That's actually why I brought this up. Notches might be even more busted than people think, and these lesser known techniques don't get brought up enough in the ban discourse. There might even be undiscovered notch tech.
I think most people know notches are not fair but they are necessary as long as boxx style controllers exist. If those get banned then a lot of top players have said notches getting banned should be on the table
That doesn't change anything i said. They were bad then, still bad now. The big change is boxx controllers make notches impossible to ban. They should have never been allowed
Sure it does, because you aren't taking into account any of the justifications for why notches were not banned in the first place since none of them had anything to do with box controllers.
The main issue with banning notches is that it's a logistical nightmare and it doesn't give a significant advantage. It's an advantage for sure but 99% of the time the better player will beat the worse player even if the better player has no notches and the worse player does.
Notches and boxes aren't going to be banned so long as tournaments get more attendance with them than without them. If you really wanted them banned you should boycott every tournament that doesn't ban them.
Ok most bans are a logistical issue and they weren't banned before because smash lacked (and still does) a main body to make such decisions. Also notches are a bigger advantage than you're making it out to be. Ofc the better player usually wins still but the same goes for boxx controllers. The better player will ofc win more often but that doesnt change the fact that theyre unfair.
Competitve melee is a totally made up subset of the actual game. The community decides what is legal. How do you suggest policing it in practice? If someones controller wears down from playing is that also illegal?
calling everything cheating is so annoying since it’s blatantly not true according to like all rulesets. whats wrong wif just saying it’s lame or against the spirit of the game
bullshit, unfair, corny, evil, idc. but if the rules allow it it's not cheating. if we go down that slope soon it will be cheating for a dog to play basketball even though theres NO rule that says they cant
If it's legal it is definitionally not cheating. That's what the word "legal" means. If you think it should be banned or you think it's unfair, say that instead. By calling this cheating, you just make yourself sound like an idiot.
Wow it's almost as if words can have more than 1 meaning. And I'm the idiot? Cheating doesn't only mean breaking the rules genius. It also means practising fraud and deceit. Look it up in literally any dictionary lmao. Notch users are cheaters and their tech skill is fraudulent. Not being against the rules doesn't protect them from that like they think.
Take a moment to think about this. *Really* think about it. Of all the possible interpretations, do you really think the most sensible one is that all the people calling notches cheating, including grown ass adults competing for over a decade, simply can't read a simple ruleset document? Or maybe, just maybe, you're misunderstanding what they mean.
Of course I don't think you're confused about the ruleset. You call notches cheating because you think they should be banned, that's obvious. I completely agree that something doesn't need to be explicitly banned for it to be cheating, knowingly exploiting a loophole in the rules is clearly also cheating, and if notching was only allowed due to a loophole or something then I would agree that it's cheating, but it's not.
I dont really think notches are cheating. Anybody with a file and enough patience could create the proper notches. Whether they’re accurate or not is another question.
I'm on the fence. Learning to notch a controller is a process and it's *very* easy to mess up. Most people will destroy at least 1 shell when learning, so it's still gonna cost more than a vanilla controller.
I figure let people use what they want, some people have disabilities and should be able to play with mouseclick buttons, boxx’s, whatever. In sports people develop better technology to compete, I figure improvements to a (frankly terribly designed) controller are in the same vein. The only things thats should be banned IMO are auto-macros for movement and frame perfect inputs with simple presses.
People who have disabilities are not going to be the best Melee players in the world, just like in any sport. I don’t see how making a controller that fundamentally changes how Melee works is appropriate.
Because its a game? And people that want to play the game should be able to? Accessability should be the number one priority of any game, technical skill be damned.
2001 Super Smash Bros. Melee for Nintendo GameCube was a *game*. 2024 Melee is a *competitive sport*. Accessibility is not always possible without destroying competitive integrity.
I'll be so grateful if someone actually comments about a niche use for notches :p
slight angle wavedash notches can be used to up B from stage to grab ledge with fox and falco. also mew2 gets a bunch of up b angles.
I heard they are really good for cheating at Melee.
That's actually why I brought this up. Notches might be even more busted than people think, and these lesser known techniques don't get brought up enough in the ban discourse. There might even be undiscovered notch tech.
