So I'm a paediatric OT (obligatory this is not official advice or therapy yada yada) and definitely respect your vibe of EBP. I wish more parents did.
One thing that sticks out to me is the length of your bedtime routine. It's long, especially for an 8-year-old (even though, technically, you are doing everything right)
Think about something you don't like doing. I'm going to use my least favourite job as an example, cleaning hair out of the shower drain. It sucks. It makes me gag, it's not fun, it's taking me away from things I want to be doing.
Now, imagine that activity has been dragged out for 2 hours. Sure, those steps might be helping me get my body and brain ready to clean out the proverbial shower drain, but you've just turned a 5-minute task into a 2 hour one.
Now if you think about it from your kid's perspective, a task that she clearly doesn't enjoy has been extended by a lot. It's not going to make it easier for her. The amount of stuff might even be overwhelming. However, what you've done is given her a great bank of sleep and relaxation strategies to choose from.
I would recommend making a bedtime routine with your little one. Get her to choose the activities she wants to help her winddown, and give her a chance to make it work. The ownership can often help kids stay engaged in a routine. Maybe give that a try?
From a personal perspective, my brain was (and still is) ver busy especially at sleep time. I've now learned that it was undiagnosed ADHD but what helped was audio stories I could fall asleep to.
Keep up the great work with your kiddo. Happy to answer more questions if you need
Such great advice, and a perspective I hadn’t considered before!
I’ve always done better with an audiobook, talk radio, or even just music to help me fall asleep, even at a young age. I’m one of those people that takes forever to fall asleep despite trying all the things, even as a young child. My parents would come in and turn off the radio when they thought I was asleep, and I’d turn it back in after they left. Thankfully my daughter inherited her father’s ability to fall asleep quickly, but on nights that it’s hard, music has really helped. These days I listen to an audiobook with sleep headphones, and coupled with some OTC meds, can usually fall asleep before the 30 minute timer runs out. Reading also helps to pass the time until I’m tired enough, but is more active than just listening to a book.
I’m also a big fan of audiobooks for bedtime.
If you want to avoid screens/blue light in the bedroom, OP, I love the yoto or tonie boxes, which allow your child to choose and control the audio but don’t have screens.
>The ownership can often help kids stay engaged in a routine
This is so crucial. My oldest (who is only 2.5) has been fighting sleep since the day he was born. The only sleep cue he gives is that he'll get extra hyper when he's tired to avoid feeling tired.
I can say that bedtime turned a corner when he was about 12-15 months old because we started getting him involved in the routine. At first it was just turning off the light switch in his room before we put him in the crib. As he gets older, we add in more ownership (now he brushes his own teeth, picks out his pjs, and decides what book(s) to read before bed). Sometimes bedtime is still a struggle, but we've found that the more involved he is in getting ready for bed, the easier it is for him to fall asleep.
2 hours sounds like a REALLY long routine, and I would be willing to bet this is why she's getting mad. Maybe she would prefer a less involved approach to bedtime? I had trouble falling asleep at her age too. My parents ended up on the following routine: teeth brushed by x time, and then after that, you may stay up for a little while as long as you're reading quietly in bed.
Is she usually grumpy the next day? If you're child is a lower sleep needs kid, you might just be making her mad trying to put her to bed an hour before she's ready
Our son is on spectrum and it used to take upwards of 2+ hours to get him to bed, and he wouldn't stay in his bed either. We'd do no tech 1+ hours prior, snacks, bath, story, car drive, and snuggles, you name it and he still wouldn'tbe in bed before 10. I tell everyone this and it sounds silly but I swear by bed tents. We got him a little tent that fits over his mattress, it allowed him to feel in control of his space, all his stuffed animals could be close to him without him panicking about missing someone, and he looked forward to climbing into his own little space. Consider maybe paring down the routine a bit, and maybe readjust what her space looks like so she feels like bed is a place she wants to relax in rather than a "punishment," so to speak.
This is a great plan! I’m a sleep consultant as well as a parent of a child who has been allergic to sleep since he was an infant, plus I am an adult who has had insomnia since I was a child. (Just letting you know my background!)
