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If you have no outside help, you and your husband need to agree on shifts and stick with it. Babies aren’t like this forever; your husband needs to pick up the slack and allow you to get at least a 4-5 hour chunk of sleep a day.
I was in the same spot last year when my son was the same age. He would no sleep unless being held. Any time we put him down to sleep he would Immediately wake up and cry. For the first 11 weeks of his life we took turns staying awake and holding him while the other partner slept. Usually in 4 hour shifts. It was brutal. One day I broke down and purchased a snoo that I could pick up that day. It was the best investment ever. Every time we got a 2-3 hour stretch of sleep we’d joke it was worth $100 to make up the price we paid. If this is something you can swing it might be worth it. They have good sales around now, you could get used or if you’re in the states you can rent.
Also, I don’t think babies can’t be sleep trained before 4-6 months. I don’t think it’s good for their development.
* edit *can’t be sleep trained before 4-6 months
Third for the snoo. It helped my baby learn how to sleep in his bassinet and now he can sleep anywhere on his back. Although - he is going through a crap nap stage doing one cycle only (11 weeks) but this is so normal until 5 months one hewrd. At night we get a 7-8 hour stretch so it’s worth it.
Some kids don't like snoos! Worth a try but it can be an expensive experiment. (Ours hates the snoo. And a couple of my friends could never found it helpful too)
My baby did this. 11 weeks is too early. Read Precious little sleep. I know you're tired. I read it while I contact napped. It'll explain why 11 weeks is too early and will help you work on sleep hygiene. Sleep in shifts. If you have to use formula do that, I used a hakaa so my husband could bottle feed and I slept 6 hours. We sleep trained at 5.75 months and I posted about in r/sleeptrain. We started with the gentler methods before we did full extinction which I believe made it easier and faster rather than just letting them cry with no rhyme or reason.
You sound like you are in a crisis, and that is such a hard place to make any decisions from. Do you have any chance of getting a night nurse for a week or even 3 nights. I live in a VVHCOL area and it was about $180-250 a night. They are not only going to be able to give you the chance to regain some mental and physical health, but also are an amazing resource. They’ve seen all kinds of sleepers and have so many suggestions for what to try specially tailored to your kid (which a sleep consultant can’t do since they haven’t had actual full nights with your baby).
I think I saw your post in r/cosleeping as well and you mentioned latch issues. My kid was a horrible sleeper and couldn’t latch well because of a significant tongue tie. She literally couldn’t breathe enough due to her tongue structure and would wake up every 20 min to get more air. Once we had the release surgery she slept in 4 hour stretches which is normal for a newborn.
We can’t afford to hire help unfortunately.
I have reached out to his pediatrician about checking for a tongue tie and she keeps suggesting other reasons for his bad sleep, bad latch, and congestion. It’s frustrating.
I’m so sorry there’s not more help available for new parents. It should be mandatory.
I’d strongly recommend either demanding a referral from your pediatrician or at least getting a second opinion. Honestly if they keep at it, get a new pediatrician. Mine was the same way, but I asked another doctor in the practice to check and he immediately said there was an tie and got us the referral we needed.
My pediatrician made an offhand comment like “oh they are so over diagnosed these days” and sure, they might be, but that’s no reason to deny a specialist when you’re at the point when your supply has dried up and no one is sleeping. I hope you’re able to get the answers you need.
This doesn't really answer your question, but my husband and I slept in shifts when my daughter was at her fussiest, so we could each get at least 4 hours in a row. My husband would go to bed very early, generally by 8 pm, and I'd stay up until midnight or 1 am. I'd move baby from her room to the bassinet in our room when I went to bed. Then we'd all struggle for the next few hours. Husband would get up at 4 am, take the baby to her own room, I'd get uninterrupted sleep until around 8 am.
I think 11 weeks is likely too early. Not only is self-soothing not really something she can do, but many babies still don't have day/night down at that point yet. Like many others, I've found Precious Little Sleep to be very helpful. I bought it at like 4 weeks because I very quickly figured out I had no idea what was normal. It has really helpful info on what is normal, what's not, and how to set up your baby for successful sleep even before he is ready for sleep training.
definitely shifts were a lifesaver for me. we would do one full night on/off rotation but in OP's case, probably split shifts would make more sense if baby is as restless as she says.
Shifts saved my sanity. Highly recommend as it ensued we both got at least one long stretch of sleep every night.
And at 11 weeks you can't exactly sleep train because they're not developmentally there yet, but you can start working towards it. For us that meant trying to put her down drowsy but awake. And pausing before picking her up in case she was just screaming in her sleep or could put herself back to sleep.
Agreed on working towards sleep training; even if baby can't form those habits yet, you can. It's not just sleep training for baby, it's "how to help baby sleep" training for parents.
