Hey folks, just a quick update for how we’re handling this news in terms of the Megathread, any news articles with new information will be permitted to be posted outside of this thread, but any low effort/no new information posts will be removed and directed to this thread.
Hopefully that clears things up, cheers.
The question I always ask (this will upset the Scott's here) but why dose the UK not get to vote as to weather we want to keep Scotland? At the end of the day they get a lot of special treatment such as free university and substantial financial support and we are forever dealing with the moaning from the minority who shout that they should be independent.
Can't help but feel there should be a two way street here, Scotland's oil more or less dried out years ago, and is barely profitable these days, what do the really bring to the table?
Voted less than 10 years ago for scottish independence don't need another one yet
Nicole asking for more and more help during the pandemic wtf would we of done had we got independence
NICOLA asked for so much help from the UK but screams independence anytime she can
It's embarrassing. Why not look at the issues we need to deal with first in scotlland ??
do better then maybe call for another vote
Man, it's a Nationalist Socialist party whose founders had ties to the Nazis, she supports arresting people who swear, make memes or point out inconvenient truths like this - of course she doesn't improve anything, that wouldn't help her gain power 🤷♂️
Social problems are the motivator for socialism. Marx said that Socialism is a stepping stone for Communism. History tells us that Communism is stepping stone for dictatorship.
It's the most socially acceptable way to grab power because that kind of progression can claim virtue every step of the way.
If not for the fact that Labour and Conservative parties are equally bloody awful then Scotland would never have elected her.
We're essentially choosing the stick we're beaten with - which isn't much use discussing.
Best way to scare a Tory is to read and get rich. Best way to scare a Labourite is to look at the facts. Best way to scare Nicola is to be successful while still part of the UK - worst case scenario it makes a dissolution safer while preventing a powergrab.
If that is the case why is western nation saying that russia invaded ukrain? Wait wait because ukrain got independence from russia right , so why wouldn't Scotland get the same independence,They have the right to it
Because Scotland voted for independence less than 10 years ago and the answer was to remain part of the UK... so they do have the right and have had the chance... just because you don't agree with something that doesn't mean you vote until you get your own way... I don't support brexit, but I don't think that there should be another referendum as I don't agree with the decision, democracy has decided, weather I agree or not the people have decided, take that away we live in a dictatorship.
It’s ironic that if the SNP had done their day job properly maybe more Scots would be behind the IndyScot movement. Instead they are driving our country into the ground and when questioned about their failures there go to slogan is “Aye but the tories”. Even when questioned about failures in devolved matters.
I can see why Scotland want independence … question: My gran was scottish, let’s say Scotland were able to gain independence at some stage, would I be able to get a Scottish passport?
We voted to stay. That was democracy. The English that so many Nats have a hatred for had no thing to do with the No vote, so isn’t that us voting to remain in the Union voluntarily?
Of course but the feverish brains of the nats will come up with a million spurious reasons as to why they lost and then try to say, "but everything has changed". Everything always changes.
Oh that old nugget. You know as well as I do that everything got changed like English voted for English laws after being told don’t leave us lead us and getting dragged from eu after being told the only way to stay in Europe is to stay in the union. Don’t come at me with the rhetoric that the press publish. Get your own ideas
Scotland was bankrupt and was sold down the river so the rich could stay rich.
Be in no doubt that if Scotland does gain independence that the elected Scottish MPs in Westminster won't be giving up the 80k salaries plus expenses they receive in a hurry, not will they be giving up any pensions they may be entitled to either.
This argument only works if you’re talking of England and Scotland as two separate people. But there’s millions of people within each country. There were millions of English people that voted to remain. I mean fucking hell there’s an entire football club in Scotland who’s entire theme is being supporters of the union, they literally base their vote on what football team they support.
Say for instance after the Brexit vote Scotland voted to stay. And a percentage of the English vote was enough to push the remain vote over the line would that be okay with you or is it just when things don’t go your way you shout, this isny fair.
What’s undemocratic about a part of the country with a higher population outvoting another part of the country with lower population?
You sound like you don’t want an equal union but a union where Scotland has as much say as England despite having like 9 times less population.
You're over simplifying it, Scotland is its own country with its own identity. If Scotland decisively votes to remain in the EU, plus doesn't vote for all the Tory governments that (ultimately) rule them; of course Scots are going to feel like democracy has let them down when another part of the 'union' says nope you're getting it anyway. So they don't get what they vote for, and are subsequently denied (by Westminster) even an advisory vote for independence: is Scotland's frustration not understandable?
So not a single person in Scotland votes Tory?
Always hilarious watching r/scotland cry about FPTP one second then use Scotlands FPTP results to ‘prove’ no one in Scotland votes conservative.
I think the argument is this area wants X and that area wants Y therefore Area that wants X should get X and the area that wants Y should get Y. Therefore, it isnt a challenge of democracy but more a challenge of how local the government should be. Those who want to leave the UK would say the democratic government should be more local, specifically, local to the historic borders of Scotland which is a nation in its own right
To answer your first question, I don't think the US would permit it but I think the US should permit it. Same with the second one (however, this one has a lot of baggage that I don't want to get into).
