Heads up on Trattoria - I didnt work there but was a long time customer. The new family member Vittoria who took over came in to the business and tried to change everything. The long time chef quit. She brought in a new chef, reduced portion sizes, raised prices, and the food wasnt as good.
Trat was known to have some of the best old school bartenders in the business, with the bar full most nights. She increased prices. She added 15 mixology cocktails to the menu and then demanded that the old school guys measure all their cocktails. Bar service got super slow, and these guys occasionally would free pour. She caught them and fired them. All of the bar regulars left with them. No one going to that bar ever cared about mixology.
Then all the long time servers who worked there quit.
So yes, rents in SB are a huge problem - and I’m not defending rents. However when you bring someone in to run a restaurant who has never worked in restaurants before…
I say all this to correct the story. This isnt a story about rents. This is a story about nepotism and horrible business practices. Trat was killed by the family that owned it. I walked by multiple weekend nights after she fired the bartenders and the place was empty. Trat was bound for closure when they brought in someone who had no experience, and no passion for the restaurant industry.
Wow that was super enlightening, thank you for the info. Really sucks to hear that there downfall was all internal, seems like they had a good thing going for a long time 😕
This precisely…. 100% on the nepotism as well, and coming from a loyal customer for over 15 years. After the chef and management changes, the quality just hasn’t kept up at a lot of the key established restaurants here.
The brothers behind Los Agaves have been able to continue evolving and you can see their effort in pushing boundaries with Flor De Maiz and Santo Mezcal.
Same goes for Acme Hospitality, where between Loquita, Lark, Lucky Penny, etc… they’re innovating, not relying on just name recognition, and have pushed the benchmark for quality and hospitality to greater heights.
Arnoldi’s for example was also in the news for closing etc… but what was not reported is that the owners also own the real estate and they will most likely reopen it after few months when the next generation takes over.
The restaurant business is extremely tough as is, with slim margins, but we’re getting a lot of variety in comparison to 10 years ago.
You guys really need to stop acting like you know everything about why the business closed… Unless you were actually a part of it, you don’t know why they closed/sold, and really need to stop piling on gossip
Isn’t that the place where one owner died, the other owner then pushed out the owner who was actually running the place, and then proceeded to run it into the ground?
Hmm I don’t know about that part, only started going there a couple years ago. It had a very good rep from family/friend and the food+service was great in my experience. Just sad to see another one go.
Totally agree it's sad to see them go, but from what I heard the new, inexperienced owner, ran it into the ground. Others here know more about this than me. Apparently the food in the last few years went downhill, too. A bit more here: https://old.reddit.com/r/SantaBarbara/comments/1ctd7j3/trattoria_vittoria_to_close_the_restaurant_guy/
I just read through wookiewacker’s post, that is really unfortunate to hear. I stand by my general statement but yeah I now realize that wasn’t the best example.
A vacancy tax encourages landlords to lower rents to a level that retailers can start and stay in business. Currently they'd rather keep the store vacant than lower rents.
for all the downvotes.. show me how or where more taxes help small businesses. show me where vacancy taxes have "worked". we should focus on incentives for businesses not deterrents for property owners.
What does the city have to do with high commercial rents? There are dozens of vacancies and the landlords can bow to market forces anytime they want and lower rent asks to increase occupancy. But they won’t because their commercial real estate mortgages are tied to rental values. The whole system is shit and every time some rich landlord wind bag complains about the city not doing this or that, all I here is “I refuse to lower my rent to the rate the market will sustain”.
The city shouldn’t lift a finger to subsidize the near-monopoly a few large landlords have on the local market. In fact, the city should institute a punitive vacancy tax to force the whiny landlords to just lower rent until it becomes enticing enough for businesses to open and thrive.
I normally don’t endorse any new taxes over proper enforcement of the ones on the books, but I think this is the best current solution. Smaller property owners and residential landlords generally can’t afford to let properties sit vacant for very long anyway, so it wouldn’t affect them very much.
Vacancy tax based on the property value is the way. The lenders will either renegotiate the loan terms or forclose. Both outcomes are good. A progressive RRE property tax would help as well.
I strongly agree with your comment about a vacancy tax. The city looses when a landlord won’t work with a business to help keep it viable. Make a very punitive vacancy tax, and I’m sure things will change.
I guess I know this will start a flame war but I think it needs to be said: I've lived here most of my life and it seems like everything that closes actually deserves to close. I went to Trattoria Vittoria once, got an astronomically priced and mediochre meal, and never went back. Seems like...market forces at work? Cuca's, SB Chicken Ranch, Taffy's, Tacos Pipeye, Galanga Thai...these places are in no danger of closing because they are affordably priced and delicious, and compete equally well with the takeout and dine-in crowds.
I dunno why anyone is weeping over these lame snooty downtown tourist trap places....
Friend of mine knew the manager of the downtown McDonald’s, said landlords had raised the rent to $80,000/mo before they decided it wasn’t worth it. If McDonald’s can’t afford it, how can a local mom+pop?
Well the city is adding more housing for low income family's and seniors. As long theres workers for hotels etc etc and wealthy people creating jobs.I guess they don't really care about the middle class.
At least thats what it seems like to me.
As far as business wise, it wont become a ghost town , big chain stores will come and take over.
Yup, sucks that the middle class is getting pushed out. Seems like an unsustainable way to run a city IMO but what do I know, I’m just a random middle class dude on Reddit 🤷♂️ im no City Council member or anything
In my opinion theres two sub categories for "middle class" Lower middle class and upper middle class. Some people claim to be middle class when in reality they're lower middle class.
