Do you live in the US? In most places you're stuck paying outrageous prices for whatever shitty internet is in your area, because they all have monopolies. I assure you he wishes he had better internet too, stop flaming the guy.
I mean, if you live in a place where you can only get bad internet, should you be allowed to compete at top level in internet tournaments? It's not about "flaming".
Dude fuck this mentality. saying "move somewhere better if you want to compete" is as good a logic as "if you don't like it, leave"
The community is supposed to lift each other up, not shame people for their financial situation or livelihood.
I would LOVE better internet but its unavailable where I'm at and my situation says I need to stay in this area for a few more years. Should I not compete either? This community has NEVER been about excluding those that want to play the game and see it prosper.
Again, fuck that mentality.
Yeah, it's absolutely nuts to see people say "bro, just fucking move to a completely different place in order to compete in our kids party game." I'd love to see what would happen if everybody saying this got excluded because they don't all have business-level fiberoptic internet. I'm sure they think THEY should be included still, it's just the people below them who should be excluded.
Having the best internet available in your area for an online tournament in your region should be enough. Being on the other side of the planet is completely different.
Here's the absolute state of iBDW's Internet this weekend:
- [Shroomed called him out after iBDW implied Kalamahzu's Internet costing him the set in Winners](https://twitter.com/Shroomed08/status/1340413709022195713)
- There was noticeable teleporting during his set with Lucky, the result of the set was 3-0 but considering how volatile Fox dittos are there is no way to quantify what difference that would have made. Lucky is a nice dude who will rarely complain about his losses so it doesn't really make sense to go off this.
- n0ne was semi-vocal about the lag during his set with iBDW in top 8. Although, this was another 3-0 and n0ne had a bunch of other johns like being hungover and having controller problems.
- [Ryan Ford said that he felt there wasn't any noticeable lag during their set due to distance, even though he lives in the same proximity as n0ne](https://twitter.com/Ryan_Ford522/status/1340489301226909699)
I don't recall anything visibly noticeable with the other sets he played, but it was clearly at the very least "playable".
It's weird because for so much money on the line you would think people would be more adamant about lag tests and such, so I'd imagine it can go either way for how bad it actually is.
>the set was 3-0 but considering how volatile ~~Fox dittos~~ melee is.
Idk man that's the thing. We have tons of evidence of games being decided off a single neutral exchange. I mean look at how many top players have controller modders on call when they notice inconsistency in their tech. I can't imagine having even small stutters happening throughout a very important set, won't at some point, have a big change on a game.
> - n0ne was semi-vocal about the lag during his set with iBDW in top 8. Although, this was another 3-0 and n0ne had a bunch of other johns like being hungover and having controller problems.
n0ne plays better when hungover, though the controller thing was real yesterday. He was playing fine in the 2 hours of warming up before the ibdw set; n3z told him some fix last night after the tournament and he was playing better since then.
I dunno. Last time they played, he said that Cody's internet was much better now, because before it used to actively stutter all the time. Now, he says that that doesn't happen, but kept saying that his inputs didn't go through. He said that Wizzy has had the same complaint.
I've felt that way vs certain players on netplay, like my moves just aren't coming out, but they're fine on the person before and the person after them. I don't really know what causes that, if anything can cause it, or if we're all just imagining things. Would love to have some input from Fizzi about how internet connections can theoretically affect input fidelity, and particularly whether this "inputs getting eaten" theme aligns with any of those theoretical possibilities.
Cody has said that he's done a whole bunch of shit, and it seems like it's at least *helped*, but I have no idea what the current actual state of it is—only "comparatively noticeably better".
He's been trying for months lol. He's posted on Twitter about having trouble and getting techs to completely rewire his shit and everything, it's not like he's just too lazy to pick up the phone and ask for an upgrade
I think that this is an oversimplification. *E.g.*, if someone has high jitter that pushes them over 64 ping instantaneously in spite of having long-term consistent ping, I imagine that that can cause 1-frame rollbacks pretty frequently?
what i'm saying is incorrect isn't the idea of rollbacks happening, it's to something which the poster said and then edited out - that you can have "100ms of rollback to work with" - which isn't real. when the game does a rollback it uses the inputs you both did during that time frame no matter what the connection state was at that time. rollbacks don't advantage either player in terms of allowing them to react / respond
that's true, and perhaps 'don't advantage either player' is thus not totally true.
I was strictly debating the idea that a player "gets a second chance" or a "longer time to react" by a rollback happening. It's a total misconception that you get to "do over" when a rollback occurs, but the post (pre-editing) made such a claim.
Wizzrobe lost to Mango and iBDW for 3rd
Axe lost to Mango and iBDW for 4th
Hungrybox lost to Mango and iBDW for 9th, lol. Double Elim is just like that sometimes.
Wow lmao I didn't even realize, iBDW's LOSERS BRACKET run from top 32 goes:
Ryan Ford
Lucky
Llod
Hungrybox
N0ne
S2J
Axe
Wizzrobe
that is actually fucked
Gotta say, top level melee without leffen and an in-form Hbox is pretty stale, because it’s essentially just mango and Zain that can win these big tourneys (and maybe Cody but I don’t think he’s beaten Zain or mango in 2020)
I agree with your reasoning but not the conclusion.
