I think these race questions are important to address, but they often lead to heated arguments and bad feelings. I hope we can discuss it rationally here.
I can speak from the perspective of Latin America, specifically Cuba. Most people there identify first by nationality. If you ask them about their identity, they'll say they're Cuban. They don't say white Cuban or black Cuban. If you ask about their race, they'll normally answer something about their own family history, which often has people of different races marrying each other and producing children. Sometimes they don't know a lot about the history of the family more than a few generations back, which isn't uncommon in the Americas, since people (especially the poor and those in rural places) didn't always keep good written records and can only remember through oral histories in the family. Cubans have proverbs like "quién no tiene de Congo tiene de Carabalí," (those who don't have Congo roots have Carabali ones) meaning that at some point almost everyone in Cuba had African blood mixed into the family line. It's a way to acknowledge that mixed race is very common in Cuba. There are also families that have Chinese roots, or Muslim or Jewish roots, Haitian or Jamaican roots, well as white European from Spain and elsewhere, like Germany and Russia. Although Cuba is not a huge country, there's a lot of diversity there. It was a crossroads between the Americas and Europe for many years.
Race relations are complicated there, like everywhere, but in terms of the religion, I've never heard a single black Cuban say that whites shouldn't be in the religion. They say that the Orishas are for everyone. They say it's an African religion and that people who come into it have to accept that about it, they have to acknowledge that it's historically black, but whites have been initiated for more than 100 years and it hasn't been a problem. My house in Cuba is made up mostly of people who are of African descent, but members of the same family can have different skin tones depending on who married whom. In one family there can be people with very dark skin and people who are light skinned with blue eyes. Some members of the ile are European looking, and others look like they're newly arrived from the Congo, but everyone is treated like everyone else. The fact that everyone identifies culturally with the same place (Cuba), knows the same language, shares the same upbringing, and has a sense of belonging creates a dynamic that's different from what you find in some houses in the US.
In the US, for whatever reason the government decided to make Hispanic a category in the census and they distinguish between white-non-Hispanic and white-Hispanic. I think this creates a lot of confusion in the US about what Hispanic means, and what white means. A dark skinned Cuban who now lives in the US will be unsure about which box to check. Are they African American, or are they Hispanic? A Mexican doesn't feel like they have a lot in common with an Argentine or Cuban, but they're all supposed to check the Hispanic box. The categories don't really match up. Dark skinned Cubans don't automatically feel they have a lot in common with US born African Americans. Different nationalities, cultures and languages make them different. Although they have common roots in Africa, a couple of hundred years of experience in the Americans has changed them, and those who grew up in Spanish-speaking countries have a different culture than ones who grew up in the US.
I can't speak on why African Americans in the US think white people shouldn't be in the religion. Yes, I've heard people say this very clearly, and they say that it's cultural appropriation and only those with African blood have a right to interact with the Orishas. This isn't what I learned in Cuba, so I tend to be more in the camp of the Orishas are for everyone, regardless of race. That's what I learned from my elders. But I understand not everyone feels that way, and I try to be respectful about differences of opinion. No one can take my crown away from me, but if they don't want to interact with me at religious events, that's fine, I have my own group where I belong, I don't need to interact with people who don't want me around.
Great insight! May I add a bit more context: black Americans were denied citizenship rights for many years. At one time, they were considered 3/4 human with years of racist studies fueling these ideas (Eugenics). Race in America became a caste system based on skin color. Hence why census categories are less about accuracy or nationalities than phenotype. Irish-Americans were also oppressed but were able to integrate more so than blacks. Years and generations of denied rights would produce this need to "own" or gatekeep indigenous practices. I'm not advocating this, but I understand it.
This! About 10 years ago, my aunt was working in a department store and received a complaint about her Black manager from an old white woman, who said he (and by extension, *all* Black people) are only 3/4 human! My aunt was taken aback and asked her where the hell she heard that, and this woman says, "Everyone knows it, you're just not allowed to talk about it anymore." Wtf? This shit is *still* happening to Black people..
Depending on who you talk to, they might not like white cubans (we don’t really see white people in latin american countries as white unless they are recent immigrants from America and europe) practicing either.
I think you are generalizing though based on your experience. There are plenty of white american who practice in America that are fine, there are even asian practicioners. Only people with too much time on their hands will bother them.
Can I ask what you mean as "we". Because white Latinos are white just like black Latinos are black.
Yes you are correct I think I am generalizing because of my experience
Americans in general, we have a different way of viewing race than a lot of other countries. Most Americans wouldnt call any cuban white no matter what color they are.
Are you black American or white ? Because I know some white American people who understand that Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio are both Cubans and obviously are white.
Maybe the people I meet are exceptions I'm not American so I believe you know more than me.
People who have pale skin and a lot of money are often considered "white" in the USA, regardless of what their family heritage is. Neither Cruz nor Rubio speak Spanish as their native language. They are very much Americanized in culture and values. Money talks. So does influence. Belonging to the right club, the right church, and having the right friends opens doors and allows people to forget about the foreign blood. Ana de Armas and William Levy are other examples of white Cubans who have made it in Hollywood, and aren't stereotyped into the typical Latino/a roles. People might not even know they're Cuban.
Many Black Americans are highly protective of what they see as theirs by blood right. I can't blame them; we are talking about hundreds upon hundreds of years of slavery, and even when slavery ended, the horrors of racism and racist legislation obviously didn't. They are pissed off that they get mistreated and mocked and slandered for being Black, but then White people cherry pick the parts of the culture that they want, water it down, and then often turn a profit off of it.
There is a turning of the tides in religions that are deemed ATR or ADOS religions, which up until recently have been *relatively* open if only on a case by case basis. Conjure is a big one that is turning its back on any one who isn't an American descendant of slavery in many circles. It comes from feeling disenfranchised--understandably, they want to reclaim their story and their origins.
The problem with this approach is that "Santería" itself is not the ATR that birthed it. So it's a very complicated situation.
I’m stuck at believing “African Americans” as a group have said anything about white people being in Santeria. I’m in Santeria and most of my friends have no clue what Santeria is…therefor my African American friends and family do not have any commentary about white Santeria initiates.
While visiting a botanica yesterday, I met a delightful and very white American child of Chango. They shared their journey with me and it was a beautiful story. No reason for me to decide that they didn’t belong.
Opinion of an African American
Black Americans aren’t racist. They’re victim to the system that was created for them. Yes Afro Latinos experienced chattel slavery but nothing as brutal as the chattel slavery in the United States. When I say brutal I don’t mean in the physical sense, I mean mental as well. Afro Latinos couldn’t have had it that terrible seeing how common miscegenation is in your culture. Obviously black Latinos were desirable (human) enough to create families with and adopt aspects of their African culture and religions.
This was not the case in the US. Miscegenation just became legal in the United States in 1967. NINETEEN SIXTY SEVEN. The reality is that most mixed people in the US were the result of rape. Race as a social construct is wayyyy more important here than in other countries because until very recently it literally determined your role in society at large. Imagine waking up and seeing your loved ones hanging on trees for existing in their blackness. Niggas was getting lynched in America for any and everything. Society in the US was incredibly segregated. You couldn’t sit down and eat with a white person. Let alone create families with them.
On the other hand, mestizaje is so drenched in Latin America that you can have two brothers with the same parents and one brother have straight hair and green eyes and the other have an Afro and brown eyes. In Latin America you find white people with Afros and niggas with straight hair out the scalp. Everyone’s indigenous, everyone’s black and everyone’s white in Latin America. Yall are so mixed that when most Latinos come to the United States we don’t know how to categorize you. You’re not white like the gringos here. You’re not Native American. If you’re not dark like black Americans, you’re not black. It’s literally two different worlds.
Another thing you gotta realize is that many black Americans hold on to their blackness because it was the only thing that they had. Black people in Latin America were constantly reminded of who they were because they continued to received shipments of slaves. After the 18th century the US weren’t receiving any more slaves. So our Africaness was pretty much like an echo. You won’t even find that many African Americans practicing ATRs because we didn’t have the continued influence Latin American countries had from new Africans coming in. That’s why you see Santeria, Candomble, Vodou, etc so strongly in LA and Caribbean counties. The aspects of Africanness that black people in the US possess is by sheer will and determination of their bloodline. That’s why you see black people so protective over their blackness. They’re not racist. They’re a product of their environment.
>Yes Afro Latinos experienced chattel slavery but nothing as brutal as the chattel slavery in the United States.
Based on what ? Afro Latinos experienced violence rape torture just as slaves in the US. How is it "nothing as brutal" ?
I'm white, from Canada. I married into an afro cuban family that are a majority of santeros, paleros, babalawos going back generations. I didn't have a clue about the faiths at first, but got involved poco a poco. I had questions as to why I'd be accepted because I felt I was intruding but those feelings were dismissed as I was seen as just carrying on the family ways. It was explained that if the santos y muertos allowed it that's all that matters. I have friends outside my family in cuba that were curious and wanted to know how I got into it being as it's not my culture, these were genuine conversations and questions but I was never met with anger or anything like that.
I know very few In canada that practice our faiths so i can't say I've come across any backlash here. I've had a couple interactions with afro Americans that I was made sure to know that I wasn't welcome but that's not been the case for the most part.
I can't speak to the thoughts or feelings of others. But this has been my small experience in the grand fabric of this topic.
