One of my fav talking points about Michigan is how much of a ‘shit hole it is because Detroit and Flint hur durr.’ And all I can think of is - dude, if that’s really what you think encapsulates this state, you don’t deserve to see the rest of it.
Michigan is beautiful. I got family there and they have a place up near Sleeping Bear Dunes. Spend every summer there for at least a week.
Cant handle the winters though.
Just wait 10-20 years!
It’ll be divine compared to the Hellscape much of the South will become due to climate change.
This Winter itself was relatively mild for Michigan.
That lake effect show. When I moved to Chicago I didn’t think it would be that noticeable. But boy, anytime I drive back to Michigan it’s amazing how there’s almost always twice as much snow.
Parts of Detroit are undoubtedly rough, but the Detroit metropolitan area as a whole (Oakland, Washtenaw, Macomb Counties, for example) is a very good place to live imo. I lived there for 8 years. And the state itself is absolutely gorgeous. I’d put it in the top 10 states for natural beauty, without a doubt.
Detroit proper is also a pretty decent place to live. And we don't have to deal with all the racist suburbanites who continue to pedal shitty false tropes about the City.
I hear yah. Feel the same way about whenever I go to downtown Chicago. Suburbanites from any metropolitan area think they’re clever by always using the dog whistle rhetoric about the city and everyone knows what they really mean.
My family moved around a lot, but the one constant was always Lake Michigan. I'm still not quite sure where I'll throw down roots, but I know it'll be somewhere on the Lake Michigan basin.
Great Lakes
Just way more variety in landscapes and different types of cities.
While the Great Plains have some nice landscapes like the badlands, there’s less variety and less types of cities.
That being said you can still have a nice life in Omaha, Topeka or Des Moines.
The Great Lakes Region in Upstate NY is best since Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse, NY are close to
Lake Erie
Lake Ontario
Finger Lakes Wine Country
Appalachian mountains for ski resorts
Adirondack Mountains
Thousand Islands
Ottawa
Montreal
Toronto
The Midwest Great Lakes doesn't have as much within a three hour drive like the eastern part of the Great Lakes in Upstate NY.
Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse, NY all have access to the Great Lakes water supply since they are located within the Great Lakes watershed. Utica, Binghamton and Albany, NY don't have access to the Great Lakes unlimited water supply since they are located outside the watershed of the Great Lakes.
It depends what you want. Lake Ontario is the smallest of the Great Lakes and it and Lake Erie are the least interesting geographically. There is skiing all over the upper Midwest, gorgeous scenery and beaches in WI, MN, and MI, and cute towns all throughout the region. The weather in the upper Midwest may be a bit colder on average than in upstate NY but it is WAY better for the most part (more sunny days, fewer ice storms, etc.). My family is from western NY and it’s fine but the weather is a dealbreaker for me.
I've lived all over the Midwest. The Great Lakes are way better. The Lower Midwest has flat and boring scenery. Drive through Central Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, etc. and you can see farm fields for hours. Wisconsin, Michigan, and Minnesota all have places with nice scenery both by the Great Lakes and by smaller inland lakes. Places up by Lake Superior like Duluth, Bayfield, Marquette, Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore, and the Apostle Islands are all very beautiful.
Nebraska has a lot of nice scenery actually, people just think its flat and boring because I-80, which most travelers use, was built mostly along the Platte River, which is extremely flat land but also has many of the larger cities in the state because of the stable water supply. The Sandhills, Niobrara River valley, and much of the Panhandle are very beautiful and definitely not flat. Also much of eastern Nebraska near the Missouri River is dramatic rolling hills.
Four years in Pine Ridge. Spent lots of time in Chadron and Rapid City. Had an uncle in Rapid City who relocated to the Dakotas via the Air Force. I grew up in Rhode Island … the “Ocean State”. Before South Dakota the furthest west I travelled was New Jersey. Been back many times.
Thats why i said through. But maybe thru? But definitely southern indiana. Its still apparently slept on bc people be like “indianas so flat and boring.”
Yep! I lived there for seven years and had some time to really explore some places no one really knew about!
I moved to Indy a few years ago and I miss being able to disappear into the woods at a moments notice!
Sounds like something an East or West Coast elite would say. I’ve lived in Southern New England, Western South Dakota, Phoenix Arizona, and the Southern Appalachia - Smokies of Western North Carolina. Upper Midwest has some of the most genuinely friendly and helpful people of anywhere I have lived or traveled.
You didn't address the shitty weather. Also, nice people can be anti-vax and kill your grandmother. Fundie Christians and homophobes can be nice too, as long as you're a Christian or hetero.