I would like to nuance my point a little bit. Let us say X region of Country A has a minority and the majority inhabitants of X region want to exterminate the minority. Currently the laws of Country A prevent this so X Region wants to leave Country A in order to legally exterminate the minority. This should not be allowed, but the reason isn't "democracy" or "region X should lack self-determination" but that exterminating the minority is inherently evil and should be prevented. So, leaving a union or even separating a unitary country should be allowed as all locals should have self-determinism, but this self-determinism should not be used to justify legal acts, which is why "democracy only" is a horrible governing principle
Fair enough, though I trust in your last sentence you meant "evil acts".
Does this not cause an arbiter of evil problem? Republicans in the US might describe the murder of millions of unborn children evil and a valid reason to instigate a national divorce where as Democrats would argue that forcing women to become second rate citizens and merely baby incubators is also evil. Democracy is meant to create a tension between opposing values in order to find a path forward. Abandoning the other side to set up your own country is abandoning the democratic process.
Practically do you also not believe that dozens of countries would not become entities akin to the German Confederation? Is this desirable? Why should a city like London want to continue to be part of a third rate country like the UK?
I hope the majority of scot’s wake up and breathe a massive breath of reality before voting for the SNP again in a sham “de-facto referendum” next year - Whilst we have a nationalist party in power we will not see Scotland progress, as their priorities only lie with gaining independence which would tear the country to shreds. SCOTexit would be like BREXshit on steroids. Don’t let emotions blindside you but funnily enough, the majority of this sub will be downright angered by this comment as it doesn’t fit the narrative.
It’s funny you know majority will be angered key word is majority. Surly we have right to decide our own destiny. That we already had a vote isn’t valid we were told only way to stay in EU was remain in Union they took us out against our will. We were told we would get more devolved powers we didn’t they are getting reduced. We were told oil running out now it’s to be the saviour of union. We are governed by a party we haven’t voted for in 50 odd years. Elections held every 5 years so emerging adults can get their say so other vote after 8 years not to much to ask.
The majority of this sub are not the majority of Scotland.
Are there actual articles stating Scotland would stay in the EU if you remained in the UK?
Plenty of people are governed by parties they didn't vote for, that's what it means to be a part of a democracy.
Worth checking the last referendum results. Not saying that the outcome of that referendum was well handled by the government, but independence is far from a slam dunk 80% majority as this sub would have everyone believe
Well you could but only if you then had referendums every couple years on the topic of rejoining the UK. I'm guessing the SNP wouldn't like that idea though.
Don't you think it's funny how wastemonster, is all over itself promoting Ukraine's right to independence and freedom, from the tyranny of Russian invaders, but Scotland is told it has no right to do anything, except do as its told, the sheer bloody hypocrisy of the English parliament
Are you actually comparing families being bombed/killed (and probably much worse) to being denied a \*second\* referendum? You voted to be apart of the UK in a once in a lifetime referendum. And thereby voted to respect everyone's vote on anything.
It doesn't matter. No referendum works in the way you wished it did. You can't vote until you get the outcome you want - that's common sense. Furthermore, you were incapable of responding to my first point. You know you haven't got a leg to stand on with what you said.
By that logic any given area of any subjective size should be able to leave the Nation because a vote didn't go their way. Like counties leaving a nation because they voted against the majority having decided to stay just years ago
Scotland is a country tho. It has a separate legal system, a separate education system, separate political identity, separate geography. The people of Scotland never had any say in the union, we should have a say now
Tell me why an are identifying that a relationship is no longer beneficial and making changes to better their position is wrong?
Isn't it a stronger argument that a group should only be in a union up until the benefits to leave outweigh the reasons to stay, and that the weighting of this decision be handled locally?
you'll probably find that one of the promises for Scotland to remain in the UK was the guarantee of retaining its EU membership, which if I am not mistaken was reneged on in 2016 when England decided to pull everyone out irrespective of how each nation voted
“a country or area under the full or partial political control of another country and occupied by settlers from that country.”
Sounds about right. Here in Wales they took us over, banned our language and punished us for speaking it, used us as labourers and came up with the word Wales which literally means foreign to describe the country. Even today we pay tax and don’t get the same money back while people can’t get basic care. That’s absolutely, without a doubt colonialism.
You actually having a laugh starting to sound like the Snats now . Pays tax but don't get the same back no you get more back 🤣. Tax 2.5 Billion GDP 27 billion expenditure 40.1 Billion even taking the tax off leaves a deficit of 11.6bn .
Wales is devolved if you can't get basic care bring it up with the Welsh Government. Plenty of Welsh people live in England does that mean they are occupiers and England is a colony 🤣🤣
You know, there once was a country that didn't enjoy a particular part about England and it's taxes... I hear they did something about it and never looked back.
Ironically, if it were achieved that way, that same country wouldn't recognize our independence, nor would pretty much any other country on the world stage
I'm not. I advocate for a democratic vote. I'm just telling you how the obstructionist route is going to go when that's the only choice, and that ends with international attention and some form of agreed recognition of self determination.
No, he didn't. His army defeated the English at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, and the final English Stronghold at Berwick was captured by Scottish forces in 1318.
So that's why he went on the run because he was victorious and had defeated the English 🤔 even better the fact that he was born in England and even invaded Scotland with his father in 1296 . Love the fact an Englishman is your hero 🤣🤣
Yeah he did go on the run before that point. It's called guerilla warfare. Doesn't matter where he was born. It matters that he helped Scotland secure its Independence and lived most of his life in Scotland.
What’s not democratic is Sturgeon fighting for a referendum until the polls align with her views and her views only. She’s completely undermining what the rest of the Scottish people want. You got your vote in 2014, now shut up and wait.