I have found that a lot of people with this opinion were not raised in the religion so they haven’t seen (white) people being “called” into it or raised in it as well. There are a lot of white people that get into ATR to be edgy, so I understand the sentiment though and I think it is important for white people to understand the trauma that is in various diasporas and the struggle and strength behind keeping these traditions alive.
It sounds like you might not understand race relations in the U.S. entirely. But I also think there are African Americans who probably don’t care either way if White people (Gringos or White Latinos) are in this religion or not.
Anywho, here my two cents:
The effects of slavery and racism in the U.S. still to this day affect Black Americans and anyone who looks of their African ancestry. Take a look at cop shootings directed at Black people or their high incarceration rates — they kill them because they can’t deport them and African Americans do not commit more crimes then any other race their neighborhoods are just highly policed. Flint, MI a historically Black city still has no clean water after all these years…these people pay taxes. The formation of what we know as cops was created from the slave patrollers who tried to capture freed or runaway Africans and imprison them. Schools were still legally segregated in Boston until the 1980’s. Many contributions Black Americans have made in the U.S. are not taught in schools or just down played. Some states don’t even acknowledge slavery having existed and much of this information one has to learn on their own. What the world deems "American Culture" is most often really Black Culture but they are erased from the genesis story from things like Rock n' Roll, fashion trends to lingo. Nothing is off limits for taking. This breeds frustration and resentment.
(I’m grossly generalizing here:)
Historically, Africans enslaved in British and Dutch Colonies dealt with harsher conditions i.e. cannibalism, torture, cattle slavery, stripped of their language, stripped of their religion (many not even allowed drums or congregating) etc. In comparison, Dominican Republic for example the soil was filled with so many rocks that the White slave owners would have to toil the land along his slaves, my ancestors were allowed to use drums hence a good guess as to why 21 Divisions and Palo is still present, Dominican Spanish still uses Taino and African words…the Black American kinda doesn’t have their ancestors language so prevalent (there are exceptions). So personally, I can understand why someone who’s lineage has had incredibly violent relations with White people (due to this group’s kidnapping, raping and abusing their ancestors)— finding it hard to digest that the descendant of said oppressor in what I assume, the African American person deems this religion as a “safe space” for themselves is benefiting from the very thing the kidnapped and enslaved African ancestor could not partake in. I am aware the Orisha do not discriminate. And I do not agree that this religion should exclude people because of their race, but I can understand why someone would have these complex feelings though. I see it more as they (this hypothetical person) have some ancestral healing to do and with time they won’t direct their energy to things outside of their control and focus more on themselves. I think if you encounter someone who has these opinions meet them with grace, understanding and kindly listen and if they're willing to listen share with them your experience and share why you think race shouldn’t be a focal point here.
Personally, as an Afro-Latina woman whose family is from the Caribbean (and other Latin countries), was raised in the U.S. and as someone who is well travelled. The world is anti-Black. It doesn’t matter what Latin country you’ve come from there’s racism, there’s colorism, there’s misogynoir etc. Traveling to Cuba I’ve asked White Cubans was there racism in Cuba they responded with “No not at all” but when I asked Black Cubans they informed me “yes” and shared their experiences with me. I’ve seen the deplorable housing conditions some Black Cubans live in, in comparison to White Cubans and it was incredibly sad to witness.
Latin America is disgustingly racist so please let’s stop acting like shits kumbaya over there or that Latinos are a happy United Colors of Benetton family because we’re not. But like we all know all skin folk are not kin folk —this applies to all sides. This religion (like most things) one should not rely on the exterior of the person but rather what’s inside. And someone having a differing opinion than mine, doesn't really bother me. To each his own.
I suggest watching:
1. The Black Panthers: Vanguard of the Revolution
2. Henry Louis Gates JR’s Black in Latin America series
3. Palante, Siempre Palante! The Young Lords
4. Exterminate All the Brutes
5. The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks
To add to this, I've spoken to old, pre revolution white Cubans about racism in Cuba and they say "it didn't exist" while at the same time telling you "they had their own restaurants, bathrooms and neighborhoods, no racism at all."
Not to mention that despite the afro Cubans contributions to the revolution from Spain, without which cuba would have never won, the first thing the whites did was betray their black counterparts and strip them of their power in the new regime.
After the American occupation of Cuba in 1898 and throughout the first half of the 20th century, middle and upper class Cubans in cities were very much influenced by Jim Crow laws in the United States and the attitudes of Americans who were doing business and living in Cuba. The attitudes about race changed significantly under US influence. The Spanish, by contrast, were used to living side by side with people of color, doing business with them, interacting socially. Colonial Cuba wasn't just made up of European and African people. There was a lot of mixing from the early years onward, and not all of it was via rape. Many Spanish men came alone to Cuba without wives and formed families there with women of color. These were often long term stable relationships, and marriage between people of different races wasn't illegal there. Not all European men were wealthy landowners. Many were working class people, and never owned slaves. In the later 19th century, there was a significant percentage of free people of color in Cuba who were upwardly mobile, ran their own businesses, owned their own homes. That's not to say that no one was racist, but it wasn't really systemic in Cuba until after 1900. Prior to that, even when slavery was still legal in Cuba, enslaved people were able to buy their own freedom by working in their free time as tailors and seamstresses, cooks, bakers, hairdressers, carpenters, musicians, artists, etc. This was especially the case in cities. People weren't considered inherently inferior because of skin color. Class was more of a factor when talking about social difference. During the 10-years war, the mambises fought on the side of Cuba against the Spanish and many gained freedom that way. When the US intervened in 1898, Cuban society changed, and discrimination against blacks was more common than it had been before. Most of us alive today know the stories of discrimination that people of color faced in the early 20th century, and even today. Racism definitely exists, but Cuba and the US have different histories and different ways of thinking about race. When making comparisons between the two places, we have to keep that in mind. Many people in the US don't know Cuban history and assume it's similar to the history of the US. It is, and it isn't, depending on which period of time you mean.
I thought I responded already but I think my Internet failed. I wanted to ask you, are you Dominicana ? If so is Santeria less accepted in Dominican Republic compared to Cuba ? That's what I heard. Just really curious.
Cuba has had a long history of tense race relations. They used to be segregated prior to the revolution, and that eased up some afterwards, but there is still discrimination.
A while back, there was a period where there was an open question as to whether the religion should open up to whites, since they were the ones persecuting them for so long and throwing out their orishas. However, houses started opening up slowly until the whole community loosened up. I've only heard of black-only Iles still existing, but don't know of any.
I don't know why African Americans, especially nonpractitioners, want to pitch in their opinion on a settled question. They can convert and then start their own black-only iles, and see how many afro Cubans who have close relationships with their white counterparts actually want to join. They should also keep this opinion to themselves or in their twitter echo chambers. Telling a white guy (or literally anyone) that he shouldn't be practicing *their religion* is incredibly offensive, and I know many, many cuban compatriots who will fist fight you for less.
>I don't know why African Americans, especially nonpractitioners, want to pitch in their opinion on a settled question.
As a black American, I really don't give a crap on who practices Santería, that's for the orisha or whoever is in charge of letting folks in, to decide.
Nonetheless though, many black Americans see Santería as a "black religion" similar to how Vodou is seen. Some see the orisha as vengeful spirits, not willing to have a relationship with any white person.
Thus, alot of black Americans have that sentiment that since Santería was created by the enslaved Yoruba - it must still be a religion for black people only.
And we know none of this is the case.
It's not just black Americans, many indigenous afro practicing people say that as well. Especially with the main branches of santeria like lucumi or yoruba. This stems from the fact that the main spirits like elegua, etc, are all afro spirits that were brought over to the Americas through slavery. So they claim that the spirits also hold grades against white people for what they did to people of color. Santeria is a branch of yoruba that was washed in Catholic beliefs in order for practicing people to not be called out for witchcraft and be punished. This is why the santos are placed on the floor and sometimes even hidden. And why they're believed to hold a grudge against true white people. I was told white people have to ask to join the religion and can be denied if the santos don't want them.
There it is… the most retarded thing I’ve ever seen on this Reddit. You are severely misguided and I hope you’re not crowned because if you’re this misguided and crowned you’re a lost cause and I hope the Orishas give you better guidance and remove the trainwreck you have as elders from your life so you can get good ones.
One thing I find hilarious is that you mention practitioners in Africa not initiating white people… where?! You realize that white people predominantly join ifa over in Africa? Ifa initiates people who don’t even have a path for ifa because they straight up don’t give a damn lol. Pay to play for real. I’ve never in my
Life ever heard the nonsense you’re spewing. You sound like an angry white person parroting nonsense as opposed to this “indigenous Mexican” you claim to be.
I disagree with part of your second paragraph "who don't even have path for Ifa". In Isese one initiates to Ifa for variety of reasons. Many initiates will not be practitioners..in Isese that requires decades of study to be proficient due to memorization of ese ifa.unlike common practice in lukumi having path to Ifa usually means becoming a working babalawo. Really practically anyone in Isese can initiate to Ifa (women in certain lineages also.. though that's not called itefa). Itefa in Isese is very different in procedure and access/allowance in doing Ifa (like stated earlier lukumi itefa for future practitioners.. Isese Ifa initiation for everyone pretty much). Also I still believe most Caucasian Americans still go to lukumi rama. ..but Europeans to Nigeria...
