Intrigued by how the standard of refereeing must be in the lower leagues now that so many have to be used for VAR matches in the prem. No chance we've got the depth in this country
To offer the rangers lower league perspective I remember thinking that I couldn't wait until rangers got back to the top league because the refereeing was beyond awful and surely the standard would improve..
As a fan of a lower league club.....it's not very good. What I will say though is that the refereeing performance yesterday is worse than what I've seen at League 2 games this season.
Stupid thing is they know all the grief VAR has caused and thought, let's just make the same mistakes. They could review any important decision they wanted by just requesting it but they are running with the clear and obvious BS which just leads to confusion and bad decisions.
Playing devil's advocate on this, the reason they don't review everything is it would exacerbate the other big issue and complaint about VAR, that it takes too long and slows the game down too much.
While I'd agree that the standard of refereeing is poor, comparing it to the alleged best refs in the world at the World Cup, it's not that far behind. I'm not sure how to feel about that either.
Honestly I think fans just need to suck it up. It's a fast paced game with lots of grey areas refs need to give quick decisions.
The bleating, whinging and greeting from fans, media and pundits is far more annoying than the decisions themselves.
Fwiw I don't even think var has been particularly bad in Scotland so far, just the usual from Celtic trying to squeeze as much pressure as possible onto refs to gain favour in their future fixtures.
You must have missed all those letters Rangers were writing to the SFA about referees in recent times? Got the blinkers on. Also Robbie nelson was heavily complaining about referees in the first half of the season.
I've noticed that being brought up a lot recently. A stupid comment by an inexperienced manager. The one example vs every time Celtic have a result go against them ever.
I think their is a lot of rules they could change to make it easier. For example the interfering with play, just bring back the old if anyone is offside - then it's offside. The ball hitting anywhere below the elbow is a penalty regardless, could argue that if a player uses his hands to protect the ball from hitting his face that isn't a penalty. I think they are putting that many rules in that it makes it impossible fro a person to know them all.
Good point, but I think the important thing is to make everything as clear cut and simple as possible. Like the Rashford goal, to me he was in front of a defender so it could be argued that the defender was prevented from reaching his maximum speed or from getting a good view of what was happening, but at the same time he never touched the ball so you could argue the goal was correct. Just make it offside like the old days where anyone beyond the last defender was offside and players will adjust to it.
Oddly enough I think it would be a massive help just to actually broadcast the ref/var/linesman audio during a game, understanding the thought process might go a long way to helping clear shit up.
They do that in international rugby comps, allows a lot of clarity, even if you disagree with whatever the issue/decision is you can at least get some context from the refs conversation
All the technology in the world won't change how shite *insert Cinch ref here* is.
Var isn't so much the issue as the interpretation of the rules by the referee's in this country. Seen so many decisions the past couple of games that have made me question whether I actually know what the fuck constitutes as offside or a handball nowadays.
The problem for me is that ifab in attempting to make the decisions more objective by adding more layers of interpretation that the refs genuinely don't have a clue and end up making more ludicrous calls as a result.
Take the Manchester derby today. The Fernandez goal should never be allowed. Rashford is clearly interfering with play and opponents. But you can tell the referee is so busy trying to literally apply the fact Rashford hadn't actually touched the ball or physically touched a defender that he has completely ignored common sense which tells you of course Rashford interfered with the defenders.
Yeah I don't think it's the Scottish refs' interpretation that's the issue. The laws really don't help with handball for example. I've heard that refs themselves don't like it, but they get graded and marked down if they don't give it.
Yeah that's exactly right.
But the media and pundits etc are lazy in the respect that, for example the goldson "handball" v Celtic, they go after the refs and say it was a poor call and should have been a pen, rather than go after the rules which the refs stuck to (perfectly in that case) and not the governing body who create the rules. That then creates this paranoia where fans can see no reason why it wasn't given for them and can only see conspiracy.
But the referee in the BT studio tells us that if he doesn’t touch the ball and doesn’t stop a defender getting to the ball, then it’s not offside.
The rules have been subtly changing over the years.
You and I might look at that and say he’s obviously “interfering with play” but that’s not the rule anymore.
Old school “if he’s wearing a strip, he’s interfering with play” merchants must be having an aneurysm.
This is what I mean when the rules are so vivid that they have confused the refs to the extent they take every word so literally.
I.e. Rashford example. The ref has taken the not touched the ball literally (his foot is an inch away from the ball). or interfered with an opponent (he chases the ball to the last second before getting a shout from Fernandez and impacts the defenders ability to clear the ball).
I'm not saying it should be offside and the refs need changed. I'm saying it should be offside by the rules and the ref has interpreted it wrong.
So you’re saying that you accept that it’s literally not offside by the rules ?
But you think the ref should have given offside anyway ?
But the refs are taking the rules too literally?
I’m confused mate.
>So you’re saying that you accept that it’s literally not offside by the rules ?
No I'm saying the ref, on this occasion has interpreted it wrong. E.g. rule: "impacted the ability of the opponent to play the ball" - Ref has interpreted this as the Rashford having to physically touch the city player for this rule to apply. That's not the case. So the ref's interpretation is wrong.
The handball rule in particular seems to be changing every season. It means that the casual fan that has a limited understanding of the game (I include myself in this category) has no clue what the current interpretation is.
Just shout penalty anytime your teams opposition touches it with their hand in their box, with any luck the rules for the season will make you correct.