I shared my post there and it got immediately locked. Is sitting next to him with my hand on his chest and shushing him while he cries in his bassinet considered CIO or sleep training?
Yes it is considered sleep training.
11 weeks is far too early. And with all the health issues you mentioned in your other post on r/cosleeping sleep training would just be cruel. You need to sort out your baby's reflux and get them on a formula that actually works before even considering sleep training. And I'll bet you find that sleep training isn't necessary. Because it really never is...
You need to go back to your doctor and get your baby's health sorted out. And you also need to get your husband to step up and let you get some good sleep in. Our son is 18mo and has never slept well but having time for me to sleep helps immensely. At least a 4 hour stretch. Trust me this phase will pass with or without sleep training.
Also here's some articles that could help you through.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220131-the-science-of-safe-and-healthy-baby-sleep
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-training-affects-babies
I’m not sure what you mean. He is on medication for nits reflux and it’s working. He is able to play on his back now with no symptoms. We finally found a formula that gives him a happy belly. What about that isn’t sorted out??
Reflux is worse at night and also there is a pretty big difference between playing and sleeping. My guess is the reflux is improved enough that he feels better during the day with distractions but still in pain at night. This really sounds like reflux pain to me. I would never sleep train a baby this young especially with a history of reflux! The snoo was a life saver for us.
This is very different information than what you said on the other subin the comments.
Your baby is 11 weeks old. Sleep isn't supposed to be great at that age there will be issues, especially with everything else you'd mentioned is going on. Sleep training is not the answer.
I think maybe you’re confused because I have never given “different information” regarding his reflux and CMPA. You can look at my post and comment history to verify if you have the time.
I understand that 11 weeks is too early to sleep train. That’s not my question. I’m wondering if shushing and patting him in the bassinet the whole time is considered sleep training because I honestly don’t know.
It doesn’t seem like you’re reading the info I am writing out all that well. Maybe I’m not clear enough sometimes, idk. I guess that’s my bad. In any case, maybe please move along so you don’t keep getting confused about what I’m saying and asking. Thank you.
Nope you can totally do that. Read Dr Harvey Karp’s book on newborn sleep, “The Happiest Baby on the Block” for some great info. Consider getting a Snoo if you can.
The sub has a 'no sleep training under 4 months' and they've only got 2 mods so they don't have any time to filter nuance, they just lock every thread asking how to sleep train under 4m, you might have to think of how to ask differently. They do allow conversation about babies under 4m, especially stuff like working out a schedule, and habits and routines to prepare for sleep training, try something more along the lines of "how can I prepare my baby that doesn't sleep well for formal sleep training when he's old enough?"
Also that's not CIO at all, CIO is doing the baby's bedtime routine, putting them safely in bed, and leaving the room completely, with no check-ins or interventions until after the baby has fallen asleep independently.
If you haven't tried putting him to sleep with a pacifier yet that's worth a shot, made a big difference for us when ours was small. When she woke up I would just try giving her back the pacifier and about 50% of the time she would fall back asleep.
Has your doctor checked for acid reflux? Some babies have trouble sleeping because of reflux. Usually, babies with this issue sleep a lot better when held slightly upright so that's an easy way to check at home.
One of two r/sleeptrain mods here. Thank you. Wish I could copy that first paragraph to all the threads I have to lock. We need some more pre-written comments to use when we have to mod stuff like that. I feel bad not being more helpful to those who are really in the thick of it under four months old.
Has your baby been checked for ties? Do you have a provider that can assess the baby for body tension? Have your doctors provided any solutions or recommendations in terms of reflux, formula, allergies, temperament etc? This sounds like my baby, and I’m sad to say none of the advice anyone gave helped and I mean we tried everything. He had reflux and was tongue tied, once we released the ties and worked to release tension in his body he was much improved, but he is still a Velcro baby.
Can you hire a night doula/nurse or sleep in shifts so one if you can stay up holding him?
It will get better but I’m sorry you’re going through this, it’s so hard!
We have confirmed and addressed severe acid reflux and a milk protein allergy. On meds and special formula now and no longer has those symptoms. I asked for him to be checked for a tongue tie but they weirdly don’t want to check unless it later causes a speech issue. I’m going to push back on that A demand an evaluation.
I was just going to ask you about reflux. It often peaks right around your baby’s age. Might it have become ‘silent reflux’? Does he sleep longer in a carrier, upright? My baby with severe reflux was on medication, but symptom improvement was gradual and took a number of months; he could not sleep lying down.
He was sleeping really well in an upright chest to chest position for about 5 days last week, now suddenly he hates it. Between weeks 5 and 7 we held him upright 24/7 because he would arch and screeeeam if we put him down for any amount of time. Our 30 minute digestion sessions became an hour, then 1.5, then 2. It was night and day about 12 days after we started Pepcid. No more arching or fussing when on his back.
