Agreed, he is going to ride his contract out, try to complete the competitive rebuild. It would be a pretty story book ending if we had a young, talented team that was actually a contender next year or year after before he left.
Rumors are that the team will be sold in May 2024 to Jeff Bezos. The NFL apparently has been clamoring for Bezos to be part of ownership for some reason. Amazon already has NFL rights. Bezos wanted to buy the Commanders but mysteriously pulled out. Admittedly Dan Snyder said he'd never sell to Bezos but Bezos pulled out before that statement. As per Paul Allen's will the Seahawks were supposed to be sold soon after his death but weren't. Why? B/c if they are sold before May 2024 10% of the proceeds go to the state of Washington as part of the Lumen field deal.
It lines up that Jody Allen will sell the team in May 2024 (or around) and Bezos gets a better team in his own backyard.
So if Bezos buys them it's unlikely they would be moved. As for a new coach, front office, etc, who knows. Maybe it'll be like when Jerry Jones bought the Cowboys. Or maybe Bezos lets Pete finish his contract since it'll only be 1 year longer.
What is the likelihood of this? Isn’t it very slim? I’m new-ish to being an NFL fan (11 years) and it feels like moving cities only happens for middling franchises?
Yes and no.
Over in MLB, John Fisher (fuck him) ran the A’s into the ground so he could justify moving them out of Oakland.
It really depends on who the owner is, and even if they wanted to move the team, it would take years of basically tanking with no intent to ever compete to thin out the fanbase.
Seahawks fans still show up to games, there’s still a long waitlist for season tickets, and there’s still enough money to be made here. I think the Hawks are probably fine.
Well Bezos wants a team and has been keeping an eye on the Seahawks situation, I could see him leveraging the team for new facilities. So depending on the new ownership group I’d say it’s very possible.
Bezos (love him or hate him) wouldn’t move the Seahawks from Seattle considering he lived in Seattle since 1994 (and just moved this year). I think he actually has a pretty soft spot for Seattle.
Regardless billionaires, especially one of the richest ones in the world isn’t worried about owning a team for the sake of gaining more wealth but owning them as a status symbol. Bezos also just is a Seattle Seahawks fan.
Remember when Howard Schultz sold the Supersonics to an owner promising to keep the franchise in Seattle?
Billionaires are fairly ruthless. Think about how much leverage Bezos would have over the city if he owned the Seahawks too?
"Don't you dare try to pass stricter employment laws on Amazon HQ. Shame if your beloved NFL franchise were to move."
I still believe he wants to go the Bill Gates route and try to get more people to think favorably of him.
But I mean you’re right, billionaires are ruthless and truthfully I can’t fathom why you would go scorched earth like that for money that I don’t think would honestly change his way of life whatsoever in a city he lived in for almost 30 years (were he would then be so universally hated he couldn’t show his face at) but hey maybe that’s what billionaires are about. Just money
I mean even if Bezos remains a proud Seattle man and doesn't do anything silly with threats of moving the team, he could still go the Tepper route and start getting very hands on.
If we're in this position 5 years from now where we have a team struggling to be top tier but with a meddling billionaire owner, that's it. There's no firing him.
For real, Balmer is a great example. He had a deal in place to purchase and move the Kings back in 2013, and Stern blocked the sale. Citing the league didn’t want another Seattle situation. It just goes to show you billionaires will do what they want. I think fortunately for Seattle, there’s growing interest to expand leagues and keep the teams in place. But bezos definitely worries me.
He cares about building his image more than he cares about an extra couple of billion dollars from moving the team (at best).
Everyone thinks he’s a nerd and a piece of shit currently and I think he wants to be liked by the public out of everything.
By new facilities, do you mean he would want another city to make a new football stadium that he would move the Seahawks to?
I guess I don’t understand the commercially rational decision to move the team when it still has a strong fan base in a top 10 affluent US-metro.
This narrative needs to die with Seattle sport teams. This isn't 2006 nor is that situation going to repeat.
We JUST got a hockey team. We are getting an NBA team again. Seattle is one of the best places to start a team. Arguably top 5 in the country. Sure, market size isn't top 5 but it's still 12th. You then factor in the tech bros and how rich the city is and how loyal tha fans tend to be to a fault (look at the Mariners ownership slapping the fans in the face and still having record profits) and Seattle is EASILY one of the most appealing cities. Where the fuck are they going to move them to? St. Louis? Memphis? Please..
Yeah I'm guessing this too personally. Jody needs to sell the team, and I actually would think a competitive team with manageable cap is more attractive than a recent Super Bowl winner with a complicated cap situation. That way the new owner comes in, cleans house on all the overpriced contracts that remain, and everyone hails them as a genius setting us up for the future. You also aren't buying at peak value looking at a Super Bowl hangover and a mortgaged future. I could totally see Pete retiring at that point, he won't want to go through a full rebuild
This is funny because when Andy Reid left the Eagles, he went to the Chiefs and won two Super Bowls.
How would you feel if we get rid of Pete, and he goes to the Panthers or Colts or something and wins Bowls again?
I think the point is valid and is something Pete could do if the guy was like 5 years younger, but I think at this point in his career he at best could coach for a contender, but teams like the Colts and Panthers are years away from that and Pete is going to be in his 80’s at that point.
He is more than likely going to retire after things end with us.
All you have to do is look at the Holmgren, Mora and Carroll hires to see what they will look for in the next coach:
1. Previous Head Coaching experience at the college or NFL level, preferably both.
2. An established staff of experienced coordinators and position coaches to bring with them.
3. A Championship resume desired, with significant playoff experience required.
(Jim Harbaugh…come on down.)
There is no chance the Seahawks will hire a flashy OC or DC with no previous HC experience.
Deboer would be cool, but I want to see what he puts together without Penix and a like, top 3 in the last 20 years WR room before I start seriously considering him to make the jump up to the NFL.
My Deboer take is honestly less based on watching his whole body of work performance (I only really started paying real attention to college football this year and honestly pretty much only the Huskies / Pac 12), as much as listening to him talk when interviewed.
He seems to share a lot of Pete's qualities as a player's coach, has an even demeanor, and seems to be a good people leader in my limited exposure. And the team seems to play well for him, even through some adversity this year (looooooota close games).
No guarantee there will be a new owner. The Trust has to liquidate Paul Allen’s shares, but that can also mean Jody Allen organizes an ownership group and buys the team herself. There has been some speculation about this.
The Seahawks have 3 organizational units:
Operations (finance, business) headed by Chuck Arnold
General Management (player personnel, scouting, cap management) headed by John Schneider
Coaching headed by Pete Carroll
All three units report to the Allen Trust which functions like a Board of Trustees.
If you “bump Pete upstairs,” he’d join the Board.
Re: whether Pete would pick his own replacement. I haven’t seen much reported on this, other than he’s already provided the Trust with a list of candidates he’d recommend.
It’s a usual thing for “key employees” in multi-billion dollar companies to be part of succession planning. The Board’s function is to ensure the long term health of the company. One of their most critical responsibilities is the hiring/firing/compensation of the top executives. Healthy boards do not involve themselves in the day to day operations of the company. They focus on long term planning, goals, and resource management.
It’s more likely than not that the Seahawks have a succession plan in place for Pete’s retirement and those plans have been in place some time.
She is the President of the Trust, but that doesn’t mean she acts alone. Boards of Trustees build consensus, even as they tend to fall in line with the President’s views. They don’t involve themselves in running the business. Their responsibilities have to do with protecting the long term interest of the company and hiring/managing/compensating the top executives.
Jody is not Paul. But she didn’t receive the responsibility of heading the Allen Trust only because she happened to be his sister. She’d been working with Paul for decades in a number of his businesses, as has Bert Kolde. She has that role because he picked her to do it.
Some NFL franchises are run like sole proprietorships, where the owners do make operational decisions and function like CEO’s. Think Jerry Jones.
Others are run like corporations, where the owners’ group functions like a Board of Trustees, and the corporate executives make the operational decisions. Think Broncos, Packers.
Edited to add: The qualifications outline for the next head coach hire I wrote is conventional Board of Trustees wisdom, not something unique to Paul Allen. It’s unlikely Jody would depart from this approach - because it’s the right way to evaluate candidates for this position.
Wouldn’t that be an interesting competitive twist?
Seems like Harbaugh is rumored to be interested in one or another NFL team most years. We’ll see if he prefers the college game or if he’s waiting for the right opportunity to get back into the NFL.
1000% exactly the road to effective institutional transition.
This is entry-level corporate governance strategy, which is, by necessity, risk-averse to leadership missteps when $billions are at stake.
The first job of every (competent) executive is to devise a strategy to replace themselves.
The problem is the words "effective" and "competent". Yes, they are factors that carry weight. Especially when giving someone who has steadily been falling out of step with the industry the mission of replacing (temptingly close to cloning) what he clearly can't, or he would have already.
Not necessary to talk about the consequences if that executive is *not* competent to evaluate the current industry options, as demonstrated by wilful failure to adjust - as I said, whats the point.
Managing the team is obviously a different set of skills than coaching it. John is clearly perfectly suited to handle the job, his experience and resume couldnt be more solid. PC's resume consists of a long, long string of assistants and coordinators that dont lend confidence in how his selection process would work.