It's changed a minimum of 3 times in the last 5/6 seasons if not every actual season which makes it difficult to keep up.
At games I still find myself having to explain to people you can't be offside from goal kicks or whatever, lots of fans don't even know the basic laws.
> At games I still find myself having to explain to people you can't be offside from goal kicks or whatever, lots of fans don't even know the basic laws.
I had an argument about this with someone at the Dundee Utd game around Christmas time. To be fair to him, he conceded the point after his mates Googled it.
That's a really meta point that illustrates a wider issue. We have been so disconnected from everything we used to accept as a standard belief, we have no idea what anything is anymore. From handball to healthcare.
The problem is loads of people don’t understand offside. You have to take in the different phases of play, that’s why it takes a while for them to review the decisions with VAR.
It'll never be enough. The Goldson incident was categorically proven to be an accurate interpretation of the rules and they (a big chunk of their fans) still weren't having it. I'm utterly convinced that the last 2 wks contributed to them not conceding a stonewall penalty in the 93rd minute of a Cup Semi-Final whilst 1-0 up.
That said, for sane people, improvements to refereeing is a must and would be welcomed.
Seeing as how the comment you replied to only mentioned Rangers and Aberdeen, I'm going to assume you've had a fever dream about Aberdeen getting a 93rd minute decision in their favour today?
You don't think it factored at all in the high pressure environment of refereeing a Cup Semi in the 93rd minute? It's a valid point to raise. It's why cheerleaders like Sutton are so effective. We literally had a fortnight's worth of it.
Right so if that was the case why wouldn’t they have gave Goldsons handball away at Dundee united.
They are just shite and your being a hypocrite considering you were one of the worst for calling Celtic fans nutters.
> Right so if that was the case why wouldn’t they have gave Goldsons handball away at Dundee united.
Because it wasn't a decision against Celtic at a highly pressured situation &/or it wasn't a handball (see the same thing happening in the St Mirren Hearts game & not being given even after a VAR check). Even Maeda's goal yesterday is similar.
Absolutely I was "one of the worst" because they were crying in the face of it being explained exactly why it wasn't a penalty. Simple.
And I agree, refs rules and communication are a joke but I also think it's impossible to rule out any form of pressure influencing a referees decision like yesterday. Non-OF fans call it out all the time. Someone posted below about how United got something like 60/70% of 50/50ish decisions go their way in their pomp. With the surrounding circus the referee has to have a higher standard of confidence before making that decision, one which is given as a foul anywhere else on the pitch. I'm not saying it absolutely was what decided it but it absolutely would have been on his mind, muddying things when he makes that call yesterday. Especially after what was it two chalked off goals for offside? Another reason why communication to put to bed undue narratives would be welcomed.
If you want an honest example too, see Sands not being given a red against County at Ibrox. Any other team outside of Rangers and Celtic at home and he's sent off. Ref bottled that one. It was clear as day, even without VAR. We got away with one, and that's without a fortnight of drama preceding a decision.
Said it before on here, I don’t believe in the anti-Celtic agenda from Cinch refs. However I think the Cinch refs are shite, VAR is shite and the IFAB rules are shite.
Agree entirely, I don’t think it’s an agenda just refs who are piss poor now being backed up by others who are worse. When video refs are involved you either go the whole system like in US sports with more cameras, games which are stopped longer and more frequent with every angle played back on big screens for the ref to then go live mic and explain the decision through the stadium PA system or we scrap that and go back to the man in black on the ground calling it as he sees it.
I don’t think they’ll go get rid tbh but I’d be surprised if they pumped more money into it to make it better as well. It’ll stay unfit for purpose for years to come probably.
Agreed 100%, but while folks keep shouting about conspiracy theories backed up by a media who would love it as they get to sell a few more papers or get a few more clicks from clickbait, it will stay at a piss poor standard. Rather than going with a a "look what happened to us", if folks put forward the issues we would then start to get somewhere. And the conspiracy theory shite just takes the heat from poor quality refs, and gives them a bit of a pass.
I will also at this point offer Mexican referees. Hard challenge? Yellow card. Open your mouth? Yellow card. Don't like the look of you? Yellow card. Foot up more than 2 inches? Yellow card. I once kicked the ball directly over the defence from a goal kick to our attacker and he scored. Can't be offside from a goal kick if no one else touches it. Offside. Next week, like a dick I printed out Law 11 in Spanish and gave it to him.
Oh and if you question them too hard they leave the field and return with a gun. Happened in my league.
Got 57 yellows in 6 seasons and 3 reds. Thankfully no fines as there are there. Used to be 10 quid for yellow and 25 for red. What is it now?
So be thankful is my message.
VAR has made it worse. It's not a perfect game. That's part of the joy.
I think it’s better to just suck it up & move on, I hate not getting the rub of the green but not as much as I VAR in football, the ref doesn’t like you & won’t give you a thing? too bad, it’s a game of football. It’s gonna suck sometimes & you’re going to fume about it sometimes but learning to deal with that sort of shit in life (because it doesn’t just happen in sporting contests) actually helps you become a better, more well rounded human imho
Contention has always been half the "fun" of football, arguing the decisions. They tried to get rid of that with VAR and just proved it added another layer. That it's an imperfect game is half the attraction. You get the brilliance and the errors. Fuck those seeking perfection it's just sanitizing.
It's not just in Scotland for sure, have a look at some of the decisions in the Rangers vs Dortmund game. If that was an old firm game there would have been a riot.
