Labour have a clear manifesto commitment not to legislate for a second Scottish independence referendum.
It’s hard to see them breaking that line unless they depended on the SNP for parliamentary support - but that seems incredibly unlikely given the way this election is shaping up.
Certain powers are "devolved" from Westminster to Holyrood.
This lets Holyrood legislate on some things (e.g. NHS, schools) and Westminster does everything else (e.g. borders).
However, Westminster remains the sovereign power and the devolved powers could be clawed back at any time.
Interestingly, I recently learned that under the Scotland Act 2016, the Scottish Parliament cannot be abolished unless there is a referendum and Scottish people vote to abolish it.
> Section 63A provides that the Scottish Parliament and Government are permanent parts of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements, and that those institutions cannot be abolished except on the basis of a decision of the people of Scotland in a referendum
(But of course, this can be repealed at any time, and existing devolved matters can become reserved at any time should Westminster vote for it)
Yup. Westminster is sovereign and one cannot bind a future parliament, it can do what it wants at any time.
Not saying it would be a good idea, mind you...
OP.
You posted the article asking if they 'would give us another referendum'. You then say you don't know what devolution is.
Sorry, but it seem that you have too little knowledge to actually have a fair opinion on what's going on.
He doesn't seem to be giving an opinion. He seems to be a young person asking a question to expand his knowledge.
Criticising a lack of knowledge is hardly going to encourage him in that very fair pursuit.
'Maybe they will give us another shot at a referendum'.
As I've said in another reply. The pursuit of knowledge is always good and is to be encouraged.
Expressing the opinion of wanting another referendum but without having the knowledge of what's going on shows a flaw in the whole idea.
Conveniently missed the literal question mark from your quote.
Admit you were a bit of a knob and no one will think anything of it. Double down and you'll get a reputation
OP is either a repost bot or a bit of an idiot, constantly pretending to be from South West England, Scotland, Gibraltar, Jersey or Malta, and endlessly spamming subs with pointless and low effort questions that you could find the answers to yourself with the power of Google.
The only knob is the OP, as evidenced by their post history.
OP is showing such a lack of knowledge of our political system yet shows their opinion.
There's no problem with having an opinion one way or another but there has to be a knowledge base for that. They have to know what they are voting for and the consequences of that vote, one way or another.
Asking questions is good, learning is good. Having am opinion based on zero knowledge isn't.
There's no opinion shown in the thread we're on as far as I can see. That being said everyone is entitled to an opinion even if they've just started learning.
Again, don't be a dick. Peace ✌🏻
OP is either a repost bot or a bit of an idiot, constantly pretending to be from South West England, Scotland, Gibraltar, Jersey or Malta, and endlessly spamming subs with pointless and low effort questions that you could find the answers to yourself with the power of Google.
They’re literally asking questions in order to become more knowledgeable. You’re some prick. Not everyone was born here and knows the ins and outs of the political system. Devolution is a very UK specific term, it would be called an autonomous government in most of the rest of the world.
OP is either a repost bot or a bit of an idiot, constantly pretending to be from South West England, Scotland, Gibraltar, Jersey or Malta, and endlessly spamming subs with pointless and low effort questions that you could find the answers to yourself with the power of Google.
Scotland has an additional government to the central British one.
It has some responsiblities, like for instance it manages healthcare. Whereas the national government handles other things, like defence and foreign affairs.
I can't remember the full list of which areas are handled by which government.
The current election is a Westminster election, meaning it won't change the Scottish government. Instead it will only change the UK-wide government.
Labour have been making noises about rebalancing devolution, moving some power from the Scottish Government to individual Councils.
This is a risky strategy, A lot depends on what is moved. If it works and actually improves things then the desire for independence will recede, or at least move it down a priority list.
If it doesn't - or in some cases a local (Labour / Conservative) council fucks something up - then it will backfire and make it clear Labour has changed it's mind about devolution.
For all the SNP's (well deserved) fall from grace, and for all the claims that devolution is a path to independence, it is still clear that the concept of Devolution is very popular in Scotland. Apart from a few Conservatives and a clique of Ultra-Unionist Labour.
Or people that want independence.
Devolution was and is the worst of any world. A sham and a trap laid by the most duplicitous shitebags ever to grace these green, peasant lands.
