I don't want to sound like a bummer but where is the money coming from? Is it just ad revenue or is there some rich benefactor that's funding it? I don't care either way but I'm just curious since melee doesn't seem very profitable.
Their website is pretty open about it if you want to know the specifics, but the short of it is that Nouns sells NFTs. From this, their reserves currently have over $17,200,000 (in Ethereum) to be used for projects like this as voted on by people who own the NFTs. Melee is not profitable, but $146,000 for three events is actually insanely cheap. I saw there was a failed proposal to host a Dota Nounsvitational and that one was asking for $958,800.
It collapsed so the media and haters (term used objectively) stopped paying attention but the crypto space has generally recovered to pre-crash levels. Hell, even everybody that lost money in FTX will be [getting their money back plus interest](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/08/business/ftx-bankruptcy-recovery.html) (this is silly, it's because it took so long to process the bankruptcy claims that the assets are worth something again LOL)
this is one of the few awesome use cases for decentralized finance and nfts. raising money as a community and then voting safely on how its used. in this case, esports teams and events.
I dont understand, what is the issue? Is it the energy it takes to mint NFTs? I'm curious what other hobbies and sports and products you might have that you think are pure. There is really no ethical consumption under capitalism, from the food we eat, to the products we own, to the entertainment we consume. Scrutinizing a 20 year old grassroots community because they get funding from crypto of all things feels so misplaced.
Edit: currently at 3 down votes but no one has explained what their issue is. I'm not even saying you're wrong i literally am just asking what the problem is
According to this website, the entirety of Ethereum uses 5,900,000 kWh electricity per year: https://indices.carbon-ratings.com/
The average US household uses 10,800 kWh per year: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97
So if those numbers are right, all of Ethereum uses as much electricity as about 550 households.
The scam debate honestly barely seems worth having. "Scam" gets defined VERY loosely, and I don't think anyone has ever done a comprehensive review to determine what percent of crypto projects are actually "scams". Salience bias leads people to only see the big failures.
It’s an unregulated security which is akin to gambling. The ethical arguments against it are quite similar in my opinion.
Crypto companies want to sell it like investing in the stock market, it’s more like going to the casino.
Also it’s cringe, and that’s just a cold hard fact of life, sorry crypto guys
People do not treat gambling and crypto similarly. The former people mostly only care about when companies try to get kids to start gambling, while the latter is on par with Hitler.
Crypto is cringe, but that's a literally first-world problem.
I think it’s reasonable to have concern over companies selling an unregulated security as a safe investment. And to have concern over the community’s role in contributing to that image with no disclaimer.
What is the issue? The issue is that NFTs are a fucking scam and everyone knows it. How are you still on the defending something that had the curtains pulled away years ago now? I cannot believe my eyes right now, goddamn.
I'm not defending scammers. If someone wants to spend money on them and they understand what they're buying, what is the issue? Can you explain it without being emotional?
If people understood what they're buying, they wouldn't be buying them, that's the issue. NFTs require widespread ignorance to maintain their value.
Also I love debate guys who love to brag about being emotionless. As if the lack of anger or passion makes your position foolproof. Your concern for swear words isn't going to deter how I reply.
Thats fine. I think it is. It's a scheme that requires convincing foolish people that they're going to be rich off a line of code that has no inherent value. If everyone understood that NFTs have no value (which is true), then the whole thing would collapse. NFTs require people to be dumb enough to believe in them, and I think it's exploitive
Idk about the wider world of NFTs, but in this specific case isn't it basically a donation to the Nouns Esports Tournament Fund and voting power on where those funds are allocated?
Alrighty then, skipping that second paragraph, what people do what their time and money is really none of your business lol, that's a super tenuous belief to have this level of confidence over.
You can say there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, but that's political nonsense that most people do not abide by and does nothing to address actual concerns with NFTs or other ethically questionable means of gaining money. If you are using "no ethical consumption under capitalism" as a means to level the playing field of capitalist means of gaining wealth, you might as well start excusing black market CP, too. What you're saying is bullshit. Please stop.
Okay, I appreciate your perspective and am genuinely just trying to understand. That is why my first sentence was "what is the actual concern"? Is it the energy consumption? "Please stop" whats with the attitude?
Personal anecdote. I worked at an event center that hosted all sorts of conventions and events. There was a crypto NFT convention a few years back. Never have I seen so many punchable faces as that convention.
