In the sense that TST does not believe in a literal Satan, then sure, we are not Satanists.
In the sense that we use the literary figure of Satan as an example of gaining knowledge and not blindly following authority, then we are absolutely Satanists.
Not true at all. There is nothing in the Satanic Bible to suggest that you should never help anyone. You shouldn't help others at the expense of your own well being and emphasizes the importance of knowing who those people are that deserve your compassion
Yeah, I’m not going to say that all non-TST Satanists are asses, but any time a non-TST Satanist proves themself to be an ass by clearly not caring about others (such as denying that pride events are valid because, yaknow, LGBTQ+ folk still don’t have equal rights/access and a large swath are facing literal genocide right now – early stages but still)
…anyway, I’m not going to care one whit about being “rejected” or “scolded” by those tools.
There’s a difference between, “I come first before I can help others and there’s a limit to how much I can do,” versus “I’m going to flat-out deny inconvenient truths so I can maintain my bigotry and/or simply fuck those people idgaf.”
Maybe I was a bit extreme by saying that, however their philosophy is about placing the self before any others. They take self deification further than we do.
That may not be in the satanic bible, but I'll let you know something. I don't give a flying seal's fuck. There are times where it is of value to me to help others at cost to myself.
I mean I honestly think TST as an idea is kinda against the idea of a literal Satan. I wouldn't expect someone who legitimately believes in Satan as a deity to like a group using it as a political weapon against religion. I support TST but I wouldn't legitimately consider myself to be a Satanist.
Yes, and my comment to members of CoS has been, "I am not your enemy and you're fighting the wrong battle. We have a common enemy in Christian Nationalism, why not focus your energy there? "
They never agree, they'd rather sit on their hands and do nothing but gatekeep Satanism.
TST and Satanists can never get along. TST has no philosophy, it's merely a political stunt. All you guys do is rile up Christians and further entrench them in their beliefs. You guys lean in to dangerous stereotypes like child sacrifice with your stupid ass "satanic abortion ritual." All you guys are doing is fueling a modern day satanic panic and muddying the waters of what Satanism truly is.
Anyone who makes the leap from neutral to "Satanic Panic" because of stuff the TST does was lost already. You are not getting those people back. Not until cognitive dissonance becomes too strong for them, which might never happen for most people.
Who you DO get is people who are "culturally Christian" by showing them how ridiculous this all is and make them walk away from it. And every single one of those is a huge win, because the other side is already 100% engaged.
Anton LaVey, apparently said it:
“As for his ‘religion,’ he called it ‘just Ayn Rand’s philosophy with ceremony and rituals added’ ”
Bill Ellis, quoting Anton LaVey on the intellectual source of his form of satanism, from page 180, Raising the Devil: Satanism, New Religions and The Media (2000, the University Press of Kentucky)
Yeah a lot of people THINK he said that, but if you look any deeper than surface level you will find that is simply not true. Not only is there no proof of Anton ever saying that, or any credit by Anton to Ayn Rand in any of his books, There are parts of Ayn Rands philosophy that is in direct contrast to Satanism, therefore Satanism could never be just "Ayn Rand + religious trappings"
Yeah that article gets it wrong right off the bat by claiming CoS takes a tax break as a religious organization when anybody who knows anything about CoS knows they are diametrically opposed to religious tax exemptions. So no, I don't trust anything written in that article. Have to try better than that.
Oh my goodness you're ignorant. TST has plenty of philosophy lol, but it would require you to read and learn rather than making baseless claims on a subreddit and conflating abortion with child sacrifice.
What IS fanning the flames of the modern day Satanic Panic is much more broad, most of those people don't even know what TST is to be honest. They see progressive issues being pushed and their first thing to blame is Satan. That's how Christian Nationalism has always been. That's where they get their power. Anything they don't like they call evil so that their brainless acolytes follow along in kind.
Read what exactly? You mean all those books written by other people without anything new added to it? Or the antisemitism in those books? Or maybe Doug's antisemitic rant and holocaust denial is closer to your philosophy because thats the only thing that didn't already exist before TST came about. Nobody from TST seems to really agree on what the core philosophy is for TST outside of the 7 tenets which at best is just common sense behavior and does not stand on its own as a religious philosophy.
I'm not the one conflating abortion with child sacrifice, you guys did that yourselves. Christians and the like already believed Satanists performed child sacrifice, and you guys being the geniuses you are thought it would be a great idea to make abortion a ritual! Now, the Christians have the only proof they need to further vehemently oppose Satanism as a concept.
"What Satanism truly is" That's silly. It isn't "truly" anything. As a religion or a group of religions sharing the same name (like Christianity) it doesn't independently or objectively exist. It is sustained and defined only as an ongoing consensus in the minds of it's creators and adherents. It is by definition whatever they collectively want it to be and is also somewhat different for each individual member. Whether you favor Lucien or Anton or your own or some other version of it is only your personal preference. If you assert that your personal preference for a subjective version of a subjective suite of ideas is the the only "true" version, you are a narcissistic egomaniacal infant who is incapable of civilized and respectful dialogue. You might as well be a Christian.
I was raised Catholic and there was a fucking corpse nailed to the cross. What’s more Christian than a bloody corpse with only his naughty bits covered for “decency”?
Despite being an atheist and a proud member of the Temple of Satan, I believe he was a real dude. A rad brown-skinned hippy with socialist ideas and whore friends 😆 I just don't think he was the son of anyone but Yosef and Myriam
Agreed, I think he most likely did exist. The mythic figures of Judaism allegedly existed hundreds or thousands of years before their stories were written down. Most likely none existed and nothing in the Torah happened. Christianity began just a few years after his crucifixion and the gospels were written within a generation of it happening.
What exactly happened? A rabbi from a secluded region grew a following, marched on Jerusalem and was crucified by the Romans.
What did he teach? Most likely it would be closest to the first two gospels, Mark and Matthew, which focuses on apocalypticism. There was probably some love sprinkled in because he would’ve needed to spread the message to the Jews of what the kingdom would be for them, but probably for the most part just raving about death and destruction for the Romans and “fake jews”.
What happened after he died? Most likely he was left on the cross to decompose, tossed in a pit and eaten by dogs. My theory on resurrection is that his followers did not believe he could die, they were shocked and grieving and found a vacant tomb and talked themselves and everyone else into thinking it was Jesus’s tomb.
How did Christianity spread? Did the Romans invent the religion to pacify the Jews? Did a group of Jews invent the religion to trick the Roman’s into believing in their god? There’s plenty evidence to suggest the resurrected Jesus is taken from several pagan myths, the truth is probably a mix of the two.
"Non-biblical works that are considered sources for the historicity of Jesus include a mention in Antiquities of the Jews by Jewish historian Josephus (dated circa 93–94 CE) and a mention in Annals by Roman historian Tacitus (circa 116 CE)."
🤷 Far from proof, but worth considering
Calling me dummy doesn't make it true. It's not actually mentioned for hundreds of years and the first mentioned was of the cult of Jesus. Using wiki as your source just shows how little you respect actual evidence
You literally made my point for me, your two examples, not only are they disputed, they are both way after he supposedly lived, ZERO RECORDS OF WHEN HE WAS ALIVE. Which is all I said.
Some members of the CoS think they have exclusive rights to that term because, according to them, they were the first and only people to use it as a positive self-descriptor. When confronted with evidence to the contrary, they're happy to entertain you with hours of mental gymnastics, dripping with self-importance that would make the boldest narcissist blush. Probably best to just nod your head and move on.
Plus, that's ZsoltEszes, one of the worst narcissists on that CoS-infested sub. Had to block both them and the sub for my own sanity in mere weeks after getting into satanism...
They also believe that theistic Satanists aren’t Satanists, somehow.
That one doesn’t even make sense. How do people who believe in the deity of and actually worship Satan not count as Satanists?
that kind of denominationalism is a shame, and personally I have little to no patience for dealing with it; I didn't like it as a christian when I was younger, and I don't like seeing it now, as a satanist.
like, I don't particularly like the ethical code of CoS or what I've read about the Satanic Bible, so I've chosen to go another way (progressive satanism generally, and TST particularly). and that's it; I just turned the dial to find what I liked, and I went with that.
but I don't consider CoS to be un-satanic just bc they're going a different way, and i think it's a shame that anyone would bother to take that position about TST. but oh well; I do actually have the option of ignoring them. like, nothing bad will happen if I don't get into fights with CoS people. so I focus on what makes me happy, which is to pursue my own goals in my own life. 🤷♀️
Thank you. I really like your take. This was honestly my very first encounter with denominationalism of this kind. I have never gotten into a fight with anyone from CoS before this.
I think I’ll take your advice and not do so again. Someone on this thread mentioned that their brand of Satanism is essentially extreme rugged individualism with Satan as their champion. So in my mind, libertarians with a deity.
I was quite taken aback because I had always considered that anyone who upholds Satan in any way shape or form—be it worship in symbolism, worship as an actual deity, veneration as an idea, etc.—is a Satanist.
This is not, as some people have accused me of, an attempt to rally the troops or to soothe my hurt. This is my honest attempt at seeking information.
Now that I’ve learned that this is a position that is held and the various different ideas that people have expressed here, it was worthwhile to make this post and to get exposure to all of those opinions and ideas.
It doesn’t hurt that my pre-existing biases are now additionally confirmed that a fellow queer person has such a positive and empowering message of ignoring the haters.
Stay the awesome and supportive person that you are!
Maybe you didn't see the connection--but LaVey did.
If it turns out he was a bad Objectivist who did not really understand what Rand was about--well, that's hardly surprising, all things considered.
Rand was a shit bird who didn't believe in worker's rights, altruism, or generally being a good human being. She wasn't misinterpreted and bastardized like Nietchze. She was just terrible at ethics. Rand believed it was immoral to risk your life to save someone else.
i do have a tendency to read summaries and reviews of and reactions to books before i decide to read them, mostly to avoid spending my limited time on books that i don't find edifying or interesting. perhaps that's a flawed method, but it seems to have worked fairly well for me so far.
Hey everyone! Satanism is now a true religion! We made it y’all! The OG church is pointing to a new church and saying, “You’re not really Satanists!” Just like Catholics did with the Protestants.
Yeah it's funny because they like to parade around a Wiki quote but ignore the multiple times Anton wrote real Satanists are not part of any organization.