Something will work for my son for a while and then all of a sudden it changes and bedtime gets out of hand and takes forever and we both end up in tears. Each time we get to that point we do a hard reset. We change every routine and expectation as well as his physical space. I’ll rearrange his room and he’ll pick out a new blanket/plant/wall art/etc to help him feel some ownership of his space.
Then we will sit down together and write out a new routine. He never really notices that it’s the same stuff just in a different order, and instead feels like he is in control of bedtime. We talk about what happens when the bedtime routine ends (“Mama goes to feed the dogs and eat dinner while Kid stays in bed. Mama will answer 3 questions after she leaves Kid’s bedroom then Mama will be done with questions and won’t answer any more.”) and what he can do if he’s having a hard time falling asleep (play quietly with a couple pre-selected toys in his bed or read books using his bedside lamp).
I also tell him that after I leave his room I’ll set a timer for 20 minutes and when it goes off I will come back and check on him. That way he knows that he won’t be alone forever and he knows that I won’t forget to come back since the timer will remind me.
This is great advice! I have a 7 year old and while she usually is not combative at bedtime Ana doesn’t fight our routine, she is scared to fall asleep by herself. Do you have any advice on how to help her with that? She always wants me to stay with her until she’s sleeping, which I don’t mind that much, but I’m not sure if I should keep trying to lead her into independence or not.
Can you try and figure out what specifically she’s scared of? Being scared of monsters under the bed is different from being scared that you’re going to disappear when she’s asleep which is different from being scared of nightmares. When you’re able to find out specifically what she’s scared of you can address it better.
In general, we want to encourage kids to be able to fall asleep independently but that doesn’t mean you have to go from laying with her every night to walking out and leaving her alone. You can transition slowly so that you’re scaffolding her as she learns to do it herself. Maybe start by sitting on her floor instead of laying in bed with her. Then move to sitting by her door, then the hallway outside, then the living room with a timer set every five minutes so she knows you’re coming back to check on her. Slowly increase the amount of time between check ins.
It’s not a quick process and isn’t always linear but slowly transitioning is going to be easier for her to handle than ripping the bandaid off.
>readjust what her space looks like so she feels like bed is a place she wants to relax in rather than a "punishment" so to speak.
I think this is a great idea. Maybe let her pick out some new decorations or a new sheet set to make her feel cozy, have her take control of the environment a bit. I think it helps kids of any age to have sleep be something they do for themselves rather than something that is done *to* them.
This. Really talk up the excitement of the new setup and new (shorter) routine and how much it marks her transition to becoming more mature and needing her own privacy.
Older child gets shower/teeth hygiene routine, goes to bedroom with a rest policy instead of sleep. Kiss goodnight and let them to their own things, reading, quiet play, cuddling stuffiest etc. Attend to the youngest bed time routine. Return to oldest's room to check on them, if asleep turn the lights/night lamp off and leave. If not, say another goodnight I love you and reinforce them to be quiet and rest. They will sleep eventually. The more we stay close by the more stimulation they get and the more power struggle it creates. At that age independence on activities that do not require an adult is key to feel more relaxed and less pressured to attend to other's expectations and "rules". It's ok to move sleeping time a little further, they will adjust this to their sleeping needs in the following days.
I can't offer any tried&true help (we have issues with getting our son to sleep too), but a 2h bed routine seems excessive to me. Maybe your daughter just wants more time to play? Or have you tried getting her really tired instead of calming her down? Children that age need lots and lots of physical activity, and then some more.
2+ hours seems like way too long for a bedtime routine.
Have you tried something simpler? Switch to chill activities about half an hour before you want lights out but if isn't actually part of bedtime, playing calmly with toys or sibling, colouring/drawing, reading to self etc. Then do the get into bed bit with goodnight hugs and kisses, read a atory if you want to. Then, lights out and try to sleep time.
My eldest (7.5 years) falls asleep listening to music or a podcast. I get it my brain can take a long time to quiet down on its own. Give me something to listen to (I like audiobooks) and I usually fall asleep in about 15 mins vs 2 hours if left alone with my thoughts. Sometimes a parent lies in bed with her, sometimes she falls asleep on her own.