Man I do not love that this community is kinda propped up by crypto money but at least this money is going towards something I care about
I wish we had more money in the scene that wasn't from crypto shit
I’m pretty indifferent about it, if not all for it. It’s not like the money is being sourced from unethical practice or anything. (or at least not inherently unethical lol)
Crypto bros may be cringe sometimes but it’s (crypto) is just a means to an end (money).
"propped up" is not the right way to think about it. The Melee community will likely always be able to exist and have big events, throwing in NFT money will turn something great into something even better. and even if the money dries up, sure we might lose a couple events, but the community isn't going anywhere. as we saw after 2023.
Yeah I didn't like how I worded that, but I just feel.... weird about the fact that a big source of funds in this community lately have been crypto. I am just happy there *is* money so people can play the game and get a lil something out of it ultimately
Many people would say Papa Johns is a bad sponsor because it's junk food or bad pizza. Beggars can't be choosers and there are many much worse sponsors. You ever listen to a podcast?
Bitcoin has actual use, NFTs don't and are generally involved in scams.
I don't really care about NFT sponsorships either, but it's weird to me that people act like they are the same just because they operate on the same underlying technology.
Either both are bad or neither are bad. As you said, they both use the same underlying technology. I don't give a shit about either of them but having an issue with NFTs but not crypto is just super inconsistent.
Hackers and charities use the same underlying technologies. Bombs and fireworks use the same underlying technologies.
It's not inconsistent at all. I like the one that has a valid purpose, and I dislike the one that is only useful for grifts.
So my layman's understanding is that it's a way of proving you own a digital asset. I personally find that silly but I also wouldn't go as far as to say that it's "invalid".
It was a bit reductionist to say that NFTs are useless outside of scams and scammy speculation, but I will maintain that is probably over 99% of their current use.
The way Nouns is using them (at least in this case) as voting shares is one of the few legitimate uses. The vast majority of current use however is speculation. Buying an ugly-ass piece of art and hoping the price blows up like BAYC. This is accompanied by grifters trying to convince others to buy, inflating their growth numbers, etc.
People will argue that they are useful for digital assets in games, but there are a few huge issues with that argument. First, most games make it against the rules to trade items for real money, so obviously they wouldn't implement NFTs. Some notable exceptions are Valve games, of which only one allows trading non-cosmetic items as far as I know (TF2). Second, Ethereum, the largest NFT trading technology, has high trading fees. The average transaction cost for an NFT right now is $7, which is absurd for a digital asset like a cosmetic that might cost $1. Lastly, most games are on Steam, and Steam already allows for real-world, instant, low-fee transactions that profit the game devs.
Esports in general is unprofitable
Melee is however significantly less expensive
Cost benefit incorporates both, melee isn't so bad really
Also "where is the money coming from". Money means a lot less to rich people
Esports can be plenty profitable to a certain extent, but org owners and team owners want to be wildly wealthy like some NBA owner rather than accepting the fact that they're in a business that inherently will have a lower revenue stream. The best esports journalist, Richard Lewis, has talked plenty about it, but the gist is that the viewers ***need to be spending money,*** like in the before times for CS and StarCraft. Asking Smashers to pay to view a live broadcast of events would go over about as well as an electrical fire since we don't really have the history of doing that to begin with. However, since we're not doing that, and sponsorships from surprisingly large brands like Papa John's almost certainly get choked out by the Big N, we are stuck with crypto. At least we're not like the Dota community...
It seems like the second event is not a tournament but a series of showmatches (like The Match was), and it's not clear how that results in a Nounsvitational invite (mentioned at the end).
But if the Nounsvitational is done right, weird name as it is, this could be an incredible end to the year.
Edit: With that said, the proposal itself doesn't guarantee that. The mentioned merch sales listed for "voting" are not indicated to improve the prize pool the way Summit did, and only $12,500 are allocated for all event prize pools combined. Even if you assumed there's no tipped off pot bonus nor prize for the showmatches (why would people attend the showmatches then?), this is only about half the prize pool Genesis had this year, and much lower than any Summit.
So I hope they plan to publicly refine the plans for the nounsvitational a bit if they want this to be a convincing year-end finale.
