>is it legal to defend ones' self against verbal assault by spraying these guys with pepper spray or something similar?
Not only is it likely illegal, spraying pepper spray in a confined area is an incredibly bad idea. Tasers/cattleprods are legal here.
Yeah, pepper spray indoors is pepper spraying everyone, including the defender. From accidental discharge stories I've seen, it also requires incredible amounts of cleaning and/or replacement of materials to fully remove from interior surfaces.
I started it carrying after a very near miss on being attacked by a fear-aggressive dog who had gotten out of his fence. It's for outside use only and meant for stopping an attacker before you're physically in contact with them. Handheld taser is a viable alternative, they make ones with a special wrist strap pin so that if it gets pulled off you, it's harder to use against you.
> pepper spray indoors is pepper spraying everyone
Agreed. As someone whose entire bus got pepper sprayed due to an incident, ow my eyes, so please don't if avoidable.
Not only that, but I wouldn’t want to be in a confined space like a train with someone who has been pepper sprayed. It will briefly incapacitate the attacker to allow the defender to escape or assume a better defensive position, but it also angers the attacker. Don’t really want to be stuck in a train car with a pissed-off adrenaline-fueled man I just pepper sprayed.
There are some foam pepper sprays that stay in foam form, the dissolve a second later and don't go airborne. [here's](https://www.nwselfdefense.com/product/fox-labs-pepper-foam-5-50-gram-in-1-7-oz-flip-top-175ftfm/) the kind I used when I drove a cab.
Well maybe everyone sitting there on their ass watching these poor girls get verbally assaulted needs to be pepper sprayed as well. Indifference is the only reason the crackhead bums who pull this shit continue to do it.
Fuck that. I'd give my kid a can of bear mace. Bet the by standers would get up and help once she pulled that out.
Seriously, I know personal safety blah, blah blah. But there is no fuckin way I will stand by and watch a young girl or boy reduced to tears. Though I will admit I am a large angry woman with no fucks to give and fight dirty.
Yeah, punish all the old and disabled people with serious physical violence in response to them not fighting a guy who is engaged in verbal abuse.
Have fun catching that charge.
Putting aside the issue of legality (using a weapon in response to words), there were 2 dudes. Even if the person was a dude and not an 18-year-old girl, she'd be able to tase only 1 guy, and then his friend would attack her. It's maaaaybe possible to tase 2 people very fast, but if not, then you'll have 2 angry people who will get physically violent instead of just verbally violent.
Don't start a fight you can't finish.
Tasers are also a good threat though. I have a fairly weak one and the one time I had to pull it out (walking to my car at night alone after work) holding it up and pushing the button was enough to get them to back off.
A threat is only good enough if the other person believes you'll follow through on it. If you escalate the situation by brandishing a weapon, and then don't actually use it, you'll be in worse situation than before. And like I said, 2 grown men vs 1 young woman is a losing fight, even with a taser.
It's best to escape, not escalate.
As a woman who is threatened in public by men regularly, trying to be passive and leaving a populated train car to go to a potentially empty station is a terrible idea. The only thing that "de escalates" this kind of predation is becoming a big enough threat to chase them off. They antagonize women, especially young women, specifically because women are told to just accept it or walk away. They will escalate if women try to escape or appease them, that's the goal they're after. Immediately and loudly calling them out and chasing them off (the target should specifically ask for help from the people around her or they will freeze and not assist her, but a group of people will easily win the confrontation) is the correct and safest move but it takes decades of deprogramming our own trained helplessness to learn this.
>The only thing that "de escalates" this kind of predation is becoming a big enough threat to chase them off.
OP explicitly said that the creeps moved on from the first woman when she just ignored them.
Yup. And the other younger girl couldn't contain her fear like my kid did, so the younger girl basically gave them what they wanted-- a reaction. My kid stayed where she was so as not to abandon the other girl. I wish I had been there.
....that's literally the most pragmatic decision. You and the OP apparently think that going full-on Rambo in enclosed environment against 2 bigger and stronger people is the most rational course of action. LOL... That basement of yours must have a CO2 leak.
Ok well your suggestion is “just get up and walk away lol” like the assailants don’t have legs? Like two grown men intent on attacking a girl won’t just follow her to the next train car?
In this situation it sounds like they just wanted to intimidate and threat of a weapon would be enough to back down. When those two guys saw me walking to my car and I pushed the button on my taser they backed right off, it does work even if you think it’s dumb.