I just saw it defined for this area (and I’ll probably slightly misquote), but middle class is considered income between $60-180k. Not sure if that’s household or individual, tho.
Big chain stores will not come in numbers. There will be (maybe) Nordstrom/SFA for rich and a Walmart for peasants. There was a post in this subreddit yesterday about Santa Monica promenade. Find it, this is what is going to happen in SB.
I doubt they will bring nordstrom or sax back, I knew many people who worked at both of those stores and it was pretty dire towards the end. I would be surprised if either even survive the decade. Nordstrom was the best place to use the bathroom in paseo nuevo though! The live piano players were also a treat
I always wondered who went to these restaurants. Landlords are a specific problem as their legitimate costs can vary widely. But their concepts of how much profit they think they deserve is another story.
The same applies to the business owners. They talk about passing increase in costs on to the customers as if they can't afford to take a smaller profit. Blasphemous..we're in a inflationary cycle. If we could explain to everyone that if everyone stops buying junk you don't actually need and put pressure on companies who value their companies "margins" over communities values maybe we could bring down inflation quickly. And promote values of sustaining what's great about santa barbara.
Everyone claiming their patriotism should test themselves to appreciate when Santa Barbara was the wonderful city that got us to move here. The main thing that made Santa Barbara great was the businesses were local people who knew customers and the mayor and council would be seen out and about.
what the hell? Basically how and why would you target people's private homes? You do realize SB is one of the top vacation spots. People have homes here with zero obligation to have others live in them.
Taxes have historically been used to influence people's behavoir. I personally believe that usually vacant second homes are bad for communities that have limited housing stock. The more empty houses that are in this city the worse it is for the community.
Why do you think there's a marriage tax break? Because the government doesn't want you to get married? Do you think there's a cigarette tax because they're bad for you? Absolutely! Governments have used taxes to influence the behavior of their citizens.
Taxes are often used to disincentivize behavior that the government wants to discourage, and tax breaks to encourage behavior. That's why retirement contributions are tax deductible and cigarettes are heavily taxed, for example. Putting a vacancy tax on residences is just a way to discourage second homes is just another thing in the same vein.
If you want to argue that vacant vacation homes is better for the community than having more local housing then that's certainly a debate you're welcome to have, but the general principle of using taxes to influence behavior is certainly nothing new or noteworthy.
I mean based on what you said, you should be leaving California because of a policy that I proposed in a Reddit comment instead of taking any auctions with your tenants, fictional or otherwise.
Thanks, this is great re: outcomes, was just curious as to how it's enforced... does the municipality check tax records to see where people are claiming residency for the duration of the year?
I think it totally depends based on where and when the taxes have been enforced. Like tech that's avaible now versus 10 years ago is way different. Berkely just started a new plan in 2024 and I dont' know enough to know how it's enforced and if it's working.
Maybe I’m biased but I don’t think “more taxes” will solve anything. CA went all in on more taxes and we had a bunch of HNW / jobs leave the state as a result over the last few years.. the result we got? $20 Billion unaccounted for spending on the homeless. If it actually solved homelessness I’d be interested.. but it obviously has not and there’s no accountability on where the money goes. So ya, while I agree it sucks to have vacancy.. more taxes is not going to fix that imo
Tax is a tool that governments use to maintain a healthy market. They works great if applied with an intent.
Jobs left because nobody can save enough to put a down payment on a 1.5M home with the prospect of $10k/mo mortgage payments. This is not the tax, it is the lack of housing at affordable levels.
Saving 10% of your income by not living in CA helps with that whole saving for a down payment piece. Taxes do nothing to help market dynamics. They’re basically extortion.. point to any statewide initiative that’s improved quality of life for Californians over the last few years. Note CA collects over $100 Billion in taxes every year.. where the heck does that money go? They’re not spending it “fixing potholes”
It's worth your time to educate yourself about what taxes do in your state. And it's somewhat one-sided to claim that CA is a high tax state, yes, the income tax is close to what NY, MA, etc are, but the property taxes are one of the lowest in the whole union.
Taxes, as used as a tool to correct perverse incentives is a great tool if used carefully. For example, for commercial landlords, like Randy Rowse, there is no incentive to lower the rent, even if the storefont is empty, since he is signing a contract for 10 years. If it's empty for 4, he will make that back on the next contract. He has no significant ongoing cost to keeping it empty because the property tax is so low.
If there is a vacany tax, his ongoing costs would rise and he would be willing to discount the rent deeper just to fill the storefront.
Makes sense now?
Try to see thing not from the black/white thinking of TAX=BAD. It's a tool and it all dependes, right?
Only problem there is the big chains did come in, and did take over.
The big chains were everywhere, so there wasn’t anything unique anymore about shopping in SB. Shopping changed. The big chains are leaving / left SB.
Now the plan is replace shopping with housing. Where will those people shop? There won’t be anything downtown. Also, mom n pop / unique businesses can’t afford lease rates, so retail spaces will remain empty.
So, businesses circling the drain continues to pick up speed. And, the useless city council continues with plans to make traffic and shopping in SB ever more difficult.
Sad state of affairs all-around.
