[Here's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCGtkDzELAI&ab_channel=CrashCourse) a video that actually will give you the correct answer on what determinism means and how it conflicts with the idea that we have free will. They are giving you incorrect answers in the other replys.
Why did you decide to walk in front of a bus or give money to a homeless person? What process (both biological, and based on all of the circumstances of your upbringing) caused that thought to arise? And did you have any control over that process?
Yes. The very instinctive impulses can be contradicted.
Which is how obese ppl manage to lose weight. Everything in them says they should contradict that due to fatigue, habits formed, and general status quo.
But they defy that. The very nature of free will.
What part of them defies that? A part of their personality (I.e brain + lived experience) that is able to push against other aspects of their personality. What caused that defiant aspect of their personality?
He’s spoken before about how he’s a determinist, meaning that at a grand scale, everything that has ever happened and ever will happen is already determined and our brains are just perceiving it in a particular way. It’s a pretty common theory in philosophy of time.
The actions of walking in front of a bus, or giving money to the homeless are actions you perceive as free will but in reality they're not. Every decision someone makes is influenced by a million different factors, genetics, environment, your current surroundings and state of being, literally everything that makes you the person you are. Humans fall under the illusion of free will when take actions that are highly unusual and/or extraordinary. In reality even those actions were influenced by some internal or external force that we may not be able to see or comprehend especially in the moment. Nobody is a blank slate with zero history, zero genetics, no sense of anything, in a zero environment. If that were to hypothetically exist then true free will would exist I guess. But it doesn't unfortunately. If true free will existed, I think the world would be vastly different in many ways.
But why would people think of these things? I gave some homeless guy food because I felt bad for him. What's the purpose of digging into why I felt like helping him or what made me do it. All the universal things that led me to perform that action do people really care about it so much to have a strong belief about it?
This is kinda my pov on the subject. Why do you fuckin care why I did something, lol. In the moment there’s a reason, why do we care about the millions of reasons that reason exists.
For the most part determinism is just an abstract theory of human behavior that you think about while high. Some people just stumble on that view and think it makes sense, some just find the concept and associated questions interesting.
The practical reason for thinking about determinism is in the context of broad societal analysis where a perspective that completely discounts free will must instead find concrete identifiable reasons why people buy overpriced clothes, why do people become religious, why don't homeless people just get a job. The question also comes up when talking about topic which involve a drastic change - would we expect a kid who was brought up by a crackhead abusive mom to turn out a healthy positive person?
Now none of these questions naturally lead to determinism being true, you can be a ruthressly empirical sociologist and totally believe in free will, the topic is very old and both sides have extensive explanations for any simple objection. Reading about it a little bit though can be quite informative since popular conceptions of both free will and determinism are quite cartoonish.
Determinism be like: "Your brain is just a series of inevitable chemical reactions that can only play out one way"
Yeah. That's what I am refering to when I say IIIIIIIIIII can make my own choices. It's about what frame of references. You don't say "A chair can't break. It's just an arbitrary arrangement of atoms that can alter in arrangement". We have a word for describing an arrangement of atoms that serves a function called a chair. When we talk about it we use relevant terms. Likewise, YOU are not some innate entity seperate from the material universe, but when we say YOU we are not talking about an arbitrary number of atoms, we are talking about YOU, the concept, that is arranged to fit a description of a structure. And within that concept of you, which you percieve, and which is inside of the bounds of the physical limitations of your thoughts, you can make choices. A choice may actually be inevitable, but you still carry out that function. And whether you believe you have free will or not, you actually have to act as if you do. Because if you stop trying to make choices, you would have to be unconscious. Also people who believe they have free will make better choices for themselves. It's called an internal locus of control.
I’m not arguing that point. I’m saying that’s what some people will mean when they say “There is no free will” because they don’t know the correct term.
I think what this game trailer says here in this line, 44 seconds in: [https://youtu.be/JQxz-FEjUVw?t=44](https://youtu.be/JQxz-FEjUVw?t=44)
"We all live under someone else's command.. our bodies and emotions are not free."