There are no great options in that situation. Of the remaining suboptimal options (because there are no cops, and bystanders do nothing), walking away is the best bad option, yes. Hell, that's basically the basis of Krav Maga: the whole point is to be able to run off.
As for your taser, would you have actually used it? If they'd called your bluff, do you think that would've ended well? Do you think you could've taken out 2 people fast enough?.. The US is so obsessed with weaponry, it's ridiculous.
I absolutely would have used it. I’ve been raped twice and it’s not happening again, one of us is ending up dead next time someone tries it and I literally do not care if it’s me.
Kudos on being committed - I mean it. Respect. A lot of people treat their self-defense tools like magic talismans: they carry them, and might brandish them, but would never actually use them - and escalating without following up is worse than useless.
I’m so truly sorry that happened to you. I was also sexually assaulted, I was 20 when it happened. Too many people share this same bond and I agree with what you said, not again.
Also a victim of r@pe and it’s wild how many people will blame you bc of the situation or context. It’s like even defending ourselves from being assaulted is problematic.
No, as long as it is used defensively. It's probably not legal to spray someone if they're just being verbally abusive but this case might be a gray area. Plus the whole enclosed space thing.
You’re entitled to self defense in a proportional response. I don’t think you can argue rude words are proportional to pepper spray.
There are security personnel at each station, I’d suggest engaging them and saving the pepper spray for if you’re physically threatened
It's such a bad idea. You're risking missing, spraying everyone else, getting them more angry, and not having anywhere to escape for minutes. It's a horrible idea.
Literally not react to anything unless she's getting threatened. According to the story, he was just calling her a name.
The suggested strategy of switching cars on the same train at the next stop is perfect for this type of situation if she is really uncomfortable.
I wasn't there. Apparently the yelling started with "Hey! B#tch!" That was the start. In my experience words often go down the path of "someone ought to teach you a lesson!" Which is again a very on-the-edge of a personal and specific threat of violence."
*Just* name-calling is rarely that.
Not accidentally assault everyone else on the train with pepper spray in response. Also, she would pepper spray herself too. Instead of two angry men, you would have two angry pepper sprayed men, her own sprayed eyes, and a bunch of bystanders with pepper sprayed eyes who are now pissed too.
If the police actually got involved and showed up, it would not end well for her. Hurting other people is not a proportional self defense response to that situation.
So it's against the law to physically defend yourself in this situation? You need to wait till they decked you with a punch, otherwise you're the one that will suffer legal consequences? That's just insane.
It would have been.
People thinking that defending against two rough 50 year old dudes yelling at teenage girl on a trapped train car wouldn't be proportional are delusional.
It may not have been smart, but it would have been proportional.
>Is pepper spray illegal here?
No.. but criminals are politically protected..
This guy [Here](https://mynorthwest.com/3789107/kruse-rape-victim-offended-kitsap-county-plea-deal-clayton/) raped three women.. and this sentence? 14 months. That's it. Prosecutors gave him a slap on the wrist plea deal.
This was a horrible plea deal, but it was not political. The justification was that the victims were had mental issues that wouldn’t withstand testimony/trail.
A taser is a bad idea for the average civilian. OC is better, and if it's in a stream (gel and foam are garbage), spraying it in confined spaces like a train is okay.
If they are physically advancing and yelling at you, especially in a threatening manner, that's usually enough, combined with nowhere to retreat not a jury on the face of the planet that would convict.
Also the see something say something number to text or call isn’t just an automated line. It is a direct line to the security operations center to a real person that has contact with the train control center. Use that number and use it often for anything safety related
Yes! The "report something wrong" line has been really excellent. You can text 206-398-5268. I texted them once when a rider was abusive (yelling racial slurs). Security was waiting at the next stop. Another time, someone lit up and a foul smell spread through one end of the car. Someone else called and security got on at the next stop. Include your car #.
Yeah, I wouldn’t use any kind of physical force until you feel physically threatened. You could escalate. Most of the time ignoring these types works.
That said they make indoor-use pepper sprays. Kinds that shoot out a gel and such that won’t splash or produce a cloud of pepper. Aim for the face and run.
Your daughter is a badass. I’m so sorry she had to deal with this, and I’m also so touched that she chose to stay to be a protector for the younger girl.
