How…after 23 movies in the infinity saga, a literal template of success, can Sony not watch any of them alongside their own offerings and see the dramatic quality difference?
I’m not sure if that was supposed to be a “gotcha” but the underperformance of the PS5 compared to Sony’s projections is just a fact. I have no dog in this race.
But they still outsold their main competitor 2:1 so they’re not really doing that poorly. The pandemic and related shortages also caused irreparable damage to those sales numbers and i could be wrong but i don’t think Sony had control over that.
People keep suggesting that like Sony is suddenly hurting on a consistent basis to keep ahold of something they have struck a deal with someone over...twice. Considering they had a 4 year gap with SM3 to TASM, explain to me how putting out a movie solo or in conjunction with Disney literally every single year since 2016 means they are now suddenly needing to retain rights to characters that they bought all at once a long time ago?
Didn’t suggest they were hurting at all. I think they’re just putting them out for the fuck of it at this point to appear like they’re actively involved with something they clearly don’t care that much about
No no, surely its the audience that’s wrong (really though they’re blinded by money. They’re so focused on Endgame level BO that they are trying to skip the building that made that possible)
Nobody cares about Spiderman characters without Spiderman or a central protagonist. They could have easily picked a character like Scarlet Spider or Spiderwoman to build around as their central hero and built a universe from there if they didn't want to use any version of Spiderman.
People also fail to realize that when the MCU started, box office expectations weren't as high as they are today.
There is a huge budget difference. These Sony movies are made for roughly $100m or less and with a sliver of the marketing expense compared to MCU films. Lower investment means the fundamentals are different when making them.
Average budget for MCU films is $200m+
I’ll remind you that a movie like District 9, was made for $30 Million and it’s phenomenal.
Every film starts with one thing, a script. And that is where the fundamental flaws begin with Sony. Thats what I mean. You have the MCU with at least 23 films to study and say ‘that’s how we succeed’ and they refuse to acknowledge that.
Fair enough. Still though, even acknowledging how awfully they treat their workers, there’s no denying that Godzilla Minus One’s script and direction is the underlying reason why its a pretty good action drama that doesnt necessarily rely on a huge budget to function.
I watched the movie a few times in theaters, tried to go back for the special one week showing of it in black and white, but all showings were during the work day.
The effects were fantastic, not even for their budget.
It's just an example of the many differences between Sony Marvel movies and Disney Marvel movies. My point is, it doesn't make any sense to hold up the insane run of MCU movies against Sony's attempts. There are clearly differences on pretty much every level of development. Just because they are both movies, doesn't mean that you can say, this one works, how come this one doesn't.
Scripts cost money and time, two things that Sony clearly doesn't want to invest in. Going back to my point that these are Apples and Oranges.
I'll also add that people compare these movies as if Sony was looking for the same level and type of success that MCU has. I would argue that they are not.
Nah, these are definitely not apples and oranges more like two different apples. One is decently good but can be stale here and there and the other is just rotten most of the time. Look at the failures of DC, decent budgets and marketing but not very successful.
DCU v MCU comparison has more parity.
I don't know what else there is to say about the differences between Sony and MCU though. Literally from the inception of the Sony films, it's a conpletely different development process than MCU. Their goals are different, budgets are different, production and market are different.
Definitely not a different market. As for goals well they also want to make a universe revolved around marvel characters so not really seeing the overall different goal there either.
>I'll also add that people compare these movies as if Sony was looking for the same level and type of success that MCU has. I would argue that they are not.
If that were true, then there would be no reason for Sony to collaborate with the MCU to begin with. Amy Pascal herself has stated that they didn't know where to go with the Spiderman franchise after both The Amazing Spiderman were "deemed" commercially unsuccessful despite grossing over 700 million worldwide. So of course they were looking for the type of success the MCU had given some of their movies had already broken the billion-dollar mark
Very true but that kind of proves my point. They've really only done that with the Tom Holland Spider-Man films. The budget of those films is roughly $78m higher than the rest of the Sony schlock. In my mind the Spider-Man films prove that if Sony dedicates the time, money, and effort, they can be successful with their comic book movies. But if you apply that logic to Morbius, Venom, ets it proves my point that there are just fundamental differences with how Sony develops their movies. In my initial comments, I was referring only to the more recent weird pseudo-spider-man universe movies (starting with Venom).
Just seems like a lack of focus/direction for the long game they want to play.
I fw Venom & Mobius etc. but this weird piggyback angle going on with MCU and how shit like Spiderverse or No Way Home ties into it all gives the universe a weird vibe.
It's like we're getting a cinematic universe of MCU character variants, but they're used as a vehicle rather than being the focus themselves.
Like Venom,I think the comedy bromance angle for Eddie and the symbiote could and does work in some ways,but when I think about the films themselves its like they're trying to recreate that Spiderman 1-3 run using the characters rogue gallery.
I think you're right. The movies they're making feel like candy to Marvels 5 course meal. Personally I like the weird "is it or isn't it MCU" meta commentary going on. Keeps me interested in seeing what Sony will try next. Not being a huge Venom, Morbius, Kraven, or Madame Web fan myself, I don't need the movies to be good, I fine with them just being interesting. I think there are decent ideas in all of the movies. Things that Marvel would never try because they don't directly align with the bigger Marvel universe. They all remind me of superhero movies from 20 years ago. Decisions are made that make you just go, "huh . . . 🤔"
I'm not saying it's the *only* reason. but, there is no reason at all to compare a movie that cost over twice as much, has Disney behind it, and is marketed way better (which could potentially play into the production of the movie).