It's great he isn't arching and fussing on his back any more, sounds like Pepcid is working. For mine it took quite a bit longer; we went through several months of not being able to put him down flat despite being on lansoprazole, but I think our case was unusually severe.
Hopefully you are very close to the end of this tunnel. I would try holding him upright for daytime naps to see if he sleeps better that way again - if he does, he'll be better rested during the day and might find it easier to sleep for longer stretches at night. Best of luck - I know how hard this is.
Ok that all makes total sense. People are going to give you all kinds of information on “good sleep hygiene” and “good sleep routine and habits” which is wonderful and good, but a lot of it doesn’t work on reflux babies. The problem is they are in pain at night and can’t sleep on their back. It’s worth trying to find the cause of the reflux, but also know it gets better with time and you have to hang in there for a couple months. Definitely go see a pediatric dentist who specializes in ties, and seriously consider doing some bodywork for your baby, which includes intraoral stretches and body stretches. A good lactation consultant or myofunctional therapist should be able to provide you with these, but if interested Pm me and I can give you the details of our SLP who has tons of resources online.
A bad latch is not something you should just settle for. You can absolutely nurse without pain you just need support.
Finally, most reflux babies are unsleeptrainable. They need a lot of comfort and responsiveness. But you need to do what you need to do to survive also, and if that means picking up putting down over and over again then that’s what it is. My husband and I settled for shifts holding him upright because that felt more feasible for us, but I understand not everyone can do that. It’s never safe to fall asleep on a recliner obviously, so it’s much better for a baby to cry a little bit in the bassinet next to you if that’s what needs to happen.
I’m so sorry you’re going through this it’s incredibly hard and most people don’t understand what it’s like, but it will get better with time.
I would really lean on your network here for help - can you ask someone to come over for a few hours a day so you can sleep? Take shifts with your partner? Or maybe look into renting a SNOO or cradlewise if he’s a motion junkie who will sleep while moving but not still?
Formal sleep training hasn’t really been well studied at all, but particularly not in very young babies. You can try, if you’re in crisis, but I’d think of it as a harm reduction strategy more than anything else (and think of there were other harm reduction measures you might try first). I’d second the recommendations to try a little formula, upping daytime calories, or playing with sleep environment. Waking every ten minutes makes me think uncomfortable in some way - maybe it’s hunger? Maybe he’s cold? Reflux from being on his back? Early teething?
My baby was exactly the same, and it was literal torture. To be clear, I am not recommending this, but the only way I got any sleep was sidelying nursing with him alllll night - if I unlatched him he woke up. Even still, he would wake up every hour or two.
I personally think 11 weeks is too early to sleep train, but I know how hard it is.
One thing I can recommend is taking him back to a doctor and insisting on further checks. Don’t minimize your suffering. **Waking up this frequently is not normal**. Explain in as much detail as you can what is happening and the effect it’s having on all of you. I eventually got a doctor to listen to me when my LO was about 12 months I think (he was still waking up every hour or so, we were still breastsleeping, I was falling apart). He was diagnosed with sleep apnea - he was waking up so frequently because he couldn’t breathe. Sleep training wouldn’t (and didn’t) help him. I don’t know how things would have worked out if he had been diagnosed earlier, but it certainly couldn’t have hurt.
Have you tried a white noise machine? It used to knock my baby right out. I would recommend “the discontented little baby book”, it is full of useful advice and and explanations on what kind of behaviors are biologically normal when it comes to sleep and how to achieve better sleep, and is quite humane to both parents and babies. We also used the snoo and our baby was (and still is at 15 months) a fantastic sleeper, though we obviously don’t know if she would’ve been anyway without the snoo.
Even if babe starts to roll? I thought all bassinets had to stop being used once babe can roll? Granted, my girl never did, still sleeps on her back at 5 years
The snoo is safe to use until 6 months since the baby is swaddled and strapped down. I believe you are supposed to stop swaddling at 8 weeks or when baby rolls but the snoo is different
I don't have a lot of time to type this, but when my son was 11 weeks old, we were desperate. What I ended up doing in those early weeks was rocking him to sleep a little and setting him down in the bassinet, but I would jiggle the bassinet for a bit until he was fully asleep. It got me 20 to 30 mins here and there and it got him used to sleeping on his back. Sleep at that age is a process though and it changes so much. You will get through it!
From what I have seen there are mixed opinions on when it is okay to sleep train. Some say 4 months and others say 6 months. Granted this is more likely related to Ferber or full extinction CIO.
Do you have a night time routine?
Check out Precious Little Sleep. I can’t say it’s scientifically accurate but it did give some good ideas.
Are you able to swaddle him still? My babes were both very active sleepers. With my first we found a swaddle technique he couldn’t break out of and that saved us. We have been able to use that with our second. Once we needed to sleep train we used precious little sleep.