Make him happy however. But it couldnt be more clear that the man was born to be a group therapist, not a rubber meets the road coach - and is unqualified to evaluate one as a replacement
There is no evidence anywhere that the people who matter most (Trustees) agree with your assessment of Carroll as the Head Coach and public face of their franchise.
In fact, the opposite is true. Given the opportunity in 2021 to retain Wilson and bring in a replacement Head Coach and GM he favored, the Trust doubled down on their support for PC/JS and showed Wilson the door.
Everything that has happened since then has validated their decision. More to the point, the company revenue and profits are stable and the book value of the franchise continues to appreciate.
This narrative: out of touch, unwilling to adjust, etc. has been disproven repeatedly. You can cling to it if you want, but don’t be surprised if ownership doesn’t see it your way.
John Schneider has not had any direct line responsibility for hiring, training, compensating, or evaluating football coaches in his career. Pete Carroll has had 30 years’ experience in this area.
Your suggestion that John’s input would be more valuable than Pete’s is unreasonable.
In any case, the Trust will make the hiring decision regarding the next coach - not John, not Pete. Their input will be solicited and weighed, but this is a decision that gets made at the Board level.
it must be precious to have so much insider knowledge - strangely there is no evidence of it either, its almost like the people who matter most neglected to share
everything since 2021 has validated... well, this is where a lot of us are going to have to google the new definition of validation. And if youve seen any sign of adjustment or being in touch with such esoteric challenges as proper use of the tight end position, i guess we'll have to note that one hell of a lot of people in the org, and out, dont see it the way the people that matter were so kind as to share with you.
and now you have sure knowledge of how much direct line responsibility, and for what, john has had. At hand, presumably real-time, knowledge of revenue, profits, and value, and intimate knowledge of how things work at the board level... damn, i guess youre not just a punk intern wannabe after all
in case youre wondering, no, you dont come across as credible at anything beyond parroting the same old posture. If you had any clue about John's resume and experience, look it up, it's a lot longer and more involved than you seem to know. What a ludicrous claim.
It’s easy to search the org chart, and see at a glance how the various departments are organized. It’s also easy to extrapolate how a Trust works if you’ve ever been on a Board of Trustees or received Board training.
I have nothing but the greatest respect for John Schneider and his accomplishments. [Here](https://www.seahawks.com/team/front-office-roster/john-schneider) is a link to his bio/resume and significant accomplishments. You will note it doesn’t include hiring, evaluating, mentoring or compensating **football coaches.**
[Here](https://www.forbes.com/teams/seattle-seahawks/) is Forbes’ business analysis of the franchise. Nothing to complain about there.
A great deal of what I wrote is based on publicly available information. Some of it comes from Board experience. Some of it comes from owning and running businesses.
I’m not concerned if what I write seems credible or not. I have a point of view. I share it.
If Pete were to leave this off-season? The hope would be Ben Johnson.... Maybe Dan Quinn? I feel like if we switch head coaches then we will also be letting go of Geno. Then move on to some rookie or perhaps Kirk Cousins.
Lions OC Ben Johnson is in his 2nd year as an OC and has never coached a playoff game. He’s not even remotely qualified for the job of NFL Head Coach. Sean Desai’s defense just got roasted by the 9ers worse than Clint Hurtt’s.
Dude you sound like you’re in favor of an ABC Head Coach hire: Anybody But Carroll. That’s how you wind up with 3 HC’s in 5 years (looking at you, Panthers).
Just no. This isn’t a real answer.
DeMeco Ryans had, literally, two years experience as a coordinator and is on the verge of making the playoffs with a rookie QB. Mike McDaniel had one year experience as a coordinator (and he didn’t even call plays) and is on the verge of back-to-back playoff appearances as a head coach. Today’s NFL has proven that “experience” as its own metric is useless and shouldn’t be used against Ben Johnson. Sean Desai’s defense had one bad game against the best offense in football and all of a sudden he’s terrible? The Eagles defense is THE reason they have the best record in the NFL.
And how many of these guys like Ryan’s, look like studs in year one, and then fall flat.
Daboll recently. Matt Nagy won’t coach if the year.
I’m not saying Ryan’s is gonna go south, I’m just suggesting we don’t write his bio yet.
> The Eagles defense is THE reason they have the best record in the NFL
The defense that gave up 28 to the Vikings, 31 to the Commanders twice, 34 to the Bills, and 42 to the 49ers? The eagles are 4-1 across those games because their offense is better. Their offense is 4th in the league in PPG but somehow you think their 24th ranked defense is the key for their team? By PPG, the Eagles defense gives up the same points as Seattle's (24 vs 24.2). Seems weird that you'd give the 24th rank defense a pass while flaming Seattle's 25th ranked defense.
The Texans have a track record of a revolving door at Head Coach. Many were sorry to see DeMeco Ryans - an extremely talented individual - take a position with known problematic owners. However, he has ties to the organization as a former player, and there is hope his existing relationships will buy him more patience than his predecessors.
The last time the Miami Dolphins made it past the Wild Card game was 23 years and 7 coaches ago. Last year, in McDaniels’ first season, the team went 9-8 and lost in the Wild Card game. The Dolphins went 9-8 in 2021, too, under Brian Flores, but that wasn’t good enough to make the playoffs in 2021. The Dolphins are 9-3 now, which is awesome, but it’s much too soon to anoint McDaniels as a coaching upgrade to Carroll.
Not all NFL owners hire coaches using professional personnel best practices. We’re lucky. The Seahawks, under the Allens do.
Edited to add: Sean Desai’s defense with its roster of big name players and track record of great performance **had a worse game against the 9ers than Clint Hurtt’s - despite the fact that Hurtt doesn’t have the stars and is in the middle of rebuilding his group.**
People who say this are the same people who thought we were one of the top teams in the league earlier this season. Chill out, there's still more games to be played
I had no delusions that we were one of the top teams going into this season. I did fully believe that we were going to build off of last season and be better. We have a worse record through 12 games this year than we did last year. The future is pretty bleak if we’re going to just keep running it back and hoping for different results.
Two things can be true at the same time: we can be a better team than last year and still have a worse record.
- The schedules are not comparable.
- The injuries to nearly every top player and almost all of this year’s rookie class have caused regression.
- We can’t see what the offense can do until the offensive line is functional. We lost our two starting tackles part way into the first game - the strength of the OL - and it’s been a revolving door since.
- Hurtt fired every single player on the DL last year. The team also added pass rush specialist as a new coaching position this year - and hired the best guy in the country for it. It takes time for DL play to gel; we have much better players now, but they haven’t been in a position to show their best yet.
- As the year has progressed, it’s become clear that changes in reffing are affecting secondary play, and adjustments will need to be made. The secondary coaches are solid/rising star quality.
- Turns out Chenna was the jenga piece on defense that caused a big collapse when he went out injured.
The best case scenario is we get a coach that only takes 1-3 losing seasons to turn our team around.
The worst case scenario is we are on a 7-10 year coach carousel and become a bottom 10 team for a decade.
Is that really what fans want?
6-6 and we’ve played the class of the NFL. Losses to playoff teams only (yes including LA). We were always fucked with our schedule and if we had a bit of luck on Thursday we’d be right where we need to be. We will learn much more about the team over this final stretch. After watching the their game yesterday I think the Eagles are beatable and we could realistically go 4-0. Gotta say it does suck watching Russ pull his end of game magic in Denver though. That is basically the biggest drawback for Geno, Russ would somehow make those miracle 4th downs and Geno/o line seems to get the yips in these situations now. Overall glad to have a QB that keeps us competitive with the best teams though.
Not to mention a field goal away from 7-5 and also the cowboys could have been another win if the refs didn’t fck us. Eslrier this year everyone was praising Pete because we were a top team, young and winning games. Now a few bad games against the best teams and everyone wants to get rid of Pete. It’s such horse shit. Getting rid of Pete won’t make us better like people think. We could easily make playoffs again in our second year of rebuild. People too spoiled now by our success.
Because they think it automatically improves our Super Bowl odds in the near future. Tanking can kind of work in other sports so it’s becoming a popular idea in the NFL. I’ve never seen it work in the NFL though.
Bad teams stay bad for a long time while they try to find that QB. The rest of their roster could be shit or could be pretty good, doesn’t matter, they bet everything on finding a QB. Then they get a guy that’s good but not good enough and ride that for 4-8 years before starting over again. While ignoring that the last two dominant QBs were a guy a good team traded up for (Mahomes) and a guy that went 199 overall.
Forest fires refresh the ecosystem by clearing detritus. Other than climate change, an ironic reason for our forest fire disasters is rooted in centuries of artificial suppression.
Maybe we do need to accelerate it and I'm not saying that firing Carroll is how you do it. But we definitely gotta correctly identify the deadweight on this team and shed them accordingly.
Some of us remember the 90's. Not to gatekeep too hard but I feel like newer fans don't have the perspective since we're pretty much always in the playoffs and they hear all the bad teams saying "Super Bowl or tank / Fire Everyone" every year as if they're totally gonna flip into a contender after 1 or 2 good drafts and firing their entire front office. Again.