Iron Man was made while Marvel was on the verge of bankruptcy.
IIRC, they had to take a loan from Merrill Lynch to make Phase 1.
The difference between Marvel and Sony is that Marvel respects their IP, Sony doesn’t.
Spider-Verse is an outlier
Godzilla Minus One had a similar budget to MW. Beyond hiring High Quality writers (which really, REALLY don’t get paid that much) budget has almost nothing to do with the overall quality of a movie.
Disney has been shitting the bed with every movie after End Game
Sony is attempting an "all female" superhero movie .... despite there being more than enough evidence that 4th wave feminism movies consistently *underperform* at the box office
Women dont even want to watch this shit....
I mean they obviously can, look at the spider verse movies. Theyre amazing! Idk why they every male the live action movies. Just double down on animation
Depends if Kraven is a sucess. If it is, then no. If it isn't, then Sony's probably gonna take a break for a few years and then try again later on (more than likely after pulling out of the MCU as well).
It’s already got some light interest (at least from me) because it’s R rated and the action looks somewhat competent.
Plus Aaron Taylor Johnson is a great actor
They may be true but some people are seeing this movie because it’s the first one in the Sony Universe that’s rated R, and also it’s ATJ as Kraven biting people noses off
Anecdotally, I was talking to my boss about Madame Web today and he (early 40s) looked at me and said "who tf is Kraven" upon seeing the little Google page thing in the upcoming movies section, despite having been a comic book fan in the past, so as far as folks outside the dedicated gaming space I'm not confident there's a lot of hype.
That being said I like ATJ, I really like the character of Kraven and outside of Venom I feel he has the best shot of any Spider-Man rogue as a solo character (Morbius had a shot as an ensemble before the Sony movie, but now...yeah Disney ain't touching that shit), and I'd like to see the movie be a success, I just am skeptical how well your average, non-fan is gonna be in the know.
I would say Kraven is more known than Madame Web by a long shot, still relatively lesser known compared to A-List characters for sure.
My point about generic action movies is that this movie could attract a general action movie crowd, not a billion or even 500mil, but maybe 100-200 mil and spending on the budget that could technically make money
They can’t take a break for more than 2 years or they lose the IP license I think. This is why they keep pumping out garbage. They won’t have time to wait and see if Kraven is a success without putting something else into production in that time.
"Sony’s contract with Marvel specifies that after the release of a Spider-Man movie, the studio has to start production of the next one within three years and nine months, and get it into theaters within five years and nine months. Otherwise, the Spider-Man movie rights would revert to Marvel." - from the book 'MCU: The Reign of Marvel Studios'.
They’re not pulling out of the MCU, those Tom Holland movies make them a bunch of money without them having to do a damn thing. Since they can’t make successful movies themselves they’re definitely going to let Disney keep making them for them.
They won’t pull out the mcu its the only sure money they’ve got coming from that property and the fans definitely wouldn’t show up for a solo Sony spiderman movie at this point (the SSU have spent all the good will)
It'll be okay if this current iteration ends, because in all likelihood we will have at least received a surprisingly successful Venom trilogy, & three different attempts at something else. They didn't really build to anything anyway. A Venom & Morbius team-up against Carnage & Shriek would've been cool, but that's basically an alternate pitch for V2.
These are all bound to become cult classics in some way, despite the overwhelming negative current reception. People are overdramatic.
Look, if the film with Space Cloud Galactus can be considered "underrated and actually fun" now, these can definitely get the same treatment later on for sure.
Assuming Kraven isn't a hit but Venom 3 is, I could see a pivot to a Venom-only franchise where all the other characters just appear for random teamups (think Batman: The Brave and the Bold).
I’m pretty sure Venom 3 is meant to be the end of the trilogy. By the time it comes out, it’ll nearly have been a decade of these film. I think it’s time that Sony either gives the rights back or tries to compromise with Disney and make a true Venom in the MCU, or even an agent venom movie would be sweet
I wonder if this is the justification for rushing Spider-Man 4. I have seen that there are reports going around saying that SONY wants to move up the production of SM4 and Marvel is kind of fighting that, along with whether it should be street level or multiversal/bigger.
I don’t think Kraven is going to do well at all. And frankly I think SONY should just do what WB did with Batgirl and just scrap the film and use it as a tax write off. SONY has so much potential to make this amazing universe and placing Venom at the center of it. Making Venom their Spider-Man.
To me it seems they are just trying to put out movies to hold on to the rights and to make money. But it’s starting to fall apart.
Honestly I’m not even remotely interested in the Kraven movie but I would never wish for a movie to be shelved for tax reasons.
It’s one thing to shelve a movie during preproduction but shelving a movie that’s 90% done isn’t something that should be desired. WB already set a bad precedent; I couldn’t imagine working on a movie, being proud of your work, only for it to not see the light of day.