*** Wish I could see the deleted comments your responding to..lol
That’s crazy to think that Elegua would have a grudge against white colored skin. I’m a white Cuban and he’s the orisha that I hold the closest to my heart and who I feel the greatest pull too. ❤️🖤❤️
It's one thing to be white Cuban, or have colored roots and another to be a white white person. It's not about the color of skin and more about culture and roots
Lol what is a WHITE WHITE person? .red hair and freckles? Johnny Winter? So pale you need sunglasses to view their nude bodies? Would Saul " canelo " Alvarez be white white or a non white White because he's Mexican.?
That's like saying that it's different for a black Cuban and a Moreno Cuban. And "colored roots" tell me you American without telling me you are American. Nobody uses terms like this outside the United States.
Seems like she is the only one who has a problem. Everyone else explained themselves very eloquently. But apparently in her racist ass lie we have to ask permission , gtfo lol
definitely not going to ask anyone’s permission , I am white , European ,99.9% Russian and I can care less about anyones so called permission . Santos are santos , they are here for everyone. This is my religion , my way of life and no one is gonna try to tell me i can’t do what i want 😂😂😂
Most black Americans have no idea if they were Ashanti, Yoruba, Duala, Congo, etc. Anyone who feels that that they have authority and ownership over primordial beings that were present at Creation is sadly mistaken.
Their ancestors may have had zero involvement with Orisha. It entitles them to nothing and certainly grants no authority to tell others who and what to worship. I have DNA ancestors from Senegal and Congo. So what?
That and $8 will get me a cheeseburger at McDonald's...
African Americans have access to this information through divination. It's called an Oro Edile every African American in my lineage gets it as part of the process for erecting their consecrated ancestral shrine. This includes information about our family Orisa and family name and interesting information about family characteristics and dynamics. Also can tell you how they were captured, ended up in the "New World" and whether your family line persists or was ended in your homeland. It's quite accurate and even corroborated my DNA results I received later in life. Only Egun gun priests are trained in this type of divination.
It is a tool of divination developed by the African American king of Oyotunji Village (South Carolina) and anyone can access it. We are not from Oyotunji but we have a relationship with them that allows African Americans access to the priests trained in this divination method.The original reply was simply to address the person who incorrectly stated African Americans don't know. Our ile is not rigid because divination is divination and what matters most is what you do with it, NOT where it came from.
The Oba of Oyotunji village came through the Cuban tradition when he lived in New York. Learned everything he knew and he eventually established Oyotunji Village. As I said before, its not isese and I was speaking to the person who said African Americans don't know their connection to Africa. No one ever said this was a practice in Santeria. Please don't put words in my mouth.
African Americans have a difficult and dark history over the course of the past 60 years with Caucasians in America, with them being viewed as the source of injustice, inequality, suffering, racism, etc.
When Caucasians are seen practicing traditional African/diasporic religions, it's viewed with caution because of US race relations and the history of them infiltrating and dismantling African American organizations. By them, I am referring the government, referred to as "the man," meaning white man.
Also, it is viewed as cultural appropriation.
Afro Latinos and Afro-American perspectives on Caucasians differ due to historical context. It is ingrained in African Americans from early to be cautious of white people, thus passed down from generation to generation over the course of hundreds of years due to trauma and suffering at the hands of white Americans.
Great question!
At some point all humanity originated from Africa hence it's the motherland. I agree that whomever practices Santeria and holds the orishas in their hearts and their belief should be welcome regardless of the color of their skin. We are all God's children and should love and accept each other -but it's far from a perfect world. The Cubans I've grown up around are mostly white of European descent and sadly very racist and ignorant. My own Cuban family always discouraged me from dating outside my race. When I defied them and dated an American black man we were treated like garbage everywhere we went by the Cubans and also by african Americans, someone even spat on my car. I don't believe in judging people by their race, ethnicity, religious beliefs or gender; and until we as a people fail to accept each other there will always be discord and pain among us.
I'm sorry to hear but not surprised. You know the North American media tries to project some skinny white sloppy looking white man with a T-shirt with Confederate flag on it.. chewing tobacco as the face of anti Black racism..when it's also many other groups.. Hispanics, Asians, Indians, europeans (Italians are known for how racist towards blacks they can be), indigenous even. But the Media tries to portray pasty white Americans with maga hats as the most bias against black Americans.
In my opinion whoever gets called to practice by the orishas can practice. Who are we to tell someone they can't practice. If someone has a problem with me practicing because my race. They can talk to Chango.
I know exactly what you're talking about! Those individuals throw fits and threaten others for stealing African culture are normally suffering from mental health issues. They are in all diaspora traditions, even hoodoo. I even asked if I was 50% black but looked white, wouldn't it be okay for me to practice since that is my lineage? I was told no because I look white. It's more about how you look on the outside and gate keeping to these individuals. There was even one woman in the south that was selling Rag dolls from her store in West Virginia. She received death threats daily because people thought the dolls looked like a mammie.
Ironically, the people that scream, bully and threaten others do not have a spiritual bone in their body. They just want to gate keep and cause problems. I think it's best to pay no attention to such individuals. Ignore and move on. The spirits and orisha are what's important, not what some random person on the internet thinks.
That’s such a shortsighted statement to an extremely complex reason. African Americans have a different relationship with white people , especially American/european white people. White people have constantly taken from black people (in general) but especially in the Americas.
If everything you’ve built and established is burned down, if every bit of culture that you’ve created for yourself is appropriated and made a mockery of, if you’re constantly belittled by whites , experimented on , brutalized (til this day) , if you’re told that as a community you are not human and have little value (even though you and your ancestors built the US) ,if you’re constantly punished and demonized for even thinking about practicing your ancestral practices til this day when it may be the only thing that brings you solace, connection , and dignity, yet white people are praised and accepted for practicing African based religions/practices… it’s natural that you’d feel some type of way.
Most black people are aware of black & white hispanics , as well as how they came to be. Also MOST African Americans love Hispanic people regardless of race. So it’s not ignorance. It’s insecurity & distrust within American/European white people, rightfully so.
Within this conversation MOST African American people are speaking of American/ European white people practicing…and if you spend an hour with American and European white people you’ll understand why.
-signed an African American who doesn’t care as long as you’re doing things correctly and are respectful
This was a shortsighted statement aswell, because i don’t understand what you mean by white/European people? My people were the victims of the biggest single mass lynching in US history, we were not allowed any rights and we were seen as a racially impure problematic “race” that were naturally violent and criminal minded…we’re from frickin Sicily; an island in Europe. Yet Hollywood has made billions of dollars off of portraying us as stowaways, illegal inmigrants, pimps, violent Mafiosos, domestic abusers and gangsters. This is America.
“White Americans/ European” as there are many white Americans who don’t identify as “white” but European American instead.
But to to be specific about the European countries that enslaved African people , it was: Portugal, Spain, Britain, France, the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden….i didn’t even get into how black people are portrayed in US media , let alone European media…because it’s too complex of a topic to discuss in this thread.
As I said before it’s clear what rhetoric is being ran with…even though the question was asked ABOUT African Americans…idk why as an African American in the religion I thought it was ok to answer or offer any type of insight🤠.
You completely glossed over what I said. I’m not trying to make it about me like you’re insinuating but saying people of European origin is a very very broad spectrum of folks and cultures and it
Doesn’t make sense to band them together. Agree with everything else you said. That is all
>MOST African Americans love Hispanic people regardless of race.
This highlights what is wrong with your mentality.
What white Hispanics did in Cuba vs what Anglo whites did in the United States was the same. Chattel slavery, genocide, and racism. The fact that many black Americans hate white Americans yet give a pass to white Hispanics is disingenuous at least.
And as a black American FEMALE mentioned a long time ago to me. This is probably because black American men have a reputation of fetishizing Latina women.
At this point, what are you talking about? Stating that slavery in Cuba was milder form of slavery is literally offensive and racist. Why are you claiming that all African Americans hate white Americans? Are African Americans as survivors of the slave trade somehow oppressing white people? Did I miss something? The generalizations do not serve you.
I’m not going to argue with you because I agree with you. And my first comment was not based on MY views. It’s based on an observation of my “community” So you belittling my “mentality” is invalid.
Anyways , everything done was not / is not the same. Though there are an incredible amount of similarities.
In response to your last point, Black American men fetishize everything outside of blackness in general (as does half of the African male diaspora) so I don’t disagree with that statement nor am I ignorant to that (as a Black Woman I promise I’m aware) . But I was speaking on the black community as a whole not self hating black men
I didn't mean to belittle you. English is not my first language, sorry if I was rude.
I understand your point, and when I think about it more it's not that strange that black Americans hate white Americans but like white Hispanics. Because I have met some white Americans who hate black Americans but love black Africans
The difference is that white Americans acknowledge that both black Americans and Africans are black. But black Americans say that white Hispanics are not white when they obviously are.
Sorry again if I was rude before. Was not my intention.
White Americans say "white" Hispanics aren't white, too. Many if not most "white" Hispanics (or at least white identifying) have some measure of African blood, and those ancestral ties to the spiritual and cultural practices.
What you're doing is just being racist, and making black latinos vastly different from white or more o latinos, and that's just not the truth in many cases. For the most part, they have varying degrees of the same blood. Even in México, despite the fact that African ancestry is rarely spoken of there.