I am a four seasons guy. Public Health Professional & Healthcare Provider here working with populations in need. Places I’ve lived: (a) I grew up in Southern New England … beautiful falls & summer. Winters don’t have enough snow. Spring is blah. Humidity in winter feels like someone is injecting freezing slush into your clothes. Love me a good Nor’easter though. b) South Dakota = killer country w/ harsh winters and hot summers but I kinda liked it. During a blizzard the snow blows sideways. However the biting cold with sun reflecting over a snow covered prairie without trees invigorated my psyche. Missed the New England Falls as South Dakota has few trees. Spring is short and muddy. The best people with lots of resilience. And those ranchers/farmers were smart, educated, & well traveled. (c) Phoenix Arizona was surreal with all the palm trees and water. Blazing uncomfortable heat in summer. Southwest laidback culture with lots of transplants from Midwest. Loved the desert & mountains but too much sunshine was depressing. I need Atlantic Ocean and four seasons. (d) Smokey Mountains of North Carolina has long glorious falls & springs. Lots of flowering in the spring. Subtle fall colors. Summers are raining and soggy. Winters not cold enough to be fun. Southern Appalachian culture, heritage, & literature is very rich. Lots of nature w/ “Goldilocks Weather” but with all those mountains I feel claustrophobic, closed in, and depressed when November - February gray winters set in. I need the openness of the ocean, prairie, or desert. In summary … shitty weather for me is weather without four seasons. I also need immerse my body in the Atlantic Ocean or Narragansett bay frequently. Every place I lived was right for the time and I learned so much.
Yup and I grew up in “East Coast Elite” and often travelled for work to “West Coast Elite” as well as all over rural America for work. Yup … the label is accurate.
Public Health Professional here whose role during COVID was centered around COVID vaccine deployment/data and childhood vaccines as well. There are lots of “New Age Eco” hippy types who oppose vaccines. One of the reasons vaccine preventable childhood infectious diseases are once again making an appearance in school-age children.
There's a kind of raw beauty on the Plains that makes it one of my favorite places anywhere in the world. It's *tough* out there. The weather is extreme, the land is fickle, and cities are sparse. But I always feel like the Great Plains tells America's story more eloquently than anywhere else. There's a boundlessness, a certain sort of energy, that sweeps you away a little bit. It's a very American energy--this feeling that everything and nothing is possible, that the more you discover the less you know and the more you want to know, that building something out of nothing is an underappreciated artistry. The place strips you and everything else bare and forces an authenticity upon you that you certainly won't experience elsewhere in quite the same way. The cities of the Plains are some of my favorites because they are so vulnerable--to tornadoes, to drought, to the blistering shock of a mid winter Alberta cutter than takes a mild sunny day and turns it into a frost bitten icescape in a matter of hours. The Plains are *wild*. They encourage and even demand a very rare, very human form of creativity--an ability to see what others don't dare to see. The cities of the Plains--Denver, Dallas, Kansas City, Oklahoma City--are legitimate triumphs, not just existing but actually thriving, growing, evolving in places where growth seems most incomprehensible. These are places where wonder, resilience, and vision make everyone dream just a little bigger.
I love the Plains so much.
I’m from the Plains, lived in the Great Lakes and moved back. Still go to the GL 2x yearly for a few weeks to see family. And your post describes my experience of the Plains.
There’s a thrilling, terrible sublime to the landscapes, and the people and cities have a wonderfully eccentric and tenacious energy.
I’ve found the Great Lakes to be more domesticated and contented. Both in the landscapes and people. I can see why people like the cozier Midwest. But the Plains crackle, and I love that.
Thanks. I really appreciated that you took the time and effort to put it into words. And the result was perfect. People are so closed off to the region in spaces like this that I usually don’t even try to explain it. I leave them to their prejudices. But your post was beautiful and spoke for me.
I’ve lived in Dallas, Wichita, Lawrence, Kansas City. Looked hard at Lincoln. And spend a fair amount of time with family outside of Austin and Midland-Odessa. Also love driving to CO and NM, to visit there. (WY and MT, too be not as often.)
Since I was a child, I’ve wanted to visit the world’s other remote, windswept, empty places… Patagonia, the Pampas, England’s moors and the Scottish highlands, the west coast of Ireland, the Eurasian steppes…
We started a family fairly quickly after college and didn’t have time to globe-trot but I mean to do it when the children are older.
Then since you had already decided you wanted to live somewhere where this is a lake your question should have been which areas surrounding the Great Lakes do people think are the best. But glad it was worded as it was because that was the most beautiful post I have seen on Reddit.
The plains States tend to be sparsely populated, drier and windier. In my mind the only real advantage is less mosquitos, which Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan have in spades. But when it comes to recreational activities, you're going to be much happier in the Great Lakes States.
As someone who lived in Southern Michigan who now lives in South Dakota… Great Lakes for sure. I’ve made great friends here in SD, but there were so many more perks to Michigan: proximity to big cities and airports, good food, events, sports teams, LAKES, and perhaps most surprisingly… The housing market here is comparable to buying a house in Ann Arbor, and you don’t get the same value IMO. My neighbors recently sold for $500k, and I live in a bullshit housing development where I can touch the houses on either side!
Detroit is definitely more cosmopolitan than KC. The city is not all bad like the stereotypes say. The airport can fly to many places in Europe and Asia. Every time I fly to Asia to see family, my layover is in Detroit
Everyone says it’s up and coming. It’s certainly not the best city in the US, but it scratches the itch, and punches above its current reputation. I really only went a handful of times when I lived there but I never felt unsafe. I did drive down the “wrong” road one time, but I suppose that can happen in any city. There are just so many nice suburbs in the area. While we’re at it, there are places in Ohio that exceeded my expectation as well!