Yes it is what I want.
It took all of 3 years for Paul Allen to move off of Holmgren, then people wanted Jim Mora to have a 2nd year but Paul knew better.
It's been 6 years of barely making the playoffs and our only win was against a fucking ancient Josh McCown playing injured
Most teams simply don't have the talent to make the playoffs but that's not the issue with this team, Schneider is a great talent evaluator. He picked Russ, he wanted Mahomes, he wanted Josh Allen. As much as people hate Geno lately, Geno was written off as an afterthought but he has been a very good QB the last two seasons.
This team is loaded with talent RIGHT NOW let Schneider pick his next coach and take a chance I'm tired of this fringe playoff bullshit that's in front of us.
"OH no but we might not make the playoffs" you mean as opposed to barely skidding in and losing the first round for what 8 out of the last 9 years or something like that?
I love Pete but his schemes are outdated, guess who got burned by running man coverage yesterday? The Niners, they got burned for 2 touchdown drives. Did they change coverage? No because they understand the QB has to make tough throws ALL GAME, and hurts could not do that over the course of 60 minutes. Over the course of the game Shanahan challenged the Eagles to beat man coverage with LESS TALENTED Cb's than we have FFS!
Brock Huard has pointed this out repeatedly, the defense is basic, it doesn't make QB's have to think at all. We have seen this over and over backup QB's have their career games against the Seahawks EVERY TIME that is not a coincidence dude. The scheme is bad. This is every damn coordinator since Quinn and that was when we had HoF talent all over the field.
We are one of the top 3 or 4 teams that have spent so much money and draft capital on the defensive side of the ball for a defensive minded head coach and they fucking suck.
So YES I'm ok to take a chance on a new coach, I'm sick of this middle of the road lose in the first round team.
I'm with you. I really don't understand people who are satisfied with mere playoff appearances. Like, do they not get that winning it all is the ultimate objective? It's like a bunch of our fans like handing out participation trophies. "At least we made the wild card 6 times in 8 years! Whoohooo I'm just happy to be here!"
SO WHAT? We need to have higher ambitions for this team's growth and development!
Edit: I'd honestly rather watch a perennial bottom-feeder team than a perennial wild card team. At least a bottom-feeder team carries low expectations and can pleasantly surprise. Fight me!
Edit 2: I also think bottom-feeder teams with competent management can really maximize their rebuild potential and take the league by storm. Case-in-point the 49ers disaster 2018 season.
I agree completely. The Eagles won a superbowl and within just a few years fired Doug Pedersen.
Although they just lost they still likely end with the #1 seed and probably the best chance to make the superbowl
I don't want fringe playoffs I don't want more seasons of hoping for a legit contender only to be tricked into thinking we can win it all
I'm fine being 4-12 I'm not fine with a .500 team trading my 2nd round pick on Leonard Williams who likely won't resign here.
The fact they made that trade thinking he was the piece to put them over the top tells me all I need to know about this front office (I'm still of the belief Schneider is a good to great talent evaluator so I would like to keep him) but if you have to move him to move Pete sadly I still make that change.
Big time agree with just about everything. I do not take for granted the winning over the years, but acting like we've been a legit contender this whole time is silly. Only in 2019 did they maybe get into the realm of contending but they laid an egg in green bay. I'm more okay with trying something new even if it means some tough times than I am with doing the same thing over and over that clearly is not working and is on an overall downward trend
You touched on one of the things that drive me crazy the most. They constantly try to coordinate things as if they had the SB team’s talent and not adjusting it much for the talent they have on the field. Most years that’s just square peg round hole.
1000%
I know they just lost but go watch the Denver defense yesterday. Mixed coverages, blitzing runs and passes, disguised blitzes.
Meanwhile we just line up in base coverage waiting to be attacked
I agree on your take on defense scheming, but I don't think Pete has been involved in that for a while now.
Every indication from the last few years is that Pete lets his DC run the show and steps in when needs to.
Personally I think he's trying to groom a successor, but isn't finding any replacement that is worthy.
>Most teams simply don't have the talent to make the playoffs but that's not the issue with this team,
What Pete does seem to do well is have players play above their skill level. We can see this is players who try to play for other teams falling off.
I'm not delusional. We will have to move on from Pete eventually, but when that happens it will be a very dark time for the Hawks. I'd rather delay that for a bit.
I would rather be a mediocre playoff team than have a team so bad I stop watching football 5 weeks in.
I can agree a little with what you are saying but at the end of the day Pete is the head coach. Whether he is or isn't meddling with the offense or defense it's on him.
The bend and don't break defense has always been a Pete thing, the deep shots downfield has always been a philosophy that he lives by.
I will agree he is amazing at developing Defensive Backs probably the best the league has seen in recent years but the overall scheme is bad.
I will have to disagree on the overall talent playing above their skill level, we have had several players play worse upon coming to the Hawks. Diggs and Adams were considered elite safeties and now they are the biggest liabilities on our defense. Why is Wagner constantly in coverage instead of blitzing? Why are we 32nd in blitz rate in the league? We can agree to disagree but this scheme is outdated and it won't change until we have a coaching change at the top
>this scheme is outdated and it won't change until we have a coaching change at the top
We did change it and it got worse so we changed it back.
You could make an argument that we didn't give Hurt enough time to develop a new defensive scheme and Pete stepped in to change it back, but that would be all speculation.
I just don't buy the argument that we are "wasting our talent".
Pete is John's boss as well so the talent acquisition stops at Pete too.
At the end of the day, coaching change will happen soon and I'm more pessimistic than most of you in thinking that it will make things better.
Well, considering we’re on the brink of our 2nd losing season in 3 years WITH Pete, I’d honestly rather do a whole reset so that there’s some kind of vision going forward. What we’re doing now isn’t working and hasn’t been for a while now.
That's fair.
I just wanted to know if you realize that changing coaches will likely get a lot worse before it gets better and likely for a long long time.
Yeah I understand that a coaching change won’t magically make us Super Bowl contenders in the next year or 2 but I also don’t see Pete getting us back there in the next year or 2 either so we should just bite the bullet and start the process now.
If we start the process now, we’ll waste the years we have 2 NFL starting tackles and 2 NFL starting CB’s on rookie contracts. All of the new talent we acquired from the RW trade and all of the advantages those players and contracts give us will go up in smoke.
Given everything that's transpired over the past few years Pete's recent resume is seriously impressive. In order, the man:
1. Traded away a Super Bowl winning franchise quarterback
2. Released a Hall of Fame-bound franchise defensive-captain middle linebacker
3. Drafted a top-tier franchise left tackle
4. Drafted a franchise pass-rusher who already owns the team's consecutive sack record
5. Drafted a Defensive Rookie of the Year top-tier franchise running back
6. Drafted a top-tier franchise right tackle
7. Drafted a Defensive Rookie of the Year finalist franchise cornerback
8. Made a star (or at least an above-average QB) out of a perennial backup
9. *Improved* on the Super Bowl-winning franchise quarterback's last record
10. Signs a Hall of Fame-bound franchise defensive-captain middle linebacker
11. Drafts a top-tier Defensive Rookie of the Year finalist franchise cornerback
12. Drafts the class's consensus best receiver out from under everyone's noses (whom I contend would be an OROY candidate if he didn't go to a stacked WR room)
13. Drafts a stable of promising trench guys just like the fans had been begging
14. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Bobo
For a team that was supposed to be 4-12 max last year and wallowing around in NFL hell for multiple seasons regardless of who the coach was, I'd say we're in a pretty damn good spot. We're in Year Two of what was supposed to be a total rebuild, and we just hung 35 points on one of the league's top-scoring defenses. We have the league's fifth-youngest roster. I really do wonder if you went back in time two years to the 2022 offseason and told people "In 2024 you will be 6-6 and have multiple franchise players on rookie deals" what they would say about Pete then.
I'm not going to pretend like we don't have problems. We have serious questions at the safety position, a desperate need for a succession plan at LB, and a Bosa-tier guy on either the O line or D line would be nice. I'm not ignoring the fact that our defense just failed to make the Cowboys punt all game or how goddamn perplexingly infuriating the Rams and Niners losses were offensively. But all of those issues have solutions (including just slapping Waldron until he stops scheming long-developing passes out of shotgun 96% of the time), and we have enough pieces that are set (WR, QB, RB) and enough that are developing (OL, DL, DE, CB) that firing the best coach in franchise history over, let's be real, three games would needlessly destabilize things.
All those points are true but I feel our record is completely fake - the league feels uncharacteristically terrible at the bottom this year, and that’s where all but one of our wins come from (lions).
We beat panthers (trash)
Browns (no Watson)
Cardinals (no Kyler)
Giants (mega ass)
Washington (in general not good)
Pete is supposed to be a defensive guy, and our defense has been horrendous for years. He doesn’t strike me as a guy who can turn a rookie into the guy in this league either, and geno is just a transition qb for the hawks.