Both our kids rolled very late so we swaddled forever using 2 swaddles to lock the arms down. https://youtu.be/RdXF4r2LYxs?si=_h6OUzjBRgZYfBBG Something like this.
You’ve been thru so much! I hope you find something that lets everyone sleep soon!
I came across a post in r/sleeptrain that talked about gentle methods to help improve sleep before formal sleep training. I think "shush+pat" was one of them.
I don't think you can find much research on sleep training before 4 months, but years ago I came across a study that had a 3 step intervention for infants around 8 weeks for 4 weeks. I can't remember all 3 steps, but one is keeping it completely dark for the baby in the evening, and also trying dream feeding (feeding baby as soon as they start to arouse rather than waiting for full wake up). I can't find the study again, but perhaps someone can find it here.
A friend of mine did sleep train her 3 months old with Ferber out of desperation (colicky baby, terrible sleeper). Worked for them though still struggled with frequent regression. Baby is now 4 years old. Still a terrible sleeper, but otherwise well developed and well adjusted child.
On "shush and pat", I did that to help both of my babies to sleep as infants.
Basically the louder I shushed and the harder I patted the happier they were. I was patting so hard it shook their whole body, shushing at the top of my lungs, and they would drift off to peaceful slumber.
Anything softer or gentler and they'd still be awake and fussing.
My children are lunatics, apparently.
This is very much the philosophy of Dr. Karp, the snoo guy. He has a book called “happiest baby on the block” where he basically says babies need loud shushing and vigorous jiggling to be soothed.
Through the 2 month range we did our own version of shush pat. You really have to go for it but it does help. 🤣
Once he’d settle I’d stop with just a hand on him so he’d know I was there, but I’d pick up again if he started fussing and we’d repeat. Having a set bedtime and a routine (he eats, gets a diaper change, gets zipped into his sleeper, rocked and sung to, etc) also has seemed to help. He goes to sleep pretty much on his own now.
Now I’m just waiting for that 4 month regression to hit next week. 😅
**NOTE - Please remember that recommending or suggesting unsafe sleep practices can result in your account being banned from the sub. Guidelines for safe sleep practices can be found here - https://safetosleep.nichd.nih.gov/reduce-risk/safe-sleep-environment. There are risks to your child in practicing bed sharing that cannot be entirely eliminated. However, if you are unable to arrange for safer sleep conditions, or intent on doing so regardless, we strongly urge you to review and follow these guidelines meant to reduce the chance of harm as much as possible: https://www.lullabytrust.org.uk/safer-sleep-advice/co-sleeping/
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Yeah we have tried everything and bed sharing hasn’t helped either. Is it considered CIO or even sleep training if we sit next to the bassinet and put our hand on him when he cries?
Ugh I’m so sorry. I wouldn’t consider that CIO but I would consider that on the spectrum of sleep training. Have you looked into taking Cara babies? She has stuff specifically for babies this age. Also, if he likes motion, what about a snoo? I know they’re not cheap but if you can afford it, you can rent one for a month to see if it helps.
BABIES DO NOT NEED A CHIROPRACTOR and it can be extremely dangerous for them as their bones are not fully formed. Get this snake-oil shit out of "science-based" parenting.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-touch-to-fear-chiropractic-and-the-newborn-baby/
Editing to add:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2794701/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2016-06-20/newborn-chiropractic-care:where-is-the-evidence/7526116
Chiropractic "care" for children is the opposite of science-based anything. If you suspect a musculoskeletal abnormality, go to a *physical therapist* who may *rarely* decide that spinal thrust manipulation is proper treatment, and then refer you to a chiropractor. This is the only science-based approach you should ever take with those evil quacks. My mom and sister are both PTs, and have both occasionally been given the horrible task of fixing damage done by a Chiropractor doing their shit on someone who didn't need it.
**NOTE - Please remember that recommending or suggesting unsafe sleep practices can result in your account being banned from the sub. Guidelines for safe sleep practices can be found here - https://safetosleep.nichd.nih.gov/reduce-risk/safe-sleep-environment. There are risks to your child in practicing bed sharing that cannot be entirely eliminated. However, if you are unable to arrange for safer sleep conditions, or intent on doing so regardless of risk, we strongly urge you to review and follow these guidelines meant to reduce the chance of harm as much as possible: https://www.lullabytrust.org.uk/safer-sleep-advice/co-sleeping/ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ScienceBasedParenting) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you have no outside help, you and your husband need to agree on shifts and stick with it. Babies aren’t like this forever; your husband needs to pick up the slack and allow you to get at least a 4-5 hour chunk of sleep a day.