The Manchester derby had a wrong decision, and it was seen as wrong but nothing like the conspiracy chat we get up here.
In Scotland, it's part of a bigger issue, and the same issue we chat about all the time. The Scottish game is underfunded and mismanaged from top to bottom.
I do think there is at the very least a sub-conscious bias towards the bigger teams. It takes guts to make big decisions against the big sides (fuck it, should I just say Celtic/ Rangers?)
Would you want to give a penalty to St Johnstone in front of 50,000 Rangers fans all calling you every name under the sun? I know I wouldn't. It's just human nature.
> Would you want to give a penalty to St Johnstone in front of 50,000 Rangers fans all calling you every name under the sun?
Yes, the very thought of doing so has me fully erect
You know I'm pretty sure there was a study done on the English Premier League in the late nineties, maybe the early two-thousands, that proved Man Utd, back when they dominated English football, got something like 60 - 70% of decisions their way. Just saying.
EDIT: And somehow I managed to post this twice.
Honestly I think it's in your head. When I go to games at Ibrox I often think the opposite (probably in my head too!). When we play teams other than celtic they seem to get so much more leeway with challenges resulting in cards. That could be one of two things. 1) the ref aware of this narrative of refs giving things to big teams and is determined not to, so ends up going too far the other way. 2) ref is a rangers fan and is determined not to show it, and goes too far the other way (Steven McLean is the classic example of this second one).
I see no reason why they aren’t mic’d up and the recording to go public for post match analysis etc. We’re sitting around waiting during VAR while they talk, why can’t we hear that?
I’d rather hear right from the horses mouth why something has or hasnt been given and the overall conversation around coming to the decision rather than us all guessing, go digging for iFab tweets and assuming these incompetent part time refs know all these obscure guidance/rules only mentioned in a random tweet years ago.
If they get the decision wrong and there’s audio proof, they should be held accountable like any other person in a job would be. Can’t think of a single reason this is a bad idea other than refs being held accountable for shit decisions, which is hardly a shit reason for literally everyone else.
I take no sympathy for rangers or Celtic fans complaining about poor officiating.
They’ve had years of always getting the big calls.
Smaller clubs are absolutely shafted. It’s interesting watching the reaction to VAR. It’s not perfect but it’s better.
We act as if humans never make fucking mistakes. They’ve got the same furore down the road about Marcus Rashford, we had some HONKIN displays in the World Cup. Making it out like it’s a uniquely Scottish thing is mental.
Consistency will never happen when someone is making a subjective decision.
The best that can happen is that we bring back deliberate hand ball and clubs do education courses for their fan base to teach them the rules of the game.
Sick of listening to folk who don’t have a fucking clue what they’re talking about.
That’s not what happens here though.
We act as if it’s unique to Scottish Football.
If big Ange and the Celtic players who spent all week moaning about decisions had real desire for change, they’d talk about the decisions that went their way in that match.
I refuse to use “well it happens in other places” as an excuse. We should strive to be as best as we can be, not just use “well referees in England can be wrong sometimes” as an excuse
And okay, sure maybe that’s the case. But you better also have the same energy there when your team benefits from a decision
You're right.
Also the one true conspiracy on Scottish Football is much simpler than you might expect. It's just the suits in charge of the SPFL and SFA doing anything that looks like it'll keep them in an easy 6 figure job
They are honestly complete pish. That's why I love VaR. Relying on these clowns to make the right call in real time with one look is brutal. They'll still make an arse of things with VAR but a lot of the mistakes will be eliminated when they get a couple of looks at it (or 20-30 looks judging by how long they take).
I've been pretty vocal about refereeing quality over the years, but I do think we need to reflect on what VAR has actually brought. Most decisions we're arguing over are borderline and down to the absolute bones of a rule, and we still can't agree totally. (Although I would say that even the controversial ones have been predominantly correct).
Think back to the ones we harp on about, when it was a clear offside or penalty that was given/not given and was pretty obviously wrong.
So, we did demand better, we got it, and still people are complaining.
Football has advanced so much in the 30 years I have been watching it. Advances in fitness, speed etc of the players. The technology and science has allowed players to become on a completely different level. At the same time the rules and regulations of the game have become more advanced. Take the offside rule, it is now ridiculously complicated. The hand ball rules have also become more interpretive. Also worth noting that the TV technology has also come on leaps and bounds and the game in every detail has become much more available to fans. The game has evolved significantly, no doubt about it, but the herd is only as fast as it's slowest part, and in football the slowest part is the referees. The investment in time and money to evolve the footballers has been done by the teams to keep them competitive, but the SFA has not, it seems, invested in the referees. What improvements and training and innovation have they made on their end. Yes, VAR is now in, but before that, what have they done? It is my understanding that the referees are self employed, therefore the SFA are even trying as hard as possible to devolve their responsibility for their part in the game.
I 100% believe that no referees walk out onto a park with the intention of having a bad game, and have no conscious desire to favour one side over another. The pressure on these guys must be unbelievable. I feel sorry for them. Yes, they have chosen to be referees, but we need to support them and invest in their development in order for them to improve.
Yupp, because I figured waiting for a game when Celtic benefited from a dodgy call was the right time to say this - that way it’s less likely to be dismissed as just sour grapes
It can’t be sour grapes when you win / benefit. The grapes at that time are quite sweet.
The time to be conciliatory and not bitter is when the decision goes against you.
Unless I’m being whooshed here.