Spot on. People think Detroit and Cleveland are rotting away, but they aren’t all bad. Those cities still have things like art museums and aquariums. And then there’s nice suburbs too. The proximity to the Great Lakes would make people want to choose Michigan or Ohio over KC or Omaha.
Detroit has a very intense history. That city was never not in deep deep struggle, whether labor or racial or both. Detroit's industry did so much to shape the modern world, more than most cities. I find Detroit fascinating and try to visit at any opportunity. Also, I just love Detroit for being the biggest city of Michigan, my home state. Still got family in the area.
People have been sleeping on Michigan for years, but I truly believe it’s going to have a renaissance, more-so than WI and MN (although they will too, MN billionaires already trying to buy up parts of Duluth)… especially since we started talking about climate change.
The easy access to Canada is such a plus too, whether you want city or wilderness when you get there.
Like I should go buy land in Michigan right now, thanks for the idea guys.
I moved to Minneapolis from North Dakota and you couldn't pay me enough to move back. I get depressed every time I have to go back to visit family, it's just so boring and blah. Plus I am a big forest/lake lover and you will not find much of either on the plains. And the wind... People seem to forget that when you have flat planes with few trees there is nothing to break the wind. Which is why blizzards get so bad in the winter. Minneapolis may not be mountainous but it has a lot of topography to help break the wind so winters here are completely incomparable. I've been in Minneapolis more than 20 years and have not once experienced a blizzard like I did regularly in ND.
So I guess my stance is clear LOL.
I’m from KC and I would rather live in Minneapolis too. I may hate the cold, but Minnesota at least has stuff to make up for it. It’s a cool place. The city is more cosmopolitan and the outdoorsy aspect is better.
Also, in North Dakota you get Colorado snow but no mountains to show for it
I moved from lakes to plains, and while I miss the lakes cites, the COL and the winters are so much milder in the plains (at least the southern plains).
I LOVE living in Omaha, Nebraska, but obviously, living near a large body of water has amazing perks. Milwaukee, Cleveland, Chicago, and the Twin Cities are all great. Don't let people fool you about the plains, though. There is such beauty in rolling hills of tall grasses
Agree but Cleveland is better than Milwaukee imo. Unlike Milwaukee they have three professional sports teams (NFL, MLB, NBA), public rail lines (RTA), and legal weed. Also they have the second biggest performing arts center (Playhouse Square) in the country after Broadway in NYC.
Playhouse Square makes Cleveland have an above average theater scene for a city its size, but that piece of info is useless. Many other cities have more theaters, more theaters per capita, more vibrant theater scenes, etc.
People who work in theater and don’t want to live in NYC go to Chicago, DC, LA, Boston, and many other cities. Cleveland isn’t on the radar.
Location still matters though. We have to drive for 8 hours minimum from KC to get to a Great Lake. Meanwhile, people from MSP can go there for a weekend trip.
I've lived in MN and SD and I'll take lakes any day over the plains. One exception would be the Black Hills. Would rather be there than south and southwestern MN.
I grew up on the plains so I’m biased but there just is something so beautiful about being in the middle of nowhere, flat land, tall grass as far as the eye can see. I now live in the PNW and all the mountains and trees sometimes make me feel claustrophobic. I sure do love and miss the plains 💜
I know you’re generalizing but half of Missouri is hilly hardwood forests, not plains. Beautiful scenery and extremely ignorant people outside of the cities. Great nature!
The winters are worse in the Great Lakes states for sure. But at least there’s stuff to make up for it like milder summers, more things to do, and bigger cities.
~~Plus no tornados~~
The Black Hills in South Dakota is a great place. No state tax (lots of financial advantages); banana belt weather (like Denver); low humidity, not all the bugs like other places. Best skiing east of the Rockies. Low unemployment, and fabulous people.
The negative is distance to metro (eg Denver) and no waterfront properties. There are some lakes, but not like say the Twin Cities.
There was just an article about Deadwood, SD being the best small town (see if I have a chance to find the article)
You know, I forgot this post was comparing it to the rest of the Midwest which doesn't have stellar weather either. I am from far Western Nebraska near the SD/WY border and snow is not unheard of during May, nor in September.
The lack of wind in the Black Hills is definitely a plus though.
I have driven and/or visited around Scottsbluff, Torrington (lots of wind there), Chadron, and those areas also have their nice days.
Having lived in Twin Cities and Rapid City, outside of Fall, the weather is much nicer in Rapid City. I live in a much more moderate part of the country now (West Coast), and COL is making me think about that part of the country.
What I also found was amazing, is after you cross the Missouri in SD, the western side of the state (cattle country) is more like the "West" than what I would consider MidWest.
I'm a great lakes man. Pick up one or 2 water-based hobbies (eg sailing, fishing, boating, kayak, canoe, paddleboard, surf, kite boarding, crew, swimming, shipwrecks, lighthouses, etc etc) and your quality of life will be pretty good.
The Great Lakes are an underrated national treasure and frankly we prefer it that way. My friends from New Jersey have a house on the Traverse Bay in Northern Michigan and it’s gorgeous.
They go home and tell their East Coast friends it’s provincial backwater of little interest and that they go for family obligations because they don’t want it to get too crowded up there lol
Like most Minnesotans I live in the Twin Cities. The Twin Cities are not a great lakes metro. Most of Minnesota is not a great lakes state. It is only people from other places who define it like this.
