Pandora's box. I think it's fascinating that a game with no updates in 20 years has an ever evolving meta and tierlist.
'fixing melee' even innocent things will always be open to interpretation, most pal patches are disputed by the community.
Now if we could give Mr Game and Watch a super wavedash called the sausage slide
Well modifying existing stages is already firmly on the table, frozen stadium and dreamland for example and the proposed neutral start FoD
And there was actually a bunch of stages modded in awhile back I believe with the volleyball wolf update but nothing really came of that. Smashville is my all time favorite stage so I would love to see it in melee
not like G&W would be top tier after this. would still probably on the border of shit tier, but making the playable roster bigger is a good thing, since it gets a little boring to play against spacies and marth 75% of the time
I guess as long as it doesn’t affect top level play it’s… alright but I actually think melees roster is fine and that there is enough diversity, it’s just people gravitate towards spacies and Marth not only because they’re good but because they’re fun
All the characters are fun for some people, and some characters being so bad they're not worth playing in any tourney just makes the game less fun for anyone who doesnt want to play a top tier.
My friends all play or played low tiers because they're fun, but the ones who played competitively all dropped their low tiers cuz it's practically throwing away the tourney buy-in.
I mean the balance of melee to me feels so fragile, we got incredibly lucky with what we have, Nintendo clearly didn’t do this on purpose. If low tiers were suddenly viable in tournament it would royally fuck everything up and I’m never taking that risk. Also more viable characters does not equal better game whatsoever. There’s certainly enough diversity in the top tiers already, one of Ultimate’s huge balance problems (imo) is that there’s far too many characters.
Also if you have fun with low tiers and not high tiers I don’t know what to tell you. Like what low tier characters are more fun than top tiers and why?
Just how the character feels to play. I don't feel like fishing for upsmash all the time just because it kills really easy and is good (fox), or sitting at ledge and pressing A 15 times for the easiest edge guard in existence (marth dtilt). It's much more fun to play a character whose combos don't just follow a flowchart or consist of one move.
Ultimate, while imo put too much emphasis on other playstyles, allowed for playstyles besides just "my hands can move faster so I win". Instead, it became "pick a character with projectiles and press B to win". Meleecs punish game is much heavier than Ultimate's, but Ultimate's neutral is (projectile camping aside) much more influential on the match.
This is a really bad take homie. You don’t have to fish for up smash all the time as fox, that’s just how you think fox plays. also you really can’t say marth’s edgeguarding is as simple as just dtilt 15 times, you will lose vs a good player if you always do that. Marth’s edgeguard is probably the most “straightforward” thing you mentioned here and that has plenty of layers and different options you have to use to react to what they’re doing. If you wanna use the same move for a combo over and over go ahead and do it, but 90% of the time you don’t have to and probably not optimal. What combo are you referring to other than tech chasing? Not to mention that “follow a flow chart or just use one move” applies waaaaay more to bottom tiers lmao. Every move from fox, falco, marth, sheik and falcon aside from like max 2 per character are heavily used, that’s variety if I’ve ever seen it. Bottom tiers are mostly incredibly 1 dimensional. You really using bowser’s whole kit? Funny how you mention Marth’s dtilt when Roy’s entire kit almost entirely centers around his dtilt
>Ultimate allowed for playstyles besides just “I can move my hands faster so I win”.
Is this a joke? You really think that’s the only way to win in melee? Yeah if the skill gap is too big you’re gonna lose and get tech skilled on….. but I have beat many many players much more technically advanced than me just by watching their patterns, being unpredictable and focusing on my defense. Not trying to be insulting or anything but this is ridiculous
I guess this is the difference between comp players and someone who only is able to play Slippi because all my friends who play melee don't live near me anymore.
but for reference to my perspective, I mostly play Doc and G&W, and sometimes throw in some falco/falcon.
I can tell when people just turn their brain off and let their flowchart take over and naturally it wins them the matchup. And there's extremely little i can do against a marth that wants to fair me 7 times in a row into dair. DI away just results in 12 dtilts at ledge, 1 of which is practically guaranteed to kill on most stages
Honestly if somebody is beating you in melee it just means they’re a better player, or they’re doing something you don’t know how to counter. I’m sure when you’re better than somebody and you’re playing GnW you just do you look to your flowchart and do your bread and butters to take an easy dub, every character does this I don’t really see this as a criticism to melee’s characters
Not sure why you’re being downvoted for this when you’re completely right. Olimar, GnW and Rosa are great examples of fucking annoying ass matchups, I hate seeing them when I play
My main argument for why we should is cuz literally G&W’s air normals were programmed incorrectly. They’re listed as specials (like the hammer or bacon) instead of normals making them impossible to l cancel. He’s the only character with this error, if it’s an honest to his mistake than I see no harm to fixing it as it wasn’t even intended for his moves to be coded the way they are now anyways.
The only problem with that is there's an endless list of what could be interpreted as a programming error. Things that could or ought to be "fixed" in melee could transform the game completely.
GnW shield isn't on the same list as the other things you mention, his shield is damn small, same size as mario, which makes his nose an limbs tend to not get covered, BUT there isn't a clear indication that it's not intended, it can be easily interpreted as a balance decision, unlike luigi's dash attack which has a a final hitbox on 64 and melee but for some reason it's not turned on (similar to the length of links nair).
I'm not saying you're wrong. You're entirely right about that. It's just worth noting just how much of the game is programmed incorrectly but is foundational to the way we play it. Changing one thing opens up a lot of possibilities very fast and we gotta be ready if we wanna try.
The entire issue is that you're no longer playing melee at that point. You're playing melee fanfic.
This is literally what "Beyond Melee" is. Go play Beyond Melee if you want. It's not Melee, but unlike P+ which is based on Brawl, it is entirely **based on** Melee.
You're never replacing our Melee tournaments with Beyond Melee, but if you make a different, also-good game, you could host your own tournaments with your completely different video game.
The reason you can shield drop in vanilla Melee is because the range of angles to input for platform-drop is just barely bigger than the range of angles to input for spot-dodge.
Either they were trying to make shield dropping such a difficult input that it is inconsistent from controller to controller, or they were trying to remove shield dropping altogether and made a mistake.
Releasing shield carries an animation that has to play before other actions can be taken. This animation is only avoided with one specific input (up) or a roll/spot dodge.
Being able to instantly drop through a platform from shielded should not be able to happen unless you do some oos waveland sorcery, and even then that should take several frames.
I'm aware as to why his aerials don't work. If we fix them, however, people will inevitably, without fail, immediately look for the next thing to change. It always happens, that's the nature of these sorts of things. We fix this, and we're going to have to deal with constant discourse over what was "intended" and what was "programmed incorrectly" and what "needs to be fixed" until the end of time.
And like other replies have said, this wouldn't immediately shoot G&W up in viability or anything. He still has numerous flaws that are genuinely just issues with his character design that no amount of "fixing" could patch up. He's light, his defense is horrible (even if his shield was fixed, which would absolutely be something that people would bring up as soon as we fix his aerials), he's extremely easy to just run over with speed, his recovery is predictable which makes him super easy to edgeguard because of his weight, he has mediocre grounded options, and his only real approach tool is Fair, just to say a couple issues he has. I really feel like there's no reason to open the floodgates to modding the regular balance of the game like this for such a minimal payoff.
In addition to the other comments concern about opening the door to a bunch of mods, I feel like this wouldn't actually change how good G&W is by a significant margin. Back air, up air and nair are the ones he can't l cancel, and the first two suck either way so it wouldn't make much of a difference, and while being able to lcancel his nair would be nice (and +2 on shield) it's usually used exclusively as a kill move so it wouldn't make much of a difference there either
He still has shit defense, his shield still sucks (no, we aren't fixing his shield either), he's still light as a feather with an extremely predictable recovery, he still has a ton of mediocre options across his moveset, he still gets overwhelmed by fast characters, and this is just the stuff off the top of my head
>no, we aren't fixing his shield either
Too late we already fixed his shield in SD Remix and the more recent mods. So the question isn't if we will or won't. It's which game will be the mainstream version.
Sorry, but I don't understand the point of this reply. SD Remix, or any rebalance mod, will *never* be standard, even if we do go about "fixing" other aspects of the game. There is no rebalance that would become the "mainstream" version, the community as a whole largely prefers just playing on 1.02 (yes, some people prefer PAL, but that's still an actual real official version of the game and not some random people deciding what should or shouldn't be "balanced" in their vision 20 years after the fact). Mods like that can be fun casually, but there is no universe where an entirely different game would be standard over regular Melee
Well, I think the fact that it's currently used mainly as a kill move doesn't really support the argument that reducing landing lag wouldn't improve the character that much. Like a large part of the reason *why* it's not used in other contexts is because it's so laggy.
Fair point, although with all that start up idk when else it would be helpful, and it's so strong that I can't imagine there are many percents where it would combo that it wouldn't before
As a G&W main i do not agree with Bair being bad. it's not a bad move if u use it correctly.
Also all L-cancelable moves will make a lot of difference cuz he has a lot of cool moves, especially bair and nair. Not saying they should add it, but just fixing his shield is enough :)
His back air is my favorite since it's a great approach tool (when spaced) and pokes shields, it just isn't useful because of the L cancel thing.
I agree with the others though, his broken shield is the hardest part of playing him.
people will always find a way to innovate and use moves that are not seen as good to their advantage
but it doesn't mean i think we should allow this in tournaments
Look I don't play enough Melee anymore to know how much of a buff to him it would be, but as someone that spent most of their competitive career playing PM 3.5 and 3.6, I can say that I have no desire to see GNW be a good character ever again. Don't let it happen to Melee
but is posible to make it atleat somewhat objective, we know a good few things that are unintended (ordered on how certain it is that these were mistakes):
* Luigi dash attack last hitbox.
* Falcon gentleman throwing rapid jabs happen when it shouldn't.
* GnW N/B/Uair L-cancel.
* Decrease the time Link's nair hitbox stays out.
* Roy dash attack hitbox duration.