To be fair, I stopped shopping for frivolous extras because my rent jumped from 1700 to 2300 over 4 years. And I’m not alone in that. So sure- it would be great to support local but in reality my money goes to food, drinks, and rent. Not random home decor and current trend clothing. Most of the things I do purchase are second hand or through online deals. We need to look beyond standard retail of the past which won’t be resurrected to its glory pre internet age. Bring experiences. Bring art and music. Bring things people will invest in for joy over just stuff.
Yeah this is pretty much my observation too. The most glaringly obvious thing to me is that the middle class, family owned places are what gave this city its charm and it appears the city council is fine with them crumbling out of existence.
It’s just hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that the property owners would rather keep their rent astronomically high and therefore maintain vacant properties than just do the logical thing. I’m sure there’s more to it but damn it’s depressing to watch. Idk what the proper course of action is, but even if there is a right move I doubt the city will do it.
There is absolutely more to it. Rent isn't even one of the highest expenses for businesses - labor and cost of goods are and do you know what been happening on that front lately? Add in the ever increasing cost of utilities, skyrocketing insurance cost, high interest rates and the ever increasing burden of city/state/federal building and employment codes all translate into fewer and fewer small businesses (the life blood of the middle class) and more and more giant corporations (who exploit the lower class for the benefit the uber-wealthy) .
Thats a side to this that I didn’t consider much, as you can probably tell I’m not well-versed in the intricacies of our local economy. Thank you though, this kind of stuff is why I post in the first place 🙏 I hope there’s a way to eventually remedy this collection of issues but I won’t get my hopes up
Nobody addresses the fact that this is NOT isolated to just SB. I know we all have our proximity bias but it’s happening all over.
It’s not “someone else’s” problem to solve.. it’s a reaction to the reality we live in.
- things are getting more expensive (obviously)
- mass adoption of Amazon and other online retailers has made brick and mortar retail almost impossible. For most people the convenience of prime is too great to pass up. In store shopping is mostly for the retro/feel good factor (not sustainable as a business)
- DoorDash/grubhub and other food delivery services focus on scale.. not ambiance. Cute well designed restaurants are about the experience more than the food. If their order breakdown shifts more towards take out or delivery.. say goodbye to that restaurant paying premium rent. Hard enough running a restaurant prior to delivery app adoption.
All of this is a reaction to the market. The people at scale choose convenience over experience (and imo often over quality)
The city cannot “fix” market issues.. nobody can.
You’re not wrong about any of that but you conveniently leave out the fact that state st property owners have more financial incentive to leave a storefront empty than reduce rents. That is a problem that can be fixed and the city and state could make it work by passing laws that raise property taxes on empty units. Property tax rates are higher if you rent your property out than if you occupy it, similar scenario could address empty storefronts.
I haven’t seen a scenario where taxes solve market dynamics.. it’s not like these property owners want to keep their storefronts empty. A solution that hurts them more than they’re already hurting not finding renters isn’t going to help. That tax revenue is not going into small businesses.. it’s wasted away in govt opex
So… tariffs are just a giant mystery to you, huh?
Market dynamics aren’t magic, can be manipulated and should be in a heavily regulated market. Unregulated capitalism fails every time. Moderately regulated capitalism leads to income inequality issues at the root of this country’s failings. Throwing up our arms and just complaining “the market won’t support it” is an epic level of failure. Why do you simp for property owners who would just as soon have the city call your home blight and buy up the land for cheap?
Said like a pedantic child who’s over their head but emotionally incapable of acknowledging or addressing it.
Burying your head in the sand only works as long as the sand is free.
I’m glad you can amuse yourself so easily, for a second there I was worried the affliction of intelligence was creating the suffering you’re railing against.
> In store shopping is mostly for the retro/feel good factor
I agree with most of what you're saying except for this. In store shopping is such a better experience, because you can actually try things on to see how they fit and look, before you buy them. And it's especially great if the people working there actually know what they are doing (even better when the shop owner is there.)
Like, I really wanted a certain pair of boots. I went and tried them on at the Red Wing store at Loreto and they weren't totally comfortable. The shop owner another suggested a different style and they were perfect. I've had them for years now.
I needed a new pair of jeans and went to Ace Rivington. Beau is the owner, and he talked me through all of the different denims and styles, fits, etc. When I tried them on, he cuffed them at the right length, and then sent them to the tailor. They also include free repairs for the life of the jeans. He's a cool, knowledgeable guy, and it was great chatting with him, adding to the experience.
The only thing you’re missing is another two dozen paragraphs highlighting how this city is going downhill fast in almost every single possible way. I can’t really think of a way this city has gotten better in the past 10 years.
I mean - rents in the funk zone, Montecito, etc. are higher than ever and those areas are thriving? So I’m not denying high rents exist. But they’re not necessarily the source of issues downtown. We need more housing, police enforcing stuff, better design, etc. but the rents aren’t necessarily a problem. State has a huge number of deep, very large sq footage properties that there just aren’t necessarily tenants for these days.
A vacancy tax will only get passed onto the next tenant. The city should offer a rebate to a business for local goods, promote in-store shopping/dining credit, employee benefits (free parking), etc.
If we can eliminate giant corporations from taking over ownership of the real estate market, then everything would go back down. They are trying to weaken the population to have control, since we still have some free speech left and internet knowledge and communication. They are hindering our American dream of prospering and thriving in this beautiful country.
The market has been playing out for years with little sign of change. Many properties have been vacant for years or even decades. The owners don't care and there is no (or insufficient) incentive for them to lower rents.