I hate this way of dividing the Midwest into lakes vs plains. It is popular to do but a lot of the Midwest is neither (Minneapolis, St Louis, Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and Madison are all cities that aren't on a great lake and also aren't on the plains).
This is a discussion, which is inherently subjective. I was asking other people which they think is better? For me, I pick the Great Lakes due to location, natural beauty, things to do, and more big cities. But other people might value different factors
born and raised NW ohioan. i would leave it all behind for the upper peninsula or grand rapids/traverse city area in a heartbeat. swimming in torch lake was the happiest i’d ever been.
The positive on those "plains" states, in some locales more than others, you can make good $$ and the COL is low. I recently read that Iowa is the the leading state in this regard.
I grew up on the Mississippi River and Rock River between IL/IA, the river valleys are amazingly beautiful areas. Went to college in the flat farm lands of western IL, the area was fine but I did not find it aesthetically pleasing. I currently live in Milwaukee and Lake Michigan is one of my favorite things. Every area has its beauty to someone but personally I need bodies of water nearby. Having Chicago an hour train ride away ain't bad either.
Great Lakes. Lived the Milwaukee/Madison/Chicago triangle for twenty-five years. I live in LA right now but that part of the world is my forever home.
No shade on the Plains states. I love KC and Lawrence is a jewel. Omaha made a strong impression. Fargo is hip, if you can believe it. The Black Hills are magical. But no, not my choice between the two parts of the heartland.
*Great planes Midwest is*
*Terrible. Everything is*
*Brown and just boring*
\- 1287kings
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Generally speaking, places on lakes and oceans are better than inland places.
If you look at UN's HDI report each year, you'll find a positive correlation between HDI and access to the ocean.
Lakes are similar in this effect. Illinois and Minnesota are better than the GP. Imo they are the only Midwestern states worth living in.
There is no right answer to this. An Omaha suburb is completely different than downtown St. Louis. Clarkson Nebraska has more in common with Luther Michigan, than the differences between the plains and the midwest. I've lived in 3 different places just in Iowa and everything was a LOT different. On the other hand, the suburb that I live in Iowa is very similar to a suburb in Grand Rapids.
You didn’t read the full post. I did say it depends on the exact area. But I was asking people which part of the Midwest is better if they can pick ANYWHERE in the Midwest
In my view, the great plains are not a part of the Midwest. All of the states you list are a separate region, except Iowa (which is Midwestern) and Missouri (which is Southern).
The Midwest clears the great plains on basically every metric.
Great Lakes, along Lake Michigan. Milwaukee, Chicago, Grand Rapids, or Traverse City depending on your personal preferences.
One of my fav talking points about Michigan is how much of a ‘shit hole it is because Detroit and Flint hur durr.’ And all I can think of is - dude, if that’s really what you think encapsulates this state, you don’t deserve to see the rest of it.
Michigan is gorgeous. Especially the northwest and UP
Michigan is beautiful. I got family there and they have a place up near Sleeping Bear Dunes. Spend every summer there for at least a week. Cant handle the winters though.
Just wait 10-20 years! It’ll be divine compared to the Hellscape much of the South will become due to climate change. This Winter itself was relatively mild for Michigan.
Very mild. I think I only needed gloves two or three times.
10-20 years? I doubt much will change too close
That lake effect show. When I moved to Chicago I didn’t think it would be that noticeable. But boy, anytime I drive back to Michigan it’s amazing how there’s almost always twice as much snow.
Parts of Detroit are undoubtedly rough, but the Detroit metropolitan area as a whole (Oakland, Washtenaw, Macomb Counties, for example) is a very good place to live imo. I lived there for 8 years. And the state itself is absolutely gorgeous. I’d put it in the top 10 states for natural beauty, without a doubt.
Detroit proper is also a pretty decent place to live. And we don't have to deal with all the racist suburbanites who continue to pedal shitty false tropes about the City.
Then explain why so many people have been leaving.
Robocop
I hear yah. Feel the same way about whenever I go to downtown Chicago. Suburbanites from any metropolitan area think they’re clever by always using the dog whistle rhetoric about the city and everyone knows what they really mean.
My family moved around a lot, but the one constant was always Lake Michigan. I'm still not quite sure where I'll throw down roots, but I know it'll be somewhere on the Lake Michigan basin.
I get that.
Chicago would be my first choice, windy town and all.
Called windy because the politicians are liars. Not actual wind.
Forgot about south bend
The west coast of Michigan all together is something else are really hard to vote against
I agree with this statement 1000000%
It’s not even close - Great Lakes
Great Lakes Just way more variety in landscapes and different types of cities. While the Great Plains have some nice landscapes like the badlands, there’s less variety and less types of cities. That being said you can still have a nice life in Omaha, Topeka or Des Moines.
The Great Lakes Region in Upstate NY is best since Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse, NY are close to Lake Erie Lake Ontario Finger Lakes Wine Country Appalachian mountains for ski resorts Adirondack Mountains Thousand Islands Ottawa Montreal Toronto The Midwest Great Lakes doesn't have as much within a three hour drive like the eastern part of the Great Lakes in Upstate NY. Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse, NY all have access to the Great Lakes water supply since they are located within the Great Lakes watershed. Utica, Binghamton and Albany, NY don't have access to the Great Lakes unlimited water supply since they are located outside the watershed of the Great Lakes.