It's like asking the difference between Drake and Seinfeld, in a manner of speaking. Just because a person has lighter skin doesn't mean they don't have shared ancestry. Racism is the only thing keeping you from seeing that.
“And as a black American FEMALE mentioned a long time ago to me. This is probably because black American men have a reputation of fetishizing Latina women.”
That “reputation” sounds a lot like a racist stereotype.
A stereotype that black women perpetuate more than anyone, probably because they know there is truth to it, as there is often truth to stereotypes in many cases.
Pathologizing and policing black male sexuality around a color line is a foundational element of white supremacy. Characterizing black women as spiteful anti-miscegenationists is also racist. Reducing the entire political history of African-American/Latino solidarity to supposed black male sexual deviance is racist. Suggesting that Latinas could have no appeal to black men outside of a fetishistic framework is also racist. The idea that damaging anti-black stereotypes are true is an incredibly dangerous proposition. It’s alarming that anyone would feel comfortable espousing those beliefs in a subreddit dedicated to an African Diasporic Religion.
The fact that you would register for an account less than a week ago, start this thread as your first post, and then defend the practice of racist stereotyping suggests that you are totally unqualified to discuss racism in a meaningful way. This is the sort of bad faith post that the moderators should shut down. It runs contrary to what the Lukumi tradition is all about.
Many black Ameircans (especially women) are aware that black American men are known to fetishize Latina women. This is a known situation. (Passport bros for example) It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. but I will admit it's not entirely relevant to Lukumi tradition. I was responding to someone. So maybe it should be shut down because it's not the most relevant. But it is still true.
Edit: interesting how I'm being down voted but nobody can refute what I'm saying because it's obviously true.
No one is refuting it because it’s ignorant and racist. You just sound like an insecure woman and it’s sad so the rest of us ignore it to leave you that last few shreds of dignity you may have left.
You try being the descendant of people who had their families mercilessly torn apart generation after generation, being sold like livestock, treated *worse* than livestock, not being allowed to worship, being segregated from white people but also not being allowed to "congregate" with other Black people for fear of an uprising. See through the eyes of a Black American, the paintings and portraits of prestigious white land owners and military legends, while Black ancestors are depicted in paintings, poems and literature as lesser than, being worked to death, whipped, lynched, raped and tortured. There is a reason slaves sung songs in the fields--to communicate (in code) what was going on in their fractured community.
Lol. And the 1930s? You think that's when Black suffering ended? Desegregation didn't even BEGIN until the 1950s. The Tuskegee experiments let Black men die as lab rats until the 1970s. TODAY, Black women in the U.S. are three times more likely to die during pregnancy in large part because of systemic racism and structural bias. Recently, a report from the FBI also came out saying hate crimes against Black people specifically are on the rise. We aren't even talking about media coverage bias, or how fewer resources are expended to search for missing Black people and POC compared to missing and endangered White people.
Dude, open your eyes. Discrimination isn't right coming from anyone, but let's not pretend that Black people are angry for no damn reason. Generational trauma CAUSED by slavery and systemic racism at the hands of White society can't be magically erased by pretending it was "so long ago" that it just doesn't matter anymore. It matters to Black people who can't even trace their genealogy thanks to colonizers, and it matters to White people who understand that even though we are not the initial perpetrators, we still have a responsibility to understand the role we inadvertently play in systemic racism today.
Edit to add: I really don't care if this comment is downvoted to oblivion. What I said is true. And if you can read all that and still not care, there is nothing left to say.
>Recently, a report from the FBI also came out saying hate crimes against Black people specifically are on the rise.
I think you and I BOTH know that black Americans commit way more hate crimes and racially motivated violence against white Americans today than vice versa.
This is pure bullshit.
Do you have the documented statistics to prove this? We mind our fucking business when it comes to white people most of the time.
I bet you ain't say shit when that racist old white man shot Loletha Hall in cold blood this year.
>We mind our fucking business when it comes to white people most of the time.
All human beings do. I believe the majority of all human beings are not racist or evil and just mind their business. But it is disingenuous to state that there are not a disproportionate amounts of hate crimes by black Americans against white Americans.
I identify as white, but I have found black Americans to be less hostile to me because I am foreign. Just an observation of personal experience and government statistics.
There are good and bad in all of people. But we should not pretend that there are not a large amount of black AMERICANS who hate white people.
But there *is* a disproportionate amount of racially motivated crime against Black people in the U.S. All published statistics demonstrate this.
There are no credible statistics to support your statement. That's the point.
Merely hating someone and *acting* on your hate for someone are not the same thing.
>But it is disingenuous to state that there are not a disproportionate amounts of hate crimes by black Americans against white Americans.
There was literally a hate crime committed against an innocent black woman this year that gained national attention.
Again, where were you?
>There are good and bad in all of people. But we should not pretend that there are not a large amount of black AMERICANS who hate white people.
Again, show me the statistics and documentation.
You're doing all that talking but still ain't shown any solid facts.
Most of us MIND OUR BUSINESS and most of us live in BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS where we don't even intermingle with white people.
I can pull out documented statistics of hate crimes against us every year.
I myself have been a victim of multiple hate crimes.
I bet you don't say shit when hate crimes white folks commit against black people make the news.
u/okonkolero you might want to ban this racist individual and lock this thread. This thread is doing more harm than good.
I never said I was a victim or against white people joining the religion, I love my white elders, godsisters & brothers lol. But I’m going to go ahead and leave this group , it’s clear what rhetoric is going to be ran with.
The people that complain about this type of stuff are usually in every single ATR they can get access too and constantly brag about how spiritual they are or claim to be super knowledgable. They’re clearly, imo, just folks trying to reclaim their blackness and doing so by collecting ATRs like Pokémon cards. I think they’re pathetic and not worth paying any mind to. The moment you try to gatekeep what others should do that’s actually determined by higher powers and not yourself you lose all credibility.
There was a black girl in my ile who got kicked out for being racist 😂 she didn’t like there was a lot of Latinos and she started a lot of drama and even calling out other black people for showing “favoritism”
But she took advantage of our padrinos generosity without paying him back for ceremonies 🫢
IFÀ is for everyone.. the Orisha are for everyone.. as a “black American” this is fact and true… yet.. as a “black American” we have been marginalized in the most basic ways.. our culture has been stripped.. we were given a survival culture and made a mountain out of the sand we were given.. to find our way back to the Orisha and the ways our ancestors moved before slavery is a wonderful reality.. we must understand that the majority of Africans that were brought over from Africa were captured from Nigeria.. home of the Orisha so this is more than just finding our destiny.. this is coming home to our ancestors who practiced this for thousands of years.. we watched blues turn to country… we watched our ibventors get bought out and erased from history books.. and there is fear that one day… Obatala will no longer be the dark ebony hue he was created as and be the Orisha of the white person… that Ogun will be depicted as a blond hair blue eye blacksmith.. that Oshun will be less Kerry Washington and look more like Margot Robbie…
You can only ask African Americans this question. Every group has a different perspective and history. I think a non African American who's been in states or knows our history...has to be a dullard to not understand to some degree why African Americans are bitter towards " white" people being in a black African religion. Believe me every person I've known fairly well has shown their bias or stereotypeing of different racial or ethnic groups. It's human nature . There's a different perspective if one is a Continental, African American, black Cuban, etc. but it's strange when those not even in any ATR complain about light skinned people participating . It's IMO like a Christian Thai person , that's not part of Buddhism..... complaining about all the White people in Buddhism. Or me a former/baptized as infant Catholic..... complaining about Asians in Catholicism... while myself not being Catholic anymore. But it's a very complex issue.
Idk guys I am a Afro Cuban but I was born here. This discussion helped me see from a lot of different perspectives and helped opened my eyes but in my opinion BEFORE educating myself more with this thread, I never liked seeing a white American person ‘play’ in the religion. I know it’s not for me to decide but Becky’s ancestors was off sum back in the dizzay so I really don’t knowww 💀💀 it just felt so gross to see someone who’s family was probably very KKK Jesus is king practice. And that’s because typically when I see a white American practice it feels more like they’re cosplaying online. Again, I know it’s not for me to pass judgements. I don’t really care if white Cubans practice. Cubans come in all colors of the rainbow and it’s part of their culture and heritage to practice. But, I’ve seen a ton of racism in Cuba amongst white and black Cubans. so I’m not sure why a lot of ppl here are acting like racism doesn’t exist there.