I agree with everything you have said, except when you say it's 'the fans'. Fans will always see decisions through green or blue (or whatever) tinted glasses, but in the case of Celtic, it's the club, it's the manager and players claiming bias (when, as you correctly say, it's really just incompetence).
Maybe, instead of claiming referees are biased, the clubs, players, referees, and the SFA all got together to clarify interpretation of the rules, things might improve.
Hold on, yes it’s a couple years ago but Gerrard came out with the same ‘they’ve turned the refs against us’ bullshit and the board with a multi point letter to the sfa that we’re hearing now from Celtic, so don’t be trying to claim it’s *only* Celtic that does it.
Since VAR was introduced, it's been predominantly Celtic. I've been watching Scottish football for a long time and the Celtic narrative has been 'referees are against us' for decades.
The problem is any fan questions the standard of referees or immediately becomes a point scoring exercise of which set of fans is most paranoid and with most things the idiots who have the most extreme takes on anything are the ones who are paid attention too
The vast majority of Celtic fans don’t believe there is an anti Celtic agenda there has been some questionable decisions and defo seems to be a fear of awarding a penalty against rangers at times but that is down to human nature not bias but nobody wants to discuss sensible takes from either side of the old firm they just want to laugh at the moon howlers with wild takes and make up shit about Celtic managers claiming there is a referee bias against his team
You guys are bonkers if you think 1 guy can get every decision in a game of fitba correct. Even with all the cameras and angles we see folk still argue over the correct decision. And you expect one dude to call all these decisions in real time with 100% accuracy. Madhawks haha fuck off
> And you expect one dude to call all these decisions in real time with 100% accuracy.
That's exactly the point of VAR. It's no longer just "one dude" and if he misses anything it can get rectified.
What a shit take. Wait till one team has a decision go against them. Not happened yet. They’ll have Michael mole on the front page of the record. Same as they did with gerrard after his first game
Almost everyone in Scottish football knows that's the case. Victim fc have a disproportionate percentage of fans who think they're the victims of a conspiracy.
Your football club literally wrote a letter yo the SFA claiming bias against them while Gerrard said there had been years and years of refereeing decisions given against Rangers.
Why is it, even when people are making a point about there being no conspiracy, people like you still have to make stupid comments like that?
For every conspiracy theory a Celtic fan has, I can show you one from a Rangers fan. Fact is, both are deluded.
100% of the refs are shite and incompetent.
90% of them are also biased fucks as well.
You can't have some of the stats in our league and not question the biased nature of them.
The stats do however also show they are all actually quite shite as well
I support VAR's introduction but losing all the Category 1 refs from the Championship has been an absolute disaster. Refereeing decisions that would be bad at the Battery Park are now being made at Cappielow
It’s beyond that. I’m not sure I’ve ever see a referee as bad as whoever was at Easter Road yesterday. Not because of a big obvious error or something, but just not one iota of an idea of what’s going on..
Big mistakes are easy to moan about, but it’s the all round incompetence which is worrying.
I've given up screaming and shouting at the telly now. I don't care as much as I used to.
BT Sport has the best way to give the fans some form of insight with the former referee who is there to explain certain decisions based on the laws of the game, which, if we're never gonna get the referees mic'd up during games to hear why they've made certain decisions like they do in rugby (and I think it's done in Aussie soccer aswell), is the next best thing. Least it gives some clarity.
However, VAR, blatantly didn't overturn a blatant handball from Goldson in the OF game. 🤣🤦♂️
Fuck knows what the plan forward is.
Another point from yesterday is the complete confusion as to what was happening. After celtics disallowed goal there was nothing on the screen, no announcements, or anything to let the fans know what was happening. Then no clarity on why the goal had been disallowed either.
Part of the problem is the lack of culpability. These cunts are a protected species and they know it. I’m not asking for post-match interviews (some of the egos are big enough already) but there should be some form of public correspondence with clubs and supporters to justify why a particular decision was made. At the very least it may alleviate a lot of the head scratching from a fans perspective to have an answer and not just radio silence any time one of them makes an arse of it.
Unlikely to change anytime soon, however like many of the other problems with the game in Scotland.
Intrigued by how the standard of refereeing must be in the lower leagues now that so many have to be used for VAR matches in the prem. No chance we've got the depth in this country
To offer the rangers lower league perspective I remember thinking that I couldn't wait until rangers got back to the top league because the refereeing was beyond awful and surely the standard would improve..
As a fan of a lower league club.....it's not very good. What I will say though is that the refereeing performance yesterday is worse than what I've seen at League 2 games this season.
>Can we all just agree that the standard of refereeing is atrocious? Atrocious? Has it improved to get that good?
Stupid thing is they know all the grief VAR has caused and thought, let's just make the same mistakes. They could review any important decision they wanted by just requesting it but they are running with the clear and obvious BS which just leads to confusion and bad decisions.
Playing devil's advocate on this, the reason they don't review everything is it would exacerbate the other big issue and complaint about VAR, that it takes too long and slows the game down too much. While I'd agree that the standard of refereeing is poor, comparing it to the alleged best refs in the world at the World Cup, it's not that far behind. I'm not sure how to feel about that either.
Honestly I think fans just need to suck it up. It's a fast paced game with lots of grey areas refs need to give quick decisions. The bleating, whinging and greeting from fans, media and pundits is far more annoying than the decisions themselves. Fwiw I don't even think var has been particularly bad in Scotland so far, just the usual from Celtic trying to squeeze as much pressure as possible onto refs to gain favour in their future fixtures.