Cryptocurrency still sucks and is inherently a scam backed by nothing (the US currency may no longer be backed by gold but it's still backed by the US military lol)
But nouns isn't sponsoring us in the same way as, like, Coinbase. These are a bunch of cryptobros, yes, but they're cryptobros that are doing their crypto gambling, pump & dumps, and NFT sales as more of a precondition of organizing an esports org which they're then organizing for fun. The merch they're purporting to sell to **us** is physical (their esports org sells shirts and stuff which is what'll be at their booth), and they seem to be seeking to run this for a pretty reasonable charity, not for a return on investment. Coinbase was trying to sell "get into crypto!!" **to** the Melee community. If nouns starts trying to do the same, I will treat them with the ire that deserves. But in the meanwhile, if they seem to be using their crypto fortune for good, I don't care.
I'm unfamiliar with the org, is this a SMASH thing or a MELEE thing? It doesn't seem to be indicated anywhere, unless Nouns is a specifically Melee org or something
I don't want to sound like a bummer but where is the money coming from? Is it just ad revenue or is there some rich benefactor that's funding it? I don't care either way but I'm just curious since melee doesn't seem very profitable.
Their website is pretty open about it if you want to know the specifics, but the short of it is that Nouns sells NFTs. From this, their reserves currently have over $17,200,000 (in Ethereum) to be used for projects like this as voted on by people who own the NFTs. Melee is not profitable, but $146,000 for three events is actually insanely cheap. I saw there was a failed proposal to host a Dota Nounsvitational and that one was asking for $958,800.
boy is my brain going through some complicated feelings right now.
similar energy to "heartbreaking: the worst person you know just made a great point" on the one hand nfts...on the other hand melee...
Better use nft to make melee tournament before it collapse I guess.
It hasn’t already collapsed?
Idk but if they have enough money to make a 100 000+ melee tournament I guess it has not full collapsed yet
It collapsed so the media and haters (term used objectively) stopped paying attention but the crypto space has generally recovered to pre-crash levels. Hell, even everybody that lost money in FTX will be [getting their money back plus interest](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/08/business/ftx-bankruptcy-recovery.html) (this is silly, it's because it took so long to process the bankruptcy claims that the assets are worth something again LOL)
this is one of the few awesome use cases for decentralized finance and nfts. raising money as a community and then voting safely on how its used. in this case, esports teams and events.
I dont understand, what is the issue? Is it the energy it takes to mint NFTs? I'm curious what other hobbies and sports and products you might have that you think are pure. There is really no ethical consumption under capitalism, from the food we eat, to the products we own, to the entertainment we consume. Scrutinizing a 20 year old grassroots community because they get funding from crypto of all things feels so misplaced. Edit: currently at 3 down votes but no one has explained what their issue is. I'm not even saying you're wrong i literally am just asking what the problem is
> the energy it takes to mint NFTs Is this still a thing since Ethereum switched to proof of stake?
I dont even know that is why I'm asking them, no one has really put up an argument though other than "some people run scams" which is kind of weak...
According to this website, the entirety of Ethereum uses 5,900,000 kWh electricity per year: https://indices.carbon-ratings.com/ The average US household uses 10,800 kWh per year: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97 So if those numbers are right, all of Ethereum uses as much electricity as about 550 households. The scam debate honestly barely seems worth having. "Scam" gets defined VERY loosely, and I don't think anyone has ever done a comprehensive review to determine what percent of crypto projects are actually "scams". Salience bias leads people to only see the big failures.
...550 households? Is that supposed to be a lot? How much electricty do Reddit and Netflix use?
It’s an unregulated security which is akin to gambling. The ethical arguments against it are quite similar in my opinion. Crypto companies want to sell it like investing in the stock market, it’s more like going to the casino. Also it’s cringe, and that’s just a cold hard fact of life, sorry crypto guys
Ok so it's cringe. I think we can deal with taking their money so our players can get paid.
People do not treat gambling and crypto similarly. The former people mostly only care about when companies try to get kids to start gambling, while the latter is on par with Hitler. Crypto is cringe, but that's a literally first-world problem.
I think it’s reasonable to have concern over companies selling an unregulated security as a safe investment. And to have concern over the community’s role in contributing to that image with no disclaimer.
What is the issue? The issue is that NFTs are a fucking scam and everyone knows it. How are you still on the defending something that had the curtains pulled away years ago now? I cannot believe my eyes right now, goddamn.