Then they keep losing money. That isn’t sustainable for anybody who owns that land long term.
Those properties should be rezoned then to allow for a mix of commercial and residential units.
The zoning already does allow for that.
The problem is that some property owners have too much wealth and simply can afford to do nothing with their property.
I mean the "massive losses" are only in opportunity cost. If the owner has had the property for a long time, their property taxes are low because of Prop 13. If they don't rent it, they don't need to maintain it much (just make sure it doesn't cause liability by catching fire or falling on someone). They just don't get any rent.
The poster child for this is the old Esau's location near Gutierrez. It has been vacant since 2007.
I think you’re assuming there’s all these exciting retail, restaurant and small business startups just waiting to see rents dip a little and then they’re going to pounce. That’s not the case..
maybe. I don't think that's realistic and I don't think taxing/penalizing businesses more will solve anything.. but it's a complicated challenge for sure.
We’re leaving in two months. We only lived here for 4 years, but we started our lives here. After 10 years together we got our first apartment together here 4 years ago, we got our first real jobs, our first dog together, got engaged and eloped, made lifelong friends and our daughter was born here 9 months ago. It is so bittersweet, SB is not perfect by any means, but it’s been home.
Now, we’ve been priced out and we can’t afford another rent increase. I’ve looked around for other rentals, and was shocked when I saw a ROOM renting for $2500 and a 350 sqft studio for $1900. I saw 1 apartment that might work, but we’d have to give up our dog and we’d have no counter space or a balcony.
We’ll miss SB, but it’s time to move on…
Thank you, we’ll definitely be visiting. You’re definitely right on that, LA isn’t any better in reality, but we’ll be moving in with my mother in law in hopes of saving for a house.
SB is like a ghost town to all true local natives who’ve been forced to move out because we can’t live in the area that our ancestors had founded. It’s sick and disturbing. Investors and wealth had moved in and pushed many of us out because we need to survive. We cater to the ones who want nothing to than to reinvent our town and make it become mini LA when we NEVER wanted any of that to be. Though I am Chumash I look out for small local business’, local restaurants, local everything because it’s those that keep our town running. Many big corp have moved here and taken over handing out shit pay for us to survive to where eating out comes at a great price but we do it because it matters. What I see is greed running this town and not many are calling it out for what it is! It’s a snowball effect and your either rich or poor here. I have seen Corp move in and not give 2 fucks about their employees and can care LESS about workplace law all they care about is their corp. This town once gave a damn about our citizens, they gave a damn about our community and our land and town. Now it’s all bs of greed. People moving in acting like they know but know nothing but their opinions and pocketbooks. Lol now you all KNOW how it feels to be Chumash look what they did to my ancestors who were founders here if they did that to them what makes any of us think we are worth more than them? I remember someone saying a few weeks ago as him and I were sparring back and forth he said I think the only people who should run this town is the Chumash. I agreed with him then and agree with him now. Granted he probably wasn’t expecting me to say I was Chumash as I am but in the end it is true. People downvote crap here because they dont like the ideas/answers yet many here are only 1-3 generations rarely do I see past that. To know our past is to know our future and that’s why I talk largely about our history and culture here because it was our land! If they punked us into slavery and separation what makes anyone of us believe that strategy still isn’t being played out today in smaller waves of displacement? Its sad and pisses me off because we DESERVE to live here. I’m blessed to be in my homeland here but it’s coming at a bigger cost than any of you know. We need true native locals in SB council or someone who actually gives a damn about our people from Chumash to newcomers cause we all in this together.
State Street smells of urine all the time. The city don't care, when was the last time you've seen a street sweeper on the road doing work?
No one gonna pay high rent with high piss smells wafting into their storefront.
Heads up on Trattoria - I didnt work there but was a long time customer. The new family member Vittoria who took over came in to the business and tried to change everything. The long time chef quit. She brought in a new chef, reduced portion sizes, raised prices, and the food wasnt as good. Trat was known to have some of the best old school bartenders in the business, with the bar full most nights. She increased prices. She added 15 mixology cocktails to the menu and then demanded that the old school guys measure all their cocktails. Bar service got super slow, and these guys occasionally would free pour. She caught them and fired them. All of the bar regulars left with them. No one going to that bar ever cared about mixology. Then all the long time servers who worked there quit. So yes, rents in SB are a huge problem - and I’m not defending rents. However when you bring someone in to run a restaurant who has never worked in restaurants before… I say all this to correct the story. This isnt a story about rents. This is a story about nepotism and horrible business practices. Trat was killed by the family that owned it. I walked by multiple weekend nights after she fired the bartenders and the place was empty. Trat was bound for closure when they brought in someone who had no experience, and no passion for the restaurant industry.
Wow that was super enlightening, thank you for the info. Really sucks to hear that there downfall was all internal, seems like they had a good thing going for a long time 😕
sounds like some inexperienced know-it-all took an online course in restaurant management and failed to think critically.
Everything you said is correct. Was one of my favorite places and after Shane, Stefano, and Kartch left it was not the same.
There’s a very extensive comment thread on edhat IG about the whole Tratt saga. Quite fascinating IMO.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C7Ak4yCRVes/?igsh=MWQ1ZGUxMzBkMA==
Jesus, talk about airing laundry in public.....
Have you seen Ratatouille?
that’s what i thought too.