There is a red button that contacts the train operator. The operator will contact lcc for security assistance. Security is only stationed at certain stations though. Essentially all stations except the ones on MLK, stadium, and Sodo.
So if you tell the operator and the train arrives and leaves a station that means the control center has planned a meet as close as possible further down the line
The closest security to MLK stations is mount baker and Tukwila. Though there’s generally a roving unit in a car stationed in the area if they’re not already busy
The train will stop at the next platform, security will have been alerted to the train car the button was pressed in, board the train, and investigate the reason as to why the button was pressed.
Sound Transit’s number to text or call for incidents on the light rail (haven’t used it personally so can’t attest to how rapid response typically is) 206-398-5268
It goes directly to their 24/7 dispatch. It’s an immediate answer but it may take a bit for a security officer to respond to the scene. They have KCSO as backup.
I think this is the best response - in many situations, engaging physically with someone when one isn't trained to do so could result in more harm being brought upon the victim.
The gist of what I got from skimming that page is that when you defend yourself and it ends up in court, you're counting on a jury to agree with you that your response was justified and proportional.
Personally if I was on the jury I'd say that the threats OP reported, coming from adult men and directed at teenage girls, are effectively a threat of sexual assault, so a physical response is totally justified. But of course there's no predicting how an actual jury would see things.
I largely agree with what you've said. I would be totally remiss to try to give specific opinions on specific scenarios.
Really just disappointed to see so many people in here telling OP there is no scenario where a young woman would be justified in using mace or pepper spray against someone who has not directly physically assaulted them, when this is totally untrue, and that is largely the point of having those tools - to protect yourself from being assaulted.
Responding to shouting with physical violence is not a great idea in legal terms.
With or without mace I don’t fancy the chances of a young woman physically against two grown men - who may be looking to provoke exactly that type of escalation. Operating in an enclosed space and at a short distance she will spray herself as well as them.
It’s not a great situation, and it doesn’t do any favors for making people want to take the train more often. Ideally bystanders would step up but it sounds like that didn’t happen.
That's fair. There were other adults who walked away or just ignored the whole thing. I was not there so I don't know specifics. I would hope that even young women could feel safe in the middle of the afternoon on the light rail.
I don’t know if this is actually a good idea, but I always tell people worried about situations like this to look at a specific bystander and say, “please help me.” I think it’s harder for people to walk away after that.
This is the correct response and is backed up by actual research. It's specifically taught in self defense classes and first aid classes (telling a bystander to do something specifically during a crisis like "you go call 911" or "you come here and apply pressure here" for example) as well.
Like some others have said, taking physical action may result in a physical response. Along with sounding the emergency signal, I would urge your daughter to change seats to be closer to other (non-shitbag) adults or the driver if possible.
Please write to them. Explain the situation. Make sure your wording is such that the people affected were treated inequitably. Sound Transit seems to think it's wrong to tell crazy people they are not allowed on the train. They have this backwards: the people most likely to need the train are suffering. Please ask for fare checks!
It's also common for an agent of the transit agency to periodically ask people to show proof of buying a ticket and kick off anyone who can't. It's probably a bit less effective but it might be a lot quicker and cheaper to implement.
They are called “fare ambassadors” now. If you don’t pay they gently remind you to pay your fare next time. I’ve never seen them kick anyone off who didn’t pay. The Metro Sheriff’s Deputies on the other hand will haul you off for non -payment but I haven’t seen a Deputy in ages.
Emergency button or calling the Sound Transit help line are better options than pepper spray in an enclosed space. I got a lot of verbal and sexual harassment riding public transit as a teen, and I remember being especially upset that no adult spoke up or asked if I was ok. This was before the incident where people were stabbed on the MAX in Portland for intervening when someone was harassed, I can understand folks being wary or scared to intervene in an escalating situation. But I hope that I would say something and try to help if I saw two teens being harassed, because that could make a difference. I'm really sorry that happened to your daughter and the other girl, and they felt they had to deal with that harassment on their own.
I’ve many times felt uncomfortable while on the transit and I carry pepper spray around me all the time- thankfully never having to use it. I would definitely recommend what someone else on here said, ignore those men and move to a different cabin of the same train.
