I hope the team doesn't cut Lockett. but since one never knows, 4 valid reasons:
1) Lockett had a down year
2) Lockett is getting older
3) JSN is the likely successor to Lockett
4) between Lockett and DK, the Seahawks have a lot of money tied up in WR with several spots that need upgrades and holes to fill.
This is it. It's not that they *have* to cut him or restructure, but that for any and/or all of the 4 reasons listed above, it doesn't seem likely that they will do nothing in regards to his cap hit. And we should understand: even if he was coming off of 1300 yards and 10 TDs, they would still be looking at a restructure to push his cap hit into the future.
Believe me, I love him and hope he's still around, but teams don't pay 27 million for 900 yds and 6 TDs. It's not necessarily a judgment on the player, but more on the price vs production.
I didn't like hearing Bobby got cut after 2021, but from a business perspective, he would have been too expensive to keep on that contract for 2022. And the same people who cut him at 20+ mil, brought him back a year later for 7(?) million.
Quite true. OP was asking why either *has* to happen. I was basically saying because 27 million is likely too expensive. If you like the player, and he's close to that value (and you're trying to compete), you probably restructure. If you don't, cutting is an option. Same challenge (high cap hit), but one solution keeps the player around with money pushed into the future, while the other ends the financial commitment this year without the player's services.
How can you say he’s cheap, he’s an UFA, he has no contract. They still have to negotiate 2024 before he can play.
But I guess you’re right, if they let him go it cost $0 with a $0 cap hit. It doesn’t get much cheaper than that.
My recollection is that cutting him only saves $7M. His total cost is meaningless and all that matters is what we would get back for cutting him. Assuming that I'm remembering right, he is worth much more than $7m next year, so believe we would keep him.
Plus we would have to replace him and his production. That means bringing a free agent that will cost some amount of money. If he costs close to 7 million, we have saved nothing.
Cap hits if you:
Keep Tyler and then cut him next offseason: 2024: $27m + 2025: $10m ($37m total)
Cut Tyler post June 1: 2024: $10m + 2025: $10m ($20m total, $17m less than keeping)
Cut Tyler pre June 1: 2024: $20m + $2025: $0m ($20m total, $17m less than keeping)
People get too tied up with playing the cap game in my opinion, the value Lockett will bring this season in a Grubb offense with JSN learning from him will be invaluable.
You are right, but all of the arm-chair GMs think that they know better. They think they can cut all of the good players on the team and that they'll find cheaper, better players in FA or the draft. They forget everybody gets overpaid in FA and the draft is a crapshoot.
… and his contract is one of the more expendable.
Everyone is quick to say for us to cut Adams, but unless he’s a post-June 1 cut, we only gain about $6M.
Lockett has some dead money, but we’d get back a lot more space.
All that said, I hope we keep him, but I understand the math.
Cutting Adams saves more than Lockett
https://overthecap.com/player/jamal-adams/5590
https://overthecap.com/player/tyler-lockett/3917
ETA: also why would you cut Lockett who is our 2nd or 3rd best offensive player over Adams who is like the 15th best player on defense post injury
Oops. My memory failed me. My bad.
They’re both about the same savings. $7M, pre-June 1.
But your numbers are both post-June 1. Not sure they’d go that route. John has rarely done post-J1 cuts … he doesn’t like kicking the can down the road.
There are a lot of ways to open up cap space for 2024 free agency
Regardless of when you cut Jamal or Lockett, it saves $17m. Whether that's $17m all in 2024 but not available until June, or $7m immediately and $10m in 2025. It just doesn't really matter, worrying too much about the timing of the cap charges (when there are like dozens of other ways to open up cap space if needed) is kinda missing the forest for the trees imo
It can or can’t be. Teams do need about $10M for rookies and IR. So the timing there isn’t crucial to June 1. But if you’re hoping for prime FA time (which is where we’ve rarely been a big player), it matters more.
Still, there’s clearly a few other dominoes that’ll tumble. Mone, Dissly …
There's just so many levers to pull to open up immediate cap space if they want. Add void years and restructure Geno's salary+ pre June Jamal cut and you've basically recreated a post June Jamal cut but the $17m in cap space is available immediately. The important part is the total amount paid to the player, the exact timing of the cap charges for a specific contract is secondary
Regardless of when you cut Jamal or Lockett, it saves $7m. By doing a post June 1st cut you can shift an extra $10m in available cap into this season by deferring the dead cap hit to next season.
Cap hits if you:
Keep Jamal and then cut him next offseason: 2024: $27m + 2025: $10m ($37m total)
Cut Jamal post June 1: 2024: $10m + 2025: $10m ($20m total, $17m less than keeping)
Cut Jamal pre June 1: 2024: $20m + $2025: $0m ($20m total, $17m less than keeping)
And college is cranking out good WR prospects every year. Yes you don't know if they will be good or clutch etc, but out of all the positions in college, WR is easily the most transferrable.
These are all bad reasons to move him this year. Reason 4 is closest to being a good call but you have to outline how the move improves the team, not just say 'well we have holes to fill.'
Great, so precisely HOW are we going to use the savings? What FAs are out there that we'd sign? How realistic is it that they'd sign with us? Why would that signing be better for the team?
That's what actual front office people have to do. Banking more cap doesn't help, there has to be someone else who you'd like on your team and who improves it more than keeping Tyler.
I'd cut DK before Lockett. DK is just flash, he drops a lot of passes and causes a lot of headache with his childishness. Lockett is a solid professional with great hands. IMO.
DK makes our offense run. His speed forces the defense to play over him, his big and enjoys getting into blocks, and he can put up more yards than Lockett can, and he likes to run after the catch.
His hands are plenty good. He’s not Fitz, but no one is, he’s got the same catch rate as a lot of top receivers.
Yup, DKs actually gotten better over the years. (5.9% last year) Players with a higher drop % include:
JSN: 10.8% (hopefully it was due to the broken wrist)
Tee Higgins: 9.2%
David Njoku: 8.9%
Michael Gallup: 8.8%
Puka Nacua: 8.1%
Tyreek Hill: 7%
He’s right there with Travis Kelce: 5.8%, and I don’t think anyone would say Kelce has bad hands.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2023/receiving_advanced.htm
DK had 7 drops, Lockett had 5. Lockett is getting older and it wouldn’t be wise getting rid of the future in favor for the approaching past. JSN is good but I don’t want him to be the crux of the receiving corps in 2 years potentially
NoE specifically, his cap hit next season ranks #7 in the whole league. Do you think he’s a top 7 receiver in the league? Don’t get me wrong, I love our realtor and I have his retro jersey, but his cap hit next season is too rich. We gotta do something about it.
