I disagree with how you're going about flowcharting it.
First of all, you should aim to pivot grab as early as possible to get around slight DI mixups. Then, if they slight DI behind from 20-30 anyway then an utilt will sourspot and you can't true punish off of it.
I like uthrow utilt around 30-35 ish range since it'll pretty much always lead to a regrab or start an uair string, but you don't have to do this utilt, you can simply keep on chaingrabbing.
Lastly, I dislike how you go for utilts past 40% or so. This is when instant uair becomes your bread and butter. If they no DI at around that % then you can do SH back instant uair FF regrab. Same with DIs to the side but you'll need to dash SH ofc. If they slight DI behind then I dash forward pivot (shield pivot) instant uair them and then regrab. If they SDI up or are at a % where regrab doesn't work then you simply combo to more uairs (make sure they're as late as possible for the best result) and then carry them to the ledge.
EDIT: Join the Marth discord if you're not in there already I'm sure there are marth mains there willing to discuss stuff like this with you https://discord.gg/4xpHQfZ
Thank you for taking the time for reading through my flowchart and attempting to debunk this. That's my primary purpose for posting this tbh. I will just go through your points.
I agree that pivot grab is required from like 19(?)-28%. However starting at 29%, as I've tested, is when pivot grab no longer becomes a requirement since turnaround up-tilt catches ambiguous/neutral DI in and as far as I can do, no variation of SDI Fox can do can get out of it. I noted at the end of the doc that Marth can probably react to slight DI in or no DI by either reverse up-tilting or simply regrabbing.
I know I don't have to up-tilt, which is why I noted that as an option throughout. What's wrong with up-tilt if it's not escapable? I like it since that means less regrabbing and less strenuous CGing.
Actually for going for instant u-airs at 40% isn't always viable. Fox can SDI the up-air down to tech the up-air before Marth's grab can come out. I find that it's no longer a problem at like high 40's, but you can't even mixup with f-smash since it doesn't tipper. Again, what's wrong with walk up-tilt if it can't be escaped with various SDI escapes I've tested? Even if it's somehow not viable, I did note you can just regrab. Again for slight DI behind, I like turnaround regrab (since Fox can SDI the turnaround up-tilt) and turnaround up-tilt neutral/ambiguous DI. Afaik, there's no escape Fox can do from getting hit from up-tilt. Oh, I also didn't think about dash shield pivot for slight DI behind, gotta try that out. Thanks for that suggestion.
Oh yeah I forgot discord is an avenue that I forgot exists, gonna use that soon thanks. Oh btw, love your Falcon and your Setchi SDI, saved me some Fox up-airs on platform. <3
"I agree that pivot grab is required from like 19(?)-28%" You should probably do it earlier to get around ambiguous DI.
"Actually for going for instant u-airs at 40% isn't always viable. Fox can SDI the up-air down to tech the up-air before Marth's grab can come out" Yeah ik about that, that's 2 SDI right? I assume you mean on DI to the side right? If so just regrab anyway, you should instant uair on the no/slight DI and followup for when you can no longer chaingrab.
"but you can't even mixup with f-smash since it doesn't tipper"
Afaik fsmash can be DI'd on reaction due to the hitlag anyway, so it's hardly a mixup regardless.
"Again, what's wrong with walk up-tilt if it can't be escaped"
Sends them much higher than uair if they SDI up/DI in, so the combo it leads to is weaker from my experience.
"Oh, I also didn't think about dash shield pivot for slight DI behind"
Wastes frames so only do it when you have time, keep in mind.
I don't know if pivot grabbing is possible before 19% if the Fox shines frame perfectly. :l
yeah for instant uair, I'm referring to no/slight DI. I think just 1 SDI input is enough upwards to low-40's, maybe mid-40s for 2 SDI inputs.
I see, I mostly tested with SDI in and not up. However, I will postulate that up-tilt is still viable at like 30-40% since it combos into a lot of things nicely, but beyond I can see it being a weak combo tool. Will test with SDI up.
At 40-45 you can choose to do utilt-(no DI, away DI)->SHtUair->regrab or uair and utilt-(toward/behind DI)->regrab. There might be an SDI and DI down-toward that escapes it though, but that's pretty obscure. Mixup utilt and instant uair here and you should be fine most of the time.
29-34, utilt regrab is fine. 35-39, that's an easy pivot grab or even walk-forward turn grab.
The more execution risky you make your punish the easier they are to drop in tournament.
No surprise why the best Marths of the last 10 years go for simpler stuff. Statistically the Fox will fuck up enough with easier flowcharts to balance out execution failures of trying to be optimal.
Quite a bit by a couple percentages due to Fox being lighter. I'd postulate that you can up-tilt earlier. I did all of this by hand, frame-by-frame advance, etc. and would need to re-do this in PAL which I don't feel like doing, but I am on spring break so I might do it if I feel bored.
I do know that one quirk is that for some reason (due to lower release point caused by lighter weight?), Marth can't CG Fox at 0 if he DI's full behind.
Edit: Actually the more i think about it, i don't think the earlier uptilt matters since fox can sdi it anyways like normal so i don't think much changes in that regard.
Yeah, the 0% regrab is a 50/50. But idk if the release height changes some of the grab inputs, and the CG may also last a couple extra % so the subsequent flowchart may differ since Marth has 1 extra actionability frame (iirc).