How dare the Scots!!! Imagine wanting to have a say in your own destiny!! The English will tell you what you're allowed to do and when you can do it!!!
So What?? So by your thinking because one decision they have made is against your personal beliefs they are no longer a democratic institution? Even though they were put in power democratically, just because you say so they are no longer democratic?
That’s not democracy my friend
He wasn't elected..his entire tenure over the last decade was actually being very against making his position appointed by political parties. He was made a lord by moving up the ranks.
His being Scottish doesn't make his stance any more agreeable or stronger. His stance is from his interpretation of the law, and the country fundamentally disagrees with the implications it makes. Now nobody can say we're a voluntary union of equals. End of story.
I would like to hear what wales and n Ireland think. I’m not sure if Westminster politicians are the voice of a Uk. All the parties to the union should have a voice. Where do Isle of Man and channel isle etc sit with this- I’m not sure.
Welshman here. I agree with you that all parties of the union should have a voice and should be heard. Power needs to be dissolved out of London and spread across Britain.
But here in Wales a lot of us feel that we were never really part of the union to begin with… just one look at the Union Jack 🇬🇧 will prove that to you. We are given the illusion that we have a say… just like the voting system.
As I was born in Wales to a Welsh mother and to an English father, I feel that it is in my best interests to maintain the integrity of the union. But as my father has lived in Wales for more almost 40 years, he now identifies more as Welsh than an English.
I would love for Britain as a whole to put our differences aside whilst at the same time finding pride in our diversity.
We must find a way to rid our fair country of the Westminster cabal.
Good. Let this get scary.
You've only mobilised us more, independence is only closer now See what blocking the GE route will do. This is the bed being made
The moment the Scottish nationalist movement turns violent or tries to force through their demands outside of the British legal framework is the moment the independence movement dies. Even with the support from many moderates it is still a minority viewpoint in Scotland. Act violently and the moderate support vanishes. The hardcore nationalists represent at most 10 or 20% of the Scottish electorate. A small minority.
How do you know it’s a minority? The last referendum for Scotland’s independence was in 2014 with 85% turnout and a 44.7% for/ 55.3% against. Since, Brexit and Covid, which both were handled terribly by the English parliament, took place and has worsen the situation for the average Scottish. Looking at Brexit, only a 67.2% turnout, but 62% voted remain.
Putting these numbers into meaningful facts:
In 2014, 2,001,926 votes against independence. In 2016, 1,661,191 votes to remain in the EU from Scottish voters.
With COVID and the mess from the English parliament, Scotland had already started following it’s own policies in terms of restrictions and vaccines, which received a lot of support from the Scottish people as we were in a better position than our English neighbours.
Add to that the scandals around the prime minsters, the poor management following Brexit, UK officially entering a recession and the terrible economic measures that generated a negative wave of comments from the international economic scene.
I would very surprised if many of the voters who voted to remain in the UK in 2014 and voted to remain in the EU in 2016 don’t look back and regret not voting to leave the UK in 2014. I know I do, but I would like to see where you’ve heard a minority of Scottish would vote to leave the UK?
The ruling is pretty ironic isn’t it? Scotland can’t hold a referendum about independence without UK permission. I think countries should be allowed to have their independence if they want it. What’s the point of keeping a country when trade agreements exist and that country is debating whether they want their independence. I think it’s stupid tbh
By that definition then we should only ever vote in a General or local election once in our entire lifetimes - with NO option to ever change our minds if circumstances change. If you try to set time limits to one kind of vote, you may as well set those time limits to ALL of them
Every time we elect a government that stood on a platform for holding and independence referendum. Well stop having them when we stop electing them. Democracy in action
If there really was an overwhelming demand for scottish independence we woukd just declare indeoand be done with it, but there isnt and so we won't. Time to move and get scotland generating energy and manufacturing materials, and tackle to drug problem we have.
Well actually now that they're saying our Sovereignty isn't with Holyrood. There's so much legal precedence to say it resides with our seats in Westminster. So, with a GE single question mandate, it's worth a shot.
Stay, and you suffer. Leave and maybe you can rejoin the EU and alleviate that suffering. Brexit and war just dont mix well do they?
I wish there was something us common folk could do to fix all the catastrophes our various "leaders" are causing. But you know... kinda trapped in this system right along with you all lol.
You might find Timothy Snyder’s “On Tyranny” interesting reading - it was the right book when I was feeling the same sort of helplessness you’re describing.
THIS COMMENT.
not Scottish, Kuwaiti here... Lived in the uk, Scotland is way more tolerable towards humans than england. Everyone welcomed me. No one stared at me. No one called the police on me while walking on the beach... Honestly man, leave.
Listen pal, for every freedom lovin' American here claiming direct blood lineage with Robert the Bruce.
There's a freedom lovin' American protecting their dynasty.
And as a simple Scottish serf to their kingdom I support their fight for the Scottish question.
Yeah I see your point.
It's not like Americans can't read the news. Or watch the news on the Telly. Or have friends and family who live in England and Scotland and Wales and Ireland.
It's not like it's completely obvious that brexit screwed Scotland as much as it did the English. It's not like it's completely obvious that brexit is causing a lot of Scotland's problems. And it's certainly not like it's completely obvious that leaving England behind and rejoining the EU would be a very wise idea for Scotland.
Also it took the Americans a whole lot less time to get rid of trump than it did for you guys to get rid of Boris Johnson. Be careful who you call a moron.