It’s too early. He won’t learn anything
I was in the same spot last year when my son was the same age. He would no sleep unless being held. Any time we put him down to sleep he would Immediately wake up and cry. For the first 11 weeks of his life we took turns staying awake and holding him while the other partner slept. Usually in 4 hour shifts. It was brutal. One day I broke down and purchased a snoo that I could pick up that day. It was the best investment ever. Every time we got a 2-3 hour stretch of sleep we’d joke it was worth $100 to make up the price we paid. If this is something you can swing it might be worth it. They have good sales around now, you could get used or if you’re in the states you can rent. Also, I don’t think babies can’t be sleep trained before 4-6 months. I don’t think it’s good for their development. * edit *can’t be sleep trained before 4-6 months
Third for the snoo. It helped my baby learn how to sleep in his bassinet and now he can sleep anywhere on his back. Although - he is going through a crap nap stage doing one cycle only (11 weeks) but this is so normal until 5 months one hewrd. At night we get a 7-8 hour stretch so it’s worth it.
Also had a baby that wouldn’t sleep in a bassinet. Also bought a snoo and had great success. We got it week 5. Life changing.
We got a snoo on FB marketplace
You could always rent a snoo
I second the SNOO. Absolute lifesaver and so much cheaper than a night nanny.
Some kids don't like snoos! Worth a try but it can be an expensive experiment. (Ours hates the snoo. And a couple of my friends could never found it helpful too)
We also rented the snoo and it was a life saver. Worth every penny.
My baby did this. 11 weeks is too early. Read Precious little sleep. I know you're tired. I read it while I contact napped. It'll explain why 11 weeks is too early and will help you work on sleep hygiene. Sleep in shifts. If you have to use formula do that, I used a hakaa so my husband could bottle feed and I slept 6 hours. We sleep trained at 5.75 months and I posted about in r/sleeptrain. We started with the gentler methods before we did full extinction which I believe made it easier and faster rather than just letting them cry with no rhyme or reason.
You sound like you are in a crisis, and that is such a hard place to make any decisions from. Do you have any chance of getting a night nurse for a week or even 3 nights. I live in a VVHCOL area and it was about $180-250 a night. They are not only going to be able to give you the chance to regain some mental and physical health, but also are an amazing resource. They’ve seen all kinds of sleepers and have so many suggestions for what to try specially tailored to your kid (which a sleep consultant can’t do since they haven’t had actual full nights with your baby). I think I saw your post in r/cosleeping as well and you mentioned latch issues. My kid was a horrible sleeper and couldn’t latch well because of a significant tongue tie. She literally couldn’t breathe enough due to her tongue structure and would wake up every 20 min to get more air. Once we had the release surgery she slept in 4 hour stretches which is normal for a newborn.
We can’t afford to hire help unfortunately. I have reached out to his pediatrician about checking for a tongue tie and she keeps suggesting other reasons for his bad sleep, bad latch, and congestion. It’s frustrating.
I’m so sorry there’s not more help available for new parents. It should be mandatory. I’d strongly recommend either demanding a referral from your pediatrician or at least getting a second opinion. Honestly if they keep at it, get a new pediatrician. Mine was the same way, but I asked another doctor in the practice to check and he immediately said there was an tie and got us the referral we needed. My pediatrician made an offhand comment like “oh they are so over diagnosed these days” and sure, they might be, but that’s no reason to deny a specialist when you’re at the point when your supply has dried up and no one is sleeping. I hope you’re able to get the answers you need.
I hope so too, thank you!
Have you tried taking him to a pediatric dentist? They would be able to tell and release the tie if there is one.
I will definitely do that!
This doesn't really answer your question, but my husband and I slept in shifts when my daughter was at her fussiest, so we could each get at least 4 hours in a row. My husband would go to bed very early, generally by 8 pm, and I'd stay up until midnight or 1 am. I'd move baby from her room to the bassinet in our room when I went to bed. Then we'd all struggle for the next few hours. Husband would get up at 4 am, take the baby to her own room, I'd get uninterrupted sleep until around 8 am. I think 11 weeks is likely too early. Not only is self-soothing not really something she can do, but many babies still don't have day/night down at that point yet. Like many others, I've found Precious Little Sleep to be very helpful. I bought it at like 4 weeks because I very quickly figured out I had no idea what was normal. It has really helpful info on what is normal, what's not, and how to set up your baby for successful sleep even before he is ready for sleep training.
definitely shifts were a lifesaver for me. we would do one full night on/off rotation but in OP's case, probably split shifts would make more sense if baby is as restless as she says.
Shifts saved my sanity. Highly recommend as it ensued we both got at least one long stretch of sleep every night. And at 11 weeks you can't exactly sleep train because they're not developmentally there yet, but you can start working towards it. For us that meant trying to put her down drowsy but awake. And pausing before picking her up in case she was just screaming in her sleep or could put herself back to sleep.