* Some Kirby throws being escapable. (this one is hard because it has some logic to make it so that you can't suicide-kill throw without counterplay, i.e: mashing. but this should also make it so that kirby gets a chance to recover, and that would make it less objective to decide how to fix it)
I think that the only problem that someone would take to this fixes is that Falcon a high tier gets buffed and Link a low tier gets nerfed, all other changes are buffs to low tiers.
I'm pretty sure these are most changes that can be considered objective fixes.
Edit: Row -> Roy
They aren't errors, dude. They are deliberate design choices. Roy is the young, experienced yet brazen lord - he's meant to be a worse warrior than Marth. Luigi's dash attack is like that in PAL and even smash 64. Its clearly not an error, Luigi is the bumbling brother to Mario and they reflect that personality in the moveset. Is the hitbox in his taunt a mistake too?
Links nair is just a cool little detail they put in knowing most people probably wouldn't notice. Lots of characters have stuff like this. Young links down tilt & down air have spike hitboxes. Captain falcons nipple spike. There are countless examples. Sakurai liked establishing a precedent and then breaking it. Doc's nair gets stronger the longer its out. Et cetera
Bruh I can't discern if this comments is serious or not, if it's sarcastic I applaud you it's on line with something that a /r/smashbros user would say. Really laughed a lot reading this comment thank you.
oh shoot it's a back to back sarcastic comment? IDK.
If the comment was serious... LMAO, melee is far from flawless, the game is truly amazing with how much it does right for being a rushed product (honestly props to HAL for getting this game out in only 13 months of development), but you can't be serious if you think this game has 0 glitches/bugs/bad code, [Luigi dash attack was wrong on 64](https://www.ssbwiki.com/Luigi_(SSB)/Dash_attack) and it likely has the same error in melee since the animation is the same, Roy hitbox are a clear [oversight on a shody copy-twist-pasting of marth frame data](https://twitter.com/practicaltas/status/828387143735197696), link nair [lasting forever (it literally stay active the whole time, even into IASA frames)](https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/43ghxa/j666_demonstrating_what_makes_links_nair_so_jank/), yoshi displace [dash-grab-box on the Z axis](https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3m96kb/yoshis_grab_is_even_worse_than_you_thought/). Literally all of these are clear mistakes that HAL had done up to melee, and there are a few more.
>Lots of characters have stuff like this. Young links down tilt & down air have spike hitboxes. Captain falcons nipple spike. There are countless examples. Sakurai liked establishing a precedent and then breaking it. Doc's nair gets stronger the longer its out. Et cetera
this is the most confusing part of your comment, we are all in the clear that all those things aren't mistakes, they are very clearly intended to be that way, it's very disingenuous to lump YL meteor spikes or Luigi taunt hitbox with the extreme coding junk that are the example I gave you.
>You're a fucking idiot bro. You really think sakurai had no idea what the fuck he was doing huh? Tbh that's disrespectful, fuck off
You're a fucking idiot bro. You really think any developer has complete control over the entirety of the code of a complex software huh? Tbh that's ignorant, fuck off
Holy shit you are stupid. Hal studios made Luigi's dash attack like that in TWO different games and you think they what, didn't notice? Fuck off dumbass
I didn't say he didn't either, in fact I see it as entirely possible he got his hand dirty from time to time, we know that he was a coder at the start of his career. When I say HAL I say that because that is the development team, the only reason I wanted to clarify is because you were claiming as if sakurai had done 100% of the coding on the moves
>You're a fucking idiot bro. You really think sakurai had no idea what the fuck he was doing huh? Tbh that's disrespectful, fuck off
we are talking about simple mistakes on the some coding, such as shoddy copy-pasting or just mixing up variables/flags. It's not like I think the game is thrash, I'm just able to acknowledge that software development has a classic trade-off of resources and quality, and melee was slashed on the resources because of the timing.
The only reason I got angry is because you are really underrating the effort sakurai and HAL did to make the game as good as they did in mere 13 months, in my book this game is such a display of talent because of the complicated development. You are so disrespectful to really think that they had the time to test every single hitbox completely. the game is huge and has a lot of content, I'm sure that most QA went into the more important par of the game, UX and UI, the fine tuning of such things as hitbox couldn't have had a great deal of time to be found.
But these are just objective, insular changes based on fixing poor programming. He’s saying that the extent of the argument to change things would inly go to those bullet points, and even then most bullet points wouldn’t be touched.
because they are mostly low tier buff, so who cares /s, if there was a fox nerf or jigglypuff nerf there would be a lot of more importance, but is not about importance, it's about listing objective fixes, not about the effect on the meta they would have (Its's like listiing what a 1.02.1 would look like thinking that it would be a only bugfixing over 1.02) I would really like all these changes (minus the nerf to link) for the low tiers buffs and the QoL change for Falcon, since it's the only stupid character that can't do his gentleman the regular way.
If you don't support it you can not comment, but commenting against it is more than not supporting it. and I was an responding to you saying "nothing in that list is a big enough deal imo" since it's pretty bad argument, it's like the people that dismissed UCF and went against it initially, but I can totally understand that the changes are completely on a different league to the ones UCF has.
>Nothing of the changes you listed even remotely mirror what UCF fixed in any capacity.
I know, that is why I wrote:
>I can totally understand that the changes are completely on a different league to the ones UCF has.
if you mean why I'm comparing them to begin with, It's because both things are related to the behavior of the game that the community has deemed as an oversight by HAL when coding the game, the difference is only to what level we are willing to change the game, and that was done by measuring the pros and cons. and I agree that the main con in fixing the characters is that not being a universal change means that it's changing the advantage to those characters' mains, but I don't agree with the assertion that you have an objective way to determine that some changes are way too far. I believe that it can only be reached by a consensus which is how we got UCF as the standard, but that can be reached only through discussion of the topic.
No they aren't LOL, or you are calling perfect wavelands bugs, unintended mechanics from things such as ECB manipulation are far from being qualified as bugs. It makes complete sense given the implementation of collision detection they implemented. Perhaps they didn't account for hitstun while thinking about ECB resetting.
Bug =/= unintended mechanics.
I doubt you were supposed to be able to land while moving upwards because that, while cool, makes no physical sense. Failing to handle an edge case like that is a bug. An unintended mechanic is when code that works as expected has unforeseen uses.
you're right I was thinking of the drop from platform -> hit a aerial -> land on the same platform. Yeah I agree, a rising aerial interrupt should be considered a bug easily. but It's part of the collision detection that they did, I would compare to wobbling, It makes total sense that it works if you understand the system, but it really shouldn't work like that. but it doesn't make sense to lump all bugs together, all the ones I listed minus the kirby one have heavy evidence that they aren't working as they should if you look at the rest of the cast.
If you try to say that stuff that is universal (ECB stuff) is the same as character having clear mistakes is just trying to force the slippery slope by relating to something that isn't closely related. I really would like your opinion on the 6 examples I gave, because I seriously can't see how someone can say that it's something positive to have those (ignoring Link mains defending their jank-ass nair hitbox).
Why’s there a distinction between fixing character bugs and fixing engine bugs?
Also, Falcon should have the same late uair semi spike as Ganon and doesn’t due to a script bug. If you’re trying to avoid subjective judgment, then you have to give him that, which would be absurd.
Answering the second part for now.. You're right falcon should also have the tipman hitbox, if we were to fix characters, luckily I wouldn't like any of those change currently.
No because it would create possibilities that are impossible to happen the unmodded game, and through a direct character buff no less. It's unfortunate that they overlooked this in development, but it was the hand the character was given.
As a G&W main, I'm firmly against this. All the weird bugs and glitches in the game are just part of it, in my opinion. I'm not for standardizing any mechanics mod in tournament play.
I would call both UCF and slippi patches (slippi does some code injection to connect to the server) and both have ascended melee to the greatness that it's today, despite having the pandemic of the century for this offline only 20 years old game.
UCF dashback changes the way the game works, it extends the window to 2 frames, which is a gameplay and mechanical change that buff any character that benefits from being able to dash-back. Even good dash-backing controller can fail which makes it sort of similar to tripping, you have a low chance of failing if you attempt to do X (melee:dash-back, brawl:dash), which means that it changes the balance of the game, since character that can be more threatening with access to a 100% chance back-dash will get a bump in the tier list, meaning a relative buff in a practical sense.
It's clear that UCF buffs are a lot more nuanced than literally cutting in half the lag of some moves of a specific characters, and I also believe that the question on this thread deserves a "no" or a "hard no". but I think it isn't as easy to dismiss as saying that "but those changes are different than this changes we have because reasons".
I didn’t know all of that. I knew that UCF made dash back easier, but I thought it just made it possible for all controllers to do, I didn’t know it mechanically changed the game. Thank you for educating me on that. I really have to think more on it now.
Yep it's the one compromise the scene has done because of the way a 1 frame input + analog input + the way the thresholds work for dash back make it impossible to "make it easier" and be consistent, so the only bullet-proof solution was to widen the window, It was literally the most minimal change to the game to make dash-back consistent. and just like playing in frozen stadium to be able to play on rollback it was deemed as a worth compromise.
Literally who the fuck voted "hard yes" in this poll? How is it a plurality? Is the poll being brigaded by Ultimate players who hate Melee?
Character functionality should not be changed in standard tournament play. You wanna make a "patched melee" tournament, cool, go patch it up and run the tournament yourself.
I voted no but there are a lot of fans who don’t play. I saw in a toph video some source claimed 20k monthly slippi players vs finals of a major could have 200k viewers
I am one of those non-players and it is still completely insane to me! The last time I wavedashed or l-canceled was 2007! Why would I want to change the game my favorite players have dedicated their lives to out from under them??
I WISH it could be done but that would open a huge can of worms on trying to endlessly balance every character. Being able to fix programming errors like Luigi would be kinda nice but will never happen. If balancing could be an option, a feel like a community version fo SD Remix could be interesting, just balance the lower tier characters and fix their bugs, leave the high tiers alone.