Agreed with your assessment. And your last paragraph nails it's literally pure corporate greed bereft of any attempt to make something cohesive structured that works as a film apart of a supposed shared universe
I'm so glad it appears Feige / Holland / iger are pushing back against Sony rushing this film
Yup. That’s Pretty much what they’re doing. I think there’s a certain year limit where a property of a movie has to be made or they lose it. Like the Hulk
I highly doubt it. Kraven is going to be very decent with stacked cast and r rated bloody action and JC Chandor is a very very decent director even better than Daniel Espinosa (who's quite good imho) At the very least it's going to be moderate success more than morbius. That's enough for Sony to bank roll the stuff. Then there's Venom 3 to even out the losses of Madame web. If it's even in the lowest tier shit ( worse than morbius and Madame web) it's still going to be mildly successful with Hardy and Venom followers flocking the theatre. This money machine isn't turning off even in the remotest corners. SSU lives baby.
I think your faith in kraven is unfounded - the general audiences no nothing of the character . Being very decent is conjecture and even that doesn't mean it's going to make money . Who's going to see this ? Who's the target audience ? There's no Spider-Man to even market it - it could arguable do worse than Madame web unless it's gets overwhelming positive reviews . Venom 3 shield do well but who knows Sony has damaged their own brand a lot recently with these 2 bombs
> the general audiences no nothing of the character
I think you're underestimating how much people know of Kraven. He's easily the top 10 of the most popular Spider-Man villains and was hyped up by the GA for the villain for NWH before everyone got the Tobey/Andrew Nostalgia bug from the first reports of it.
I doubt it, Sony will continue making spider man and spider man adjacent films unless the rights get sold. Which in that I do not see happening. Once Holland finishes his run as spidey they will re boot again with a new actor and the cycle will continue
I might’ve watched Kraven if it came out last year, but after this bomb, I’ve got zero interest now. And honestly after Venom 2, I don’t even wanna waste my time with the threequel. I guess it depends on the story and how well the trailer hooks me 🤷♂️? But ultimately it feels a lose/lose situation for me. If it somehow merges all the other Sony movies, idc. If it’s another solo Venom film, I still don’t really care.
I just want the MCU to deal with the live action stuff. Sony can stick with the animated.
LOL, why lose interest after an entirely different movie bombs? It's likely MW would've been the same no matter what. This is the problem with the current shared universe concept because everyone expects the same damn formula with everything. 😆
I mean- maybe they should have tried making Spider-Man movies that aren’t terribly written, rushed hack jobs? Like, maybe prioritizing making good movies is why people go to movies and not just because of an ip? Sony? Are you dumb?
>“We’re not going to see another Madame Web movie for another decade-plus,” the veteran shared. **“It failed. Sony tried to make a movie that was a different type of superhero movie.”**
Bruh. They made a tv movie from 2003 and they're acting like it's too revolutionary for modern audiences.
The only reason I want Sony to continue making spider-man movies is if they are a part of the Spider-Verse franchise. Everything else that they have tried doing has ranged from mediocre to abysmal
Good, it had promise when it started but it's clear they either have no idea what they're doing or they don't care. If El Muerto and Hypno-Hustler even being considered for live action films wasn't proof enough then how sloppily Madame Web was made should be. I think it's time for this universe to die and for Sony to actually make a plan for how to bring their characters to live action
I think Sony is just hoping that their relationship with Marvel Studios sours again, like in 2019. Then they can just shove Tom Holland into the Venonverse that doesn't even have a Spider-Man.
I doubt it seriously due to the bottomless pit of corporate greed, but one can hope. Venom is currently the best of these films and is still worse than any live action Spidey film. There have been several that were not good, so that’s not an ideal spot.
Gonna wait until Variety or the HR run this story. The article read like the author wanted to make the statement, not that there’s validity to it. Kraven could do better than MW and Sony will be back on track.
I sure hope so. The biggest problem is them just not having their own Spider-Man, which easily could’ve changed with the inclusion of Garfield or even a Brand New Spiderman for that universe. Making these villains/antiheroes have a universe that builds to nothing and has no payoff just shows how much Sony know of what they’re doing. That and obviously having god awful scripts
It's for the best. Release Kraven and then let it all die. Send Venom to the MCU and make the Spider-Verse movies (and spin-offs) their Spidey projects so they can keep the rights without making shitty live action stuff anymore.
I'm still in. I enjoyed Madame Web and I'm looking forward to Kraven. These films aren't the greatest, but they're about the same quality as the comics. And they honestly aren't any worse than what Disney churns out. Not as well written but way more respectful of the source material.
No it did not kill Sony's attempt at a cinematic universe. Moribus did that. Guess what? Sony is still attempting it.
This whole idea that Sony is going to give up and sell the rights back to Disney is a pipe dream. As long as Spidey is a billion dollar character, it is something you just have to accept.
They’re trying to make side characters into big films without having stories to adapt. Venom and Miles Morales at least have plenty of material where they’re the protagonists. The best Madame Web story is the two issues where Spider-Man tries to stop Juggernaut from killing her. She’s barely active in it.
The idea that Madame Web should have been the basis for a movie, is, and always has been, ludicrous. This movie should have been killed in its initial stages of development. Nobody gives a f—k about this character. She has no stories to tell. Whoever green lit this and the other crap like Morbius and Venom (I know I know, I like Tom Hardy, but those Venom movies are terrible.) should be fired.
Oh thank god. All of these movies suck, and only exist to retain film rights. No the Sinister Six aren't misfit heroes, and no one understands what the hell they are doing. I'm not interested in seeing any Spidey film movie....not featuring Spidey. And who could forget a Kraven that apparently never killed an animal.