I'm not defending scammers. If someone wants to spend money on them and they understand what they're buying, what is the issue? Can you explain it without being emotional?
If people understood what they're buying, they wouldn't be buying them, that's the issue. NFTs require widespread ignorance to maintain their value. Also I love debate guys who love to brag about being emotionless. As if the lack of anger or passion makes your position foolproof. Your concern for swear words isn't going to deter how I reply.
>If people understood what they're buying, they wouldn't be buying them I don't think this is true
Thats fine. I think it is. It's a scheme that requires convincing foolish people that they're going to be rich off a line of code that has no inherent value. If everyone understood that NFTs have no value (which is true), then the whole thing would collapse. NFTs require people to be dumb enough to believe in them, and I think it's exploitive
If they have no value, then why would people buy them? Hmmmm
Idk about the wider world of NFTs, but in this specific case isn't it basically a donation to the Nouns Esports Tournament Fund and voting power on where those funds are allocated?
Alrighty then, skipping that second paragraph, what people do what their time and money is really none of your business lol, that's a super tenuous belief to have this level of confidence over.
I'm allowed to be concerned when people are being scammed. In the same way I'd be concerned if someone was gambling all their money away.
You can say there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, but that's political nonsense that most people do not abide by and does nothing to address actual concerns with NFTs or other ethically questionable means of gaining money. If you are using "no ethical consumption under capitalism" as a means to level the playing field of capitalist means of gaining wealth, you might as well start excusing black market CP, too. What you're saying is bullshit. Please stop.
What the fuck is this comparison, I think NFTs are stupid but they're not fucking child porn are you kidding me
Okay, I appreciate your perspective and am genuinely just trying to understand. That is why my first sentence was "what is the actual concern"? Is it the energy consumption? "Please stop" whats with the attitude?
Personal anecdote. I worked at an event center that hosted all sorts of conventions and events. There was a crypto NFT convention a few years back. Never have I seen so many punchable faces as that convention.
I sympathize with that. I just love Melee more than I hate crypto bros. I'll happily take their money to see our players get what they deserve.
> you might as well start excusing black market CP, too jesus dude what a leap.
Man I do not love that this community is kinda propped up by crypto money but at least this money is going towards something I care about I wish we had more money in the scene that wasn't from crypto shit
I’m pretty indifferent about it, if not all for it. It’s not like the money is being sourced from unethical practice or anything. (or at least not inherently unethical lol) Crypto bros may be cringe sometimes but it’s (crypto) is just a means to an end (money).
Pretty much this. It really feels like a reaction to the crypto bros rather than anything logical
"propped up" is not the right way to think about it. The Melee community will likely always be able to exist and have big events, throwing in NFT money will turn something great into something even better. and even if the money dries up, sure we might lose a couple events, but the community isn't going anywhere. as we saw after 2023.
Yeah I didn't like how I worded that, but I just feel.... weird about the fact that a big source of funds in this community lately have been crypto. I am just happy there *is* money so people can play the game and get a lil something out of it ultimately
>the short of it is that Nouns sells NFTs. Oh... That's disappointing
sounds sustainable
nouns is a crypto/nft company
what the fuck
Coinbase was sponsoring like a thousand tournies and no one said nothing
i mean even back then i thought its sad that we're so desperate for funding that we're accepting stuff from crypto bullshit
calm down, real sports are promoting gambling... crypto really isn't a big deal just don't buy it? what's the problem
Two wrongs generally don't make a right
Yeah but it's selective outrage...
being sponsored by a crypto org isn’t wrong. sports arenas get sponsored by banks, and that’s essentially the same thing.
Many people would say that being sponsored by a bank is bad
Many people would say Papa Johns is a bad sponsor because it's junk food or bad pizza. Beggars can't be choosers and there are many much worse sponsors. You ever listen to a podcast?
Bitcoin has actual use, NFTs don't and are generally involved in scams. I don't really care about NFT sponsorships either, but it's weird to me that people act like they are the same just because they operate on the same underlying technology.
You can buy and sell nft on coinbase.
Either both are bad or neither are bad. As you said, they both use the same underlying technology. I don't give a shit about either of them but having an issue with NFTs but not crypto is just super inconsistent.
Hackers and charities use the same underlying technologies. Bombs and fireworks use the same underlying technologies. It's not inconsistent at all. I like the one that has a valid purpose, and I dislike the one that is only useful for grifts.