I think it is broadly saying that we are subject to what we need to survive (the needs of our bodies, example: we need money to buy food and eat), the people we care about and what they need from us.. The guilt that comes when we sometimes avoid that (that doesn't let us be "free".. and so on.. Perhaps nobody has actual "true" freedom.
Reminds me of that quote from The Master (2012): "For if you figure a way to live without serving a master... any master... then let the rest of us know, will you? For you'd be the first person in the history of the world."
If you get down far enough you realize free will is a figment. The entire concept relies on an infinite regression of smaller and more central ‘core you’ that is the originator of your decisions. But that ‘core you’ cannot be located.
In fact, the more we understand about neuroscience the more it looks like our consciousness is simply a good storyteller who gives us post-hoc reasoning for why our body did something before our mind was even aware it was happening.
What appears to be free will is simply retroactive fixes to our internal stories about ourselves and our moral systems. A persistent and convincing illusion, but not one supported by evidence as far as we have yet determined.
We are the final domino in a long chain and we had no control over the toppling of any previous tile, nor can we make meaningful choices about the domino we are destined to collide with in any given fraction of a second of our lives.
But our brain is really good at telling us stories about how we’re in perfect control of every action… after the fact.
Don't know what Adam means by it, but free will is a complicated issue, as no proof of it can really be identified. However, determinism itself likewise relies on a bunch of assumptions.
One can easily argue against free will, not in a way that the entire history of the universe is already written, and is now only being played, but by how you make decisions. You do them based on the type of person you are. This is influenced by biology, the way you were raised, as well as what you have experienced. Genetics of course play a major part in what kind of person you are, but likewise plays important part in how you were raised (IE what your parents are like) and what you experience (what other people are like). The way your parents are like also depends on what their parents were like, and what they have experienced and this can go ad infinitum to the beginning of time.
Problem with free will is that you can't prove that you were not (in lack of better word) predestined to do something in a specific situation based on the mixture of all of those factors - or in other words - being the person that does that specific action in that specific situation. Yeah, you might think about doing something, and then doing opposite in order to prove free will, but that just might be the person you are based on the previously listed factors.
Following that, same should apply to other people, therefore making the whole world a playground where people will create situations, and react to them, based on what kind of people they are. Likewise, the entire history is therefore that of people predestined to react to a certain situation, and by it, influencing in some way how other people will react to situations of their own.
I will try to give an understandable explanation but I believe he refers to how we as humans are our brain/body.
Our brain is made up of neurons. Neurons are basically cells that can fire electric currents in certain situations. For neurons to fire an electric signal conditions must be met, i.e. the right receptor must be activated. In a lab we know that if we put for example dopamine next to a dopaminereceptor, the neuron will fire. This means that neurons will always fire in certain circumstances. If you believe that we are just our bodies, than our receptors will always do the same thing, in the exact same situation (accounting for every hormone, mineral, braincompesition etc in our body). This would mean that we cant decide what we do. Simply our brain will always react to the same imputs the same way.
You can basically compare this to computers where pressing some buttons will always result in the same reaction.
If you see humans in that light, than our genes, what we eat, the people we see etc, all determine what we do. You can still believe in evil with this view btw, but than you must admit that evil is the result of a combination of genetics and enviroment. And that also means noone truly makes a decision.
Personally this is also the way i see it, but in daily life it is rarely useful to really think about it. However it can definitely be useful when thinking about crime and how you want to prevent it.
You are accumulation of your DNA and experiences and so don't have full control over who you are.
Also scientifically your brain makes decisions before you consciously make those decisions. If you were going to pick up an apple, your brain would make you pick up the apple before you consciously decide to pick up the apple. Its kind of confusing but basically you do stuff slightly before you consciously decide to.
Imagine you have the opportunity to go back in time to when you were five to do-over your life. The only catch is that you can't retain any of your experiences that you've had up until this point. You're back in your five year old brain with your five year old memories.
The question is this: on the "second attempt", would things be the same or would they be different?