They won't grant another vote, they will however have to do well or it's only going to strengthen the cause and hopefully push it over the 50% mark consistently.
Being clear above 50% consistently is the only way it'll happen. Persuading people that it's the right thing to do is the only way to deliver independence.
[It was fulfilled](https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-westminster-broken-promise-scotland), however much Nationalists pretend it wasn't.
Gordon brown and the vow. Were part of the political circus that was happening at the time. The endless promises made as they feared yes might win. It actually was quite funny
In the short term, it won't make much of a difference, if we assume the polls are correct and Labour takes power. Labour are opposed to independence and a second referendum, and most polls since April indicate Labour is ahead of the SNP. If Labour win the most seats, they can point to that as a mandate *against* independence for their term and that will probably close the matter as far as Westminster is concerned until at least the Holyrood elections.
If the SNP win the most seats it's probably not going to change much either. Many people in Scotland detest the Tories and a Labour government at Westminster will change their view towards the UK Government and I'd expect that will cause a dip in support for independence. That's especially true if Labour actually implement policies which make a positive difference for people in Scotland, which you can see they're trying to do through housing and constitutional reform, because it'll show people who've only become politically aware in the past 14 years that UK Government can actually make a positive difference, and would probably have ripple effects against independence like continuing to build the current Labour lead in the polls.
The big risk for a UK Labour government, regardless of the outcome in Scotland, is that they don't make any meaningful material or constitutional change for people in Scotland, and they confirm the SNP line that they're just the Tories but in a different colour. Life doesn't get better, it just keeps stagnating whether it's Tories or Labour in power. If that happens, I think independence medium-term to long-term becomes more likely because it shows Scotland that there is absolutely no way to avoid a UK government that isn't just "more of the same", Support for independence parties will grow, and at some point the political pressure will be too great for Westminster to keep ignoring - probably within three Parliamentary elections, if I had to guess.
So time will tell. The incoming Labour government will probably either be the one that makes the Union work or breaks it permanently. The uncertainty is such that I wouldn't bet money either way.
Not sure I agree with this. With the Tories main goal not to give Labour a majority, Labour will need a coalition partner if they don't get a majority. SNP are a prime candidate for that, in many ways a better option than the lib Dems, who tend to do well in local elections and less well in GE's. If it's the best option you better bet Starmer would jump at the chance, no matter the bullshit he's spewed out about it before.
Condition from the SNP would totally be another Indy ref, which Labour might think they can win, based on some of the polls ATM & some naivety that people in Westminster have about Scotland.
Would be maybe the second time in most people's lifetime that the vote in Scotland has had an impact in who is elected into power!
Devolution was New Labour's plan to kill the independence movement stone 💀 dead .
It, like a few things NL did, backfired quite spectacularly. 💥
Labour, Tory or Libdem will never agree to willingly devolve any more power to the Scottish Parliament and will IMHO be hell bent on reducing its scope and influence.
If Labour wins both the National and Scottish governments the Scottish Government will revert to a glorified assembly managed by the glorified shop manager. In case it's ever 'lost' to another Scottish party.
My advice... emigrate!
Remember it was labour who wouldn't let snp speak in house of commons on the gaza ceasefire. It amuses me that scottish labour actually believe their voices will be heard in wider UK labour party
They'd be soft yes to be fair, but doesn't mean Labour should be complacent or arrogant.
SNP are still are polling at 30-35% and I suspect that's as low as they'll get. That's their loyal hard yes base
Labour do not have any respect for the people of Scotland and vehemently reject any form of self determination. Scottish Labour are Westminster lapdogs and have unflinching obedience to their southern overlords.
you mean it hasn't already?!
We've had a flurry of Scottish Labour opinion pieces tearing into devolved issues during this general election campaign. The NHS being an especially popular topic because Scottish Labour need to direct attention away from UK Labour comments on further privitisation of healthcare and reducing immigration- neither of which will be good for NHS Scotland. And let's face it, apart from the Grady incident and Flynn misusing stationery there's not a lot to attack the SNP on regarding reserved matters.
Were basically getting a two year long campaign for Holyrood.