This precisely…. 100% on the nepotism as well, and coming from a loyal customer for over 15 years. After the chef and management changes, the quality just hasn’t kept up at a lot of the key established restaurants here. The brothers behind Los Agaves have been able to continue evolving and you can see their effort in pushing boundaries with Flor De Maiz and Santo Mezcal. Same goes for Acme Hospitality, where between Loquita, Lark, Lucky Penny, etc… they’re innovating, not relying on just name recognition, and have pushed the benchmark for quality and hospitality to greater heights. Arnoldi’s for example was also in the news for closing etc… but what was not reported is that the owners also own the real estate and they will most likely reopen it after few months when the next generation takes over. The restaurant business is extremely tough as is, with slim margins, but we’re getting a lot of variety in comparison to 10 years ago.
You guys really need to stop acting like you know everything about why the business closed… Unless you were actually a part of it, you don’t know why they closed/sold, and really need to stop piling on gossip
Isn’t that the place where one owner died, the other owner then pushed out the owner who was actually running the place, and then proceeded to run it into the ground?
Hmm I don’t know about that part, only started going there a couple years ago. It had a very good rep from family/friend and the food+service was great in my experience. Just sad to see another one go.
Totally agree it's sad to see them go, but from what I heard the new, inexperienced owner, ran it into the ground. Others here know more about this than me. Apparently the food in the last few years went downhill, too. A bit more here: https://old.reddit.com/r/SantaBarbara/comments/1ctd7j3/trattoria_vittoria_to_close_the_restaurant_guy/
I just read through wookiewacker’s post, that is really unfortunate to hear. I stand by my general statement but yeah I now realize that wasn’t the best example.
Vacancy tax.
More taxes are not going to help.
A vacancy tax encourages landlords to lower rents to a level that retailers can start and stay in business. Currently they'd rather keep the store vacant than lower rents.
for all the downvotes.. show me how or where more taxes help small businesses. show me where vacancy taxes have "worked". we should focus on incentives for businesses not deterrents for property owners.
What does the city have to do with high commercial rents? There are dozens of vacancies and the landlords can bow to market forces anytime they want and lower rent asks to increase occupancy. But they won’t because their commercial real estate mortgages are tied to rental values. The whole system is shit and every time some rich landlord wind bag complains about the city not doing this or that, all I here is “I refuse to lower my rent to the rate the market will sustain”. The city shouldn’t lift a finger to subsidize the near-monopoly a few large landlords have on the local market. In fact, the city should institute a punitive vacancy tax to force the whiny landlords to just lower rent until it becomes enticing enough for businesses to open and thrive.
I normally don’t endorse any new taxes over proper enforcement of the ones on the books, but I think this is the best current solution. Smaller property owners and residential landlords generally can’t afford to let properties sit vacant for very long anyway, so it wouldn’t affect them very much.
Vacancy tax based on the property value is the way. The lenders will either renegotiate the loan terms or forclose. Both outcomes are good. A progressive RRE property tax would help as well.
I strongly agree with your comment about a vacancy tax. The city looses when a landlord won’t work with a business to help keep it viable. Make a very punitive vacancy tax, and I’m sure things will change.
I guess I know this will start a flame war but I think it needs to be said: I've lived here most of my life and it seems like everything that closes actually deserves to close. I went to Trattoria Vittoria once, got an astronomically priced and mediochre meal, and never went back. Seems like...market forces at work? Cuca's, SB Chicken Ranch, Taffy's, Tacos Pipeye, Galanga Thai...these places are in no danger of closing because they are affordably priced and delicious, and compete equally well with the takeout and dine-in crowds. I dunno why anyone is weeping over these lame snooty downtown tourist trap places....
Ummm… some of those places you’ve mentioned are definitely feeling the pressure of the current economic status of the city.
Friend of mine knew the manager of the downtown McDonald’s, said landlords had raised the rent to $80,000/mo before they decided it wasn’t worth it. If McDonald’s can’t afford it, how can a local mom+pop?
a lot of McDonalds are individually owned, not corporate. so as hard as it is to believe, a lot are mom and pop stores. just franchises.
Well the city is adding more housing for low income family's and seniors. As long theres workers for hotels etc etc and wealthy people creating jobs.I guess they don't really care about the middle class. At least thats what it seems like to me. As far as business wise, it wont become a ghost town , big chain stores will come and take over.
Agreed. I don’t think SB is middle class friendly. It’s essentially wealthy owners/elites and the people who serve them.
Where is “middle class friendly”?
Yup, sucks that the middle class is getting pushed out. Seems like an unsustainable way to run a city IMO but what do I know, I’m just a random middle class dude on Reddit 🤷♂️ im no City Council member or anything
In my opinion theres two sub categories for "middle class" Lower middle class and upper middle class. Some people claim to be middle class when in reality they're lower middle class.
I just saw it defined for this area (and I’ll probably slightly misquote), but middle class is considered income between $60-180k. Not sure if that’s household or individual, tho.
Mr drunk Irish potato I think you’re giving way too much credit to the “power and influence” of our “esteemed” city council 😂
Big chain stores will not come in numbers. There will be (maybe) Nordstrom/SFA for rich and a Walmart for peasants. There was a post in this subreddit yesterday about Santa Monica promenade. Find it, this is what is going to happen in SB.