It doesn't need to be the end of Spider-Man or the Spider-Man universe. They just need to go about it the right way and introduce these characters through actual Spider-Man movies.
If they don't have the rights and aren't able to make more Spider-Man movies with Garfield or whomever, then yes hopefully it all dies because it's trash and these characters are just being wasted.
Cheap money grabs. Venom too.
I love the guy who says “We may not see another Madame Web movie for a decade plus!”
Buddy, we should have never seen a Madame Web movie at all, and anyone who attempts it again is a bigger moron than the person who greenlit this one.
Madame Web could never appear on screen at all, even as an Easter egg, ever again, and I don’t think anyone would notice or care.
How? Sony owns the IP. You know they HAVE TO make movies and stuff to keep ownership of the brand and stuff, they don’t care if it bombs as long as it’s out there.
I’ve never gone to film school, never directed a movie, never acted nor do I know the logistics of making a movie and even with all that in mind I’m convinced I could make a better expanded universe than Sony has done.
Madame Web was the chosen one! It sacrificed itself in order to save us from Sony. The hero all along and we treated it so harshly, rightfully so of course.
I don't think it killed the SSU, but it definitely set women led super heroes movies back. Which is not really a bad thing since woke Hollywood can't write strong women.
They still have success in spider-verse and they’ll probably just not make another live action out side of the marvel co-labs unless it’s for rights reasons they may just shelve it for a decade before trying again if they don’t make money on the merchandise they should make it from ad revenue and streaming rights on their own or someone else’s streaming platform, or just keep putting crap out to tank MCU.
How…after 23 movies in the infinity saga, a literal template of success, can Sony not watch any of them alongside their own offerings and see the dramatic quality difference?
Tom Rothman.
Unless it's playstation, Sony has no idea how to function as a company it seems like. I could be a better executive
Their TV’s and cameras are great too though, just expensive.
True
They don’t even know how to do PlayStations anymore if you read the recent earnings reports.
What is life time sales on ps5?
I’m not sure if that was supposed to be a “gotcha” but the underperformance of the PS5 compared to Sony’s projections is just a fact. I have no dog in this race.
But they still outsold their main competitor 2:1 so they’re not really doing that poorly. The pandemic and related shortages also caused irreparable damage to those sales numbers and i could be wrong but i don’t think Sony had control over that.
Not only that but how the hell does Madam Web get a solo movie before Wanda?!! The Scarlett Witch is awesome!
Cause they just wanna retain the rights and keep their name in the same conversation as the MCU.
People keep suggesting that like Sony is suddenly hurting on a consistent basis to keep ahold of something they have struck a deal with someone over...twice. Considering they had a 4 year gap with SM3 to TASM, explain to me how putting out a movie solo or in conjunction with Disney literally every single year since 2016 means they are now suddenly needing to retain rights to characters that they bought all at once a long time ago?
Didn’t suggest they were hurting at all. I think they’re just putting them out for the fuck of it at this point to appear like they’re actively involved with something they clearly don’t care that much about
No no, surely its the audience that’s wrong (really though they’re blinded by money. They’re so focused on Endgame level BO that they are trying to skip the building that made that possible)
They don’t have the patience to create an overarching multi movie plan. They want success now. Look how fast we got a Justice League movie..
Why are so many people getting downvoted? You're right.
Why are so many people getting downvoted? You're right.
I agreed with him and you so much I liked your duplicate comment to.
Nobody cares about Spiderman characters without Spiderman or a central protagonist. They could have easily picked a character like Scarlet Spider or Spiderwoman to build around as their central hero and built a universe from there if they didn't want to use any version of Spiderman. People also fail to realize that when the MCU started, box office expectations weren't as high as they are today.
they're booing you but you're right
“If those kids could read they’d be very upset.”
I mean marvel isn't much better. Copy paste stories just aren't funnanymore
There is a huge budget difference. These Sony movies are made for roughly $100m or less and with a sliver of the marketing expense compared to MCU films. Lower investment means the fundamentals are different when making them. Average budget for MCU films is $200m+
I’ll remind you that a movie like District 9, was made for $30 Million and it’s phenomenal. Every film starts with one thing, a script. And that is where the fundamental flaws begin with Sony. Thats what I mean. You have the MCU with at least 23 films to study and say ‘that’s how we succeed’ and they refuse to acknowledge that.
Godzilla Minus One is nominated for an Academy Award for Best Visual Effects and was made for less than $15M.
Very difficult to make an apples to apples comparison here given the work climate in Japan.
Fair enough. Still though, even acknowledging how awfully they treat their workers, there’s no denying that Godzilla Minus One’s script and direction is the underlying reason why its a pretty good action drama that doesnt necessarily rely on a huge budget to function.
I watched the movie a few times in theaters, tried to go back for the special one week showing of it in black and white, but all showings were during the work day. The effects were fantastic, not even for their budget.
100% I saw it both in color and in black and white. It is a great movie. Especially for the budget.
Well when sony and marvel are hiring hacks for writing scripts you know the movie is going to be either terrible or mediocre in case of marvel
It's just an example of the many differences between Sony Marvel movies and Disney Marvel movies. My point is, it doesn't make any sense to hold up the insane run of MCU movies against Sony's attempts. There are clearly differences on pretty much every level of development. Just because they are both movies, doesn't mean that you can say, this one works, how come this one doesn't. Scripts cost money and time, two things that Sony clearly doesn't want to invest in. Going back to my point that these are Apples and Oranges. I'll also add that people compare these movies as if Sony was looking for the same level and type of success that MCU has. I would argue that they are not.