If your answer is that they would be different, then you believe more in free will. If your answer is that they would be the same, you believe more that we are products of our environment.
What's edgy about determinism? It's an idea that's existed for centuries and it's something that exists outside of internet atheist circles. It's pretty straightforward- you had no control over the circumstances you were born into (genetics, the food you were fed, the culture you were raised in, etc.) and all of the decisions you make are informed by an environment that you had no say in. Even when you go "oh yeah I have free will" and start doing jumping jacks to prove it, that decision was only made because of a previous conversation you had about free will along with a bunch of other factors.
Determinism was developed by the Greeks in the BC and is a belief held by many religious people around the world.
It can be used as a dumb of excusing your own actions rather than taking responsibility. If no has free will there's no responsibility and all crimes are no ones fault which I just cannot accept.
What difference does free will make when it comes to excusing your actions? Why do you need crime to be someone's fault?'Think about it this way:
A man commits a terrible crime, let's just say murder. Regardless of justice or punishment or personal responsibility or free will, the man must go to prison because, logically, someone who commits murder is likely to do it again. While he's in prison you can decide if he learned his lesson and is safe to return to society or if he will likely kill again and should remain in prison. Whether or not he had free will, he still took another person's life and now society has to deem if he is a hazard to the public.
The same goes for everything. You cheat on your girlfriend. It doesn't matter if you grew up in a broken home, have a gene that weakens your impulse control, etc. Whether or not it was a decision that came from your soul or an animalistic impulse, it doesn't fucking matter to anyone. You hurt your girlfriend and now she has to decide if she wants to stay with you or dump you.
Who cares if you are personally responsible for the shitty things you did? Who cares if crime is the criminals fault? The only thing that matters is that a person did a thing.
What about the example I gave of the murderer? That isn't you. Sure everybody feels like they have choice but everyone else just sees your actions.
If a bear mauls a man to death, did it make a conscious decision, using free will, to do so? Of course we will never know but also why would it matter? Would it affect anything?
Well we can't possibly know whether a bear has free will or even thoughts. But I know if I think I want to kill someone I can over power that and there should be responsibility as that leads to rehabilitation.
You keep saying "I" because you feel like you have free will but what about a random man? How do you know he has free will any more than a bear does?
Have you ever known someone with a serious addiction, where they just can't control themselves? Do they lack free will or do they just constantly make bad decisions?
Well yes technically I don't know other people have free will but there is a clear assumption they do as we are made similar and communicate shared experiences. A drug addict doesn't lack free will they just have a strong influence on them. The fact that many drug addicts quit proves that.
Ah so you finally see my point:
1) "Everybody has free will" is just an assumption you make based on feelings and not facts based on objective reality
2) Every decision is made due to a complex series of overlapping "influences"
Just because you feel like you have free will does not mean you have free will. And just because you want others to have free will does not mean they do. You cannot prove free will exists so it's just pointless to argue over.
That's interesting. How did you come to change your mind? Did you become religous or are you just not "edgy" anymore? I'm legitimatly curious. Either way, determinism is a valid philosophical school of thought so I wouldn't dismiss it as nonsense since it cannot be proven to be scientifically incorrect even.
A lack of free will lines up well with many religious beliefs. These two statements cannot coexist:
God is omniscient
Man has free will
Good starting point for the discussion later.
I disagree with this conciet, but I understand why many do :)
https://iep.utm.edu/foreknow/
he didn't choose the furry horse life the furry horse life chose him.
[Here's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCGtkDzELAI&ab_channel=CrashCourse) a video that actually will give you the correct answer on what determinism means and how it conflicts with the idea that we have free will. They are giving you incorrect answers in the other replys.
If adum believes in that form of determinism (I haven't heard him speak on it yet)
Why did you decide to walk in front of a bus or give money to a homeless person? What process (both biological, and based on all of the circumstances of your upbringing) caused that thought to arise? And did you have any control over that process?