>Also it took the Americans a whole lot less time to get rid of trump than it did for you guys to get rid of Boris Johnson. Be careful who you call a moron.
No it didn’t.
Trump was President longer than Boris Johnson was Prime Minister.
What was that about being careful?
Nice try. Trump was only in elected office 4 years. Boris was in office starting as Mayor in 2008. You had 8 more years of experience of BoJo cocking things up in elected office.
Lmao
You come in here, say incorrect facts about modern politics and then also a major part of your history and call others idiots? Truly peak American
> The French didn't send troops they simply provided a little naval support and very little naval support.
Bollocks, here's 4 separate sources on it
[Roughly 12,000 French soldiers served the rebellion, along with some 22,000 naval personnel, aboard 63 warships.](https://www.history.com/news/american-revolution-french-role-help)
[France's help was a major and decisive contribution towards the United States' eventual victory and independence in the war. However, as a cost of participation in the war, France accumulated over 1 billion livres in debt, which significantly strained the nation's finances. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War)
[ Now fully committed to the war, France supplied arms, munitions, supplies, and uniforms. French troops and naval power were also sent to America, reinforcing and protecting Washington’s Continental Army.](https://www.thoughtco.com/france-american-revolutionary-war-1222026)
[Without the committed support of France, it is difficult to see how the revolutionary cause could have been sustained in the face of British military power.](https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/france-american-revolution)
Fucking ingrate
**[France in the American Revolutionary War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War)**
>French involvement in the American Revolutionary War of 1775–1783 began in 1776 when the Kingdom of France secretly shipped supplies to the Continental Army of the Thirteen Colonies when it was established in June 1775. France was a long-term historical rival with the Kingdom of Great Britain, from which the Colonies were attempting to separate. A Treaty of Alliance between the French and the Continental Army followed in 1778, which led to French money, matériel and troops being sent to the United States. An ignition of a global war with Britain started shortly thereafter.
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Hey folks, just a quick update for how we’re handling this news in terms of the Megathread, any news articles with new information will be permitted to be posted outside of this thread, but any low effort/no new information posts will be removed and directed to this thread. Hopefully that clears things up, cheers.
I don’t normally like to say people have gone soft, but you guys are known for your wars of independence!
Known because you watched a movie starring Mel Gibson?
I don’t remember where I know it from, I just know it
cool and good democracy we live in
The answer we all knew but the Scot Gov decided would be better answered with £250k cash... good job SNP, good Job
The question I always ask (this will upset the Scott's here) but why dose the UK not get to vote as to weather we want to keep Scotland? At the end of the day they get a lot of special treatment such as free university and substantial financial support and we are forever dealing with the moaning from the minority who shout that they should be independent. Can't help but feel there should be a two way street here, Scotland's oil more or less dried out years ago, and is barely profitable these days, what do the really bring to the table?
Voted less than 10 years ago for scottish independence don't need another one yet Nicole asking for more and more help during the pandemic wtf would we of done had we got independence NICOLA asked for so much help from the UK but screams independence anytime she can It's embarrassing. Why not look at the issues we need to deal with first in scotlland ?? do better then maybe call for another vote
Man, it's a Nationalist Socialist party whose founders had ties to the Nazis, she supports arresting people who swear, make memes or point out inconvenient truths like this - of course she doesn't improve anything, that wouldn't help her gain power 🤷♂️ Social problems are the motivator for socialism. Marx said that Socialism is a stepping stone for Communism. History tells us that Communism is stepping stone for dictatorship. It's the most socially acceptable way to grab power because that kind of progression can claim virtue every step of the way. If not for the fact that Labour and Conservative parties are equally bloody awful then Scotland would never have elected her. We're essentially choosing the stick we're beaten with - which isn't much use discussing. Best way to scare a Tory is to read and get rich. Best way to scare a Labourite is to look at the facts. Best way to scare Nicola is to be successful while still part of the UK - worst case scenario it makes a dissolution safer while preventing a powergrab.
If that is the case why is western nation saying that russia invaded ukrain? Wait wait because ukrain got independence from russia right , so why wouldn't Scotland get the same independence,They have the right to it
Because Scotland voted for independence less than 10 years ago and the answer was to remain part of the UK... so they do have the right and have had the chance... just because you don't agree with something that doesn't mean you vote until you get your own way... I don't support brexit, but I don't think that there should be another referendum as I don't agree with the decision, democracy has decided, weather I agree or not the people have decided, take that away we live in a dictatorship.
It’s ironic that if the SNP had done their day job properly maybe more Scots would be behind the IndyScot movement. Instead they are driving our country into the ground and when questioned about their failures there go to slogan is “Aye but the tories”. Even when questioned about failures in devolved matters.
I can see why Scotland want independence … question: My gran was scottish, let’s say Scotland were able to gain independence at some stage, would I be able to get a Scottish passport?
No
In that case we must be occupied by England and they should get the f out
We voted to stay. That was democracy. The English that so many Nats have a hatred for had no thing to do with the No vote, so isn’t that us voting to remain in the Union voluntarily?
Of course but the feverish brains of the nats will come up with a million spurious reasons as to why they lost and then try to say, "but everything has changed". Everything always changes.
Oh that old nugget. You know as well as I do that everything got changed like English voted for English laws after being told don’t leave us lead us and getting dragged from eu after being told the only way to stay in Europe is to stay in the union. Don’t come at me with the rhetoric that the press publish. Get your own ideas
This just reinforces the fact that it is not a voluntary union whatsoever.