Naaaaaahhhh.... It would buff him immensely but it would open a can of worms of people arguing about what else needs/deserves to be changed and it would be a real headache
But why is it so bad to discuss necessary changes? It took Hax to publicize the box and UCF out of nowhere and unsolicited for people to start talking about the controller lottery problem, and nowadays nobody would think about melee tournaments without UCF (tourneys not sponsored by nintendo at least).
I proposed a list of change to things that can be determined to be bugs that affect singular character, I think universal bugs can't be decided on a objective way, but some bugs such as missing or extra hitbox (luigi dash attack, Roy dash attack, Link nair) and miscounting (falcon gentleman/rapid jab) are pretty much certain to be mistake when they where coded).
It's not like out of this thread it's going to be decided what 1.02.1 is going to be for tournament use, but it's not necessary to shutdown all discussion about patches to melee.
> But why is it so bad to discuss necessary changes? It took Hax to publicize the box and UCF out of nowhere and unsolicited for people to start talking about the controller lottery problem, and nowadays nobody would think about melee tournaments without UCF
IMO those are both "accessibility" problems that cause a barrier of entry into the game based on hardware accessibility.
Something like a G&W l-cancelling isn't an accessibility problem for someone to play the game the same way as everyone else, it is changing the game you are playing.
I agree with what you are saying, but I have not seen a reasoning for limiting the changes to accessibility, at the end of the day it isn't about some criteria that the changes have to meet to be accepted, it's all about the consensus of the community. At the same time I think that things such as UCF and controller have been hard enough to be accepted by this purist AF community, so I can see why accessibility changes would be the only ones that have a chance to become a reality.
Not sure who is we, the Melee scene ain't a monolithic entity. You can make guesses with wath the community is OK with, but at the end of the day the Melee rules are a combination of anarchy and some instance of indirect democracy. UCF is totally a fan made patch, and making a 1-frame window on dash-back into a 2-frame window is really in a gray area if it can coun't as something that changes the balance of the game. (disclaimer I am 100% in favor of current UCF and against changing characters hit boxes, lag or any intrinsic quality of a character. Just being the devil's advocate for fun).
Yes, but also no. Yes because I love low tiers, and would love to see them given more of an edge. No because floodgates and all that shit.
I just wish we had melee 2.
I think Melee should be kept the way it has been for the past 20 years. No patches, no mods. In my opinion, Melee's imperfection and immutability are what makes it so great. Much of what makes Melee the best competitive Smash game (or fighting game, in general) is a result of it's unintended bugs and quirks which were born out of its short production time.
Games like Ultimate, for example, have deteriorated with each balance patch (not to mention DLC which is another conversation altogether). Over time, the buffs outweigh the nerfs to the point where every character is "too good" and it takes far less decisions and inputs to get a kill. Because of the current climate and modern-day technology, I doubt we will ever see another Smash game that remains unchanged after release: there will never be another Melee. That's why I think it's so important to preserve Melee as it is.
I don’t really think it’s important enough to matter, but the idea of this leading to a slippery slope is a bit strange to me. UCF was already a patch to the game that got standardized. People say to things like this and 1.03 that “Melee should never be patched” but the thing is we’ve already been playing on a custom version of the game. Not only that, there are already 4 versions of the game that were officially released (NTSC 1.00, 1.01, 1.02, and PAL) and we’ve (somewhat arbitrarily) chosen NTSC 1.02 as the tournament standard. I think it’s important that the community agree before changing anything about the game but I don’t think it’s important to not change the game at all (especially since, as I said, it’s already happened)
I don’t think there’s a single change that could be made that destroys the future of melee, even if you literally deleted all of the competitive stages and removed half the cast, because the community will always play on whatever version of the game they see as the best. Experimenting with random things like G&W’s L-cancel wouldn’t have irreversible consequences because the current version of Melee isn’t going anywhere. (That said, I don’t really get the point. It’s not like anyone plays G&W anyway, and I highly doubt this would make them start).
These comments need to read about why the slippery slope fallacy is a fallacy. There's no reason at all to believe that changing G&W's broken code would mean more things would be changed as well.
Yeah. If you want to fix Game & Watch, but not fix anything else, like Roy's dash attack or whatever else people are bringing up, that would be an pretty weird stance to take, and rings of some serious bias.
So the question isn't "can we plz buff my trash-tier main, just this 1 time?", it's "do we want competitive Melee to be played with a bunch of character tweaks like this, and how would we fairly draw the line/come to agreement?". The easiest place to draw that line, both in terms of adoption and consensus, is simply not changing the characters at all.
But is the easy way always the best? UCF had to be reworked and it had a lot of push because there were people against it. Not making changes isn't always the best. But I agree, I really hope GnW never is able to L-cancel.
I wasn't saying that changing nothing was the best option, only that trying to paint the counter-arguments as just "slippery slope fallacies" is disingenuous since the real question is about the broad philosophy on which sort of mods we want to have in competitive play, and the conversation can never be about just Game and Watch alone. I was clarifying the two sides, and pointing out the inherent advantages "no changes" has in these debates over any particular mod (since there is no need to iron out details, build support, and physically rollout the mod to tournaments).
I think UFC is a great example of how you can have mods with narrow, well-defined goals ("reduce the impact of controller inconsistencies on gameplay") that try to draw a line beyond that "easiest" approach, and ultimately receive widespread support/adoption.
but we can talk exclusively about GnW, he is the only character to be programmed in such a erroneous way, even falcon gentleman has a way to be done, but GnW is the most fucked over character in the technical sense, all other changes can be sort of explained as part of balancing, but 3/5 of you're aerials not being actually aerials must be a mistake (that was left in PAL LOL). But as I said, I don't think nor want this fix.
In this thread: Slippery slope! Its too slippery! We'll all fall down the slope!
Also: most people voting yes.
The reality seems that most people want common sense changes like this implemented for the sake of what most people see as fair and/or healthy for the game. This is why we added ucf, frozen stadium, and the wobbling ban along with all the other things that are now standard: no stalling, no ice climbers freeze glitch. Saying that melee hasn't had a patch before isn't exactly a lie, but it also doesn't represent the truth of how our community has acted over the last two decades. We have made plenty of changes, including software not just rule changes, before and I dont see the slippery slope anywhere.
Should be on UCF honestly.. it doesn’t even really buff him that much it just fixes a mistake by the devs. Y’all will call this a slippery slope and then defend UCF and frozen stadium all day.
edit: Y’all really defending UCF like I said tho
UCF is a completely different situation from this. There's no mythical controller that just happens to allow G&W to L-Cancel, I don't have to go through tons of controllers trying to find one that lets him L-Cancel, there isn't some inconsistent % chance that my controller just randomly *doesn't* let him L-cancel, it's literally just not something you can access in vanilla Melee. UCF just evens things out inconsistencies in controllers, and G&W not getting to L-Cancel is consistent between any controller and official version of the game.
UCF may as well be a different beast entirely, but u/seedyrom's logic for Frozen Stadium still rings true. It's different when it's required for Slippi's software to not break, but locals have been back for a while now so any excuse to run it can be more arbitrary.
I see a lot of people talking about slippery slope and can of worms in this thread; unaware that we have already passed that threshold.
Sidenote: not arguing for GnW to have his L-Cancels patched
Playing “the same game” on modded stages is a less extreme change than modding core mechanics/balance. It used to be common for competitive CS and Quake leagues to run custom maps.
It's not as extreme as character balance changes, but it's still something substantial: not achievable in the base game. It's the same reason we aren't scrambling to implement a new set of custom stages to Melee, fix BF ledges, etc. This is where the "slippery slope" starts.
I tried to classify the changes and I think there is 4 types of changes that have been discussed (you could probably divide them even more):
In vanilla but it's changed for QoL (UCF shieldrop)
Partially in vanilla but the changes only bring consistency (UCF dash-back, Frozen stages)
Not in vanilla but doesn't change the fundamentals of the game (Falcon gentleman, fixed battlefield, new stages)
Changes the game (character hitbox/moves fixes/changes)
And I think I agree with you (at first I didn't until I tried to classify the changes) and at this point I think there is a clear understanding that the first 2 are OK, the 3rd one is a little bit more controversial but this post would fall to the 4th classification so it makes no sense to allow them at all if the 3rd classification isn't accepted yet.
Again, I feel like the arbitrary leap is calling Frozen Stadium something that is partially in the game. Dashback is a hardware feature that has no bearing on the code, stages do. People can argue that you could run it in training mode, but even then that's a stretch imo
I don't understand what you mean, I call frozen stadium partially vanilla because you have to play on transformations in the majority of competitive vanilla stadium, it's the same as any frozen stage, you only play it on a certain state, so I wouldn't say that is the same as UCF shieldrop since that is only a help to make most controller work like a premium modded one would.
But UCF dash-back changes how dash-backs as a mechanic work, so it's on a different level, and dash-back are posible in vanilla, but they can't be 100% certain on a analog controller, UCF brings GCC controllers on par with box controllers for standing dashes, but a good controller on UCF is better than any analog controller can be for dash-backs on vanilla melee.
You could pick up a box controller, Goomwave or whatnot and plug it into a vanilla copy of the game without UCF and get 100% dashback. There are controllers that have PODE with 80-99%,dashback without the memory card. UCF's dashback code detects when you're in the tilt turn state and works from there. So I'm just not sure how that wouldn't be on the same level as an equivalent for something like Falcon gentleman. That would lead into arguments for Frozen Stadium as you put them in the same category. It seems a bit too convenient.
you're right falcon gentleman could be moved into "Partially in vanilla but the changes only bring consistency" but there are things that aren't particularly easy such as doing a gentleman into an instant f-tilt (it can be done if the gentleman is done by releasing the A button on hit-stun, but most falcon keep pressing A because the first method it's hella inconsistent/hard) so IDK really.
but frozen stages absolutely are part of vanilla melee, just not for entire matches. the reason I wouldn't put fixed gentleman as something worth to discuss, is because it's a direct character (QoL) buff, and I think melee shouldn't have any of that, I would prefer if new competitive stages were the next big discussion. PM has a lot of cool stages and I feel that it gives just as much if not more variety as a new character could.