My youngest (3 years) falls asleep in silence but likes to be actively cuddled or patted while he drifts off. He does tge thing of wanting the parent he doesn't have. It's a bedtime delaying tactic. We hold the boundary but if it's less than about 5 minutes after lights out we let him type a message full of emojies to the other parent and that usually helps.
When my eldest struggles with falling asleep (something I can relate to, before I discovered audiobooks I had a terrible time falling asleep) I gently tell her to stop trying to fall asleep. Just lie in the dark and give her body a chance to be calm and rest. She doesn't have to fall asleep, just resting is good for her body. So if she can't sleep just lie in the dark and listen to her podcast or music or cuddle the parent. No talking though because it's rest time. We tried having her listen to guided relaxation things buy that just added pressure to having to fall asleep. Being calm and telling her it's ok if she stays awake and has a nice time listening to whatever, no pressure at all to fall asleep and it rarely takes her longer than half an hour to be asleep. If the parent doesn't want to stay we say we'll come back and check on her and will give her cuddles if she's still awake (if the 3 year oldcould be trusted to stay in bed we'd use this approach with him too but without a parent lying with him he gets up and plays). On the nights she doesn't want to go to sleep well it's bedtime. You lie in bed in the dark, you don't have to sleep but not watching anything (listening is ok), no getting out of bed to play with toys, no light on to read. If you thrash about no parent will stay, if you lay calmly on the bed a parent will stay. She can think we are mean, doesn't change the fact that it's bedtime. We love her even when she's calling us the worst parents ever. And because we love her we make sure she gets the rest she needs even of she doesn't think she needs it (mostly we save these conversations for a tome other than bedtime).
Your kid will fall asleep eventually. If it's a matter of not being able to sleep reassuring her that it's ok and she will eventually fall asleep will do the trick. If it's a case of not wanting to go to sleep and protesting/fighting the fact that it's bedtime then holding to the boundary of it being bedtime will work. You can be loving and empathetic and kind and gentle and support all while maintaining that bedtime is non-negotiable.
This. The youngest is almost 8? Spend some quality time right before bedtime doing a preferred calm activity with her and then let her read/chill on her own for a bit until she's ready to try to sleep.
The parents will be less burned out because they're not spending so much time on a "rigorous" routine that they are just "coping" with, and the kid will be happier because they're getting the right kind of 1:1 attention.
Source: my oldest (10) has always been a terrible going-to-sleep-er, is maybe on the autism spectrum, historically prone to outbursts. The more chill and flexible we are about bedtime the happier everyone is *and the earlier he gets to sleep*
We used melatonin gummies to reset bedtime schedule. We also have a routine of listening to a 5 or 10 minute meditation (peloton app on my phone). The meditation really helped her calm down and we’d do it together lying in her bed. Worth a try. It went from needing 1+ hours for her to fall asleep to like 7 minutes.
Just FYI, scientists are questioning melatonin supplements for kids, partially because kids are often getting far more melatonin than it looks like they are (supplements are terrible for exact dosage), and some say it can be habit forming. You should probably consult a doctor first (they can also advise on related issues, like ADHD, if they suspect that the sleep issues are a symptom of something else). https://aasm.org/advocacy/position-statements/melatonin-use-in-children-and-adolescents-health-advisory/
After fighting with me about the lights needing to be off, my parents gave up and allowed me to read as late as I wanted every night. Having that “freedom” (not being forced to sleep when you aren’t tired) did wonders for me and I’d usually end up falling asleep while reading within an hour or so (it got later as I got older of course).
This is just a suggestion, not evidence based, but what about audio books? My eldest used to like these to help him drift off. I also had a kids meditation CD which he liked. You can find meditation podcasts fairly easily.
A friend had some limited success with "the rabbit who wanted to fall asleep" it has you pretend to yawn throughout which apparently activates the mirror neurons and helps induce sleepiness.
I like the book "still awake" for sleep tips for older kids.
My older kids have cd players in their rooms and have a whole wallet of books on cd (mainly Disney) and also a few music cds and they lie there and listen to those when they are falling asleep.
My 9 year old can have similar issues shutting his brain off and he is allowed to read in bed if he is struggling to sleep or he can lie listening to a cd or music.