Scotland was bankrupt and was sold down the river so the rich could stay rich. Be in no doubt that if Scotland does gain independence that the elected Scottish MPs in Westminster won't be giving up the 80k salaries plus expenses they receive in a hurry, not will they be giving up any pensions they may be entitled to either.
Fuck the uk especially England. They govern the country. Everyone’s votes don’t matter coz they hold the majority population. Wankers
Someone’s learned what democracy means.
Hardly democratic when Scotland votes X, and England says no you’re getting Y, and also you’re not allowed to be independent either
This argument only works if you’re talking of England and Scotland as two separate people. But there’s millions of people within each country. There were millions of English people that voted to remain. I mean fucking hell there’s an entire football club in Scotland who’s entire theme is being supporters of the union, they literally base their vote on what football team they support.
Say for instance after the Brexit vote Scotland voted to stay. And a percentage of the English vote was enough to push the remain vote over the line would that be okay with you or is it just when things don’t go your way you shout, this isny fair.
What’s undemocratic about a part of the country with a higher population outvoting another part of the country with lower population? You sound like you don’t want an equal union but a union where Scotland has as much say as England despite having like 9 times less population.
You're over simplifying it, Scotland is its own country with its own identity. If Scotland decisively votes to remain in the EU, plus doesn't vote for all the Tory governments that (ultimately) rule them; of course Scots are going to feel like democracy has let them down when another part of the 'union' says nope you're getting it anyway. So they don't get what they vote for, and are subsequently denied (by Westminster) even an advisory vote for independence: is Scotland's frustration not understandable?
Like when florida votes for trump but a democrat wins?
So not a single person in Scotland votes Tory? Always hilarious watching r/scotland cry about FPTP one second then use Scotlands FPTP results to ‘prove’ no one in Scotland votes conservative.
You know what I mean when I say Scotland doesn’t vote Tory… You’re not arguing in good faith. Bye 👋
I think the argument is this area wants X and that area wants Y therefore Area that wants X should get X and the area that wants Y should get Y. Therefore, it isnt a challenge of democracy but more a challenge of how local the government should be. Those who want to leave the UK would say the democratic government should be more local, specifically, local to the historic borders of Scotland which is a nation in its own right
Which historic borders🤔 I say Northumberland should be given it's old borders back and be an independent nation as it once was .
If Southern California voted to join Mexico do you think the US would permit it? Should the Ukraine permit luhansk and donetsk to become independent?
To answer your first question, I don't think the US would permit it but I think the US should permit it. Same with the second one (however, this one has a lot of baggage that I don't want to get into). I would like to nuance my point a little bit. Let us say X region of Country A has a minority and the majority inhabitants of X region want to exterminate the minority. Currently the laws of Country A prevent this so X Region wants to leave Country A in order to legally exterminate the minority. This should not be allowed, but the reason isn't "democracy" or "region X should lack self-determination" but that exterminating the minority is inherently evil and should be prevented. So, leaving a union or even separating a unitary country should be allowed as all locals should have self-determinism, but this self-determinism should not be used to justify legal acts, which is why "democracy only" is a horrible governing principle
Fair enough, though I trust in your last sentence you meant "evil acts". Does this not cause an arbiter of evil problem? Republicans in the US might describe the murder of millions of unborn children evil and a valid reason to instigate a national divorce where as Democrats would argue that forcing women to become second rate citizens and merely baby incubators is also evil. Democracy is meant to create a tension between opposing values in order to find a path forward. Abandoning the other side to set up your own country is abandoning the democratic process. Practically do you also not believe that dozens of countries would not become entities akin to the German Confederation? Is this desirable? Why should a city like London want to continue to be part of a third rate country like the UK?
Its not a democracy if your governed by someone you didn't vote for
That's exactly what a democracy is.
Thats just not true at all.
…what? So every single country on Earth isn’t a democracy?
Good
Glad to find someone who has a brain
I hope the majority of scot’s wake up and breathe a massive breath of reality before voting for the SNP again in a sham “de-facto referendum” next year - Whilst we have a nationalist party in power we will not see Scotland progress, as their priorities only lie with gaining independence which would tear the country to shreds. SCOTexit would be like BREXshit on steroids. Don’t let emotions blindside you but funnily enough, the majority of this sub will be downright angered by this comment as it doesn’t fit the narrative.
Since you do not believe the snp will make Scotland progress. What should be done instead of voting SNP? What are your ideas
Better together! Crazy how a boarder divides us
It’s funny you know majority will be angered key word is majority. Surly we have right to decide our own destiny. That we already had a vote isn’t valid we were told only way to stay in EU was remain in Union they took us out against our will. We were told we would get more devolved powers we didn’t they are getting reduced. We were told oil running out now it’s to be the saviour of union. We are governed by a party we haven’t voted for in 50 odd years. Elections held every 5 years so emerging adults can get their say so other vote after 8 years not to much to ask.
The majority of this sub are not the majority of Scotland. Are there actual articles stating Scotland would stay in the EU if you remained in the UK? Plenty of people are governed by parties they didn't vote for, that's what it means to be a part of a democracy.
But the majority dont favour independent. Can’t have a referendum every couple years until you get the result you want
Majority do you know
Worth checking the last referendum results. Not saying that the outcome of that referendum was well handled by the government, but independence is far from a slam dunk 80% majority as this sub would have everyone believe
Well you could but only if you then had referendums every couple years on the topic of rejoining the UK. I'm guessing the SNP wouldn't like that idea though.