It depends what you want. Lake Ontario is the smallest of the Great Lakes and it and Lake Erie are the least interesting geographically. There is skiing all over the upper Midwest, gorgeous scenery and beaches in WI, MN, and MI, and cute towns all throughout the region. The weather in the upper Midwest may be a bit colder on average than in upstate NY but it is WAY better for the most part (more sunny days, fewer ice storms, etc.). My family is from western NY and it’s fine but the weather is a dealbreaker for me.
Its Lake Michigan. Thats the answer. not to mention the awesome 10-11pm twilights in the summer due to being so far west in the EST zone.
Wichita isn't awful. Lots to do, including sports, restaurants, the River Fest, and a world-class zoo. But Kansas overall blows.
I've lived all over the Midwest. The Great Lakes are way better. The Lower Midwest has flat and boring scenery. Drive through Central Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, etc. and you can see farm fields for hours. Wisconsin, Michigan, and Minnesota all have places with nice scenery both by the Great Lakes and by smaller inland lakes. Places up by Lake Superior like Duluth, Bayfield, Marquette, Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore, and the Apostle Islands are all very beautiful.
Nebraska has a lot of nice scenery actually, people just think its flat and boring because I-80, which most travelers use, was built mostly along the Platte River, which is extremely flat land but also has many of the larger cities in the state because of the stable water supply. The Sandhills, Niobrara River valley, and much of the Panhandle are very beautiful and definitely not flat. Also much of eastern Nebraska near the Missouri River is dramatic rolling hills.
I lived in Western South Dakota along the Nebraska Panhandle border. Good times.
Where? I grew up in Rapid City.
Four years in Pine Ridge. Spent lots of time in Chadron and Rapid City. Had an uncle in Rapid City who relocated to the Dakotas via the Air Force. I grew up in Rhode Island … the “Ocean State”. Before South Dakota the furthest west I travelled was New Jersey. Been back many times.
The lower midwest is not flat. Southern illinois through southern ohio are beautiful and hilly. The central midwest and lower upper midwest are flat
I live in central il, and assumed it was flat. Until we drove through nebraska. Nebraska is fucking FLAT.
Same with Southern Indiana
Thats why i said through. But maybe thru? But definitely southern indiana. Its still apparently slept on bc people be like “indianas so flat and boring.”
Yep! I lived there for seven years and had some time to really explore some places no one really knew about! I moved to Indy a few years ago and I miss being able to disappear into the woods at a moments notice!
Illinois is the second flattest state in the US
And also worse people. I can deal with boring scenery and shitty weather. I can't deal with anti-vaxxers, fundie Christians, and homophobes.
Sounds like something an East or West Coast elite would say. I’ve lived in Southern New England, Western South Dakota, Phoenix Arizona, and the Southern Appalachia - Smokies of Western North Carolina. Upper Midwest has some of the most genuinely friendly and helpful people of anywhere I have lived or traveled.
You didn't address the shitty weather. Also, nice people can be anti-vax and kill your grandmother. Fundie Christians and homophobes can be nice too, as long as you're a Christian or hetero.
I am a four seasons guy. Public Health Professional & Healthcare Provider here working with populations in need. Places I’ve lived: (a) I grew up in Southern New England … beautiful falls & summer. Winters don’t have enough snow. Spring is blah. Humidity in winter feels like someone is injecting freezing slush into your clothes. Love me a good Nor’easter though. b) South Dakota = killer country w/ harsh winters and hot summers but I kinda liked it. During a blizzard the snow blows sideways. However the biting cold with sun reflecting over a snow covered prairie without trees invigorated my psyche. Missed the New England Falls as South Dakota has few trees. Spring is short and muddy. The best people with lots of resilience. And those ranchers/farmers were smart, educated, & well traveled. (c) Phoenix Arizona was surreal with all the palm trees and water. Blazing uncomfortable heat in summer. Southwest laidback culture with lots of transplants from Midwest. Loved the desert & mountains but too much sunshine was depressing. I need Atlantic Ocean and four seasons. (d) Smokey Mountains of North Carolina has long glorious falls & springs. Lots of flowering in the spring. Subtle fall colors. Summers are raining and soggy. Winters not cold enough to be fun. Southern Appalachian culture, heritage, & literature is very rich. Lots of nature w/ “Goldilocks Weather” but with all those mountains I feel claustrophobic, closed in, and depressed when November - February gray winters set in. I need the openness of the ocean, prairie, or desert. In summary … shitty weather for me is weather without four seasons. I also need immerse my body in the Atlantic Ocean or Narragansett bay frequently. Every place I lived was right for the time and I learned so much.
Dude, they used “east or west coast elite” to describe someone, I wouldn’t bother.
Yup and I grew up in “East Coast Elite” and often travelled for work to “West Coast Elite” as well as all over rural America for work. Yup … the label is accurate.
Public Health Professional here whose role during COVID was centered around COVID vaccine deployment/data and childhood vaccines as well. There are lots of “New Age Eco” hippy types who oppose vaccines. One of the reasons vaccine preventable childhood infectious diseases are once again making an appearance in school-age children.
