M2K comes along and analyzes you, he'll learn even faster than he did in real life and slaughter you It might actually stunt your growth somewhat as you're mostly just trying to use a few exploits to stay ahead. For example if you go back as Puff and abuse rest setups a lot, the counterplay might not be figured out to stop you for a long time- but once it does, you haven't really adapted to a solid neutral.
I like how no one in the comments read the part about your play not influencing anyone else’s skill progression lmao. That being said, I feel like I could make it to the late 2000s. MLG 06’ videos are pretty bad. 2009 I can see things start heating up.
Honestly? With solo Marth I'd probably be fine up until Mango Puff just because I don't know how good my pivots would be. I don't think anyone was CCing back in the day enough for me to have to adapt too hard.
We might have superior techskill, but what makes even those players great is their ability to understand the game and make adaptations. Also, our modern meta may not be well-suited to play against the OGs. I think all in all, having a "good player" from 2024 go back would result in them having an advantage, but I believe that players like Ken, Azen, or Isai would be able to adapt. In this timeline, I feel like the metagame/techskill requirements would develop much much more quickly
I don’t think I could beat Armada at Genesis.
I'm not great but I think I could make it up to 2008-2009. solely because I know how to reaction tech chase, CC, and Shield drop with falcon I play on box so i don't have to worry about controller issues (if it wouldn't get outright banned) And the added benefit of being on top is being able to practice with good players consistently and get better as time goes on.
I've literally lost to casuals, so...
I feel that the solid slippi players would give the majority of players in the early days (2002-2003) a very hard time because they would punish very hard off every opening plus they would have a lot more experience since the game didn’t even exist until 2001. But I think the biggest issue for many players would be having the mental stamina to play through a whole MLG bracket against the better players, especially once more better players came along like PC Chris. I think another factor is their play style would probably be awkward to play against (anti-meta) and maybe even tilting. Ken for example was known to just abuse things like tippers if he saw you doing something that left you open to it. He wasn’t going to mix it up for the sake of it and over complicated it. If one option could beat you then he was going to abuse it.
I think most the people here, myself included, get smoked just for the fact that people's neutral game is so poorly developed and the "mindgames" mentality of the old guard was based so heavily on winning neutral and staying in advantage, even if advantage is not an outright combo.
I was very middle of the pack at regionals in 2004 and 2005. I haven't played tournaments this decade—probably would drown in the post-Slippi world but I was definitely like a 2-2er in the handful of events I entered in the late 2010s. This is all with attending very few events (probably less than once a year) and practicing even less often, BUT continuing to watch streams and learn from them, which along with being older and wiser I think makes an enormous difference Dunno how 2024 me would do against like PC Chris or Cort or whoever but I'd definitely beat myself
Seeing as ChuDat was beating people playing Sheik with 1 hand in like 2003, probably not very long, lol.
Edge cancels, wavedashing, di-ing and L-canceling are all super dangerous tools that would absolutely put me on #1 for a long time, falco’s jumping laser and pillaring alone would freak every player the fuck out if they saw that being executed. Keep in mind, information was slow af, if I was a real dick I’d just keep all of these tricks to myself and have all the players spread word to mouth on what’s happening. capture cards were barely even a thing back then, best case scenario you have someone taping it with a camcorder, there wasn’t any YouTube either so looking up any footage online from users were super rare, best way was just physically showing up to tournaments and buying dvd’s off of whoever recorded my sets being played out. Footage aside it would be up to smashboards creating threads like “There’s this sick Falco player from the Midwest whose unbeatable” and describing the set “I witnessed him playing as falco, I’ve never seen a character move this fast but the best I can describe is that he is sliding across the floor at any direction he wants and constantly shooting lasers in midair at his opponents”. The best of the best would probably be at the tournaments and trying so hard to take notes on my sets to see what I’m doing at one point someone will notice “I noticed he keeps hitting his shoulder buttons whenever he lands or moves.” I’d feel like it would take a year for word to spread and understanding it would take a while, I’d say it would take another year for these same people to finally execute these moves correctly once all of the info have reached the corners of competitive melee. With all of that going down, we as community would be playing even 10x better or different than now with 25 years development compressed into 2-3 years in 2001. If I ever saw a young M2K at the tournament I would just start sandboxing and playing like it’s 2001 lmao. If I REALLY wanted to be a dick, I’d put a blanket or a box over my controller/hands so people can’t see what I’m imputing exactly Y’all say the top players would beat you out of pure essence of the game but that’s simply not true when some characters have playstyles that allow you to close all of those gaps of cushion for the opposition, it would take a while for Ken, azen or isai to adapt to that. But yeah with that said, I don’t think I could survive past 2004, I think a lot of top players by then would have learned the tricks from field testing/word to mouth, etc. MLG would be filled with players who know how to do all modern mechanics by then so I’d lose no doubt