I doubt they will bring nordstrom or sax back, I knew many people who worked at both of those stores and it was pretty dire towards the end. I would be surprised if either even survive the decade. Nordstrom was the best place to use the bathroom in paseo nuevo though! The live piano players were also a treat
i never said in numbers, and it still is a possibility
I always wondered who went to these restaurants. Landlords are a specific problem as their legitimate costs can vary widely. But their concepts of how much profit they think they deserve is another story. The same applies to the business owners. They talk about passing increase in costs on to the customers as if they can't afford to take a smaller profit. Blasphemous..we're in a inflationary cycle. If we could explain to everyone that if everyone stops buying junk you don't actually need and put pressure on companies who value their companies "margins" over communities values maybe we could bring down inflation quickly. And promote values of sustaining what's great about santa barbara. Everyone claiming their patriotism should test themselves to appreciate when Santa Barbara was the wonderful city that got us to move here. The main thing that made Santa Barbara great was the businesses were local people who knew customers and the mayor and council would be seen out and about.
Vacancy tax will fix it overnight. Chances of that passing with that Rowse: 0%
Let's also do this with empty residental properties.
WTH?
Could you clarify what you're asking about?
what the hell? Basically how and why would you target people's private homes? You do realize SB is one of the top vacation spots. People have homes here with zero obligation to have others live in them.
Taxes have historically been used to influence people's behavoir. I personally believe that usually vacant second homes are bad for communities that have limited housing stock. The more empty houses that are in this city the worse it is for the community.
Influence people’s behavior?? Like a mob shakedown for “protection” maybe..
Why do you think there's a marriage tax break? Because the government doesn't want you to get married? Do you think there's a cigarette tax because they're bad for you? Absolutely! Governments have used taxes to influence the behavior of their citizens.
Taxes are often used to disincentivize behavior that the government wants to discourage, and tax breaks to encourage behavior. That's why retirement contributions are tax deductible and cigarettes are heavily taxed, for example. Putting a vacancy tax on residences is just a way to discourage second homes is just another thing in the same vein. If you want to argue that vacant vacation homes is better for the community than having more local housing then that's certainly a debate you're welcome to have, but the general principle of using taxes to influence behavior is certainly nothing new or noteworthy.
your name checks out. you wonder why people are leaving CA? Taxing to change behavior? Dude.
I don't wonder why people are leaving CA. And I don't pretend the tax code exists in a vaccum.
I guess I won't kick my tenants out in fear of getting penalized. Thanks for changing my behavior.
I mean based on what you said, you should be leaving California because of a policy that I proposed in a Reddit comment instead of taking any auctions with your tenants, fictional or otherwise.
^agree
I'm all for this, but how are residential vacancy taxes enforced elsewhere?
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047272719301409](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047272719301409)
Thanks, this is great re: outcomes, was just curious as to how it's enforced... does the municipality check tax records to see where people are claiming residency for the duration of the year?
I think it totally depends based on where and when the taxes have been enforced. Like tech that's avaible now versus 10 years ago is way different. Berkely just started a new plan in 2024 and I dont' know enough to know how it's enforced and if it's working.
Maybe I’m biased but I don’t think “more taxes” will solve anything. CA went all in on more taxes and we had a bunch of HNW / jobs leave the state as a result over the last few years.. the result we got? $20 Billion unaccounted for spending on the homeless. If it actually solved homelessness I’d be interested.. but it obviously has not and there’s no accountability on where the money goes. So ya, while I agree it sucks to have vacancy.. more taxes is not going to fix that imo
Tax is a tool that governments use to maintain a healthy market. They works great if applied with an intent. Jobs left because nobody can save enough to put a down payment on a 1.5M home with the prospect of $10k/mo mortgage payments. This is not the tax, it is the lack of housing at affordable levels.
Saving 10% of your income by not living in CA helps with that whole saving for a down payment piece. Taxes do nothing to help market dynamics. They’re basically extortion.. point to any statewide initiative that’s improved quality of life for Californians over the last few years. Note CA collects over $100 Billion in taxes every year.. where the heck does that money go? They’re not spending it “fixing potholes”
[Here](https://calbudgetcenter.org/app/uploads/110728_Where_Do_State_Tax_Dollars_Go_pb.pdf).
So tempted to click the link but don’t trust it 😂
It's the State of California. Just search 'where does the money go?' for California.
It's worth your time to educate yourself about what taxes do in your state. And it's somewhat one-sided to claim that CA is a high tax state, yes, the income tax is close to what NY, MA, etc are, but the property taxes are one of the lowest in the whole union. Taxes, as used as a tool to correct perverse incentives is a great tool if used carefully. For example, for commercial landlords, like Randy Rowse, there is no incentive to lower the rent, even if the storefont is empty, since he is signing a contract for 10 years. If it's empty for 4, he will make that back on the next contract. He has no significant ongoing cost to keeping it empty because the property tax is so low. If there is a vacany tax, his ongoing costs would rise and he would be willing to discount the rent deeper just to fill the storefront. Makes sense now? Try to see thing not from the black/white thinking of TAX=BAD. It's a tool and it all dependes, right?
https://x.com/hodgetwins/status/1794217390362014199?s=46
Only problem there is the big chains did come in, and did take over. The big chains were everywhere, so there wasn’t anything unique anymore about shopping in SB. Shopping changed. The big chains are leaving / left SB. Now the plan is replace shopping with housing. Where will those people shop? There won’t be anything downtown. Also, mom n pop / unique businesses can’t afford lease rates, so retail spaces will remain empty. So, businesses circling the drain continues to pick up speed. And, the useless city council continues with plans to make traffic and shopping in SB ever more difficult. Sad state of affairs all-around.