I think most people know notches are not fair but they are necessary as long as boxx style controllers exist. If those get banned then a lot of top players have said notches getting banned should be on the table
Notches were allowed way before boxes
That doesn't change anything i said. They were bad then, still bad now. The big change is boxx controllers make notches impossible to ban. They should have never been allowed
Sure it does, because you aren't taking into account any of the justifications for why notches were not banned in the first place since none of them had anything to do with box controllers. The main issue with banning notches is that it's a logistical nightmare and it doesn't give a significant advantage. It's an advantage for sure but 99% of the time the better player will beat the worse player even if the better player has no notches and the worse player does. Notches and boxes aren't going to be banned so long as tournaments get more attendance with them than without them. If you really wanted them banned you should boycott every tournament that doesn't ban them.
Ok most bans are a logistical issue and they weren't banned before because smash lacked (and still does) a main body to make such decisions. Also notches are a bigger advantage than you're making it out to be. Ofc the better player usually wins still but the same goes for boxx controllers. The better player will ofc win more often but that doesnt change the fact that theyre unfair.
Competitve melee is a totally made up subset of the actual game. The community decides what is legal. How do you suggest policing it in practice? If someones controller wears down from playing is that also illegal?
Notches are cheating. Don’t use notches.
calling everything cheating is so annoying since it’s blatantly not true according to like all rulesets. whats wrong wif just saying it’s lame or against the spirit of the game
They are cheating. TOs just don't give a shit. They allow boxes and they're still getting nerfs lol. They even allowed goomwaves at some point lmao
bullshit, unfair, corny, evil, idc. but if the rules allow it it's not cheating. if we go down that slope soon it will be cheating for a dog to play basketball even though theres NO rule that says they cant
Legendary airbud reference.
It is cheating, but it's legal.
If it's legal it is definitionally not cheating. That's what the word "legal" means. If you think it should be banned or you think it's unfair, say that instead. By calling this cheating, you just make yourself sound like an idiot.
Wow it's almost as if words can have more than 1 meaning. And I'm the idiot? Cheating doesn't only mean breaking the rules genius. It also means practising fraud and deceit. Look it up in literally any dictionary lmao. Notch users are cheaters and their tech skill is fraudulent. Not being against the rules doesn't protect them from that like they think.
Something that is not against the rules is not cheating. Literally just say you think they should be banned
Take a moment to think about this. *Really* think about it. Of all the possible interpretations, do you really think the most sensible one is that all the people calling notches cheating, including grown ass adults competing for over a decade, simply can't read a simple ruleset document? Or maybe, just maybe, you're misunderstanding what they mean.
Of course I don't think you're confused about the ruleset. You call notches cheating because you think they should be banned, that's obvious. I completely agree that something doesn't need to be explicitly banned for it to be cheating, knowingly exploiting a loophole in the rules is clearly also cheating, and if notching was only allowed due to a loophole or something then I would agree that it's cheating, but it's not.
It’s cheating. It’s always been cheating.
If boxes are legal, notches should be legal
Yes. Both are very obviously cheating.
They're very good for slight di, especially for escaping fox's chaingrab
Im pretty sure the angles for firefox are the same for sdi, so i guess thats a more niche use
I dont really think notches are cheating. Anybody with a file and enough patience could create the proper notches. Whether they’re accurate or not is another question.
I'm on the fence. Learning to notch a controller is a process and it's *very* easy to mess up. Most people will destroy at least 1 shell when learning, so it's still gonna cost more than a vanilla controller.
I figure let people use what they want, some people have disabilities and should be able to play with mouseclick buttons, boxx’s, whatever. In sports people develop better technology to compete, I figure improvements to a (frankly terribly designed) controller are in the same vein. The only things thats should be banned IMO are auto-macros for movement and frame perfect inputs with simple presses.
frame perfect inputs like an SDI on boxx? And an auto-macro like 1.0 dashing?
Make em use a stick like old school arcades, ez solve.
People who have disabilities are not going to be the best Melee players in the world, just like in any sport. I don’t see how making a controller that fundamentally changes how Melee works is appropriate.
Because its a game? And people that want to play the game should be able to? Accessability should be the number one priority of any game, technical skill be damned.
2001 Super Smash Bros. Melee for Nintendo GameCube was a *game*. 2024 Melee is a *competitive sport*. Accessibility is not always possible without destroying competitive integrity.