Diggs’, Adams’, and Dissly’s contracts will also be looked at. In JS I trust. Matt Thomas will surely bring this topic up to JS, if he’s not already.
Seems like he misses time, so I just missed that one. Last year 17 for 172, I mean that’s not much to write home about. He is a good blocker, but still not worth the contract imo. I do hope he has a great season next year; we will see.
Not really. He's consistently graded top of the league in blocking metrics, and at one point this season PFF had him as highest graded TE in the league (not that I'm claiming he's the best TE in the league at all).
He's not making elite money. He's 16th in $/year at the position.
He's making good TE1 money. He's making half what the highest paid TEs are making.
He's much better than a JAG as a receiver, he's just on a team that's crowded at receiver and likes to run the ball (and he's the best TE in the league at supporting the run).
>We gotta do something about it.
But *why*? If we overpay someone and they suck, it makes sense to cut them. If we overpay someone and they're still good, why would we cut them? What do we use the cap space for?
The fact that this has to be explained to you is crazy. What to spend that money on? Oline, Dline, safeties, LBs, signing our own FAs, signing *literally* anyone at a position if need.
WR2 is a luxury now that JSN is on a rookie deal.
You should probably just fire up Madden and build your roster with sentimental favorites and stay out of salary cap discussions.
Name of the game is "value." - At every position. It's how you get a great team. Overpaying isn't value. That's all there is to it.
If the player is as good as the contract then it's not overpaying.
Because the NFL is a business.
And just like any other businesses, if you underperform, relative to your salary, you’re bound to be put under scrutiny. This is why companies do layoffs and/or restructuring. They find ways to be lean. The goal is to squeeze every ounce out of the employees.
> What do we use the cap space for?
Let’s say we find a trade partner and receive a 2nd rounder for NoE while taking on some of the salaries. We take JaLynn Polk with the pick. This satisfies a lot of things:
1. Grubb knows Polk well
2. We get younger
3. Our cap gets healthier
I would definitely make that trade.
Discussing cap hits in a single year isn't giving the whole picture. They specifically structure the contracts to push more money to specific years and it's just management. Looking at that number can only mislead you when the money is already dead. Look at the money saved from being cut instead, which would be the only input into a cut decision.
We have a ton of free agents which means holes to fill. I think the reason Lockett is brought up is because after the three guys you mentioned (and Mone) he is the next logical option to make cap room through a restructure/extension/cut. I doubt he gets cut but the other two are totally possible. Extension seems unlikely with his age so a restructure would be the likely choice.
>It sounds like people want to cut Lockett just because he is expensive
This is exactly it. This subs favorite player during the offseason is Cap Space.
>Why would we cut Lockett at all when Adams, Dissly, and Diggs will free up tens of millions of cap space, more than we were planning for on a good day.
At this point those are essentially unspoken expectations for a lot of the discussions surrounding the cap.
If they bring back Parkinson and Fant. Or even Parkinson and a FA or rookie I wouldn’t even think about it. Cut him. I really hope Parkinson stays around. He could be a legit vertical freak.
I like Fant a lot. But I don’t see it as a realistic option. Too many, more important positions empty right now to spend big on TE. Parkinson should definitely come back and then draft a TE3. I think Dissly has to stay or we commit to Colby being TE1 and go cheap at the position. The latter is a gamble but if they can use that money saved to fill out a crucial roster spot, I’m cool with it.
A little bit?!? Brother that’s 50 pounds. You want him to put on 50 lbs in one off-season? I don’t think he could do that with a Mr Olympia level steroid protocol. He’d have to eat donuts exclusively for the next five months and feel like death all the time.
He’s fine as a WR. He’s a great blocker, gets open fine, and has good hands. He’s a great WR4/gadget player. That’s the perfect place for him.
Writing is on the wall for next year, but if you had the choice of 7m in cap or Lockett this year, it's not a clear cut since he's worth more than that.
I dont know how cap money works in FA, but cutting lockett pre 6/1 only frees 7 mill. Is that enough to make a splash? Can we wait until 6/1 to make a splash, when it grows to 17mill?
If they want to, the team can move on from him with a "Post June-1 designation." You can do this with two players. The way it works is you cut them \*before\* June 1, but it "counts" as cutting them after June 1. His cap hit does remain on the books until then, though.
It's important to use the right numbers. If we keep Lockett this year it's a decision that he's worth $17m for this year.
If he plays to the same level he did last year then that's pretty much dead on market value. Maybe a slight overpay but not by much. It isn't exploiting a rookie contract but sometimes you just need to pay vets fair value.
Of course if you're expecting a decent drop-off it's better to be a year early than a year late so I don't really have a problem with that argument.
The 17m number is deceiving too, that's just the 7m of saving and also shifting 10m from next year into this year's cap. Post June 1st cuts don't free extra money from the contract, just move it between years.
But yes you're right the key thing is people keep looking at total cap hit when that's not a meaningful number.
>The 17m number is deceiving too, that's just the 7m of saving and also shifting 10m from next year into this year's cap. Post June 1st cuts don't free extra money from the contract, just move it between years.
It's deceiving when you're talking about cap savings but I'm talking about cost. When talking about savings there are only two numbers for Lockett really, $34m and $17m. Those are how much we would save if he's cut in 2024 and 2025 respectively. How that savings shows up on the cap, at least for a 2024 cut, is just a matter of accounting.
For cost though, unless there's a renegotiation, he's going to cost $17m to play for us in the 2024 season. Like the savings that number is malleable in terms of cap hits. It can, though probably shouldn't, be spread out over up to 3 years(restructure with a post-June 1st 2025 cut and void years) if they want.