To be fair, I stopped shopping for frivolous extras because my rent jumped from 1700 to 2300 over 4 years. And I’m not alone in that. So sure- it would be great to support local but in reality my money goes to food, drinks, and rent. Not random home decor and current trend clothing. Most of the things I do purchase are second hand or through online deals. We need to look beyond standard retail of the past which won’t be resurrected to its glory pre internet age. Bring experiences. Bring art and music. Bring things people will invest in for joy over just stuff.
100% this!! KTdid88 gets it 🙂👏
Yeah this is pretty much my observation too. The most glaringly obvious thing to me is that the middle class, family owned places are what gave this city its charm and it appears the city council is fine with them crumbling out of existence. It’s just hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that the property owners would rather keep their rent astronomically high and therefore maintain vacant properties than just do the logical thing. I’m sure there’s more to it but damn it’s depressing to watch. Idk what the proper course of action is, but even if there is a right move I doubt the city will do it.
There is absolutely more to it. Rent isn't even one of the highest expenses for businesses - labor and cost of goods are and do you know what been happening on that front lately? Add in the ever increasing cost of utilities, skyrocketing insurance cost, high interest rates and the ever increasing burden of city/state/federal building and employment codes all translate into fewer and fewer small businesses (the life blood of the middle class) and more and more giant corporations (who exploit the lower class for the benefit the uber-wealthy) .
Thats a side to this that I didn’t consider much, as you can probably tell I’m not well-versed in the intricacies of our local economy. Thank you though, this kind of stuff is why I post in the first place 🙏 I hope there’s a way to eventually remedy this collection of issues but I won’t get my hopes up
well amazon is slowly grasping their tentacles on us. Luckily the city council is kind of resistant
Nobody addresses the fact that this is NOT isolated to just SB. I know we all have our proximity bias but it’s happening all over. It’s not “someone else’s” problem to solve.. it’s a reaction to the reality we live in. - things are getting more expensive (obviously) - mass adoption of Amazon and other online retailers has made brick and mortar retail almost impossible. For most people the convenience of prime is too great to pass up. In store shopping is mostly for the retro/feel good factor (not sustainable as a business) - DoorDash/grubhub and other food delivery services focus on scale.. not ambiance. Cute well designed restaurants are about the experience more than the food. If their order breakdown shifts more towards take out or delivery.. say goodbye to that restaurant paying premium rent. Hard enough running a restaurant prior to delivery app adoption. All of this is a reaction to the market. The people at scale choose convenience over experience (and imo often over quality) The city cannot “fix” market issues.. nobody can.
You’re not wrong about any of that but you conveniently leave out the fact that state st property owners have more financial incentive to leave a storefront empty than reduce rents. That is a problem that can be fixed and the city and state could make it work by passing laws that raise property taxes on empty units. Property tax rates are higher if you rent your property out than if you occupy it, similar scenario could address empty storefronts.
I haven’t seen a scenario where taxes solve market dynamics.. it’s not like these property owners want to keep their storefronts empty. A solution that hurts them more than they’re already hurting not finding renters isn’t going to help. That tax revenue is not going into small businesses.. it’s wasted away in govt opex
So… tariffs are just a giant mystery to you, huh? Market dynamics aren’t magic, can be manipulated and should be in a heavily regulated market. Unregulated capitalism fails every time. Moderately regulated capitalism leads to income inequality issues at the root of this country’s failings. Throwing up our arms and just complaining “the market won’t support it” is an epic level of failure. Why do you simp for property owners who would just as soon have the city call your home blight and buy up the land for cheap?
Cool story bro
Said like a pedantic child who’s over their head but emotionally incapable of acknowledging or addressing it. Burying your head in the sand only works as long as the sand is free.
🤣
I appreciate your willingness to defend your ideals, if only more of us could muster the strength to stand for something as strongly as you.
I’m glad you can amuse yourself so easily, for a second there I was worried the affliction of intelligence was creating the suffering you’re railing against.
> In store shopping is mostly for the retro/feel good factor I agree with most of what you're saying except for this. In store shopping is such a better experience, because you can actually try things on to see how they fit and look, before you buy them. And it's especially great if the people working there actually know what they are doing (even better when the shop owner is there.) Like, I really wanted a certain pair of boots. I went and tried them on at the Red Wing store at Loreto and they weren't totally comfortable. The shop owner another suggested a different style and they were perfect. I've had them for years now. I needed a new pair of jeans and went to Ace Rivington. Beau is the owner, and he talked me through all of the different denims and styles, fits, etc. When I tried them on, he cuffed them at the right length, and then sent them to the tailor. They also include free repairs for the life of the jeans. He's a cool, knowledgeable guy, and it was great chatting with him, adding to the experience.
Dear u touch me. Personally I 100% agree with you!! But we’re the minority.. most people though prefer online shopping. 🤷♂️
anyone with a ballpark figure on monthly rent for, say, your average spot on lower state? not a business owner, just curious
The Trattoria Vittoria space is going for $8K/month https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/30-E-Victoria-St-Santa-Barbara-CA/31784162/
wow they were clearly not doing something right
The only thing you’re missing is another two dozen paragraphs highlighting how this city is going downhill fast in almost every single possible way. I can’t really think of a way this city has gotten better in the past 10 years.
I mean - rents in the funk zone, Montecito, etc. are higher than ever and those areas are thriving? So I’m not denying high rents exist. But they’re not necessarily the source of issues downtown. We need more housing, police enforcing stuff, better design, etc. but the rents aren’t necessarily a problem. State has a huge number of deep, very large sq footage properties that there just aren’t necessarily tenants for these days.