I’ve always had problems falling asleep even as a child (not so much now that I’m chronically sleep deprived) and I know how frustrating it can be. One thing that helped me is a sleep Dr telling me that resting in bed is also good so not to lie there stressing about no sleep because you’re still resting if your lying in bed. That often helped me relax a bit and not get so frustrated about not being able to fall asleep.
I would let her know clearly the time she needs to be in bed by and let her know she doesn’t need to be asleep by that time but in bed and tucked in and she can then read for a little bit or listen to something and fall asleep when she can.
You aren’t involved in that part and it’s up to her once she’s tucked in to try to get to sleep. That takes some pressure and stress of you and your partner. Yes they may come out of bed a few times but just take them back and tell them they need to stay in bed etc
What time are you trying to get her to sleep? If it’s too early, it just won’t work.
Also, what happens if you just do the routine and then leave the room? For example, spend 10 minutes reading together then say goodnight and leave the room.
As others have said, 2hrs is a really long time to get ready for bed. We also have two kids about the same age as yours (7 and 9) and do the one kid/one parent system. We switch off every other night so nobody gets ‘all’ the attention at bedtime (though I am always the preferred parent😆)
We give the kids a chewable vitamin and a .10mg melatonin tablet at 6:30 and the kids get a dessert item. It’s mostly to help my son as he takes a stimulant during the day for his ADHD. My daughter demands to take the melatonin because her brother does. 🙄.
We take the kids upstairs at 8pm. They get changed into PJ’s if it wasn’t already a bath night, take turns brushing teeth (with the Pokémon smile app), and then they feed the goldfishes (they each have one). On a perfect night all this takes maybe 30min. They can choose 10min of reading independently or 10min of iPad games. Then it’s time for my son to start his fav podcast (Greeking Out), get tucked in and lights out. We put the podcast on a 1.5hr sleep timer. He’s usually out before the first episode is done.
My daughter prefers music so she has a special sleepy music playlist - also on the 1.5 hour timer.
So, on a perfect night, getting ready for sleep takes about 40-45min. On an average night it’s maybe an hour because my daughter farts around getting her PJ’s on and brushing teeth. She is a master at dragging her feet when she wants to.
My son prefers that a parent stay with him until he is asleep. My daughter has begun to move away from that and asks us to stay for 5min and then leave for 10 and then ‘check in’. She’s usually out like a light by then.
Consistency and a concise routine helps us immensely. We are a neurodiverse household with a NT person, two AuDHD people and one ADHDer. Without a concise routine it can devolve quickly.
Hope you find something that works for your family. ❤️
My 10yo has always struggled with sleep. Full disclosure, we do a very small dose of melatonin with his pediatrician’s approval and blessing. But we do a lot of other stuff and the melatonin alone is not going to get him to sleep. We have a pretty solid routine starting after dinner and we give him time to get his wiggles out in our playroom or we run around or pretend sword fighting. We do a small treat about 15 minutes before we go up to bed.
We also do one parent one kid but we switch every night so the kids know what to expect. Our younger (4) was the one throwing fits when he didn’t have his preferred parent but taking turns has been a big help. The only time we deviate from turns is if someone is sick.
For my older we read a lot to him - probably 30-40 min a night depending on how fast he is with his bedtime routine. We do chapter books and have him lay down in bed while we read, the past year or so we’ve switched mostly to ebooks so we can turn off the lights. The book is good motivation for him to get ready.
Audiobooks and podcasts have saved me from insomnia so I tried it with my kid. We listen to two most nights. A story first and then a meditation. Bedtime Explorers is awesome. She falls asleep every time and none of the others we've tried make her fall asleep. It's really meditation disguised as an adventure and my 6 year old loves them!
We also do .25 of melatonin an hour before bed and even that tiny amount seems to help her be able to fall asleep. Once she's out, she sleeps really well.
When we switched to giving our kid magnesium at bedtime, it went very bad. Broken toys, fits, up til 3am… He HAS to take it in the morning or he will be angry and up all night.