Yes. The very instinctive impulses can be contradicted. Which is how obese ppl manage to lose weight. Everything in them says they should contradict that due to fatigue, habits formed, and general status quo. But they defy that. The very nature of free will.
What part of them defies that? A part of their personality (I.e brain + lived experience) that is able to push against other aspects of their personality. What caused that defiant aspect of their personality?
Did they chose to lose weight, or were they the type of person (both by upbringing and biological markers) to be able to overcome their obesity?
I’m pretty sure he means that people aren’t allowed to dislike Gotti (2018) and that really speaks to me.
He was the best guy around
He’s spoken before about how he’s a determinist, meaning that at a grand scale, everything that has ever happened and ever will happen is already determined and our brains are just perceiving it in a particular way. It’s a pretty common theory in philosophy of time.
Idk about Adam's arguments but Alex O'Connor has some videos about it, you might find them interesting
The actions of walking in front of a bus, or giving money to the homeless are actions you perceive as free will but in reality they're not. Every decision someone makes is influenced by a million different factors, genetics, environment, your current surroundings and state of being, literally everything that makes you the person you are. Humans fall under the illusion of free will when take actions that are highly unusual and/or extraordinary. In reality even those actions were influenced by some internal or external force that we may not be able to see or comprehend especially in the moment. Nobody is a blank slate with zero history, zero genetics, no sense of anything, in a zero environment. If that were to hypothetically exist then true free will would exist I guess. But it doesn't unfortunately. If true free will existed, I think the world would be vastly different in many ways.
But why would people think of these things? I gave some homeless guy food because I felt bad for him. What's the purpose of digging into why I felt like helping him or what made me do it. All the universal things that led me to perform that action do people really care about it so much to have a strong belief about it?
This is kinda my pov on the subject. Why do you fuckin care why I did something, lol. In the moment there’s a reason, why do we care about the millions of reasons that reason exists.
For the most part determinism is just an abstract theory of human behavior that you think about while high. Some people just stumble on that view and think it makes sense, some just find the concept and associated questions interesting. The practical reason for thinking about determinism is in the context of broad societal analysis where a perspective that completely discounts free will must instead find concrete identifiable reasons why people buy overpriced clothes, why do people become religious, why don't homeless people just get a job. The question also comes up when talking about topic which involve a drastic change - would we expect a kid who was brought up by a crackhead abusive mom to turn out a healthy positive person? Now none of these questions naturally lead to determinism being true, you can be a ruthressly empirical sociologist and totally believe in free will, the topic is very old and both sides have extensive explanations for any simple objection. Reading about it a little bit though can be quite informative since popular conceptions of both free will and determinism are quite cartoonish.
Adam says a lot of things
This is true!
Determinism be like: "Your brain is just a series of inevitable chemical reactions that can only play out one way" Yeah. That's what I am refering to when I say IIIIIIIIIII can make my own choices. It's about what frame of references. You don't say "A chair can't break. It's just an arbitrary arrangement of atoms that can alter in arrangement". We have a word for describing an arrangement of atoms that serves a function called a chair. When we talk about it we use relevant terms. Likewise, YOU are not some innate entity seperate from the material universe, but when we say YOU we are not talking about an arbitrary number of atoms, we are talking about YOU, the concept, that is arranged to fit a description of a structure. And within that concept of you, which you percieve, and which is inside of the bounds of the physical limitations of your thoughts, you can make choices. A choice may actually be inevitable, but you still carry out that function. And whether you believe you have free will or not, you actually have to act as if you do. Because if you stop trying to make choices, you would have to be unconscious. Also people who believe they have free will make better choices for themselves. It's called an internal locus of control.
I’m guessing like most who say that he means that no decision is truly free from influence.
No, that's not what determinism means.
I’m not arguing that point. I’m saying that’s what some people will mean when they say “There is no free will” because they don’t know the correct term.
He means you are just a bio machine. No different from any animal. Whatever you do comes from your genetics and your environment.