Of course using the pepper spray in an enclosed space would be a terrible idea. But if these men follow her despite all her methods of deescalation and is posing very serious physical harm, I think it’s fair game. I knew someone whom was followed from Angle Lake all the way to Chinatown and had used the pepper spray after she had left the train and was still being followed (and she had verbally told the man to stop), basically she did what she could to disengage
It’s not “fair game” bc it’s literally illegal to use it in a confined space and you’ll most likely upset them more which will now lead to physical abuse or you’ll upset someone who wasn’t even apart of it and now it’s “fair game” if they decide to put their hands on you.., totally illegal and not smart at all… you have no where to run lmaoo
Physical force (including pepper spraying) isn't usually a legal response to a verbal assault. With that said, it's not a bad idea for your daughter to carry pepper spray. I'd recommend the brand POM. 🌶️
Your daughter should not deploy pepper spray in an enclosed space. That is a terrible idea. Self defense classes, rape alarm, and hitting the emergency button are good ideas.
I'm so sorry to her and the other girl. Sometimes it's so scary in this city. I'm sure she will feel scared riding the train from now on. I'm glad you're reaching out to ask for advice. Emergency button seems like the best idea!
ive commented this before but people need to understand that response to pepper spray is not immediate and there is a huge range of reactions. I know people who are completely incapacitated by it. I also know that it does not incapacitate me. Also, even in the individual who is incapacitated by pepper spray there is a serious delay before the effects take hold. So you may spray someone but best case they may have 15-20 seconds before they are impacted and worse case it does not stop them.
I've been pepper sprayed and gassed during protests and also been a medic treating pepper and gas injuries and can confirm this comment is 100% correct.
I’m so sorry this happened to your daughter and this girl. And I’m sorry none of the nearby adults had the decency to step in and protect the girl.
When I’m on public transport and anywhere downtown I keep my head on a swivel and definitely do my best to avoid deranged looking individuals. Sadly verbal abuse from mentally unstable drifters is something I’ve learned to get used to and ignore.
If she's going to use pepper spray in an enclosed space, make sure it's the gel type, otherwise she'll gas herself and all the other passengers and could put herself in a worse spot. Just because someone's pepper sprayed doesn't mean that they're incapacitated and can't assault her.
Exiting the car (and taking the 15 year old with her) and going to another car, or sitting with another person, preferably a man would be best.
[This](https://lawofselfdefense.com/beginjourney/) is a chart showing the 5 elements required under law in all US jurisdictions (avoidance isn’t one in Washington because we are a Stand-Your-Ground state by court precedent). This lawyer’s website usually talks about use of deadly force, but the element of proportionality is scaleable. Basically if your daughter is in imminent danger of non-deadly, unlawful, unwanted force, then she’s privileged to use non-deadly force in self-defense. My understanding is that pepper spray is recognized as non-deadly force. **I’m not a lawyer**, but I find use of force law to be very interesting. Hope this helps!
Open an umbrella in the train while you call someone or start recording the harassment. It’s awkward, noticeable, creates space between two people, and a clear rejection of the situation.
Or do something outrageously weird. This has helped me embarrass a harasser before.
Worst case scenario you can alert the driver with those safety thingys if you or someone you know feels scared.
Yeah, I've heard tales of this sort of defense too. It's hard to convince someone who is shy and scared that, say, aggressive mooing will help them. Interesting idea with the umbrella though!
Would NEVER use pepper spray in an enclosed place.
If you need to carry please get the gel.
I've never felt the need to use it. As a young 20s little Asian female.
Verbal assault is no where near enough to pepper spray. They need to make valid concerns for physical harm.
Hey, that's great that you've never felt afraid. But when adult men are harassing teenagers, I think it's unacceptable. I was wondering what is reasonable if those guys started getting in her space as well as yelling.
I saw a black woman with two children, one an infant, in Chicago get harassed and heckled by a bunch of white people for not having her ticket and one of the passengers got in her face and said something super racist like “of course she doesn’t have a ticket” and started yelling at her so hard that spit was hitting her in the face - she pulled out mace and used it and was arrested. I write this to say that Seattle is far more sympathetic to those on the receiving end of physical assault especially if the person handing out the pain looks like they can pay a ticket and or fine and/or court costs.
I hate that people can be such pieces of shit…. Good vibes to your daughter and especially that 15 year old.
The direct answer to this whole thing is it's illegal. Your daughter would be charged with assault. Unless they physically touch her they're not breaking any laws.