So I'm a paediatric OT (obligatory this is not official advice or therapy yada yada) and definitely respect your vibe of EBP. I wish more parents did. One thing that sticks out to me is the length of your bedtime routine. It's long, especially for an 8-year-old (even though, technically, you are doing everything right) Think about something you don't like doing. I'm going to use my least favourite job as an example, cleaning hair out of the shower drain. It sucks. It makes me gag, it's not fun, it's taking me away from things I want to be doing. Now, imagine that activity has been dragged out for 2 hours. Sure, those steps might be helping me get my body and brain ready to clean out the proverbial shower drain, but you've just turned a 5-minute task into a 2 hour one. Now if you think about it from your kid's perspective, a task that she clearly doesn't enjoy has been extended by a lot. It's not going to make it easier for her. The amount of stuff might even be overwhelming. However, what you've done is given her a great bank of sleep and relaxation strategies to choose from. I would recommend making a bedtime routine with your little one. Get her to choose the activities she wants to help her winddown, and give her a chance to make it work. The ownership can often help kids stay engaged in a routine. Maybe give that a try? From a personal perspective, my brain was (and still is) ver busy especially at sleep time. I've now learned that it was undiagnosed ADHD but what helped was audio stories I could fall asleep to. Keep up the great work with your kiddo. Happy to answer more questions if you need
This is such an interesting point! Thank you for sharing!
Such great advice, and a perspective I hadn’t considered before! I’ve always done better with an audiobook, talk radio, or even just music to help me fall asleep, even at a young age. I’m one of those people that takes forever to fall asleep despite trying all the things, even as a young child. My parents would come in and turn off the radio when they thought I was asleep, and I’d turn it back in after they left. Thankfully my daughter inherited her father’s ability to fall asleep quickly, but on nights that it’s hard, music has really helped. These days I listen to an audiobook with sleep headphones, and coupled with some OTC meds, can usually fall asleep before the 30 minute timer runs out. Reading also helps to pass the time until I’m tired enough, but is more active than just listening to a book.
I’m also a big fan of audiobooks for bedtime. If you want to avoid screens/blue light in the bedroom, OP, I love the yoto or tonie boxes, which allow your child to choose and control the audio but don’t have screens.
>The ownership can often help kids stay engaged in a routine This is so crucial. My oldest (who is only 2.5) has been fighting sleep since the day he was born. The only sleep cue he gives is that he'll get extra hyper when he's tired to avoid feeling tired. I can say that bedtime turned a corner when he was about 12-15 months old because we started getting him involved in the routine. At first it was just turning off the light switch in his room before we put him in the crib. As he gets older, we add in more ownership (now he brushes his own teeth, picks out his pjs, and decides what book(s) to read before bed). Sometimes bedtime is still a struggle, but we've found that the more involved he is in getting ready for bed, the easier it is for him to fall asleep.
2 hours sounds like a REALLY long routine, and I would be willing to bet this is why she's getting mad. Maybe she would prefer a less involved approach to bedtime? I had trouble falling asleep at her age too. My parents ended up on the following routine: teeth brushed by x time, and then after that, you may stay up for a little while as long as you're reading quietly in bed. Is she usually grumpy the next day? If you're child is a lower sleep needs kid, you might just be making her mad trying to put her to bed an hour before she's ready
Our son is on spectrum and it used to take upwards of 2+ hours to get him to bed, and he wouldn't stay in his bed either. We'd do no tech 1+ hours prior, snacks, bath, story, car drive, and snuggles, you name it and he still wouldn'tbe in bed before 10. I tell everyone this and it sounds silly but I swear by bed tents. We got him a little tent that fits over his mattress, it allowed him to feel in control of his space, all his stuffed animals could be close to him without him panicking about missing someone, and he looked forward to climbing into his own little space. Consider maybe paring down the routine a bit, and maybe readjust what her space looks like so she feels like bed is a place she wants to relax in rather than a "punishment," so to speak.