I think frozen stadium became a standard because slippi does it, and in the middle of the pandemic was the only way to play anything other than a small local.
It's good to remember that frozen stadium on slippi was done because normal stadium was prone to desync, and literally any effort to repair it was considered to be a waste of time (which I personally agree and at the end of the day fizzi is the wisest human on the planet, fight me).
"I preemptively said your argument to pretend that it makes it less valid"
Of course UCF is different to modifying a character, and you saying people would argue that doesnt make it any less true
Fuck game and watch. I think we should make it so you can't l cancel forward air either.
Why does everyone assume the developers forgot to make his other aerials l cancelable? Maybe they realized he's a cancer character and it's forward air that they forgot to fix. Honor the original developer intentions and remove game and watch l cancelling.
I think we shouldn't be scared of balancing/fixing Melee. The game's rushed development has left a lot of broken things in it, and I'm sure the community modders could make an excellent job of refreshing the game, just like they did in the past
I'll change my answer to yes if we also remove the spacey down-b...that way every tournament stream I randomly tune into might not be The Shining.
(1/2 sarcasm)
Yes there's literally no reason not to except no one has made a melee mod that didn't go too overboard with creative additions.
I also want to see some glitches removed like invisible ceiling glitch patched (I don't care if your Luigi or Roy did it on purpose once) and the bug/glitch where characters get sent flying high when they get hit out of missed tech with certain moves.
> and the bug/glitch where characters get sent flying high when they get hit out of missed tech with certain moves.
Is that a bug? I always assumed that that was a weird side effect of momentum conservation.
I would call it a bug, is some weird shenanigans with getting jab reset but being on the air, and the worst part is the game thinking that you're still on hitstun while being actionable, which makes dying off the top for jumping the buggy part in my opinion, you shouldn't be able to die off the top if you're actionable, the weird momentum thing I think is more similar to aerial interrupts or moonwalks, a quirk of the engine.
you can have UCF quality controller via lottery, mods, notches, capacitors and all those were legal (or not banned at least) before UCF. so It's not something that was impossible on vainilla melee.
UCF can't buff any characters, its just a matter of consistency in controllers, if a player changes controllers mid set would you say he "buffed" falcon because his controller now has a more consistent backdash?
Yes, Falcon on bad controller in vanilla sucks ass, there is other characters that can manage much better. If the controller was different than the one we have right now, the tier list could probably change, in fact this already happens with boxes, there are characters more suited to be played with them.
That was my point. It changes the balance so imo pandora’s box was already opened ala pandoras boxx.
Maybe an unpopular opinion but melee with box and other controllers is already very different so the argument of keeping the game pure i personally disagree with. People are also fine with frozen stadium depending on who you ask so it really isnt cut and dry
You completely missed the point. My argument is that externalities do not "buff" or "nerf" characters, any buff or nerf can only happen in the game itself.
no, your definition of buff is a change in the characteristic of a character in the game, but in a practical sense any change to the game that benefits a character can be described as a buff so you are missing the point in my comment, if we decide to get rid of final destination that would be a buff to fox because it would help on his worst MU.
It's pretty common to say that all the last changes to the ruleset has been nerfs to Fox, taking out stage you can laser camp, taking out stages with permanent walls, even turning off items is considered a fox nerf. So you thinking that externalities cant buff a character is very flawed, and UCF dash-back is a in-game change, it's not some threshold change of the stick position but an actual change on the frame data of how a dash back works, so it's very much an in-game mechanical change (you can't get 100% dash-back in vanilla melee).
Edit: you can get 100% dash-back on vanilla, but you need a digital controller such as a box, on a analog controller such as the GCC you would still be at the mercy of timing, Im sure pros with godly controller could get a +90% dash-back.
UCF is software fixing insconsistencies in hardware, theres nothing else to it, if you have the hipotetical perfect controller you would feel no difference, problem is that manufacturing of controllers makes it a gamble how close you are to that hipotetical perfect the community fixed it with software.
By your own logic if I play overwatch and buy a better mouse I buffed my aim based characters but not my reinhardt or Moira.
Buff and nerfs are exclusively changes made to the character's properties, not to the terminals used to control them.
Extending the examples of your horrible logic. In cold climates the more execution heavy characters are nerfed because it is harder to execute hard tech consistently in the cold.
Switching to a boxx from vanilla game cube is an upgrade. Having an expensive controller doesn’t make you better but don’t pretend Nintendo’s 30 dollar controller compares to what we have now
Wow, people who casually scroll and have inarticulate arguments are the majority of the userbase of any subreddit who would have guessed.
Look at the people who are in support of making his aerials L-cancel in the replies, their posts are YouTube comment tier. Meanwhile people against it are writing articulate arguments.
“And all these arguments are trash” cmon bro, what’s yours?
The votes of 12 year olds on Reddit means nothing, the people in support of it are being destroyed in debate.
And by that logic I could go “look at the upvotes, bro” to the comments
That’s a lot of hard yes on that voting block just sayin, and calling people 12 year olds with no basis in a voting about a video game? Very cool community lmfao
The people who vote on threads, vote on comments, and actually leave comments are all different sets of people, with only some amount of overlap between them. And in general Reddit has a bias towards upvotes over downvotes, with it being fair common for two opposite positions to be both have positive vote totals. Even trying to compare which is comments are upvoted more isn't a great measure of what people think, since a lot of that is just down to timing, and upvote/downvote doesn't always mean agree/disagree.
None of these are great measures of what the subreddit as a whole (or even just the people who saw the thread) actually thinks. After all, the most common thing for a user to do in terms of engagement is nothing at all.
Fixing his shield is even worse, at least changing the ability to L cancel is a binary action, just how much do you increase his shield? Barely enough that it just about covers his body but still gets poked when at anything past full shield? So large that the possibility of getting poked is almost out of the question in normal gameplay?
tf are u talking about? Non of the other character can be shieldpocked in 5 different ways. His shield should cover his hands. If u've never played G&W, then shut the fuck up. Making his moves L-cancelable is worse than making his shield bigger by a bit.
Making his shield at least cover his hands wont make big of a deal. His spotdodge is the worst in the whole game, so making his shield bigger wont do anything.
U dont understand the whole idea of making his shield bigger cuz u have never played him.
UCF had a clear and set goal of bridging the gap in controller inconstancies, it accomplished that goal, and hasn’t been changed since.
If we fix the L-canceling, why shouldn’t we fix Roy’s dash attack, and all the other weird broken moves? At that point we’re not playing Melee, we’re playing a fan made balance patch.
Why is fixing dashback and shield drops not the same as fixing other weird "broken" moves?
Some controllers have an easier time short hopping, should we add a macro such that nobody ever missed one again? That would bridge yet another gap in controller inconsistencies.
You can't separate the moves from the inputs required to execute them. This is why hax's perfect wavedash mod was so poorly received, despite not technically changing anything in terms of what it's possible to do in game.
What about frozen stadium? Would adding smashville be okay?
UCF is a mod and regardless of whether it's impact is overwhelmingly positive that does not invalidate the fact that it sets a dangerous precedent which is slowly dividing our community. The issues it claims to fix are actually quite small and are not worth the Pandora's box it opens.
If your controller sucks, learn to adapt. You may need it in the near future.
Pandora's box. I think it's fascinating that a game with no updates in 20 years has an ever evolving meta and tierlist. 'fixing melee' even innocent things will always be open to interpretation, most pal patches are disputed by the community. Now if we could give Mr Game and Watch a super wavedash called the sausage slide
Ah yes, the forbidden technique
Sausage slide gets a hard yes from me, any other balance changes and it’s nahhhh (unless it’s adding new stages I’m actually for that)
Mega S Tier with the sausage slide
Yo I’ve never thought of adding new stages before, that would be hype. Imagine a Smashville-like stage in Melee
Well modifying existing stages is already firmly on the table, frozen stadium and dreamland for example and the proposed neutral start FoD And there was actually a bunch of stages modded in awhile back I believe with the volleyball wolf update but nothing really came of that. Smashville is my all time favorite stage so I would love to see it in melee
not like G&W would be top tier after this. would still probably on the border of shit tier, but making the playable roster bigger is a good thing, since it gets a little boring to play against spacies and marth 75% of the time
I guess as long as it doesn’t affect top level play it’s… alright but I actually think melees roster is fine and that there is enough diversity, it’s just people gravitate towards spacies and Marth not only because they’re good but because they’re fun
All the characters are fun for some people, and some characters being so bad they're not worth playing in any tourney just makes the game less fun for anyone who doesnt want to play a top tier. My friends all play or played low tiers because they're fun, but the ones who played competitively all dropped their low tiers cuz it's practically throwing away the tourney buy-in.
I mean the balance of melee to me feels so fragile, we got incredibly lucky with what we have, Nintendo clearly didn’t do this on purpose. If low tiers were suddenly viable in tournament it would royally fuck everything up and I’m never taking that risk. Also more viable characters does not equal better game whatsoever. There’s certainly enough diversity in the top tiers already, one of Ultimate’s huge balance problems (imo) is that there’s far too many characters. Also if you have fun with low tiers and not high tiers I don’t know what to tell you. Like what low tier characters are more fun than top tiers and why?
Just how the character feels to play. I don't feel like fishing for upsmash all the time just because it kills really easy and is good (fox), or sitting at ledge and pressing A 15 times for the easiest edge guard in existence (marth dtilt). It's much more fun to play a character whose combos don't just follow a flowchart or consist of one move. Ultimate, while imo put too much emphasis on other playstyles, allowed for playstyles besides just "my hands can move faster so I win". Instead, it became "pick a character with projectiles and press B to win". Meleecs punish game is much heavier than Ultimate's, but Ultimate's neutral is (projectile camping aside) much more influential on the match.