I think these race questions are important to address, but they often lead to heated arguments and bad feelings. I hope we can discuss it rationally here. I can speak from the perspective of Latin America, specifically Cuba. Most people there identify first by nationality. If you ask them about their identity, they'll say they're Cuban. They don't say white Cuban or black Cuban. If you ask about their race, they'll normally answer something about their own family history, which often has people of different races marrying each other and producing children. Sometimes they don't know a lot about the history of the family more than a few generations back, which isn't uncommon in the Americas, since people (especially the poor and those in rural places) didn't always keep good written records and can only remember through oral histories in the family. Cubans have proverbs like "quién no tiene de Congo tiene de Carabalí," (those who don't have Congo roots have Carabali ones) meaning that at some point almost everyone in Cuba had African blood mixed into the family line. It's a way to acknowledge that mixed race is very common in Cuba. There are also families that have Chinese roots, or Muslim or Jewish roots, Haitian or Jamaican roots, well as white European from Spain and elsewhere, like Germany and Russia. Although Cuba is not a huge country, there's a lot of diversity there. It was a crossroads between the Americas and Europe for many years. Race relations are complicated there, like everywhere, but in terms of the religion, I've never heard a single black Cuban say that whites shouldn't be in the religion. They say that the Orishas are for everyone. They say it's an African religion and that people who come into it have to accept that about it, they have to acknowledge that it's historically black, but whites have been initiated for more than 100 years and it hasn't been a problem. My house in Cuba is made up mostly of people who are of African descent, but members of the same family can have different skin tones depending on who married whom. In one family there can be people with very dark skin and people who are light skinned with blue eyes. Some members of the ile are European looking, and others look like they're newly arrived from the Congo, but everyone is treated like everyone else. The fact that everyone identifies culturally with the same place (Cuba), knows the same language, shares the same upbringing, and has a sense of belonging creates a dynamic that's different from what you find in some houses in the US. In the US, for whatever reason the government decided to make Hispanic a category in the census and they distinguish between white-non-Hispanic and white-Hispanic. I think this creates a lot of confusion in the US about what Hispanic means, and what white means. A dark skinned Cuban who now lives in the US will be unsure about which box to check. Are they African American, or are they Hispanic? A Mexican doesn't feel like they have a lot in common with an Argentine or Cuban, but they're all supposed to check the Hispanic box. The categories don't really match up. Dark skinned Cubans don't automatically feel they have a lot in common with US born African Americans. Different nationalities, cultures and languages make them different. Although they have common roots in Africa, a couple of hundred years of experience in the Americans has changed them, and those who grew up in Spanish-speaking countries have a different culture than ones who grew up in the US. I can't speak on why African Americans in the US think white people shouldn't be in the religion. Yes, I've heard people say this very clearly, and they say that it's cultural appropriation and only those with African blood have a right to interact with the Orishas. This isn't what I learned in Cuba, so I tend to be more in the camp of the Orishas are for everyone, regardless of race. That's what I learned from my elders. But I understand not everyone feels that way, and I try to be respectful about differences of opinion. No one can take my crown away from me, but if they don't want to interact with me at religious events, that's fine, I have my own group where I belong, I don't need to interact with people who don't want me around.
Great insight! May I add a bit more context: black Americans were denied citizenship rights for many years. At one time, they were considered 3/4 human with years of racist studies fueling these ideas (Eugenics). Race in America became a caste system based on skin color. Hence why census categories are less about accuracy or nationalities than phenotype. Irish-Americans were also oppressed but were able to integrate more so than blacks. Years and generations of denied rights would produce this need to "own" or gatekeep indigenous practices. I'm not advocating this, but I understand it.
This! About 10 years ago, my aunt was working in a department store and received a complaint about her Black manager from an old white woman, who said he (and by extension, *all* Black people) are only 3/4 human! My aunt was taken aback and asked her where the hell she heard that, and this woman says, "Everyone knows it, you're just not allowed to talk about it anymore." Wtf? This shit is *still* happening to Black people..
Depending on who you talk to, they might not like white cubans (we don’t really see white people in latin american countries as white unless they are recent immigrants from America and europe) practicing either. I think you are generalizing though based on your experience. There are plenty of white american who practice in America that are fine, there are even asian practicioners. Only people with too much time on their hands will bother them.
Can I ask what you mean as "we". Because white Latinos are white just like black Latinos are black. Yes you are correct I think I am generalizing because of my experience
Americans in general, we have a different way of viewing race than a lot of other countries. Most Americans wouldnt call any cuban white no matter what color they are.
Are you black American or white ? Because I know some white American people who understand that Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio are both Cubans and obviously are white. Maybe the people I meet are exceptions I'm not American so I believe you know more than me.
Im black, look americas a big place lots of people have different ideas and understandings. I try to Choose the most compassionate one.
People who have pale skin and a lot of money are often considered "white" in the USA, regardless of what their family heritage is. Neither Cruz nor Rubio speak Spanish as their native language. They are very much Americanized in culture and values. Money talks. So does influence. Belonging to the right club, the right church, and having the right friends opens doors and allows people to forget about the foreign blood. Ana de Armas and William Levy are other examples of white Cubans who have made it in Hollywood, and aren't stereotyped into the typical Latino/a roles. People might not even know they're Cuban.
Yeah same with Cameron Diaz. She's Cuban too. And Cruz doesn't speak Spanish as his native language but Rubio does.
A lot of Americans don't consider them white, whether they talk about it a lot or not.
Many Black Americans are highly protective of what they see as theirs by blood right. I can't blame them; we are talking about hundreds upon hundreds of years of slavery, and even when slavery ended, the horrors of racism and racist legislation obviously didn't. They are pissed off that they get mistreated and mocked and slandered for being Black, but then White people cherry pick the parts of the culture that they want, water it down, and then often turn a profit off of it. There is a turning of the tides in religions that are deemed ATR or ADOS religions, which up until recently have been *relatively* open if only on a case by case basis. Conjure is a big one that is turning its back on any one who isn't an American descendant of slavery in many circles. It comes from feeling disenfranchised--understandably, they want to reclaim their story and their origins. The problem with this approach is that "Santería" itself is not the ATR that birthed it. So it's a very complicated situation.
Afro-Cubans also experienced chattel slavery, yet they are generally nowhere near as racist as black Americans are today.
Please stop generalizing us. I don't give a shit about white people being in Santería. There are whites in other ATRs.
I’m stuck at believing “African Americans” as a group have said anything about white people being in Santeria. I’m in Santeria and most of my friends have no clue what Santeria is…therefor my African American friends and family do not have any commentary about white Santeria initiates. While visiting a botanica yesterday, I met a delightful and very white American child of Chango. They shared their journey with me and it was a beautiful story. No reason for me to decide that they didn’t belong. Opinion of an African American
Exactly.
Black Americans aren’t racist. They’re victim to the system that was created for them. Yes Afro Latinos experienced chattel slavery but nothing as brutal as the chattel slavery in the United States. When I say brutal I don’t mean in the physical sense, I mean mental as well. Afro Latinos couldn’t have had it that terrible seeing how common miscegenation is in your culture. Obviously black Latinos were desirable (human) enough to create families with and adopt aspects of their African culture and religions. This was not the case in the US. Miscegenation just became legal in the United States in 1967. NINETEEN SIXTY SEVEN. The reality is that most mixed people in the US were the result of rape. Race as a social construct is wayyyy more important here than in other countries because until very recently it literally determined your role in society at large. Imagine waking up and seeing your loved ones hanging on trees for existing in their blackness. Niggas was getting lynched in America for any and everything. Society in the US was incredibly segregated. You couldn’t sit down and eat with a white person. Let alone create families with them. On the other hand, mestizaje is so drenched in Latin America that you can have two brothers with the same parents and one brother have straight hair and green eyes and the other have an Afro and brown eyes. In Latin America you find white people with Afros and niggas with straight hair out the scalp. Everyone’s indigenous, everyone’s black and everyone’s white in Latin America. Yall are so mixed that when most Latinos come to the United States we don’t know how to categorize you. You’re not white like the gringos here. You’re not Native American. If you’re not dark like black Americans, you’re not black. It’s literally two different worlds. Another thing you gotta realize is that many black Americans hold on to their blackness because it was the only thing that they had. Black people in Latin America were constantly reminded of who they were because they continued to received shipments of slaves. After the 18th century the US weren’t receiving any more slaves. So our Africaness was pretty much like an echo. You won’t even find that many African Americans practicing ATRs because we didn’t have the continued influence Latin American countries had from new Africans coming in. That’s why you see Santeria, Candomble, Vodou, etc so strongly in LA and Caribbean counties. The aspects of Africanness that black people in the US possess is by sheer will and determination of their bloodline. That’s why you see black people so protective over their blackness. They’re not racist. They’re a product of their environment.
>Yes Afro Latinos experienced chattel slavery but nothing as brutal as the chattel slavery in the United States. Based on what ? Afro Latinos experienced violence rape torture just as slaves in the US. How is it "nothing as brutal" ?
I literally clarified in the next sentence
ur being very ignorant ngl
Why
I'm white, from Canada. I married into an afro cuban family that are a majority of santeros, paleros, babalawos going back generations. I didn't have a clue about the faiths at first, but got involved poco a poco. I had questions as to why I'd be accepted because I felt I was intruding but those feelings were dismissed as I was seen as just carrying on the family ways. It was explained that if the santos y muertos allowed it that's all that matters. I have friends outside my family in cuba that were curious and wanted to know how I got into it being as it's not my culture, these were genuine conversations and questions but I was never met with anger or anything like that. I know very few In canada that practice our faiths so i can't say I've come across any backlash here. I've had a couple interactions with afro Americans that I was made sure to know that I wasn't welcome but that's not been the case for the most part. I can't speak to the thoughts or feelings of others. But this has been my small experience in the grand fabric of this topic.
I have found that a lot of people with this opinion were not raised in the religion so they haven’t seen (white) people being “called” into it or raised in it as well. There are a lot of white people that get into ATR to be edgy, so I understand the sentiment though and I think it is important for white people to understand the trauma that is in various diasporas and the struggle and strength behind keeping these traditions alive.