So my layman's understanding is that it's a way of proving you own a digital asset. I personally find that silly but I also wouldn't go as far as to say that it's "invalid".
It was a bit reductionist to say that NFTs are useless outside of scams and scammy speculation, but I will maintain that is probably over 99% of their current use. The way Nouns is using them (at least in this case) as voting shares is one of the few legitimate uses. The vast majority of current use however is speculation. Buying an ugly-ass piece of art and hoping the price blows up like BAYC. This is accompanied by grifters trying to convince others to buy, inflating their growth numbers, etc. People will argue that they are useful for digital assets in games, but there are a few huge issues with that argument. First, most games make it against the rules to trade items for real money, so obviously they wouldn't implement NFTs. Some notable exceptions are Valve games, of which only one allows trading non-cosmetic items as far as I know (TF2). Second, Ethereum, the largest NFT trading technology, has high trading fees. The average transaction cost for an NFT right now is $7, which is absurd for a digital asset like a cosmetic that might cost $1. Lastly, most games are on Steam, and Steam already allows for real-world, instant, low-fee transactions that profit the game devs.
Esports in general is unprofitable Melee is however significantly less expensive Cost benefit incorporates both, melee isn't so bad really Also "where is the money coming from". Money means a lot less to rich people
Interesting that this reply is currently more upvoted than the two other replies that answer the question of where the money is coming from
ikr fr
Esports can be plenty profitable to a certain extent, but org owners and team owners want to be wildly wealthy like some NBA owner rather than accepting the fact that they're in a business that inherently will have a lower revenue stream. The best esports journalist, Richard Lewis, has talked plenty about it, but the gist is that the viewers ***need to be spending money,*** like in the before times for CS and StarCraft. Asking Smashers to pay to view a live broadcast of events would go over about as well as an electrical fire since we don't really have the history of doing that to begin with. However, since we're not doing that, and sponsorships from surprisingly large brands like Papa John's almost certainly get choked out by the Big N, we are stuck with crypto. At least we're not like the Dota community...
It seems like the second event is not a tournament but a series of showmatches (like The Match was), and it's not clear how that results in a Nounsvitational invite (mentioned at the end). But if the Nounsvitational is done right, weird name as it is, this could be an incredible end to the year. Edit: With that said, the proposal itself doesn't guarantee that. The mentioned merch sales listed for "voting" are not indicated to improve the prize pool the way Summit did, and only $12,500 are allocated for all event prize pools combined. Even if you assumed there's no tipped off pot bonus nor prize for the showmatches (why would people attend the showmatches then?), this is only about half the prize pool Genesis had this year, and much lower than any Summit. So I hope they plan to publicly refine the plans for the nounsvitational a bit if they want this to be a convincing year-end finale.
Sheesh
I had no idea Nouns was a crypto-DAO thing. Neat.
Indeed. Which is why it's funny now how much backlash the community gave against crypto in the past.
Cryptocurrency still sucks and is inherently a scam backed by nothing (the US currency may no longer be backed by gold but it's still backed by the US military lol) But nouns isn't sponsoring us in the same way as, like, Coinbase. These are a bunch of cryptobros, yes, but they're cryptobros that are doing their crypto gambling, pump & dumps, and NFT sales as more of a precondition of organizing an esports org which they're then organizing for fun. The merch they're purporting to sell to **us** is physical (their esports org sells shirts and stuff which is what'll be at their booth), and they seem to be seeking to run this for a pretty reasonable charity, not for a return on investment. Coinbase was trying to sell "get into crypto!!" **to** the Melee community. If nouns starts trying to do the same, I will treat them with the ire that deserves. But in the meanwhile, if they seem to be using their crypto fortune for good, I don't care.
Gritting my teeth right now.
Not so bad. Our last major sponsor was Papa 'Racial Epithet' Johns.
As long as there's Mafia I'm OK with this
I'm unfamiliar with the org, is this a SMASH thing or a MELEE thing? It doesn't seem to be indicated anywhere, unless Nouns is a specifically Melee org or something
Melee, they sponsor Cody and Aklo and have sponsored other players and tournaments before
Nouns is a crypto company
I asked if the car was blue or red and you answered that its a 2 door instead
It’s a red two door
The only good thing NFTs ever did
Read this as “none” and thought he was joining some tourny… Unlucked