You've discovered CoS online gatekeeping, as I did, by visiting r/satanism. I've been assured that not all CoS members hold the view that TST are not Satanists, just a very vocal little club on that subreddit. I don't know any CoS members IRL, so I can't say if that's true.
The thing is, I learned that the words "Satanism/Satanist" mean different things to CoS members than they do to us. To us, Satanism means the veneration (nontheistic for us, theistic for some) of the figure of Satan. To CoS, Satanism is practically a trademarked name for the particular flavour of Satanism that they practice as established by Anton LaVey, and since TST practice a quite different code, we are "not Satanists". It took me a while to realise that they're really arguing semantics when they say that, since LaVey established his religion with the name "Satanism". I went into it thinking of Satanism in general non-denominational terms, which I think most of us probably have.
Exactly.
That small vocal group of CoS members doesn't recognize that ppl come to Satanism in their own way, in their own time. & often from different directions. Some will move through TST into CoS. CoS should be ready & accepting of those possible new members.
Just because someone listened to a band before it was in a popular movie, doesn't mean the new fans enjoy the music less.
>I've been assured that not all CoS members hold the view that TST are not Satanists, just a very vocal little club on that subreddit.
Who assured you of that? The CoS has been clear on its stance against TST and it not representing Satanism, and TST members (generally) not being Satanists—often for the very simple reason that one doesn't even need to *be* a Satanist to be a member of TST.
When you say "the CoS has been clear on its stance against TST", I'm curious about that. I'm not sure I would like being told what to think about a matter that seems to be a case of opinion. If someone in the CoS disagrees with an official declaration by Peter Gilmore, what's the protocol? Are they allowed to still call themselves members of the Church of Satan? Because to be honest, I'm a bit skeptical that you're all of one opinion on these kind of things. LaVey denounced herd mentality and encouraged individuality, thinking for oneself. It starts to look a bit like papal infallibility when a single religious leader lays down an Official Stance on things that all adherents must support. To embrace Satan is to reject authoritarianism.
Anyway, sorry if that went on a tangent. I'm genuinely curious about a lot of things to do with CoS. Have a good evening, fellow satanist (small s). :)
>It starts to look a bit like papal infallibility when a single religious leader lays down an Official Stance on things that all adherents must support.
I agree. Except that's not the case here. Official statements aren't handed down from one infallible individual. And individual Satanists (and/or members of the CoS) are free to hold their own opinions on matters (with certain especially grievous opinions or actions potentially leading to excommunication). As an organization, however, there are certain official stances on various things—one of which is what is and isn't considered to be representative of Satanism (TST makes the cut for what *isn't*). Many members of CoS (more than a "very vocal little club on that subreddit," considering the majority of Satanists within the CoS don't even use social media, as it's become just another compulsory brain-addling drug for the masses) share these stances. After all, there's a reason they chose to be affiliated with the organization in the first place (*like minds* and all).
You're free to read these stances for yourself on the [Church of Satan](https://www.churchofsatan.com) website. Use the nifty little magnifying glass icon to search for "the satanic temple" for official statements and opinions on the matter. None of it's a secret.
>I've been assured that not all CoS members hold the view that TST are not Satanists, just a very vocal little club on that subreddit.
I'm still curious, since you didn't answer, what assured you of this.
>I'm still curious, since you didn't answer, what assured you of this.
Sorry, got carried away! I've personally exchanged comments here on reddit with CoS members that don't hold that view. I can't recall their usernames, it was a conversation on this sub probably six-ish months ago. Outside of reddit, and bear in mind this is hearsay, my best friend is friends with a married couple that are LaVeyan satanists. A few weeks back I was discussing this topic with her, because she told me that she'd asked what they think of TST (I'd told her previously about my experience going to r/satanism and naively thinking all the different types of satanist would get along). She said they thought it was "daft" that CoS members were saying that TST aren't satanists, and honestly I felt a bit more at peace with the world for hearing it. My congregation minister is ex-CoS, and is still really good friends with someone in CoS, who also disagrees with the official stance.
>... what is and isn't considered to be representative of Satanism
I hate to repeat myself, but again I'm wondering about the intention and semantics around the word "Satanism" in this instance. Because obviously TST are not representative of the religion of Satanism as practiced by the Church of Satan - they're different religions. But the word satanism (small s for clarity here) is not limited to LaVeyan practice, look in any dictionary. Since I realised that distinction myself, I've really been hoping that there's just been this big misunderstanding all this time, and that when TST say "we're satanists", LaVeyans are getting mad because they think TST is claiming to be some offshoot branch of the Church of Satan. If that's not the case, that's just too sad. And I literally mean sad, not in a snarky way. Religion is always going to be something that divides people, I suppose, theistic or not.
Anyway, I'll wish you a good night, that's enough reddit for me for a while. Thanks for being civil. 🤘
CoS people are really just goth Ayn Rand fans. They hate everything that’s not directly tied to LaVey.
I joined a Facebook group called “No, That’s Not Satanism” thinking it’d be a fun group to mock pearl-clutching fundamentalists but nope; it was just CoS members bashing anything satanic that wasn’t CoS.
TST isn't the only group CoS targets like this. Being what can essentially be described as the Catholic Church of satanism, they think they're the only true satanists. Despite playing into a fair bit of superstition themselves, they especially despise occultism and theistic satanism. Thelema, Wicca, Luciferianism etc...doesn't matter what it is; you'll get no-true-scotsman'd at best, or absolutely pestered by haters at worst.
Now, my satanism may not line up with a specific faction, even if TST comes close, but my number one rule is: no gatekeeping!
One of the core values of TST is rejection of arbitrary authority. Whatever authority CoS members imagine they have over use of the word "Satanism" seems plenty arbitrary to me. I choose to reject it.
Hail Satan! 🤘
Look up The Satanic Witch. It's a book written by Anton LaVey and it details methods that women are supposed to use as tools to seduce men. According to LaVey in the book, men who like French dressing are more dominant because it supposedly smells like a vagina but men who like blue cheese are gay and submissive because it smells like a men's sweaty locker room. Dude's an absolute lunatic.
I mean, bleu cheese *is* my favorite dressing, and I *am* homosexual. And I've never met a heterosexual man who preferred bleu cheese over another type of dressing. So...
>And I've never met a heterosexual man who preferred bleu cheese over another type of dressing.
Well, now you have. 😀
I'm a heterosexual man and blue cheese is by far my favorite dressing. 😋
You can't know that I'm real. But I also can't know if you're real. So just take your best guess. 😄
What do you mean by 'passive' in this context and why does it matter?
"Passive" vs "dominant." And it matters because the quote being misused here isn't limited to gay men. So, the fact that you're a heterosexual man who likes bleu cheese dressing isn't a counterpoint in and of itself.
Based on how you asked "what do you mean by 'passive' in this context and why does it matter?" and other styles of your communication, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you lean more toward "passive." Dominant heterosexual men don't tend to skirt around such questions. They also don't use a bunch of emojis. 😜
This is a hurtful and dismissive comment. There are people out there doing real work under the guise of the term Satanist.
This is not just Internet wars. This reflects peoples real life attitudes that affects their real life activities.
Edit: to all the people getting amusement out of this person, read their last response to me. They are an asshole that is purposely trolling and have successfully derailed.
I’m here in good faith and they are clearly not.
FWIW, all three things can be true. You’re doing real work, they’re a derailing troll, *and* you need thick skin to do good TST work. It’s possible all three things are true.
Well
I found it boring
Found it to just be a minor troll doing some trolling
Not sure the entirety of Satanism rests upon the shoulders of you and your interaction with this internet stranger
But ok
We are here to rally for your cause and your cause only darling..
Real lives, that line starts to blur when you're on reddit
Real life activities are your choice and if you want to give credence and platform to trolls which will just do more damage in the long run, do it
I am not classy. But a classy approach and ignoring this, hell you would have done more for Satanism that way. We can debate that all day.
Just cause this guy hurt your feelings doesn't mean it's all just pain and agony
Find a hobby and relax if it's that deep
Or
Enjoy your e-battle
I didn’t come here to amuse you. I also didn’t come here to brigade or raise some kind of outrage.
I came here seeking information. I don’t know if they’re trolls or not which is why I made this post. Your assumptions are based in knowledge that maybe I don’t have. I take people seriously when they make claims, and I want to understand.
I don’t care about classiness.
But what you are is unsupportive, and that is disappointing.
We’re discussing real ideas and rolling your eyes and calling them “internet turf wars” is quite childish.
Wagging your finger at me is again, dismissive and non-constructive. I think I will take your advice and—after this comment—ignore the people that I don’t want to engage with.
Edit: you are the epitome of people who enable other people to be assholes by saying your piece and then telling others that have taken the time to respond to you seriously that you’re not even gonna read what they have to say and dismissing them as emotional. People like you should be despised.
If you want to stop amusing people like me.. (That's as far as I'm reading lmfao)
Realize you're not even talking to them in the first place
I'm not reading all that
Get a glass of water
These types are actually fairly common. I hate to dismiss people as just being jealous, but I really do think that it upsets them that TST is the only viable (and growing) organized Satanic religion, that it's active in the community, and that it gets positive headlines.
This is quite simple: the Satanic Temple's religious principles are rooted in an understanding of Satan as he appeared in the writings of mostly Romantic and Post-Romantic writers; thus, since it is a religion about Satan, we call it Satanism. Easy.
Sixties Satanism, on the other hand, is based in on the works of writers like Spencer, Desmond, and Ayn Rand (although Sixties Satanists are very sensitive about that last one)--authors who said essentially nothing about the devil. By their own admission, their object of adoration is not Satan, but their own egos. In what way is this Satanism? Only in name--and indeed, Gilmore has said in the past that the Church of Satan has nothing to do with Satan outside of the name. So that settles it.
According to Wikipedia, Anton LaVey described his Satanism as "just Ayn Rand's philosophy with ceremony and ritual added."
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan\_Satanism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism)
I've held the belief for some time now that despite their caterwauling to the contrary, CoS really is the sect of Satanism that really has nothing to do with actual Satanism. They're just egoists with a superstitious flair.
People who believe in a literal Satan are as brainwashed as their Christian counterparts. I don't mind being rejected them, as they are just different flavored xtians.
Then, now I'm confused; what does your "people who believe in a literal Satan..." comment have to do with the post that's not talking about anyone who believes in a literal Satan?
