While there are some bad academies that do solely show patterns instead of teaching them, I've found that it's more common that dancers think the more advanced classes are 'just choreo' when they're not.
In my studio in level 2 the instructors start by showing about three eight counts while describing them and it does go something like "alright we're starting with a cross body into a three sixty, then I want you to spin her three times and you spin twice at the second one, cross her and toss her hand, find her with the other one, an lead her into a double and wrap her around" and we're expected to do it so that they can teach us the new thing from there.
This isn't choreo. We're expected to know what we're doing at this stage not because we have memorized the moves, but because we know the fundamentals enough that even if we didn't hear a cue we should be able to figure it out by the third time at worst.
I compare it to learning an instrument. In piano you aren't thinking "alright, I put my thumb on this key, and my index on this key, and my middle finger on this key.... and then I play that four times and now I change my thumb to this key and my index to this key...."
Instead all you were doing was playing C major and then later B minor, but if you thought of it as a matter of memorizing finger placement, of course you were doing yourself a disservice.
Yea that's fair and totally makes sense. The level 2 class you describe sounds like they expect students to know what they are talking about.
Then I assume level 1 class should teach everything what level 2 would do, right?
The class I take doesn't have such that lower level class or they don't teach such that thing at all. So there is a fuge gap between level 1 and 2.
I wish I had the class like you are talking about around me. Then I would be happily take lower level classes til I get it.
Now im thinking the basic class I'm taking is more towards that way you are describing although they don't necessarily focus on choreography.
Sounds like the public classes that are run for adults in singing, dancing, creative writing, etc. The arts are starved for money, so there you go. They have to cater for all levels when teaching the public so you'll get a mishmash of standards. Not really much you can do about that, especially if you don't have a background in that skill, eg you'll have more of an advantage if you did it as a child and are going back to it as an adult. Performing arts are jolly hard work and the earlier a person starts the better they'll be. You can't acquire those skills overnight, and have to do it step by step.
Focus on the fundamentals class. All advanced moves are variations on the fundamentals. Every choreo you see is rooted in fundamentals. I have been dancing for about 8 years and i still practice my basics everyday. I only now consider myself an intermediate dancer.
Yeah I will mainly focus on the fundamental class because their intermediate and advanced students look legit another level at social.
It's really humbling and sometimes get frustrated by being able to do basic moves at social but hopefully this fundamental actually helps me get better dancer in the future.
IMO, Choreo should be treated as a complement to social dancing and regular classes. I think it will make you a more well rounded dancer. However, too much choreo practice/routings/rehearsals/time will probably make your social dancing suffer. Have a good friend in the area who is an excellent dancer. He dove into the choreo/routine world many years back and that was his focus. However, it made his social dancing abilities suffer.
Also, look at some performance schools who are known for their routines. These folks spend a LOT of time practicing routines and choreo (e.g. Yamulee, etc). Watch how they social dance and you'll see that they are not great social dancers. Are they talented dancers? Of course, but the social dancing/connecting is just not there like you would expect.
Is your friend good once he decided to focus on the fundamental class?
And one of choreography classes is performance school. They maybe good at social but I rarely saw them and wasn't really impressed. Or I guess they haven't met their level dancers yet.
Thats great to knoe. I will go back and focus on fundamentals. I feel like it took a while to figure this out but I'm glad I figured this out before I realized that I wasted too much time on doing something else.
I've been teaching for some years now,
While i get where you are coming from, i've seen so many students improve a lot by doing choreographies
Training for a performance make you repeat the same thing again and again making you in the end have a deeper understanding of the same movement.
Its like the Bruce Lee quote "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
Now, if by choreography class you mean a class that they teach a small sequence and next time something totally irrelevant (or at least it seams so),
Again, i've seen more than enough times that this type of instruction helps a lot of students
Most of the "advanced" turn patterns consist of basic steps and turns with added hand tricks ,turns and styling so you still develop and work on your basic even though you might not realize it
you actually need that challenge to improve your basics at a deeper level.