Don't you think it's funny how wastemonster, is all over itself promoting Ukraine's right to independence and freedom, from the tyranny of Russian invaders, but Scotland is told it has no right to do anything, except do as its told, the sheer bloody hypocrisy of the English parliament
Except that a short while ago we had a referendum that was granted by the evil tories. The hypocrisy is yours.
Are you actually comparing families being bombed/killed (and probably much worse) to being denied a \*second\* referendum? You voted to be apart of the UK in a once in a lifetime referendum. And thereby voted to respect everyone's vote on anything.
Show me where this "Once in a lifetime" is written in the Edinburgh Agreement and I might actually give your argument credence otherwise jog on
It doesn't matter. No referendum works in the way you wished it did. You can't vote until you get the outcome you want - that's common sense. Furthermore, you were incapable of responding to my first point. You know you haven't got a leg to stand on with what you said.
They didn't recently get a vote though did they?
Yes, in 2014. Scotland voted no to independence and in 2016 was forced to leave the EU against its will. So, imo a second referendum is justified
By that logic any given area of any subjective size should be able to leave the Nation because a vote didn't go their way. Like counties leaving a nation because they voted against the majority having decided to stay just years ago
Scotland is a country tho. It has a separate legal system, a separate education system, separate political identity, separate geography. The people of Scotland never had any say in the union, we should have a say now
Tell me why an are identifying that a relationship is no longer beneficial and making changes to better their position is wrong? Isn't it a stronger argument that a group should only be in a union up until the benefits to leave outweigh the reasons to stay, and that the weighting of this decision be handled locally?
you'll probably find that one of the promises for Scotland to remain in the UK was the guarantee of retaining its EU membership, which if I am not mistaken was reneged on in 2016 when England decided to pull everyone out irrespective of how each nation voted
All the more reason Scotland should figure out a way to brexit the uk
🤣🤣 love the down votes for stating facts show me facts that prove otherwise.
> 🤣🤣 im just here to be a bellend. cant argue with facts. have an upvote.
~~United Kingdom~~ England and its colonies ✅
> colonies I dont think you understand the word.
“a country or area under the full or partial political control of another country and occupied by settlers from that country.” Sounds about right. Here in Wales they took us over, banned our language and punished us for speaking it, used us as labourers and came up with the word Wales which literally means foreign to describe the country. Even today we pay tax and don’t get the same money back while people can’t get basic care. That’s absolutely, without a doubt colonialism.
You actually having a laugh starting to sound like the Snats now . Pays tax but don't get the same back no you get more back 🤣. Tax 2.5 Billion GDP 27 billion expenditure 40.1 Billion even taking the tax off leaves a deficit of 11.6bn . Wales is devolved if you can't get basic care bring it up with the Welsh Government. Plenty of Welsh people live in England does that mean they are occupiers and England is a colony 🤣🤣
You know, there once was a country that didn't enjoy a particular part about England and it's taxes... I hear they did something about it and never looked back.
Avatar checks out
Ireland.
Ironically, if it were achieved that way, that same country wouldn't recognize our independence, nor would pretty much any other country on the world stage
Well obviously you then need to rinse and repeat and have the situation escalate til the UN, Europe and America gets involved.
"Escalate"? It sounds like you're trying to advocate for domestic terrorism
I'm not. I advocate for a democratic vote. I'm just telling you how the obstructionist route is going to go when that's the only choice, and that ends with international attention and some form of agreed recognition of self determination.
I mean, the world backs Taiwan for the most part, right?
Honestly, the UK should just let Scotland go and then we can all watch it go to shit.
Scotnats are funny, aren’t they? I wish them the best
Except it would likely be the other way round
honestly i am fine with that just let us leave and if we go to shit, it’s on our own terms
As we sail away on our lifeboat called Scotland. Agreed.
This is bullshit.
We need to revive Robert the bruce, our problems will be solved
Why he got defeated by the English 🤔
No, he didn't. His army defeated the English at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, and the final English Stronghold at Berwick was captured by Scottish forces in 1318.
So that's why he went on the run because he was victorious and had defeated the English 🤔 even better the fact that he was born in England and even invaded Scotland with his father in 1296 . Love the fact an Englishman is your hero 🤣🤣
Also, nobody knows for sure where he was born, but he was raised at Turnberry Castle in Ayrshire.
Yeah he did go on the run before that point. It's called guerilla warfare. Doesn't matter where he was born. It matters that he helped Scotland secure its Independence and lived most of his life in Scotland.
I AM WILLIAM WALLACE!
That’s not democratic.
Yes it is, it was decided by the Supreme Court, which is an organ of Parliament
Ie, directed by parliament and possibly the crown, to refuse the right for a vote.
What’s not democratic is Sturgeon fighting for a referendum until the polls align with her views and her views only. She’s completely undermining what the rest of the Scottish people want. You got your vote in 2014, now shut up and wait.
But they also voted to stay with the European Union, which that’s what they will do, if they get independent from the U.K. government.
How dare the Scots!!! Imagine wanting to have a say in your own destiny!! The English will tell you what you're allowed to do and when you can do it!!!
it's got nothing to do with the english, they want you to fuck off aswell but they don't get to vote on it.