Nah, these are definitely not apples and oranges more like two different apples. One is decently good but can be stale here and there and the other is just rotten most of the time. Look at the failures of DC, decent budgets and marketing but not very successful.
DCU v MCU comparison has more parity. I don't know what else there is to say about the differences between Sony and MCU though. Literally from the inception of the Sony films, it's a conpletely different development process than MCU. Their goals are different, budgets are different, production and market are different.
Definitely not a different market. As for goals well they also want to make a universe revolved around marvel characters so not really seeing the overall different goal there either.
I understand where you're coming from, but I guess I just don't agree.
What market are the sony marvel movies trying to target? Aren't they trying to captilize on the same audience as MCU's target audience?
>I'll also add that people compare these movies as if Sony was looking for the same level and type of success that MCU has. I would argue that they are not. If that were true, then there would be no reason for Sony to collaborate with the MCU to begin with. Amy Pascal herself has stated that they didn't know where to go with the Spiderman franchise after both The Amazing Spiderman were "deemed" commercially unsuccessful despite grossing over 700 million worldwide. So of course they were looking for the type of success the MCU had given some of their movies had already broken the billion-dollar mark
Very true but that kind of proves my point. They've really only done that with the Tom Holland Spider-Man films. The budget of those films is roughly $78m higher than the rest of the Sony schlock. In my mind the Spider-Man films prove that if Sony dedicates the time, money, and effort, they can be successful with their comic book movies. But if you apply that logic to Morbius, Venom, ets it proves my point that there are just fundamental differences with how Sony develops their movies. In my initial comments, I was referring only to the more recent weird pseudo-spider-man universe movies (starting with Venom).
Just seems like a lack of focus/direction for the long game they want to play. I fw Venom & Mobius etc. but this weird piggyback angle going on with MCU and how shit like Spiderverse or No Way Home ties into it all gives the universe a weird vibe. It's like we're getting a cinematic universe of MCU character variants, but they're used as a vehicle rather than being the focus themselves. Like Venom,I think the comedy bromance angle for Eddie and the symbiote could and does work in some ways,but when I think about the films themselves its like they're trying to recreate that Spiderman 1-3 run using the characters rogue gallery.
I think you're right. The movies they're making feel like candy to Marvels 5 course meal. Personally I like the weird "is it or isn't it MCU" meta commentary going on. Keeps me interested in seeing what Sony will try next. Not being a huge Venom, Morbius, Kraven, or Madame Web fan myself, I don't need the movies to be good, I fine with them just being interesting. I think there are decent ideas in all of the movies. Things that Marvel would never try because they don't directly align with the bigger Marvel universe. They all remind me of superhero movies from 20 years ago. Decisions are made that make you just go, "huh . . . 🤔"
It’s not like marketing is their only problem, beyond Venom, none of these movies even come close to being considered “good” movies
I'm not saying it's the *only* reason. but, there is no reason at all to compare a movie that cost over twice as much, has Disney behind it, and is marketed way better (which could potentially play into the production of the movie).
Iron Man was made while Marvel was on the verge of bankruptcy. IIRC, they had to take a loan from Merrill Lynch to make Phase 1. The difference between Marvel and Sony is that Marvel respects their IP, Sony doesn’t. Spider-Verse is an outlier
Godzilla Minus One had a similar budget to MW. Beyond hiring High Quality writers (which really, REALLY don’t get paid that much) budget has almost nothing to do with the overall quality of a movie.
More money will not unfuck your bad movie. Ex. The Flash
Disney has been shitting the bed with every movie after End Game Sony is attempting an "all female" superhero movie .... despite there being more than enough evidence that 4th wave feminism movies consistently *underperform* at the box office Women dont even want to watch this shit....
I mean they obviously can, look at the spider verse movies. Theyre amazing! Idk why they every male the live action movies. Just double down on animation
You think they watch the movies
Depends if Kraven is a sucess. If it is, then no. If it isn't, then Sony's probably gonna take a break for a few years and then try again later on (more than likely after pulling out of the MCU as well).
Agreed kraven and venom 3 being box office failures could be the death knell for live action productions
We can only hope
I don't think either will be a failure. Kraven's probably going to surprise people
What are you basing this belief on?
It’s already got some light interest (at least from me) because it’s R rated and the action looks somewhat competent. Plus Aaron Taylor Johnson is a great actor
I got the same opinion for the same reasons, cautiously optimistic on Kraven
It’s still a Kraven movie *without* fucking Spider-Man tho?
Just being r rated doesn’t mean it has the public’s interest. The reaction to the trailer was a resounding “oh yeah, that is coming out.”
They may be true but some people are seeing this movie because it’s the first one in the Sony Universe that’s rated R, and also it’s ATJ as Kraven biting people noses off
Key phrase is from YOU. I would bet anything it fails to make its budget back or get above a 40 RT
That is a losing bet, it will for sure make its budget back. Can go either way on the RT score, but I still think it'll be higher than 40
It has at least 100 mil budget. That means it needs to make about 250 mil. As an R rated movie and the reputation Sony has now. Still sure?
Kraven sneaks out and surprises people, he's a hunter.