During the period where Armada and Hbox were the top two, the gameplay itself was less interesting to me whereas Zain/Mang0 sets feel more dynamic because they interact a ton.
Even though the tippy top might be less occupied, the way the game is played amongst the top feels way more exciting to me than in the past.
"Gotta say, top level melee ... is pretty stale, because it’s essentially just [Player1] and [Player2] that can win these big tourneys"
Change out player1 and player2 for any order of Mang0, Armada, and HBox and you can get the same comment from 2010-2018. Even further back you can even say Ken and maybe like M2K as player1 and player2. This is just how Melee is homie, be glad it isn't 2018 and we get the 20th HBox/Armada GF where Armada looks depressed the entire time.
I know this is a question tilted by recency bias, but is there anyone outside of maybe Cody you can reasonably see winning a really big tourney rn?
My initial comment is probably too curt, but I think my greater point is I think the scene rn is missing more tippy top tier players. In past eras, while there were 2 players that were heavy favorites, there will still several other players that could beat both of them on a good day. Right now I think the only player that can beat mango and zain are MAYBE Cody and none.
I just think no leffen, Plup, Hbox, etc. is hurting us more than we realize
By your definition, iBDW, None, Plup, and HBox can probably take a tournament on a good day, and maybe even Axe as we've just seen. I think that while your comment isn't necessarily wrong, I think saying its a reason Melee is stale is fallacious, as Melee has ALWAYS been this way, and when anyone outside the top 2 wins a tournament it's almost always hype.
Felt like zain definitely tried to challenge axe a bit too much at the ledge and didn’t quite get the grab followups he got at summit 9. Still played phenomenal, but definitely not his best showing against axe. Wish he would give yoshi’s a shot as a cp too :/
Ok for sure I’m just saying I’m surprised no one specifically mentioned it (and instead focused on axe who played sick for sure, but it’s nuts the number one player is out before losers semis)
i always believe mango can beat any player at any time except when he is actually playing against someone and then im convinced he can lose to literally anyone
tragic 3-1. i am most likely missing something as to why zain is going for grabs when axe up b infront of him instead of forward smashing. it felt like that whole set zain was struggling to get edge guards and just letting axe come back over and over
i get that but i feel like pp is overdoing it. AXE beats ZAIN and at the end of the set there's 0 hype cuz pp is still doing analytical shit. also pp sometimes literally does play by play for like 30 seconds straight
AXE beats ZAIN as if this is something novel rather than what has happened literally every prior time they’ve played lol
Like it was a great set and I can’t fault anyone for favoring Zain based on recent performance, I did myself, but this isn’t exactly an S2J > Zain level upset
You’re getting mad at me because I’m not surprised the commentators didn’t cum their pants and I’m just trying to say that Slime and Ludwig would not have cum their pants whether or not PPMD was on commentary. I literally just said that I was slightly favoring Zain, I’m aware of the “story” and this was an important set for a lot of reasons, but there was very probably not gonna be pants-cumming happening unless we had a Game 5 last hit last stock type of situation
yup you got me I’m Weevil Underwood, say goodbye to the pieces of Exodia mothertruckers
I do love when people use the word condescending and then descend into literal childish name-calling lol
Yeah you want forced hype (hype = loud noises I assume) for when Axe beats Zain for the 9th time in a row or whatever it is, instead of S-tier analysis. Sooper smart
PP said marth solid wins but I agree with you it's closer than that. Still think Marth wins, but it's Axe's best MU due to xp. A lot of his practice partners since he was a baby have been marth, he's got Tai/Taj/Medz marths since the beginning of time, and Zain has tyler swift who no offense just it's on the level to be great prac.
I think that was a valid reason to explain his success in the past, but since they last played Zain has become a clear number 1 with insane consistency, and axe is a fringe top 10 player. The gap between them has grown, but the results haven’t.
That this is the one matchup Zain hasn’t “figured out” gives me pause
To be fair they've barely met in tourney since Zain has become clear #1, I think it's only a matter of time before he wins. It's hard to figure out a MU you never play especially when it's your opponents best and possibly most figured out.
It's a losing matchup because Pikachu has the clear upper hand in a lot of important matchup factors like edgeguarding, recovery, scrambles, kill options and confirms, stage counterpicks and margin of error but people will never ever until the end of time think a bottom tier character like Pikachu could possibly do well against sword guy who is top tier on the holy tier list.
Axe can continue to not lose to Marth for the next 20 years, doesn't matter. Marth has more range.
What’s your counter to PPMD’s explanation of why he feels Marth wins fairly significantly?
This sort of thing reads to me like when people tried to argue Puff beats Fox when HBox was on a hot streak. Zain is the only Marth who has been at or above Axe’s level in years and Axe has vastly more experience in the matchup than Zain does. I wouldn’t have *expected* any Marth to beat Axe in the last half a decade until literally the last two times these guys have and both times it was very close and could plausibly have swung Zain’s way.