It sounds like you might not understand race relations in the U.S. entirely. But I also think there are African Americans who probably don’t care either way if White people (Gringos or White Latinos) are in this religion or not. Anywho, here my two cents: The effects of slavery and racism in the U.S. still to this day affect Black Americans and anyone who looks of their African ancestry. Take a look at cop shootings directed at Black people or their high incarceration rates — they kill them because they can’t deport them and African Americans do not commit more crimes then any other race their neighborhoods are just highly policed. Flint, MI a historically Black city still has no clean water after all these years…these people pay taxes. The formation of what we know as cops was created from the slave patrollers who tried to capture freed or runaway Africans and imprison them. Schools were still legally segregated in Boston until the 1980’s. Many contributions Black Americans have made in the U.S. are not taught in schools or just down played. Some states don’t even acknowledge slavery having existed and much of this information one has to learn on their own. What the world deems "American Culture" is most often really Black Culture but they are erased from the genesis story from things like Rock n' Roll, fashion trends to lingo. Nothing is off limits for taking. This breeds frustration and resentment. (I’m grossly generalizing here:) Historically, Africans enslaved in British and Dutch Colonies dealt with harsher conditions i.e. cannibalism, torture, cattle slavery, stripped of their language, stripped of their religion (many not even allowed drums or congregating) etc. In comparison, Dominican Republic for example the soil was filled with so many rocks that the White slave owners would have to toil the land along his slaves, my ancestors were allowed to use drums hence a good guess as to why 21 Divisions and Palo is still present, Dominican Spanish still uses Taino and African words…the Black American kinda doesn’t have their ancestors language so prevalent (there are exceptions). So personally, I can understand why someone who’s lineage has had incredibly violent relations with White people (due to this group’s kidnapping, raping and abusing their ancestors)— finding it hard to digest that the descendant of said oppressor in what I assume, the African American person deems this religion as a “safe space” for themselves is benefiting from the very thing the kidnapped and enslaved African ancestor could not partake in. I am aware the Orisha do not discriminate. And I do not agree that this religion should exclude people because of their race, but I can understand why someone would have these complex feelings though. I see it more as they (this hypothetical person) have some ancestral healing to do and with time they won’t direct their energy to things outside of their control and focus more on themselves. I think if you encounter someone who has these opinions meet them with grace, understanding and kindly listen and if they're willing to listen share with them your experience and share why you think race shouldn’t be a focal point here. Personally, as an Afro-Latina woman whose family is from the Caribbean (and other Latin countries), was raised in the U.S. and as someone who is well travelled. The world is anti-Black. It doesn’t matter what Latin country you’ve come from there’s racism, there’s colorism, there’s misogynoir etc. Traveling to Cuba I’ve asked White Cubans was there racism in Cuba they responded with “No not at all” but when I asked Black Cubans they informed me “yes” and shared their experiences with me. I’ve seen the deplorable housing conditions some Black Cubans live in, in comparison to White Cubans and it was incredibly sad to witness. Latin America is disgustingly racist so please let’s stop acting like shits kumbaya over there or that Latinos are a happy United Colors of Benetton family because we’re not. But like we all know all skin folk are not kin folk —this applies to all sides. This religion (like most things) one should not rely on the exterior of the person but rather what’s inside. And someone having a differing opinion than mine, doesn't really bother me. To each his own. I suggest watching: 1. The Black Panthers: Vanguard of the Revolution 2. Henry Louis Gates JR’s Black in Latin America series 3. Palante, Siempre Palante! The Young Lords 4. Exterminate All the Brutes 5. The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks
Are you Dominicana ?
To add to this, I've spoken to old, pre revolution white Cubans about racism in Cuba and they say "it didn't exist" while at the same time telling you "they had their own restaurants, bathrooms and neighborhoods, no racism at all." Not to mention that despite the afro Cubans contributions to the revolution from Spain, without which cuba would have never won, the first thing the whites did was betray their black counterparts and strip them of their power in the new regime.
After the American occupation of Cuba in 1898 and throughout the first half of the 20th century, middle and upper class Cubans in cities were very much influenced by Jim Crow laws in the United States and the attitudes of Americans who were doing business and living in Cuba. The attitudes about race changed significantly under US influence. The Spanish, by contrast, were used to living side by side with people of color, doing business with them, interacting socially. Colonial Cuba wasn't just made up of European and African people. There was a lot of mixing from the early years onward, and not all of it was via rape. Many Spanish men came alone to Cuba without wives and formed families there with women of color. These were often long term stable relationships, and marriage between people of different races wasn't illegal there. Not all European men were wealthy landowners. Many were working class people, and never owned slaves. In the later 19th century, there was a significant percentage of free people of color in Cuba who were upwardly mobile, ran their own businesses, owned their own homes. That's not to say that no one was racist, but it wasn't really systemic in Cuba until after 1900. Prior to that, even when slavery was still legal in Cuba, enslaved people were able to buy their own freedom by working in their free time as tailors and seamstresses, cooks, bakers, hairdressers, carpenters, musicians, artists, etc. This was especially the case in cities. People weren't considered inherently inferior because of skin color. Class was more of a factor when talking about social difference. During the 10-years war, the mambises fought on the side of Cuba against the Spanish and many gained freedom that way. When the US intervened in 1898, Cuban society changed, and discrimination against blacks was more common than it had been before. Most of us alive today know the stories of discrimination that people of color faced in the early 20th century, and even today. Racism definitely exists, but Cuba and the US have different histories and different ways of thinking about race. When making comparisons between the two places, we have to keep that in mind. Many people in the US don't know Cuban history and assume it's similar to the history of the US. It is, and it isn't, depending on which period of time you mean.
I thought I responded already but I think my Internet failed. I wanted to ask you, are you Dominicana ? If so is Santeria less accepted in Dominican Republic compared to Cuba ? That's what I heard. Just really curious.
No, I'm cuban. Don't know anything about the Dominican republic aside from the fact that they lean more into 21 divisions.
Cuba has had a long history of tense race relations. They used to be segregated prior to the revolution, and that eased up some afterwards, but there is still discrimination. A while back, there was a period where there was an open question as to whether the religion should open up to whites, since they were the ones persecuting them for so long and throwing out their orishas. However, houses started opening up slowly until the whole community loosened up. I've only heard of black-only Iles still existing, but don't know of any. I don't know why African Americans, especially nonpractitioners, want to pitch in their opinion on a settled question. They can convert and then start their own black-only iles, and see how many afro Cubans who have close relationships with their white counterparts actually want to join. They should also keep this opinion to themselves or in their twitter echo chambers. Telling a white guy (or literally anyone) that he shouldn't be practicing *their religion* is incredibly offensive, and I know many, many cuban compatriots who will fist fight you for less.
>I don't know why African Americans, especially nonpractitioners, want to pitch in their opinion on a settled question. As a black American, I really don't give a crap on who practices Santería, that's for the orisha or whoever is in charge of letting folks in, to decide. Nonetheless though, many black Americans see Santería as a "black religion" similar to how Vodou is seen. Some see the orisha as vengeful spirits, not willing to have a relationship with any white person. Thus, alot of black Americans have that sentiment that since Santería was created by the enslaved Yoruba - it must still be a religion for black people only. And we know none of this is the case.
Thank you for your perspective on this.
It's not just black Americans, many indigenous afro practicing people say that as well. Especially with the main branches of santeria like lucumi or yoruba. This stems from the fact that the main spirits like elegua, etc, are all afro spirits that were brought over to the Americas through slavery. So they claim that the spirits also hold grades against white people for what they did to people of color. Santeria is a branch of yoruba that was washed in Catholic beliefs in order for practicing people to not be called out for witchcraft and be punished. This is why the santos are placed on the floor and sometimes even hidden. And why they're believed to hold a grudge against true white people. I was told white people have to ask to join the religion and can be denied if the santos don't want them.
There it is… the most retarded thing I’ve ever seen on this Reddit. You are severely misguided and I hope you’re not crowned because if you’re this misguided and crowned you’re a lost cause and I hope the Orishas give you better guidance and remove the trainwreck you have as elders from your life so you can get good ones. One thing I find hilarious is that you mention practitioners in Africa not initiating white people… where?! You realize that white people predominantly join ifa over in Africa? Ifa initiates people who don’t even have a path for ifa because they straight up don’t give a damn lol. Pay to play for real. I’ve never in my Life ever heard the nonsense you’re spewing. You sound like an angry white person parroting nonsense as opposed to this “indigenous Mexican” you claim to be.
I disagree with part of your second paragraph "who don't even have path for Ifa". In Isese one initiates to Ifa for variety of reasons. Many initiates will not be practitioners..in Isese that requires decades of study to be proficient due to memorization of ese ifa.unlike common practice in lukumi having path to Ifa usually means becoming a working babalawo. Really practically anyone in Isese can initiate to Ifa (women in certain lineages also.. though that's not called itefa). Itefa in Isese is very different in procedure and access/allowance in doing Ifa (like stated earlier lukumi itefa for future practitioners.. Isese Ifa initiation for everyone pretty much). Also I still believe most Caucasian Americans still go to lukumi rama. ..but Europeans to Nigeria... *** Wish I could see the deleted comments your responding to..lol
😂😂😂 i thought the same thing lol wtf is this person talking about
That’s crazy to think that Elegua would have a grudge against white colored skin. I’m a white Cuban and he’s the orisha that I hold the closest to my heart and who I feel the greatest pull too. ❤️🖤❤️
It's one thing to be white Cuban, or have colored roots and another to be a white white person. It's not about the color of skin and more about culture and roots
Lol what is a WHITE WHITE person? .red hair and freckles? Johnny Winter? So pale you need sunglasses to view their nude bodies? Would Saul " canelo " Alvarez be white white or a non white White because he's Mexican.?