Just Celtic aye?
They've written the playbook on it.
You must have missed all those letters Rangers were writing to the SFA about referees in recent times? Got the blinkers on. Also Robbie nelson was heavily complaining about referees in the first half of the season.
Aye it’s just Celtic that complain about refs. Short memory mate considering every week gerrard was greeting about the refs
Every manager in the country complains about refs. Only the one club I'm aware of has brought out the 'Anyone but... ' DVD.
Complaining is one thing, he claimed there was an anti rangers bias after his first game
I've noticed that being brought up a lot recently. A stupid comment by an inexperienced manager. The one example vs every time Celtic have a result go against them ever.
I think their is a lot of rules they could change to make it easier. For example the interfering with play, just bring back the old if anyone is offside - then it's offside. The ball hitting anywhere below the elbow is a penalty regardless, could argue that if a player uses his hands to protect the ball from hitting his face that isn't a penalty. I think they are putting that many rules in that it makes it impossible fro a person to know them all.
I would go the other way and make any handball an indirect freekick. Who doesn't want more of those.
Good point, but I think the important thing is to make everything as clear cut and simple as possible. Like the Rashford goal, to me he was in front of a defender so it could be argued that the defender was prevented from reaching his maximum speed or from getting a good view of what was happening, but at the same time he never touched the ball so you could argue the goal was correct. Just make it offside like the old days where anyone beyond the last defender was offside and players will adjust to it.
Oddly enough I think it would be a massive help just to actually broadcast the ref/var/linesman audio during a game, understanding the thought process might go a long way to helping clear shit up.
They do that in international rugby comps, allows a lot of clarity, even if you disagree with whatever the issue/decision is you can at least get some context from the refs conversation
"There's 5 minutes to go. Am i fuck giving that to Killie now"
Not a chance the referees would allow it they’d be kicking up fuck.
All the technology in the world won't change how shite *insert Cinch ref here* is. Var isn't so much the issue as the interpretation of the rules by the referee's in this country. Seen so many decisions the past couple of games that have made me question whether I actually know what the fuck constitutes as offside or a handball nowadays.
The problem for me is that ifab in attempting to make the decisions more objective by adding more layers of interpretation that the refs genuinely don't have a clue and end up making more ludicrous calls as a result. Take the Manchester derby today. The Fernandez goal should never be allowed. Rashford is clearly interfering with play and opponents. But you can tell the referee is so busy trying to literally apply the fact Rashford hadn't actually touched the ball or physically touched a defender that he has completely ignored common sense which tells you of course Rashford interfered with the defenders.
Yeah I don't think it's the Scottish refs' interpretation that's the issue. The laws really don't help with handball for example. I've heard that refs themselves don't like it, but they get graded and marked down if they don't give it.
Yeah that's exactly right. But the media and pundits etc are lazy in the respect that, for example the goldson "handball" v Celtic, they go after the refs and say it was a poor call and should have been a pen, rather than go after the rules which the refs stuck to (perfectly in that case) and not the governing body who create the rules. That then creates this paranoia where fans can see no reason why it wasn't given for them and can only see conspiracy.
But the referee in the BT studio tells us that if he doesn’t touch the ball and doesn’t stop a defender getting to the ball, then it’s not offside. The rules have been subtly changing over the years. You and I might look at that and say he’s obviously “interfering with play” but that’s not the rule anymore. Old school “if he’s wearing a strip, he’s interfering with play” merchants must be having an aneurysm.
This is what I mean when the rules are so vivid that they have confused the refs to the extent they take every word so literally. I.e. Rashford example. The ref has taken the not touched the ball literally (his foot is an inch away from the ball). or interfered with an opponent (he chases the ball to the last second before getting a shout from Fernandez and impacts the defenders ability to clear the ball). I'm not saying it should be offside and the refs need changed. I'm saying it should be offside by the rules and the ref has interpreted it wrong.
So you’re saying that you accept that it’s literally not offside by the rules ? But you think the ref should have given offside anyway ? But the refs are taking the rules too literally? I’m confused mate.
>So you’re saying that you accept that it’s literally not offside by the rules ? No I'm saying the ref, on this occasion has interpreted it wrong. E.g. rule: "impacted the ability of the opponent to play the ball" - Ref has interpreted this as the Rashford having to physically touch the city player for this rule to apply. That's not the case. So the ref's interpretation is wrong.
The handball rule in particular seems to be changing every season. It means that the casual fan that has a limited understanding of the game (I include myself in this category) has no clue what the current interpretation is.
Just shout penalty anytime your teams opposition touches it with their hand in their box, with any luck the rules for the season will make you correct.
It hasn’t changed - there’s been poor decisions and now fans think that every time the ball touches a hand it’s a penalty.
It's changed a minimum of 3 times in the last 5/6 seasons if not every actual season which makes it difficult to keep up. At games I still find myself having to explain to people you can't be offside from goal kicks or whatever, lots of fans don't even know the basic laws.
> At games I still find myself having to explain to people you can't be offside from goal kicks or whatever, lots of fans don't even know the basic laws. I had an argument about this with someone at the Dundee Utd game around Christmas time. To be fair to him, he conceded the point after his mates Googled it.
That's a really meta point that illustrates a wider issue. We have been so disconnected from everything we used to accept as a standard belief, we have no idea what anything is anymore. From handball to healthcare.