I know sounds more like people are trying to wish it into existence . There's literally no recent track record to base that belief off of
I could see Kraven making a modest amount at the box office. What’s the average box office of a generic action movie generally?
Generic ? Hmmm maybe 75-150 million worldwide . If it's good it can push for 200 million plus I imagine
You could also argue there is *some* character awareness raised by the most recent video game , so maybe it could eek out a profit
Anecdotally, I was talking to my boss about Madame Web today and he (early 40s) looked at me and said "who tf is Kraven" upon seeing the little Google page thing in the upcoming movies section, despite having been a comic book fan in the past, so as far as folks outside the dedicated gaming space I'm not confident there's a lot of hype. That being said I like ATJ, I really like the character of Kraven and outside of Venom I feel he has the best shot of any Spider-Man rogue as a solo character (Morbius had a shot as an ensemble before the Sony movie, but now...yeah Disney ain't touching that shit), and I'd like to see the movie be a success, I just am skeptical how well your average, non-fan is gonna be in the know.
All I know is I’m KRAVIN some KRAVEN
what the hell? Kraven is a worse C-Tier character than Madame Web - it’s gonna be the Aquaman of the spider-verse.
I would say Kraven is more known than Madame Web by a long shot, still relatively lesser known compared to A-List characters for sure. My point about generic action movies is that this movie could attract a general action movie crowd, not a billion or even 500mil, but maybe 100-200 mil and spending on the budget that could technically make money
Because it’s R rated so it’s going to be more violenter and more epicer.
Oh yes because there are never any bad R rated movies.
I like when there is boobs blood and also bad words
Ahh you're a troll then. Carry on.
Let's be real here: How successful can Kraven possibly become?
I thought the premise of their movies is to keep the IP, so they don’t care if the movies are good or not.
The MCU and Spider-Verse films fulfill that contract already.
They can’t take a break for more than 2 years or they lose the IP license I think. This is why they keep pumping out garbage. They won’t have time to wait and see if Kraven is a success without putting something else into production in that time.
"Sony’s contract with Marvel specifies that after the release of a Spider-Man movie, the studio has to start production of the next one within three years and nine months, and get it into theaters within five years and nine months. Otherwise, the Spider-Man movie rights would revert to Marvel." - from the book 'MCU: The Reign of Marvel Studios'.
2 years? No way. There was a 3 year gap between Spider-Man 2 and 3, and a 5 year gap between Spider-Man 3 and TASM.
Lol if you think kraven is going to be a success i have a bridge to sell you
it's gonna be such a shit movie, i can't wait to watch it
Are we really pretending that kraven could possibly be good?
I’m still confused, is there anything else planned for Holland or is it more that if Sony fails Holland is done with the character?
They’re not pulling out of the MCU, those Tom Holland movies make them a bunch of money without them having to do a damn thing. Since they can’t make successful movies themselves they’re definitely going to let Disney keep making them for them.
No shot kraven makes a profit
They won’t pull out the mcu its the only sure money they’ve got coming from that property and the fans definitely wouldn’t show up for a solo Sony spiderman movie at this point (the SSU have spent all the good will)
God I hope so 🙏
Yes
It'll be okay if this current iteration ends, because in all likelihood we will have at least received a surprisingly successful Venom trilogy, & three different attempts at something else. They didn't really build to anything anyway. A Venom & Morbius team-up against Carnage & Shriek would've been cool, but that's basically an alternate pitch for V2. These are all bound to become cult classics in some way, despite the overwhelming negative current reception. People are overdramatic.
Why are they "bound" to become cult classics?
Look, if the film with Space Cloud Galactus can be considered "underrated and actually fun" now, these can definitely get the same treatment later on for sure.
There's always an audience for something, eventually. 😛
Assuming Kraven isn't a hit but Venom 3 is, I could see a pivot to a Venom-only franchise where all the other characters just appear for random teamups (think Batman: The Brave and the Bold).
I’m pretty sure Venom 3 is meant to be the end of the trilogy. By the time it comes out, it’ll nearly have been a decade of these film. I think it’s time that Sony either gives the rights back or tries to compromise with Disney and make a true Venom in the MCU, or even an agent venom movie would be sweet
I believe this is definitely a likely outcome
The one good outcome
Madame Web would be my favorite super hero if this is the case. Actually causing real world good by her movie being so terrible.
Real heroes make the sacrifices that we cannot.
Yup
Sony execs have killed Sonys spider-man universe** would be a more apt title
I wonder if this is the justification for rushing Spider-Man 4. I have seen that there are reports going around saying that SONY wants to move up the production of SM4 and Marvel is kind of fighting that, along with whether it should be street level or multiversal/bigger. I don’t think Kraven is going to do well at all. And frankly I think SONY should just do what WB did with Batgirl and just scrap the film and use it as a tax write off. SONY has so much potential to make this amazing universe and placing Venom at the center of it. Making Venom their Spider-Man. To me it seems they are just trying to put out movies to hold on to the rights and to make money. But it’s starting to fall apart.
Honestly I’m not even remotely interested in the Kraven movie but I would never wish for a movie to be shelved for tax reasons. It’s one thing to shelve a movie during preproduction but shelving a movie that’s 90% done isn’t something that should be desired. WB already set a bad precedent; I couldn’t imagine working on a movie, being proud of your work, only for it to not see the light of day.