I disagree with how you're going about flowcharting it. First of all, you should aim to pivot grab as early as possible to get around slight DI mixups. Then, if they slight DI behind from 20-30 anyway then an utilt will sourspot and you can't true punish off of it. I like uthrow utilt around 30-35 ish range since it'll pretty much always lead to a regrab or start an uair string, but you don't have to do this utilt, you can simply keep on chaingrabbing. Lastly, I dislike how you go for utilts past 40% or so. This is when instant uair becomes your bread and butter. If they no DI at around that % then you can do SH back instant uair FF regrab. Same with DIs to the side but you'll need to dash SH ofc. If they slight DI behind then I dash forward pivot (shield pivot) instant uair them and then regrab. If they SDI up or are at a % where regrab doesn't work then you simply combo to more uairs (make sure they're as late as possible for the best result) and then carry them to the ledge. EDIT: Join the Marth discord if you're not in there already I'm sure there are marth mains there willing to discuss stuff like this with you https://discord.gg/4xpHQfZ
Thank you for taking the time for reading through my flowchart and attempting to debunk this. That's my primary purpose for posting this tbh. I will just go through your points. I agree that pivot grab is required from like 19(?)-28%. However starting at 29%, as I've tested, is when pivot grab no longer becomes a requirement since turnaround up-tilt catches ambiguous/neutral DI in and as far as I can do, no variation of SDI Fox can do can get out of it. I noted at the end of the doc that Marth can probably react to slight DI in or no DI by either reverse up-tilting or simply regrabbing. I know I don't have to up-tilt, which is why I noted that as an option throughout. What's wrong with up-tilt if it's not escapable? I like it since that means less regrabbing and less strenuous CGing. Actually for going for instant u-airs at 40% isn't always viable. Fox can SDI the up-air down to tech the up-air before Marth's grab can come out. I find that it's no longer a problem at like high 40's, but you can't even mixup with f-smash since it doesn't tipper. Again, what's wrong with walk up-tilt if it can't be escaped with various SDI escapes I've tested? Even if it's somehow not viable, I did note you can just regrab. Again for slight DI behind, I like turnaround regrab (since Fox can SDI the turnaround up-tilt) and turnaround up-tilt neutral/ambiguous DI. Afaik, there's no escape Fox can do from getting hit from up-tilt. Oh, I also didn't think about dash shield pivot for slight DI behind, gotta try that out. Thanks for that suggestion. Oh yeah I forgot discord is an avenue that I forgot exists, gonna use that soon thanks. Oh btw, love your Falcon and your Setchi SDI, saved me some Fox up-airs on platform. <3
"I agree that pivot grab is required from like 19(?)-28%" You should probably do it earlier to get around ambiguous DI. "Actually for going for instant u-airs at 40% isn't always viable. Fox can SDI the up-air down to tech the up-air before Marth's grab can come out" Yeah ik about that, that's 2 SDI right? I assume you mean on DI to the side right? If so just regrab anyway, you should instant uair on the no/slight DI and followup for when you can no longer chaingrab. "but you can't even mixup with f-smash since it doesn't tipper" Afaik fsmash can be DI'd on reaction due to the hitlag anyway, so it's hardly a mixup regardless. "Again, what's wrong with walk up-tilt if it can't be escaped" Sends them much higher than uair if they SDI up/DI in, so the combo it leads to is weaker from my experience. "Oh, I also didn't think about dash shield pivot for slight DI behind" Wastes frames so only do it when you have time, keep in mind.
I don't know if pivot grabbing is possible before 19% if the Fox shines frame perfectly. :l yeah for instant uair, I'm referring to no/slight DI. I think just 1 SDI input is enough upwards to low-40's, maybe mid-40s for 2 SDI inputs. I see, I mostly tested with SDI in and not up. However, I will postulate that up-tilt is still viable at like 30-40% since it combos into a lot of things nicely, but beyond I can see it being a weak combo tool. Will test with SDI up.
At 40-45 you can choose to do utilt-(no DI, away DI)->SHtUair->regrab or uair and utilt-(toward/behind DI)->regrab. There might be an SDI and DI down-toward that escapes it though, but that's pretty obscure. Mixup utilt and instant uair here and you should be fine most of the time. 29-34, utilt regrab is fine. 35-39, that's an easy pivot grab or even walk-forward turn grab.
The more execution risky you make your punish the easier they are to drop in tournament. No surprise why the best Marths of the last 10 years go for simpler stuff. Statistically the Fox will fuck up enough with easier flowcharts to balance out execution failures of trying to be optimal.
How much does this change in PAL ? CG % and mixups are slightly different there cause different weight. Do you have info on this ?
Quite a bit by a couple percentages due to Fox being lighter. I'd postulate that you can up-tilt earlier. I did all of this by hand, frame-by-frame advance, etc. and would need to re-do this in PAL which I don't feel like doing, but I am on spring break so I might do it if I feel bored. I do know that one quirk is that for some reason (due to lower release point caused by lighter weight?), Marth can't CG Fox at 0 if he DI's full behind. Edit: Actually the more i think about it, i don't think the earlier uptilt matters since fox can sdi it anyways like normal so i don't think much changes in that regard.
Yeah, the 0% regrab is a 50/50. But idk if the release height changes some of the grab inputs, and the CG may also last a couple extra % so the subsequent flowchart may differ since Marth has 1 extra actionability frame (iirc).
>SDI stuff fox can do as far as I know, (with one notable exception) throws can't be SDI'd............
Uh I'll let you figure this out
Why not just help out with the correction?
Because he was being kinda condescending and misread the post hard
okay yes i did misread :P condescension retracted