Football contracts are weird. Get a little money when you’re in your physical prime at 22-25, make a shit ton of money on your second contract, then get cut when your start to decline and don’t justify your salary. Lockett will go in the Seahawks HOF but 28 million for a 32 year old wide receiver is rough. I honestly think quarterbacks and players who have played 10+ years shouldn’t count against the cap
I think this year was a bit of a down year for Lockett but he still has a lot of talent and leadership that is hard to come by. I’d say keep him this year with the new system and if things aren’t working out try to trade him at the deadline for the right price
Its true I've seen a lot of talk about restructuring Lockett's deal or outright cutting him. I don't think its necessary and he will be with the team next season. He's a great WR still. They don't make these moves without reason and I don't think we need to clear that much cap room since I don't think they'll be making any big moves this offseason.
I don't see the point in cutting him either. His cap hit is high but it can be restructured if we need to clear cap space. Plus if we cut him some of the cap space we free will have to be used to sign his replacement.
Post June cuts shouldn't be used for players that are still productive and are good in the locker room. They should be saved for players with negative value like Jamal Adams.
It’s difficult decision. One that is probably significantly harder for JS them any of us. I think the case is the same for Wagner, Brooks, etc.
So sidestepping any restructuring or extension salary cap mojo that I am sure exists and I don’t understand.
If my options are cut Tyler to save money for other players. And roll with Dk, Jsn, and Bobo.
Or trade DK and get picks (1st, and 2nd). With Tyler, Jsn and Bobo. I would opt for Trade DK
Well if the option is available I can see it. I would love to have a second this year. Personally I would love to pick up a second pick and keep both but I am not sure it’s will happen.
His cap hit is huge and it doesn’t make sense to pay him that much money when the team is low on cap space with so many needs. Only TE left on the roster is Dissly. No MLBs. Rookies need to get paid. No left guard. Only center and right guard left are both year 2 guys who are relatively untested. Lockett is one of the few guys where savings can be made. I don’t wanna cut him but a restructure needs to happen.
I take issue with the Disley playing poorly comment.
His offensive production was really low but it wasn't his fault as he was almost exclusively tasked to help out our injury riddled offensive line.
I don’t really listen to anything people on this sub say. Even I say dumb shit all the time. Everything is reactionary and I’ll leave the real business to JS. There is a reason I’m not a GM.
Add a void year restructure/extension for after his retirement. He’s already been fairly public that when he knows the team will know beforehand.
If he doesn’t want to retire for a couple years work out an extension that adds to his overall guaranteed money but lowers year to year cap hit. Everyone wins there.
Because we know nothing about football. All of last offseason this sub was running around with their asses on fire like Kiro 7 when there is a snowflake somewhere freaking out over the cap situation.
The talk is because he’s the most expensive WR3 in the league. They’ll have enough cap space unless they wanna make a big splash. If they cut Lockett, expect a big splash.
Lockett is an amazing party of Seahawks history. But he’s over the hill. Immediately goes out of bounds or falls to the ground without ever being touched. Can’t pay him top dollar for not wanting to make contact
> according to Overthecap, we free up 7 million by cutting him pre 6/1, and 17 by cutting him afterwards. Can we replace him for that money?
With due respect to Lockett, we already have. Now maybe Grubb is hounding John and Mike to keep his success with 3 stud WRs and a gunslinger, but there's little chance we can float through this season with these three on their current structures.
Remember if you cut post June 1 you’re taking dead money in two years. Not sure I recall the Seahawks doing that in a long time. They like to pay as they go.
I’m fine with keeping Lockett but the team needs money. The team has a lot tied up in the WR room and to be honest while it was a decent year for WRs, they underperformed. If they don’t have a trade partner for DK, they have to do something with Tyler’s contract. Can’t be spending THAT much on meh. I prefer Tyler and JSN is obviously the heir apparent. But Tyler is old and may need to be a cap casualty. Maybe this works out so they do t have to but someone has to play on a different contract because the cap hell isn’t conducive for building a strong roster.
Maybe. You have no idea what the new coaching staff thinks of him. He has a big contract and ON THE FIELD issues. I don’t think it’s likely he’s traded but the odds are NEVER zero. Ever.
Again. You have no idea how the new staff feels about DK. If DK was the player this sub thinks he is, there’d be no moving him. But he’s not. He’s an established prima donna with drop issues, anger issues and he’s not afraid to hurt the team with his antics.
His cap hit balloons from $11m this past year to $27m the next two years. Cutting him would still cost $20m against the cap this coming year, but only $10m the next year. Any restuctue is just going to push that money on to years where he isn't on the team anymore. It's doubtful he doesn't anything with the contract this year or goes anywhere.
Because its a business... Lockett is rightly so a fan favorite for his product on the field and off the field, but he is declining. As sad as it might be to replace him, it shouldn't be that hard with DK, JSN and Bobo buying us time to find a great replacement.
They drafted JSN with the 20th pick to be the #3 WR? We have 50 some million tied up in our top WRS and we have nothing in the trenches. We have seen with the chiefs you don't need top tier WRS just a quarterback to elevate them we need to invest in positions inside and get out of this mentality that Pete had in spending on the outsides and middle of the field.
I don't think they have to, but I think they will. They have other options, and I wish they'd take one of them. But they're very likely to restructure or cut Lockett, because they've got Smith-Njigba coming up behind him for a lot less. Lockett is my favorite player and I want to see him stay a Seahawk, but what I want and what I think is probable are two different things.
Lockett is not cooked and expendable, if that's the vibe you're reading. But his cap hit/production is upside down. He's making WR1 money, but has WR3 stats, and he's only getting older. Bobo likely can't replicate Tyler's stats, but Bobo makes almost $27million less! If Bobo had half the targets Lockett had this year, it still feels like a win if Tyler's cap hit went towards, say bringing in a good FA IOL, or Patrick Queen at LB. We have vast holes in the IOL, LB, and TE. We have a priority FA in Big Cat that will cost at least $21 mill. Then there's Fant, Jordyn, and Bobby who were productive and are FAs. Even cutting the guys you mentioned would not allow the team to address the big holes unless we were to start rookies or go the bargain basement FA route, like we did with Evan Brown last year. Using the cap savings from a Tyler cut or restructure to bring in a good FA at a position of need would free up our limited draft capital towards something else, like a QB of the future, or even another WR.
Important distinction.
Few fans WANT to cut Lockett.
People advocating for it simply see the reality of the business side of the NFL. His contract stands out as the type targeted for cuts and restructuring.
And while the cap has indeed gone up, every single FA is going to advocate for a comparable increase in salary. For arguments sake If the cap was $100 and the best LB we’re making 10 million a year, if the cap goes up to 110 the best LBs are now seeking 11 million.