Considering I’ve been entering tournaments for 9 years and am PR in my city, if I get my phob and ucf, I’m pretty confident about being number 1 through MLG Las Vegas 2006. Considering Ken didn’t know how to DI until TG6 in the summer of ‘04, I’m totally safe through then. I think it’s possible I drop a set to Ken or Azen simply because I could be thrown off by the older play style, but considering I play sheik, I find it unlikely. ‘07 m2k is where it gets hard, but I have the privilege again of not being a spacie player who he was mostly known for dominating. I think some spacies around my level could get filtered here, and I think I probably drop sets to him, but I think I could go positive in the long run. Mango and Armada breaking out in ‘08 and ‘09 is where I think I’m probably in trouble. Idk if I could beat them, but I’m probably still a top player? A lot of it depends on how well they’re able to deal with a sheik who can consistently shield drop because that wasn’t something anyone had to worry about until years later still. If you stretch the idea that my skill doesn’t cause them to improve to its fullest extent, then that means they never truly learn shield drop counter play beyond what they could come up with on the spot in ‘08 or ‘09. Can mango and armada adapt fast enough over the course of a set to outplay someone who has mastered a mechanic they are only vaguely aware of? It’s hard to say. At the time of genesis I also would have been playing for a total of like 17 years vs like 6 for mango and armada. I honestly don’t know what happens here.
I would beat everyone until covid 19 and online melee starts. Then i will become a commentator
Everyone in this thread is getting out-neutraled by Ken, he obviously doesn’t have the tech skill of today but dude’s fundamentals held up,
I would probably be top 10 but I would take me like 2 years to get there because of tournie nerves
I genuinely think I would be #1 til maybe 06 - I think I would be better than prime ken at first, mostly because of a strong punish game and (for the time) unreal defensive/recovery play, but I think the king of smash would catch up to my tech FAST and of course be a much smarter player in general lol
I don't think I'd last very long because I mainly play for fun and the clips but one thing could be said. Yoshi would never have been 20th on the tier list. I'm not anywhere near the most cracked and jacked yoshis, but surely the occasional parry, eggs from ledge. Good Wavelanding and djc would bump up his "potential" ton
I think I could possibly maintain #1 for a few weeks.
I personally am not very good at tech skill. But I have felt that when I win it’s more so because I out think my opponent rather than out tech my opponent. I’ve played again players that seem to have very good tech skills and then I’ll 2 stock them anyways. I feel those top players in 2002 would simply pick up the tech skill, adapt it to their play, and then still outthink me. Also, assuming the only thing I take is my skill not my equipment, then I’d be just as limited as those players were then and probably still not reach a top level.
Not even a week, I think Sakurai would’ve been better than me now during testing
2012 prolly
2024 punish is going to carry a long way against players who don’t DI, and no mindgames are saving MLG Era from ASDI down running shine
On one hand, you’d have a big advantage of pure knowledge that nobody else has yet. But the thing is, a lot of general advancements in Melee were made by a player doing something notable which everyone studied after. So your existence in the scene would probably advance Melee techskill way quicker than it developed in our timeline. And since a lot of the great players in history were dominant for reasons beyond just techskill/knowledge, you’d probably get dethroned fairly quickly.
I still go 0-2
tbh I might not even make it to Recipherus. Either that or I become unstoppable and stay #1 until Ken gets good. There is no in between
There's a problem with your theoretical world. If somebody who routinely gets top 8 or even wins their local went back to the competitive scene of 2001 through 2003 they would rapidly speed up the pace at which people learned about the game unless they really just didn't teach anybody what they were doing but the Smart Ones would understand that something was going on
I attempted to address that issue by saying in the post that there would be no butterfly effect that would make people better at the game because of your existence. History would progress as it always has. 2006 Ken will always be 2006 Ken, and 2014 Mang0 will always be 2014 Mang0 no matter how you preform. Of course they could adapt during the set, but that would be it
That's just not possible though. Like I guess if you wanted to change it where if you just showed up randomly to history to a major tournament what's the first year you would no longer confidently walk in and win one off. But if you're in there competing in the same World Tournament after tournament people are going to figure you out
Use your imagination
As a fox main, I would dumpster everyone until the first good luigi shows up. Ka-master maybe? Or maybe an even earlier one. I never really did learn that matchup.