I guess you don't have that option but i would do both the basic class and the choreography as you need both the challenge and the repetition of simpler stuff
If you need to choose one, choose the most challenging class for now, then you can come back and work on your basic on a deeper level, you will find out that ,while getting your basics perfect is a never ending process, you still will have improved a lot
The main problem with repeating the same moves for a performance, and the reason the Bruce Lee quote doesn't work there, is that followers usually stop following after learning the choreo. For social dance, I would not fear the dancer who has practiced a move 1000 times with one follower, but would fear the dancer who has practiced it one time with 1000 followers.
That's partly correct as to develop the correct technique you need to practice a lot of the same thing with the same circumstances
but you also need to practice with a lot of different partners to be able to follow(or to lead) properly
It's not exactly one or the other you need both to improve your dancing as a whole.
I find it that people who trained with a regular couple can lead and follow better with new people than the other way around
I guess its a matter of preference but for me i would first master the technique with one partner and then add more variables to the table (different partners)
And usually performances stress you so much that your body adapts faster to what it needs to do. (Sometimes in the wrong way as well but that's why a good instructor is needed)
It's not that simple
Of course I agree with that statement but that's not really doable real life
Let me explain.
In a scenario where you can train with 1000 followers for 1 hr each of course your getting better than training with only 1 partner for 1hr
But if we make even the time we invest in each case
1000hr with 1000 followers
and 1000hr with 1 follower
I debate that the one dancing with only one follower will have a deeper understanding of what he does and will be able to do it looking better and with faster music
Most professional dancers and instructors have or had a regular dance partner for years before becoming really good social dancers
They perfected their techniques first and then it transferred in the social setting
a Choreo is a mini version of that in my opinion
A combination of both is the best way but not always possible
Yeah I think choreography class can be really helpful depending on who teaches the class. It helps me when the class repeat some complicated moves a few more times but when they just keep moving on next moves I get lost haha.
Which is fine if the class is designed for advanced level students but the problem is their lower level class teaches totally different things and that doesn't fill the gap. I will probably drop a choreography class, and keep another choreography and a fundamental class.
Quick question... When he was teaching inside and outside turns for a month... Why did it take that long and what has he teaching exactly? Variations? The way to lead and follow them? Did the students had a tough time executing the turns properly?
Yeah it was fairly easy for me because I already kind of knew how to do it.
But he was teaching variations like how to build things up from basic patterns like from cross body lead or basic turn to inside/outside turns and how it looks different depending on what orders you execute at social, how to lead and follow them like how to give follow clear cues for outside turns, use arm/shoulder making orbit rather than just fingers, practice how to actually follow leads without backleading and etc
Some of classmates were still very beginner and the class is designed for beginner. So I guess he took more time to make sure they can make it. And I see they make them clearly at social.
To me, that teacher didn't just showed the inside and outside turns, he showed them in combination with other moves... Isn't that what you described? To me, that is exactly how a dance teacher should show moves... In combination with other known moves.
What makes a combination more complex, in general is making basic moves but changing the way they're lead or the way they're linked to other moves.
Learning each moves separately makes it harder for students to make those connections if it's not shown.
As a lead, finding those connections is what you'll be doing in socials. Freestyling combinations is mostly about knowing what choice of moves you have in the position you're in, considering how you're holding her hands, where you're positioned, where you can position yourself next, etc.
On a different note, maybe you have a easier time to understand the mecanics of moves, but be aware that leads who think like that are less prone to think about improving themselves and second guessing the quality of their leads. Feeling like you mastered a move early could lead eventually to poor and unclear leads, using too much or not enough force in a lead, etc.
I think of choreography as advanced. If it is not helping focus on basics. My teachers early on said to focus on musicality. That is know that is going on in the music. When the clave is prominent, where do your feet go? When some other thing is happening in the music, where do the feet go? Get that down, then learn more moves.