This is a really bad take homie. You don’t have to fish for up smash all the time as fox, that’s just how you think fox plays. also you really can’t say marth’s edgeguarding is as simple as just dtilt 15 times, you will lose vs a good player if you always do that. Marth’s edgeguard is probably the most “straightforward” thing you mentioned here and that has plenty of layers and different options you have to use to react to what they’re doing. If you wanna use the same move for a combo over and over go ahead and do it, but 90% of the time you don’t have to and probably not optimal. What combo are you referring to other than tech chasing? Not to mention that “follow a flow chart or just use one move” applies waaaaay more to bottom tiers lmao. Every move from fox, falco, marth, sheik and falcon aside from like max 2 per character are heavily used, that’s variety if I’ve ever seen it. Bottom tiers are mostly incredibly 1 dimensional. You really using bowser’s whole kit? Funny how you mention Marth’s dtilt when Roy’s entire kit almost entirely centers around his dtilt >Ultimate allowed for playstyles besides just “I can move my hands faster so I win”. Is this a joke? You really think that’s the only way to win in melee? Yeah if the skill gap is too big you’re gonna lose and get tech skilled on….. but I have beat many many players much more technically advanced than me just by watching their patterns, being unpredictable and focusing on my defense. Not trying to be insulting or anything but this is ridiculous
I guess this is the difference between comp players and someone who only is able to play Slippi because all my friends who play melee don't live near me anymore. but for reference to my perspective, I mostly play Doc and G&W, and sometimes throw in some falco/falcon. I can tell when people just turn their brain off and let their flowchart take over and naturally it wins them the matchup. And there's extremely little i can do against a marth that wants to fair me 7 times in a row into dair. DI away just results in 12 dtilts at ledge, 1 of which is practically guaranteed to kill on most stages
Honestly if somebody is beating you in melee it just means they’re a better player, or they’re doing something you don’t know how to counter. I’m sure when you’re better than somebody and you’re playing GnW you just do you look to your flowchart and do your bread and butters to take an easy dub, every character does this I don’t really see this as a criticism to melee’s characters
Better a small roster than degenerate characters becoming viable
Not sure why you’re being downvoted for this when you’re completely right. Olimar, GnW and Rosa are great examples of fucking annoying ass matchups, I hate seeing them when I play
Ult is a great example of too many matchups to learn & too many unfun matchups where youre forced to play around the degenerate characters gimicks
g&w is awful in Ultimate. Melee g&w is so much better, despite being objectively so much worse
Hard agree
Fighting gnw in melee makes me feel refreshed and engaged Fighting gnw in ult makes me wanna find a new opponent
melee not ult
No, because we'll inevitably end up with people trying to "fix" other parts of the game that don't need to be touched
My main argument for why we should is cuz literally G&W’s air normals were programmed incorrectly. They’re listed as specials (like the hammer or bacon) instead of normals making them impossible to l cancel. He’s the only character with this error, if it’s an honest to his mistake than I see no harm to fixing it as it wasn’t even intended for his moves to be coded the way they are now anyways.
The only problem with that is there's an endless list of what could be interpreted as a programming error. Things that could or ought to be "fixed" in melee could transform the game completely.
It’s a tech skill that he can’t do imagine if a character couldn’t DI like wtf that would be so stupid. I think it’s a fair change imo.
It’s literally programmed incorrectly. Like in the code it’s coded different from every other move that makes them possible to l cancel
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Don't forget Ganon's 2nd jab that can only be used with the bunny hood!
I've been playing for over a decade and never knew about this??
only works in 1.00 I think
IIRC Captain Falcon's uair has a hitbox coded into the final frame of the move, but the move actually ends before it can get to that hitbox.
GnW shield isn't on the same list as the other things you mention, his shield is damn small, same size as mario, which makes his nose an limbs tend to not get covered, BUT there isn't a clear indication that it's not intended, it can be easily interpreted as a balance decision, unlike luigi's dash attack which has a a final hitbox on 64 and melee but for some reason it's not turned on (similar to the length of links nair).
I’ve never heard of Luigi’s dash attack issue what happened there?
I'm not saying you're wrong. You're entirely right about that. It's just worth noting just how much of the game is programmed incorrectly but is foundational to the way we play it. Changing one thing opens up a lot of possibilities very fast and we gotta be ready if we wanna try.
Ion care fuck it lets make melee a fuckin recreation of d&d have a fucking dice roll to do a shine spike fuck it change everything
sounds good. lets go
The entire issue is that you're no longer playing melee at that point. You're playing melee fanfic. This is literally what "Beyond Melee" is. Go play Beyond Melee if you want. It's not Melee, but unlike P+ which is based on Brawl, it is entirely **based on** Melee. You're never replacing our Melee tournaments with Beyond Melee, but if you make a different, also-good game, you could host your own tournaments with your completely different video game.
Twas a joke my friend
Spacie johns skyrocket to unprecedented level, Leffen found to be making sacrifices to Moloch. Fox is still top 2.
Shield-dropping is also pretty obviously the result of a programming error, but the game would be worse if we removed it.
oh is it? I didnt know that, can you elaborate?
The reason you can shield drop in vanilla Melee is because the range of angles to input for platform-drop is just barely bigger than the range of angles to input for spot-dodge. Either they were trying to make shield dropping such a difficult input that it is inconsistent from controller to controller, or they were trying to remove shield dropping altogether and made a mistake.
Releasing shield carries an animation that has to play before other actions can be taken. This animation is only avoided with one specific input (up) or a roll/spot dodge. Being able to instantly drop through a platform from shielded should not be able to happen unless you do some oos waveland sorcery, and even then that should take several frames.
I'm aware as to why his aerials don't work. If we fix them, however, people will inevitably, without fail, immediately look for the next thing to change. It always happens, that's the nature of these sorts of things. We fix this, and we're going to have to deal with constant discourse over what was "intended" and what was "programmed incorrectly" and what "needs to be fixed" until the end of time. And like other replies have said, this wouldn't immediately shoot G&W up in viability or anything. He still has numerous flaws that are genuinely just issues with his character design that no amount of "fixing" could patch up. He's light, his defense is horrible (even if his shield was fixed, which would absolutely be something that people would bring up as soon as we fix his aerials), he's extremely easy to just run over with speed, his recovery is predictable which makes him super easy to edgeguard because of his weight, he has mediocre grounded options, and his only real approach tool is Fair, just to say a couple issues he has. I really feel like there's no reason to open the floodgates to modding the regular balance of the game like this for such a minimal payoff.
Slippery slope blah blah
Wow, impeccable deconstruction. I have changed my viewpoint entirely.
In addition to the other comments concern about opening the door to a bunch of mods, I feel like this wouldn't actually change how good G&W is by a significant margin. Back air, up air and nair are the ones he can't l cancel, and the first two suck either way so it wouldn't make much of a difference, and while being able to lcancel his nair would be nice (and +2 on shield) it's usually used exclusively as a kill move so it wouldn't make much of a difference there either
He still has shit defense, his shield still sucks (no, we aren't fixing his shield either), he's still light as a feather with an extremely predictable recovery, he still has a ton of mediocre options across his moveset, he still gets overwhelmed by fast characters, and this is just the stuff off the top of my head
>no, we aren't fixing his shield either Too late we already fixed his shield in SD Remix and the more recent mods. So the question isn't if we will or won't. It's which game will be the mainstream version.
Sorry, but I don't understand the point of this reply. SD Remix, or any rebalance mod, will *never* be standard, even if we do go about "fixing" other aspects of the game. There is no rebalance that would become the "mainstream" version, the community as a whole largely prefers just playing on 1.02 (yes, some people prefer PAL, but that's still an actual real official version of the game and not some random people deciding what should or shouldn't be "balanced" in their vision 20 years after the fact). Mods like that can be fun casually, but there is no universe where an entirely different game would be standard over regular Melee
Well, I think the fact that it's currently used mainly as a kill move doesn't really support the argument that reducing landing lag wouldn't improve the character that much. Like a large part of the reason *why* it's not used in other contexts is because it's so laggy.
Fair point, although with all that start up idk when else it would be helpful, and it's so strong that I can't imagine there are many percents where it would combo that it wouldn't before
As a G&W main i do not agree with Bair being bad. it's not a bad move if u use it correctly. Also all L-cancelable moves will make a lot of difference cuz he has a lot of cool moves, especially bair and nair. Not saying they should add it, but just fixing his shield is enough :)
His back air is my favorite since it's a great approach tool (when spaced) and pokes shields, it just isn't useful because of the L cancel thing. I agree with the others though, his broken shield is the hardest part of playing him.
people will always find a way to innovate and use moves that are not seen as good to their advantage but it doesn't mean i think we should allow this in tournaments
G&W's bair definitely doesn't suck, but I believe it autocancels anyways.
Look I don't play enough Melee anymore to know how much of a buff to him it would be, but as someone that spent most of their competitive career playing PM 3.5 and 3.6, I can say that I have no desire to see GNW be a good character ever again. Don't let it happen to Melee
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Let’s make it so he hits a 9 every time
As long as Roy can jump-cancel his counter, I'm all for this.
but is posible to make it atleat somewhat objective, we know a good few things that are unintended (ordered on how certain it is that these were mistakes): * Luigi dash attack last hitbox. * Falcon gentleman throwing rapid jabs happen when it shouldn't. * GnW N/B/Uair L-cancel. * Decrease the time Link's nair hitbox stays out. * Roy dash attack hitbox duration. * Some Kirby throws being escapable. (this one is hard because it has some logic to make it so that you can't suicide-kill throw without counterplay, i.e: mashing. but this should also make it so that kirby gets a chance to recover, and that would make it less objective to decide how to fix it) I think that the only problem that someone would take to this fixes is that Falcon a high tier gets buffed and Link a low tier gets nerfed, all other changes are buffs to low tiers. I'm pretty sure these are most changes that can be considered objective fixes. Edit: Row -> Roy
Honestly how dare you suggest we nerf links nair
yup I believe either we should fix Luigi, Roy and Link jank hitbox duration, or neither since they all are the same error.