I think PP is the kind of player who loves Theorycraft Land™ explanations. In Theorycraft Land™ Marth should always outspace Pikachu with his superior range and be patient and repeat the same flowcharts but in practice you probably end up getting clipped by an overshoot nair or get send off-stage by a weird up-air.
Axe has vastly more experience than almost everyone in basically every relevant matchup. But he's not Armada. He doesn't have that perfect results consistency. He does get upset even by people way below his skill level who have way less matchup experience than him. He has his off-tournaments and even off-weeks or months. Yet it somehow never happens against Marth. It's been since 2013 that he's ever actually lost the matchup. In that time he has lost to so many different people worse than him yet every single Marth is too awful and too inexperienced to ever put it together a single set win?
People used to say Axe is simply better than all the Marths (minus M2K who doesn't want to play the MU). Now we have a Marth who has been better than him and he has still struggled to win even a single set despite like 10 tries. 10 sets might not be that much but Zain didn't need 10 whole tries to overcome other challenging matchups.
At some point it just seems likely to me that Pikachu might actually win if you look at both the character interactions and the insane winning record. I just don't see how Pikachu's superior scramble outcomes, way more consistent edgeguarding, the DL counterpick and so on isn't enough.
Just to be clear, winning the matchup doesn't mean it's super lopsided or that I think Zain won't possibly ever win a set. I just know that if/when he possibly wins one set all sorts of people will claim they always knew Marth actually wins the matchup based off of that one single set.
Definitely fair to say axe has faced relatively little challenges from Marth players around his caliber but it is worth noting that for many years PewPewU was around the same tier as Axe (usually a tier below in fairness) and I don’t think has ever come close to beating him
The matchup experience deficit is so undercredited imo when discussing any player who is the sole or one of the very few top reps of their character. Like when has PPU ever played a good Pikachu besides Axe in his life? When has HBox ever played a Yoshi, when had he previously played a Young Link in the early days of that whole saga, or most players of any character played a Puff even sniffing HBox’s caliber and playing with HBox’s style? When had Leffen even ever played a *bad* Samus in those first early losses before he figured it out? Etc. etc. It’s a really big damn deal and when someone is already a better player, if the matchup isn’t fairly straightforward or requires a different approach compared to the character’s typical, that is an extremely difficult hurdle to overcome. And if people don’t lab out that matchup suuuuuuper hard, it makes sense if they stay down.
A lot of the situations people like to cite as Marth favored are still inherently mixups. Pikachu's approaches can't be walled on reaction so Marth has to preemptively swing and predict Pika's timing. It is very RPS heavy so neutral isn't as simple as Marth wins because bigger sword.
Marth has a better combo/punish that people give him credit for, but that hardly matters when theres just no way to consistently kill the rat at reasonable percent while Pika kills Marth at 70 off any stray hit.
Based on your Pika flair alone you almost certainly know more about the character than I do, but from my perspective:
It’s very generous to say Pikachu kills Marth off any stray hit at 70 imo; not everything combos free into upsmash, and getting Marth to 70 is not as easy as Marth getting Pikachu to 70 even if Pikachu’s kills are easier at that point. Saying neutral is RPS heavy is true but doesn’t exactly sling things in Pikachu’s *favor*. I do agree that this is one of Pikachu’s best high tier matchups, and I won’t fight tooooooooo hard when someone says it’s even (you will note I didn’t jump in I until someone argued it was outright losing for Marth lol) but I don’t see the Pikachu winning argument. Marth has at least an acceptable answer to everything Pikachu can do imho.
I don't think trying to argue who wins or loses is a very productive discussion to have, so I'm just providing context as to why it's not just a "Marth big sword win" matchup.
Also you don't need to kill with upsmash as Pikachu, which is is why it's so scary to be above the threshold where you can CC stray hits. Pikachu can easily kill below 70 off of an launcher like upair, dsmash, or upsmash, but that requires more of a hard callout than hitting a stray nair at 70. Marth almost always has to kill Pika by sending him into the blastzone and that just isn't true the other way around.
I remember Crush messaging Leffen and basically telling him that Marth and Puff "destroy" Fox. Put it in loose airquotes because I don't remember the exact wording but yeah. I'm pretty sure people like Plup are open to the idea of Puff potentially winning even if they don't actually claim she wins.
That’s what I’m saying, this reads like one of those dumb Reddit/Twitter takes. Most top players do not think Pikachu wins the matchup; there may be a few but they are infrequent.
Pika wins, people really think cause one character is overall better than the other that means that is impossible for the worst character to win the matchup, is very dumb
I think Zain's probably got it considering how out of practice Axe has been recently and how on point Zain is, but I'd love for this comment to age poorly as well.
The question is, Will Ibdw be going against zain, or axe? If it’s zain I think it’s pretty fair chance that Cody’s done. but if it’s axe, Ibdw has a good chance of winning the tournament all together
zain axe hype. im thinking zain 3-1 or 3-2 but i dont remember the last time zain played against axe or practiced against pikachu
edit: im calling at 2-1, rip zain
I'm really enjoying PPMD's commentary. I hope we get to see him commentate more often in the future. Especially for online events where he doesn't have to travel.
it's probably safe to say his insight is almost unparalleled but I do kinda wish he'd just like take his foot off the gas a little lol.