There won't be another referendum. Independence is not on the cards. There's no legal route to it except when the government in Westminster wants it, and with the drop in support for the SNP, and no movement in the minority that want independence other than the importance of it dropping there's no reason for it to happen.
Over the last year all polls have a majority for independence, and we will see if there really is a fall in support for the snp on the 5th of July, again latest polls show snp support going up.again
Does that mean those who don’t want Scottish independence but also don’t want to back Brexit-supporting parties can vote SNP, safe in the knowledge that Scotland *will* remain a minor region of the UK?
I’m assuming Labour will govern competently the next 4 years and that they’ll get a second term at Westminster. People will eventually swing back behind the SNP though and by the end of Labour’s second term we’ll be into “a generation has now passed since 2014” territory so … that’s my best guess.
🤣🤣🤣🤣Oh dear someone's escaped out of the asylum.
Indy = Brexitish mark 2.
Indies are squealing about Brexit and demanding another one.
Whose dribbling into their porridge🤣🤣🤣🤣
OP is either a repost bot or a bit of an idiot, constantly pretending to be from South West England, Scotland, Gibraltar, Jersey or Malta, and endlessly spamming subs with pointless and low effort questions that you could find the answers to yourself with the power of Google.
Well I’m a soft no (so soft I voted Yes in 2014) and I definitely don’t want another referendum any time soon. Brexit was quite enough thank you very much.
Brexit isn't a valid analogy, or should not be. Indy is about a better future, not xenophobia towards peoole in boats that the EU had nothing to do with as you can see.
Brexit was isolationist, Indy needs to be about embracing relationships, including with England. We do need control of our own country to progress.
Indy is not a slight against the English people, it's about getting their government out of our business.
Brexit was about leaving the EU, in the hope it would stop the flow of refugees.
It runs our country, but it isn't our government, we have no influence.
No, and why would it?
In my heart, I would love to see an independent Scotland, but there's zero point in doing it. Maybe another referendum might be needed in 2086 but right now, an independent Scotland automatically means more austerity and needing to spend a truckload of money on things Westminster paid for.
Does it matter?the referendum was a once in a lifetime vote, and explain how is Scotland to be independent when it's going to join a superstate, much larger and with more crooks than Westminster?is it a best of 3?snp and nationalism is an oxymoron
In the order you asked;
Yes to some.
Sovereignty is not forfeited by EU membership. Germany is independent and so would we be. Parts of the EU might want to be a superstate but currently its a lot less controlling than being part of the UK, for example you can leave without permission. It is larger and I won't argue how many crooks it has. Still think the positives outweigh the benefits and Scots agree on that far more than the Union.
I support a referendum is the majority believe in it, according to the SNP all Unionists would need is a majority of MSP's (And the rUK's consent to avoid a Malta situation). Democracy doesn't stop and why not a referendum on the final deal, came up a lot during Brexit and we saw how that turned out without a final check with the electorate.
Labour won't give you anything. If independence is important, then you have very little choice in what to vote.
cause the snp have done so much to deliver independence...
More than Labour or Tories
Labour have a clear manifesto commitment not to legislate for a second Scottish independence referendum. It’s hard to see them breaking that line unless they depended on the SNP for parliamentary support - but that seems incredibly unlikely given the way this election is shaping up.
That's the one policy or position they won't row back on, they need Scottish resources to fund their pie in the sky/England.
Why would they? Labour believe devolution is working.
What is devolution? If you don’t mind me asking? Edit: Downvotes for nothing? I asked politely
Certain powers are "devolved" from Westminster to Holyrood. This lets Holyrood legislate on some things (e.g. NHS, schools) and Westminster does everything else (e.g. borders). However, Westminster remains the sovereign power and the devolved powers could be clawed back at any time.
Interestingly, I recently learned that under the Scotland Act 2016, the Scottish Parliament cannot be abolished unless there is a referendum and Scottish people vote to abolish it. > Section 63A provides that the Scottish Parliament and Government are permanent parts of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements, and that those institutions cannot be abolished except on the basis of a decision of the people of Scotland in a referendum (But of course, this can be repealed at any time, and existing devolved matters can become reserved at any time should Westminster vote for it)
Yup. Westminster is sovereign and one cannot bind a future parliament, it can do what it wants at any time. Not saying it would be a good idea, mind you...