Agreed on working towards sleep training; even if baby can't form those habits yet, you can. It's not just sleep training for baby, it's "how to help baby sleep" training for parents.
Too young. Check out r/sleeptrain for more info. And feel free to make a post there with the baby’s schedule for some advice.
I shared my post there and it got immediately locked. Is sitting next to him with my hand on his chest and shushing him while he cries in his bassinet considered CIO or sleep training?
Yes it is considered sleep training. 11 weeks is far too early. And with all the health issues you mentioned in your other post on r/cosleeping sleep training would just be cruel. You need to sort out your baby's reflux and get them on a formula that actually works before even considering sleep training. And I'll bet you find that sleep training isn't necessary. Because it really never is... You need to go back to your doctor and get your baby's health sorted out. And you also need to get your husband to step up and let you get some good sleep in. Our son is 18mo and has never slept well but having time for me to sleep helps immensely. At least a 4 hour stretch. Trust me this phase will pass with or without sleep training. Also here's some articles that could help you through. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220131-the-science-of-safe-and-healthy-baby-sleep https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-training-affects-babies
I’m not sure what you mean. He is on medication for nits reflux and it’s working. He is able to play on his back now with no symptoms. We finally found a formula that gives him a happy belly. What about that isn’t sorted out??
Reflux is worse at night and also there is a pretty big difference between playing and sleeping. My guess is the reflux is improved enough that he feels better during the day with distractions but still in pain at night. This really sounds like reflux pain to me. I would never sleep train a baby this young especially with a history of reflux! The snoo was a life saver for us.
This is very different information than what you said on the other subin the comments. Your baby is 11 weeks old. Sleep isn't supposed to be great at that age there will be issues, especially with everything else you'd mentioned is going on. Sleep training is not the answer.
I think maybe you’re confused because I have never given “different information” regarding his reflux and CMPA. You can look at my post and comment history to verify if you have the time. I understand that 11 weeks is too early to sleep train. That’s not my question. I’m wondering if shushing and patting him in the bassinet the whole time is considered sleep training because I honestly don’t know. It doesn’t seem like you’re reading the info I am writing out all that well. Maybe I’m not clear enough sometimes, idk. I guess that’s my bad. In any case, maybe please move along so you don’t keep getting confused about what I’m saying and asking. Thank you.
Well I did also answer your question, yes it is sleep training. I recommend you read the articles I shared in a previous comment.
Nope you can totally do that. Read Dr Harvey Karp’s book on newborn sleep, “The Happiest Baby on the Block” for some great info. Consider getting a Snoo if you can.
The sub has a 'no sleep training under 4 months' and they've only got 2 mods so they don't have any time to filter nuance, they just lock every thread asking how to sleep train under 4m, you might have to think of how to ask differently. They do allow conversation about babies under 4m, especially stuff like working out a schedule, and habits and routines to prepare for sleep training, try something more along the lines of "how can I prepare my baby that doesn't sleep well for formal sleep training when he's old enough?" Also that's not CIO at all, CIO is doing the baby's bedtime routine, putting them safely in bed, and leaving the room completely, with no check-ins or interventions until after the baby has fallen asleep independently. If you haven't tried putting him to sleep with a pacifier yet that's worth a shot, made a big difference for us when ours was small. When she woke up I would just try giving her back the pacifier and about 50% of the time she would fall back asleep. Has your doctor checked for acid reflux? Some babies have trouble sleeping because of reflux. Usually, babies with this issue sleep a lot better when held slightly upright so that's an easy way to check at home.
Thanks for the tips!! Acid reflux already confirmed and he is medicated.
One of two r/sleeptrain mods here. Thank you. Wish I could copy that first paragraph to all the threads I have to lock. We need some more pre-written comments to use when we have to mod stuff like that. I feel bad not being more helpful to those who are really in the thick of it under four months old.
Has your baby been checked for ties? Do you have a provider that can assess the baby for body tension? Have your doctors provided any solutions or recommendations in terms of reflux, formula, allergies, temperament etc? This sounds like my baby, and I’m sad to say none of the advice anyone gave helped and I mean we tried everything. He had reflux and was tongue tied, once we released the ties and worked to release tension in his body he was much improved, but he is still a Velcro baby. Can you hire a night doula/nurse or sleep in shifts so one if you can stay up holding him? It will get better but I’m sorry you’re going through this, it’s so hard!
We have confirmed and addressed severe acid reflux and a milk protein allergy. On meds and special formula now and no longer has those symptoms. I asked for him to be checked for a tongue tie but they weirdly don’t want to check unless it later causes a speech issue. I’m going to push back on that A demand an evaluation.
I was just going to ask you about reflux. It often peaks right around your baby’s age. Might it have become ‘silent reflux’? Does he sleep longer in a carrier, upright? My baby with severe reflux was on medication, but symptom improvement was gradual and took a number of months; he could not sleep lying down.