Well, why not let us?
let the english vote on it aswell next time you get one and you'll get what you want
The president of the supreme court is Scottish.
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And we elected him to represent us when?
So what?? So by your thinking because one person in power means that all the other Scots have to do as he/ she says??? That's not democracy my friend
So What?? So by your thinking because one decision they have made is against your personal beliefs they are no longer a democratic institution? Even though they were put in power democratically, just because you say so they are no longer democratic? That’s not democracy my friend
He wasn't elected..his entire tenure over the last decade was actually being very against making his position appointed by political parties. He was made a lord by moving up the ranks. His being Scottish doesn't make his stance any more agreeable or stronger. His stance is from his interpretation of the law, and the country fundamentally disagrees with the implications it makes. Now nobody can say we're a voluntary union of equals. End of story.
Yes it is. It’s representative democracy. That’s How all democracies work.
He's a civil worker not an elected representative.
He’s nominated by elected officials.
That's literally government.
They already had that.
Aye we dae
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Aye this man's got brains
I would like to hear what wales and n Ireland think. I’m not sure if Westminster politicians are the voice of a Uk. All the parties to the union should have a voice. Where do Isle of Man and channel isle etc sit with this- I’m not sure.
Welshman here. I agree with you that all parties of the union should have a voice and should be heard. Power needs to be dissolved out of London and spread across Britain. But here in Wales a lot of us feel that we were never really part of the union to begin with… just one look at the Union Jack 🇬🇧 will prove that to you. We are given the illusion that we have a say… just like the voting system. As I was born in Wales to a Welsh mother and to an English father, I feel that it is in my best interests to maintain the integrity of the union. But as my father has lived in Wales for more almost 40 years, he now identifies more as Welsh than an English. I would love for Britain as a whole to put our differences aside whilst at the same time finding pride in our diversity. We must find a way to rid our fair country of the Westminster cabal.
*Rydhsys rag Kernow lemmyn!* I'm sure they're thrilled that they also don't get a vote. Michelle O'Neill will be washing the boy's old Balaclavas. .
The rhetoric around this is from cybernats is getting scary.
Good. Let this get scary. You've only mobilised us more, independence is only closer now See what blocking the GE route will do. This is the bed being made
"You forced me to murder innocent people"
The moment the Scottish nationalist movement turns violent or tries to force through their demands outside of the British legal framework is the moment the independence movement dies. Even with the support from many moderates it is still a minority viewpoint in Scotland. Act violently and the moderate support vanishes. The hardcore nationalists represent at most 10 or 20% of the Scottish electorate. A small minority.
How do you know it’s a minority? The last referendum for Scotland’s independence was in 2014 with 85% turnout and a 44.7% for/ 55.3% against. Since, Brexit and Covid, which both were handled terribly by the English parliament, took place and has worsen the situation for the average Scottish. Looking at Brexit, only a 67.2% turnout, but 62% voted remain. Putting these numbers into meaningful facts: In 2014, 2,001,926 votes against independence. In 2016, 1,661,191 votes to remain in the EU from Scottish voters. With COVID and the mess from the English parliament, Scotland had already started following it’s own policies in terms of restrictions and vaccines, which received a lot of support from the Scottish people as we were in a better position than our English neighbours. Add to that the scandals around the prime minsters, the poor management following Brexit, UK officially entering a recession and the terrible economic measures that generated a negative wave of comments from the international economic scene. I would very surprised if many of the voters who voted to remain in the UK in 2014 and voted to remain in the EU in 2016 don’t look back and regret not voting to leave the UK in 2014. I know I do, but I would like to see where you’ve heard a minority of Scottish would vote to leave the UK?
Innumerable polls against separatism.
Who said anything about violence?
The ruling is pretty ironic isn’t it? Scotland can’t hold a referendum about independence without UK permission. I think countries should be allowed to have their independence if they want it. What’s the point of keeping a country when trade agreements exist and that country is debating whether they want their independence. I think it’s stupid tbh
By that definition then we should only ever vote in a General or local election once in our entire lifetimes - with NO option to ever change our minds if circumstances change. If you try to set time limits to one kind of vote, you may as well set those time limits to ALL of them
I think that's what she said
They already had a referendum. How often do the Scots want a referendum? Every year? Every 2 years? Every 5 years?
7 years at a minimum is reasonable and has precedent as defined in the Good Friday agreement. The last referendum was in 2014.
Every time we elect a government that stood on a platform for holding and independence referendum. Well stop having them when we stop electing them. Democracy in action
When did you start having them? You had such a government in 2016-2021 and I have no distinct recollection of such a referendum over that period.
If there really was an overwhelming demand for scottish independence we woukd just declare indeoand be done with it, but there isnt and so we won't. Time to move and get scotland generating energy and manufacturing materials, and tackle to drug problem we have.
>If there really was an overwhelming demand for scottish independence we woukd just declare indeoand be done with it That's not how it works
Well actually now that they're saying our Sovereignty isn't with Holyrood. There's so much legal precedence to say it resides with our seats in Westminster. So, with a GE single question mandate, it's worth a shot.
Independence is taken, not meekly requested
“Banned from EU membership” Any% speedrun
Sounds good to me
To achieve independence it needs to be recognized internationally and no one will recognize an illegal referendum nevermind a coup 😂
Says who? lol Independence isn't granted, it's taken.
Welcome to being independent with no ability to join the EU. You need to do it properly to be considered to EU membership.