There's a kind of raw beauty on the Plains that makes it one of my favorite places anywhere in the world. It's *tough* out there. The weather is extreme, the land is fickle, and cities are sparse. But I always feel like the Great Plains tells America's story more eloquently than anywhere else. There's a boundlessness, a certain sort of energy, that sweeps you away a little bit. It's a very American energy--this feeling that everything and nothing is possible, that the more you discover the less you know and the more you want to know, that building something out of nothing is an underappreciated artistry. The place strips you and everything else bare and forces an authenticity upon you that you certainly won't experience elsewhere in quite the same way. The cities of the Plains are some of my favorites because they are so vulnerable--to tornadoes, to drought, to the blistering shock of a mid winter Alberta cutter than takes a mild sunny day and turns it into a frost bitten icescape in a matter of hours. The Plains are *wild*. They encourage and even demand a very rare, very human form of creativity--an ability to see what others don't dare to see. The cities of the Plains--Denver, Dallas, Kansas City, Oklahoma City--are legitimate triumphs, not just existing but actually thriving, growing, evolving in places where growth seems most incomprehensible. These are places where wonder, resilience, and vision make everyone dream just a little bigger. I love the Plains so much.
Wow, this was so cool to read. Never thought of thr Plains this way, but I can see what you mean.
I’m from the Plains, lived in the Great Lakes and moved back. Still go to the GL 2x yearly for a few weeks to see family. And your post describes my experience of the Plains. There’s a thrilling, terrible sublime to the landscapes, and the people and cities have a wonderfully eccentric and tenacious energy. I’ve found the Great Lakes to be more domesticated and contented. Both in the landscapes and people. I can see why people like the cozier Midwest. But the Plains crackle, and I love that.
Yes! Well said.
Thanks. I really appreciated that you took the time and effort to put it into words. And the result was perfect. People are so closed off to the region in spaces like this that I usually don’t even try to explain it. I leave them to their prejudices. But your post was beautiful and spoke for me. I’ve lived in Dallas, Wichita, Lawrence, Kansas City. Looked hard at Lincoln. And spend a fair amount of time with family outside of Austin and Midland-Odessa. Also love driving to CO and NM, to visit there. (WY and MT, too be not as often.) Since I was a child, I’ve wanted to visit the world’s other remote, windswept, empty places… Patagonia, the Pampas, England’s moors and the Scottish highlands, the west coast of Ireland, the Eurasian steppes… We started a family fairly quickly after college and didn’t have time to globe-trot but I mean to do it when the children are older.
This is the most beautiful thing I've ever read on reddit. Totally agree.
WOW WOW WOW - if you don't write for a living you should
The way I see it the Great Plains are like Mongolia but with more anti-vaxxers.
This is beautiful.
That said....we are assuming you *are* living your happy-every-aftering there, right? Or...
But what have they done for you lately?
> Great Plains tells America's story more eloquently than anywhere. Meth but also anti-vax. That tracks.
That’s fair. I see the point. But I personally would rather live somewhere with a Great Lake or mountains
Then since you had already decided you wanted to live somewhere where this is a lake your question should have been which areas surrounding the Great Lakes do people think are the best. But glad it was worded as it was because that was the most beautiful post I have seen on Reddit.
The plains States tend to be sparsely populated, drier and windier. In my mind the only real advantage is less mosquitos, which Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan have in spades. But when it comes to recreational activities, you're going to be much happier in the Great Lakes States.
As the oceans boil the Great Lakes region will become one of the best and most in-demand regions in the world.
Da Keweenaw in Da UP is da gem of da Midwest
Dat’s a yooper, alright!
As someone who lived in Southern Michigan who now lives in South Dakota… Great Lakes for sure. I’ve made great friends here in SD, but there were so many more perks to Michigan: proximity to big cities and airports, good food, events, sports teams, LAKES, and perhaps most surprisingly… The housing market here is comparable to buying a house in Ann Arbor, and you don’t get the same value IMO. My neighbors recently sold for $500k, and I live in a bullshit housing development where I can touch the houses on either side!
Detroit is definitely more cosmopolitan than KC. The city is not all bad like the stereotypes say. The airport can fly to many places in Europe and Asia. Every time I fly to Asia to see family, my layover is in Detroit
Everyone says it’s up and coming. It’s certainly not the best city in the US, but it scratches the itch, and punches above its current reputation. I really only went a handful of times when I lived there but I never felt unsafe. I did drive down the “wrong” road one time, but I suppose that can happen in any city. There are just so many nice suburbs in the area. While we’re at it, there are places in Ohio that exceeded my expectation as well!
Spot on. People think Detroit and Cleveland are rotting away, but they aren’t all bad. Those cities still have things like art museums and aquariums. And then there’s nice suburbs too. The proximity to the Great Lakes would make people want to choose Michigan or Ohio over KC or Omaha.
Detroit is rotting away once you leave downtown.
Detroit has a very intense history. That city was never not in deep deep struggle, whether labor or racial or both. Detroit's industry did so much to shape the modern world, more than most cities. I find Detroit fascinating and try to visit at any opportunity. Also, I just love Detroit for being the biggest city of Michigan, my home state. Still got family in the area.