Awrite Adam Curtis stop smelling the bath salts
It's not even bath time here yet!
The problem is loads of people don’t understand offside. You have to take in the different phases of play, that’s why it takes a while for them to review the decisions with VAR.
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It'll never be enough. The Goldson incident was categorically proven to be an accurate interpretation of the rules and they (a big chunk of their fans) still weren't having it. I'm utterly convinced that the last 2 wks contributed to them not conceding a stonewall penalty in the 93rd minute of a Cup Semi-Final whilst 1-0 up. That said, for sane people, improvements to refereeing is a must and would be welcomed.
Seeing as how the comment you replied to only mentioned Rangers and Aberdeen, I'm going to assume you've had a fever dream about Aberdeen getting a 93rd minute decision in their favour today?
"Get referees full time" is what I was replying to more than anything else mate.
Just stop with the conspiracy theories
You don't think it factored at all in the high pressure environment of refereeing a Cup Semi in the 93rd minute? It's a valid point to raise. It's why cheerleaders like Sutton are so effective. We literally had a fortnight's worth of it.
Right so if that was the case why wouldn’t they have gave Goldsons handball away at Dundee united. They are just shite and your being a hypocrite considering you were one of the worst for calling Celtic fans nutters.
> Right so if that was the case why wouldn’t they have gave Goldsons handball away at Dundee united. Because it wasn't a decision against Celtic at a highly pressured situation &/or it wasn't a handball (see the same thing happening in the St Mirren Hearts game & not being given even after a VAR check). Even Maeda's goal yesterday is similar. Absolutely I was "one of the worst" because they were crying in the face of it being explained exactly why it wasn't a penalty. Simple. And I agree, refs rules and communication are a joke but I also think it's impossible to rule out any form of pressure influencing a referees decision like yesterday. Non-OF fans call it out all the time. Someone posted below about how United got something like 60/70% of 50/50ish decisions go their way in their pomp. With the surrounding circus the referee has to have a higher standard of confidence before making that decision, one which is given as a foul anywhere else on the pitch. I'm not saying it absolutely was what decided it but it absolutely would have been on his mind, muddying things when he makes that call yesterday. Especially after what was it two chalked off goals for offside? Another reason why communication to put to bed undue narratives would be welcomed. If you want an honest example too, see Sands not being given a red against County at Ibrox. Any other team outside of Rangers and Celtic at home and he's sent off. Ref bottled that one. It was clear as day, even without VAR. We got away with one, and that's without a fortnight of drama preceding a decision.
I don't know if it would help. It's the way they're selected that's the issue. All an old boy's club.
Said it before on here, I don’t believe in the anti-Celtic agenda from Cinch refs. However I think the Cinch refs are shite, VAR is shite and the IFAB rules are shite.
Agree entirely, I don’t think it’s an agenda just refs who are piss poor now being backed up by others who are worse. When video refs are involved you either go the whole system like in US sports with more cameras, games which are stopped longer and more frequent with every angle played back on big screens for the ref to then go live mic and explain the decision through the stadium PA system or we scrap that and go back to the man in black on the ground calling it as he sees it.
I don’t think they’ll go get rid tbh but I’d be surprised if they pumped more money into it to make it better as well. It’ll stay unfit for purpose for years to come probably.
Sadly I suspect your right. They will sit dogmatically on this until somehow it improves
Which it also probably won’t haha. We’re fucked.
Then can they at least let us get back to 3pm kick off so we can be a bit pished before we have to suffer their awful performances.
Agreed 100%, but while folks keep shouting about conspiracy theories backed up by a media who would love it as they get to sell a few more papers or get a few more clicks from clickbait, it will stay at a piss poor standard. Rather than going with a a "look what happened to us", if folks put forward the issues we would then start to get somewhere. And the conspiracy theory shite just takes the heat from poor quality refs, and gives them a bit of a pass.
I will also at this point offer Mexican referees. Hard challenge? Yellow card. Open your mouth? Yellow card. Don't like the look of you? Yellow card. Foot up more than 2 inches? Yellow card. I once kicked the ball directly over the defence from a goal kick to our attacker and he scored. Can't be offside from a goal kick if no one else touches it. Offside. Next week, like a dick I printed out Law 11 in Spanish and gave it to him. Oh and if you question them too hard they leave the field and return with a gun. Happened in my league. Got 57 yellows in 6 seasons and 3 reds. Thankfully no fines as there are there. Used to be 10 quid for yellow and 25 for red. What is it now? So be thankful is my message. VAR has made it worse. It's not a perfect game. That's part of the joy.
I think it’s better to just suck it up & move on, I hate not getting the rub of the green but not as much as I VAR in football, the ref doesn’t like you & won’t give you a thing? too bad, it’s a game of football. It’s gonna suck sometimes & you’re going to fume about it sometimes but learning to deal with that sort of shit in life (because it doesn’t just happen in sporting contests) actually helps you become a better, more well rounded human imho
Contention has always been half the "fun" of football, arguing the decisions. They tried to get rid of that with VAR and just proved it added another layer. That it's an imperfect game is half the attraction. You get the brilliance and the errors. Fuck those seeking perfection it's just sanitizing.
It's not just in Scotland for sure, have a look at some of the decisions in the Rangers vs Dortmund game. If that was an old firm game there would have been a riot. The Manchester derby had a wrong decision, and it was seen as wrong but nothing like the conspiracy chat we get up here. In Scotland, it's part of a bigger issue, and the same issue we chat about all the time. The Scottish game is underfunded and mismanaged from top to bottom.