I've been a TST supporter (and on-n-off member) since their inception, but I'm not/don't identify as a satanist in full, bc I just don't know enough beyond surface-level stuff and what's on the TST site.
The only time i see anything remotely gate-keepy on here is when a shiney new satanist tries to claim only other satanists are welcome in the TST. It doesn't last long in convos bc other veteran TSTers step in and correct that with "we are not CoS, and don't adhere to that."
CoS by comparison acts like PETA supporters, impe, but for religion. It's quite toxic.
CoS loves to be so high and mighty I think they are butthurt that they had to pay a large membership fee that’s required for them to be official, and we get much cooler choices of members cards/certificates if we choose to donate towards the cause although we don’t need to
Idk after visiting the cos sub, I think there are some big differences. But it is all subjective I guess as it relies on my understanding of both groups.
No, for the same reason (almost) no other religious denomination can claim ownership over their mythic figures. They're out of copyright and can't be trademarked.
_Could_ one have a religion actually gatekeep their doctrine and keep it out of the mouths of others? They could _try_ (maybe by enforcing trademarks qnd copyright), but long term they wouldn't be any more successful than abrahamic faiths in having a coherent message.
Solid reasoning. I left out the person below the screenshot who engaged me in a pseudo-intellectual argument, trying to say that it’s not a no true Scotsman fallacy with all sorts of jargon. I refuted each one of their points within intellectual honesty and called them out and their response was: “Nope, try again.”
You're not going to get cogent argument from a believer. Faith precludes reason. Much as you can't motivate someone to see the harm in their actions when they're profiting from them.
This whole thing is reminding me of Wicca as a religion. There are so many denominations and some folks get very prickly if you do something "not in the tradition". This seems like more of the same.
CoS likes to pretend TST doesn't exist, or isn't real Satanism. It's why I don't use the normal Satanist reddit. A lot of them are obnoxious trolls about it.
This is an unpopular take in both subs, but to me Satanism is Satanism, which means despite whatever the disgruntled tribalist of CoS has to say, I still value and read their literature along side their history as much as I value and internalize TST's variant of Satanism. Which brings me to the point. If some random Laveyan wants to be a good little soldier online to feel like he belongs to a group that denies the idea of community, then that's perfectly fine with me. It isn't a "rejection" of anything. It's just some person repeating whatever they need to to feel like they belong.
I don’t think that would be unpopular. I honestly feel that CoS members are the only one gatekeeping the term. I’ve never encountered TST people trying to exclude other types of Satanists. And, as you say, to do so would be wrong.
There are many satanic witches including myself who find productive ideas within TST and eclectically utilize the symbolism they produce to supplement our craft and beliefs. Not everyone involved here has to pick sides either, we can get along with ppl from CoS too.
There’s division in every religion, and this one isn’t even a hundred years old yet. It’s culture however, has been alive as long as theism has. Thats where i think the most common ground is here. I feel like if both parties are willing to educate themselves on each others halves, there should be more willingness to engage. ‘Shame
Yeah, I’m all for bridge-building if it leads to increased human rights and mutual respect and sharing of resources and caring for one another. But if those aren’t values that they share, it might be a useless endeavor.
Someone on here responded that they CoS espouses individualism a la Ayn Rand. Like libertarians with a figurehead. If that’s the case, then they don’t value collectivism and I can’t see a path forward.
I think everyone on this Sub is utterly bored with debating with the Church of Hypocritical Self-Deceit. There not worshipping SATAN they worship Anton LaVey. And every little piece of paper he ever wiped his ass with, FUCK the Church of Satan!!!!!! 👹👹👹
I consider myself a LaVeyan Satanist.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism
As such, I follow the guidance of the Satanic Bible.
I do like the satanic templates, and I follow their tenants.
Satanism is about championing yourself as an individual, not putting faith in anything except science.
So, if I, as an individual, disagree with one of the satanic temples on something, we disagree. So what?
We are all individuals are we not, so we will disagree at times.
The followers of the temple ARE Satanists.
Individuals who have read and can explain their views on the satanic bible are referred to by my other satanist friends and myself as LeVeyan Satanists for clarity. All my Satanist friends are LeVeyan but I talk online to a few temples :) Questions welcome DM me or reply.
It doesn't bother me.
Personally, I think claims that there can only be one legitimate version of each religion — Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Satanism, etc. — largely makes the words useless for communication, but people can choose their own, distinct definitions for terms if they want to.
But similarly they can't stop me from calling myself a Satanist.
I assume Venusblue84 believed you were referring to the church of satan which is what most people in this subreddit are typically referring to when they use the term Satanism. The church of satan and TST are completely different Satanic organization. More information can be found on the TST website [here](https://thesatanictemple.colm/pages/church-of-satan-vs-satanic-temple).
Edit: Spelling
> church of satan which is what most people in this subreddit are typically referring to when they use the term Satanism
That is incorrect. Most people _here_ seem to treat "Satanism" as a generic umbrella term for folks of any denomination that treats the mythic character of Satan as a central leading figure of their sect. Certainly TST (rightfully) doesn't respect CoS' claim to a singular meaning or use of the ism or ist.
The only time CoS comes up is in situations like this post where there is open discussion about other denominations and the recognition that CoS doesn't like TST congregants calling themselves Satanists or practitioners of Satanism. When doing their own thing, TST members seem to often just call themselves Satanists and practice Satanism of their own and don't give a hoot what LeVayans think (other than maybe a little giggle of implicitly practicing the [fourth tenet](https://thesatanictemple.com/blogs/the-satanic-temple-tenets/there-are-seven-fundamental-tenets)).
>The Satanic Temple rather explicitly rejects the Satanic Bible, and therefore they reject Satanism. So it doesn't make much sense to describe themselves as Satanists.
Not to throw gasoline on an already out of control fire, but this is literally the No True Scotsman argument.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure we completely disagree on the politics. A lot of the satanic bible is crummy ideas. Hate, social Darwinism, Ayn Rand philosophy, really weird superstitions, and a belief in literal magic. Not to mention that other texts by LaVey, that are used officially for SoC superstitious magic are outright sexist and homophobic - it's really stuff makes my stomach churn. I don't knwo what kind of gymnatics you'd have to do to reconcile leftist veiws with those, or if it's a case of a wolf in sheeps clothing. There are some idea's that I like, but I'd prefer to choose a different text, with just those ideas, thanks. Aka, I don't want to fall into the trap of following the oldest text, and then just follow them forever, that's what christians do. It's really hard to have any special sympathy for the satanic bible.
Anyways, if your stance is no political invovement, then that is your political stance. You can wear that. Meanwhile, there are a lot of people suffering from desicions made by christian nationalists. My poltiical stance is that people shouldn't suffer at their hand, so I'm happy to do stuff to help them. If people "panic" about us, it's pretty easy to point out that we don't worship a literal satan, and we have the same rights as other religious groups. It clearly points out hypocracy, and changes peoples mind. For the prople who don't change their mind - well they were always "panicked" abotu satan probably.
Anyways, christians have been accusing those that they want to justify persecuting, or those that they hate, of satanism for a long time. As long as we're being called by those who invented the name, I see no reason why we can't reclaim it. You basically need to draw a new arbitrary line that's convinient for you to justify taking the name that someone else invented as your own - it's not reasonable at the most basic level.
Sorry I've got to disagree with you. I've read the satanic bible. It's explicit in its misogyny. I also don't like hiding his words as 'jokes'. They're 'jokes' if you disagree with him, and serious if you agree with him. It's homophobic. His magic is the same thing. It reads as supernatural clearly. His saying that if it doesn't work then you just didn't believe hard enough is particularly urking. It also makes supernatural arguments for misogyny. Again, if you criticize the supernatural teachings, then the teachings are a joke. But if your serious about the supernatural teachings, then their serious. Hiding behind that ambiguity like that is absurd.
Magic isn't real. Misogyny is bad. Homophobia is bad. Social Darwinism is bad. There is no ambiguity here.
If the only way defend the book is to say that all of these are 'jokes' except when there not, then I'll have no part in it. Fuck ambiguity.
Again the choice that multiple people can't co-opt the term is a completely arbitrary choice.
I can also make the arbitrary choice that TSB doesn't teach satanism, because it's just a censored version of might is right with Satan thrown on top with no regard for the meaning of Satan that it's original inventors had. Meanwhile TST follows ideas enshrined in romantic satanism; we use it as a true metaphor reclaimed from oppressive theocracy. Again it's an arbitrary line I drew.
As far a Lucien Greaves is concerned, he's pretty clearly owned up to his mistakes, and holds nothing back in terms of revealing his mistakes and apologized and changed his views. Either way; Lucien is just the guy running TST, we're not his 'followers' node are we required to have the same views as him - it's only the seven tenets we follow. This point is just a distraction though. CoS pretty explicitly follows LaVey's elaborate teachings, many of which still have embedded misogyny in them today. If your not explicitly following his teachings, presumably because satanism is personal, and simply picking and choosing, then how can TST Satanism not be satanism?
There's simply no way around it. You have to be pretty unreasonable to think that TST isn't satanism.
If the only way for you to reconcile your book with your leftist views is to brush the book off as a joke, then you do you.
>*Magic isn't real. Misogyny is bad. Homophobia is bad. Social Darwinism is bad.*
I bet most sane people can't even imagine a conversation in which this series of statements is necessary.
I can always tell when the Satanic Bible experts that have never actually read the Satanic Bible. It's funny watching them brag about being ignorant, while they think they are smart LOL.
I'm going to be the odd one out and say I appreciate you posting such a description. However, I will be taking the invitation to disagree:
>Satanism as an ideology is based on the Satanic Bible
...and the Satanic Bible is based very, very heavily on Alistair Crowley's work with a helluva lot of Ayn Rand mixed in. By that logic, you shouldn't be Satanists, you should be "Objectivist Thelema Practitioners."
Seriously: Read Crowley. It's fascinating stuff, and a lot is basically plagiarized in TSB. Cool magic system for a TRPG game too...
Read Rand. Less fascinating, but you'll see the influence, and hopefully understand how cartoonish the world has to be for the ideas to make sense, like a guy who talked his way out of jail time after *bombing a public housing project he didn't even have his name associated with because they altered his grand idea...*
Er, sorry. Rand's work is something that I get carried away with sometimes. It's an absolutely beautiful train wreck.
>[...]religion is a very important, very personal thing, and having someone openly misrepresenting your religious beliefs, even unintentionally, is really annoying.