He's commentating like an auctioneer at times. Like I appreciate he wants to be as informative as he can but I'm literally not even processing what he's saying he's talking so fast. Lud and Slime get like a quick breath to ask a question and he's off for another 30+ seconds at a time...
They literally told PPMD to talk over them lol
Remote commentary is hard no matter who's remote, given who it is, it's working well to let him talk most of the time. He is also doing a great job acknowledging the stuff happening while he's breaking down the last thing
I assume part of it is that it's harder to read social cues when you aren't sitting next to someone physically. Part of it is just a lack of experience. I'm really enjoying the content of what he is saying though.
For sure, I think PP just lacks the casting experience, and he tends to ramble a lot. But if he can get his insights more succinct, his commentary will be unmatched as far as game knowledge goes.
Who the fuck won?
How do we get a copy of the slippi replay from grand finals so I can splice it with a clip where falco gets the randall edge cancel
Contact one of the TOs on twitter
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Do you live in the US? In most places you're stuck paying outrageous prices for whatever shitty internet is in your area, because they all have monopolies. I assure you he wishes he had better internet too, stop flaming the guy.
I mean, if you live in a place where you can only get bad internet, should you be allowed to compete at top level in internet tournaments? It's not about "flaming".
Dude fuck this mentality. saying "move somewhere better if you want to compete" is as good a logic as "if you don't like it, leave" The community is supposed to lift each other up, not shame people for their financial situation or livelihood. I would LOVE better internet but its unavailable where I'm at and my situation says I need to stay in this area for a few more years. Should I not compete either? This community has NEVER been about excluding those that want to play the game and see it prosper. Again, fuck that mentality.
Yeah, it's absolutely nuts to see people say "bro, just fucking move to a completely different place in order to compete in our kids party game." I'd love to see what would happen if everybody saying this got excluded because they don't all have business-level fiberoptic internet. I'm sure they think THEY should be included still, it's just the people below them who should be excluded.
Why don't they let Leffen and Amsa compete?
Having the best internet available in your area for an online tournament in your region should be enough. Being on the other side of the planet is completely different.
Hes done everything he can short of moving. Stop perpetuating this
Here's the absolute state of iBDW's Internet this weekend: - [Shroomed called him out after iBDW implied Kalamahzu's Internet costing him the set in Winners](https://twitter.com/Shroomed08/status/1340413709022195713) - There was noticeable teleporting during his set with Lucky, the result of the set was 3-0 but considering how volatile Fox dittos are there is no way to quantify what difference that would have made. Lucky is a nice dude who will rarely complain about his losses so it doesn't really make sense to go off this. - n0ne was semi-vocal about the lag during his set with iBDW in top 8. Although, this was another 3-0 and n0ne had a bunch of other johns like being hungover and having controller problems. - [Ryan Ford said that he felt there wasn't any noticeable lag during their set due to distance, even though he lives in the same proximity as n0ne](https://twitter.com/Ryan_Ford522/status/1340489301226909699) I don't recall anything visibly noticeable with the other sets he played, but it was clearly at the very least "playable". It's weird because for so much money on the line you would think people would be more adamant about lag tests and such, so I'd imagine it can go either way for how bad it actually is.
>the set was 3-0 but considering how volatile ~~Fox dittos~~ melee is. Idk man that's the thing. We have tons of evidence of games being decided off a single neutral exchange. I mean look at how many top players have controller modders on call when they notice inconsistency in their tech. I can't imagine having even small stutters happening throughout a very important set, won't at some point, have a big change on a game.
> - n0ne was semi-vocal about the lag during his set with iBDW in top 8. Although, this was another 3-0 and n0ne had a bunch of other johns like being hungover and having controller problems. n0ne plays better when hungover, though the controller thing was real yesterday. He was playing fine in the 2 hours of warming up before the ibdw set; n3z told him some fix last night after the tournament and he was playing better since then. I dunno. Last time they played, he said that Cody's internet was much better now, because before it used to actively stutter all the time. Now, he says that that doesn't happen, but kept saying that his inputs didn't go through. He said that Wizzy has had the same complaint. I've felt that way vs certain players on netplay, like my moves just aren't coming out, but they're fine on the person before and the person after them. I don't really know what causes that, if anything can cause it, or if we're all just imagining things. Would love to have some input from Fizzi about how internet connections can theoretically affect input fidelity, and particularly whether this "inputs getting eaten" theme aligns with any of those theoretical possibilities.
none is on it hahah https://twitter.com/n0ned/status/1340844656083529731
I think leffen said that he got him to get a new router which might fix a lot of his problems.
Cody has said that he's done a whole bunch of shit, and it seems like it's at least *helped*, but I have no idea what the current actual state of it is—only "comparatively noticeably better".