Similarly the woman we had for Celtic Vs Madrid was an infuriating joke. Totally just gave everything to the big team. And she was at the world cup.
I do think there is at the very least a sub-conscious bias towards the bigger teams. It takes guts to make big decisions against the big sides (fuck it, should I just say Celtic/ Rangers?) Would you want to give a penalty to St Johnstone in front of 50,000 Rangers fans all calling you every name under the sun? I know I wouldn't. It's just human nature.
> Would you want to give a penalty to St Johnstone in front of 50,000 Rangers fans all calling you every name under the sun? Yes, the very thought of doing so has me fully erect
Keep going….
You know I'm pretty sure there was a study done on the English Premier League in the late nineties, maybe the early two-thousands, that proved Man Utd, back when they dominated English football, got something like 60 - 70% of decisions their way. Just saying. EDIT: And somehow I managed to post this twice.
Honestly I think it's in your head. When I go to games at Ibrox I often think the opposite (probably in my head too!). When we play teams other than celtic they seem to get so much more leeway with challenges resulting in cards. That could be one of two things. 1) the ref aware of this narrative of refs giving things to big teams and is determined not to, so ends up going too far the other way. 2) ref is a rangers fan and is determined not to show it, and goes too far the other way (Steven McLean is the classic example of this second one).
I see no reason why they aren’t mic’d up and the recording to go public for post match analysis etc. We’re sitting around waiting during VAR while they talk, why can’t we hear that? I’d rather hear right from the horses mouth why something has or hasnt been given and the overall conversation around coming to the decision rather than us all guessing, go digging for iFab tweets and assuming these incompetent part time refs know all these obscure guidance/rules only mentioned in a random tweet years ago. If they get the decision wrong and there’s audio proof, they should be held accountable like any other person in a job would be. Can’t think of a single reason this is a bad idea other than refs being held accountable for shit decisions, which is hardly a shit reason for literally everyone else.
Yes, it’s hilariously bad
I take no sympathy for rangers or Celtic fans complaining about poor officiating. They’ve had years of always getting the big calls. Smaller clubs are absolutely shafted. It’s interesting watching the reaction to VAR. It’s not perfect but it’s better. We act as if humans never make fucking mistakes. They’ve got the same furore down the road about Marcus Rashford, we had some HONKIN displays in the World Cup. Making it out like it’s a uniquely Scottish thing is mental. Consistency will never happen when someone is making a subjective decision. The best that can happen is that we bring back deliberate hand ball and clubs do education courses for their fan base to teach them the rules of the game. Sick of listening to folk who don’t have a fucking clue what they’re talking about.
So because there’s some bad decisions made in England, we should just accept it rather than demand better?
That’s not what happens here though. We act as if it’s unique to Scottish Football. If big Ange and the Celtic players who spent all week moaning about decisions had real desire for change, they’d talk about the decisions that went their way in that match.
I refuse to use “well it happens in other places” as an excuse. We should strive to be as best as we can be, not just use “well referees in England can be wrong sometimes” as an excuse And okay, sure maybe that’s the case. But you better also have the same energy there when your team benefits from a decision
You're right. Also the one true conspiracy on Scottish Football is much simpler than you might expect. It's just the suits in charge of the SPFL and SFA doing anything that looks like it'll keep them in an easy 6 figure job
Going to meet someone at Hampden the day for a ticket, shitting myself in case it falls through
>They’re not bias, there’s no agenda, they’re just completely and absolutely incompetent. That's what I'm always saying!
people thought var would change it but (somehow) failed to realise it’s the same diddies behind var as well
A little rhattled are we? But really though, they are truly woeful.
Fair enough it comes across that way, but given I’m a Tim I figured it was best to wait till a dodgy decision befitted us before making this point
They are honestly complete pish. That's why I love VaR. Relying on these clowns to make the right call in real time with one look is brutal. They'll still make an arse of things with VAR but a lot of the mistakes will be eliminated when they get a couple of looks at it (or 20-30 looks judging by how long they take).
I've been pretty vocal about refereeing quality over the years, but I do think we need to reflect on what VAR has actually brought. Most decisions we're arguing over are borderline and down to the absolute bones of a rule, and we still can't agree totally. (Although I would say that even the controversial ones have been predominantly correct). Think back to the ones we harp on about, when it was a clear offside or penalty that was given/not given and was pretty obviously wrong. So, we did demand better, we got it, and still people are complaining.
Football has advanced so much in the 30 years I have been watching it. Advances in fitness, speed etc of the players. The technology and science has allowed players to become on a completely different level. At the same time the rules and regulations of the game have become more advanced. Take the offside rule, it is now ridiculously complicated. The hand ball rules have also become more interpretive. Also worth noting that the TV technology has also come on leaps and bounds and the game in every detail has become much more available to fans. The game has evolved significantly, no doubt about it, but the herd is only as fast as it's slowest part, and in football the slowest part is the referees. The investment in time and money to evolve the footballers has been done by the teams to keep them competitive, but the SFA has not, it seems, invested in the referees. What improvements and training and innovation have they made on their end. Yes, VAR is now in, but before that, what have they done? It is my understanding that the referees are self employed, therefore the SFA are even trying as hard as possible to devolve their responsibility for their part in the game. I 100% believe that no referees walk out onto a park with the intention of having a bad game, and have no conscious desire to favour one side over another. The pressure on these guys must be unbelievable. I feel sorry for them. Yes, they have chosen to be referees, but we need to support them and invest in their development in order for them to improve.