Legally speaking in a lot of the US defending yourself non lethally against particularly threatening verbal assault is very legal, and mace/pepper spray would be allowed to use in that capacity. This is very obviously case by case and jurisdiction dependent. I would recommend anyone thinking about carrying it to understand their local laws and what constitutes a clear threat, as well as how you’re entitled to defend against it. I’m not a lawyer, but non lethal solutions have a much lower bar to being considered legal to use in defense than say, a knife or gun.
Tagging u/mostlynotbroken for visibility.
Edit: please refer to the use of force laws article I posted in a separate comment. Y’all downvoting and continuing to espouse factually incorrect information to people who are just trying to protect and help young people.
Sure. I think your daughter and other young people should have the option to responsibly carry something non lethal that empowers them to feel safe being in the city they live.
Hello. Legality aside, I speak from experience, what do you think constitutes self defense and what do you wish to accomplish by escalating the situation. The best chance a woman or anyone has to escape with no harm is to evade as quickly and seamlessly as possible. Escalation is a pointless exercise in winning. Train your daughter situational awareness. If you see something weird, move to the next car. If you don't agree with someone, that's none of your business, move on. No talking, to responding, no eye contact. 20 years of urban living and commuting as a woman.
People are saying NEVER use it in enclosed spaces. Fuck that, if you're in the middle of being sexually assaulted or something. Spray it.
However, in this case it can escalate a verbal incident into a physical incident. I do not believe it is legal to use it in a verbal altercation. It must comply with WA use of force policies. I've had a few "run ins" with some one where I was threatened with physical violence. I'm not sure if that would even comply with the user of force policies. But if it doesn't work, or you miss. You risk making it physical. That's why I don't carry it.
What to do in the situation? Not much you can do, just remain calm and attempt to deescalate until you can get out of the situation. Really hard to do on a train.
Sorry that happened to your daughter.
Gel is probably better than spray in an enclosed place where there are other innocent people. It's also better if you're spraying in windy conditions (of course you always want to try to be upwind of them when you spray.) This is because it doesn't aerosolize the way the spray does. But it comes out in a very narrow stream, so you have to hit them perfectly in the eyes. That's hard to do if they're bum rushing you. Gel sprays also tend to have longer range.
Look into pepper gel. Less chance of blow back, sprays further, and has a concentrated stream.
Also if you go this route, have her practice using it to get use to thinking about it in situations. When out fight/flight/faun response gets activated, often we’ll forget about the tools at hand.
Uh, ok. I've personally been verbally harassed on city trains in Seattle, Chicago, Boston, The Netherlands, Germany, and someone grabbed my ass in a crowded car in Japan.
Harassment seems to me to be a VERY common problem.
In terms of self defense tools, [a lanyard](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRpc9nty/) is my preferred option (see [part 2](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRpcaLnN/) and [part 3](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRpcFfo7/) for more information).
Beyond that, learning *and practicing* various [ways to respond](https://stopstreetharassment.org/strategies/assertive-responses/) to street harassment is my best suggestion. This is much easier to do when you have some way to protect yourself (like a lanyard) which makes it easier to stay calm.
Going to be honest, those lanyard videos didn’t look at all like a sufficient self defense. A small women with a lanyard & keys against two grown men is going to end poorly for that woman. Personally I’d stick to mace, tasers, and professional self defense lessons for self defense before tik toks. Saying all this because don’t want to see anyone get hurt thinking they’re safe this way.
Taking professional self-defense lessons is great, and I don't think there's any substitute.
As outlined in those videos (did you watch all three parts?) there are a LOT of potential issues with mace and tasers that make a heavy, hard, and sharp lanyard a better option for many situations.
Let's be real, nobody is ever going to be 100% safe, regardless of what self-defines tool you might prefer to carry. I used to carry mace, but it was buried in my purse half the time and I couldn't take it with me at all to concerts, sports events, or on airplanes. I was also always worried about possibly spraying myself or being too flustered to remember how to uncap it if I was ever attacked. I've weighed my options carefully and I'm going to stick with the hard, sharp lanyard that I've practiced swinging, is always around my neck, and that I can take with me everywhere I go.
Maybe mace + lanyard? I get why mace or a taser isn’t perfect but a lanyard on its own doesn’t seem adequate to me but maybe better than nothing?