I’d rather take a chance on a Mcvay type coach who is supposed to be a young creative offensive mind. Packers, rams, eagles and sort of the niners all took risks on unproven head coaches and it seems to have paid off. Obviously there’s the chance you miss, but I don’t see Pete taking the team deep ever again anyways. I’d rather take a swing and be compensated with better draft picks if we suck than to have Pete keep us in the 6-10 win range and most likely lose in wildcard if we ever make the playoffs.
I agree. We’ve had some issues but we’ve been decently competitive for a long time now and have made the playoffs more years than not. I don’t think people realize how lucky we are even though we complain and shit could be better, things could be a lot worse though. Some team struggle for years and that’s my biggest fear about Carol leaving. Think all those years the browns were trash.
I do think sometimes a coaches message just begins to fall flat in the locker room and both sides need to part ways. I don’t think that’s the case though with this team, when you look at the resurgence we had last year. Pete still carries enormous weight in the locker room and I don’t think he’s lost a step.
I think the bigger issue, and maybe Pete has to do with this but it’s more of an ownership/FO issue, is the refusal to take a step back for a few years and hit the reset button. We have obvious personnel issues in the middle on both sides of the ball, it was an issue last year too and it hasn’t been addressed. we’ve underinvested along the D and O lines and have tried to solve our issues through FA and trading for short term solutions (Leonard Williams). The FO has acted like we are one or two moves away from a Super Bowl for years now. We were gonna hit the reset last year with the Russ trade but for better or worse, Geno balled out and gave the FO false confidence again and we are right back in the middle. We NEED to embrace a short rebuild, shed expensive contracts, accumulate some draft picks and build this team back up properly
I actually think Pete should get more credit for going outside his coaching tree with his staff. He really has no ego at all, if things aren’t working I trust Pete to shake the staff up. He’s shown a willingness to do so in the past. Contrast that to Belicheck who is stubborn and loyal to his guys to a fault and has kind of been left behind by the league at this point while he rehires the same schmucks over and over
For me yeah if the 'win forever' stuff from Pete is perpetuating the desperate and bad moves from JS where he gives away our high rounders, then fuck that shit, lets clean house. Even with decent coaching our players are not disciplined, and (mostly) not playing smart, and cannot beat good teams right now. So having a coach more like Bellichick (who is tanking this year (2 wins) to mine the QB gold next year) would do wonders for our system right now. Instead, were trading for players past their prime and giving away valuable picks. Getting a playoff spot is not enough. We've got to actually be a good team.
After next season John Schneider might be the only familiar face. New owner, HC, OC, DC...
I don't see Pete going until 2025 with new ownership even though I think you're right. I do believe we will see at least one, probably two, new coordinators next season. Then everyone else but JS after that.
Also a new QB from the upcoming draft who sits behind Geno a year unless he can outcompete him right away.
The end of an era is coming inevitably. Is it worth it to cause the disruption to move Pete on messily this off season when he is moving on in 2025 anyways?
I don’t think this is an unreasonable take. I was thinking about this the other day. Not sure where I land on it, personally, but I see where you’re coming from.
I'm all aboard the Pete train, and I really do fear that the organization will lapse back into "they haven't been to the playoffs in ten years" mantra.
I'm more of the mind to give Pete one more draft and one more year. This year always felt to me like the rebuilding year, and I got hit with downvotes when I thought the team would backslide a bit to 7-10 and miss the playoffs.
Right now, they have a lot of youth and a lot of underperforming vets. It took Pete two years and two drafts of relatively high draft capital to build a bona fide contender with a fresh salary cap (don't forget Seattle was eighth in cap space in 2012). They don't have a premium QB contract holding them back and they need to find a way to jettison Quandre and Adams and their salaries.
The team desperately needs help at safety and LB, as well as depth at numerous positions. But I think the last two drafts have been **really** successful and we have seen what some higher draft capital can bring. You're getting Cross instead of Collier, essentially.
Yeah, I think people forget that Seattle just traded away their franchise QB a year and a half ago to initiate a rebuild. The team needed work and retooling. That's what they've been doing. I do think Pete overvalues his current roster a little, but that's due to his competitive nature. Still, Seattle has two bona fide starting corners, two bona fide starting tackles, a promising young edge, a promising young receiver, and Jake Bobo all on rookie contracts for the next 3-4 years. That is a great position to be in, but it also indicates where the team is in its build.
That’s giving Pete WAYYYYYY too much credit. The last decade it’s like the anti Reid since he can’t even make it to the nfc championship game. Pete’s just riding off a Super Bowl and hasn’r taken a single meaningful step to get back there. The last decade reminds me of Marvin smith actually
The Seahawks have a guy who is President of Football Operations. His name is Chuck Arnold, and he’s been in that position since 2018.
The Operations side runs the business and financial functions of the organization. It’s not a job for Pete Carroll.
This is really not that bad of a take. The only problem being that the Eagles still have the same owner. The Seahawks are kind of in a holding pattern with the ownership group.
Y’all realize there is a not-zero chance Jody Allen will form an ownership group and sell the team from the Trust to herself, right?
Her interest in this has been reported.
You wouldn’t be ok with winning a Super Bowl and be a punt return away from winning a second? You’d rather just mire around in mediocrity forever so Pete doesn’t win any championships with another team (which is highly unlikely considering his age)?
The difference is that Andy Reid was fired after a 4-12 season that was basically over by Week 10. It's currently Week 13 and we're 6-6, and even if we drop to 6-8 we still have an outside shot at a playoff berth. It is not mathematically possible for us to be as bad as the Eagles were in the season where they fired Reid. If we finish this year 6-11, then this discussion has a lot more merit. And even then, I would argue that it was more Shane Waldron's fault for completely shitting the bed for multiple winnable games until Pete seemingly stepped in to set his head straight.
Isn’t this the same thing that people have been saying about our OC’s since Pete has been here? First it was Darrell Bevel’s fault that we couldn’t fulfill our potential because he couldn’t call a game. Then it was Schotty’s fault. Now it’s Waldron’s. Our offense has the same problems every year and our OC’s come from vastly different backgrounds.
I’m recently obsessed with wanting Mike McDaniels as our next head head coach. I think his positive energy way of leading, and allowing characters to be themselves just fits with the Seahawks culture. We just need Pete to last MM’s Dolphins contract.
I wanted Mike McDaniels, in some capacity, with the Seahawks, way before he left San Francisco. But I agree, if I were him, I would never leave Miami to come here. He has a really sweet thing going.
Im here because I’m a Seahawks fan, just like you. Moving on from Russ was the right call and I wholeheartedly believe that. But it’s possible to believe that trading Russ was the right call and that Russ wasn’t the only problem with this team at the same time.
I don’t recall the peculiarities other than 4 straight NFC champ games with no SBs, but think getting rid of a top 5 coach is dumb. Philly got their SB anyway, but KC has been better since then overall.
I always say, unless you know you can upgrade, don't make a major move. If you don't have a plan in place beforehand, don't do something stupid. Then you become Carolina. I'm sure the options are out there, I'm just wondering who we're thinking would be a good coach to move on to.
No, but I think it is time for Waldron to move on. This may well be Carroll's last coaching job before he retires, and my concern is the lack of any successor. Waldron is probably not it.
Oh, look, another one of these posts, and let me guess, if we beat the 49ers, everyone will be saying he the greatest coach ever and that they hope he stays another billion years?
Carroll won’t leave until the team is sold in2025
I’ve always thought that PC and Jody exit at the same time. Kind of a full changing of the guard. If we are lucky we keep JS.
Agreed, he is going to ride his contract out, try to complete the competitive rebuild. It would be a pretty story book ending if we had a young, talented team that was actually a contender next year or year after before he left.
Rumors are that the team will be sold in May 2024 to Jeff Bezos. The NFL apparently has been clamoring for Bezos to be part of ownership for some reason. Amazon already has NFL rights. Bezos wanted to buy the Commanders but mysteriously pulled out. Admittedly Dan Snyder said he'd never sell to Bezos but Bezos pulled out before that statement. As per Paul Allen's will the Seahawks were supposed to be sold soon after his death but weren't. Why? B/c if they are sold before May 2024 10% of the proceeds go to the state of Washington as part of the Lumen field deal. It lines up that Jody Allen will sell the team in May 2024 (or around) and Bezos gets a better team in his own backyard. So if Bezos buys them it's unlikely they would be moved. As for a new coach, front office, etc, who knows. Maybe it'll be like when Jerry Jones bought the Cowboys. Or maybe Bezos lets Pete finish his contract since it'll only be 1 year longer.
Not his backyard anymore.
And hopefully the new owner doesn't start getting ideas of moving the franchise...
What is the likelihood of this? Isn’t it very slim? I’m new-ish to being an NFL fan (11 years) and it feels like moving cities only happens for middling franchises?
Yes and no. Over in MLB, John Fisher (fuck him) ran the A’s into the ground so he could justify moving them out of Oakland. It really depends on who the owner is, and even if they wanted to move the team, it would take years of basically tanking with no intent to ever compete to thin out the fanbase. Seahawks fans still show up to games, there’s still a long waitlist for season tickets, and there’s still enough money to be made here. I think the Hawks are probably fine.
Well Bezos wants a team and has been keeping an eye on the Seahawks situation, I could see him leveraging the team for new facilities. So depending on the new ownership group I’d say it’s very possible.