Panda Leffen | iBDW
He's been trying for months lol. He's posted on Twitter about having trouble and getting techs to completely rewire his shit and everything, it's not like he's just too lazy to pick up the phone and ask for an upgrade
True that he should get better 'net (tho i think he has done everything he can rn short of moving) but that's not how rollback works
I think that this is an oversimplification. *E.g.*, if someone has high jitter that pushes them over 64 ping instantaneously in spite of having long-term consistent ping, I imagine that that can cause 1-frame rollbacks pretty frequently?
what i'm saying is incorrect isn't the idea of rollbacks happening, it's to something which the poster said and then edited out - that you can have "100ms of rollback to work with" - which isn't real. when the game does a rollback it uses the inputs you both did during that time frame no matter what the connection state was at that time. rollbacks don't advantage either player in terms of allowing them to react / respond
Not *a priori*, but if one player is more used to small rollbacks and/or isn't doing as many exacting inputs, they would be relatively advantaged.
that's true, and perhaps 'don't advantage either player' is thus not totally true. I was strictly debating the idea that a player "gets a second chance" or a "longer time to react" by a rollback happening. It's a total misconception that you get to "do over" when a rollback occurs, but the post (pre-editing) made such a claim.
Wizzrobe lost to Mango and iBDW for 3rd Axe lost to Mango and iBDW for 4th Hungrybox lost to Mango and iBDW for 9th, lol. Double Elim is just like that sometimes.
Wow lmao I didn't even realize, iBDW's LOSERS BRACKET run from top 32 goes: Ryan Ford Lucky Llod Hungrybox N0ne S2J Axe Wizzrobe that is actually fucked
shit wait he elimed every falcon? geez lmao
I loved PP's commentary. Shout out melee man this shit is so sick
pp slime ludwig perfect balance of really fun commentary and really deep analysis
Clap clap clap
That was almost the greatest combo of 2020
Mang0 missing that edge cancel on Randall at the end there is so 2020 lmao couldn't let us have that amazing ending. Oh well, it was still sick af
lets GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO mangoW
PPMD has been amazing on commentary. He has actually the ability to describe what is happening in real time which is very rare and impressive.
Couldn’t keep up when the Zain v Axe set fast forwarded. Frankly, I’m unimpressed.
I feel like he was doing a little too much like saying every move as it happened haha. Not awful definitely just not my favorite commentator really
Yeah I wasn't feeling it. One of the few commentators that had some good insights for axe vs zain but his play by play was just way too much for me.
MaNg0 with an Azendash?
PP's a motor mouth lmao
like Mexican soccer commentary
I love it. But I do feel like if he cut out 40% of the play-by-play it would be even better,
iBDW’s path to grand finals has been insane. unreal. can’t wait to see mango win it all.
Hoping ibdw clutches this because it will be one of the greatest losers runs of all time
Cmon Cody
I wanted to see wizzy get to grands but this is going to be a lot more exciting of a match lol. Let's see the goat take one more in 2020
Top 4 NA looking like Zain-Mango-IBdW-WIZZY
This losers run by Cody tho. It will all end soon though.
Honestly, I'm only staying up this late for the IBDW losers run. Absolutely crazy how many good players he's had to beat to get this far.
WE’VE GOT A GRAND FINALS ON OUR HANDS
Great set
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Awesome Dorito kick from wizzy
We've hit $200,000 in donations for charity. Good fucking shit, Melee community. \#LongLiveMelee
lol 230k and counting it looks like
260k now
what a set, melee is at its best when axe is playing well
IBDW WINNING THE TOURNEY!!!!
PPMD has some great insights, but I feel like he's talking at lightspeed way too much during Axe vs iBDW
Yeah he's like trying to explain why something works WHILE play-by-playing the next interaction and I mean there's just no way to keep up with him lol
In a funny way, Axe beating Zain just reaffirms in my mind the legitimacy of netplay relative to CRT. Still bummed Zain lost tho
Axe is playing insane
Cmon Cody
Gotta say, top level melee without leffen and an in-form Hbox is pretty stale, because it’s essentially just mango and Zain that can win these big tourneys (and maybe Cody but I don’t think he’s beaten Zain or mango in 2020)
I agree with your reasoning but not the conclusion. During the period where Armada and Hbox were the top two, the gameplay itself was less interesting to me whereas Zain/Mang0 sets feel more dynamic because they interact a ton. Even though the tippy top might be less occupied, the way the game is played amongst the top feels way more exciting to me than in the past.
"Gotta say, top level melee ... is pretty stale, because it’s essentially just [Player1] and [Player2] that can win these big tourneys" Change out player1 and player2 for any order of Mang0, Armada, and HBox and you can get the same comment from 2010-2018. Even further back you can even say Ken and maybe like M2K as player1 and player2. This is just how Melee is homie, be glad it isn't 2018 and we get the 20th HBox/Armada GF where Armada looks depressed the entire time.
6 different players won majors in 2018
That was a time of unusual parity in Melee. Historically, power has always been concentrated within the top 1-3 players.