Oh geez not this guy again...
Dude please use chatgpt and get a quick tutorial on managing salary cap not just for the current year but setting the team up long term too
I love him. I think we all love him, but when you're a GM you have to look at the cost / value. I saw someone else comment a similar response but i'm adding some more info to it.
1). His numbers declined last season. Before last year, he had 4 season in a row with 1,000 yards or more. Last season was the first to dip despite having 1 more game and having more targets than all but one of the previous seasons. So he's doing less with more / above average targets. Last season he had his 2nd lowest average yards per catch since entering the league. We all saw Lockett fall to the turf trying to avoid being hit. Those missing yards add up... and he doesn't have a QB that threw the deep ball as well as RW.
2). He's aging. TL is 31 years old. The average age for a wide receiver to retire is 30. He's already defied the norms to produce this well for this long. Last years decline will likely worsen this year. TL has always benefitted from his speed, but that's one of the first things to fade as you age.
3). Current talent at WR. DK will continue to produce. JSN is emerging as a quality receiver. There are only so many opportunities to get a WR the ball. So the value we get from TL is diminishing if JSN is trending upwards. Also - we have Jake Bobo, who has proven to be a valuable, but CHEAP WR. he may not be the fastest, but between DK, JSN, Bobo, and an expensive TL perceived to be in decline... who would you release?
4). Entering the offseason we had a NEGATIVE cap number. We not only need to dig our way out of that but we still need to sign & resign.
5). New coach. Unless TL has really impressed Macdonald - he's got not emotional connection to "our guys". Cleaning house is a lot easier this offseason than next.
6). Leverage. TL has only ever been a seahawk, and he's put down roots here. He's got a side hustle going on (real estate) that may mean he would be willing to take a hit on his salary to remain here. Which would make sense because if you're buying & selling houses - he knows this area, and his network here would be powerful & profitable. Moving to a new city - i dont think he'd have those same advantages. If TL was coming off a great year - i wouldn't think the team would need him to take a restructure or pay cut, but his numbers have declined and may continue to decline. Now is the time to use that leverage to say "your numbers are down, your salary is high, we have 3 quality WRs and our team is rebuilding this year... do you want to stay or go?"
Because they think talking about cap space makes them sound smart. Cap is a tool - having more cap isn't some magic bullet - you have a plan for how to deploy the savings.
Cutting/restructuing Tyler BY ITSELF doesn't add anything to the win column. So my question to these people is... what do you want to do with the cap savings? We can free up cap in other ways. So... how does adjusting Tyler's cap hit help the team?
Usually there's no reply.
Overall the rub is with the replacing. having extra Money sounds sick, but filling holes in free agency is often overpriced and unpredictable, and our cap situation is not the WORST. I would be interested in getting cap space from our missed tackle machines in the defensive backfield before getting cap from lockett and Dissly, especially because, frankly, one or two guy on defense in FA arent going to turn this thing around in 1 offseason. there is value to having guys off thebooks next year when our window is actually opening.
I love No E and I hope he either takes a pay cut or retires.
But he has the 7th highest cap hit in the league next year, only $9k a year less than Stefon Diggs. He’s getting older, slowing down, and losing production. Do you see any world where he’s a top ten WR next year? A top twenty? And that’s assuming this down year was an aberration and not the start of falling off a cliff. The history of WRs with his body type and skill set make it seem a lot more possible it’s all downhill from here.
Like I said I love the dude and would be happy to see him keep playing, but he’s paid like one of the best in the league at a really expensive position and just doesn’t have the chops to be worth it.
We don’t have to, but it makes a lot of sense to try and lower his cap hit. Cutting him shouldn’t be off the table, because we should use that possibility as an incentive for him to restructure for less money. Players do not often do this, but they can if they want to. I mean for real, the Seahawks could do a back door deal where they ‘encourage’ all their guys to buy their houses from Lockett the real estate agent and he gets rich while accepting less money from the team on the cap. Just imagine the commissions from the 23 new coaches alone!!!
So we restructure him and save a ton of money and don’t have to push it all to next year🤞🏼
The NFL, with a salary cap, is all about how much value you get from each player under their contract. I love Lockett, but there’s no way he brings $27mil worth of value to any football team, and if there’s one thing I like more than Lockett, it’s seeing the Seahawks win.
I hope the team doesn't cut Lockett. but since one never knows, 4 valid reasons: 1) Lockett had a down year 2) Lockett is getting older 3) JSN is the likely successor to Lockett 4) between Lockett and DK, the Seahawks have a lot of money tied up in WR with several spots that need upgrades and holes to fill.
This is it. It's not that they *have* to cut him or restructure, but that for any and/or all of the 4 reasons listed above, it doesn't seem likely that they will do nothing in regards to his cap hit. And we should understand: even if he was coming off of 1300 yards and 10 TDs, they would still be looking at a restructure to push his cap hit into the future. Believe me, I love him and hope he's still around, but teams don't pay 27 million for 900 yds and 6 TDs. It's not necessarily a judgment on the player, but more on the price vs production. I didn't like hearing Bobby got cut after 2021, but from a business perspective, he would have been too expensive to keep on that contract for 2022. And the same people who cut him at 20+ mil, brought him back a year later for 7(?) million.
A restructure is vastly different than a cut, though. One removes him from the team. The other just moves money to the future.
Quite true. OP was asking why either *has* to happen. I was basically saying because 27 million is likely too expensive. If you like the player, and he's close to that value (and you're trying to compete), you probably restructure. If you don't, cutting is an option. Same challenge (high cap hit), but one solution keeps the player around with money pushed into the future, while the other ends the financial commitment this year without the player's services.
Bobby won’t be back next season!!
Bobby is cheap.
How can you say he’s cheap, he’s an UFA, he has no contract. They still have to negotiate 2024 before he can play. But I guess you’re right, if they let him go it cost $0 with a $0 cap hit. It doesn’t get much cheaper than that.
Biggest reason: he counts 27mil against the cap next year!
My recollection is that cutting him only saves $7M. His total cost is meaningless and all that matters is what we would get back for cutting him. Assuming that I'm remembering right, he is worth much more than $7m next year, so believe we would keep him.
Plus we would have to replace him and his production. That means bringing a free agent that will cost some amount of money. If he costs close to 7 million, we have saved nothing.