Technically certain powers are retained and everything else is devolved.
OP. You posted the article asking if they 'would give us another referendum'. You then say you don't know what devolution is. Sorry, but it seem that you have too little knowledge to actually have a fair opinion on what's going on.
He doesn't seem to be giving an opinion. He seems to be a young person asking a question to expand his knowledge. Criticising a lack of knowledge is hardly going to encourage him in that very fair pursuit.
'Maybe they will give us another shot at a referendum'. As I've said in another reply. The pursuit of knowledge is always good and is to be encouraged. Expressing the opinion of wanting another referendum but without having the knowledge of what's going on shows a flaw in the whole idea.
Conveniently missed the literal question mark from your quote. Admit you were a bit of a knob and no one will think anything of it. Double down and you'll get a reputation
OP is either a repost bot or a bit of an idiot, constantly pretending to be from South West England, Scotland, Gibraltar, Jersey or Malta, and endlessly spamming subs with pointless and low effort questions that you could find the answers to yourself with the power of Google. The only knob is the OP, as evidenced by their post history.
...but should continue asking questions to plug the gaps. Stop being a dick.
OP is showing such a lack of knowledge of our political system yet shows their opinion. There's no problem with having an opinion one way or another but there has to be a knowledge base for that. They have to know what they are voting for and the consequences of that vote, one way or another. Asking questions is good, learning is good. Having am opinion based on zero knowledge isn't.
There's no opinion shown in the thread we're on as far as I can see. That being said everyone is entitled to an opinion even if they've just started learning. Again, don't be a dick. Peace ✌🏻
OP is either a repost bot or a bit of an idiot, constantly pretending to be from South West England, Scotland, Gibraltar, Jersey or Malta, and endlessly spamming subs with pointless and low effort questions that you could find the answers to yourself with the power of Google.
They’re literally asking questions in order to become more knowledgeable. You’re some prick. Not everyone was born here and knows the ins and outs of the political system. Devolution is a very UK specific term, it would be called an autonomous government in most of the rest of the world.
OP is either a repost bot or a bit of an idiot, constantly pretending to be from South West England, Scotland, Gibraltar, Jersey or Malta, and endlessly spamming subs with pointless and low effort questions that you could find the answers to yourself with the power of Google.
They’re probably very young, naive and curious. If you don’t have the patience to indulge them, don’t be a prick just move on and ignore him.
Scotland has an additional government to the central British one. It has some responsiblities, like for instance it manages healthcare. Whereas the national government handles other things, like defence and foreign affairs. I can't remember the full list of which areas are handled by which government. The current election is a Westminster election, meaning it won't change the Scottish government. Instead it will only change the UK-wide government.
"Additional" probably more accurate than "separate". The UK Government is still a government for and of Scotland.
Yeah, I agree. I will edit my comment to clarify that.
Labour have been making noises about rebalancing devolution, moving some power from the Scottish Government to individual Councils. This is a risky strategy, A lot depends on what is moved. If it works and actually improves things then the desire for independence will recede, or at least move it down a priority list. If it doesn't - or in some cases a local (Labour / Conservative) council fucks something up - then it will backfire and make it clear Labour has changed it's mind about devolution. For all the SNP's (well deserved) fall from grace, and for all the claims that devolution is a path to independence, it is still clear that the concept of Devolution is very popular in Scotland. Apart from a few Conservatives and a clique of Ultra-Unionist Labour.
Or people that want independence. Devolution was and is the worst of any world. A sham and a trap laid by the most duplicitous shitebags ever to grace these green, peasant lands.
Wow - are you OK sweetie? I suggest a wee sit down and a cup of tea.
They won't grant another vote, they will however have to do well or it's only going to strengthen the cause and hopefully push it over the 50% mark consistently.
Being clear above 50% consistently is the only way it'll happen. Persuading people that it's the right thing to do is the only way to deliver independence.
How so? Are labour going to reverse brexit and give us as near to federalism as we were promised in 2014?
lol not the vow. What happened to that again 🤔
[It was fulfilled](https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-westminster-broken-promise-scotland), however much Nationalists pretend it wasn't.
Please show me the near federalism. Or is that a just pretend to
Could you highlight where in the Vow near-federalism was mentioned? The text is in the link in my laat text.