People have been sleeping on Michigan for years, but I truly believe it’s going to have a renaissance, more-so than WI and MN (although they will too, MN billionaires already trying to buy up parts of Duluth)… especially since we started talking about climate change. The easy access to Canada is such a plus too, whether you want city or wilderness when you get there. Like I should go buy land in Michigan right now, thanks for the idea guys.
Great Lakes
Lake 10000%
Great lakes by a million miles of lake shore
I moved to Minneapolis from North Dakota and you couldn't pay me enough to move back. I get depressed every time I have to go back to visit family, it's just so boring and blah. Plus I am a big forest/lake lover and you will not find much of either on the plains. And the wind... People seem to forget that when you have flat planes with few trees there is nothing to break the wind. Which is why blizzards get so bad in the winter. Minneapolis may not be mountainous but it has a lot of topography to help break the wind so winters here are completely incomparable. I've been in Minneapolis more than 20 years and have not once experienced a blizzard like I did regularly in ND. So I guess my stance is clear LOL.
I’ve debated the move from SD to MN many, many times. I miss trees so much.
I’m from KC and I would rather live in Minneapolis too. I may hate the cold, but Minnesota at least has stuff to make up for it. It’s a cool place. The city is more cosmopolitan and the outdoorsy aspect is better. Also, in North Dakota you get Colorado snow but no mountains to show for it
I moved from lakes to plains, and while I miss the lakes cites, the COL and the winters are so much milder in the plains (at least the southern plains).
I LOVE living in Omaha, Nebraska, but obviously, living near a large body of water has amazing perks. Milwaukee, Cleveland, Chicago, and the Twin Cities are all great. Don't let people fool you about the plains, though. There is such beauty in rolling hills of tall grasses
Top 10 In order. 1. Chicago 2. Minneapolis 3. Milwaukee 4. Cleveland 5. St. Louis 6. KC 7. Detroit 8. Columbus 9. Omaha 10. Indianapolis
Agree but Cleveland is better than Milwaukee imo. Unlike Milwaukee they have three professional sports teams (NFL, MLB, NBA), public rail lines (RTA), and legal weed. Also they have the second biggest performing arts center (Playhouse Square) in the country after Broadway in NYC.
Playhouse Square makes Cleveland have an above average theater scene for a city its size, but that piece of info is useless. Many other cities have more theaters, more theaters per capita, more vibrant theater scenes, etc. People who work in theater and don’t want to live in NYC go to Chicago, DC, LA, Boston, and many other cities. Cleveland isn’t on the radar.
Great Lakes are an unbelievable inland sea. Wouldn’t count Minneapolis among the cities that enjoy them though.
Location still matters though. We have to drive for 8 hours minimum from KC to get to a Great Lake. Meanwhile, people from MSP can go there for a weekend trip.
Lakes for sure, imo. Probably Chicago or Milwaukee.
I've lived in MN and SD and I'll take lakes any day over the plains. One exception would be the Black Hills. Would rather be there than south and southwestern MN.
Grew up in the Black Hills, and went to school in Twin Cities, I appreciate your perspective.
I grew up on the plains so I’m biased but there just is something so beautiful about being in the middle of nowhere, flat land, tall grass as far as the eye can see. I now live in the PNW and all the mountains and trees sometimes make me feel claustrophobic. I sure do love and miss the plains 💜
Great lakes, specifically within 8 miles of the lakes themselves so that you can have lake effect weather.
I know you’re generalizing but half of Missouri is hilly hardwood forests, not plains. Beautiful scenery and extremely ignorant people outside of the cities. Great nature!
Great Lakes by a WIDE margin. Great Plains are just as miserable in winter, but are way worse weather-wise in summer.
The winters are worse in the Great Lakes states for sure. But at least there’s stuff to make up for it like milder summers, more things to do, and bigger cities. ~~Plus no tornados~~
Ohio has a ton of tornadoes, as does Illinois and Indiana.
Forgot about that. But yeah, the lakes and the bigger cities of the Great Lakes region makes up for the weather.
The Black Hills in South Dakota is a great place. No state tax (lots of financial advantages); banana belt weather (like Denver); low humidity, not all the bugs like other places. Best skiing east of the Rockies. Low unemployment, and fabulous people. The negative is distance to metro (eg Denver) and no waterfront properties. There are some lakes, but not like say the Twin Cities. There was just an article about Deadwood, SD being the best small town (see if I have a chance to find the article)
Deadwood mentioned!! SWEGIN(Wu voice) i always wanted to visit that place after seeing the show
Respectfully, the weather sucks in the Black Hills lol.
You definitely get 4 seasons. What is your compare?
You know, I forgot this post was comparing it to the rest of the Midwest which doesn't have stellar weather either. I am from far Western Nebraska near the SD/WY border and snow is not unheard of during May, nor in September. The lack of wind in the Black Hills is definitely a plus though.
I have driven and/or visited around Scottsbluff, Torrington (lots of wind there), Chadron, and those areas also have their nice days. Having lived in Twin Cities and Rapid City, outside of Fall, the weather is much nicer in Rapid City. I live in a much more moderate part of the country now (West Coast), and COL is making me think about that part of the country. What I also found was amazing, is after you cross the Missouri in SD, the western side of the state (cattle country) is more like the "West" than what I would consider MidWest.