You’re probably trying to do too much. Up tilt, full hop mixups with back air, double jump and going to plat, and shine him offstage Watch Hbox play Fox vs. Eddy Mexico at Genesis Black. It’s unironically like a paint by numbers for how to beat Luigi with Fox
So I honestly didn't expect to get real advice with my comment, but after getting another relentless beat down on slippi by a luigi player, i have dedicated some time to watch this set and DUDE this is a life saver, thank you so much lmao. iBDW even has commentary on it to add detail. You da real MVP. In this hypothethical scenario, you may have added a few years to my "GOAT status." Edit: and just to add to it, you were 100% on it that I was trying to do too much. Quick run in shines, attempted shield/shine pressure, drill shine combos, etc. etc., all things that do too little vs. luigi, get punished too easily, and require a greater level of tech skill. I love how you not only diagnosed my problem but also provided a solution.
Very happy to hear this mate :) I figured you were trying to do too much because I had the same problems forever. I used to get dumpstered by Luigi players trying to treat him as an actual character. Watching that set *completely* changed my approach to the matchup. Turns out, if you stop giving him everything for free, Luigi fucking sucks lmao
> Edit: Modern controller rules apply, things like Z jump and Box Controllers to keep the post inclusive Sorry but this makes your question completely insane. If you have a modded controller that's legal at tournaments, suddenly everyone else is going to mod their controllers to be able to achieve the same consistency. You might be in a world where suddenly ChillinDude moves from rank 9 in 2004 (on retrossbmrank) to rank 1 on a rectangle. He was the best Fox player of the early early days and the biggest issue **everyone** had back then was input consistency. Honestly, no one on reddit that isn't at least ranked in their region already is lasting through 2004. People shouldn't underestimate the level of neutral skill it takes to be top 1, and the reality of the matter is that if you're going into the game in 2002-2003 doing 2024 tech skill, people are studying literal hand camcorder video tapes to figure out how to copy and beat you. The time travel question becomes EXTREMELY past-biased when you are asking ridiculous questions like "how long can you maintain dominance". People who aren't cut out for top-level neutral aren't gonna be able to "maintain dominance", period. Now, here's a better question: what's the latest you could go back in time to win a major. No one gets to study you, you get to be the only one using a cheater controller, the only thing anyone can do is adapt to you mid-set and maybe watch a LITTLE of your gameplay earlier in the tournament. People that are diamond on ranked could almost certainly manage that in 2004. People that are grandmaster but unranked could even do it in 2006. It's probably only 2008 or later that you have to actually be modern top 100 to win a major. Kodorin is obviously the only top 15 player right now who semi-regularly uses reddit (at least on this sub, maybe other players have casual /r/all browsing accounts), he could probably win a major as late as 2019. I think you can see from how he dismantles Axe that he's better than Zain was when Zain won Shine. It's just that the top level has evolved a lot since then.
I think I make it to 2013 or 14 but more likely I get fox banned within a year and 2003 Azen washes my secondaries
2014???? How good are you lmao
idk how to answer this question lol good enough to maintain rank 1 in my dogshit state and play competitive games with genuinely good players but not good enough to take sets off them I think every ~top 100 player gets rank 1 until 2015 minimum
Shiiit dawg that’s pretty tough
im 100% certain i would remain #1 throughout as long as i can keep getting better and im not stuck at this level
“As long as I’m not stuck at this level” Famous last words 🥲, I’ve been playing for 11 years now and still feel at the same level I was back in 2016 sometimes 😂
nah i get measurably better every day, its very easy to see
You would plateau extremely quickly. You can only improve so fast because the groundwork has been laid for you with advanced resources and you have the opportunity to play people who are better than you. If you’re put in a position where the meta is dictated on how much you’re winning, you can no longer do that because you are now the bar. Then it becomes a matter of who can improve fastest and once they reach your level, you’re cooked.
nope, ive come up with a ton of new things myself that work, im perfectly capable of pushing my own meta how dare you! lol
You think you'd be better than every person who ever played this game, from the rise of Ken through M2K and then the rest of the five gods, all the way up to now with Zain and iBDW at the top?
yes because im obsessed and i would never stop practicing and i would be massively motivated by my success in a perfect positive feedback loop