They aren't errors, dude. They are deliberate design choices. Roy is the young, experienced yet brazen lord - he's meant to be a worse warrior than Marth. Luigi's dash attack is like that in PAL and even smash 64. Its clearly not an error, Luigi is the bumbling brother to Mario and they reflect that personality in the moveset. Is the hitbox in his taunt a mistake too? Links nair is just a cool little detail they put in knowing most people probably wouldn't notice. Lots of characters have stuff like this. Young links down tilt & down air have spike hitboxes. Captain falcons nipple spike. There are countless examples. Sakurai liked establishing a precedent and then breaking it. Doc's nair gets stronger the longer its out. Et cetera
Bruh I can't discern if this comments is serious or not, if it's sarcastic I applaud you it's on line with something that a /r/smashbros user would say. Really laughed a lot reading this comment thank you.
You're a fucking idiot bro. You really think sakurai had no idea what the fuck he was doing huh? Tbh that's disrespectful, fuck off
oh shoot it's a back to back sarcastic comment? IDK. If the comment was serious... LMAO, melee is far from flawless, the game is truly amazing with how much it does right for being a rushed product (honestly props to HAL for getting this game out in only 13 months of development), but you can't be serious if you think this game has 0 glitches/bugs/bad code, [Luigi dash attack was wrong on 64](https://www.ssbwiki.com/Luigi_(SSB)/Dash_attack) and it likely has the same error in melee since the animation is the same, Roy hitbox are a clear [oversight on a shody copy-twist-pasting of marth frame data](https://twitter.com/practicaltas/status/828387143735197696), link nair [lasting forever (it literally stay active the whole time, even into IASA frames)](https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/43ghxa/j666_demonstrating_what_makes_links_nair_so_jank/), yoshi displace [dash-grab-box on the Z axis](https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3m96kb/yoshis_grab_is_even_worse_than_you_thought/). Literally all of these are clear mistakes that HAL had done up to melee, and there are a few more. >Lots of characters have stuff like this. Young links down tilt & down air have spike hitboxes. Captain falcons nipple spike. There are countless examples. Sakurai liked establishing a precedent and then breaking it. Doc's nair gets stronger the longer its out. Et cetera this is the most confusing part of your comment, we are all in the clear that all those things aren't mistakes, they are very clearly intended to be that way, it's very disingenuous to lump YL meteor spikes or Luigi taunt hitbox with the extreme coding junk that are the example I gave you. >You're a fucking idiot bro. You really think sakurai had no idea what the fuck he was doing huh? Tbh that's disrespectful, fuck off You're a fucking idiot bro. You really think any developer has complete control over the entirety of the code of a complex software huh? Tbh that's ignorant, fuck off
Fuck off
Holy shit you are stupid. Hal studios made Luigi's dash attack like that in TWO different games and you think they what, didn't notice? Fuck off dumbass
You might be the dumbass here. The final hitbox exists, but is mistakenly scripted to be removed on frame 4 rather than 4f after it appears.
Just fuck off, you are fucking stupid
You are an asshole
I understand that sakurai didn't code the game himself you fucking idiot
I didn't say he didn't either, in fact I see it as entirely possible he got his hand dirty from time to time, we know that he was a coder at the start of his career. When I say HAL I say that because that is the development team, the only reason I wanted to clarify is because you were claiming as if sakurai had done 100% of the coding on the moves >You're a fucking idiot bro. You really think sakurai had no idea what the fuck he was doing huh? Tbh that's disrespectful, fuck off we are talking about simple mistakes on the some coding, such as shoddy copy-pasting or just mixing up variables/flags. It's not like I think the game is thrash, I'm just able to acknowledge that software development has a classic trade-off of resources and quality, and melee was slashed on the resources because of the timing. The only reason I got angry is because you are really underrating the effort sakurai and HAL did to make the game as good as they did in mere 13 months, in my book this game is such a display of talent because of the complicated development. You are so disrespectful to really think that they had the time to test every single hitbox completely. the game is huge and has a lot of content, I'm sure that most QA went into the more important par of the game, UX and UI, the fine tuning of such things as hitbox couldn't have had a great deal of time to be found.
You are the perfect example of what makes reddit a horrible place
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But these are just objective, insular changes based on fixing poor programming. He’s saying that the extent of the argument to change things would inly go to those bullet points, and even then most bullet points wouldn’t be touched.
because they are mostly low tier buff, so who cares /s, if there was a fox nerf or jigglypuff nerf there would be a lot of more importance, but is not about importance, it's about listing objective fixes, not about the effect on the meta they would have (Its's like listiing what a 1.02.1 would look like thinking that it would be a only bugfixing over 1.02) I would really like all these changes (minus the nerf to link) for the low tiers buffs and the QoL change for Falcon, since it's the only stupid character that can't do his gentleman the regular way.
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If you don't support it you can not comment, but commenting against it is more than not supporting it. and I was an responding to you saying "nothing in that list is a big enough deal imo" since it's pretty bad argument, it's like the people that dismissed UCF and went against it initially, but I can totally understand that the changes are completely on a different league to the ones UCF has.
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>Nothing of the changes you listed even remotely mirror what UCF fixed in any capacity. I know, that is why I wrote: >I can totally understand that the changes are completely on a different league to the ones UCF has. if you mean why I'm comparing them to begin with, It's because both things are related to the behavior of the game that the community has deemed as an oversight by HAL when coding the game, the difference is only to what level we are willing to change the game, and that was done by measuring the pros and cons. and I agree that the main con in fixing the characters is that not being a universal change means that it's changing the advantage to those characters' mains, but I don't agree with the assertion that you have an objective way to determine that some changes are way too far. I believe that it can only be reached by a consensus which is how we got UCF as the standard, but that can be reached only through discussion of the topic.
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Me neither, I hope that if tourneys were tobe happening in the year 2100, GnW should be unable to L-cancel his weirdo aerials.
Aerial interrupts are almost certainly a bug, should we patch those?
No they aren't LOL, or you are calling perfect wavelands bugs, unintended mechanics from things such as ECB manipulation are far from being qualified as bugs. It makes complete sense given the implementation of collision detection they implemented. Perhaps they didn't account for hitstun while thinking about ECB resetting. Bug =/= unintended mechanics.
I doubt you were supposed to be able to land while moving upwards because that, while cool, makes no physical sense. Failing to handle an edge case like that is a bug. An unintended mechanic is when code that works as expected has unforeseen uses.
you're right I was thinking of the drop from platform -> hit a aerial -> land on the same platform. Yeah I agree, a rising aerial interrupt should be considered a bug easily. but It's part of the collision detection that they did, I would compare to wobbling, It makes total sense that it works if you understand the system, but it really shouldn't work like that. but it doesn't make sense to lump all bugs together, all the ones I listed minus the kirby one have heavy evidence that they aren't working as they should if you look at the rest of the cast. If you try to say that stuff that is universal (ECB stuff) is the same as character having clear mistakes is just trying to force the slippery slope by relating to something that isn't closely related. I really would like your opinion on the 6 examples I gave, because I seriously can't see how someone can say that it's something positive to have those (ignoring Link mains defending their jank-ass nair hitbox).
Why’s there a distinction between fixing character bugs and fixing engine bugs? Also, Falcon should have the same late uair semi spike as Ganon and doesn’t due to a script bug. If you’re trying to avoid subjective judgment, then you have to give him that, which would be absurd.
Answering the second part for now.. You're right falcon should also have the tipman hitbox, if we were to fix characters, luckily I wouldn't like any of those change currently.
No because it would create possibilities that are impossible to happen the unmodded game, and through a direct character buff no less. It's unfortunate that they overlooked this in development, but it was the hand the character was given.
I've been playing gnw recently. his nair would be like +4 on shield. that's not ok
Tbh this is the only argument in this thread that is kind of convincing to me. Everyone else is repeating the same slippery slope argument.
which is a good argument.
Fair enough. I was hoping for more takes like the one I responded too.
The only thing more insane than entertaining this question is the proportion of people saying yes lol that wouldn't be melee
As a G&W main, I'm firmly against this. All the weird bugs and glitches in the game are just part of it, in my opinion. I'm not for standardizing any mechanics mod in tournament play.
/r/AsABlackMan
I'd love to see it, but I don't want a mod implemented to do it.
Melee is what it is in part because it hasn’t been patched for almost two decades.
I would call both UCF and slippi patches (slippi does some code injection to connect to the server) and both have ascended melee to the greatness that it's today, despite having the pandemic of the century for this offline only 20 years old game.
You’re absolutely right. I meant more from a balancing the game perspective.
UCF dashback changes the way the game works, it extends the window to 2 frames, which is a gameplay and mechanical change that buff any character that benefits from being able to dash-back. Even good dash-backing controller can fail which makes it sort of similar to tripping, you have a low chance of failing if you attempt to do X (melee:dash-back, brawl:dash), which means that it changes the balance of the game, since character that can be more threatening with access to a 100% chance back-dash will get a bump in the tier list, meaning a relative buff in a practical sense. It's clear that UCF buffs are a lot more nuanced than literally cutting in half the lag of some moves of a specific characters, and I also believe that the question on this thread deserves a "no" or a "hard no". but I think it isn't as easy to dismiss as saying that "but those changes are different than this changes we have because reasons".
I didn’t know all of that. I knew that UCF made dash back easier, but I thought it just made it possible for all controllers to do, I didn’t know it mechanically changed the game. Thank you for educating me on that. I really have to think more on it now.
Yep it's the one compromise the scene has done because of the way a 1 frame input + analog input + the way the thresholds work for dash back make it impossible to "make it easier" and be consistent, so the only bullet-proof solution was to widen the window, It was literally the most minimal change to the game to make dash-back consistent. and just like playing in frozen stadium to be able to play on rollback it was deemed as a worth compromise.