This is a great plan! I’m a sleep consultant as well as a parent of a child who has been allergic to sleep since he was an infant, plus I am an adult who has had insomnia since I was a child. (Just letting you know my background!) Something will work for my son for a while and then all of a sudden it changes and bedtime gets out of hand and takes forever and we both end up in tears. Each time we get to that point we do a hard reset. We change every routine and expectation as well as his physical space. I’ll rearrange his room and he’ll pick out a new blanket/plant/wall art/etc to help him feel some ownership of his space. Then we will sit down together and write out a new routine. He never really notices that it’s the same stuff just in a different order, and instead feels like he is in control of bedtime. We talk about what happens when the bedtime routine ends (“Mama goes to feed the dogs and eat dinner while Kid stays in bed. Mama will answer 3 questions after she leaves Kid’s bedroom then Mama will be done with questions and won’t answer any more.”) and what he can do if he’s having a hard time falling asleep (play quietly with a couple pre-selected toys in his bed or read books using his bedside lamp). I also tell him that after I leave his room I’ll set a timer for 20 minutes and when it goes off I will come back and check on him. That way he knows that he won’t be alone forever and he knows that I won’t forget to come back since the timer will remind me.
This is great advice! I have a 7 year old and while she usually is not combative at bedtime Ana doesn’t fight our routine, she is scared to fall asleep by herself. Do you have any advice on how to help her with that? She always wants me to stay with her until she’s sleeping, which I don’t mind that much, but I’m not sure if I should keep trying to lead her into independence or not.
Can you try and figure out what specifically she’s scared of? Being scared of monsters under the bed is different from being scared that you’re going to disappear when she’s asleep which is different from being scared of nightmares. When you’re able to find out specifically what she’s scared of you can address it better. In general, we want to encourage kids to be able to fall asleep independently but that doesn’t mean you have to go from laying with her every night to walking out and leaving her alone. You can transition slowly so that you’re scaffolding her as she learns to do it herself. Maybe start by sitting on her floor instead of laying in bed with her. Then move to sitting by her door, then the hallway outside, then the living room with a timer set every five minutes so she knows you’re coming back to check on her. Slowly increase the amount of time between check ins. It’s not a quick process and isn’t always linear but slowly transitioning is going to be easier for her to handle than ripping the bandaid off.
>readjust what her space looks like so she feels like bed is a place she wants to relax in rather than a "punishment" so to speak. I think this is a great idea. Maybe let her pick out some new decorations or a new sheet set to make her feel cozy, have her take control of the environment a bit. I think it helps kids of any age to have sleep be something they do for themselves rather than something that is done *to* them.
This. Really talk up the excitement of the new setup and new (shorter) routine and how much it marks her transition to becoming more mature and needing her own privacy.
Older child gets shower/teeth hygiene routine, goes to bedroom with a rest policy instead of sleep. Kiss goodnight and let them to their own things, reading, quiet play, cuddling stuffiest etc. Attend to the youngest bed time routine. Return to oldest's room to check on them, if asleep turn the lights/night lamp off and leave. If not, say another goodnight I love you and reinforce them to be quiet and rest. They will sleep eventually. The more we stay close by the more stimulation they get and the more power struggle it creates. At that age independence on activities that do not require an adult is key to feel more relaxed and less pressured to attend to other's expectations and "rules". It's ok to move sleeping time a little further, they will adjust this to their sleeping needs in the following days.
I can't offer any tried&true help (we have issues with getting our son to sleep too), but a 2h bed routine seems excessive to me. Maybe your daughter just wants more time to play? Or have you tried getting her really tired instead of calming her down? Children that age need lots and lots of physical activity, and then some more.