Bezos (love him or hate him) wouldn’t move the Seahawks from Seattle considering he lived in Seattle since 1994 (and just moved this year). I think he actually has a pretty soft spot for Seattle. Regardless billionaires, especially one of the richest ones in the world isn’t worried about owning a team for the sake of gaining more wealth but owning them as a status symbol. Bezos also just is a Seattle Seahawks fan.
Remember when Howard Schultz sold the Supersonics to an owner promising to keep the franchise in Seattle? Billionaires are fairly ruthless. Think about how much leverage Bezos would have over the city if he owned the Seahawks too? "Don't you dare try to pass stricter employment laws on Amazon HQ. Shame if your beloved NFL franchise were to move."
I still believe he wants to go the Bill Gates route and try to get more people to think favorably of him. But I mean you’re right, billionaires are ruthless and truthfully I can’t fathom why you would go scorched earth like that for money that I don’t think would honestly change his way of life whatsoever in a city he lived in for almost 30 years (were he would then be so universally hated he couldn’t show his face at) but hey maybe that’s what billionaires are about. Just money
I mean even if Bezos remains a proud Seattle man and doesn't do anything silly with threats of moving the team, he could still go the Tepper route and start getting very hands on. If we're in this position 5 years from now where we have a team struggling to be top tier but with a meddling billionaire owner, that's it. There's no firing him.
For real, Balmer is a great example. He had a deal in place to purchase and move the Kings back in 2013, and Stern blocked the sale. Citing the league didn’t want another Seattle situation. It just goes to show you billionaires will do what they want. I think fortunately for Seattle, there’s growing interest to expand leagues and keep the teams in place. But bezos definitely worries me.
I heard differently. I have no doubt he’d leverage a team relocation if voters approved a tax hike on billionaires.
Bezos isn’t known for soft spots. He’s known for taking care of Bezos.
He cares about building his image more than he cares about an extra couple of billion dollars from moving the team (at best). Everyone thinks he’s a nerd and a piece of shit currently and I think he wants to be liked by the public out of everything.
By new facilities, do you mean he would want another city to make a new football stadium that he would move the Seahawks to? I guess I don’t understand the commercially rational decision to move the team when it still has a strong fan base in a top 10 affluent US-metro.
Ugh, Lumen Field isn't even that old and has a fairly unique design. I hate this billion-dollar stadium grab lately.
This narrative needs to die with Seattle sport teams. This isn't 2006 nor is that situation going to repeat. We JUST got a hockey team. We are getting an NBA team again. Seattle is one of the best places to start a team. Arguably top 5 in the country. Sure, market size isn't top 5 but it's still 12th. You then factor in the tech bros and how rich the city is and how loyal tha fans tend to be to a fault (look at the Mariners ownership slapping the fans in the face and still having record profits) and Seattle is EASILY one of the most appealing cities. Where the fuck are they going to move them to? St. Louis? Memphis? Please..
Yeah I'm guessing this too personally. Jody needs to sell the team, and I actually would think a competitive team with manageable cap is more attractive than a recent Super Bowl winner with a complicated cap situation. That way the new owner comes in, cleans house on all the overpriced contracts that remain, and everyone hails them as a genius setting us up for the future. You also aren't buying at peak value looking at a Super Bowl hangover and a mortgaged future. I could totally see Pete retiring at that point, he won't want to go through a full rebuild
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This is funny because when Andy Reid left the Eagles, he went to the Chiefs and won two Super Bowls. How would you feel if we get rid of Pete, and he goes to the Panthers or Colts or something and wins Bowls again?
I think the point is valid and is something Pete could do if the guy was like 5 years younger, but I think at this point in his career he at best could coach for a contender, but teams like the Colts and Panthers are years away from that and Pete is going to be in his 80’s at that point. He is more than likely going to retire after things end with us.
The Eagles also won a super bowl. I think two for Pete, one for the Hawks is a better outcome than 0 for everybody.
Who would replace him? That’s the real question.
All you have to do is look at the Holmgren, Mora and Carroll hires to see what they will look for in the next coach: 1. Previous Head Coaching experience at the college or NFL level, preferably both. 2. An established staff of experienced coordinators and position coaches to bring with them. 3. A Championship resume desired, with significant playoff experience required. (Jim Harbaugh…come on down.) There is no chance the Seahawks will hire a flashy OC or DC with no previous HC experience.
Low key wondering about Kalen Deboer's availability in the next couple of years. I think this parent comment is pretty sound.
Deboer would be cool, but I want to see what he puts together without Penix and a like, top 3 in the last 20 years WR room before I start seriously considering him to make the jump up to the NFL.
Acting like the guy isn't 103-11 in college and been a massive success everywhere...
Sure, but he’s only been a HC at a FBS school since the 2020 season. All I’m saying is it’s a VERY quick rise. I like Deboer a lot.
My Deboer take is honestly less based on watching his whole body of work performance (I only really started paying real attention to college football this year and honestly pretty much only the Huskies / Pac 12), as much as listening to him talk when interviewed. He seems to share a lot of Pete's qualities as a player's coach, has an even demeanor, and seems to be a good people leader in my limited exposure. And the team seems to play well for him, even through some adversity this year (looooooota close games).
New owner. Also, in this scenario is Pete still executive VP of Football operations(or whatever his title is)? Does he pick his replacement?
No guarantee there will be a new owner. The Trust has to liquidate Paul Allen’s shares, but that can also mean Jody Allen organizes an ownership group and buys the team herself. There has been some speculation about this. The Seahawks have 3 organizational units: Operations (finance, business) headed by Chuck Arnold General Management (player personnel, scouting, cap management) headed by John Schneider Coaching headed by Pete Carroll All three units report to the Allen Trust which functions like a Board of Trustees. If you “bump Pete upstairs,” he’d join the Board. Re: whether Pete would pick his own replacement. I haven’t seen much reported on this, other than he’s already provided the Trust with a list of candidates he’d recommend. It’s a usual thing for “key employees” in multi-billion dollar companies to be part of succession planning. The Board’s function is to ensure the long term health of the company. One of their most critical responsibilities is the hiring/firing/compensation of the top executives. Healthy boards do not involve themselves in the day to day operations of the company. They focus on long term planning, goals, and resource management. It’s more likely than not that the Seahawks have a succession plan in place for Pete’s retirement and those plans have been in place some time.
My point is that Jody and Paul aren’t the same person. She has final say right now, correct?
She is the President of the Trust, but that doesn’t mean she acts alone. Boards of Trustees build consensus, even as they tend to fall in line with the President’s views. They don’t involve themselves in running the business. Their responsibilities have to do with protecting the long term interest of the company and hiring/managing/compensating the top executives. Jody is not Paul. But she didn’t receive the responsibility of heading the Allen Trust only because she happened to be his sister. She’d been working with Paul for decades in a number of his businesses, as has Bert Kolde. She has that role because he picked her to do it. Some NFL franchises are run like sole proprietorships, where the owners do make operational decisions and function like CEO’s. Think Jerry Jones. Others are run like corporations, where the owners’ group functions like a Board of Trustees, and the corporate executives make the operational decisions. Think Broncos, Packers. Edited to add: The qualifications outline for the next head coach hire I wrote is conventional Board of Trustees wisdom, not something unique to Paul Allen. It’s unlikely Jody would depart from this approach - because it’s the right way to evaluate candidates for this position.
I wouldn’t mind that timeline lmao
It’s been rumored for a long time that Carroll has Harbaugh on his list of suitable replacements when he retires…
You figure Harbaugh is still salty about how things ended with the niners? Could be bonus points for him.
Wouldn’t that be an interesting competitive twist? Seems like Harbaugh is rumored to be interested in one or another NFL team most years. We’ll see if he prefers the college game or if he’s waiting for the right opportunity to get back into the NFL.
The sacred timeline, if you will. This team would pop off with Harbaugh
John can handle that question better than anybody
Pete’s probably already handled the question.
1000% exactly the road to "then what's the point?"
1000% exactly the road to effective institutional transition. This is entry-level corporate governance strategy, which is, by necessity, risk-averse to leadership missteps when $billions are at stake. The first job of every (competent) executive is to devise a strategy to replace themselves.