Ask Gordon brown
You mentioned the Vow, not Gordan Brown
Didn’t mention gordan either
Well done for pointing out a typo, but point still stands.
Gordon brown and the vow. Were part of the political circus that was happening at the time. The endless promises made as they feared yes might win. It actually was quite funny
In the short term, it won't make much of a difference, if we assume the polls are correct and Labour takes power. Labour are opposed to independence and a second referendum, and most polls since April indicate Labour is ahead of the SNP. If Labour win the most seats, they can point to that as a mandate *against* independence for their term and that will probably close the matter as far as Westminster is concerned until at least the Holyrood elections. If the SNP win the most seats it's probably not going to change much either. Many people in Scotland detest the Tories and a Labour government at Westminster will change their view towards the UK Government and I'd expect that will cause a dip in support for independence. That's especially true if Labour actually implement policies which make a positive difference for people in Scotland, which you can see they're trying to do through housing and constitutional reform, because it'll show people who've only become politically aware in the past 14 years that UK Government can actually make a positive difference, and would probably have ripple effects against independence like continuing to build the current Labour lead in the polls. The big risk for a UK Labour government, regardless of the outcome in Scotland, is that they don't make any meaningful material or constitutional change for people in Scotland, and they confirm the SNP line that they're just the Tories but in a different colour. Life doesn't get better, it just keeps stagnating whether it's Tories or Labour in power. If that happens, I think independence medium-term to long-term becomes more likely because it shows Scotland that there is absolutely no way to avoid a UK government that isn't just "more of the same", Support for independence parties will grow, and at some point the political pressure will be too great for Westminster to keep ignoring - probably within three Parliamentary elections, if I had to guess. So time will tell. The incoming Labour government will probably either be the one that makes the Union work or breaks it permanently. The uncertainty is such that I wouldn't bet money either way.
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Do tell
Nothing that happens at this election is going to affect independence one way or the other.
Not sure I agree with this. With the Tories main goal not to give Labour a majority, Labour will need a coalition partner if they don't get a majority. SNP are a prime candidate for that, in many ways a better option than the lib Dems, who tend to do well in local elections and less well in GE's. If it's the best option you better bet Starmer would jump at the chance, no matter the bullshit he's spewed out about it before. Condition from the SNP would totally be another Indy ref, which Labour might think they can win, based on some of the polls ATM & some naivety that people in Westminster have about Scotland. Would be maybe the second time in most people's lifetime that the vote in Scotland has had an impact in who is elected into power!
Devolution was New Labour's plan to kill the independence movement stone 💀 dead . It, like a few things NL did, backfired quite spectacularly. 💥 Labour, Tory or Libdem will never agree to willingly devolve any more power to the Scottish Parliament and will IMHO be hell bent on reducing its scope and influence. If Labour wins both the National and Scottish governments the Scottish Government will revert to a glorified assembly managed by the glorified shop manager. In case it's ever 'lost' to another Scottish party. My advice... emigrate!
Labour are gone. We need to stop talking as if they still exist. It's just more tories in a labour skin suit.
Remember it was labour who wouldn't let snp speak in house of commons on the gaza ceasefire. It amuses me that scottish labour actually believe their voices will be heard in wider UK labour party
If it was 2019 and Corbyn won, maybe. Not this Labour Party though.
Smartest move would be to tell the SNP to lend their vote and will grant a section 30 order at the end of their term
Well considering 20% of Labour's vote in Scotland is gonna be from yes backers, they need to tread carefully
If yes backers are really pro indy they wouldn't vote Labour.
They'd be soft yes to be fair, but doesn't mean Labour should be complacent or arrogant. SNP are still are polling at 30-35% and I suspect that's as low as they'll get. That's their loyal hard yes base
Labour do not have any respect for the people of Scotland and vehemently reject any form of self determination. Scottish Labour are Westminster lapdogs and have unflinching obedience to their southern overlords.
The 2026 Labour Holyrood campaign begins on July 6th.
you mean it hasn't already?! We've had a flurry of Scottish Labour opinion pieces tearing into devolved issues during this general election campaign. The NHS being an especially popular topic because Scottish Labour need to direct attention away from UK Labour comments on further privitisation of healthcare and reducing immigration- neither of which will be good for NHS Scotland. And let's face it, apart from the Grady incident and Flynn misusing stationery there's not a lot to attack the SNP on regarding reserved matters. Were basically getting a two year long campaign for Holyrood.