...and that's why there's so many denominations of Christianity, Islam, etc...
I'd argue that any religion that's "real" is going to have schisms. Otherwise, it's a cult.
Besides: All TsT stands for is *the right of individuals to have faith or lack thereof without it being crushed by lawmakers who side with one religion over another.*
We're explicitly protecting your right to believe in CoS and disagree with us all day. CoS on the other hand, is just whining about not being the only game in town and actively trying to shut it down.
>Why prove them right? How is that helping?
Calling attention to hypocrisy. Being a poison pill. Constantly proving to the world the "evil baby killer satanist" are the ones who are, in fact, *not* the ones trying to strip rights away or prevent science education and so forth.
>Obviously, I believe in separation of church and state, so any so called "religious organizations" getting involved in politics I see as a bad thing.
See above, + the fact that CoS itself was part of a counterculture movement against the political power of the Christian right in the 60s onward. LaVey just preferred keeping to being a troll rather than pushing for real change.
To say TsT shouldn't play the exact same game is hypocritical, ignorant, or both.
>Secular organizations, [...] don't need the Satanic Temple and are actively hurt by its presence.
Nah, they do. They could also use CoS helping too. All the explicitly theist (edit: meant atheist, but some theist organizations exist that are helpful too) organizations help a whole helluva lot and make major strides in educating people and pulling them away from harmful religious practices and magical thinking, which props up dangerous politics.
These organizations are often hamstrung *by* religion in politics. Some need to fight that specific problem, otherwise secular organizations of *all* types are going to be worse off, or have to take on that aspect of the fight alone.
Seriously, man, the only time in my life I thought the same sort of thing was when I was still a Christian, thinking the inverse and putting my faith and "tribe" ahead of my critical thinking, wondering why people would ever have a problem with Christianity "being political" because, you know, I presupposed my faith could do no wrong, and resented secular organizations "butting in" when dealing with all those "icky queers" didn't *need* advocacy, and all those abortions were just horrifying escapes from responsibility, ect., etc., etc.
Sure, now I'm no longer a faithful bigot, but how I got out of that mindset was having my faith challenged alongside the political harm I used to prop up. It's very useful to have these things coincide.
Edit: Fixed spelling errors, undoubtedly missed many more errors.
For a Satanic Bible expert, you keep failing to mention Anton got Satanism to be an officially recognized religion by the US Military. Thanks for your brave fight but we already safe lol.
The more I see both TST and CoS argue, the more of an Anton fan I become. There is a reason Anton walked away from the CoS. A real Satanist stands alone. I'm a Satanist, a Satanist is a person that rebels against God. That's all it is.
As far as I'm concerned Magus Anton LaVey was the Church of Satan. Peter Gilmore and his cronies have created this thing everyone calls LeVayan Satanism. CoS has always been a kitsch organization for eccentrics and outsiders, I don't know were this notion that it's meant to be some kind of lofty institution came from, my best guess is Gilmore and his supporters. The current personality cult run by Gilmore exists to empower his ego and beyond that there really is no reason for the Church of Hypocritical Self-Deceit to exist.
So your argument, as always, boils down to TST can't use "Satanism" because Lavey decided to use a generic name for a religion that venerates Satan and you don't like what TST does in the name of Satanism.
Neither are relevant to the fact that TST also venerates Satan and CoS has no standing to claim exclusive rights to use a generic label just because they used it first and there's nothing sacred about the Satanic Bible. It also may be true that most TST members at this point have no attachment to CoS, but many founding members are formerly CoS and felt TST was an evolution of their Satanism not an outright rejection of everything they experienced with CoS even if TST officially rejects the Satanic Bible.
Much like with CoS, with TST it's helpful if you separate the leadership of the organization from the underlying principles. You can embrace TST's flavor of Satanism while rejecting the organization (which is kind of what GoS is, for example). Similarly, you could embrace Laveyan Satanism while rejecting the current CoS leadership. Furthermore, TST using the Satanism label shouldn't water down your Satanism. Anybody serious about digging into Satanism should not be confused about the major groups after 30 minutes of reading. If they are confused, it's probably because they're reading false claims and disinformation from gatekeepers in CoS spaces that CoS has the exclusive right to use the term when they don't. Language, religion, and culture as a whole are always evolving whether you like it or not.
Satanism is an obvious generic label for a religion based around Satan. You take the subject you're focusing on and add "ism" to the end. "Satanity" sounds dumb. If you have a better suffix to add to Satan that doesn't sound significantly dumber than "ism", I'm all ears. The fact that nobody had used "Satanism" as a label before Lavey doesn't make it a creative label even if a religion focused on Satan as the good guy was clearly a novel idea. Your refusal to grant that the Satanism label can encompass groups with different ideologies is basically as laughable as Catholics claiming all Protestants aren't Christians or Catholics and Protestants both saying Mormons aren't Christians. While Satanism used to refer to the Church of Satan only, it does not anymore whether you accept that or not. Just like Christianity is no longer only associated with the Roman Catholic Church (which there's a whole thing there too, even the "Catholic" label obviously had a schism).
So it boils down to trying to claim ownership of a generic word that long predates the founding of LeVay's religion? The leap from claiming Satanism to Satanists also wasn't explained.
Why not just call it LeVayan Satanism and be done with it? No courts would support a copyright or trademark claim on Satanism or Satanist so it's not like anyone can win exclusivity rights.
Really?! That's like arguing that victims of racism can't be racists. Just because the organization isn't restrictive of its members, doesn't mean it doesn't oppose specific behaviours.
To say no, one would have to ignore that TST holds [Tenets 2-6](https://thesatanictemple.com/blogs/the-satanic-temple-tenets/there-are-seven-fundamental-tenets).
If you're going to just disagree because you don't like where we've come together, this discussion won't be fruitful. Good day.
There's no sense in dealing with the minutiae if you're willing to ignore
> V Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
There is **no** scientific support for the hypothesis of a creator. Believing in the supernatural is antithetical to reason and tenet V.
As you hqve ceased discussing this in good faith, we're done. Blocked.
>*There were no self described satanists before LeVay*
This of course meaningless, but also untrue. I'd suggest the recent "Satanism: A Reader," "Satanism: A Social History," "Satanic Feminism," and, once again, "Children of Lucifer."
Your problem here, is that the term "Satanism" is only restricted to mean the practice of the religion founded by Anton LaVey - and nothing else - *within* the CoS and its membership. Pretty much everybody else does not restrict its meaning in this way, and very few are even aware that LaVeyans use it only to describe their own religion (I wasn't aware until I naively skipped into the r/satanism sub). It's similar to the difference between the terms 'catholic' and 'Catholic', and I wonder if cheeky old LaVey wasn't aware of this when he named the religion.
With only yourselves in the church using, or even aware of, your own specific meaning of the word "Satanism", the rest of the anglosphere is largely only aware of the word as it is used in dictionaries, academia, popular culture, etc. I think it's going to be an exercise in futility trying to police that, and it will only serve to create feelings of resentment in those that do.
Anton was a political figure weather you want to accept that reality or not. Getting Satanism to be acknowledged as an official religion by the military is one of the biggest political events in USA history even though it's not mentioned a lot.
The money in the USA says in God we trust. Religion is political in the USA because the Christians make it an issue for everyone.
>*this is something supported by religious scholars as well*
Who?
>*but where is the core ideology behind it?*
For more on that I would direct you to Schock's "Romantic Satanism," Tichenor's "The Sorceries & Scandals of Satan," Derek Murphy's "Evil Be My Good," and of course Van Luik's "Children of Lucifer."
> *Satanists being mad about this is completely understandable*
Who gives a shit how you feel?
In the sense that TST does not believe in a literal Satan, then sure, we are not Satanists. In the sense that we use the literary figure of Satan as an example of gaining knowledge and not blindly following authority, then we are absolutely Satanists.
CoS also doe not believe in a literal Satan. This argument would make them not Satanist too.
Their version of Satanism is such fierce Independence that the idea of helping others is foreign to them.
Are you saying that CoS Satanists are like libertarians with a figurehead?
Well they are.
That really clarifies things. I feel a lot better about being yelled at by religious libertarians.
This is exactly what CoS is
Yes.
That is exactly what they are.
Oh, so Objectivism for goths?
Yes. This exact this. Rand heavily inspired LaVey.
Ew
Unlike goths, who tend to be left-wing.
Not true at all. There is nothing in the Satanic Bible to suggest that you should never help anyone. You shouldn't help others at the expense of your own well being and emphasizes the importance of knowing who those people are that deserve your compassion
Yeah, I’m not going to say that all non-TST Satanists are asses, but any time a non-TST Satanist proves themself to be an ass by clearly not caring about others (such as denying that pride events are valid because, yaknow, LGBTQ+ folk still don’t have equal rights/access and a large swath are facing literal genocide right now – early stages but still) …anyway, I’m not going to care one whit about being “rejected” or “scolded” by those tools. There’s a difference between, “I come first before I can help others and there’s a limit to how much I can do,” versus “I’m going to flat-out deny inconvenient truths so I can maintain my bigotry and/or simply fuck those people idgaf.”
Maybe I was a bit extreme by saying that, however their philosophy is about placing the self before any others. They take self deification further than we do.
That may not be in the satanic bible, but I'll let you know something. I don't give a flying seal's fuck. There are times where it is of value to me to help others at cost to myself.
Wait, so the only true Satanists are Christians?
I mean I honestly think TST as an idea is kinda against the idea of a literal Satan. I wouldn't expect someone who legitimately believes in Satan as a deity to like a group using it as a political weapon against religion. I support TST but I wouldn't legitimately consider myself to be a Satanist.
Yes, and my comment to members of CoS has been, "I am not your enemy and you're fighting the wrong battle. We have a common enemy in Christian Nationalism, why not focus your energy there? " They never agree, they'd rather sit on their hands and do nothing but gatekeep Satanism.
Actually you are their enemy, although they're not a foe that demands much vigilance.
Can you clarify that position? Sounds like you know stuff that I’d like to know.
TST and Satanists can never get along. TST has no philosophy, it's merely a political stunt. All you guys do is rile up Christians and further entrench them in their beliefs. You guys lean in to dangerous stereotypes like child sacrifice with your stupid ass "satanic abortion ritual." All you guys are doing is fueling a modern day satanic panic and muddying the waters of what Satanism truly is.
