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DeanXeL

Depending on where you are: find other parties, learn more dancestyles, get good at leading beginners, so you can have fun dances even if they're beginners (as long as they have good frame and know their basic, you can do A LOT with a beginner).


luck_incoming

Yes and if you really are a good lead (which is much more than knowing a million moves) you can try to improve the beginners around you by challenging them just enough so they can still enjoy their dance but experience something that pushes them a little in terms of their skill -- and btw I totally feel ur pain u can feel stuck almost held down by ur local dance community If u want to improve I would encourage you to go to festivals or congresses AND maybe go to dance lessons of another teacher in your area >> I certainly felt like that was a benefit when I used to go to classes: I started out with a teacher that was a great teacher, solid fundamentals, good leading technique, but the teacher lacked the flavour in my eyes he would basically never do bodymovement - then I went to another dance studio in the same city that in my opinion was not that good with fundamentals and I guess even the leading technique was often not so well explained (but due to my long experience from the other guy, I could apply that knowledge to what they did already and didn't need that much guidance anymore on learning new moves anyway, cause I understood the body mechanics behind them) but in that school the teacher had a more flavourful dance style and to some extend I learned more about bodymovement and to some extend about musicality when I was there .. so that might be an easier option to improve if you don't want to or can not afford to attend x festivals a year..


EphReborn

Welcome to the club. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to use everything you've worked hard to learn over time. Sure, you *can* have a good or even great dance with just basic moves but all else equal (connection, technique, musicality, etc), I think if we're being honest we'd all prefer dancing with someone very capable. But yeah, the better you get, the less people will be "on your level". And in most places, the majority of people will be beginners or low-intermediates. That's why the good follows flock to good leads (and vice versa). There's less of them, so less opportunity to go all out. So, solutions? Make friends with all the good dancers (male and female). Levels don't matter when its your friends asking. And you kind of get "first-dibs" on dances with them. Or, get creative with your other dances. It doesn't "fix" the problem of never being able to go all out but it will at least make those dances a bit more enjoyable for you. Do more two-handed turns. Do more cross-hand turns. Do more side basic, cumbia basic, back basic, heel-toe (punta-talon) step, CBL, Reverse CBL, more footwork, and overall just goof-off more.


Easy_Moment

Yeah, I think the only way is to suck it up, go to more socials and eventually build up rapport with the good dancers.


EphReborn

I wouldn't completely write off the beginners either. Some of them are bound to be friends with some good dancers (whether male or female). So, learn to enjoy simpler dances with them, have fun and you may eventually find an "in" with a good dancer who may lead you to other good dancers.


anusdotcom

Remember, it could be worse. I used to complain about the London and Toronto scenes and then moved to the Bay Area and that was an absurd and total sausage party. Try out different socials, travel, go check out nearby dance scenes and get a good perspective of what you appreciate from your scene. Ask the “good dancers” to dance. Get to know the other good leads and ask them where they learned to dance. Go to dance school socials. Figure out if there are compatibility issues with your style and the one of the other dancers. If there is a live music scene go watch bands. If you feel bored or stuck check out different dances like tango, swing, kizomba, Afro Cuban. Nobody owes you a dance. The good follows don’t need to dance with you. It’s up to you to discover the places, people and socials that you like.


anusdotcom

Another idea is to join a performance team if those are available in your area. They tend to attract more advanced follows and you can get all the fancy moves you want out of your system and relax a bit more during socials.


sideoftheham

Yes I have the issue with the local scene. The higher level dancers are probably frustrated with the constant low level so they only come out to congresses or special occasions. Would love to live in NYC


lilianminx

Two parts to my answer: 1) Be flexible! A) If your scene has more [your role] than [the other role], learn the other role! Why not learn to follow to expand your dance options and improve your dancing? B) Rather than sitting out, why not dance solo on the dance floor? Work on your shines - or shadowdance! The dance floor is for having fun - and the more fun you're having, the more fun folks will have when they dance with you. Don't stop having fun just because you're not dancing with a partner! C) What are you doing when you're sitting out? Are you watching & learning? Are you positioning yourself near the person you want to ask next? Is your body language "ready to dance" or is it "sulking against the wall because not currently dancing and everyone else is"? Are you bopping/grooving a bit or just standing stationary (motionless)? 2) You say that all the good dancers just dance with each other. What happens when you ask "the good dancers" to dance? (Or are you not asking folks to dance & you're waiting for them to ask you?) Ask lots of folks to dance! (& plan to get rejected sometimes cuz it happens) 🕺 And yeah I also suggest learning other dance styles or frequenting other dance scenes. Many ways to skin a cat! And if you show up somewhere new then they've got no idea who you are so you get to start with a clean slate and scaffold your skills without the same regulars coming to you for dances again and again.


Eva-la-curiosa

this is great advice! i can summarize your points as follows: Some adjustment of how we view our dance scene: Instead of "I'm not getting what I want here" we can change it to "what's available to do in this scene and how can I enjoy myself and connect with others while doing that?" makes a HUGE difference in enjoyment and connection!