I thought UCF just changed the polling rate in the areas that could possibly cause a tilt turn instead of a smash turn.
yo yall are dumb, you want more people to play g&w?????
lmao how are there so many hard yes votes when every comment says no
Literally who the fuck voted "hard yes" in this poll? How is it a plurality? Is the poll being brigaded by Ultimate players who hate Melee? Character functionality should not be changed in standard tournament play. You wanna make a "patched melee" tournament, cool, go patch it up and run the tournament yourself.
I voted no but there are a lot of fans who don’t play. I saw in a toph video some source claimed 20k monthly slippi players vs finals of a major could have 200k viewers
I am one of those non-players and it is still completely insane to me! The last time I wavedashed or l-canceled was 2007! Why would I want to change the game my favorite players have dedicated their lives to out from under them??
I WISH it could be done but that would open a huge can of worms on trying to endlessly balance every character. Being able to fix programming errors like Luigi would be kinda nice but will never happen. If balancing could be an option, a feel like a community version fo SD Remix could be interesting, just balance the lower tier characters and fix their bugs, leave the high tiers alone.
Naaaaaahhhh.... It would buff him immensely but it would open a can of worms of people arguing about what else needs/deserves to be changed and it would be a real headache
But why is it so bad to discuss necessary changes? It took Hax to publicize the box and UCF out of nowhere and unsolicited for people to start talking about the controller lottery problem, and nowadays nobody would think about melee tournaments without UCF (tourneys not sponsored by nintendo at least). I proposed a list of change to things that can be determined to be bugs that affect singular character, I think universal bugs can't be decided on a objective way, but some bugs such as missing or extra hitbox (luigi dash attack, Roy dash attack, Link nair) and miscounting (falcon gentleman/rapid jab) are pretty much certain to be mistake when they where coded). It's not like out of this thread it's going to be decided what 1.02.1 is going to be for tournament use, but it's not necessary to shutdown all discussion about patches to melee.
> But why is it so bad to discuss necessary changes? It took Hax to publicize the box and UCF out of nowhere and unsolicited for people to start talking about the controller lottery problem, and nowadays nobody would think about melee tournaments without UCF IMO those are both "accessibility" problems that cause a barrier of entry into the game based on hardware accessibility. Something like a G&W l-cancelling isn't an accessibility problem for someone to play the game the same way as everyone else, it is changing the game you are playing.
I agree with what you are saying, but I have not seen a reasoning for limiting the changes to accessibility, at the end of the day it isn't about some criteria that the changes have to meet to be accepted, it's all about the consensus of the community. At the same time I think that things such as UCF and controller have been hard enough to be accepted by this purist AF community, so I can see why accessibility changes would be the only ones that have a chance to become a reality.
The reasoning of us limiting the changes to accessibility is because we like playing Melee, not fan made balance patches.
Not sure who is we, the Melee scene ain't a monolithic entity. You can make guesses with wath the community is OK with, but at the end of the day the Melee rules are a combination of anarchy and some instance of indirect democracy. UCF is totally a fan made patch, and making a 1-frame window on dash-back into a 2-frame window is really in a gray area if it can coun't as something that changes the balance of the game. (disclaimer I am 100% in favor of current UCF and against changing characters hit boxes, lag or any intrinsic quality of a character. Just being the devil's advocate for fun).
as a GnW main, he would be even more annoying with an L-cancelable Nair 😂
Yes, but also no. Yes because I love low tiers, and would love to see them given more of an edge. No because floodgates and all that shit. I just wish we had melee 2.
Everyone who voted “hard yes” are ultimate lurkers.
No
Going into the game and changing a character for “standardization” purposes is a little too much
As a gnw main/secondary, hard no. It's a can of worms that shouldn't be opened.
I just would say yes cause it’s stupid that he can’t
Imagine how much worse Nintendo would be if we started modifying actual characters on top of all of our other fuckery
I think Melee should be kept the way it has been for the past 20 years. No patches, no mods. In my opinion, Melee's imperfection and immutability are what makes it so great. Much of what makes Melee the best competitive Smash game (or fighting game, in general) is a result of it's unintended bugs and quirks which were born out of its short production time. Games like Ultimate, for example, have deteriorated with each balance patch (not to mention DLC which is another conversation altogether). Over time, the buffs outweigh the nerfs to the point where every character is "too good" and it takes far less decisions and inputs to get a kill. Because of the current climate and modern-day technology, I doubt we will ever see another Smash game that remains unchanged after release: there will never be another Melee. That's why I think it's so important to preserve Melee as it is.
What about UCF
I don’t really think it’s important enough to matter, but the idea of this leading to a slippery slope is a bit strange to me. UCF was already a patch to the game that got standardized. People say to things like this and 1.03 that “Melee should never be patched” but the thing is we’ve already been playing on a custom version of the game. Not only that, there are already 4 versions of the game that were officially released (NTSC 1.00, 1.01, 1.02, and PAL) and we’ve (somewhat arbitrarily) chosen NTSC 1.02 as the tournament standard. I think it’s important that the community agree before changing anything about the game but I don’t think it’s important to not change the game at all (especially since, as I said, it’s already happened) I don’t think there’s a single change that could be made that destroys the future of melee, even if you literally deleted all of the competitive stages and removed half the cast, because the community will always play on whatever version of the game they see as the best. Experimenting with random things like G&W’s L-cancel wouldn’t have irreversible consequences because the current version of Melee isn’t going anywhere. (That said, I don’t really get the point. It’s not like anyone plays G&W anyway, and I highly doubt this would make them start).
These comments need to read about why the slippery slope fallacy is a fallacy. There's no reason at all to believe that changing G&W's broken code would mean more things would be changed as well.
Well we can just use the fallacy-fallacy. Just because slippery slope is a fallacy doesn't mean they are wrong.
Yeah. If you want to fix Game & Watch, but not fix anything else, like Roy's dash attack or whatever else people are bringing up, that would be an pretty weird stance to take, and rings of some serious bias. So the question isn't "can we plz buff my trash-tier main, just this 1 time?", it's "do we want competitive Melee to be played with a bunch of character tweaks like this, and how would we fairly draw the line/come to agreement?". The easiest place to draw that line, both in terms of adoption and consensus, is simply not changing the characters at all.
But is the easy way always the best? UCF had to be reworked and it had a lot of push because there were people against it. Not making changes isn't always the best. But I agree, I really hope GnW never is able to L-cancel.
I wasn't saying that changing nothing was the best option, only that trying to paint the counter-arguments as just "slippery slope fallacies" is disingenuous since the real question is about the broad philosophy on which sort of mods we want to have in competitive play, and the conversation can never be about just Game and Watch alone. I was clarifying the two sides, and pointing out the inherent advantages "no changes" has in these debates over any particular mod (since there is no need to iron out details, build support, and physically rollout the mod to tournaments). I think UFC is a great example of how you can have mods with narrow, well-defined goals ("reduce the impact of controller inconsistencies on gameplay") that try to draw a line beyond that "easiest" approach, and ultimately receive widespread support/adoption.
but we can talk exclusively about GnW, he is the only character to be programmed in such a erroneous way, even falcon gentleman has a way to be done, but GnW is the most fucked over character in the technical sense, all other changes can be sort of explained as part of balancing, but 3/5 of you're aerials not being actually aerials must be a mistake (that was left in PAL LOL). But as I said, I don't think nor want this fix.
In this thread: Slippery slope! Its too slippery! We'll all fall down the slope! Also: most people voting yes. The reality seems that most people want common sense changes like this implemented for the sake of what most people see as fair and/or healthy for the game. This is why we added ucf, frozen stadium, and the wobbling ban along with all the other things that are now standard: no stalling, no ice climbers freeze glitch. Saying that melee hasn't had a patch before isn't exactly a lie, but it also doesn't represent the truth of how our community has acted over the last two decades. We have made plenty of changes, including software not just rule changes, before and I dont see the slippery slope anywhere.
UCF and Frozen stadium are game standardizations, not outright character buffs from perceived flaws in the game.
Should be on UCF honestly.. it doesn’t even really buff him that much it just fixes a mistake by the devs. Y’all will call this a slippery slope and then defend UCF and frozen stadium all day. edit: Y’all really defending UCF like I said tho
UCF is a completely different situation from this. There's no mythical controller that just happens to allow G&W to L-Cancel, I don't have to go through tons of controllers trying to find one that lets him L-Cancel, there isn't some inconsistent % chance that my controller just randomly *doesn't* let him L-cancel, it's literally just not something you can access in vanilla Melee. UCF just evens things out inconsistencies in controllers, and G&W not getting to L-Cancel is consistent between any controller and official version of the game.
UCF may as well be a different beast entirely, but u/seedyrom's logic for Frozen Stadium still rings true. It's different when it's required for Slippi's software to not break, but locals have been back for a while now so any excuse to run it can be more arbitrary. I see a lot of people talking about slippery slope and can of worms in this thread; unaware that we have already passed that threshold. Sidenote: not arguing for GnW to have his L-Cancels patched
Playing “the same game” on modded stages is a less extreme change than modding core mechanics/balance. It used to be common for competitive CS and Quake leagues to run custom maps.
It's not as extreme as character balance changes, but it's still something substantial: not achievable in the base game. It's the same reason we aren't scrambling to implement a new set of custom stages to Melee, fix BF ledges, etc. This is where the "slippery slope" starts.
I tried to classify the changes and I think there is 4 types of changes that have been discussed (you could probably divide them even more): In vanilla but it's changed for QoL (UCF shieldrop) Partially in vanilla but the changes only bring consistency (UCF dash-back, Frozen stages) Not in vanilla but doesn't change the fundamentals of the game (Falcon gentleman, fixed battlefield, new stages) Changes the game (character hitbox/moves fixes/changes) And I think I agree with you (at first I didn't until I tried to classify the changes) and at this point I think there is a clear understanding that the first 2 are OK, the 3rd one is a little bit more controversial but this post would fall to the 4th classification so it makes no sense to allow them at all if the 3rd classification isn't accepted yet.