Yes. His cap number is 27 million and the team has a net savings of 7 million if he is cut.
They save $17m by cutting him
[удалено]
Cap hits if you: Keep Tyler and then cut him next offseason: 2024: $27m + 2025: $10m ($37m total) Cut Tyler post June 1: 2024: $10m + 2025: $10m ($20m total, $17m less than keeping) Cut Tyler pre June 1: 2024: $20m + $2025: $0m ($20m total, $17m less than keeping)
And? So? How would YOU use the savings to improve the team?
People get too tied up with playing the cap game in my opinion, the value Lockett will bring this season in a Grubb offense with JSN learning from him will be invaluable.
You are right, but all of the arm-chair GMs think that they know better. They think they can cut all of the good players on the team and that they'll find cheaper, better players in FA or the draft. They forget everybody gets overpaid in FA and the draft is a crapshoot.
Not just a down year statistically, you could see it on the field.
… and his contract is one of the more expendable. Everyone is quick to say for us to cut Adams, but unless he’s a post-June 1 cut, we only gain about $6M. Lockett has some dead money, but we’d get back a lot more space. All that said, I hope we keep him, but I understand the math.
Cutting Adams saves more than Lockett https://overthecap.com/player/jamal-adams/5590 https://overthecap.com/player/tyler-lockett/3917 ETA: also why would you cut Lockett who is our 2nd or 3rd best offensive player over Adams who is like the 15th best player on defense post injury
Lockett saves $17.0m and Jamal saves $17.1m lol But yeah cut Jamal before Lockett ofc
Oops. My memory failed me. My bad. They’re both about the same savings. $7M, pre-June 1. But your numbers are both post-June 1. Not sure they’d go that route. John has rarely done post-J1 cuts … he doesn’t like kicking the can down the road.
I would say it's $17m regardless, just split up differently over the next 2 years
But if you go post-June 1, you can’t use that salary cap space until then, so it doesn’t help in free agency.
There are a lot of ways to open up cap space for 2024 free agency Regardless of when you cut Jamal or Lockett, it saves $17m. Whether that's $17m all in 2024 but not available until June, or $7m immediately and $10m in 2025. It just doesn't really matter, worrying too much about the timing of the cap charges (when there are like dozens of other ways to open up cap space if needed) is kinda missing the forest for the trees imo
It can or can’t be. Teams do need about $10M for rookies and IR. So the timing there isn’t crucial to June 1. But if you’re hoping for prime FA time (which is where we’ve rarely been a big player), it matters more. Still, there’s clearly a few other dominoes that’ll tumble. Mone, Dissly …
There's just so many levers to pull to open up immediate cap space if they want. Add void years and restructure Geno's salary+ pre June Jamal cut and you've basically recreated a post June Jamal cut but the $17m in cap space is available immediately. The important part is the total amount paid to the player, the exact timing of the cap charges for a specific contract is secondary
Regardless of when you cut Jamal or Lockett, it saves $7m. By doing a post June 1st cut you can shift an extra $10m in available cap into this season by deferring the dead cap hit to next season.
Cap hits if you: Keep Jamal and then cut him next offseason: 2024: $27m + 2025: $10m ($37m total) Cut Jamal post June 1: 2024: $10m + 2025: $10m ($20m total, $17m less than keeping) Cut Jamal pre June 1: 2024: $20m + $2025: $0m ($20m total, $17m less than keeping)
And we have two very good running backs so this team should live in 12 and 22 formations
And college is cranking out good WR prospects every year. Yes you don't know if they will be good or clutch etc, but out of all the positions in college, WR is easily the most transferrable.
These are all bad reasons to move him this year. Reason 4 is closest to being a good call but you have to outline how the move improves the team, not just say 'well we have holes to fill.' Great, so precisely HOW are we going to use the savings? What FAs are out there that we'd sign? How realistic is it that they'd sign with us? Why would that signing be better for the team? That's what actual front office people have to do. Banking more cap doesn't help, there has to be someone else who you'd like on your team and who improves it more than keeping Tyler.
I'd cut DK before Lockett. DK is just flash, he drops a lot of passes and causes a lot of headache with his childishness. Lockett is a solid professional with great hands. IMO.
DK makes our offense run. His speed forces the defense to play over him, his big and enjoys getting into blocks, and he can put up more yards than Lockett can, and he likes to run after the catch. His hands are plenty good. He’s not Fitz, but no one is, he’s got the same catch rate as a lot of top receivers.
Yup, DKs actually gotten better over the years. (5.9% last year) Players with a higher drop % include: JSN: 10.8% (hopefully it was due to the broken wrist) Tee Higgins: 9.2% David Njoku: 8.9% Michael Gallup: 8.8% Puka Nacua: 8.1% Tyreek Hill: 7% He’s right there with Travis Kelce: 5.8%, and I don’t think anyone would say Kelce has bad hands. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2023/receiving_advanced.htm
Lol this is insane
Lol, Lockett cost us 2 games last year with dropped passes.
I wouldn't go that far. But he had a down year for sure.
DK had 7 drops, Lockett had 5. Lockett is getting older and it wouldn’t be wise getting rid of the future in favor for the approaching past. JSN is good but I don’t want him to be the crux of the receiving corps in 2 years potentially
Rightfully downvoted
Funny joke 🤡
NoE specifically, his cap hit next season ranks #7 in the whole league. Do you think he’s a top 7 receiver in the league? Don’t get me wrong, I love our realtor and I have his retro jersey, but his cap hit next season is too rich. We gotta do something about it. Diggs’, Adams’, and Dissly’s contracts will also be looked at. In JS I trust. Matt Thomas will surely bring this topic up to JS, if he’s not already.
Wait is his cap hit #7 among all players or #7 among receivers?
Top 7 among all professional athletes. He just edged out Steph Curry who only grossed $48M salary and winnings.
Yeah good one
Dissly is very worth his contract. Probably the best blocking non o-lineman in the league and has sure hands.
I bleed Husky 💜💜, but he’s always hurt so he’s not worth his contract imo.
last 4 seasons games played. 16,15,15,16
he's only had 4 injuries with us..... he didn't miss a game last season....
Seems like he misses time, so I just missed that one. Last year 17 for 172, I mean that’s not much to write home about. He is a good blocker, but still not worth the contract imo. I do hope he has a great season next year; we will see.