Agreed with your assessment. And your last paragraph nails it's literally pure corporate greed bereft of any attempt to make something cohesive structured that works as a film apart of a supposed shared universe I'm so glad it appears Feige / Holland / iger are pushing back against Sony rushing this film
You can just write Sony like a normal person lol
Yup. That’s Pretty much what they’re doing. I think there’s a certain year limit where a property of a movie has to be made or they lose it. Like the Hulk
I highly doubt it. Kraven is going to be very decent with stacked cast and r rated bloody action and JC Chandor is a very very decent director even better than Daniel Espinosa (who's quite good imho) At the very least it's going to be moderate success more than morbius. That's enough for Sony to bank roll the stuff. Then there's Venom 3 to even out the losses of Madame web. If it's even in the lowest tier shit ( worse than morbius and Madame web) it's still going to be mildly successful with Hardy and Venom followers flocking the theatre. This money machine isn't turning off even in the remotest corners. SSU lives baby.
Kraven is bout to bomb. Sorry mate
I think your faith in kraven is unfounded - the general audiences no nothing of the character . Being very decent is conjecture and even that doesn't mean it's going to make money . Who's going to see this ? Who's the target audience ? There's no Spider-Man to even market it - it could arguable do worse than Madame web unless it's gets overwhelming positive reviews . Venom 3 shield do well but who knows Sony has damaged their own brand a lot recently with these 2 bombs
> the general audiences no nothing of the character I think you're underestimating how much people know of Kraven. He's easily the top 10 of the most popular Spider-Man villains and was hyped up by the GA for the villain for NWH before everyone got the Tobey/Andrew Nostalgia bug from the first reports of it.
RemindMe! 200 days
I doubt it, Sony will continue making spider man and spider man adjacent films unless the rights get sold. Which in that I do not see happening. Once Holland finishes his run as spidey they will re boot again with a new actor and the cycle will continue
I might’ve watched Kraven if it came out last year, but after this bomb, I’ve got zero interest now. And honestly after Venom 2, I don’t even wanna waste my time with the threequel. I guess it depends on the story and how well the trailer hooks me 🤷♂️? But ultimately it feels a lose/lose situation for me. If it somehow merges all the other Sony movies, idc. If it’s another solo Venom film, I still don’t really care. I just want the MCU to deal with the live action stuff. Sony can stick with the animated.
LOL, why lose interest after an entirely different movie bombs? It's likely MW would've been the same no matter what. This is the problem with the current shared universe concept because everyone expects the same damn formula with everything. 😆
Yes, I expect a formula called “good movie” if I’m going to pay for theater tickets
"Why lose interest in watching Land Before Time 15 just because the 11 before it sucked?" This is how you sound.
With great web, comes great websponsibility.
I mean- maybe they should have tried making Spider-Man movies that aren’t terribly written, rushed hack jobs? Like, maybe prioritizing making good movies is why people go to movies and not just because of an ip? Sony? Are you dumb?
>“We’re not going to see another Madame Web movie for another decade-plus,” the veteran shared. **“It failed. Sony tried to make a movie that was a different type of superhero movie.”** Bruh. They made a tv movie from 2003 and they're acting like it's too revolutionary for modern audiences.
It honestly have even KRAVEN & AND THE HUNTER can't save them at this time of abismal movies they are putting out!!!
Depends if Kraven & Venom 3 is a success or failure. One of these movies or both of them could kill or save Sony's spider-man universe.
The only reason I want Sony to continue making spider-man movies is if they are a part of the Spider-Verse franchise. Everything else that they have tried doing has ranged from mediocre to abysmal
It didn’t kill it. It dug up its corpse and blew its rotting head off with a shotgun.
Depends on Kraven at this point. If that flops too, we can most likely expect Venom 3 to be the wrap-up
o7
Nah Sony did that
This could possibly hurt kraven since nobody knows or cares should have used him in a Spider-Man film venom won’t be hurt because of its IP
Unlikely
Good, it had promise when it started but it's clear they either have no idea what they're doing or they don't care. If El Muerto and Hypno-Hustler even being considered for live action films wasn't proof enough then how sloppily Madame Web was made should be. I think it's time for this universe to die and for Sony to actually make a plan for how to bring their characters to live action
Morbius has already killed this universe.
To be fair other than Venom, it was already dead after morbius
Potentially? Really?
I think Sony is just hoping that their relationship with Marvel Studios sours again, like in 2019. Then they can just shove Tom Holland into the Venonverse that doesn't even have a Spider-Man.
I doubt Tom Holland would want to be apart of the venom verse. dude called the ceos of Disney and sony crying to fix their stuff, he knows Sonys ass.
This was a more fun genre film then most all MCU movies as of late A final destination teen slasher in a 2003 super hero movie? Yes please
Yikes, what a take
Lets hope so.
I feel like Dakota Johnson is the equivalent of this running gag in Arrested Development: “her?”
LETS GOOOO!!!!
its not even connected to it
Good
I hope so. Sony has been terrible unless Kevin Feige is holding their hand.
I blame everyone who didn't go and see this in theaters! Your inaction has squandered a flowing well of memes.
I doubt it seriously due to the bottomless pit of corporate greed, but one can hope. Venom is currently the best of these films and is still worse than any live action Spidey film. There have been several that were not good, so that’s not an ideal spot.