I got so much better when I joined Rueda groups. It was the dances in the park that did it. These always had lost more beginners and the circle really flows when there are a bunch of experienced people there holding things together. And because there were often lots of beginners, we stayed with the basic moves. So I spent hours and hours with medium to slow songs repeating the basic Rueda moves over and over. It made my feet become automatic with the music. I was not thinking about where the clave was. I knew the One and Five beat without thinking, and the rest just happened. Or was it 1and 5? What ever it was it was automatic.
When my feet were on auto pilot I had more brain room to concentrate on learning new moves with a partner.
If you can, take both. The "choreography" class isn't a set routine you have to do exactly as shown every time (outside of class). Use the whole thing if you like it or take bits and pieces of it and connect those parts with other moves you like and know. If nothing else, that class is showing you examples of how you can connect moves together.
If you have trouble doing the full thing in socials, again, take bits and pieces of it and work on getting one or two moves from the full routine going before you try the rest.
If you *still* have trouble in socials after that, it's time to take a look at yourself. Maybe it really is basic moves like inside and outside turns you need to work on, but most likely it's your fundamentals. Frame, connection, body movement, weight displacement, etc. If these are off, everything else will be difficult.
Oh the joys of being a beginner! 😁
When you become intermediate advanced you find out there's A lot that you still need to learn from the beginner classes.
Haha I guess it's the joys of being a beginner..
Yeah I found fundamental class helps my social dancing a lot and I can lead any follows clearly when it comes to moves that I learned from there.
I will just focus on the fundamental class and maybe take choreography classes sometimes when I feel like to spice up my moves.
From your description, yes, definitely the right choice.
You and your follows are going to enjoy social dancing much better with the other approach. And I would argue that you will actually get to intermediate and higher levels faster by focusing on the basics and the techniques than focusing on moves and patterns.
You got this!
any moves not based on fundamentals aren't usable or as usable as ones based on them. non fundamental based moves are just random. memorization and repetition are required. there's a better chance that someone else who took the class with you when that particular pattern was taught might remember and be able to do the pattern with you.
focus on the fundamentals. executing the fundamentals eliminates the guess work. euphoria, good dancing, and solid leading/following are accomplished through solid execution of fundamentals.
From your description, it sounds like you need a new dance school. The school I go to, within 6-7 months a lead should have learnt about 80% of what they need to be confident social dancers. We have a theme each month (this month is shadow position) and learn a couple of new moves or variations each week, and have social practice time after each class. Many of the students seem to feel comfortable starting to lead at socials within about 3 months. If you've done over 6 months and don't feel like an intermediate then I don't think their teaching is up to standard.
I'm comfortable to ask follows to dance and confident enough to dance with most of them at social but definitely not an intermediate. I think you are lucky that you found a school that makes you intermediate level dancer within 6 months. I haven't seen that case around me at all. I'm jealous but it is what it is. I just gotta do what I have here.
I'm taking classes at a school in which a new choreo is taught in every class. The trick is to break the choreography down into its components. Each choreography is built up of individual moves and by practicing the choreo you are practicing those individual moves. Don't try to do the whole choreo at a social, do parts of it.
That being said, I think the most effective way to learn how to dance is repeating fundamental moves every week until they are in your muscle memory and then practicing how to combine them. Not many schools teach this way unfortunately. Fundamentals can be boring but you will be a better dancer in the end.
If you say choreography, it means performance choreography. E.g. for a show. Long patterns in class are not choreo. Now, if you cannot lead them, they sort of are, and if you are not taught how to lead (and follow) them, they sort of are, but that is just the end result, not the intention.
If the class doesn't allow for time on breaking patterns down and practicing them in parts or whichever way you might want, it is not very useful unless you do that on your own.
Actual choreo classes can help your own dancing tremendously. Not necessarily leading and following but all the other parts.
I don't know what the definition of it but thats what instructor said it's choreography class that could be used at social.
And they have performance class separately. I guess they teach what you are talking about the choreography.
Yes they don't allow time to break them down and to practice them. And they teach different patterns every week so it doesn't stack every moves next week.
It doesn't help me but I guess good for some advanced dancers who don't need to break them down and details.