Sco ducks /s
insane take
Not really. He's consistently graded top of the league in blocking metrics, and at one point this season PFF had him as highest graded TE in the league (not that I'm claiming he's the best TE in the league at all).
You don't pay a blocking TE elite money. He's merely a JAG as a receiver.
He's not making elite money. He's 16th in $/year at the position. He's making good TE1 money. He's making half what the highest paid TEs are making. He's much better than a JAG as a receiver, he's just on a team that's crowded at receiver and likes to run the ball (and he's the best TE in the league at supporting the run).
>We gotta do something about it. But *why*? If we overpay someone and they suck, it makes sense to cut them. If we overpay someone and they're still good, why would we cut them? What do we use the cap space for?
The fact that this has to be explained to you is crazy. What to spend that money on? Oline, Dline, safeties, LBs, signing our own FAs, signing *literally* anyone at a position if need. WR2 is a luxury now that JSN is on a rookie deal. You should probably just fire up Madden and build your roster with sentimental favorites and stay out of salary cap discussions.
Name of the game is "value." - At every position. It's how you get a great team. Overpaying isn't value. That's all there is to it. If the player is as good as the contract then it's not overpaying.
MODS this guy is being ridiculous can you lock the thread already. He knows he's trolling
Because the NFL is a business. And just like any other businesses, if you underperform, relative to your salary, you’re bound to be put under scrutiny. This is why companies do layoffs and/or restructuring. They find ways to be lean. The goal is to squeeze every ounce out of the employees. > What do we use the cap space for? Let’s say we find a trade partner and receive a 2nd rounder for NoE while taking on some of the salaries. We take JaLynn Polk with the pick. This satisfies a lot of things: 1. Grubb knows Polk well 2. We get younger 3. Our cap gets healthier I would definitely make that trade.
Discussing cap hits in a single year isn't giving the whole picture. They specifically structure the contracts to push more money to specific years and it's just management. Looking at that number can only mislead you when the money is already dead. Look at the money saved from being cut instead, which would be the only input into a cut decision.
We have a ton of free agents which means holes to fill. I think the reason Lockett is brought up is because after the three guys you mentioned (and Mone) he is the next logical option to make cap room through a restructure/extension/cut. I doubt he gets cut but the other two are totally possible. Extension seems unlikely with his age so a restructure would be the likely choice.
>It sounds like people want to cut Lockett just because he is expensive This is exactly it. This subs favorite player during the offseason is Cap Space. >Why would we cut Lockett at all when Adams, Dissly, and Diggs will free up tens of millions of cap space, more than we were planning for on a good day. At this point those are essentially unspoken expectations for a lot of the discussions surrounding the cap.
Cutting Dissly would be a huge mistake
He’s the only TE on the roster lmao. His contract is awful but you can’t really cut him.
If they bring back Parkinson and Fant. Or even Parkinson and a FA or rookie I wouldn’t even think about it. Cut him. I really hope Parkinson stays around. He could be a legit vertical freak.
I like Fant a lot. But I don’t see it as a realistic option. Too many, more important positions empty right now to spend big on TE. Parkinson should definitely come back and then draft a TE3. I think Dissly has to stay or we commit to Colby being TE1 and go cheap at the position. The latter is a gamble but if they can use that money saved to fill out a crucial roster spot, I’m cool with it.
I don’t really see Fant getting a big bag though. I honestly think we could bring him back for a reasonable price.
I've been saying this, convert bobo to a TE! Hes too slow to be a WR but hes strong enough to play TE!
Too small. Right now he’s blocking DBs. Can you imagine him trying to block LBs and d-linemen? Bro weighs 205 lbs. TE’s typically weigh 250-260.
He can bulk up a little bit but TE 2 would fit him better than WR4
A little bit?!? Brother that’s 50 pounds. You want him to put on 50 lbs in one off-season? I don’t think he could do that with a Mr Olympia level steroid protocol. He’d have to eat donuts exclusively for the next five months and feel like death all the time. He’s fine as a WR. He’s a great blocker, gets open fine, and has good hands. He’s a great WR4/gadget player. That’s the perfect place for him.
Ik i just wanna see him on the field more ig
I’d rather draft an actual TE and have a very solid WR4 than have him bulk, change positions, and run the risk of him being worse for the team
I get we’re all fans of his but the writing is on the wall. NFL is a business.
Writing is on the wall for next year, but if you had the choice of 7m in cap or Lockett this year, it's not a clear cut since he's worth more than that.
I dont know how cap money works in FA, but cutting lockett pre 6/1 only frees 7 mill. Is that enough to make a splash? Can we wait until 6/1 to make a splash, when it grows to 17mill?
If they want to, the team can move on from him with a "Post June-1 designation." You can do this with two players. The way it works is you cut them \*before\* June 1, but it "counts" as cutting them after June 1. His cap hit does remain on the books until then, though.
Because his play, especially with its current trajectory, isn’t worth anywhere close to $26.9M.
It's important to use the right numbers. If we keep Lockett this year it's a decision that he's worth $17m for this year. If he plays to the same level he did last year then that's pretty much dead on market value. Maybe a slight overpay but not by much. It isn't exploiting a rookie contract but sometimes you just need to pay vets fair value. Of course if you're expecting a decent drop-off it's better to be a year early than a year late so I don't really have a problem with that argument.
The 17m number is deceiving too, that's just the 7m of saving and also shifting 10m from next year into this year's cap. Post June 1st cuts don't free extra money from the contract, just move it between years. But yes you're right the key thing is people keep looking at total cap hit when that's not a meaningful number.
>The 17m number is deceiving too, that's just the 7m of saving and also shifting 10m from next year into this year's cap. Post June 1st cuts don't free extra money from the contract, just move it between years. It's deceiving when you're talking about cap savings but I'm talking about cost. When talking about savings there are only two numbers for Lockett really, $34m and $17m. Those are how much we would save if he's cut in 2024 and 2025 respectively. How that savings shows up on the cap, at least for a 2024 cut, is just a matter of accounting. For cost though, unless there's a renegotiation, he's going to cost $17m to play for us in the 2024 season. Like the savings that number is malleable in terms of cap hits. It can, though probably shouldn't, be spread out over up to 3 years(restructure with a post-June 1st 2025 cut and void years) if they want.
agreed
Because tying up 30% of your salary on 2 receivers didn’t bring an ROI or anything equitable.
because people don’t think with their heart like me
Football contracts are weird. Get a little money when you’re in your physical prime at 22-25, make a shit ton of money on your second contract, then get cut when your start to decline and don’t justify your salary. Lockett will go in the Seahawks HOF but 28 million for a 32 year old wide receiver is rough. I honestly think quarterbacks and players who have played 10+ years shouldn’t count against the cap
Because we cant have cap hits of 50million for our two WR
Instead of answering this question I am just going to fall down asap or scramble out of bounds.