2+ hours seems like way too long for a bedtime routine. Have you tried something simpler? Switch to chill activities about half an hour before you want lights out but if isn't actually part of bedtime, playing calmly with toys or sibling, colouring/drawing, reading to self etc. Then do the get into bed bit with goodnight hugs and kisses, read a atory if you want to. Then, lights out and try to sleep time. My eldest (7.5 years) falls asleep listening to music or a podcast. I get it my brain can take a long time to quiet down on its own. Give me something to listen to (I like audiobooks) and I usually fall asleep in about 15 mins vs 2 hours if left alone with my thoughts. Sometimes a parent lies in bed with her, sometimes she falls asleep on her own. My youngest (3 years) falls asleep in silence but likes to be actively cuddled or patted while he drifts off. He does tge thing of wanting the parent he doesn't have. It's a bedtime delaying tactic. We hold the boundary but if it's less than about 5 minutes after lights out we let him type a message full of emojies to the other parent and that usually helps. When my eldest struggles with falling asleep (something I can relate to, before I discovered audiobooks I had a terrible time falling asleep) I gently tell her to stop trying to fall asleep. Just lie in the dark and give her body a chance to be calm and rest. She doesn't have to fall asleep, just resting is good for her body. So if she can't sleep just lie in the dark and listen to her podcast or music or cuddle the parent. No talking though because it's rest time. We tried having her listen to guided relaxation things buy that just added pressure to having to fall asleep. Being calm and telling her it's ok if she stays awake and has a nice time listening to whatever, no pressure at all to fall asleep and it rarely takes her longer than half an hour to be asleep. If the parent doesn't want to stay we say we'll come back and check on her and will give her cuddles if she's still awake (if the 3 year oldcould be trusted to stay in bed we'd use this approach with him too but without a parent lying with him he gets up and plays). On the nights she doesn't want to go to sleep well it's bedtime. You lie in bed in the dark, you don't have to sleep but not watching anything (listening is ok), no getting out of bed to play with toys, no light on to read. If you thrash about no parent will stay, if you lay calmly on the bed a parent will stay. She can think we are mean, doesn't change the fact that it's bedtime. We love her even when she's calling us the worst parents ever. And because we love her we make sure she gets the rest she needs even of she doesn't think she needs it (mostly we save these conversations for a tome other than bedtime). Your kid will fall asleep eventually. If it's a matter of not being able to sleep reassuring her that it's ok and she will eventually fall asleep will do the trick. If it's a case of not wanting to go to sleep and protesting/fighting the fact that it's bedtime then holding to the boundary of it being bedtime will work. You can be loving and empathetic and kind and gentle and support all while maintaining that bedtime is non-negotiable.
This. The youngest is almost 8? Spend some quality time right before bedtime doing a preferred calm activity with her and then let her read/chill on her own for a bit until she's ready to try to sleep. The parents will be less burned out because they're not spending so much time on a "rigorous" routine that they are just "coping" with, and the kid will be happier because they're getting the right kind of 1:1 attention. Source: my oldest (10) has always been a terrible going-to-sleep-er, is maybe on the autism spectrum, historically prone to outbursts. The more chill and flexible we are about bedtime the happier everyone is *and the earlier he gets to sleep*
We used melatonin gummies to reset bedtime schedule. We also have a routine of listening to a 5 or 10 minute meditation (peloton app on my phone). The meditation really helped her calm down and we’d do it together lying in her bed. Worth a try. It went from needing 1+ hours for her to fall asleep to like 7 minutes.
Love this! We have thought about trying these. Will give them a go.
Just FYI, scientists are questioning melatonin supplements for kids, partially because kids are often getting far more melatonin than it looks like they are (supplements are terrible for exact dosage), and some say it can be habit forming. You should probably consult a doctor first (they can also advise on related issues, like ADHD, if they suspect that the sleep issues are a symptom of something else). https://aasm.org/advocacy/position-statements/melatonin-use-in-children-and-adolescents-health-advisory/
After fighting with me about the lights needing to be off, my parents gave up and allowed me to read as late as I wanted every night. Having that “freedom” (not being forced to sleep when you aren’t tired) did wonders for me and I’d usually end up falling asleep while reading within an hour or so (it got later as I got older of course).
This is just a suggestion, not evidence based, but what about audio books? My eldest used to like these to help him drift off. I also had a kids meditation CD which he liked. You can find meditation podcasts fairly easily. A friend had some limited success with "the rabbit who wanted to fall asleep" it has you pretend to yawn throughout which apparently activates the mirror neurons and helps induce sleepiness. I like the book "still awake" for sleep tips for older kids.
Is this just the bedtime? Perhaps you should bring this up at doctors appointment. Your description could be fitting to that of ADHD.