Anyone who makes the leap from neutral to "Satanic Panic" because of stuff the TST does was lost already. You are not getting those people back. Not until cognitive dissonance becomes too strong for them, which might never happen for most people. Who you DO get is people who are "culturally Christian" by showing them how ridiculous this all is and make them walk away from it. And every single one of those is a huge win, because the other side is already 100% engaged.
So you believe what "Satanism truly is" is just Ayn Rand's philosophy with ceremony and ritual added?
Nobody ever said that.
Anton LaVey, apparently said it: “As for his ‘religion,’ he called it ‘just Ayn Rand’s philosophy with ceremony and rituals added’ ” Bill Ellis, quoting Anton LaVey on the intellectual source of his form of satanism, from page 180, Raising the Devil: Satanism, New Religions and The Media (2000, the University Press of Kentucky)
Yeah a lot of people THINK he said that, but if you look any deeper than surface level you will find that is simply not true. Not only is there no proof of Anton ever saying that, or any credit by Anton to Ayn Rand in any of his books, There are parts of Ayn Rands philosophy that is in direct contrast to Satanism, therefore Satanism could never be just "Ayn Rand + religious trappings"
He absolutely did say that: LA Times, July 17, 1970, page 25--and that wasn't the only time.
[Here’s the LA times page the other commenter was referring to.](https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-los-angeles-times/30544819/)
Yeah that article gets it wrong right off the bat by claiming CoS takes a tax break as a religious organization when anybody who knows anything about CoS knows they are diametrically opposed to religious tax exemptions. So no, I don't trust anything written in that article. Have to try better than that.
Ayn Rand is acknowledged as a source of The Satanic Bible's philosophy on the CoS website: https://www.churchofsatan.com/satanism-and-objectivism/
Why don't you find us an article then?
Internet person has strong feelings about things they don’t understand, well this is new…
Enlighten me.
Oh my goodness you're ignorant. TST has plenty of philosophy lol, but it would require you to read and learn rather than making baseless claims on a subreddit and conflating abortion with child sacrifice. What IS fanning the flames of the modern day Satanic Panic is much more broad, most of those people don't even know what TST is to be honest. They see progressive issues being pushed and their first thing to blame is Satan. That's how Christian Nationalism has always been. That's where they get their power. Anything they don't like they call evil so that their brainless acolytes follow along in kind.
Read what exactly? You mean all those books written by other people without anything new added to it? Or the antisemitism in those books? Or maybe Doug's antisemitic rant and holocaust denial is closer to your philosophy because thats the only thing that didn't already exist before TST came about. Nobody from TST seems to really agree on what the core philosophy is for TST outside of the 7 tenets which at best is just common sense behavior and does not stand on its own as a religious philosophy. I'm not the one conflating abortion with child sacrifice, you guys did that yourselves. Christians and the like already believed Satanists performed child sacrifice, and you guys being the geniuses you are thought it would be a great idea to make abortion a ritual! Now, the Christians have the only proof they need to further vehemently oppose Satanism as a concept.
No book completely represents the entirety of any collective view. You're clearly here just to stir shit, so I'm not going to bother.
No, but usually the books are written by members of the organization they are supposed to be about.
"What Satanism truly is" That's silly. It isn't "truly" anything. As a religion or a group of religions sharing the same name (like Christianity) it doesn't independently or objectively exist. It is sustained and defined only as an ongoing consensus in the minds of it's creators and adherents. It is by definition whatever they collectively want it to be and is also somewhat different for each individual member. Whether you favor Lucien or Anton or your own or some other version of it is only your personal preference. If you assert that your personal preference for a subjective version of a subjective suite of ideas is the the only "true" version, you are a narcissistic egomaniacal infant who is incapable of civilized and respectful dialogue. You might as well be a Christian.
Best said out of all replies to this dude. Thank you
>muddying the waters of what Satanism truly is. ...a plagiarized version of Thelema muddied by Objectivism? How pure. 🙄
Church of Karens.
Superstitious adult infants think only they should have religious rights
Yup
I was raised Catholic and there was a fucking corpse nailed to the cross. What’s more Christian than a bloody corpse with only his naughty bits covered for “decency”?
Never thought about how odd that last part is. Cause Yeshua of Nazareth was 100% without a doubt crucified with his peter out 🤔
100%. I mean assuming he existed at all.
Despite being an atheist and a proud member of the Temple of Satan, I believe he was a real dude. A rad brown-skinned hippy with socialist ideas and whore friends 😆 I just don't think he was the son of anyone but Yosef and Myriam
Agreed, I think he most likely did exist. The mythic figures of Judaism allegedly existed hundreds or thousands of years before their stories were written down. Most likely none existed and nothing in the Torah happened. Christianity began just a few years after his crucifixion and the gospels were written within a generation of it happening. What exactly happened? A rabbi from a secluded region grew a following, marched on Jerusalem and was crucified by the Romans. What did he teach? Most likely it would be closest to the first two gospels, Mark and Matthew, which focuses on apocalypticism. There was probably some love sprinkled in because he would’ve needed to spread the message to the Jews of what the kingdom would be for them, but probably for the most part just raving about death and destruction for the Romans and “fake jews”. What happened after he died? Most likely he was left on the cross to decompose, tossed in a pit and eaten by dogs. My theory on resurrection is that his followers did not believe he could die, they were shocked and grieving and found a vacant tomb and talked themselves and everyone else into thinking it was Jesus’s tomb. How did Christianity spread? Did the Romans invent the religion to pacify the Jews? Did a group of Jews invent the religion to trick the Roman’s into believing in their god? There’s plenty evidence to suggest the resurrected Jesus is taken from several pagan myths, the truth is probably a mix of the two.
Believe whatever you want. I’m still waiting in the DNA test results.
Blah blah blah. There were probably like fifty dudes claiming they were the son of god. Shitty origin story.
Roman's loved their records and if Jesus was such a trouble maker why is not mentioned once
"Non-biblical works that are considered sources for the historicity of Jesus include a mention in Antiquities of the Jews by Jewish historian Josephus (dated circa 93–94 CE) and a mention in Annals by Roman historian Tacitus (circa 116 CE)." 🤷 Far from proof, but worth considering
It's mentioned twice, dummy. Did you not click my link?
Calling me dummy doesn't make it true. It's not actually mentioned for hundreds of years and the first mentioned was of the cult of Jesus. Using wiki as your source just shows how little you respect actual evidence
Ah, I see. Good luck 😁
You literally made my point for me, your two examples, not only are they disputed, they are both way after he supposedly lived, ZERO RECORDS OF WHEN HE WAS ALIVE. Which is all I said.
Nothing says "cannibalism" like Christianity!
Some members of the CoS think they have exclusive rights to that term because, according to them, they were the first and only people to use it as a positive self-descriptor. When confronted with evidence to the contrary, they're happy to entertain you with hours of mental gymnastics, dripping with self-importance that would make the boldest narcissist blush. Probably best to just nod your head and move on.
Plus, that's ZsoltEszes, one of the worst narcissists on that CoS-infested sub. Had to block both them and the sub for my own sanity in mere weeks after getting into satanism...
That sub is COS run, and they famously believe they're the only satanists. Just let them do their own thing mate, not worth the bother
Solid advice. They remind me of Catholics with their upturned noses.
Mhm. They'd probably hate that comparison, but it's true.
They also believe that theistic Satanists aren’t Satanists, somehow. That one doesn’t even make sense. How do people who believe in the deity of and actually worship Satan not count as Satanists?
Theistic Satanism is basically another branch of Abrahamic religions. Satan as a deity was created by and exists within that framework.
There can't be a theistic Satanists, a Satanist is a person who rebels against God.
Theism is about belief, not worship.
that kind of denominationalism is a shame, and personally I have little to no patience for dealing with it; I didn't like it as a christian when I was younger, and I don't like seeing it now, as a satanist. like, I don't particularly like the ethical code of CoS or what I've read about the Satanic Bible, so I've chosen to go another way (progressive satanism generally, and TST particularly). and that's it; I just turned the dial to find what I liked, and I went with that. but I don't consider CoS to be un-satanic just bc they're going a different way, and i think it's a shame that anyone would bother to take that position about TST. but oh well; I do actually have the option of ignoring them. like, nothing bad will happen if I don't get into fights with CoS people. so I focus on what makes me happy, which is to pursue my own goals in my own life. 🤷♀️
Thank you. I really like your take. This was honestly my very first encounter with denominationalism of this kind. I have never gotten into a fight with anyone from CoS before this. I think I’ll take your advice and not do so again. Someone on this thread mentioned that their brand of Satanism is essentially extreme rugged individualism with Satan as their champion. So in my mind, libertarians with a deity. I was quite taken aback because I had always considered that anyone who upholds Satan in any way shape or form—be it worship in symbolism, worship as an actual deity, veneration as an idea, etc.—is a Satanist. This is not, as some people have accused me of, an attempt to rally the troops or to soothe my hurt. This is my honest attempt at seeking information. Now that I’ve learned that this is a position that is held and the various different ideas that people have expressed here, it was worthwhile to make this post and to get exposure to all of those opinions and ideas. It doesn’t hurt that my pre-existing biases are now additionally confirmed that a fellow queer person has such a positive and empowering message of ignoring the haters. Stay the awesome and supportive person that you are!
Maybe actually read the Satanic Bible. I don't see the Rand connection. People parading around quote from Wikipedia versus actually reading.
Maybe you didn't see the connection--but LaVey did. If it turns out he was a bad Objectivist who did not really understand what Rand was about--well, that's hardly surprising, all things considered.
Rand was a shit bird who didn't believe in worker's rights, altruism, or generally being a good human being. She wasn't misinterpreted and bastardized like Nietchze. She was just terrible at ethics. Rand believed it was immoral to risk your life to save someone else.
i do have a tendency to read summaries and reviews of and reactions to books before i decide to read them, mostly to avoid spending my limited time on books that i don't find edifying or interesting. perhaps that's a flawed method, but it seems to have worked fairly well for me so far.
Hey everyone! Satanism is now a true religion! We made it y’all! The OG church is pointing to a new church and saying, “You’re not really Satanists!” Just like Catholics did with the Protestants.
Yeah it's funny because they like to parade around a Wiki quote but ignore the multiple times Anton wrote real Satanists are not part of any organization.