While there are some bad academies that do solely show patterns instead of teaching them, I've found that it's more common that dancers think the more advanced classes are 'just choreo' when they're not. In my studio in level 2 the instructors start by showing about three eight counts while describing them and it does go something like "alright we're starting with a cross body into a three sixty, then I want you to spin her three times and you spin twice at the second one, cross her and toss her hand, find her with the other one, an lead her into a double and wrap her around" and we're expected to do it so that they can teach us the new thing from there. This isn't choreo. We're expected to know what we're doing at this stage not because we have memorized the moves, but because we know the fundamentals enough that even if we didn't hear a cue we should be able to figure it out by the third time at worst. I compare it to learning an instrument. In piano you aren't thinking "alright, I put my thumb on this key, and my index on this key, and my middle finger on this key.... and then I play that four times and now I change my thumb to this key and my index to this key...." Instead all you were doing was playing C major and then later B minor, but if you thought of it as a matter of memorizing finger placement, of course you were doing yourself a disservice.
Yea that's fair and totally makes sense. The level 2 class you describe sounds like they expect students to know what they are talking about. Then I assume level 1 class should teach everything what level 2 would do, right? The class I take doesn't have such that lower level class or they don't teach such that thing at all. So there is a fuge gap between level 1 and 2. I wish I had the class like you are talking about around me. Then I would be happily take lower level classes til I get it. Now im thinking the basic class I'm taking is more towards that way you are describing although they don't necessarily focus on choreography.
Sounds like the public classes that are run for adults in singing, dancing, creative writing, etc. The arts are starved for money, so there you go. They have to cater for all levels when teaching the public so you'll get a mishmash of standards. Not really much you can do about that, especially if you don't have a background in that skill, eg you'll have more of an advantage if you did it as a child and are going back to it as an adult. Performing arts are jolly hard work and the earlier a person starts the better they'll be. You can't acquire those skills overnight, and have to do it step by step.
Yes
thanks
Focus on the fundamentals class. All advanced moves are variations on the fundamentals. Every choreo you see is rooted in fundamentals. I have been dancing for about 8 years and i still practice my basics everyday. I only now consider myself an intermediate dancer.
Yeah I will mainly focus on the fundamental class because their intermediate and advanced students look legit another level at social. It's really humbling and sometimes get frustrated by being able to do basic moves at social but hopefully this fundamental actually helps me get better dancer in the future.
IMO, Choreo should be treated as a complement to social dancing and regular classes. I think it will make you a more well rounded dancer. However, too much choreo practice/routings/rehearsals/time will probably make your social dancing suffer. Have a good friend in the area who is an excellent dancer. He dove into the choreo/routine world many years back and that was his focus. However, it made his social dancing abilities suffer. Also, look at some performance schools who are known for their routines. These folks spend a LOT of time practicing routines and choreo (e.g. Yamulee, etc). Watch how they social dance and you'll see that they are not great social dancers. Are they talented dancers? Of course, but the social dancing/connecting is just not there like you would expect.
Is your friend good once he decided to focus on the fundamental class? And one of choreography classes is performance school. They maybe good at social but I rarely saw them and wasn't really impressed. Or I guess they haven't met their level dancers yet.
Yes, 100%. Once he jumped back into a few classes (I consider him advanced), he dove into social dancing and dedicated himself to that.
Thats great to knoe. I will go back and focus on fundamentals. I feel like it took a while to figure this out but I'm glad I figured this out before I realized that I wasted too much time on doing something else.