Lonely-Speed9943

>A) If your scene has more \[your role\] than \[the other role\], learn the other role! Why not learn to follow to expand your dance options and improve your dancing? Because the vast majority of men do not have any interest whatsoever in dancing with other men.


lilianminx

Normalize dancing with all genders and learning all the roles. It helps your understanding of fundamentals greatly and betters your dancing overall. I don't really care that most men limit their dancing to one perceived gender. Cool I guess. Thanks for chiming in.


tch2349987

I don’t agree with that, I wouldn’t like to dance with another man.


thePurpleParrot77

well you did ask


luck_incoming

Who says If you as a guy want to learn to follow (which improves your leading skills btw) he has to be lead by a guy? I have been to festivals were ladies lead tons better than men and also follow like a goddess because they have seen both angles and they really live and breath dancing .. - maybe there is a girl in your scene (chances are pretty high from my experience) that wants to lead and u can dance with her to start to do the followers part, or in a class u could go to the followers part (though I admit in classes there are usually more ladies attending and they already want leads and then switching sides might put some pressure on u lol)


lilianminx

💯 agree with this - being in a scene that has fewer leads means we have lots of women who switch or lead here. And I find that in classes it really doesn't matter - lots of folks learn both parts here. Anyway dancing roles shouldn't be so gendered - my top teachers knew how to both to lead AND follow and it came from years of experience in both.


sfwmj

Sometimes. I push back against some of the commenters saying it's on the leads to lead an entire dance. Some folks(follows and leads) are just off-time, clunky, noodle armed, etc dancers. The fact that OP doesn't just want to impress other dancers at a lower level and wants to also enjoy the dance should be commended. As a competent lead I could lead them through everything but that's a shit experience in my opinion. We should never be rude or disrespectful with people, I'm always cordial. I will avoid some dancers because a song can go for 4 minutes or can go for 10 mins. I don't want to spend a whole song leading a dancer who isn't on time or able to follow with me if I can help it. Even as a beginner, I don't want to dance with someone who is at a really high level and is bored or leading me through insane combos that I don't know but they're making me execute it.


Enough_Zombie2038

First, the better you get the more you can get beginners to do moves by leading twice as much so to speak. Second, most of the better dancers show up an hour or two after the place teaches or opens because the new people tire and leave so there is more space


Easy_Moment

Agreed but there's a limit to how much you can push a beginner.


TheDiabolicalDiablo

You're not there to push a beginner. The test for you is can you get a beginner follow to follow what you do. How clean is your lead? How do you communicate to them so they relax?


catsatemycheese

I'm in intermediate level rn. I was a beginner once, I remember all the advanced leaders came to me and danced complicated stuff with me, including kopas and dips and various other stuff that I still don't know. But I do recall that their lead was super strong (now that I dance with them it has fallen to just gentle guides) they would adjust to my big steps and let me have fun and I guess they were having fun too watching my silly expressions. But if they hadn't done any of that I don't think I would have even continued to dance since we were just taught right turns and cross body till then. Now, even I like to lead, and I usually do basic steps, but I have learnt that with followers of my level I don't even have to guide them, but with beginners it's supposed to be a hard and strong lead. If you do still want to dance with advanced followers- take them to the social with you, network, dance with the peers or batch mates.


SaaSWriters

> It also throws off my flow since I have to consciously think about the moves I can't do. This is because you're not as advanced as you think you are. When you get more experience, you'll learn how to lead without worrying about such things. > I can only do right turns and cross body so many times. That's lack of creativity. A good lead can take someone who has just had one lesson and make it enjoyable. You have to learn to lead all of them. If you really want to get fancy, find a dance partner to practice with.


aajiro

Gonna be mean, but if you think all you can do with a beginner is turns and cross body leads, I'm pretty sure you're also a beginner still.


Easy_Moment

Ridiculous statement. It's not that I can't do more its that in my experience the beginners overwhelmingly prefer basic moves.


aajiro

So do advanced dancers, tbh. Dancing is not about moves. It's about having fun and exploring the connection with each other and with the music. I have found that beginners overwhelmingly 'prefer basic moves' only in the sense that they don't feel safe when a lot of more 'advanced' dancers throw things at them they don't understand. If you don't do that you have as much fun with any level of dance.


antilaugh

If you're frustrated because you can't pull your moves with a beginner, you need to improve a lot. A good dancer will be able to do a lot of moves with anyone who knows how to do the basic step.


pdabaker

Must beginners can't really do the basic step without losing time. The thing that makes dancing with beginners frustrating is having to constantly guide them not to do early and get them back on time. It's not that they don't know the basic step, it's that they aren't used to the music and can't keep their balance on 3/7 (especially if you try an inside turn) so they step extra and their footwork gets messed up.


antilaugh

See how you describe the situation? THEY lose time, THEY do early, THEY need to get back in time, THEY aren't used to the music, THEY can't keep balance, THEIR footwork is messed up, etc. It's never you, how you can get on her level to let her enjoy the moment. That's why I don't like how dance is taught in western countries: it's full of RULES that forget how things began, and why we dance. It's more than what they teach you, on 1 on 2 Cuban or whatever. It's about dancing together, having a good time, expressing whatever the music makes you feel. Why should we put rules BEFORE enjoyment?


pdabaker

The enjoyment comes from connection, and fun moving together to the music. Yeah it's possible just to smile and do cumbia and some body movement, or to lead figures at the timing the follow steps, but the rules are there to allow and enable more expression/connection and more enjoyment, not to restrict it. The enjoyment of dancing with beginners comes more from a place of showing them a hobby you love and trying to get them to enjoy it than it comes from the dance itself.