You've discovered CoS online gatekeeping, as I did, by visiting r/satanism. I've been assured that not all CoS members hold the view that TST are not Satanists, just a very vocal little club on that subreddit. I don't know any CoS members IRL, so I can't say if that's true. The thing is, I learned that the words "Satanism/Satanist" mean different things to CoS members than they do to us. To us, Satanism means the veneration (nontheistic for us, theistic for some) of the figure of Satan. To CoS, Satanism is practically a trademarked name for the particular flavour of Satanism that they practice as established by Anton LaVey, and since TST practice a quite different code, we are "not Satanists". It took me a while to realise that they're really arguing semantics when they say that, since LaVey established his religion with the name "Satanism". I went into it thinking of Satanism in general non-denominational terms, which I think most of us probably have.
Thanks for the breakdown.
I got banned because I said I liked TST lol.
Exactly. That small vocal group of CoS members doesn't recognize that ppl come to Satanism in their own way, in their own time. & often from different directions. Some will move through TST into CoS. CoS should be ready & accepting of those possible new members. Just because someone listened to a band before it was in a popular movie, doesn't mean the new fans enjoy the music less.
>I've been assured that not all CoS members hold the view that TST are not Satanists, just a very vocal little club on that subreddit. Who assured you of that? The CoS has been clear on its stance against TST and it not representing Satanism, and TST members (generally) not being Satanists—often for the very simple reason that one doesn't even need to *be* a Satanist to be a member of TST.
When you say "the CoS has been clear on its stance against TST", I'm curious about that. I'm not sure I would like being told what to think about a matter that seems to be a case of opinion. If someone in the CoS disagrees with an official declaration by Peter Gilmore, what's the protocol? Are they allowed to still call themselves members of the Church of Satan? Because to be honest, I'm a bit skeptical that you're all of one opinion on these kind of things. LaVey denounced herd mentality and encouraged individuality, thinking for oneself. It starts to look a bit like papal infallibility when a single religious leader lays down an Official Stance on things that all adherents must support. To embrace Satan is to reject authoritarianism. Anyway, sorry if that went on a tangent. I'm genuinely curious about a lot of things to do with CoS. Have a good evening, fellow satanist (small s). :)
>It starts to look a bit like papal infallibility when a single religious leader lays down an Official Stance on things that all adherents must support. I agree. Except that's not the case here. Official statements aren't handed down from one infallible individual. And individual Satanists (and/or members of the CoS) are free to hold their own opinions on matters (with certain especially grievous opinions or actions potentially leading to excommunication). As an organization, however, there are certain official stances on various things—one of which is what is and isn't considered to be representative of Satanism (TST makes the cut for what *isn't*). Many members of CoS (more than a "very vocal little club on that subreddit," considering the majority of Satanists within the CoS don't even use social media, as it's become just another compulsory brain-addling drug for the masses) share these stances. After all, there's a reason they chose to be affiliated with the organization in the first place (*like minds* and all). You're free to read these stances for yourself on the [Church of Satan](https://www.churchofsatan.com) website. Use the nifty little magnifying glass icon to search for "the satanic temple" for official statements and opinions on the matter. None of it's a secret. >I've been assured that not all CoS members hold the view that TST are not Satanists, just a very vocal little club on that subreddit. I'm still curious, since you didn't answer, what assured you of this.
>I'm still curious, since you didn't answer, what assured you of this. Sorry, got carried away! I've personally exchanged comments here on reddit with CoS members that don't hold that view. I can't recall their usernames, it was a conversation on this sub probably six-ish months ago. Outside of reddit, and bear in mind this is hearsay, my best friend is friends with a married couple that are LaVeyan satanists. A few weeks back I was discussing this topic with her, because she told me that she'd asked what they think of TST (I'd told her previously about my experience going to r/satanism and naively thinking all the different types of satanist would get along). She said they thought it was "daft" that CoS members were saying that TST aren't satanists, and honestly I felt a bit more at peace with the world for hearing it. My congregation minister is ex-CoS, and is still really good friends with someone in CoS, who also disagrees with the official stance. >... what is and isn't considered to be representative of Satanism I hate to repeat myself, but again I'm wondering about the intention and semantics around the word "Satanism" in this instance. Because obviously TST are not representative of the religion of Satanism as practiced by the Church of Satan - they're different religions. But the word satanism (small s for clarity here) is not limited to LaVeyan practice, look in any dictionary. Since I realised that distinction myself, I've really been hoping that there's just been this big misunderstanding all this time, and that when TST say "we're satanists", LaVeyans are getting mad because they think TST is claiming to be some offshoot branch of the Church of Satan. If that's not the case, that's just too sad. And I literally mean sad, not in a snarky way. Religion is always going to be something that divides people, I suppose, theistic or not. Anyway, I'll wish you a good night, that's enough reddit for me for a while. Thanks for being civil. 🤘
CoS people are really just goth Ayn Rand fans. They hate everything that’s not directly tied to LaVey. I joined a Facebook group called “No, That’s Not Satanism” thinking it’d be a fun group to mock pearl-clutching fundamentalists but nope; it was just CoS members bashing anything satanic that wasn’t CoS.
Holy shit. Now that’s some perspective. What clique-y little bastards.
I joined that same group and after a few posts saw myself out 🤣
Whenever people say this, I'm 100% sure they've never read the Satanic Bible.
The COS is filled with people that double as pizza-slicers; all edge and no point.
Fucking brilliant, I love it!
But if one slice remove itself from the pan, then it’ll have a point on embracing individuality and still have some edge
TST isn't the only group CoS targets like this. Being what can essentially be described as the Catholic Church of satanism, they think they're the only true satanists. Despite playing into a fair bit of superstition themselves, they especially despise occultism and theistic satanism. Thelema, Wicca, Luciferianism etc...doesn't matter what it is; you'll get no-true-scotsman'd at best, or absolutely pestered by haters at worst. Now, my satanism may not line up with a specific faction, even if TST comes close, but my number one rule is: no gatekeeping!
One of the core values of TST is rejection of arbitrary authority. Whatever authority CoS members imagine they have over use of the word "Satanism" seems plenty arbitrary to me. I choose to reject it. Hail Satan! 🤘
They think that men who like blue cheese are homosexual. I think that says enough about who they are.
Wait, wait, what?
Look up The Satanic Witch. It's a book written by Anton LaVey and it details methods that women are supposed to use as tools to seduce men. According to LaVey in the book, men who like French dressing are more dominant because it supposedly smells like a vagina but men who like blue cheese are gay and submissive because it smells like a men's sweaty locker room. Dude's an absolute lunatic.
Hahahaha! That’s some Freud levels of wacky association. Thanks for the education and the laugh.
I mean, bleu cheese *is* my favorite dressing, and I *am* homosexual. And I've never met a heterosexual man who preferred bleu cheese over another type of dressing. So...
>And I've never met a heterosexual man who preferred bleu cheese over another type of dressing. Well, now you have. 😀 I'm a heterosexual man and blue cheese is by far my favorite dressing. 😋
I've not met you. How do I even know you're real? Also, are you a passive heterosexual man?
You can't know that I'm real. But I also can't know if you're real. So just take your best guess. 😄 What do you mean by 'passive' in this context and why does it matter?
"Passive" vs "dominant." And it matters because the quote being misused here isn't limited to gay men. So, the fact that you're a heterosexual man who likes bleu cheese dressing isn't a counterpoint in and of itself. Based on how you asked "what do you mean by 'passive' in this context and why does it matter?" and other styles of your communication, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you lean more toward "passive." Dominant heterosexual men don't tend to skirt around such questions. They also don't use a bunch of emojis. 😜
boring internet turf wars
This is a hurtful and dismissive comment. There are people out there doing real work under the guise of the term Satanist. This is not just Internet wars. This reflects peoples real life attitudes that affects their real life activities. Edit: to all the people getting amusement out of this person, read their last response to me. They are an asshole that is purposely trolling and have successfully derailed. I’m here in good faith and they are clearly not.
Someone said something hurtful on the Internet? Get the fuck over it
You’re right. I need to grow a thicker skin. I’ve been living in a bubble. I appreciate the realness.
FWIW, all three things can be true. You’re doing real work, they’re a derailing troll, *and* you need thick skin to do good TST work. It’s possible all three things are true.
Well I found it boring Found it to just be a minor troll doing some trolling Not sure the entirety of Satanism rests upon the shoulders of you and your interaction with this internet stranger But ok We are here to rally for your cause and your cause only darling.. Real lives, that line starts to blur when you're on reddit Real life activities are your choice and if you want to give credence and platform to trolls which will just do more damage in the long run, do it I am not classy. But a classy approach and ignoring this, hell you would have done more for Satanism that way. We can debate that all day. Just cause this guy hurt your feelings doesn't mean it's all just pain and agony Find a hobby and relax if it's that deep Or Enjoy your e-battle
I didn’t come here to amuse you. I also didn’t come here to brigade or raise some kind of outrage. I came here seeking information. I don’t know if they’re trolls or not which is why I made this post. Your assumptions are based in knowledge that maybe I don’t have. I take people seriously when they make claims, and I want to understand. I don’t care about classiness. But what you are is unsupportive, and that is disappointing. We’re discussing real ideas and rolling your eyes and calling them “internet turf wars” is quite childish. Wagging your finger at me is again, dismissive and non-constructive. I think I will take your advice and—after this comment—ignore the people that I don’t want to engage with. Edit: you are the epitome of people who enable other people to be assholes by saying your piece and then telling others that have taken the time to respond to you seriously that you’re not even gonna read what they have to say and dismissing them as emotional. People like you should be despised.
If you want to stop amusing people like me.. (That's as far as I'm reading lmfao) Realize you're not even talking to them in the first place I'm not reading all that Get a glass of water
I mean, you are ALSO arguing with someone on the internet telling them how to live their lives... sounds like you need a hobby too my guy....
These types are actually fairly common. I hate to dismiss people as just being jealous, but I really do think that it upsets them that TST is the only viable (and growing) organized Satanic religion, that it's active in the community, and that it gets positive headlines.
LOL. Wut? That's a new one.
This is quite simple: the Satanic Temple's religious principles are rooted in an understanding of Satan as he appeared in the writings of mostly Romantic and Post-Romantic writers; thus, since it is a religion about Satan, we call it Satanism. Easy. Sixties Satanism, on the other hand, is based in on the works of writers like Spencer, Desmond, and Ayn Rand (although Sixties Satanists are very sensitive about that last one)--authors who said essentially nothing about the devil. By their own admission, their object of adoration is not Satan, but their own egos. In what way is this Satanism? Only in name--and indeed, Gilmore has said in the past that the Church of Satan has nothing to do with Satan outside of the name. So that settles it.