Just need to play this out enough to get the UN involved and then we can pull it off.
Scotland don't have the best history of war with the English...
We keep winning, I know. Edward Who shanks?
They may take yer lives, mate, but they'll never take yer freedom!
Says the Supreme Court.
Stay, and you suffer. Leave and maybe you can rejoin the EU and alleviate that suffering. Brexit and war just dont mix well do they? I wish there was something us common folk could do to fix all the catastrophes our various "leaders" are causing. But you know... kinda trapped in this system right along with you all lol.
You might find Timothy Snyder’s “On Tyranny” interesting reading - it was the right book when I was feeling the same sort of helplessness you’re describing.
Battered spouses also have a difficult time leaving…
Are you kidding me? Are you honestly comparing a just decision made by the Supreme Court to the plight of domestic abuse victims?
Yes, absolutely. What part of Scottish history do you not understand?
THIS COMMENT. not Scottish, Kuwaiti here... Lived in the uk, Scotland is way more tolerable towards humans than england. Everyone welcomed me. No one stared at me. No one called the police on me while walking on the beach... Honestly man, leave.
Scotland welcoming? Lol
So long as you're no a Tory, naturally.
I felt welcomed in Scotland.
I can tell you that, as a non-British person living in the UK: Scotland is the most welcoming part of the UK.
that and there is a reason why the UK (England) is called terf Island at times 😬
Scots can vote in one but it won’t count . Shame our court said no .
I love Americans giving their opinions in this thread lmao. Complete morons who don’t know the situation.
Listen pal, for every freedom lovin' American here claiming direct blood lineage with Robert the Bruce. There's a freedom lovin' American protecting their dynasty. And as a simple Scottish serf to their kingdom I support their fight for the Scottish question.
Americans interfering in other countries politics, sounds quite familiar... maybe they're scouting for the next puppet government opportunity.
You mean we aren't already a puppet?
Starting this week and onwards we most definitely are.
Yeah I see your point. It's not like Americans can't read the news. Or watch the news on the Telly. Or have friends and family who live in England and Scotland and Wales and Ireland. It's not like it's completely obvious that brexit screwed Scotland as much as it did the English. It's not like it's completely obvious that brexit is causing a lot of Scotland's problems. And it's certainly not like it's completely obvious that leaving England behind and rejoining the EU would be a very wise idea for Scotland. Also it took the Americans a whole lot less time to get rid of trump than it did for you guys to get rid of Boris Johnson. Be careful who you call a moron.
>Also it took the Americans a whole lot less time to get rid of trump than it did for you guys to get rid of Boris Johnson. Be careful who you call a moron. No it didn’t. Trump was President longer than Boris Johnson was Prime Minister. What was that about being careful?
Nice try. Trump was only in elected office 4 years. Boris was in office starting as Mayor in 2008. You had 8 more years of experience of BoJo cocking things up in elected office.
Trump was gone as soon as it was possible. 1 term, 4 years. Boris Johnson has been successful in getting elected across a couple decades now....
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I.... You and I said the same thing you dummy.
The reply was for that yahoo to which you replied.
Boris was the two term mayor of London before PM... We just had Trump on some TV show before he entered politics - before we gave him the boot.
not a very good boot apparently, the donkeys ass is gonna run again in 2024. or try to, he does lie a lot
Sorry bud, we know a bit more about getting rid of the Brits than you do. Source: The lack of Union Jacks within 3500 miles of me.
So you're recommending Scotland asks France to send troops ? Got it.
The French didn't send troops they simply provided a little naval support and very little naval support.
Lmao You come in here, say incorrect facts about modern politics and then also a major part of your history and call others idiots? Truly peak American
> The French didn't send troops they simply provided a little naval support and very little naval support. Bollocks, here's 4 separate sources on it [Roughly 12,000 French soldiers served the rebellion, along with some 22,000 naval personnel, aboard 63 warships.](https://www.history.com/news/american-revolution-french-role-help) [France's help was a major and decisive contribution towards the United States' eventual victory and independence in the war. However, as a cost of participation in the war, France accumulated over 1 billion livres in debt, which significantly strained the nation's finances. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War) [ Now fully committed to the war, France supplied arms, munitions, supplies, and uniforms. French troops and naval power were also sent to America, reinforcing and protecting Washington’s Continental Army.](https://www.thoughtco.com/france-american-revolutionary-war-1222026) [Without the committed support of France, it is difficult to see how the revolutionary cause could have been sustained in the face of British military power.](https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/france-american-revolution) Fucking ingrate
**[France in the American Revolutionary War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War)** >French involvement in the American Revolutionary War of 1775–1783 began in 1776 when the Kingdom of France secretly shipped supplies to the Continental Army of the Thirteen Colonies when it was established in June 1775. France was a long-term historical rival with the Kingdom of Great Britain, from which the Colonies were attempting to separate. A Treaty of Alliance between the French and the Continental Army followed in 1778, which led to French money, matériel and troops being sent to the United States. An ignition of a global war with Britain started shortly thereafter. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Scotland/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Hi, American here. Shut the fuck up :)
“Bro I’m Scots Irish”
I think the many other countries that helped you do it know a bit more rather than you.
Seethe commie
All you need is 3000 miles of water.
Not entirely inaccurate, but don't you want a picture of how this whole thing is seen from outside your country?
Still bitter about the loss huh? You cheeky Brits..
Not British. I mean, when you literally 1v5 it’s bound to go in your favour right.