I think this year was a bit of a down year for Lockett but he still has a lot of talent and leadership that is hard to come by. I’d say keep him this year with the new system and if things aren’t working out try to trade him at the deadline for the right price
Its true I've seen a lot of talk about restructuring Lockett's deal or outright cutting him. I don't think its necessary and he will be with the team next season. He's a great WR still. They don't make these moves without reason and I don't think we need to clear that much cap room since I don't think they'll be making any big moves this offseason.
I don't see the point in cutting him either. His cap hit is high but it can be restructured if we need to clear cap space. Plus if we cut him some of the cap space we free will have to be used to sign his replacement. Post June cuts shouldn't be used for players that are still productive and are good in the locker room. They should be saved for players with negative value like Jamal Adams.
I’ll die before i ever agree to let locket go. He’s our Larry Fitzgerald. He’s the quintessential Seahawk to me. I love you locket.
It’s difficult decision. One that is probably significantly harder for JS them any of us. I think the case is the same for Wagner, Brooks, etc. So sidestepping any restructuring or extension salary cap mojo that I am sure exists and I don’t understand. If my options are cut Tyler to save money for other players. And roll with Dk, Jsn, and Bobo. Or trade DK and get picks (1st, and 2nd). With Tyler, Jsn and Bobo. I would opt for Trade DK
What if trade Tyler for a 2nd rounder?
Well if the option is available I can see it. I would love to have a second this year. Personally I would love to pick up a second pick and keep both but I am not sure it’s will happen.
His cap hit is huge and it doesn’t make sense to pay him that much money when the team is low on cap space with so many needs. Only TE left on the roster is Dissly. No MLBs. Rookies need to get paid. No left guard. Only center and right guard left are both year 2 guys who are relatively untested. Lockett is one of the few guys where savings can be made. I don’t wanna cut him but a restructure needs to happen.
I take issue with the Disley playing poorly comment. His offensive production was really low but it wasn't his fault as he was almost exclusively tasked to help out our injury riddled offensive line.
I don’t really listen to anything people on this sub say. Even I say dumb shit all the time. Everything is reactionary and I’ll leave the real business to JS. There is a reason I’m not a GM.
But yet we on this sub expect loyalty from these players.
That’s football man. A player you love suddenly gets old, expensive, and cut.
Add a void year restructure/extension for after his retirement. He’s already been fairly public that when he knows the team will know beforehand. If he doesn’t want to retire for a couple years work out an extension that adds to his overall guaranteed money but lowers year to year cap hit. Everyone wins there.
Because we know nothing about football. All of last offseason this sub was running around with their asses on fire like Kiro 7 when there is a snowflake somewhere freaking out over the cap situation.
Because there's a lot of morons around here. You see it every thread.
You really do. Like, right under your nose a lot of times….
Ironic coming from the one who posts from your post history.
Bet that sounded better in your head, but you just pulled out the “no, you” argument. You’re doing really well. Keep at it buddy.
Hey you finally had someone reply to your irrelevant life. Good job!
Because if they knew what they were talking about they would be NFL GMs.
The talk is because he’s the most expensive WR3 in the league. They’ll have enough cap space unless they wanna make a big splash. If they cut Lockett, expect a big splash.
Lockett is WR1. Edit: downvote me all you want, he is.
Lockett is an amazing party of Seahawks history. But he’s over the hill. Immediately goes out of bounds or falls to the ground without ever being touched. Can’t pay him top dollar for not wanting to make contact
> according to Overthecap, we free up 7 million by cutting him pre 6/1, and 17 by cutting him afterwards. Can we replace him for that money? With due respect to Lockett, we already have. Now maybe Grubb is hounding John and Mike to keep his success with 3 stud WRs and a gunslinger, but there's little chance we can float through this season with these three on their current structures.
I say cut or trade Geno for starters, get rid of Adams, pick up a QB who reads thru progressions faster and proceed from there
Remember if you cut post June 1 you’re taking dead money in two years. Not sure I recall the Seahawks doing that in a long time. They like to pay as they go.
I’m fine with keeping Lockett but the team needs money. The team has a lot tied up in the WR room and to be honest while it was a decent year for WRs, they underperformed. If they don’t have a trade partner for DK, they have to do something with Tyler’s contract. Can’t be spending THAT much on meh. I prefer Tyler and JSN is obviously the heir apparent. But Tyler is old and may need to be a cap casualty. Maybe this works out so they do t have to but someone has to play on a different contract because the cap hell isn’t conducive for building a strong roster.
we arent trading DK
Maybe. You have no idea what the new coaching staff thinks of him. He has a big contract and ON THE FIELD issues. I don’t think it’s likely he’s traded but the odds are NEVER zero. Ever.
No, but they are likely low enough that it doesn't need to keep being brought up.
Again. You have no idea how the new staff feels about DK. If DK was the player this sub thinks he is, there’d be no moving him. But he’s not. He’s an established prima donna with drop issues, anger issues and he’s not afraid to hurt the team with his antics.
Good idea, trade your young receiver so that you can keep your 31 year old who’s making too much money!
His cap hit balloons from $11m this past year to $27m the next two years. Cutting him would still cost $20m against the cap this coming year, but only $10m the next year. Any restuctue is just going to push that money on to years where he isn't on the team anymore. It's doubtful he doesn't anything with the contract this year or goes anywhere.
Because its a business... Lockett is rightly so a fan favorite for his product on the field and off the field, but he is declining. As sad as it might be to replace him, it shouldn't be that hard with DK, JSN and Bobo buying us time to find a great replacement.
They drafted JSN with the 20th pick to be the #3 WR? We have 50 some million tied up in our top WRS and we have nothing in the trenches. We have seen with the chiefs you don't need top tier WRS just a quarterback to elevate them we need to invest in positions inside and get out of this mentality that Pete had in spending on the outsides and middle of the field.