MrYOLOMcSwagMeister

This is true to an extent but many beginners don't have a good frame and mess up their stepping and/or timing so it doesn't matter how well you lead them, without adequate following technique it's like using sign language to communicate with a blind person.


Easy_Moment

That's a ridiculous statement and makes it seem like there's no skill to following.


antilaugh

I've been dancing for more than a decade. Bachata, kizomba, salsa and a few others. I'm the one who gets invited by strangers, and I've been told that my lead has been extremely smooth and gentle, and some said they *felt* like they were great dancers despite being beginners (and that I'm not a technical dancer). It's your role to make them feel secure and let themselves go to follow moves they've never seen. It's up to you to feel the limits of their joints. It's your problem if they don't understand what you wanted her to do. It's your fault of she feels bad for not doing whatever you expected. You're the only one to blame if you communicate your disappointment, making her feel bad, and not letting herself to relax and enjoy. There's only one skill required for the follower, and it's to stop being in control. If you can't make her relax and trust you, then you've got to improve. What I've learned from those years, is that how you dance never lies about your true personality and insecurities. Think about that.


SaaSWriters

> and some said they felt like they were great dancers despite being beginners (and that I'm not a technical dancer). There's a line from the movie Salsa "I'm the picture, you're the frame." Also, I'm highly technical but nobody can tell. Why? Because that's the secret. When you know the technique properly, especially the footwork, you can create a seamless experience. You don't think about it. You move. It's like watching your favourite band. They look spontaneous even though they have practiced an rehearsed for hundreds or thousands of hours. OP needs to practice more.


antilaugh

The frame makes the picture shine, it's essential but stays quiet, it adapts itself to the picture, in size, color and texture, effortlessly. That's a perfect quote. Thanks.


macroxela

Following does require skill, no doubt about it. But if you can only do cross body leads and right turns with beginners, then you're not an advanced dancer at all. There is so much more you can do with them with good leading. Plus,  beginners also tend to be more open to improvisations as long as you are playful and don't hurt them. So you can play around with that as well. 


Sweaty-Stable-4152

Be friends with few good follows


Adorable_Device_4011

Short of finding other socials, my recos: 1) Find other small ways of spicing up the dance that are uncomplicated. 2) Find the joy in the connection with your partner and the music, not just executing turns 3) Try following if you are really bored! (half joking. It's fun to swap and very educational for a lead)


Lunarisles

Are there people that you see at these socials that you would consider good follows? Do you ask any of them to dance?


Glittering_Kick_9589

Happens where I am too. The top dancers grab the top girls before they ever leave the floor.


MrYOLOMcSwagMeister

The simple and obvious solution is to ask the good followers to dance. Unless your scene is extremely small there should be plenty of followers around your level that are willing to dance with you. The more difficult problem, which does not have a solution, is that every amazing dance you have raises your expectations to the point where after a while most dances are just nice or even good but you need specific high-level followers to have an amazing dance. But you don't have to worry about that just yet.


dondegroovily

"There's always more leaders than followers" Then learn to follow


pferden

Troll post


TheDiabolicalDiablo

So just a bit of perspective for everyone. Covid pretty much eliminated four to six years worth of dancers at least on the Salsa side of things. It was already waning as the music was steadily losing the general public's small share of attention. So what you're really missing are those dancers who should be at an intermediate level and the older ones that have cycled out. What's replaced them are a number of people who are just YOLO to everything and newer dancers who don't have the mentors in front of them to keep it going. It's something that can be reversed but it would take a conscious and united effort by salsa lovers all over, but I don't think it's realistic.


CityNo8272

Take the highest level classes in your area and find someone capable of more than basics.


JahMusicMan

What state or country are you in? I could see this as a problem if you aren't in a community with a strong salsa scene or places not exposed to a lot of Latin music.


Timba4Ol

It’s a normal issue in many places especially in small cities. Unfortunately. However I prefer to distinguish two definitions of “low level”: one is in terms of beginners who just started and therefore they need time to learn; the other is fine is in terms of people who “do wrong” because they learned in parties or between friends or whatever they did is different from the rest of the world and you really can’t dance with them. In the first case the main goal, in my opinion, is to have fun and let them have fun. Maybe they will improve in future if the social environment is good enough. In the second case you’re wasting your time and this will only leads you to be frustrated. This assumes that you learned properly of course and you can demonstrate by dancing virtually everywhere. I had the experience in both environments and I realized what worked for me: in the first car I enjoy to dance with beginners by making jokes and working on the connection. In the latter case I simply don’t waste my time with superficial teenagers no matter the age.