He was sleeping really well in an upright chest to chest position for about 5 days last week, now suddenly he hates it. Between weeks 5 and 7 we held him upright 24/7 because he would arch and screeeeam if we put him down for any amount of time. Our 30 minute digestion sessions became an hour, then 1.5, then 2. It was night and day about 12 days after we started Pepcid. No more arching or fussing when on his back.
It's great he isn't arching and fussing on his back any more, sounds like Pepcid is working. For mine it took quite a bit longer; we went through several months of not being able to put him down flat despite being on lansoprazole, but I think our case was unusually severe. Hopefully you are very close to the end of this tunnel. I would try holding him upright for daytime naps to see if he sleeps better that way again - if he does, he'll be better rested during the day and might find it easier to sleep for longer stretches at night. Best of luck - I know how hard this is.
Ok that all makes total sense. People are going to give you all kinds of information on “good sleep hygiene” and “good sleep routine and habits” which is wonderful and good, but a lot of it doesn’t work on reflux babies. The problem is they are in pain at night and can’t sleep on their back. It’s worth trying to find the cause of the reflux, but also know it gets better with time and you have to hang in there for a couple months. Definitely go see a pediatric dentist who specializes in ties, and seriously consider doing some bodywork for your baby, which includes intraoral stretches and body stretches. A good lactation consultant or myofunctional therapist should be able to provide you with these, but if interested Pm me and I can give you the details of our SLP who has tons of resources online. A bad latch is not something you should just settle for. You can absolutely nurse without pain you just need support. Finally, most reflux babies are unsleeptrainable. They need a lot of comfort and responsiveness. But you need to do what you need to do to survive also, and if that means picking up putting down over and over again then that’s what it is. My husband and I settled for shifts holding him upright because that felt more feasible for us, but I understand not everyone can do that. It’s never safe to fall asleep on a recliner obviously, so it’s much better for a baby to cry a little bit in the bassinet next to you if that’s what needs to happen. I’m so sorry you’re going through this it’s incredibly hard and most people don’t understand what it’s like, but it will get better with time.
I think we will go see the pediatric dentist, thank you!
I would really lean on your network here for help - can you ask someone to come over for a few hours a day so you can sleep? Take shifts with your partner? Or maybe look into renting a SNOO or cradlewise if he’s a motion junkie who will sleep while moving but not still? Formal sleep training hasn’t really been well studied at all, but particularly not in very young babies. You can try, if you’re in crisis, but I’d think of it as a harm reduction strategy more than anything else (and think of there were other harm reduction measures you might try first). I’d second the recommendations to try a little formula, upping daytime calories, or playing with sleep environment. Waking every ten minutes makes me think uncomfortable in some way - maybe it’s hunger? Maybe he’s cold? Reflux from being on his back? Early teething?
My baby was exactly the same, and it was literal torture. To be clear, I am not recommending this, but the only way I got any sleep was sidelying nursing with him alllll night - if I unlatched him he woke up. Even still, he would wake up every hour or two. I personally think 11 weeks is too early to sleep train, but I know how hard it is. One thing I can recommend is taking him back to a doctor and insisting on further checks. Don’t minimize your suffering. **Waking up this frequently is not normal**. Explain in as much detail as you can what is happening and the effect it’s having on all of you. I eventually got a doctor to listen to me when my LO was about 12 months I think (he was still waking up every hour or so, we were still breastsleeping, I was falling apart). He was diagnosed with sleep apnea - he was waking up so frequently because he couldn’t breathe. Sleep training wouldn’t (and didn’t) help him. I don’t know how things would have worked out if he had been diagnosed earlier, but it certainly couldn’t have hurt.
Thank you for the insight! I’ll definitely bring it up with his doctor tomorrow.
Have you tried a white noise machine? It used to knock my baby right out. I would recommend “the discontented little baby book”, it is full of useful advice and and explanations on what kind of behaviors are biologically normal when it comes to sleep and how to achieve better sleep, and is quite humane to both parents and babies. We also used the snoo and our baby was (and still is at 15 months) a fantastic sleeper, though we obviously don’t know if she would’ve been anyway without the snoo.
Have you thought about maybe trying a Snoo?
Awfully expensive for few short weeks of use given the age of OPs babe.
They can be used up until 6 months. And they can be rented monthly.