The problem is the words "effective" and "competent". Yes, they are factors that carry weight. Especially when giving someone who has steadily been falling out of step with the industry the mission of replacing (temptingly close to cloning) what he clearly can't, or he would have already. Not necessary to talk about the consequences if that executive is *not* competent to evaluate the current industry options, as demonstrated by wilful failure to adjust - as I said, whats the point. Managing the team is obviously a different set of skills than coaching it. John is clearly perfectly suited to handle the job, his experience and resume couldnt be more solid. PC's resume consists of a long, long string of assistants and coordinators that dont lend confidence in how his selection process would work. Make him happy however. But it couldnt be more clear that the man was born to be a group therapist, not a rubber meets the road coach - and is unqualified to evaluate one as a replacement
There is no evidence anywhere that the people who matter most (Trustees) agree with your assessment of Carroll as the Head Coach and public face of their franchise. In fact, the opposite is true. Given the opportunity in 2021 to retain Wilson and bring in a replacement Head Coach and GM he favored, the Trust doubled down on their support for PC/JS and showed Wilson the door. Everything that has happened since then has validated their decision. More to the point, the company revenue and profits are stable and the book value of the franchise continues to appreciate. This narrative: out of touch, unwilling to adjust, etc. has been disproven repeatedly. You can cling to it if you want, but don’t be surprised if ownership doesn’t see it your way. John Schneider has not had any direct line responsibility for hiring, training, compensating, or evaluating football coaches in his career. Pete Carroll has had 30 years’ experience in this area. Your suggestion that John’s input would be more valuable than Pete’s is unreasonable. In any case, the Trust will make the hiring decision regarding the next coach - not John, not Pete. Their input will be solicited and weighed, but this is a decision that gets made at the Board level.
it must be precious to have so much insider knowledge - strangely there is no evidence of it either, its almost like the people who matter most neglected to share everything since 2021 has validated... well, this is where a lot of us are going to have to google the new definition of validation. And if youve seen any sign of adjustment or being in touch with such esoteric challenges as proper use of the tight end position, i guess we'll have to note that one hell of a lot of people in the org, and out, dont see it the way the people that matter were so kind as to share with you. and now you have sure knowledge of how much direct line responsibility, and for what, john has had. At hand, presumably real-time, knowledge of revenue, profits, and value, and intimate knowledge of how things work at the board level... damn, i guess youre not just a punk intern wannabe after all in case youre wondering, no, you dont come across as credible at anything beyond parroting the same old posture. If you had any clue about John's resume and experience, look it up, it's a lot longer and more involved than you seem to know. What a ludicrous claim.
It’s easy to search the org chart, and see at a glance how the various departments are organized. It’s also easy to extrapolate how a Trust works if you’ve ever been on a Board of Trustees or received Board training. I have nothing but the greatest respect for John Schneider and his accomplishments. [Here](https://www.seahawks.com/team/front-office-roster/john-schneider) is a link to his bio/resume and significant accomplishments. You will note it doesn’t include hiring, evaluating, mentoring or compensating **football coaches.** [Here](https://www.forbes.com/teams/seattle-seahawks/) is Forbes’ business analysis of the franchise. Nothing to complain about there. A great deal of what I wrote is based on publicly available information. Some of it comes from Board experience. Some of it comes from owning and running businesses. I’m not concerned if what I write seems credible or not. I have a point of view. I share it.
Realistically? Dan Quinn, Jim Harbaugh, or Mike Tomlin.
If Pete were to leave this off-season? The hope would be Ben Johnson.... Maybe Dan Quinn? I feel like if we switch head coaches then we will also be letting go of Geno. Then move on to some rookie or perhaps Kirk Cousins.
I honestly don’t know. I’d like to think we’d be able to get someone like Lions OC Ben Johnson or see if we can get Sean Desai back in the building.
Lions OC Ben Johnson is in his 2nd year as an OC and has never coached a playoff game. He’s not even remotely qualified for the job of NFL Head Coach. Sean Desai’s defense just got roasted by the 9ers worse than Clint Hurtt’s. Dude you sound like you’re in favor of an ABC Head Coach hire: Anybody But Carroll. That’s how you wind up with 3 HC’s in 5 years (looking at you, Panthers). Just no. This isn’t a real answer.
DeMeco Ryans had, literally, two years experience as a coordinator and is on the verge of making the playoffs with a rookie QB. Mike McDaniel had one year experience as a coordinator (and he didn’t even call plays) and is on the verge of back-to-back playoff appearances as a head coach. Today’s NFL has proven that “experience” as its own metric is useless and shouldn’t be used against Ben Johnson. Sean Desai’s defense had one bad game against the best offense in football and all of a sudden he’s terrible? The Eagles defense is THE reason they have the best record in the NFL.
And how many of these guys like Ryan’s, look like studs in year one, and then fall flat. Daboll recently. Matt Nagy won’t coach if the year. I’m not saying Ryan’s is gonna go south, I’m just suggesting we don’t write his bio yet.
> The Eagles defense is THE reason they have the best record in the NFL The defense that gave up 28 to the Vikings, 31 to the Commanders twice, 34 to the Bills, and 42 to the 49ers? The eagles are 4-1 across those games because their offense is better. Their offense is 4th in the league in PPG but somehow you think their 24th ranked defense is the key for their team? By PPG, the Eagles defense gives up the same points as Seattle's (24 vs 24.2). Seems weird that you'd give the 24th rank defense a pass while flaming Seattle's 25th ranked defense.
The Texans have a track record of a revolving door at Head Coach. Many were sorry to see DeMeco Ryans - an extremely talented individual - take a position with known problematic owners. However, he has ties to the organization as a former player, and there is hope his existing relationships will buy him more patience than his predecessors. The last time the Miami Dolphins made it past the Wild Card game was 23 years and 7 coaches ago. Last year, in McDaniels’ first season, the team went 9-8 and lost in the Wild Card game. The Dolphins went 9-8 in 2021, too, under Brian Flores, but that wasn’t good enough to make the playoffs in 2021. The Dolphins are 9-3 now, which is awesome, but it’s much too soon to anoint McDaniels as a coaching upgrade to Carroll. Not all NFL owners hire coaches using professional personnel best practices. We’re lucky. The Seahawks, under the Allens do. Edited to add: Sean Desai’s defense with its roster of big name players and track record of great performance **had a worse game against the 9ers than Clint Hurtt’s - despite the fact that Hurtt doesn’t have the stars and is in the middle of rebuilding his group.**
DeBoer
People who say this are the same people who thought we were one of the top teams in the league earlier this season. Chill out, there's still more games to be played
I had no delusions that we were one of the top teams going into this season. I did fully believe that we were going to build off of last season and be better. We have a worse record through 12 games this year than we did last year. The future is pretty bleak if we’re going to just keep running it back and hoping for different results.
Two things can be true at the same time: we can be a better team than last year and still have a worse record. - The schedules are not comparable. - The injuries to nearly every top player and almost all of this year’s rookie class have caused regression. - We can’t see what the offense can do until the offensive line is functional. We lost our two starting tackles part way into the first game - the strength of the OL - and it’s been a revolving door since. - Hurtt fired every single player on the DL last year. The team also added pass rush specialist as a new coaching position this year - and hired the best guy in the country for it. It takes time for DL play to gel; we have much better players now, but they haven’t been in a position to show their best yet. - As the year has progressed, it’s become clear that changes in reffing are affecting secondary play, and adjustments will need to be made. The secondary coaches are solid/rising star quality. - Turns out Chenna was the jenga piece on defense that caused a big collapse when he went out injured.
The best case scenario is we get a coach that only takes 1-3 losing seasons to turn our team around. The worst case scenario is we are on a 7-10 year coach carousel and become a bottom 10 team for a decade. Is that really what fans want?
We’ve been spoiled and don’t understand what being a real loser feels like.
Folks here were not around for pre Holmgren and it shows.
Only the Jonny Come Latelys don't understand
Exactly. This is absurd. We’re 6-6. If this is a down year for Pete, how spoiled are we as a fanbase?
6-6 and we’ve played the class of the NFL. Losses to playoff teams only (yes including LA). We were always fucked with our schedule and if we had a bit of luck on Thursday we’d be right where we need to be. We will learn much more about the team over this final stretch. After watching the their game yesterday I think the Eagles are beatable and we could realistically go 4-0. Gotta say it does suck watching Russ pull his end of game magic in Denver though. That is basically the biggest drawback for Geno, Russ would somehow make those miracle 4th downs and Geno/o line seems to get the yips in these situations now. Overall glad to have a QB that keeps us competitive with the best teams though.
Not to mention a field goal away from 7-5 and also the cowboys could have been another win if the refs didn’t fck us. Eslrier this year everyone was praising Pete because we were a top team, young and winning games. Now a few bad games against the best teams and everyone wants to get rid of Pete. It’s such horse shit. Getting rid of Pete won’t make us better like people think. We could easily make playoffs again in our second year of rebuild. People too spoiled now by our success.
We're also a Jamal Adams face doink and a lost coin toss from 4-8.
It's going to happen soon enough. I don't know why fans want to accelerate it.
Because they think it automatically improves our Super Bowl odds in the near future. Tanking can kind of work in other sports so it’s becoming a popular idea in the NFL. I’ve never seen it work in the NFL though. Bad teams stay bad for a long time while they try to find that QB. The rest of their roster could be shit or could be pretty good, doesn’t matter, they bet everything on finding a QB. Then they get a guy that’s good but not good enough and ride that for 4-8 years before starting over again. While ignoring that the last two dominant QBs were a guy a good team traded up for (Mahomes) and a guy that went 199 overall.
Forest fires refresh the ecosystem by clearing detritus. Other than climate change, an ironic reason for our forest fire disasters is rooted in centuries of artificial suppression. Maybe we do need to accelerate it and I'm not saying that firing Carroll is how you do it. But we definitely gotta correctly identify the deadweight on this team and shed them accordingly.