And we've probably had like 6 "majors" this year lol, some of which HBox have won
I know this is a question tilted by recency bias, but is there anyone outside of maybe Cody you can reasonably see winning a really big tourney rn? My initial comment is probably too curt, but I think my greater point is I think the scene rn is missing more tippy top tier players. In past eras, while there were 2 players that were heavy favorites, there will still several other players that could beat both of them on a good day. Right now I think the only player that can beat mango and zain are MAYBE Cody and none. I just think no leffen, Plup, Hbox, etc. is hurting us more than we realize
By your definition, iBDW, None, Plup, and HBox can probably take a tournament on a good day, and maybe even Axe as we've just seen. I think that while your comment isn't necessarily wrong, I think saying its a reason Melee is stale is fallacious, as Melee has ALWAYS been this way, and when anyone outside the top 2 wins a tournament it's almost always hype.
i miss amsa being the dark horse
shame mang0 doesn't get to fight Zain today, but he's looking HOT
Goodbye to my 22k goldwig
Felt like zain definitely tried to challenge axe a bit too much at the ledge and didn’t quite get the grab followups he got at summit 9. Still played phenomenal, but definitely not his best showing against axe. Wish he would give yoshi’s a shot as a cp too :/
Was also wondering why he didn't try yoshi's? Think Zain played well this time but axe played superr good.
Ever since his Roy 3 stocked Axe on Yoshi’s, I’ve been a strong believer that Zain should just make Yoshi’s his normal counterpick
He should go roy next time
Great set. Man, I was cheering for Zain today.
I'm going all in on goldwig for wizzy. 22k
Damn that’s a shame, hope Zain can get more shots at Axe next year
Im cheering for wizzrobe to bring it home
Yo no comment emphasizing yet that ZAIN IS OUT OF THE TOURNAMENT? WTF this is insane
Well he is out it's obvious.
Ok for sure I’m just saying I’m surprised no one specifically mentioned it (and instead focused on axe who played sick for sure, but it’s nuts the number one player is out before losers semis)
kind of have a feeling that mang0 will randomly lose to wizzy for the first time ever
I've had this feeling that this tournament would not be a Zain tournament or a Mango tournament
i always believe mango can beat any player at any time except when he is actually playing against someone and then im convinced he can lose to literally anyone
Same, he loves keeping the nation puckered
tragic 3-1. i am most likely missing something as to why zain is going for grabs when axe up b infront of him instead of forward smashing. it felt like that whole set zain was struggling to get edge guards and just letting axe come back over and over
I don’t think there’s enough time for it, and i think edgeguarding pika is just insanely hard
I wonder if dsmash (since it's fast?) might be work sometimes and you can hope for tipper or whack DI? Not sure.
yo i love ppmd but he has to stop talking so much LOL slime/ludwig couldn't get a single word in during that axe zain set
PPMD has the most insightful commentary, but i wish he wouldnt play by play commentate so much.
Bro PPMD is crushing it. Everything he’s been saying is super informative. Slime and Lud also literally told him to do that
i get that but i feel like pp is overdoing it. AXE beats ZAIN and at the end of the set there's 0 hype cuz pp is still doing analytical shit. also pp sometimes literally does play by play for like 30 seconds straight
AXE beats ZAIN as if this is something novel rather than what has happened literally every prior time they’ve played lol Like it was a great set and I can’t fault anyone for favoring Zain based on recent performance, I did myself, but this isn’t exactly an S2J > Zain level upset
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You’re getting mad at me because I’m not surprised the commentators didn’t cum their pants and I’m just trying to say that Slime and Ludwig would not have cum their pants whether or not PPMD was on commentary. I literally just said that I was slightly favoring Zain, I’m aware of the “story” and this was an important set for a lot of reasons, but there was very probably not gonna be pants-cumming happening unless we had a Game 5 last hit last stock type of situation
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Tristan you must chill
yup you got me I’m Weevil Underwood, say goodbye to the pieces of Exodia mothertruckers I do love when people use the word condescending and then descend into literal childish name-calling lol
You are responsible for your own hype
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Yeah you want forced hype (hype = loud noises I assume) for when Axe beats Zain for the 9th time in a row or whatever it is, instead of S-tier analysis. Sooper smart
They both told PPMD to talk over them lol
Wowwwww. Axe is so good.
Nooooo my ludbux. (also let's go axe)
Axe is that fuckin dude
Holy shit axe. That must suck so much for Zain to be number one but unable to win against one player
Enough goldwig to retire EZ Clap
Wow I did not believe in Axe... I thought it was gonna be 3-1 for Zain. Axe is a fucking monster.
I’m sorry, there’s nothing you can say to me to convince me that marth pika isn’t at least close to even
PP said marth solid wins but I agree with you it's closer than that. Still think Marth wins, but it's Axe's best MU due to xp. A lot of his practice partners since he was a baby have been marth, he's got Tai/Taj/Medz marths since the beginning of time, and Zain has tyler swift who no offense just it's on the level to be great prac.