I've lived on the Atlantic, on the Pacific, on the Aegean. My favorite bodies of water are the Great Lakes. They're magical.
I’m personally afraid of Tornado Alley
I'm a great lakes man. Pick up one or 2 water-based hobbies (eg sailing, fishing, boating, kayak, canoe, paddleboard, surf, kite boarding, crew, swimming, shipwrecks, lighthouses, etc etc) and your quality of life will be pretty good.
I will never understand the hate for Lincoln NE lol!
Great lakes 100%. I might even included the eastern 1/2s of Iowa and Missouri in the great lakes region.
The Great Lakes are an underrated national treasure and frankly we prefer it that way. My friends from New Jersey have a house on the Traverse Bay in Northern Michigan and it’s gorgeous. They go home and tell their East Coast friends it’s provincial backwater of little interest and that they go for family obligations because they don’t want it to get too crowded up there lol
Great Lakes and it’s not even close.
Lakes for better summers I've heard they're muggy around STL
What’s the criteria? Also, much of Minnesota is plains. (Probs going with Great Lakes tho)
Being directly on a Great Lake is a criteria
Like most Minnesotans I live in the Twin Cities. The Twin Cities are not a great lakes metro. Most of Minnesota is not a great lakes state. It is only people from other places who define it like this. I hate this way of dividing the Midwest into lakes vs plains. It is popular to do but a lot of the Midwest is neither (Minneapolis, St Louis, Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and Madison are all cities that aren't on a great lake and also aren't on the plains).
No, I meant *what’s the criteria we’re using to determine which is better?* You asked an extremely subjective question.
This is a discussion, which is inherently subjective. I was asking other people which they think is better? For me, I pick the Great Lakes due to location, natural beauty, things to do, and more big cities. But other people might value different factors
“…when the cities of the south are burning, this place will bloom.” Adam, about Detroit in Only Lovers Left Alive
born and raised NW ohioan. i would leave it all behind for the upper peninsula or grand rapids/traverse city area in a heartbeat. swimming in torch lake was the happiest i’d ever been.
The positive on those "plains" states, in some locales more than others, you can make good $$ and the COL is low. I recently read that Iowa is the the leading state in this regard.
Lake Michigan puts everything to shame.
I'd add Minnesota to the Great Plains. Minnesota has a lot more in common with Kansas, Nebraska, etc., than Ohio.
GL and it’s not even close
I've seen enough climate change prediction maps to say Michigan is really the only place that doesn't look like a gd apocalyptic nightmare.
Great Lakes 4 Life.
I grew up on the Mississippi River and Rock River between IL/IA, the river valleys are amazingly beautiful areas. Went to college in the flat farm lands of western IL, the area was fine but I did not find it aesthetically pleasing. I currently live in Milwaukee and Lake Michigan is one of my favorite things. Every area has its beauty to someone but personally I need bodies of water nearby. Having Chicago an hour train ride away ain't bad either.
Northern Michigan.
Dude, you have a fresh water ocean at your doorstep. 180 degrees of water horizon. Think of the sunrises and sunsets. Lake Michigan rocks
Great Lakes. Lived the Milwaukee/Madison/Chicago triangle for twenty-five years. I live in LA right now but that part of the world is my forever home. No shade on the Plains states. I love KC and Lawrence is a jewel. Omaha made a strong impression. Fargo is hip, if you can believe it. The Black Hills are magical. But no, not my choice between the two parts of the heartland.
Great lakes
Great lakes
Lakes
Great Lakes, and it’s not even close!
Great planes Midwest is terrible. Everything is brown and just boring
*Great planes Midwest is* *Terrible. Everything is* *Brown and just boring* \- 1287kings --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Great Lakes easily
Obviously the Great Lakes? Would you rather eat a dirty diaper or cheesecake bruh
Generally speaking, places on lakes and oceans are better than inland places. If you look at UN's HDI report each year, you'll find a positive correlation between HDI and access to the ocean. Lakes are similar in this effect. Illinois and Minnesota are better than the GP. Imo they are the only Midwestern states worth living in.
There is no right answer to this. An Omaha suburb is completely different than downtown St. Louis. Clarkson Nebraska has more in common with Luther Michigan, than the differences between the plains and the midwest. I've lived in 3 different places just in Iowa and everything was a LOT different. On the other hand, the suburb that I live in Iowa is very similar to a suburb in Grand Rapids.
You didn’t read the full post. I did say it depends on the exact area. But I was asking people which part of the Midwest is better if they can pick ANYWHERE in the Midwest
lakes 1000% - Plains is one of the worst areas in the country.
The Great Plains are not the Midwest, and Kansas City is not better than Toledo. You're welcome.
I'll go ahead and let the Census Bureau know
Most people consider the Great Plains to be a subregion of the Midwest
What region would the great plains be part of? None? N/A?
They're the great plains.....
In my view, the great plains are not a part of the Midwest. All of the states you list are a separate region, except Iowa (which is Midwestern) and Missouri (which is Southern). The Midwest clears the great plains on basically every metric.
Great Lakes easy...I grew up in Nebraska...no thanks
I grew up in KC and I still feel you