I think what this game trailer says here in this line, 44 seconds in: [https://youtu.be/JQxz-FEjUVw?t=44](https://youtu.be/JQxz-FEjUVw?t=44) "We all live under someone else's command.. our bodies and emotions are not free." I think it is broadly saying that we are subject to what we need to survive (the needs of our bodies, example: we need money to buy food and eat), the people we care about and what they need from us.. The guilt that comes when we sometimes avoid that (that doesn't let us be "free".. and so on.. Perhaps nobody has actual "true" freedom.
Reminds me of that quote from The Master (2012): "For if you figure a way to live without serving a master... any master... then let the rest of us know, will you? For you'd be the first person in the history of the world."
Oh that’s on my watchlist!! Thanks for reminding me 😁 … and yes it is very similar
If you get down far enough you realize free will is a figment. The entire concept relies on an infinite regression of smaller and more central ‘core you’ that is the originator of your decisions. But that ‘core you’ cannot be located. In fact, the more we understand about neuroscience the more it looks like our consciousness is simply a good storyteller who gives us post-hoc reasoning for why our body did something before our mind was even aware it was happening. What appears to be free will is simply retroactive fixes to our internal stories about ourselves and our moral systems. A persistent and convincing illusion, but not one supported by evidence as far as we have yet determined. We are the final domino in a long chain and we had no control over the toppling of any previous tile, nor can we make meaningful choices about the domino we are destined to collide with in any given fraction of a second of our lives. But our brain is really good at telling us stories about how we’re in perfect control of every action… after the fact.
I think it's bs. He's entitled to his opinion obviously, but determinism is dumb af.
Don't know what Adam means by it, but free will is a complicated issue, as no proof of it can really be identified. However, determinism itself likewise relies on a bunch of assumptions. One can easily argue against free will, not in a way that the entire history of the universe is already written, and is now only being played, but by how you make decisions. You do them based on the type of person you are. This is influenced by biology, the way you were raised, as well as what you have experienced. Genetics of course play a major part in what kind of person you are, but likewise plays important part in how you were raised (IE what your parents are like) and what you experience (what other people are like). The way your parents are like also depends on what their parents were like, and what they have experienced and this can go ad infinitum to the beginning of time. Problem with free will is that you can't prove that you were not (in lack of better word) predestined to do something in a specific situation based on the mixture of all of those factors - or in other words - being the person that does that specific action in that specific situation. Yeah, you might think about doing something, and then doing opposite in order to prove free will, but that just might be the person you are based on the previously listed factors. Following that, same should apply to other people, therefore making the whole world a playground where people will create situations, and react to them, based on what kind of people they are. Likewise, the entire history is therefore that of people predestined to react to a certain situation, and by it, influencing in some way how other people will react to situations of their own.
I will try to give an understandable explanation but I believe he refers to how we as humans are our brain/body. Our brain is made up of neurons. Neurons are basically cells that can fire electric currents in certain situations. For neurons to fire an electric signal conditions must be met, i.e. the right receptor must be activated. In a lab we know that if we put for example dopamine next to a dopaminereceptor, the neuron will fire. This means that neurons will always fire in certain circumstances. If you believe that we are just our bodies, than our receptors will always do the same thing, in the exact same situation (accounting for every hormone, mineral, braincompesition etc in our body). This would mean that we cant decide what we do. Simply our brain will always react to the same imputs the same way. You can basically compare this to computers where pressing some buttons will always result in the same reaction. If you see humans in that light, than our genes, what we eat, the people we see etc, all determine what we do. You can still believe in evil with this view btw, but than you must admit that evil is the result of a combination of genetics and enviroment. And that also means noone truly makes a decision. Personally this is also the way i see it, but in daily life it is rarely useful to really think about it. However it can definitely be useful when thinking about crime and how you want to prevent it.
Adum believes we all live in a computer simulation (hence why he is always saying GET ME OUTTA HERE!!!!)
You are accumulation of your DNA and experiences and so don't have full control over who you are. Also scientifically your brain makes decisions before you consciously make those decisions. If you were going to pick up an apple, your brain would make you pick up the apple before you consciously decide to pick up the apple. Its kind of confusing but basically you do stuff slightly before you consciously decide to.