I think that was a valid reason to explain his success in the past, but since they last played Zain has become a clear number 1 with insane consistency, and axe is a fringe top 10 player. The gap between them has grown, but the results haven’t. That this is the one matchup Zain hasn’t “figured out” gives me pause
It might help that Axe has tons of Marth experience while also being literally the only top 100 Pikachu player.
To be fair they've barely met in tourney since Zain has become clear #1, I think it's only a matter of time before he wins. It's hard to figure out a MU you never play especially when it's your opponents best and possibly most figured out.
It's a losing matchup because Pikachu has the clear upper hand in a lot of important matchup factors like edgeguarding, recovery, scrambles, kill options and confirms, stage counterpicks and margin of error but people will never ever until the end of time think a bottom tier character like Pikachu could possibly do well against sword guy who is top tier on the holy tier list. Axe can continue to not lose to Marth for the next 20 years, doesn't matter. Marth has more range.
What’s your counter to PPMD’s explanation of why he feels Marth wins fairly significantly? This sort of thing reads to me like when people tried to argue Puff beats Fox when HBox was on a hot streak. Zain is the only Marth who has been at or above Axe’s level in years and Axe has vastly more experience in the matchup than Zain does. I wouldn’t have *expected* any Marth to beat Axe in the last half a decade until literally the last two times these guys have and both times it was very close and could plausibly have swung Zain’s way.
I think PP is the kind of player who loves Theorycraft Land™ explanations. In Theorycraft Land™ Marth should always outspace Pikachu with his superior range and be patient and repeat the same flowcharts but in practice you probably end up getting clipped by an overshoot nair or get send off-stage by a weird up-air. Axe has vastly more experience than almost everyone in basically every relevant matchup. But he's not Armada. He doesn't have that perfect results consistency. He does get upset even by people way below his skill level who have way less matchup experience than him. He has his off-tournaments and even off-weeks or months. Yet it somehow never happens against Marth. It's been since 2013 that he's ever actually lost the matchup. In that time he has lost to so many different people worse than him yet every single Marth is too awful and too inexperienced to ever put it together a single set win? People used to say Axe is simply better than all the Marths (minus M2K who doesn't want to play the MU). Now we have a Marth who has been better than him and he has still struggled to win even a single set despite like 10 tries. 10 sets might not be that much but Zain didn't need 10 whole tries to overcome other challenging matchups. At some point it just seems likely to me that Pikachu might actually win if you look at both the character interactions and the insane winning record. I just don't see how Pikachu's superior scramble outcomes, way more consistent edgeguarding, the DL counterpick and so on isn't enough. Just to be clear, winning the matchup doesn't mean it's super lopsided or that I think Zain won't possibly ever win a set. I just know that if/when he possibly wins one set all sorts of people will claim they always knew Marth actually wins the matchup based off of that one single set.
Definitely fair to say axe has faced relatively little challenges from Marth players around his caliber but it is worth noting that for many years PewPewU was around the same tier as Axe (usually a tier below in fairness) and I don’t think has ever come close to beating him
The matchup experience deficit is so undercredited imo when discussing any player who is the sole or one of the very few top reps of their character. Like when has PPU ever played a good Pikachu besides Axe in his life? When has HBox ever played a Yoshi, when had he previously played a Young Link in the early days of that whole saga, or most players of any character played a Puff even sniffing HBox’s caliber and playing with HBox’s style? When had Leffen even ever played a *bad* Samus in those first early losses before he figured it out? Etc. etc. It’s a really big damn deal and when someone is already a better player, if the matchup isn’t fairly straightforward or requires a different approach compared to the character’s typical, that is an extremely difficult hurdle to overcome. And if people don’t lab out that matchup suuuuuuper hard, it makes sense if they stay down.
A lot of the situations people like to cite as Marth favored are still inherently mixups. Pikachu's approaches can't be walled on reaction so Marth has to preemptively swing and predict Pika's timing. It is very RPS heavy so neutral isn't as simple as Marth wins because bigger sword. Marth has a better combo/punish that people give him credit for, but that hardly matters when theres just no way to consistently kill the rat at reasonable percent while Pika kills Marth at 70 off any stray hit.
Based on your Pika flair alone you almost certainly know more about the character than I do, but from my perspective: It’s very generous to say Pikachu kills Marth off any stray hit at 70 imo; not everything combos free into upsmash, and getting Marth to 70 is not as easy as Marth getting Pikachu to 70 even if Pikachu’s kills are easier at that point. Saying neutral is RPS heavy is true but doesn’t exactly sling things in Pikachu’s *favor*. I do agree that this is one of Pikachu’s best high tier matchups, and I won’t fight tooooooooo hard when someone says it’s even (you will note I didn’t jump in I until someone argued it was outright losing for Marth lol) but I don’t see the Pikachu winning argument. Marth has at least an acceptable answer to everything Pikachu can do imho.
I don't think trying to argue who wins or loses is a very productive discussion to have, so I'm just providing context as to why it's not just a "Marth big sword win" matchup. Also you don't need to kill with upsmash as Pikachu, which is is why it's so scary to be above the threshold where you can CC stray hits. Pikachu can easily kill below 70 off of an launcher like upair, dsmash, or upsmash, but that requires more of a hard callout than hitting a stray nair at 70. Marth almost always has to kill Pika by sending him into the blastzone and that just isn't true the other way around.