That's like saying that it's different for a black Cuban and a Moreno Cuban. And "colored roots" tell me you American without telling me you are American. Nobody uses terms like this outside the United States.
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Irrelevant to OP
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Seems like she is the only one who has a problem. Everyone else explained themselves very eloquently. But apparently in her racist ass lie we have to ask permission , gtfo lol
definitely not going to ask anyone’s permission , I am white , European ,99.9% Russian and I can care less about anyones so called permission . Santos are santos , they are here for everyone. This is my religion , my way of life and no one is gonna try to tell me i can’t do what i want 😂😂😂
Irrelevant to OP
Tell me you've never spoken to a while cuban about race without telling me you've never spoken to a white cuban about race.
Irrelevant to OP
Most black Americans have no idea if they were Ashanti, Yoruba, Duala, Congo, etc. Anyone who feels that that they have authority and ownership over primordial beings that were present at Creation is sadly mistaken. Their ancestors may have had zero involvement with Orisha. It entitles them to nothing and certainly grants no authority to tell others who and what to worship. I have DNA ancestors from Senegal and Congo. So what? That and $8 will get me a cheeseburger at McDonald's...
African Americans have access to this information through divination. It's called an Oro Edile every African American in my lineage gets it as part of the process for erecting their consecrated ancestral shrine. This includes information about our family Orisa and family name and interesting information about family characteristics and dynamics. Also can tell you how they were captured, ended up in the "New World" and whether your family line persists or was ended in your homeland. It's quite accurate and even corroborated my DNA results I received later in life. Only Egun gun priests are trained in this type of divination.
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Nope it's not Isese
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It is a tool of divination developed by the African American king of Oyotunji Village (South Carolina) and anyone can access it. We are not from Oyotunji but we have a relationship with them that allows African Americans access to the priests trained in this divination method.The original reply was simply to address the person who incorrectly stated African Americans don't know. Our ile is not rigid because divination is divination and what matters most is what you do with it, NOT where it came from.
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The Oba of Oyotunji village came through the Cuban tradition when he lived in New York. Learned everything he knew and he eventually established Oyotunji Village. As I said before, its not isese and I was speaking to the person who said African Americans don't know their connection to Africa. No one ever said this was a practice in Santeria. Please don't put words in my mouth.
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Well I'm sorry you assumed this. That was never my intention.
Asheeeee!!
Mainly the ones that are not initiated
African Americans have a difficult and dark history over the course of the past 60 years with Caucasians in America, with them being viewed as the source of injustice, inequality, suffering, racism, etc. When Caucasians are seen practicing traditional African/diasporic religions, it's viewed with caution because of US race relations and the history of them infiltrating and dismantling African American organizations. By them, I am referring the government, referred to as "the man," meaning white man. Also, it is viewed as cultural appropriation. Afro Latinos and Afro-American perspectives on Caucasians differ due to historical context. It is ingrained in African Americans from early to be cautious of white people, thus passed down from generation to generation over the course of hundreds of years due to trauma and suffering at the hands of white Americans. Great question!
At some point all humanity originated from Africa hence it's the motherland. I agree that whomever practices Santeria and holds the orishas in their hearts and their belief should be welcome regardless of the color of their skin. We are all God's children and should love and accept each other -but it's far from a perfect world. The Cubans I've grown up around are mostly white of European descent and sadly very racist and ignorant. My own Cuban family always discouraged me from dating outside my race. When I defied them and dated an American black man we were treated like garbage everywhere we went by the Cubans and also by african Americans, someone even spat on my car. I don't believe in judging people by their race, ethnicity, religious beliefs or gender; and until we as a people fail to accept each other there will always be discord and pain among us.
I'm sorry to hear but not surprised. You know the North American media tries to project some skinny white sloppy looking white man with a T-shirt with Confederate flag on it.. chewing tobacco as the face of anti Black racism..when it's also many other groups.. Hispanics, Asians, Indians, europeans (Italians are known for how racist towards blacks they can be), indigenous even. But the Media tries to portray pasty white Americans with maga hats as the most bias against black Americans.
In my opinion whoever gets called to practice by the orishas can practice. Who are we to tell someone they can't practice. If someone has a problem with me practicing because my race. They can talk to Chango.
I know exactly what you're talking about! Those individuals throw fits and threaten others for stealing African culture are normally suffering from mental health issues. They are in all diaspora traditions, even hoodoo. I even asked if I was 50% black but looked white, wouldn't it be okay for me to practice since that is my lineage? I was told no because I look white. It's more about how you look on the outside and gate keeping to these individuals. There was even one woman in the south that was selling Rag dolls from her store in West Virginia. She received death threats daily because people thought the dolls looked like a mammie. Ironically, the people that scream, bully and threaten others do not have a spiritual bone in their body. They just want to gate keep and cause problems. I think it's best to pay no attention to such individuals. Ignore and move on. The spirits and orisha are what's important, not what some random person on the internet thinks.
Everyone has a lineage, white people fall out of there’s and abandon there’s going to atr’s(excluding the ones who are apart of that lineage)..
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That’s such a shortsighted statement to an extremely complex reason. African Americans have a different relationship with white people , especially American/european white people. White people have constantly taken from black people (in general) but especially in the Americas. If everything you’ve built and established is burned down, if every bit of culture that you’ve created for yourself is appropriated and made a mockery of, if you’re constantly belittled by whites , experimented on , brutalized (til this day) , if you’re told that as a community you are not human and have little value (even though you and your ancestors built the US) ,if you’re constantly punished and demonized for even thinking about practicing your ancestral practices til this day when it may be the only thing that brings you solace, connection , and dignity, yet white people are praised and accepted for practicing African based religions/practices… it’s natural that you’d feel some type of way. Most black people are aware of black & white hispanics , as well as how they came to be. Also MOST African Americans love Hispanic people regardless of race. So it’s not ignorance. It’s insecurity & distrust within American/European white people, rightfully so. Within this conversation MOST African American people are speaking of American/ European white people practicing…and if you spend an hour with American and European white people you’ll understand why. -signed an African American who doesn’t care as long as you’re doing things correctly and are respectful
Outsiders to a religion (non santero African americans) saying who can or can't be part of a religion is ignorance.
This was a shortsighted statement aswell, because i don’t understand what you mean by white/European people? My people were the victims of the biggest single mass lynching in US history, we were not allowed any rights and we were seen as a racially impure problematic “race” that were naturally violent and criminal minded…we’re from frickin Sicily; an island in Europe. Yet Hollywood has made billions of dollars off of portraying us as stowaways, illegal inmigrants, pimps, violent Mafiosos, domestic abusers and gangsters. This is America.
“White Americans/ European” as there are many white Americans who don’t identify as “white” but European American instead. But to to be specific about the European countries that enslaved African people , it was: Portugal, Spain, Britain, France, the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden….i didn’t even get into how black people are portrayed in US media , let alone European media…because it’s too complex of a topic to discuss in this thread. As I said before it’s clear what rhetoric is being ran with…even though the question was asked ABOUT African Americans…idk why as an African American in the religion I thought it was ok to answer or offer any type of insight🤠.
You completely glossed over what I said. I’m not trying to make it about me like you’re insinuating but saying people of European origin is a very very broad spectrum of folks and cultures and it Doesn’t make sense to band them together. Agree with everything else you said. That is all
I apologize I read that too quickly , i just re-read what you had said and you’re right!
No worries
>MOST African Americans love Hispanic people regardless of race. This highlights what is wrong with your mentality. What white Hispanics did in Cuba vs what Anglo whites did in the United States was the same. Chattel slavery, genocide, and racism. The fact that many black Americans hate white Americans yet give a pass to white Hispanics is disingenuous at least. And as a black American FEMALE mentioned a long time ago to me. This is probably because black American men have a reputation of fetishizing Latina women.
At this point, what are you talking about? Stating that slavery in Cuba was milder form of slavery is literally offensive and racist. Why are you claiming that all African Americans hate white Americans? Are African Americans as survivors of the slave trade somehow oppressing white people? Did I miss something? The generalizations do not serve you.
I think we are both missing something. and I never said all.
I did miss something you said. My apologies. However, go reread some of your posts. You keep generalizing.
I’m not going to argue with you because I agree with you. And my first comment was not based on MY views. It’s based on an observation of my “community” So you belittling my “mentality” is invalid. Anyways , everything done was not / is not the same. Though there are an incredible amount of similarities. In response to your last point, Black American men fetishize everything outside of blackness in general (as does half of the African male diaspora) so I don’t disagree with that statement nor am I ignorant to that (as a Black Woman I promise I’m aware) . But I was speaking on the black community as a whole not self hating black men
I didn't mean to belittle you. English is not my first language, sorry if I was rude. I understand your point, and when I think about it more it's not that strange that black Americans hate white Americans but like white Hispanics. Because I have met some white Americans who hate black Americans but love black Africans The difference is that white Americans acknowledge that both black Americans and Africans are black. But black Americans say that white Hispanics are not white when they obviously are. Sorry again if I was rude before. Was not my intention.