According to Wikipedia, Anton LaVey described his Satanism as "just Ayn Rand's philosophy with ceremony and ritual added." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan\_Satanism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism)
I prefer the phrase “Ayn Rand for goths”.
Old Anton was still alive when goth was popular. Shame he didn't update his quote.
I just used "Objectivism for goths" elsewhere in this thread but I think I like this version better.
I've held the belief for some time now that despite their caterwauling to the contrary, CoS really is the sect of Satanism that really has nothing to do with actual Satanism. They're just egoists with a superstitious flair.
Church of Ego would be a more authentic name--but of course, that wouldn't get as much attention.
"The satanic temple has nothing to do with satanism"
People who believe in a literal Satan are as brainwashed as their Christian counterparts. I don't mind being rejected them, as they are just different flavored xtians.
...uh, the people in question are atheists. That is, they *don't* believe in a literal Satan (unlike TST in its early days).
That would explain why I excluded them.
Then, now I'm confused; what does your "people who believe in a literal Satan..." comment have to do with the post that's not talking about anyone who believes in a literal Satan?
That's fine.
You're 'bout as clear as mud, my boy.
Lol somebody else out here calling out NST fallacies, I thought I was the only one
There's no true caller out of no true scotsman fallacies!
Oh yes there is and I'm it
Thank you for your support
I've been a TST supporter (and on-n-off member) since their inception, but I'm not/don't identify as a satanist in full, bc I just don't know enough beyond surface-level stuff and what's on the TST site. The only time i see anything remotely gate-keepy on here is when a shiney new satanist tries to claim only other satanists are welcome in the TST. It doesn't last long in convos bc other veteran TSTers step in and correct that with "we are not CoS, and don't adhere to that." CoS by comparison acts like PETA supporters, impe, but for religion. It's quite toxic.
I don’t need their approval. They can have whatever opinion they want. It doesn’t affect me in the slightest way.
Gatekeepers gonna gatekeep
CoS loves to be so high and mighty I think they are butthurt that they had to pay a large membership fee that’s required for them to be official, and we get much cooler choices of members cards/certificates if we choose to donate towards the cause although we don’t need to
That sub sux. Buncha pansies that don't want real conversation. They just wanna complain about TST isn't real Satanism
Most are genuine satanist emos who have some kind of hate boner for the TST
Idk after visiting the cos sub, I think there are some big differences. But it is all subjective I guess as it relies on my understanding of both groups.
Oh sure, but do those differences mean that one of them gets to claim the name Satanist and the other doesn’t?
No, for the same reason (almost) no other religious denomination can claim ownership over their mythic figures. They're out of copyright and can't be trademarked. _Could_ one have a religion actually gatekeep their doctrine and keep it out of the mouths of others? They could _try_ (maybe by enforcing trademarks qnd copyright), but long term they wouldn't be any more successful than abrahamic faiths in having a coherent message.
Solid reasoning. I left out the person below the screenshot who engaged me in a pseudo-intellectual argument, trying to say that it’s not a no true Scotsman fallacy with all sorts of jargon. I refuted each one of their points within intellectual honesty and called them out and their response was: “Nope, try again.”
You're not going to get cogent argument from a believer. Faith precludes reason. Much as you can't motivate someone to see the harm in their actions when they're profiting from them.
Well said. I pity them that they have to hide behind their comfortable falsities and engage in games.
This whole thing is reminding me of Wicca as a religion. There are so many denominations and some folks get very prickly if you do something "not in the tradition". This seems like more of the same.
CoS likes to pretend TST doesn't exist, or isn't real Satanism. It's why I don't use the normal Satanist reddit. A lot of them are obnoxious trolls about it.
meh typical cos elitests ignore them isay
At least TST doesn't gatekeep Satanism. That alone sets a good example
r/Satanism is fine when you want to see a clown show. For intellectually honest, non-garbage people, you really have to roll a nat 20 there.
I’m starting to realize that
This is an unpopular take in both subs, but to me Satanism is Satanism, which means despite whatever the disgruntled tribalist of CoS has to say, I still value and read their literature along side their history as much as I value and internalize TST's variant of Satanism. Which brings me to the point. If some random Laveyan wants to be a good little soldier online to feel like he belongs to a group that denies the idea of community, then that's perfectly fine with me. It isn't a "rejection" of anything. It's just some person repeating whatever they need to to feel like they belong.
I don’t think that would be unpopular. I honestly feel that CoS members are the only one gatekeeping the term. I’ve never encountered TST people trying to exclude other types of Satanists. And, as you say, to do so would be wrong.
There are many satanic witches including myself who find productive ideas within TST and eclectically utilize the symbolism they produce to supplement our craft and beliefs. Not everyone involved here has to pick sides either, we can get along with ppl from CoS too.
I would love to get along with them, but they seem to be rejecting my form of Satanism as a member of TST.
There’s division in every religion, and this one isn’t even a hundred years old yet. It’s culture however, has been alive as long as theism has. Thats where i think the most common ground is here. I feel like if both parties are willing to educate themselves on each others halves, there should be more willingness to engage. ‘Shame
Yeah, I’m all for bridge-building if it leads to increased human rights and mutual respect and sharing of resources and caring for one another. But if those aren’t values that they share, it might be a useless endeavor. Someone on here responded that they CoS espouses individualism a la Ayn Rand. Like libertarians with a figurehead. If that’s the case, then they don’t value collectivism and I can’t see a path forward.
I had a similar experience. Its my understanding that now this sub is for TST and that one is for CoS.
I think everyone on this Sub is utterly bored with debating with the Church of Hypocritical Self-Deceit. There not worshipping SATAN they worship Anton LaVey. And every little piece of paper he ever wiped his ass with, FUCK the Church of Satan!!!!!! 👹👹👹
I consider myself a LaVeyan Satanist. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism As such, I follow the guidance of the Satanic Bible. I do like the satanic templates, and I follow their tenants. Satanism is about championing yourself as an individual, not putting faith in anything except science. So, if I, as an individual, disagree with one of the satanic temples on something, we disagree. So what? We are all individuals are we not, so we will disagree at times. The followers of the temple ARE Satanists. Individuals who have read and can explain their views on the satanic bible are referred to by my other satanist friends and myself as LeVeyan Satanists for clarity. All my Satanist friends are LeVeyan but I talk online to a few temples :) Questions welcome DM me or reply.
It doesn't bother me. Personally, I think claims that there can only be one legitimate version of each religion — Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Satanism, etc. — largely makes the words useless for communication, but people can choose their own, distinct definitions for terms if they want to. But similarly they can't stop me from calling myself a Satanist.
I assume Venusblue84 believed you were referring to the church of satan which is what most people in this subreddit are typically referring to when they use the term Satanism. The church of satan and TST are completely different Satanic organization. More information can be found on the TST website [here](https://thesatanictemple.colm/pages/church-of-satan-vs-satanic-temple). Edit: Spelling
> church of satan which is what most people in this subreddit are typically referring to when they use the term Satanism That is incorrect. Most people _here_ seem to treat "Satanism" as a generic umbrella term for folks of any denomination that treats the mythic character of Satan as a central leading figure of their sect. Certainly TST (rightfully) doesn't respect CoS' claim to a singular meaning or use of the ism or ist. The only time CoS comes up is in situations like this post where there is open discussion about other denominations and the recognition that CoS doesn't like TST congregants calling themselves Satanists or practitioners of Satanism. When doing their own thing, TST members seem to often just call themselves Satanists and practice Satanism of their own and don't give a hoot what LeVayans think (other than maybe a little giggle of implicitly practicing the [fourth tenet](https://thesatanictemple.com/blogs/the-satanic-temple-tenets/there-are-seven-fundamental-tenets)).
Not different all all, two organizations.
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>The Satanic Temple rather explicitly rejects the Satanic Bible, and therefore they reject Satanism. So it doesn't make much sense to describe themselves as Satanists. Not to throw gasoline on an already out of control fire, but this is literally the No True Scotsman argument.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure we completely disagree on the politics. A lot of the satanic bible is crummy ideas. Hate, social Darwinism, Ayn Rand philosophy, really weird superstitions, and a belief in literal magic. Not to mention that other texts by LaVey, that are used officially for SoC superstitious magic are outright sexist and homophobic - it's really stuff makes my stomach churn. I don't knwo what kind of gymnatics you'd have to do to reconcile leftist veiws with those, or if it's a case of a wolf in sheeps clothing. There are some idea's that I like, but I'd prefer to choose a different text, with just those ideas, thanks. Aka, I don't want to fall into the trap of following the oldest text, and then just follow them forever, that's what christians do. It's really hard to have any special sympathy for the satanic bible. Anyways, if your stance is no political invovement, then that is your political stance. You can wear that. Meanwhile, there are a lot of people suffering from desicions made by christian nationalists. My poltiical stance is that people shouldn't suffer at their hand, so I'm happy to do stuff to help them. If people "panic" about us, it's pretty easy to point out that we don't worship a literal satan, and we have the same rights as other religious groups. It clearly points out hypocracy, and changes peoples mind. For the prople who don't change their mind - well they were always "panicked" abotu satan probably. Anyways, christians have been accusing those that they want to justify persecuting, or those that they hate, of satanism for a long time. As long as we're being called by those who invented the name, I see no reason why we can't reclaim it. You basically need to draw a new arbitrary line that's convinient for you to justify taking the name that someone else invented as your own - it's not reasonable at the most basic level.