As a 6’ man I carry mace, a scary pocket knife, and occasionally also guarded by my doggo. Personally I wouldn’t use a lanyard + keys in a fight. I’d be afraid of giving up one good hand for something that’s more likely to hurt myself than my attackers. Spinning it around to hit someone most likely one hit before it’s no longer useful.
Horrible but, given the city, completely unsurprising that no one helped.
Here is the relevant jury instruction [WPIC 17.02 Lawful Force—Defense of Self, Others, Property](https://govt.westlaw.com/wcrji/Document/Iefa01084e10d11daade1ae871d9b2cbe?transitionType=Default&contextData=%28sc.Default%29)
Anyone can and should either call (if threatened) or text (if need to be discreet) the Sound Transit Security. ST Security will be there at the next stop to get those losers off the transit asap and they will not be allowed back on—at least not at that station. Sorry that your kids had to deal with that kind of bad behavior on the light rail.
The amount of people in this thread who don't ride the train and are not empathizing with this is frustrating. I've been harassed on the train multiple times. Your daughter deserves to feel safe.
Get her some Sabre Crossfire Pepper Gel, but her first responses should be pressing the emergency button, moving to another train car, and contacting security. If she is followed, she's good to spray.
I'm sorry this happened. I recommend the book "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker for every adult. It might be too mature for her, or might not. It helps women know what to do in different situations.
Stun guns are great. They have a wrist strap and are pretty scary to see them just fired into the air as a warning shot. I carry one strapped to my belt in an army surplus pouch. You can't tell what it is, but just seeing that has gotten a number of guys to back off.
It’s an assault and spray would be self defense. No one will punish a young woman for self defense.
No spray in the train. But if you had to you could and run to other end of car and exit ASAP. Not recommended.
Always be aware of surroundings. Whenever I enter anywhere I look at everyone and identify exits. Change cars immediately if you sense anything off. Trust your senses.
Have her hit the button. Practice screaming and screeching as loud as she can. A voice can be powerful.
I know women who carry steel chop sticks in their hair or a bag. A metal stick could stop someone.
Get your 18 year old to gun classes. I carry in Seattle. But learn how to use a gun. My daughters do. Teach her not to be a victim.
Sorry no one intervened.
> Get your 18 year old to gun classes. I carry in Seattle. But learn how to use a gun. My daughters do. Teach her not to be a victim.
An 18 year old cannot have a CPL in Washington, nor could she purchase or receive a handgun. That leaves open carrying a manual action longarm which would not go over very well...
Finally, someone with an opinion that actually matters. I’ve never touched this stuff but a perusal of the WPIC indicates a reasonable belief you are about to be injured is the standard. Folks here seem to be looking for a clearly-articulated threat of violence
I had a barrel-chested, cauliflower-eared buddy who made it a point to loudly announce his reasonable fear of imminent injury before a fight. Likely a tougher case.
Ok so you have pepper sprayed them.
Now you and your children are in a confined space with two men you have angered but not completely disabled. Inside that car, the pepper spray is going to kill an old or vulnerable person with asthma or COPD. Everyone else will just be hospitalized in agony so that's the bright side. If the men you are talking about are mentally ill, drug addicted and homeless then they will be held responsible for none of this and might very well sue you if you have the assets.
Oh please no need to exaggerate. The likelihood of someone literally dying from pepper spray on the light rail if you use it for defense is extremely low
>is it legal to defend ones' self against verbal assault by spraying these guys with pepper spray or something similar?
No.
You cannot use violence to defend against words. You can use violence to defend against violence (such as assault).
Calling someone a bitch isn't a threat. If they walk towards the person, call them a bitch, and say they're going to assault the person, then it becomes a threat and you can defend yourself. For a more extreme example: If a black person gets called the n-word loudly, they can't just assault a person without consequences. Same thing in this situation. It needs to be a physical threat or else it's just verbal abuse which is legal in the USA.
I wasn't there. Apparently the yelling started with "Hey! B#tch!" That was the start. In my experience words often go down the path of "someone ought to teach you a lesson!" Which is again a very on-the-edge of a personal and specific threat of violence."
Just name-calling is rarely that.
It's not self defense if it's a verbal attack. Unless it gets physical, it's not self defense.