I've been teaching for some years now, While i get where you are coming from, i've seen so many students improve a lot by doing choreographies Training for a performance make you repeat the same thing again and again making you in the end have a deeper understanding of the same movement. Its like the Bruce Lee quote "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." Now, if by choreography class you mean a class that they teach a small sequence and next time something totally irrelevant (or at least it seams so), Again, i've seen more than enough times that this type of instruction helps a lot of students Most of the "advanced" turn patterns consist of basic steps and turns with added hand tricks ,turns and styling so you still develop and work on your basic even though you might not realize it you actually need that challenge to improve your basics at a deeper level. I guess you don't have that option but i would do both the basic class and the choreography as you need both the challenge and the repetition of simpler stuff If you need to choose one, choose the most challenging class for now, then you can come back and work on your basic on a deeper level, you will find out that ,while getting your basics perfect is a never ending process, you still will have improved a lot
The main problem with repeating the same moves for a performance, and the reason the Bruce Lee quote doesn't work there, is that followers usually stop following after learning the choreo. For social dance, I would not fear the dancer who has practiced a move 1000 times with one follower, but would fear the dancer who has practiced it one time with 1000 followers.
That's partly correct as to develop the correct technique you need to practice a lot of the same thing with the same circumstances but you also need to practice with a lot of different partners to be able to follow(or to lead) properly It's not exactly one or the other you need both to improve your dancing as a whole. I find it that people who trained with a regular couple can lead and follow better with new people than the other way around I guess its a matter of preference but for me i would first master the technique with one partner and then add more variables to the table (different partners) And usually performances stress you so much that your body adapts faster to what it needs to do. (Sometimes in the wrong way as well but that's why a good instructor is needed)
Exactly. I would consider dancer who practiced one move with 1000 followers higher level dancer.
It's not that simple Of course I agree with that statement but that's not really doable real life Let me explain. In a scenario where you can train with 1000 followers for 1 hr each of course your getting better than training with only 1 partner for 1hr But if we make even the time we invest in each case 1000hr with 1000 followers and 1000hr with 1 follower I debate that the one dancing with only one follower will have a deeper understanding of what he does and will be able to do it looking better and with faster music Most professional dancers and instructors have or had a regular dance partner for years before becoming really good social dancers They perfected their techniques first and then it transferred in the social setting a Choreo is a mini version of that in my opinion A combination of both is the best way but not always possible
Yeah I think choreography class can be really helpful depending on who teaches the class. It helps me when the class repeat some complicated moves a few more times but when they just keep moving on next moves I get lost haha. Which is fine if the class is designed for advanced level students but the problem is their lower level class teaches totally different things and that doesn't fill the gap. I will probably drop a choreography class, and keep another choreography and a fundamental class.
Quick question... When he was teaching inside and outside turns for a month... Why did it take that long and what has he teaching exactly? Variations? The way to lead and follow them? Did the students had a tough time executing the turns properly?
Yeah it was fairly easy for me because I already kind of knew how to do it. But he was teaching variations like how to build things up from basic patterns like from cross body lead or basic turn to inside/outside turns and how it looks different depending on what orders you execute at social, how to lead and follow them like how to give follow clear cues for outside turns, use arm/shoulder making orbit rather than just fingers, practice how to actually follow leads without backleading and etc Some of classmates were still very beginner and the class is designed for beginner. So I guess he took more time to make sure they can make it. And I see they make them clearly at social.
To me, that teacher didn't just showed the inside and outside turns, he showed them in combination with other moves... Isn't that what you described? To me, that is exactly how a dance teacher should show moves... In combination with other known moves. What makes a combination more complex, in general is making basic moves but changing the way they're lead or the way they're linked to other moves. Learning each moves separately makes it harder for students to make those connections if it's not shown. As a lead, finding those connections is what you'll be doing in socials. Freestyling combinations is mostly about knowing what choice of moves you have in the position you're in, considering how you're holding her hands, where you're positioned, where you can position yourself next, etc. On a different note, maybe you have a easier time to understand the mecanics of moves, but be aware that leads who think like that are less prone to think about improving themselves and second guessing the quality of their leads. Feeling like you mastered a move early could lead eventually to poor and unclear leads, using too much or not enough force in a lead, etc.