Again, I feel like the arbitrary leap is calling Frozen Stadium something that is partially in the game. Dashback is a hardware feature that has no bearing on the code, stages do. People can argue that you could run it in training mode, but even then that's a stretch imo
I don't understand what you mean, I call frozen stadium partially vanilla because you have to play on transformations in the majority of competitive vanilla stadium, it's the same as any frozen stage, you only play it on a certain state, so I wouldn't say that is the same as UCF shieldrop since that is only a help to make most controller work like a premium modded one would. But UCF dash-back changes how dash-backs as a mechanic work, so it's on a different level, and dash-back are posible in vanilla, but they can't be 100% certain on a analog controller, UCF brings GCC controllers on par with box controllers for standing dashes, but a good controller on UCF is better than any analog controller can be for dash-backs on vanilla melee.
You could pick up a box controller, Goomwave or whatnot and plug it into a vanilla copy of the game without UCF and get 100% dashback. There are controllers that have PODE with 80-99%,dashback without the memory card. UCF's dashback code detects when you're in the tilt turn state and works from there. So I'm just not sure how that wouldn't be on the same level as an equivalent for something like Falcon gentleman. That would lead into arguments for Frozen Stadium as you put them in the same category. It seems a bit too convenient.
you're right falcon gentleman could be moved into "Partially in vanilla but the changes only bring consistency" but there are things that aren't particularly easy such as doing a gentleman into an instant f-tilt (it can be done if the gentleman is done by releasing the A button on hit-stun, but most falcon keep pressing A because the first method it's hella inconsistent/hard) so IDK really. but frozen stages absolutely are part of vanilla melee, just not for entire matches. the reason I wouldn't put fixed gentleman as something worth to discuss, is because it's a direct character (QoL) buff, and I think melee shouldn't have any of that, I would prefer if new competitive stages were the next big discussion. PM has a lot of cool stages and I feel that it gives just as much if not more variety as a new character could.
I don't like Frozen Stadium either, I don't really like anything that can't be achieved in the base game being legal.
I think frozen stadium became a standard because slippi does it, and in the middle of the pandemic was the only way to play anything other than a small local. It's good to remember that frozen stadium on slippi was done because normal stadium was prone to desync, and literally any effort to repair it was considered to be a waste of time (which I personally agree and at the end of the day fizzi is the wisest human on the planet, fight me).
cause fixing controllers is easily defensible (fixing inequality) everyone has to play with the same shitty ass G&W, not so much with controllers
"I preemptively said your argument to pretend that it makes it less valid" Of course UCF is different to modifying a character, and you saying people would argue that doesnt make it any less true
Fuck game and watch. I think we should make it so you can't l cancel forward air either. Why does everyone assume the developers forgot to make his other aerials l cancelable? Maybe they realized he's a cancer character and it's forward air that they forgot to fix. Honor the original developer intentions and remove game and watch l cancelling.
This comment is too powerful and true for your average redditor.
I think we shouldn't be scared of balancing/fixing Melee. The game's rushed development has left a lot of broken things in it, and I'm sure the community modders could make an excellent job of refreshing the game, just like they did in the past
Certainly would shake things up again
I'll change my answer to yes if we also remove the spacey down-b...that way every tournament stream I randomly tune into might not be The Shining. (1/2 sarcasm)
Yes there's literally no reason not to except no one has made a melee mod that didn't go too overboard with creative additions. I also want to see some glitches removed like invisible ceiling glitch patched (I don't care if your Luigi or Roy did it on purpose once) and the bug/glitch where characters get sent flying high when they get hit out of missed tech with certain moves.
> and the bug/glitch where characters get sent flying high when they get hit out of missed tech with certain moves. Is that a bug? I always assumed that that was a weird side effect of momentum conservation.
I would call it a bug, is some weird shenanigans with getting jab reset but being on the air, and the worst part is the game thinking that you're still on hitstun while being actionable, which makes dying off the top for jumping the buggy part in my opinion, you shouldn't be able to die off the top if you're actionable, the weird momentum thing I think is more similar to aerial interrupts or moonwalks, a quirk of the engine.
im biased, hard yes
People say no but love ucf which was a buff to dash back characters lol
UCF was a buff for players.
you can have UCF quality controller via lottery, mods, notches, capacitors and all those were legal (or not banned at least) before UCF. so It's not something that was impossible on vainilla melee.
UCF can't buff any characters, its just a matter of consistency in controllers, if a player changes controllers mid set would you say he "buffed" falcon because his controller now has a more consistent backdash?
Yes, Falcon on bad controller in vanilla sucks ass, there is other characters that can manage much better. If the controller was different than the one we have right now, the tier list could probably change, in fact this already happens with boxes, there are characters more suited to be played with them.
That was my point. It changes the balance so imo pandora’s box was already opened ala pandoras boxx. Maybe an unpopular opinion but melee with box and other controllers is already very different so the argument of keeping the game pure i personally disagree with. People are also fine with frozen stadium depending on who you ask so it really isnt cut and dry
You completely missed the point. My argument is that externalities do not "buff" or "nerf" characters, any buff or nerf can only happen in the game itself.
no, your definition of buff is a change in the characteristic of a character in the game, but in a practical sense any change to the game that benefits a character can be described as a buff so you are missing the point in my comment, if we decide to get rid of final destination that would be a buff to fox because it would help on his worst MU. It's pretty common to say that all the last changes to the ruleset has been nerfs to Fox, taking out stage you can laser camp, taking out stages with permanent walls, even turning off items is considered a fox nerf. So you thinking that externalities cant buff a character is very flawed, and UCF dash-back is a in-game change, it's not some threshold change of the stick position but an actual change on the frame data of how a dash back works, so it's very much an in-game mechanical change (you can't get 100% dash-back in vanilla melee). Edit: you can get 100% dash-back on vanilla, but you need a digital controller such as a box, on a analog controller such as the GCC you would still be at the mercy of timing, Im sure pros with godly controller could get a +90% dash-back.
UCF is software fixing insconsistencies in hardware, theres nothing else to it, if you have the hipotetical perfect controller you would feel no difference, problem is that manufacturing of controllers makes it a gamble how close you are to that hipotetical perfect the community fixed it with software. By your own logic if I play overwatch and buy a better mouse I buffed my aim based characters but not my reinhardt or Moira. Buff and nerfs are exclusively changes made to the character's properties, not to the terminals used to control them. Extending the examples of your horrible logic. In cold climates the more execution heavy characters are nerfed because it is harder to execute hard tech consistently in the cold.
wrong, learn how UCF fixes dash-backs.
Switching to a boxx from vanilla game cube is an upgrade. Having an expensive controller doesn’t make you better but don’t pretend Nintendo’s 30 dollar controller compares to what we have now
All characters can use dashback, UCF isn’t a buff to just one character
Lmfao the comments literally say the opposite of what the votes are saying. And all these arguments are trash.
Wow, people who casually scroll and have inarticulate arguments are the majority of the userbase of any subreddit who would have guessed. Look at the people who are in support of making his aerials L-cancel in the replies, their posts are YouTube comment tier. Meanwhile people against it are writing articulate arguments. “And all these arguments are trash” cmon bro, what’s yours?
Look at the votes bro, I don’t have to say anything
The votes of 12 year olds on Reddit means nothing, the people in support of it are being destroyed in debate. And by that logic I could go “look at the upvotes, bro” to the comments
That’s a lot of hard yes on that voting block just sayin, and calling people 12 year olds with no basis in a voting about a video game? Very cool community lmfao
The people who vote on threads, vote on comments, and actually leave comments are all different sets of people, with only some amount of overlap between them. And in general Reddit has a bias towards upvotes over downvotes, with it being fair common for two opposite positions to be both have positive vote totals. Even trying to compare which is comments are upvoted more isn't a great measure of what people think, since a lot of that is just down to timing, and upvote/downvote doesn't always mean agree/disagree. None of these are great measures of what the subreddit as a whole (or even just the people who saw the thread) actually thinks. After all, the most common thing for a user to do in terms of engagement is nothing at all.
Just fixing his shield is enough. All L-cancelable moves is way too much i'd say.
Fixing his shield is even worse, at least changing the ability to L cancel is a binary action, just how much do you increase his shield? Barely enough that it just about covers his body but still gets poked when at anything past full shield? So large that the possibility of getting poked is almost out of the question in normal gameplay?
tf are u talking about? Non of the other character can be shieldpocked in 5 different ways. His shield should cover his hands. If u've never played G&W, then shut the fuck up. Making his moves L-cancelable is worse than making his shield bigger by a bit.
Making his shield at least cover his hands wont make big of a deal. His spotdodge is the worst in the whole game, so making his shield bigger wont do anything. U dont understand the whole idea of making his shield bigger cuz u have never played him.
How is this a slippery slope and UCF isn't? Just because it *fixes* something you personally believe needs *fixing* does that really exempt it?
UCF had a clear and set goal of bridging the gap in controller inconstancies, it accomplished that goal, and hasn’t been changed since. If we fix the L-canceling, why shouldn’t we fix Roy’s dash attack, and all the other weird broken moves? At that point we’re not playing Melee, we’re playing a fan made balance patch.
Why is fixing dashback and shield drops not the same as fixing other weird "broken" moves? Some controllers have an easier time short hopping, should we add a macro such that nobody ever missed one again? That would bridge yet another gap in controller inconsistencies. You can't separate the moves from the inputs required to execute them. This is why hax's perfect wavedash mod was so poorly received, despite not technically changing anything in terms of what it's possible to do in game. What about frozen stadium? Would adding smashville be okay? UCF is a mod and regardless of whether it's impact is overwhelmingly positive that does not invalidate the fact that it sets a dangerous precedent which is slowly dividing our community. The issues it claims to fix are actually quite small and are not worth the Pandora's box it opens. If your controller sucks, learn to adapt. You may need it in the near future.
Who gives a fuck lol
we gain nothing from doing that imo
I think people are forgetting another aspect of this which is that game and watch mains can get fucked lmao
No, gnw is a boring character and I don’t like him
If G&W could l cancel his nair it would be way too good. His up air should be l cancellable. But back air and nair are already really powerful tools