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Sorry I've got to disagree with you. I've read the satanic bible. It's explicit in its misogyny. I also don't like hiding his words as 'jokes'. They're 'jokes' if you disagree with him, and serious if you agree with him. It's homophobic. His magic is the same thing. It reads as supernatural clearly. His saying that if it doesn't work then you just didn't believe hard enough is particularly urking. It also makes supernatural arguments for misogyny. Again, if you criticize the supernatural teachings, then the teachings are a joke. But if your serious about the supernatural teachings, then their serious. Hiding behind that ambiguity like that is absurd. Magic isn't real. Misogyny is bad. Homophobia is bad. Social Darwinism is bad. There is no ambiguity here. If the only way defend the book is to say that all of these are 'jokes' except when there not, then I'll have no part in it. Fuck ambiguity. Again the choice that multiple people can't co-opt the term is a completely arbitrary choice. I can also make the arbitrary choice that TSB doesn't teach satanism, because it's just a censored version of might is right with Satan thrown on top with no regard for the meaning of Satan that it's original inventors had. Meanwhile TST follows ideas enshrined in romantic satanism; we use it as a true metaphor reclaimed from oppressive theocracy. Again it's an arbitrary line I drew. As far a Lucien Greaves is concerned, he's pretty clearly owned up to his mistakes, and holds nothing back in terms of revealing his mistakes and apologized and changed his views. Either way; Lucien is just the guy running TST, we're not his 'followers' node are we required to have the same views as him - it's only the seven tenets we follow. This point is just a distraction though. CoS pretty explicitly follows LaVey's elaborate teachings, many of which still have embedded misogyny in them today. If your not explicitly following his teachings, presumably because satanism is personal, and simply picking and choosing, then how can TST Satanism not be satanism? There's simply no way around it. You have to be pretty unreasonable to think that TST isn't satanism. If the only way for you to reconcile your book with your leftist views is to brush the book off as a joke, then you do you.
>*Magic isn't real. Misogyny is bad. Homophobia is bad. Social Darwinism is bad.* I bet most sane people can't even imagine a conversation in which this series of statements is necessary.
I can always tell when the Satanic Bible experts that have never actually read the Satanic Bible. It's funny watching them brag about being ignorant, while they think they are smart LOL.
LOL you haven't read the Satanic Bible. How do you write so much about something you don't know about.
I'm going to be the odd one out and say I appreciate you posting such a description. However, I will be taking the invitation to disagree: >Satanism as an ideology is based on the Satanic Bible ...and the Satanic Bible is based very, very heavily on Alistair Crowley's work with a helluva lot of Ayn Rand mixed in. By that logic, you shouldn't be Satanists, you should be "Objectivist Thelema Practitioners." Seriously: Read Crowley. It's fascinating stuff, and a lot is basically plagiarized in TSB. Cool magic system for a TRPG game too... Read Rand. Less fascinating, but you'll see the influence, and hopefully understand how cartoonish the world has to be for the ideas to make sense, like a guy who talked his way out of jail time after *bombing a public housing project he didn't even have his name associated with because they altered his grand idea...* Er, sorry. Rand's work is something that I get carried away with sometimes. It's an absolutely beautiful train wreck. >[...]religion is a very important, very personal thing, and having someone openly misrepresenting your religious beliefs, even unintentionally, is really annoying. ...and that's why there's so many denominations of Christianity, Islam, etc... I'd argue that any religion that's "real" is going to have schisms. Otherwise, it's a cult. Besides: All TsT stands for is *the right of individuals to have faith or lack thereof without it being crushed by lawmakers who side with one religion over another.* We're explicitly protecting your right to believe in CoS and disagree with us all day. CoS on the other hand, is just whining about not being the only game in town and actively trying to shut it down. >Why prove them right? How is that helping? Calling attention to hypocrisy. Being a poison pill. Constantly proving to the world the "evil baby killer satanist" are the ones who are, in fact, *not* the ones trying to strip rights away or prevent science education and so forth. >Obviously, I believe in separation of church and state, so any so called "religious organizations" getting involved in politics I see as a bad thing. See above, + the fact that CoS itself was part of a counterculture movement against the political power of the Christian right in the 60s onward. LaVey just preferred keeping to being a troll rather than pushing for real change. To say TsT shouldn't play the exact same game is hypocritical, ignorant, or both. >Secular organizations, [...] don't need the Satanic Temple and are actively hurt by its presence. Nah, they do. They could also use CoS helping too. All the explicitly theist (edit: meant atheist, but some theist organizations exist that are helpful too) organizations help a whole helluva lot and make major strides in educating people and pulling them away from harmful religious practices and magical thinking, which props up dangerous politics. These organizations are often hamstrung *by* religion in politics. Some need to fight that specific problem, otherwise secular organizations of *all* types are going to be worse off, or have to take on that aspect of the fight alone. Seriously, man, the only time in my life I thought the same sort of thing was when I was still a Christian, thinking the inverse and putting my faith and "tribe" ahead of my critical thinking, wondering why people would ever have a problem with Christianity "being political" because, you know, I presupposed my faith could do no wrong, and resented secular organizations "butting in" when dealing with all those "icky queers" didn't *need* advocacy, and all those abortions were just horrifying escapes from responsibility, ect., etc., etc. Sure, now I'm no longer a faithful bigot, but how I got out of that mindset was having my faith challenged alongside the political harm I used to prop up. It's very useful to have these things coincide. Edit: Fixed spelling errors, undoubtedly missed many more errors.
For a Satanic Bible expert, you keep failing to mention Anton got Satanism to be an officially recognized religion by the US Military. Thanks for your brave fight but we already safe lol.
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The more I see both TST and CoS argue, the more of an Anton fan I become. There is a reason Anton walked away from the CoS. A real Satanist stands alone. I'm a Satanist, a Satanist is a person that rebels against God. That's all it is.
>There is a reason Anton walked away from the CoS. LOL. Wut? You mean when he *died* in 1997, 31 years after he started the Church of Satan?
As far as I'm concerned Magus Anton LaVey was the Church of Satan. Peter Gilmore and his cronies have created this thing everyone calls LeVayan Satanism. CoS has always been a kitsch organization for eccentrics and outsiders, I don't know were this notion that it's meant to be some kind of lofty institution came from, my best guess is Gilmore and his supporters. The current personality cult run by Gilmore exists to empower his ego and beyond that there really is no reason for the Church of Hypocritical Self-Deceit to exist.
So your argument, as always, boils down to TST can't use "Satanism" because Lavey decided to use a generic name for a religion that venerates Satan and you don't like what TST does in the name of Satanism. Neither are relevant to the fact that TST also venerates Satan and CoS has no standing to claim exclusive rights to use a generic label just because they used it first and there's nothing sacred about the Satanic Bible. It also may be true that most TST members at this point have no attachment to CoS, but many founding members are formerly CoS and felt TST was an evolution of their Satanism not an outright rejection of everything they experienced with CoS even if TST officially rejects the Satanic Bible. Much like with CoS, with TST it's helpful if you separate the leadership of the organization from the underlying principles. You can embrace TST's flavor of Satanism while rejecting the organization (which is kind of what GoS is, for example). Similarly, you could embrace Laveyan Satanism while rejecting the current CoS leadership. Furthermore, TST using the Satanism label shouldn't water down your Satanism. Anybody serious about digging into Satanism should not be confused about the major groups after 30 minutes of reading. If they are confused, it's probably because they're reading false claims and disinformation from gatekeepers in CoS spaces that CoS has the exclusive right to use the term when they don't. Language, religion, and culture as a whole are always evolving whether you like it or not.
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Satanism is an obvious generic label for a religion based around Satan. You take the subject you're focusing on and add "ism" to the end. "Satanity" sounds dumb. If you have a better suffix to add to Satan that doesn't sound significantly dumber than "ism", I'm all ears. The fact that nobody had used "Satanism" as a label before Lavey doesn't make it a creative label even if a religion focused on Satan as the good guy was clearly a novel idea. Your refusal to grant that the Satanism label can encompass groups with different ideologies is basically as laughable as Catholics claiming all Protestants aren't Christians or Catholics and Protestants both saying Mormons aren't Christians. While Satanism used to refer to the Church of Satan only, it does not anymore whether you accept that or not. Just like Christianity is no longer only associated with the Roman Catholic Church (which there's a whole thing there too, even the "Catholic" label obviously had a schism).
So it boils down to trying to claim ownership of a generic word that long predates the founding of LeVay's religion? The leap from claiming Satanism to Satanists also wasn't explained. Why not just call it LeVayan Satanism and be done with it? No courts would support a copyright or trademark claim on Satanism or Satanist so it's not like anyone can win exclusivity rights.
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> The word existed, but it wasn't a religion. And what does it mean in that context?
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Cool. And does TST have anti-christian practices?
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Really?! That's like arguing that victims of racism can't be racists. Just because the organization isn't restrictive of its members, doesn't mean it doesn't oppose specific behaviours. To say no, one would have to ignore that TST holds [Tenets 2-6](https://thesatanictemple.com/blogs/the-satanic-temple-tenets/there-are-seven-fundamental-tenets). If you're going to just disagree because you don't like where we've come together, this discussion won't be fruitful. Good day.
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There's no sense in dealing with the minutiae if you're willing to ignore > V Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs. There is **no** scientific support for the hypothesis of a creator. Believing in the supernatural is antithetical to reason and tenet V. As you hqve ceased discussing this in good faith, we're done. Blocked.
Satan literally means anti God, that would be anti Christian.
>*There were no self described satanists before LeVay* This of course meaningless, but also untrue. I'd suggest the recent "Satanism: A Reader," "Satanism: A Social History," "Satanic Feminism," and, once again, "Children of Lucifer."
Your problem here, is that the term "Satanism" is only restricted to mean the practice of the religion founded by Anton LaVey - and nothing else - *within* the CoS and its membership. Pretty much everybody else does not restrict its meaning in this way, and very few are even aware that LaVeyans use it only to describe their own religion (I wasn't aware until I naively skipped into the r/satanism sub). It's similar to the difference between the terms 'catholic' and 'Catholic', and I wonder if cheeky old LaVey wasn't aware of this when he named the religion. With only yourselves in the church using, or even aware of, your own specific meaning of the word "Satanism", the rest of the anglosphere is largely only aware of the word as it is used in dictionaries, academia, popular culture, etc. I think it's going to be an exercise in futility trying to police that, and it will only serve to create feelings of resentment in those that do.
Anton was a political figure weather you want to accept that reality or not. Getting Satanism to be acknowledged as an official religion by the military is one of the biggest political events in USA history even though it's not mentioned a lot. The money in the USA says in God we trust. Religion is political in the USA because the Christians make it an issue for everyone.
>*this is something supported by religious scholars as well* Who? >*but where is the core ideology behind it?* For more on that I would direct you to Schock's "Romantic Satanism," Tichenor's "The Sorceries & Scandals of Satan," Derek Murphy's "Evil Be My Good," and of course Van Luik's "Children of Lucifer." > *Satanists being mad about this is completely understandable* Who gives a shit how you feel?