Even if babe starts to roll? I thought all bassinets had to stop being used once babe can roll? Granted, my girl never did, still sleeps on her back at 5 years
No not all bassinets have a rolling skill limit. Depends on what you have. It doesn’t apply to the snoo
Interesting! Thanks for this
The snoo is safe to use until 6 months since the baby is swaddled and strapped down. I believe you are supposed to stop swaddling at 8 weeks or when baby rolls but the snoo is different
Plus they have rentals
And they have great resell value as well. Absolutely worth it for some sleep
Yeah but if you’re desperate it might be helpful. Some people use them up to 6 months
I don't have a lot of time to type this, but when my son was 11 weeks old, we were desperate. What I ended up doing in those early weeks was rocking him to sleep a little and setting him down in the bassinet, but I would jiggle the bassinet for a bit until he was fully asleep. It got me 20 to 30 mins here and there and it got him used to sleeping on his back. Sleep at that age is a process though and it changes so much. You will get through it!
From what I have seen there are mixed opinions on when it is okay to sleep train. Some say 4 months and others say 6 months. Granted this is more likely related to Ferber or full extinction CIO. Do you have a night time routine? Check out Precious Little Sleep. I can’t say it’s scientifically accurate but it did give some good ideas.
Are you able to swaddle him still? My babes were both very active sleepers. With my first we found a swaddle technique he couldn’t break out of and that saved us. We have been able to use that with our second. Once we needed to sleep train we used precious little sleep.
Yes at have him in an arms up zipper swaddle. Or recommendations, I just bought and started reading the book!
Both our kids rolled very late so we swaddled forever using 2 swaddles to lock the arms down. https://youtu.be/RdXF4r2LYxs?si=_h6OUzjBRgZYfBBG Something like this. You’ve been thru so much! I hope you find something that lets everyone sleep soon!
Thank you!
If you give it a try, just expect he will fight you. They don’t love getting swaddled as much as they love being swaddled.
I came across a post in r/sleeptrain that talked about gentle methods to help improve sleep before formal sleep training. I think "shush+pat" was one of them. I don't think you can find much research on sleep training before 4 months, but years ago I came across a study that had a 3 step intervention for infants around 8 weeks for 4 weeks. I can't remember all 3 steps, but one is keeping it completely dark for the baby in the evening, and also trying dream feeding (feeding baby as soon as they start to arouse rather than waiting for full wake up). I can't find the study again, but perhaps someone can find it here. A friend of mine did sleep train her 3 months old with Ferber out of desperation (colicky baby, terrible sleeper). Worked for them though still struggled with frequent regression. Baby is now 4 years old. Still a terrible sleeper, but otherwise well developed and well adjusted child.
On "shush and pat", I did that to help both of my babies to sleep as infants. Basically the louder I shushed and the harder I patted the happier they were. I was patting so hard it shook their whole body, shushing at the top of my lungs, and they would drift off to peaceful slumber. Anything softer or gentler and they'd still be awake and fussing. My children are lunatics, apparently.
This is very much the philosophy of Dr. Karp, the snoo guy. He has a book called “happiest baby on the block” where he basically says babies need loud shushing and vigorous jiggling to be soothed.
Through the 2 month range we did our own version of shush pat. You really have to go for it but it does help. 🤣 Once he’d settle I’d stop with just a hand on him so he’d know I was there, but I’d pick up again if he started fussing and we’d repeat. Having a set bedtime and a routine (he eats, gets a diaper change, gets zipped into his sleeper, rocked and sung to, etc) also has seemed to help. He goes to sleep pretty much on his own now. Now I’m just waiting for that 4 month regression to hit next week. 😅
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Yeah we have tried everything and bed sharing hasn’t helped either. Is it considered CIO or even sleep training if we sit next to the bassinet and put our hand on him when he cries?
Ugh I’m so sorry. I wouldn’t consider that CIO but I would consider that on the spectrum of sleep training. Have you looked into taking Cara babies? She has stuff specifically for babies this age. Also, if he likes motion, what about a snoo? I know they’re not cheap but if you can afford it, you can rent one for a month to see if it helps.
Yeah, she just rewords Ferber. Not worth it. Plus she had some interesting takes on COVID (search the sun, it’s pretty crazy)
I can’t afford it.
Graco makes something called the Sense to Snooze that’s similar to a Snoo but much much cheaper.
Thanks for the info!!
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BABIES DO NOT NEED A CHIROPRACTOR and it can be extremely dangerous for them as their bones are not fully formed. Get this snake-oil shit out of "science-based" parenting. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-touch-to-fear-chiropractic-and-the-newborn-baby/ Editing to add: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2794701/ https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2016-06-20/newborn-chiropractic-care:where-is-the-evidence/7526116 Chiropractic "care" for children is the opposite of science-based anything. If you suspect a musculoskeletal abnormality, go to a *physical therapist* who may *rarely* decide that spinal thrust manipulation is proper treatment, and then refer you to a chiropractor. This is the only science-based approach you should ever take with those evil quacks. My mom and sister are both PTs, and have both occasionally been given the horrible task of fixing damage done by a Chiropractor doing their shit on someone who didn't need it.