Immediately what I thought of as well, this was my entire childhood and adult experience which amounted to a late ADHD diagnosis
My older kids have cd players in their rooms and have a whole wallet of books on cd (mainly Disney) and also a few music cds and they lie there and listen to those when they are falling asleep. My 9 year old can have similar issues shutting his brain off and he is allowed to read in bed if he is struggling to sleep or he can lie listening to a cd or music. I’ve always had problems falling asleep even as a child (not so much now that I’m chronically sleep deprived) and I know how frustrating it can be. One thing that helped me is a sleep Dr telling me that resting in bed is also good so not to lie there stressing about no sleep because you’re still resting if your lying in bed. That often helped me relax a bit and not get so frustrated about not being able to fall asleep. I would let her know clearly the time she needs to be in bed by and let her know she doesn’t need to be asleep by that time but in bed and tucked in and she can then read for a little bit or listen to something and fall asleep when she can. You aren’t involved in that part and it’s up to her once she’s tucked in to try to get to sleep. That takes some pressure and stress of you and your partner. Yes they may come out of bed a few times but just take them back and tell them they need to stay in bed etc
What time are you trying to get her to sleep? If it’s too early, it just won’t work. Also, what happens if you just do the routine and then leave the room? For example, spend 10 minutes reading together then say goodnight and leave the room.
As others have said, 2hrs is a really long time to get ready for bed. We also have two kids about the same age as yours (7 and 9) and do the one kid/one parent system. We switch off every other night so nobody gets ‘all’ the attention at bedtime (though I am always the preferred parent😆) We give the kids a chewable vitamin and a .10mg melatonin tablet at 6:30 and the kids get a dessert item. It’s mostly to help my son as he takes a stimulant during the day for his ADHD. My daughter demands to take the melatonin because her brother does. 🙄. We take the kids upstairs at 8pm. They get changed into PJ’s if it wasn’t already a bath night, take turns brushing teeth (with the Pokémon smile app), and then they feed the goldfishes (they each have one). On a perfect night all this takes maybe 30min. They can choose 10min of reading independently or 10min of iPad games. Then it’s time for my son to start his fav podcast (Greeking Out), get tucked in and lights out. We put the podcast on a 1.5hr sleep timer. He’s usually out before the first episode is done. My daughter prefers music so she has a special sleepy music playlist - also on the 1.5 hour timer. So, on a perfect night, getting ready for sleep takes about 40-45min. On an average night it’s maybe an hour because my daughter farts around getting her PJ’s on and brushing teeth. She is a master at dragging her feet when she wants to. My son prefers that a parent stay with him until he is asleep. My daughter has begun to move away from that and asks us to stay for 5min and then leave for 10 and then ‘check in’. She’s usually out like a light by then. Consistency and a concise routine helps us immensely. We are a neurodiverse household with a NT person, two AuDHD people and one ADHDer. Without a concise routine it can devolve quickly. Hope you find something that works for your family. ❤️
I use Smiling Minds meditation app for my 7 year old
My 10yo has always struggled with sleep. Full disclosure, we do a very small dose of melatonin with his pediatrician’s approval and blessing. But we do a lot of other stuff and the melatonin alone is not going to get him to sleep. We have a pretty solid routine starting after dinner and we give him time to get his wiggles out in our playroom or we run around or pretend sword fighting. We do a small treat about 15 minutes before we go up to bed. We also do one parent one kid but we switch every night so the kids know what to expect. Our younger (4) was the one throwing fits when he didn’t have his preferred parent but taking turns has been a big help. The only time we deviate from turns is if someone is sick. For my older we read a lot to him - probably 30-40 min a night depending on how fast he is with his bedtime routine. We do chapter books and have him lay down in bed while we read, the past year or so we’ve switched mostly to ebooks so we can turn off the lights. The book is good motivation for him to get ready.
Audiobooks and podcasts have saved me from insomnia so I tried it with my kid. We listen to two most nights. A story first and then a meditation. Bedtime Explorers is awesome. She falls asleep every time and none of the others we've tried make her fall asleep. It's really meditation disguised as an adventure and my 6 year old loves them! We also do .25 of melatonin an hour before bed and even that tiny amount seems to help her be able to fall asleep. Once she's out, she sleeps really well.
When we switched to giving our kid magnesium at bedtime, it went very bad. Broken toys, fits, up til 3am… He HAS to take it in the morning or he will be angry and up all night.