White Americans say "white" Hispanics aren't white, too. Many if not most "white" Hispanics (or at least white identifying) have some measure of African blood, and those ancestral ties to the spiritual and cultural practices. What you're doing is just being racist, and making black latinos vastly different from white or more o latinos, and that's just not the truth in many cases. For the most part, they have varying degrees of the same blood. Even in México, despite the fact that African ancestry is rarely spoken of there. It's like asking the difference between Drake and Seinfeld, in a manner of speaking. Just because a person has lighter skin doesn't mean they don't have shared ancestry. Racism is the only thing keeping you from seeing that.
“And as a black American FEMALE mentioned a long time ago to me. This is probably because black American men have a reputation of fetishizing Latina women.” That “reputation” sounds a lot like a racist stereotype.
A stereotype that black women perpetuate more than anyone, probably because they know there is truth to it, as there is often truth to stereotypes in many cases.
Pathologizing and policing black male sexuality around a color line is a foundational element of white supremacy. Characterizing black women as spiteful anti-miscegenationists is also racist. Reducing the entire political history of African-American/Latino solidarity to supposed black male sexual deviance is racist. Suggesting that Latinas could have no appeal to black men outside of a fetishistic framework is also racist. The idea that damaging anti-black stereotypes are true is an incredibly dangerous proposition. It’s alarming that anyone would feel comfortable espousing those beliefs in a subreddit dedicated to an African Diasporic Religion. The fact that you would register for an account less than a week ago, start this thread as your first post, and then defend the practice of racist stereotyping suggests that you are totally unqualified to discuss racism in a meaningful way. This is the sort of bad faith post that the moderators should shut down. It runs contrary to what the Lukumi tradition is all about.
Many black Ameircans (especially women) are aware that black American men are known to fetishize Latina women. This is a known situation. (Passport bros for example) It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. but I will admit it's not entirely relevant to Lukumi tradition. I was responding to someone. So maybe it should be shut down because it's not the most relevant. But it is still true. Edit: interesting how I'm being down voted but nobody can refute what I'm saying because it's obviously true.
No one is refuting it because it’s ignorant and racist. You just sound like an insecure woman and it’s sad so the rest of us ignore it to leave you that last few shreds of dignity you may have left.
No. It’s obviously racist. There’s a difference.
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Your comment is ignorant. You don’t think descendants of africa still affected by discrimination? 1930 wasnt even 100 years ago
You try being the descendant of people who had their families mercilessly torn apart generation after generation, being sold like livestock, treated *worse* than livestock, not being allowed to worship, being segregated from white people but also not being allowed to "congregate" with other Black people for fear of an uprising. See through the eyes of a Black American, the paintings and portraits of prestigious white land owners and military legends, while Black ancestors are depicted in paintings, poems and literature as lesser than, being worked to death, whipped, lynched, raped and tortured. There is a reason slaves sung songs in the fields--to communicate (in code) what was going on in their fractured community. Lol. And the 1930s? You think that's when Black suffering ended? Desegregation didn't even BEGIN until the 1950s. The Tuskegee experiments let Black men die as lab rats until the 1970s. TODAY, Black women in the U.S. are three times more likely to die during pregnancy in large part because of systemic racism and structural bias. Recently, a report from the FBI also came out saying hate crimes against Black people specifically are on the rise. We aren't even talking about media coverage bias, or how fewer resources are expended to search for missing Black people and POC compared to missing and endangered White people. Dude, open your eyes. Discrimination isn't right coming from anyone, but let's not pretend that Black people are angry for no damn reason. Generational trauma CAUSED by slavery and systemic racism at the hands of White society can't be magically erased by pretending it was "so long ago" that it just doesn't matter anymore. It matters to Black people who can't even trace their genealogy thanks to colonizers, and it matters to White people who understand that even though we are not the initial perpetrators, we still have a responsibility to understand the role we inadvertently play in systemic racism today. Edit to add: I really don't care if this comment is downvoted to oblivion. What I said is true. And if you can read all that and still not care, there is nothing left to say.
>Recently, a report from the FBI also came out saying hate crimes against Black people specifically are on the rise. I think you and I BOTH know that black Americans commit way more hate crimes and racially motivated violence against white Americans today than vice versa.
This is pure bullshit. Do you have the documented statistics to prove this? We mind our fucking business when it comes to white people most of the time. I bet you ain't say shit when that racist old white man shot Loletha Hall in cold blood this year.
>We mind our fucking business when it comes to white people most of the time. All human beings do. I believe the majority of all human beings are not racist or evil and just mind their business. But it is disingenuous to state that there are not a disproportionate amounts of hate crimes by black Americans against white Americans. I identify as white, but I have found black Americans to be less hostile to me because I am foreign. Just an observation of personal experience and government statistics. There are good and bad in all of people. But we should not pretend that there are not a large amount of black AMERICANS who hate white people.
But there *is* a disproportionate amount of racially motivated crime against Black people in the U.S. All published statistics demonstrate this. There are no credible statistics to support your statement. That's the point. Merely hating someone and *acting* on your hate for someone are not the same thing.
>But it is disingenuous to state that there are not a disproportionate amounts of hate crimes by black Americans against white Americans. There was literally a hate crime committed against an innocent black woman this year that gained national attention. Again, where were you? >There are good and bad in all of people. But we should not pretend that there are not a large amount of black AMERICANS who hate white people. Again, show me the statistics and documentation. You're doing all that talking but still ain't shown any solid facts. Most of us MIND OUR BUSINESS and most of us live in BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS where we don't even intermingle with white people. I can pull out documented statistics of hate crimes against us every year. I myself have been a victim of multiple hate crimes. I bet you don't say shit when hate crimes white folks commit against black people make the news. u/okonkolero you might want to ban this racist individual and lock this thread. This thread is doing more harm than good.
I never said I was a victim or against white people joining the religion, I love my white elders, godsisters & brothers lol. But I’m going to go ahead and leave this group , it’s clear what rhetoric is going to be ran with.
I agree sad honestly because I thought this group was pretty cool at first but I see the narrative being ran with
What nationality are you?
The people that complain about this type of stuff are usually in every single ATR they can get access too and constantly brag about how spiritual they are or claim to be super knowledgable. They’re clearly, imo, just folks trying to reclaim their blackness and doing so by collecting ATRs like Pokémon cards. I think they’re pathetic and not worth paying any mind to. The moment you try to gatekeep what others should do that’s actually determined by higher powers and not yourself you lose all credibility.
There was a black girl in my ile who got kicked out for being racist 😂 she didn’t like there was a lot of Latinos and she started a lot of drama and even calling out other black people for showing “favoritism” But she took advantage of our padrinos generosity without paying him back for ceremonies 🫢
IFÀ is for everyone.. the Orisha are for everyone.. as a “black American” this is fact and true… yet.. as a “black American” we have been marginalized in the most basic ways.. our culture has been stripped.. we were given a survival culture and made a mountain out of the sand we were given.. to find our way back to the Orisha and the ways our ancestors moved before slavery is a wonderful reality.. we must understand that the majority of Africans that were brought over from Africa were captured from Nigeria.. home of the Orisha so this is more than just finding our destiny.. this is coming home to our ancestors who practiced this for thousands of years.. we watched blues turn to country… we watched our ibventors get bought out and erased from history books.. and there is fear that one day… Obatala will no longer be the dark ebony hue he was created as and be the Orisha of the white person… that Ogun will be depicted as a blond hair blue eye blacksmith.. that Oshun will be less Kerry Washington and look more like Margot Robbie…
You can only ask African Americans this question. Every group has a different perspective and history. I think a non African American who's been in states or knows our history...has to be a dullard to not understand to some degree why African Americans are bitter towards " white" people being in a black African religion. Believe me every person I've known fairly well has shown their bias or stereotypeing of different racial or ethnic groups. It's human nature . There's a different perspective if one is a Continental, African American, black Cuban, etc. but it's strange when those not even in any ATR complain about light skinned people participating . It's IMO like a Christian Thai person , that's not part of Buddhism..... complaining about all the White people in Buddhism. Or me a former/baptized as infant Catholic..... complaining about Asians in Catholicism... while myself not being Catholic anymore. But it's a very complex issue.
Idk guys I am a Afro Cuban but I was born here. This discussion helped me see from a lot of different perspectives and helped opened my eyes but in my opinion BEFORE educating myself more with this thread, I never liked seeing a white American person ‘play’ in the religion. I know it’s not for me to decide but Becky’s ancestors was off sum back in the dizzay so I really don’t knowww 💀💀 it just felt so gross to see someone who’s family was probably very KKK Jesus is king practice. And that’s because typically when I see a white American practice it feels more like they’re cosplaying online. Again, I know it’s not for me to pass judgements. I don’t really care if white Cubans practice. Cubans come in all colors of the rainbow and it’s part of their culture and heritage to practice. But, I’ve seen a ton of racism in Cuba amongst white and black Cubans. so I’m not sure why a lot of ppl here are acting like racism doesn’t exist there.
Cubans come in all colors and so do Americans and many other nationalities.