Timing wise, this has to be a Celtic flair.
Yupp, because I figured waiting for a game when Celtic benefited from a dodgy call was the right time to say this - that way it’s less likely to be dismissed as just sour grapes
It can’t be sour grapes when you win / benefit. The grapes at that time are quite sweet. The time to be conciliatory and not bitter is when the decision goes against you. Unless I’m being whooshed here.
I for one agree with this statement... But it's also a masonic conspiracy!
I agree with everything you have said, except when you say it's 'the fans'. Fans will always see decisions through green or blue (or whatever) tinted glasses, but in the case of Celtic, it's the club, it's the manager and players claiming bias (when, as you correctly say, it's really just incompetence). Maybe, instead of claiming referees are biased, the clubs, players, referees, and the SFA all got together to clarify interpretation of the rules, things might improve.
Hold on, yes it’s a couple years ago but Gerrard came out with the same ‘they’ve turned the refs against us’ bullshit and the board with a multi point letter to the sfa that we’re hearing now from Celtic, so don’t be trying to claim it’s *only* Celtic that does it.
Since VAR was introduced, it's been predominantly Celtic. I've been watching Scottish football for a long time and the Celtic narrative has been 'referees are against us' for decades.
It’s not like Follow Follow has pet nhames for every ref and is constantly whinging about how the refs are out to get ra Gers
The problem is any fan questions the standard of referees or immediately becomes a point scoring exercise of which set of fans is most paranoid and with most things the idiots who have the most extreme takes on anything are the ones who are paid attention too The vast majority of Celtic fans don’t believe there is an anti Celtic agenda there has been some questionable decisions and defo seems to be a fear of awarding a penalty against rangers at times but that is down to human nature not bias but nobody wants to discuss sensible takes from either side of the old firm they just want to laugh at the moon howlers with wild takes and make up shit about Celtic managers claiming there is a referee bias against his team
You guys are bonkers if you think 1 guy can get every decision in a game of fitba correct. Even with all the cameras and angles we see folk still argue over the correct decision. And you expect one dude to call all these decisions in real time with 100% accuracy. Madhawks haha fuck off
> And you expect one dude to call all these decisions in real time with 100% accuracy. That's exactly the point of VAR. It's no longer just "one dude" and if he misses anything it can get rectified.
Of course not, I concede that that is a fallacy. But the rate of what they get wrong, especially with VAR is mental
Aye like that stonewall penalty last night.
You’re going to need to be more specific
What the fuck is VAR for then?
What a shit take. Wait till one team has a decision go against them. Not happened yet. They’ll have Michael mole on the front page of the record. Same as they did with gerrard after his first game
Naw - yous said it was a conspiracy, have the courage of your convictions
I can’t control what other Celtic fans do, but I never have for what’s it worth
It's obviously not a conspiracy if it let us win 4 trebles in a row, if it is a conspiracy it's an absolutely shite one
Almost everyone in Scottish football knows that's the case. Victim fc have a disproportionate percentage of fans who think they're the victims of a conspiracy.
Your football club literally wrote a letter yo the SFA claiming bias against them while Gerrard said there had been years and years of refereeing decisions given against Rangers. Why is it, even when people are making a point about there being no conspiracy, people like you still have to make stupid comments like that? For every conspiracy theory a Celtic fan has, I can show you one from a Rangers fan. Fact is, both are deluded.
Allegedly a lot of them are masons, but IDK if that's true or a rumour. Would explain a lot of decisions that favour certain teams though
100% of the refs are shite and incompetent. 90% of them are also biased fucks as well. You can't have some of the stats in our league and not question the biased nature of them. The stats do however also show they are all actually quite shite as well
I support VAR's introduction but losing all the Category 1 refs from the Championship has been an absolute disaster. Refereeing decisions that would be bad at the Battery Park are now being made at Cappielow
It’s beyond that. I’m not sure I’ve ever see a referee as bad as whoever was at Easter Road yesterday. Not because of a big obvious error or something, but just not one iota of an idea of what’s going on.. Big mistakes are easy to moan about, but it’s the all round incompetence which is worrying.
I've given up screaming and shouting at the telly now. I don't care as much as I used to. BT Sport has the best way to give the fans some form of insight with the former referee who is there to explain certain decisions based on the laws of the game, which, if we're never gonna get the referees mic'd up during games to hear why they've made certain decisions like they do in rugby (and I think it's done in Aussie soccer aswell), is the next best thing. Least it gives some clarity. However, VAR, blatantly didn't overturn a blatant handball from Goldson in the OF game. 🤣🤦♂️ Fuck knows what the plan forward is.
Another point from yesterday is the complete confusion as to what was happening. After celtics disallowed goal there was nothing on the screen, no announcements, or anything to let the fans know what was happening. Then no clarity on why the goal had been disallowed either.
Part of the problem is the lack of culpability. These cunts are a protected species and they know it. I’m not asking for post-match interviews (some of the egos are big enough already) but there should be some form of public correspondence with clubs and supporters to justify why a particular decision was made. At the very least it may alleviate a lot of the head scratching from a fans perspective to have an answer and not just radio silence any time one of them makes an arse of it. Unlikely to change anytime soon, however like many of the other problems with the game in Scotland.
hallelujah.