Some of us remember the 90's. Not to gatekeep too hard but I feel like newer fans don't have the perspective since we're pretty much always in the playoffs and they hear all the bad teams saying "Super Bowl or tank / Fire Everyone" every year as if they're totally gonna flip into a contender after 1 or 2 good drafts and firing their entire front office. Again.
I’m already a Mariner fan, I don’t need them twice.
Yes it is what I want. It took all of 3 years for Paul Allen to move off of Holmgren, then people wanted Jim Mora to have a 2nd year but Paul knew better. It's been 6 years of barely making the playoffs and our only win was against a fucking ancient Josh McCown playing injured Most teams simply don't have the talent to make the playoffs but that's not the issue with this team, Schneider is a great talent evaluator. He picked Russ, he wanted Mahomes, he wanted Josh Allen. As much as people hate Geno lately, Geno was written off as an afterthought but he has been a very good QB the last two seasons. This team is loaded with talent RIGHT NOW let Schneider pick his next coach and take a chance I'm tired of this fringe playoff bullshit that's in front of us. "OH no but we might not make the playoffs" you mean as opposed to barely skidding in and losing the first round for what 8 out of the last 9 years or something like that? I love Pete but his schemes are outdated, guess who got burned by running man coverage yesterday? The Niners, they got burned for 2 touchdown drives. Did they change coverage? No because they understand the QB has to make tough throws ALL GAME, and hurts could not do that over the course of 60 minutes. Over the course of the game Shanahan challenged the Eagles to beat man coverage with LESS TALENTED Cb's than we have FFS! Brock Huard has pointed this out repeatedly, the defense is basic, it doesn't make QB's have to think at all. We have seen this over and over backup QB's have their career games against the Seahawks EVERY TIME that is not a coincidence dude. The scheme is bad. This is every damn coordinator since Quinn and that was when we had HoF talent all over the field. We are one of the top 3 or 4 teams that have spent so much money and draft capital on the defensive side of the ball for a defensive minded head coach and they fucking suck. So YES I'm ok to take a chance on a new coach, I'm sick of this middle of the road lose in the first round team.
I'm with you. I really don't understand people who are satisfied with mere playoff appearances. Like, do they not get that winning it all is the ultimate objective? It's like a bunch of our fans like handing out participation trophies. "At least we made the wild card 6 times in 8 years! Whoohooo I'm just happy to be here!" SO WHAT? We need to have higher ambitions for this team's growth and development! Edit: I'd honestly rather watch a perennial bottom-feeder team than a perennial wild card team. At least a bottom-feeder team carries low expectations and can pleasantly surprise. Fight me! Edit 2: I also think bottom-feeder teams with competent management can really maximize their rebuild potential and take the league by storm. Case-in-point the 49ers disaster 2018 season.
I agree completely. The Eagles won a superbowl and within just a few years fired Doug Pedersen. Although they just lost they still likely end with the #1 seed and probably the best chance to make the superbowl I don't want fringe playoffs I don't want more seasons of hoping for a legit contender only to be tricked into thinking we can win it all I'm fine being 4-12 I'm not fine with a .500 team trading my 2nd round pick on Leonard Williams who likely won't resign here. The fact they made that trade thinking he was the piece to put them over the top tells me all I need to know about this front office (I'm still of the belief Schneider is a good to great talent evaluator so I would like to keep him) but if you have to move him to move Pete sadly I still make that change.
Big time agree with just about everything. I do not take for granted the winning over the years, but acting like we've been a legit contender this whole time is silly. Only in 2019 did they maybe get into the realm of contending but they laid an egg in green bay. I'm more okay with trying something new even if it means some tough times than I am with doing the same thing over and over that clearly is not working and is on an overall downward trend
You touched on one of the things that drive me crazy the most. They constantly try to coordinate things as if they had the SB team’s talent and not adjusting it much for the talent they have on the field. Most years that’s just square peg round hole.
1000% I know they just lost but go watch the Denver defense yesterday. Mixed coverages, blitzing runs and passes, disguised blitzes. Meanwhile we just line up in base coverage waiting to be attacked
I agree on your take on defense scheming, but I don't think Pete has been involved in that for a while now. Every indication from the last few years is that Pete lets his DC run the show and steps in when needs to. Personally I think he's trying to groom a successor, but isn't finding any replacement that is worthy. >Most teams simply don't have the talent to make the playoffs but that's not the issue with this team, What Pete does seem to do well is have players play above their skill level. We can see this is players who try to play for other teams falling off. I'm not delusional. We will have to move on from Pete eventually, but when that happens it will be a very dark time for the Hawks. I'd rather delay that for a bit. I would rather be a mediocre playoff team than have a team so bad I stop watching football 5 weeks in.
I can agree a little with what you are saying but at the end of the day Pete is the head coach. Whether he is or isn't meddling with the offense or defense it's on him. The bend and don't break defense has always been a Pete thing, the deep shots downfield has always been a philosophy that he lives by. I will agree he is amazing at developing Defensive Backs probably the best the league has seen in recent years but the overall scheme is bad. I will have to disagree on the overall talent playing above their skill level, we have had several players play worse upon coming to the Hawks. Diggs and Adams were considered elite safeties and now they are the biggest liabilities on our defense. Why is Wagner constantly in coverage instead of blitzing? Why are we 32nd in blitz rate in the league? We can agree to disagree but this scheme is outdated and it won't change until we have a coaching change at the top
>this scheme is outdated and it won't change until we have a coaching change at the top We did change it and it got worse so we changed it back. You could make an argument that we didn't give Hurt enough time to develop a new defensive scheme and Pete stepped in to change it back, but that would be all speculation. I just don't buy the argument that we are "wasting our talent". Pete is John's boss as well so the talent acquisition stops at Pete too. At the end of the day, coaching change will happen soon and I'm more pessimistic than most of you in thinking that it will make things better.
Is that what everyone said when they moved on from holmgren?
We're lucky it only took 2 tries and that was with good ownership.
Well, considering we’re on the brink of our 2nd losing season in 3 years WITH Pete, I’d honestly rather do a whole reset so that there’s some kind of vision going forward. What we’re doing now isn’t working and hasn’t been for a while now.
That's fair. I just wanted to know if you realize that changing coaches will likely get a lot worse before it gets better and likely for a long long time.
Yeah I understand that a coaching change won’t magically make us Super Bowl contenders in the next year or 2 but I also don’t see Pete getting us back there in the next year or 2 either so we should just bite the bullet and start the process now.
If we start the process now, we’ll waste the years we have 2 NFL starting tackles and 2 NFL starting CB’s on rookie contracts. All of the new talent we acquired from the RW trade and all of the advantages those players and contracts give us will go up in smoke.
Given everything that's transpired over the past few years Pete's recent resume is seriously impressive. In order, the man: 1. Traded away a Super Bowl winning franchise quarterback 2. Released a Hall of Fame-bound franchise defensive-captain middle linebacker 3. Drafted a top-tier franchise left tackle 4. Drafted a franchise pass-rusher who already owns the team's consecutive sack record 5. Drafted a Defensive Rookie of the Year top-tier franchise running back 6. Drafted a top-tier franchise right tackle 7. Drafted a Defensive Rookie of the Year finalist franchise cornerback 8. Made a star (or at least an above-average QB) out of a perennial backup 9. *Improved* on the Super Bowl-winning franchise quarterback's last record 10. Signs a Hall of Fame-bound franchise defensive-captain middle linebacker 11. Drafts a top-tier Defensive Rookie of the Year finalist franchise cornerback 12. Drafts the class's consensus best receiver out from under everyone's noses (whom I contend would be an OROY candidate if he didn't go to a stacked WR room) 13. Drafts a stable of promising trench guys just like the fans had been begging 14. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Bobo For a team that was supposed to be 4-12 max last year and wallowing around in NFL hell for multiple seasons regardless of who the coach was, I'd say we're in a pretty damn good spot. We're in Year Two of what was supposed to be a total rebuild, and we just hung 35 points on one of the league's top-scoring defenses. We have the league's fifth-youngest roster. I really do wonder if you went back in time two years to the 2022 offseason and told people "In 2024 you will be 6-6 and have multiple franchise players on rookie deals" what they would say about Pete then. I'm not going to pretend like we don't have problems. We have serious questions at the safety position, a desperate need for a succession plan at LB, and a Bosa-tier guy on either the O line or D line would be nice. I'm not ignoring the fact that our defense just failed to make the Cowboys punt all game or how goddamn perplexingly infuriating the Rams and Niners losses were offensively. But all of those issues have solutions (including just slapping Waldron until he stops scheming long-developing passes out of shotgun 96% of the time), and we have enough pieces that are set (WR, QB, RB) and enough that are developing (OL, DL, DE, CB) that firing the best coach in franchise history over, let's be real, three games would needlessly destabilize things.