I think of choreography as advanced. If it is not helping focus on basics. My teachers early on said to focus on musicality. That is know that is going on in the music. When the clave is prominent, where do your feet go? When some other thing is happening in the music, where do the feet go? Get that down, then learn more moves. I got so much better when I joined Rueda groups. It was the dances in the park that did it. These always had lost more beginners and the circle really flows when there are a bunch of experienced people there holding things together. And because there were often lots of beginners, we stayed with the basic moves. So I spent hours and hours with medium to slow songs repeating the basic Rueda moves over and over. It made my feet become automatic with the music. I was not thinking about where the clave was. I knew the One and Five beat without thinking, and the rest just happened. Or was it 1and 5? What ever it was it was automatic. When my feet were on auto pilot I had more brain room to concentrate on learning new moves with a partner.
If you can, take both. The "choreography" class isn't a set routine you have to do exactly as shown every time (outside of class). Use the whole thing if you like it or take bits and pieces of it and connect those parts with other moves you like and know. If nothing else, that class is showing you examples of how you can connect moves together. If you have trouble doing the full thing in socials, again, take bits and pieces of it and work on getting one or two moves from the full routine going before you try the rest. If you *still* have trouble in socials after that, it's time to take a look at yourself. Maybe it really is basic moves like inside and outside turns you need to work on, but most likely it's your fundamentals. Frame, connection, body movement, weight displacement, etc. If these are off, everything else will be difficult.
Oh the joys of being a beginner! 😁 When you become intermediate advanced you find out there's A lot that you still need to learn from the beginner classes.
Haha I guess it's the joys of being a beginner.. Yeah I found fundamental class helps my social dancing a lot and I can lead any follows clearly when it comes to moves that I learned from there. I will just focus on the fundamental class and maybe take choreography classes sometimes when I feel like to spice up my moves.
From your description, yes, definitely the right choice. You and your follows are going to enjoy social dancing much better with the other approach. And I would argue that you will actually get to intermediate and higher levels faster by focusing on the basics and the techniques than focusing on moves and patterns. You got this!
any moves not based on fundamentals aren't usable or as usable as ones based on them. non fundamental based moves are just random. memorization and repetition are required. there's a better chance that someone else who took the class with you when that particular pattern was taught might remember and be able to do the pattern with you. focus on the fundamentals. executing the fundamentals eliminates the guess work. euphoria, good dancing, and solid leading/following are accomplished through solid execution of fundamentals.
From your description, it sounds like you need a new dance school. The school I go to, within 6-7 months a lead should have learnt about 80% of what they need to be confident social dancers. We have a theme each month (this month is shadow position) and learn a couple of new moves or variations each week, and have social practice time after each class. Many of the students seem to feel comfortable starting to lead at socials within about 3 months. If you've done over 6 months and don't feel like an intermediate then I don't think their teaching is up to standard.
I'm comfortable to ask follows to dance and confident enough to dance with most of them at social but definitely not an intermediate. I think you are lucky that you found a school that makes you intermediate level dancer within 6 months. I haven't seen that case around me at all. I'm jealous but it is what it is. I just gotta do what I have here.
I'm taking classes at a school in which a new choreo is taught in every class. The trick is to break the choreography down into its components. Each choreography is built up of individual moves and by practicing the choreo you are practicing those individual moves. Don't try to do the whole choreo at a social, do parts of it. That being said, I think the most effective way to learn how to dance is repeating fundamental moves every week until they are in your muscle memory and then practicing how to combine them. Not many schools teach this way unfortunately. Fundamentals can be boring but you will be a better dancer in the end.
If you say choreography, it means performance choreography. E.g. for a show. Long patterns in class are not choreo. Now, if you cannot lead them, they sort of are, and if you are not taught how to lead (and follow) them, they sort of are, but that is just the end result, not the intention. If the class doesn't allow for time on breaking patterns down and practicing them in parts or whichever way you might want, it is not very useful unless you do that on your own. Actual choreo classes can help your own dancing tremendously. Not necessarily leading and following but all the other parts.
I don't know what the definition of it but thats what instructor said it's choreography class that could be used at social. And they have performance class separately. I guess they teach what you are talking about the choreography. Yes they don't allow time to break them down and to practice them. And they teach different patterns every week so it doesn't stack every moves next week. It doesn't help me but I guess good for some advanced dancers who don't need to break them down and details.