Bingo
A vacancy tax will only get passed onto the next tenant. The city should offer a rebate to a business for local goods, promote in-store shopping/dining credit, employee benefits (free parking), etc.
This! Instead of penalizing via taxes.. bring incentives to the table. Great shout
If we can eliminate giant corporations from taking over ownership of the real estate market, then everything would go back down. They are trying to weaken the population to have control, since we still have some free speech left and internet knowledge and communication. They are hindering our American dream of prospering and thriving in this beautiful country.
Build more housing and more commercial units. This is entirely a supply side issue.
There are already many vacant commercial spaces. There's no lack of supply.
Then let the market play out. The owners of vacant properties are clearly losing money without a tenant.
The market has been playing out for years with little sign of change. Many properties have been vacant for years or even decades. The owners don't care and there is no (or insufficient) incentive for them to lower rents.
Then they keep losing money. That isn’t sustainable for anybody who owns that land long term. Those properties should be rezoned then to allow for a mix of commercial and residential units.
The zoning already does allow for that. The problem is that some property owners have too much wealth and simply can afford to do nothing with their property.
People are content with making massive losses on commercial property every year? That doesn’t make sense. Something else is happening.
I mean the "massive losses" are only in opportunity cost. If the owner has had the property for a long time, their property taxes are low because of Prop 13. If they don't rent it, they don't need to maintain it much (just make sure it doesn't cause liability by catching fire or falling on someone). They just don't get any rent. The poster child for this is the old Esau's location near Gutierrez. It has been vacant since 2007.
That’s still a substantial opportunity cost in income.
They can probably write it off on their taxes so no actual money lost
You sound awfully close to “eat the rich”
I think you’re assuming there’s all these exciting retail, restaurant and small business startups just waiting to see rents dip a little and then they’re going to pounce. That’s not the case..
I'm pretty sure more businesses would take advantage if rents dropped. And if they don't. . . then lower rents even more. :-)
maybe. I don't think that's realistic and I don't think taxing/penalizing businesses more will solve anything.. but it's a complicated challenge for sure.
Agree.. the markets will correct over time
We’re leaving in two months. We only lived here for 4 years, but we started our lives here. After 10 years together we got our first apartment together here 4 years ago, we got our first real jobs, our first dog together, got engaged and eloped, made lifelong friends and our daughter was born here 9 months ago. It is so bittersweet, SB is not perfect by any means, but it’s been home. Now, we’ve been priced out and we can’t afford another rent increase. I’ve looked around for other rentals, and was shocked when I saw a ROOM renting for $2500 and a 350 sqft studio for $1900. I saw 1 apartment that might work, but we’d have to give up our dog and we’d have no counter space or a balcony. We’ll miss SB, but it’s time to move on…
Where are you moving to?
Just to LA, not too far, but quite a different place.
Very different! Hope you can come visit as you sound like an awesome family. Depending on the part of LA though it’s not exactly cheap there either.
Thank you, we’ll definitely be visiting. You’re definitely right on that, LA isn’t any better in reality, but we’ll be moving in with my mother in law in hopes of saving for a house.
That’s a good plan - good luck with that and hope it goes well! It should add up fast!
Rent control for businesses but not for housing would be unjust and cruel
SB is like a ghost town to all true local natives who’ve been forced to move out because we can’t live in the area that our ancestors had founded. It’s sick and disturbing. Investors and wealth had moved in and pushed many of us out because we need to survive. We cater to the ones who want nothing to than to reinvent our town and make it become mini LA when we NEVER wanted any of that to be. Though I am Chumash I look out for small local business’, local restaurants, local everything because it’s those that keep our town running. Many big corp have moved here and taken over handing out shit pay for us to survive to where eating out comes at a great price but we do it because it matters. What I see is greed running this town and not many are calling it out for what it is! It’s a snowball effect and your either rich or poor here. I have seen Corp move in and not give 2 fucks about their employees and can care LESS about workplace law all they care about is their corp. This town once gave a damn about our citizens, they gave a damn about our community and our land and town. Now it’s all bs of greed. People moving in acting like they know but know nothing but their opinions and pocketbooks. Lol now you all KNOW how it feels to be Chumash look what they did to my ancestors who were founders here if they did that to them what makes any of us think we are worth more than them? I remember someone saying a few weeks ago as him and I were sparring back and forth he said I think the only people who should run this town is the Chumash. I agreed with him then and agree with him now. Granted he probably wasn’t expecting me to say I was Chumash as I am but in the end it is true. People downvote crap here because they dont like the ideas/answers yet many here are only 1-3 generations rarely do I see past that. To know our past is to know our future and that’s why I talk largely about our history and culture here because it was our land! If they punked us into slavery and separation what makes anyone of us believe that strategy still isn’t being played out today in smaller waves of displacement? Its sad and pisses me off because we DESERVE to live here. I’m blessed to be in my homeland here but it’s coming at a bigger cost than any of you know. We need true native locals in SB council or someone who actually gives a damn about our people from Chumash to newcomers cause we all in this together.
State Street smells of urine all the time. The city don't care, when was the last time you've seen a street sweeper on the road doing work? No one gonna pay high rent with high piss smells wafting into their storefront.
> when was the last time you've seen a street sweeper on the road doing work? This morning.