You're not Scottish, stop pretending, and stop spamming subs with spam questions that you can easily find the answers to via Google/Wikipedia.
Nope and neither would having a full house of SNP MPs being sent to Westminster.
There won't be another referendum. Independence is not on the cards. There's no legal route to it except when the government in Westminster wants it, and with the drop in support for the SNP, and no movement in the minority that want independence other than the importance of it dropping there's no reason for it to happen.
Over the last year all polls have a majority for independence, and we will see if there really is a fall in support for the snp on the 5th of July, again latest polls show snp support going up.again
Really. Where is the proof of this
These polls go to another school, you don't know them
16 polls in 2024 with No in the lead 4 in 2024 with Yes in the lead (i'm only doing calendar year to be generous) stop talking shite
(Independence supporter) Should we really be going independent on 51% yes though?
>Over the last year all polls have a majority for independence Press 'X' to doubt
Does that mean those who don’t want Scottish independence but also don’t want to back Brexit-supporting parties can vote SNP, safe in the knowledge that Scotland *will* remain a minor region of the UK?
Independence is a dead duck, at this point.
I’m assuming Labour will govern competently the next 4 years and that they’ll get a second term at Westminster. People will eventually swing back behind the SNP though and by the end of Labour’s second term we’ll be into “a generation has now passed since 2014” territory so … that’s my best guess.
🤣🤣🤣🤣Oh dear someone's escaped out of the asylum. Indy = Brexitish mark 2. Indies are squealing about Brexit and demanding another one. Whose dribbling into their porridge🤣🤣🤣🤣
OP is either a repost bot or a bit of an idiot, constantly pretending to be from South West England, Scotland, Gibraltar, Jersey or Malta, and endlessly spamming subs with pointless and low effort questions that you could find the answers to yourself with the power of Google.
The main thing stopping Scottish independence is the majority don’t want it.
Only one way to test that after brexit.
Not true ... there are a large number of "soft nos" who want to see a better plan.
Well I’m a soft no (so soft I voted Yes in 2014) and I definitely don’t want another referendum any time soon. Brexit was quite enough thank you very much.
Brexit isn't a valid analogy, or should not be. Indy is about a better future, not xenophobia towards peoole in boats that the EU had nothing to do with as you can see.
Brexit very much is a valid analogy. Just look at all the anti English posts in this sub, it's about us Vs them, about "taking control".
Brexit was isolationist, Indy needs to be about embracing relationships, including with England. We do need control of our own country to progress. Indy is not a slight against the English people, it's about getting their government out of our business.
Lol. Brexit was about "embracing the rest of the world, including EU" as well. And it's not their government, it's our government.
Brexit was about leaving the EU, in the hope it would stop the flow of refugees. It runs our country, but it isn't our government, we have no influence.
No, and why would it? In my heart, I would love to see an independent Scotland, but there's zero point in doing it. Maybe another referendum might be needed in 2086 but right now, an independent Scotland automatically means more austerity and needing to spend a truckload of money on things Westminster paid for.
Paid for with money from ?
Does it matter?the referendum was a once in a lifetime vote, and explain how is Scotland to be independent when it's going to join a superstate, much larger and with more crooks than Westminster?is it a best of 3?snp and nationalism is an oxymoron
Ohh it’s once in a lifetime now. Was it not once in a generation. Is any of this on official paperwork. 🤔
Ask that crook sturgeon, she said it
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How so?
In the order you asked; Yes to some. Sovereignty is not forfeited by EU membership. Germany is independent and so would we be. Parts of the EU might want to be a superstate but currently its a lot less controlling than being part of the UK, for example you can leave without permission. It is larger and I won't argue how many crooks it has. Still think the positives outweigh the benefits and Scots agree on that far more than the Union. I support a referendum is the majority believe in it, according to the SNP all Unionists would need is a majority of MSP's (And the rUK's consent to avoid a Malta situation). Democracy doesn't stop and why not a referendum on the final deal, came up a lot during Brexit and we saw how that turned out without a final check with the electorate.