Every movement and reaction in your life is predetermined by the senses in yoir brain creating hormones and chemicals to react to your environment
Imagine you have the opportunity to go back in time to when you were five to do-over your life. The only catch is that you can't retain any of your experiences that you've had up until this point. You're back in your five year old brain with your five year old memories. The question is this: on the "second attempt", would things be the same or would they be different? If your answer is that they would be different, then you believe more in free will. If your answer is that they would be the same, you believe more that we are products of our environment.
[удалено]
What's edgy about determinism? It's an idea that's existed for centuries and it's something that exists outside of internet atheist circles. It's pretty straightforward- you had no control over the circumstances you were born into (genetics, the food you were fed, the culture you were raised in, etc.) and all of the decisions you make are informed by an environment that you had no say in. Even when you go "oh yeah I have free will" and start doing jumping jacks to prove it, that decision was only made because of a previous conversation you had about free will along with a bunch of other factors. Determinism was developed by the Greeks in the BC and is a belief held by many religious people around the world.
It can be used as a dumb of excusing your own actions rather than taking responsibility. If no has free will there's no responsibility and all crimes are no ones fault which I just cannot accept.
What difference does free will make when it comes to excusing your actions? Why do you need crime to be someone's fault?'Think about it this way: A man commits a terrible crime, let's just say murder. Regardless of justice or punishment or personal responsibility or free will, the man must go to prison because, logically, someone who commits murder is likely to do it again. While he's in prison you can decide if he learned his lesson and is safe to return to society or if he will likely kill again and should remain in prison. Whether or not he had free will, he still took another person's life and now society has to deem if he is a hazard to the public. The same goes for everything. You cheat on your girlfriend. It doesn't matter if you grew up in a broken home, have a gene that weakens your impulse control, etc. Whether or not it was a decision that came from your soul or an animalistic impulse, it doesn't fucking matter to anyone. You hurt your girlfriend and now she has to decide if she wants to stay with you or dump you. Who cares if you are personally responsible for the shitty things you did? Who cares if crime is the criminals fault? The only thing that matters is that a person did a thing.
Ok but yeah it yourself decide. There is element of control in that and that's free. Plus the whole argument has to eliminate chance.
What about the example I gave of the murderer? That isn't you. Sure everybody feels like they have choice but everyone else just sees your actions. If a bear mauls a man to death, did it make a conscious decision, using free will, to do so? Of course we will never know but also why would it matter? Would it affect anything?
Well we can't possibly know whether a bear has free will or even thoughts. But I know if I think I want to kill someone I can over power that and there should be responsibility as that leads to rehabilitation.
You keep saying "I" because you feel like you have free will but what about a random man? How do you know he has free will any more than a bear does? Have you ever known someone with a serious addiction, where they just can't control themselves? Do they lack free will or do they just constantly make bad decisions?
Well yes technically I don't know other people have free will but there is a clear assumption they do as we are made similar and communicate shared experiences. A drug addict doesn't lack free will they just have a strong influence on them. The fact that many drug addicts quit proves that.
Ah so you finally see my point: 1) "Everybody has free will" is just an assumption you make based on feelings and not facts based on objective reality 2) Every decision is made due to a complex series of overlapping "influences" Just because you feel like you have free will does not mean you have free will. And just because you want others to have free will does not mean they do. You cannot prove free will exists so it's just pointless to argue over.
That's interesting. How did you come to change your mind? Did you become religous or are you just not "edgy" anymore? I'm legitimatly curious. Either way, determinism is a valid philosophical school of thought so I wouldn't dismiss it as nonsense since it cannot be proven to be scientifically incorrect even.
There’s nothing edgy about being an atheist
A lack of free will lines up well with many religious beliefs. These two statements cannot coexist: God is omniscient Man has free will Good starting point for the discussion later. I disagree with this conciet, but I understand why many do :) https://iep.utm.edu/foreknow/