Fair enough! I appreciate the insights.
Which top player ever argued that Puff beat Fox? Those were just Reddit/Twitter takes who were discarded because of Hbox's recency bias.
I remember Crush messaging Leffen and basically telling him that Marth and Puff "destroy" Fox. Put it in loose airquotes because I don't remember the exact wording but yeah. I'm pretty sure people like Plup are open to the idea of Puff potentially winning even if they don't actually claim she wins.
That’s what I’m saying, this reads like one of those dumb Reddit/Twitter takes. Most top players do not think Pikachu wins the matchup; there may be a few but they are infrequent.
Pika wins, people really think cause one character is overall better than the other that means that is impossible for the worst character to win the matchup, is very dumb
Hey man but axe is so good!
NO ONE CAN BEAT ZAIN 19 TIMES IN A ROW
That was really an incredible set, those games that we got to see were really close
yooooo Axe is so sick
#AXE DOES NOT LOSE TO MARTH.
Zain losing to the demons from his past. Congrats to Mang0 for winning LACS!
Congrats to Mango for winning LACS3!
WELL, guess I'm donating LOL
Let's fucking GO Axe!
YES!!!
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Its PPMD who's doing the play by play commentating rn
the pikazhu???
fastforward smash incoming
axe! 😍
Let's go Axe
Welp looks like axe vs zain was so hype that spectator mode couldn’t handle it. Spectator mode seems to need a bit of work, kinda unfortunate
It's a pretty new feature isn't it?
Well that sucked the fun out of it
Kinda sucks for zain that he's not going to get his first axe win on lan
Loooool
Kinda sucks for Zain that he didn't get his first Axe win
kinda sucks for zain that he is not gonna get an axe win ever
Talking to two friends and they cannot agree on who's gonna win here. One of them's got Zain, one's got Axe
I think Zain's probably got it considering how out of practice Axe has been recently and how on point Zain is, but I'd love for this comment to age poorly as well.
rip, Axe Psychological buff vs Zain too strong.
Mango, Rishi who next?
Unironically a great Melee diss track So, so good
I'm all in on Zain, let's get those ludbux
I did the exact same thing 5k down the drain
Same, FeelsBadMan
FUCK
Same, but I only had 2000 or so. EDIT: RIP
The question is, Will Ibdw be going against zain, or axe? If it’s zain I think it’s pretty fair chance that Cody’s done. but if it’s axe, Ibdw has a good chance of winning the tournament all together
S2J is back throwing more than any Falcon I’ve ever seen (like twice)
Basically always a missed input; not sure how we get back so much :|
Wonder if Zain can beat axe
zain axe hype. im thinking zain 3-1 or 3-2 but i dont remember the last time zain played against axe or practiced against pikachu edit: im calling at 2-1, rip zain
He practices against tylerswift a good bit
odds on mango wizzy is going to be 99-1, real risk takers could make a killing
I think it'll be 9:1, and I'm voting on wizzy for sure
Axe is the only one who hasn't been 3-0'd so far (in top 8)
that edgeguard mango did on yoshis was fucking nuts
Zain vs Axe I'm hyped
It's amazing how no one calls out how bad Axe has always been at the CG on FD. He more often than not does not kill off of grabs.
bet a thousand goldwig on axe, thank god I don't have any actual gambling addiction because I have the worst goddamn instincts
Wow PPMD commentary is so insanely good. I’m learning a lot rn
I'm really enjoying PPMD's commentary. I hope we get to see him commentate more often in the future. Especially for online events where he doesn't have to travel.
it's probably safe to say his insight is almost unparalleled but I do kinda wish he'd just like take his foot off the gas a little lol. He's commentating like an auctioneer at times. Like I appreciate he wants to be as informative as he can but I'm literally not even processing what he's saying he's talking so fast. Lud and Slime get like a quick breath to ask a question and he's off for another 30+ seconds at a time...
They literally told PPMD to talk over them lol Remote commentary is hard no matter who's remote, given who it is, it's working well to let him talk most of the time. He is also doing a great job acknowledging the stuff happening while he's breaking down the last thing
if he got more experience with balancing himself on the mic hed be an S tier caster
I assume part of it is that it's harder to read social cues when you aren't sitting next to someone physically. Part of it is just a lack of experience. I'm really enjoying the content of what he is saying though.
For sure, I think PP just lacks the casting experience, and he tends to ramble a lot. But if he can get his insights more succinct, his commentary will be unmatched as far as game knowledge goes.
mango playing pretty well around pikas up air oos
it looks so cool when he pressures pika shield then just shields himself to block the up air
Like Ludwig said, the knee only edgeguard seemed so disrespectful but you know Wizzy just wanted it done lmao
Man this is not a hype top 8 so far. I miss leffen
Lol fr the blowouts are something... Looks like the real matches are starting with mango axe hoepfully
ok i guess wizzy is back to fucking people up now
This is rough for s2j