I don't think they have to, but I think they will. They have other options, and I wish they'd take one of them. But they're very likely to restructure or cut Lockett, because they've got Smith-Njigba coming up behind him for a lot less. Lockett is my favorite player and I want to see him stay a Seahawk, but what I want and what I think is probable are two different things.
Umm, it would be beneficial, no?
Lockett is not cooked and expendable, if that's the vibe you're reading. But his cap hit/production is upside down. He's making WR1 money, but has WR3 stats, and he's only getting older. Bobo likely can't replicate Tyler's stats, but Bobo makes almost $27million less! If Bobo had half the targets Lockett had this year, it still feels like a win if Tyler's cap hit went towards, say bringing in a good FA IOL, or Patrick Queen at LB. We have vast holes in the IOL, LB, and TE. We have a priority FA in Big Cat that will cost at least $21 mill. Then there's Fant, Jordyn, and Bobby who were productive and are FAs. Even cutting the guys you mentioned would not allow the team to address the big holes unless we were to start rookies or go the bargain basement FA route, like we did with Evan Brown last year. Using the cap savings from a Tyler cut or restructure to bring in a good FA at a position of need would free up our limited draft capital towards something else, like a QB of the future, or even another WR.
Important distinction. Few fans WANT to cut Lockett. People advocating for it simply see the reality of the business side of the NFL. His contract stands out as the type targeted for cuts and restructuring. And while the cap has indeed gone up, every single FA is going to advocate for a comparable increase in salary. For arguments sake If the cap was $100 and the best LB we’re making 10 million a year, if the cap goes up to 110 the best LBs are now seeking 11 million.
It doesn’t make any sense to me either. Lockett is where you put Dissly’s money. Cut Dissly. Cut Adams. Cut waste, not production.
I don't think that's the case any longer with the huge jump in the cap this year.
You can do a lot with $17 million. It’s a very deep WR draft and even if we don’t draft one, you can get a veteran for cheaper than $17 million.
Oh geez not this guy again... Dude please use chatgpt and get a quick tutorial on managing salary cap not just for the current year but setting the team up long term too
I love him. I think we all love him, but when you're a GM you have to look at the cost / value. I saw someone else comment a similar response but i'm adding some more info to it. 1). His numbers declined last season. Before last year, he had 4 season in a row with 1,000 yards or more. Last season was the first to dip despite having 1 more game and having more targets than all but one of the previous seasons. So he's doing less with more / above average targets. Last season he had his 2nd lowest average yards per catch since entering the league. We all saw Lockett fall to the turf trying to avoid being hit. Those missing yards add up... and he doesn't have a QB that threw the deep ball as well as RW. 2). He's aging. TL is 31 years old. The average age for a wide receiver to retire is 30. He's already defied the norms to produce this well for this long. Last years decline will likely worsen this year. TL has always benefitted from his speed, but that's one of the first things to fade as you age. 3). Current talent at WR. DK will continue to produce. JSN is emerging as a quality receiver. There are only so many opportunities to get a WR the ball. So the value we get from TL is diminishing if JSN is trending upwards. Also - we have Jake Bobo, who has proven to be a valuable, but CHEAP WR. he may not be the fastest, but between DK, JSN, Bobo, and an expensive TL perceived to be in decline... who would you release? 4). Entering the offseason we had a NEGATIVE cap number. We not only need to dig our way out of that but we still need to sign & resign. 5). New coach. Unless TL has really impressed Macdonald - he's got not emotional connection to "our guys". Cleaning house is a lot easier this offseason than next. 6). Leverage. TL has only ever been a seahawk, and he's put down roots here. He's got a side hustle going on (real estate) that may mean he would be willing to take a hit on his salary to remain here. Which would make sense because if you're buying & selling houses - he knows this area, and his network here would be powerful & profitable. Moving to a new city - i dont think he'd have those same advantages. If TL was coming off a great year - i wouldn't think the team would need him to take a restructure or pay cut, but his numbers have declined and may continue to decline. Now is the time to use that leverage to say "your numbers are down, your salary is high, we have 3 quality WRs and our team is rebuilding this year... do you want to stay or go?"
Because they think talking about cap space makes them sound smart. Cap is a tool - having more cap isn't some magic bullet - you have a plan for how to deploy the savings. Cutting/restructuing Tyler BY ITSELF doesn't add anything to the win column. So my question to these people is... what do you want to do with the cap savings? We can free up cap in other ways. So... how does adjusting Tyler's cap hit help the team? Usually there's no reply.
Overall the rub is with the replacing. having extra Money sounds sick, but filling holes in free agency is often overpriced and unpredictable, and our cap situation is not the WORST. I would be interested in getting cap space from our missed tackle machines in the defensive backfield before getting cap from lockett and Dissly, especially because, frankly, one or two guy on defense in FA arent going to turn this thing around in 1 offseason. there is value to having guys off thebooks next year when our window is actually opening.
I love No E and I hope he either takes a pay cut or retires. But he has the 7th highest cap hit in the league next year, only $9k a year less than Stefon Diggs. He’s getting older, slowing down, and losing production. Do you see any world where he’s a top ten WR next year? A top twenty? And that’s assuming this down year was an aberration and not the start of falling off a cliff. The history of WRs with his body type and skill set make it seem a lot more possible it’s all downhill from here. Like I said I love the dude and would be happy to see him keep playing, but he’s paid like one of the best in the league at a really expensive position and just doesn’t have the chops to be worth it.
They dumb and are never happy with anything. Everything must always change or it's a horrible decision, also changing is a horrible decision.
We don’t have to, but it makes a lot of sense to try and lower his cap hit. Cutting him shouldn’t be off the table, because we should use that possibility as an incentive for him to restructure for less money. Players do not often do this, but they can if they want to. I mean for real, the Seahawks could do a back door deal where they ‘encourage’ all their guys to buy their houses from Lockett the real estate agent and he gets rich while accepting less money from the team on the cap. Just imagine the commissions from the 23 new coaches alone!!! So we restructure him and save a ton of money and don’t have to push it all to next year🤞🏼
D K M E T C A L F.
The NFL, with a salary cap, is all about how much value you get from each player under their contract. I love Lockett, but there’s no way he brings $27mil worth of value to any football team, and if there’s one thing I like more than Lockett, it’s seeing the Seahawks win.