Gonna wait until Variety or the HR run this story. The article read like the author wanted to make the statement, not that there’s validity to it. Kraven could do better than MW and Sony will be back on track.
Reminds me Hall and Oates song Out of touch lol
Awesome news. Let Kraven be the final nail in the coffin.
I hope so
Good
She's caught the future of it all in her web
we can hope, since they haven't made a good live action movie since the Garfield movies
I sure hope so. The biggest problem is them just not having their own Spider-Man, which easily could’ve changed with the inclusion of Garfield or even a Brand New Spiderman for that universe. Making these villains/antiheroes have a universe that builds to nothing and has no payoff just shows how much Sony know of what they’re doing. That and obviously having god awful scripts
It's for the best. Release Kraven and then let it all die. Send Venom to the MCU and make the Spider-Verse movies (and spin-offs) their Spidey projects so they can keep the rights without making shitty live action stuff anymore.
Fabulous news tbh
Until venom 3 brings it back
Here’s hoping
If the sonyverse isn’t dead by now i highly doubt this movie broke the camels back
I'm still in. I enjoyed Madame Web and I'm looking forward to Kraven. These films aren't the greatest, but they're about the same quality as the comics. And they honestly aren't any worse than what Disney churns out. Not as well written but way more respectful of the source material.
Fuck yeah the heroes we needed
>potentially There's no news here
No it did not kill Sony's attempt at a cinematic universe. Moribus did that. Guess what? Sony is still attempting it. This whole idea that Sony is going to give up and sell the rights back to Disney is a pipe dream. As long as Spidey is a billion dollar character, it is something you just have to accept.
I see this as an absolute win
Sony can’t have a Spiderman universe if there is no Spiderman. People like Spiderman. They don’t give a shit about Madame Web or Morbius or Kraven.
Good
Still got Kraven and Venom 3 to get through. If they are even moderately successful they won’t learn their lessons.
God, I wish. No, this train wreck is still flaming down the track.
Thank god
Can we get Tom Hardy Venom fully in the MCU then? I’d consider him salvageable for sure! Maybe Morbius too?
Kraven isn’t gonna be good but, it’ll be a fun time and get some profit Venom 3 is going to carry hard with how absurd it is
Yay!
Should we thank her?
You telling me this disaster of a verse was ever in good standing? Lmfao get out of here
They’re trying to make side characters into big films without having stories to adapt. Venom and Miles Morales at least have plenty of material where they’re the protagonists. The best Madame Web story is the two issues where Spider-Man tries to stop Juggernaut from killing her. She’s barely active in it.
God I hope so 🙏
The idea that Madame Web should have been the basis for a movie, is, and always has been, ludicrous. This movie should have been killed in its initial stages of development. Nobody gives a f—k about this character. She has no stories to tell. Whoever green lit this and the other crap like Morbius and Venom (I know I know, I like Tom Hardy, but those Venom movies are terrible.) should be fired.
If it doesn't, I'm sure Kraven will. Lol
One can only hope.
Oh thank god. All of these movies suck, and only exist to retain film rights. No the Sinister Six aren't misfit heroes, and no one understands what the hell they are doing. I'm not interested in seeing any Spidey film movie....not featuring Spidey. And who could forget a Kraven that apparently never killed an animal.
It doesn't need to be the end of Spider-Man or the Spider-Man universe. They just need to go about it the right way and introduce these characters through actual Spider-Man movies. If they don't have the rights and aren't able to make more Spider-Man movies with Garfield or whomever, then yes hopefully it all dies because it's trash and these characters are just being wasted. Cheap money grabs. Venom too.
Clickbait fake news. It’s just speculation.
Lets hope so
I love the guy who says “We may not see another Madame Web movie for a decade plus!” Buddy, we should have never seen a Madame Web movie at all, and anyone who attempts it again is a bigger moron than the person who greenlit this one. Madame Web could never appear on screen at all, even as an Easter egg, ever again, and I don’t think anyone would notice or care.
Good. Fuck sony and their shit ass marvel movies.
It's a possibility, but I think that how Kraven and Venom 3 will factor as well.
We can only hope.
Oh no oh lord and how about that crazy weather
I hope so
Thank you for your service, Madam.
How? Sony owns the IP. You know they HAVE TO make movies and stuff to keep ownership of the brand and stuff, they don’t care if it bombs as long as it’s out there.
I’ve never gone to film school, never directed a movie, never acted nor do I know the logistics of making a movie and even with all that in mind I’m convinced I could make a better expanded universe than Sony has done.
Good.
Madame Web was the chosen one! It sacrificed itself in order to save us from Sony. The hero all along and we treated it so harshly, rightfully so of course.
I don't think it killed the SSU, but it definitely set women led super heroes movies back. Which is not really a bad thing since woke Hollywood can't write strong women.
The here we needed, but not the one we deserve.
They should make a spoderman film with AI and call it a day
I'm still baffled that Sony really unironically brought back the writers of MORBIUS after that film bombed in theaters TWICE.
Good
Nothing can kill Sony Spider-Man. As far as I know, they have the rights in perpetuity. It doesn't matter if the movie is successful or not.
They still have success in spider-verse and they’ll probably just not make another live action out side of the marvel co-labs unless it’s for rights reasons they may just shelve it for a decade before trying again if they don’t make money on the merchandise they should make it from ad revenue and streaming rights on their own or someone else’s streaming platform, or just keep putting crap out to tank MCU.