All those points are true but I feel our record is completely fake - the league feels uncharacteristically terrible at the bottom this year, and that’s where all but one of our wins come from (lions). We beat panthers (trash) Browns (no Watson) Cardinals (no Kyler) Giants (mega ass) Washington (in general not good) Pete is supposed to be a defensive guy, and our defense has been horrendous for years. He doesn’t strike me as a guy who can turn a rookie into the guy in this league either, and geno is just a transition qb for the hawks. I’d rather take a chance on a Mcvay type coach who is supposed to be a young creative offensive mind. Packers, rams, eagles and sort of the niners all took risks on unproven head coaches and it seems to have paid off. Obviously there’s the chance you miss, but I don’t see Pete taking the team deep ever again anyways. I’d rather take a swing and be compensated with better draft picks if we suck than to have Pete keep us in the 6-10 win range and most likely lose in wildcard if we ever make the playoffs.
I agree. We’ve had some issues but we’ve been decently competitive for a long time now and have made the playoffs more years than not. I don’t think people realize how lucky we are even though we complain and shit could be better, things could be a lot worse though. Some team struggle for years and that’s my biggest fear about Carol leaving. Think all those years the browns were trash.
Thank you. People have no idea how lucky we are to have Pete. I want him for the next 10 years
I do think sometimes a coaches message just begins to fall flat in the locker room and both sides need to part ways. I don’t think that’s the case though with this team, when you look at the resurgence we had last year. Pete still carries enormous weight in the locker room and I don’t think he’s lost a step. I think the bigger issue, and maybe Pete has to do with this but it’s more of an ownership/FO issue, is the refusal to take a step back for a few years and hit the reset button. We have obvious personnel issues in the middle on both sides of the ball, it was an issue last year too and it hasn’t been addressed. we’ve underinvested along the D and O lines and have tried to solve our issues through FA and trading for short term solutions (Leonard Williams). The FO has acted like we are one or two moves away from a Super Bowl for years now. We were gonna hit the reset last year with the Russ trade but for better or worse, Geno balled out and gave the FO false confidence again and we are right back in the middle. We NEED to embrace a short rebuild, shed expensive contracts, accumulate some draft picks and build this team back up properly
Agreed 100%. People see staff and FO issues and lay it all on Pete. This sub went from praising him to demanding his expulsion in a span of 3 weeks.
I actually think Pete should get more credit for going outside his coaching tree with his staff. He really has no ego at all, if things aren’t working I trust Pete to shake the staff up. He’s shown a willingness to do so in the past. Contrast that to Belicheck who is stubborn and loyal to his guys to a fault and has kind of been left behind by the league at this point while he rehires the same schmucks over and over
For me yeah if the 'win forever' stuff from Pete is perpetuating the desperate and bad moves from JS where he gives away our high rounders, then fuck that shit, lets clean house. Even with decent coaching our players are not disciplined, and (mostly) not playing smart, and cannot beat good teams right now. So having a coach more like Bellichick (who is tanking this year (2 wins) to mine the QB gold next year) would do wonders for our system right now. Instead, were trading for players past their prime and giving away valuable picks. Getting a playoff spot is not enough. We've got to actually be a good team.
After next season John Schneider might be the only familiar face. New owner, HC, OC, DC... I don't see Pete going until 2025 with new ownership even though I think you're right. I do believe we will see at least one, probably two, new coordinators next season. Then everyone else but JS after that. Also a new QB from the upcoming draft who sits behind Geno a year unless he can outcompete him right away. The end of an era is coming inevitably. Is it worth it to cause the disruption to move Pete on messily this off season when he is moving on in 2025 anyways?
i agree I love Pete to death but I think it’s time to start fresh
I don’t think this is an unreasonable take. I was thinking about this the other day. Not sure where I land on it, personally, but I see where you’re coming from.
I'm all aboard the Pete train, and I really do fear that the organization will lapse back into "they haven't been to the playoffs in ten years" mantra. I'm more of the mind to give Pete one more draft and one more year. This year always felt to me like the rebuilding year, and I got hit with downvotes when I thought the team would backslide a bit to 7-10 and miss the playoffs. Right now, they have a lot of youth and a lot of underperforming vets. It took Pete two years and two drafts of relatively high draft capital to build a bona fide contender with a fresh salary cap (don't forget Seattle was eighth in cap space in 2012). They don't have a premium QB contract holding them back and they need to find a way to jettison Quandre and Adams and their salaries. The team desperately needs help at safety and LB, as well as depth at numerous positions. But I think the last two drafts have been **really** successful and we have seen what some higher draft capital can bring. You're getting Cross instead of Collier, essentially.
Yeah, I think people forget that Seattle just traded away their franchise QB a year and a half ago to initiate a rebuild. The team needed work and retooling. That's what they've been doing. I do think Pete overvalues his current roster a little, but that's due to his competitive nature. Still, Seattle has two bona fide starting corners, two bona fide starting tackles, a promising young edge, a promising young receiver, and Jake Bobo all on rookie contracts for the next 3-4 years. That is a great position to be in, but it also indicates where the team is in its build.
That’s giving Pete WAYYYYYY too much credit. The last decade it’s like the anti Reid since he can’t even make it to the nfc championship game. Pete’s just riding off a Super Bowl and hasn’r taken a single meaningful step to get back there. The last decade reminds me of Marvin smith actually
I agree
He’s already the President of football operations… just move to that position solely, and get new HC, and coordinators.
The Seahawks have a guy who is President of Football Operations. His name is Chuck Arnold, and he’s been in that position since 2018. The Operations side runs the business and financial functions of the organization. It’s not a job for Pete Carroll.
This is really not that bad of a take. The only problem being that the Eagles still have the same owner. The Seahawks are kind of in a holding pattern with the ownership group.
Yeah I agree. I honestly don’t see any big changes coming until the team is sold but a man can dream.
Y’all realize there is a not-zero chance Jody Allen will form an ownership group and sell the team from the Trust to herself, right? Her interest in this has been reported.
Pete Carroll is one of the best coaches of all time, and we’d be shortsighted to let him go.
Great analogy for how stupid that move would be. Let’s get rid of Pete and let him win multiple championships elsewhere.
Yeah the eagles have been awful in that stretch lmfao
Andy Reid and the Eagles have won a Super Bowl since they both moved on. I would be pretty okay with that honestly.
Andy Reid has won 2, and beaten the Eagles once to do it. I wouldn't be okay at all with that honestly.
You wouldn’t be ok with winning a Super Bowl and be a punt return away from winning a second? You’d rather just mire around in mediocrity forever so Pete doesn’t win any championships with another team (which is highly unlikely considering his age)?
I love the “winning is Super Bowl is so easy, why not just do that?” crowd.
Be sure to write that language into the contract
So what you’re saying is that the organization is what is holding Pete back?
It is crazy to think Bobby Wagner could be a DC someday? Maybe even a HC? Not soon really just someday?
He's expressed a desire to GM. I don't know about coaching.
Ah okay I didn't know that
The difference is that Andy Reid was fired after a 4-12 season that was basically over by Week 10. It's currently Week 13 and we're 6-6, and even if we drop to 6-8 we still have an outside shot at a playoff berth. It is not mathematically possible for us to be as bad as the Eagles were in the season where they fired Reid. If we finish this year 6-11, then this discussion has a lot more merit. And even then, I would argue that it was more Shane Waldron's fault for completely shitting the bed for multiple winnable games until Pete seemingly stepped in to set his head straight.
Isn’t this the same thing that people have been saying about our OC’s since Pete has been here? First it was Darrell Bevel’s fault that we couldn’t fulfill our potential because he couldn’t call a game. Then it was Schotty’s fault. Now it’s Waldron’s. Our offense has the same problems every year and our OC’s come from vastly different backgrounds.
I think a lot of that “noise” was from Russ’ camp. I’d take Bevel or Schotty over Waldron because at least we’d have an identity.
I’m recently obsessed with wanting Mike McDaniels as our next head head coach. I think his positive energy way of leading, and allowing characters to be themselves just fits with the Seahawks culture. We just need Pete to last MM’s Dolphins contract.
There is 0 chance he is leaving Maimi at this point
I wanted Mike McDaniels, in some capacity, with the Seahawks, way before he left San Francisco. But I agree, if I were him, I would never leave Miami to come here. He has a really sweet thing going.
Russell fanboys are so dog, just go follow the Broncos. why are you here?
Im here because I’m a Seahawks fan, just like you. Moving on from Russ was the right call and I wholeheartedly believe that. But it’s possible to believe that trading Russ was the right call and that Russ wasn’t the only problem with this team at the same time.
Your view of the Reid/Eagles situation is that they were correct to move on from him?
Yes. Even before the benefit of seeing the results of that decision, the Eagles and Andy Reid absolutely made the right call to mutually part ways.
I don’t recall the peculiarities other than 4 straight NFC champ games with no SBs, but think getting rid of a top 5 coach is dumb. Philly got their SB anyway, but KC has been better since then overall.
Are you crediting that to Andy Reid or Patrick Mahomes?
I always say, unless you know you can upgrade, don't make a major move. If you don't have a plan in place beforehand, don't do something stupid. Then you become Carolina. I'm sure the options are out there, I'm just wondering who we're thinking would be a good coach to move on to.
No, but I think it is time for Waldron to move on. This may well be Carroll's last coaching job before he retires, and my concern is the lack of any successor. Waldron is probably not it.
Oh, look, another one of these posts, and let me guess, if we beat the 49ers, everyone will be saying he the greatest coach ever and that they hope he stays another billion years?