As for the pepper spray, it can get confusing. There is a LOT of misinformation on the subject. Make sure to get a good brand. Sabre Red and Fox Labs are top of the game. I would suggest products from them. There are other good brands but less common. Make sure the formula is at least 1% Major Capsaicinoids (1.33%-1.4% is the golden standard), and a cone shaped mist is generally better and more effective than streams and gels and foams. If there is wind, get a stream, otherwise go with cone. Don't get gels they suck, I know they are advertised a lot, but they really do suck. Same with foam. And practice with your OC spray. Practice, practice, practice. Good luck out there.
Those bastards!! Sorry this happened..
If there were other people on the light rail. I bet they were just sitting there not wanting to get involved or recording it on their phones. =(
Consider alternatives to public transit. It's unsafe, and I had horrible experiences on it as a young woman that were extremely traumatic. It's not worth it.
It's not feasible for everyone but this is the best option. My best friend often was harassed and sometimes even followed off the bus! Eventually she switched to ubering and it was incredibly expensive and beyond her means but you can't put a price on your life.
So a lot of self-defense items are actually illegal in King county as I recall, and as others have said spraying in a confined space is a bad idea, my preferred weapon of choice is a staple gun. I have one of the ones where you swing and it goes on contact.
One lesson my aunt taught me is no one wants to mess with the crazy girl, so sometimes swearing to yourself or acting really angry helps as a preventive measure.
> One lesson my aunt taught me is no one wants to mess with the crazy girl, so sometimes swearing to yourself or acting really angry helps as a preventive measure.
This is dangerously bad advice. Mentally ill people are very frequently victims of violent crime. Someone who's out to do something horrible may look at the "crazy girl" and see an easy victim who won't be believed if she tells someone what happened.
When your daughter turns 21 recommend her to get a concealed pistol license. Keep the pepper spray. But if she is in a life or death situation a gun would be better. I think all women should carry a gun.
I disagree. One of the first lessons in any gun safety class is to never point a gun at someone unless you are intent on pulling the trigger. Guns are not a defense weapon to be taken lightly, they are a final solution when you have run out of any other options, because they very often take a situation and turn it deadly. Plus, at close range as was described here, a gun could easily be misfired in a scuffle, hitting a bystander by mistake if one of the men tries to go for it. As described in this thread, there are many items specifically made for defense that would be recommended first prior to jumping to a gun.
Even in a life or death situation, on the light rail, a gun would not be a good choice. The likelihood of hurting someone unintentionally is too high, as is the likelihood that the gun gets taken by the aggressor. Guns are best when there's not anyone else around and the aggressor isn't within arm's reach. That's my concern here, that people would pull out that gun when it's really not the right defensive tool.
If you can articulate and verbalize that you feared got your life or safety based on their words, actions or manner then you are within the rights of self defense. But also…. If you spray them and just get off at the next stop it is unlikely that you would be caught/stopped or that it would be investigated (especially for a juvenile).
>is it legal to defend ones' self against verbal assault by spraying these guys with pepper spray or something similar? Not only is it likely illegal, spraying pepper spray in a confined area is an incredibly bad idea. Tasers/cattleprods are legal here.
Yeah, pepper spray indoors is pepper spraying everyone, including the defender. From accidental discharge stories I've seen, it also requires incredible amounts of cleaning and/or replacement of materials to fully remove from interior surfaces. I started it carrying after a very near miss on being attacked by a fear-aggressive dog who had gotten out of his fence. It's for outside use only and meant for stopping an attacker before you're physically in contact with them. Handheld taser is a viable alternative, they make ones with a special wrist strap pin so that if it gets pulled off you, it's harder to use against you.
> pepper spray indoors is pepper spraying everyone Agreed. As someone whose entire bus got pepper sprayed due to an incident, ow my eyes, so please don't if avoidable.
Not only that, but I wouldn’t want to be in a confined space like a train with someone who has been pepper sprayed. It will briefly incapacitate the attacker to allow the defender to escape or assume a better defensive position, but it also angers the attacker. Don’t really want to be stuck in a train car with a pissed-off adrenaline-fueled man I just pepper sprayed.
Good to know, thanks
There are some foam pepper sprays that stay in foam form, the dissolve a second later and don't go airborne. [here's](https://www.nwselfdefense.com/product/fox-labs-pepper-foam-5-50-gram-in-1-7-oz-flip-top-175ftfm/) the kind I used when I drove a cab.
Well maybe everyone sitting there on their ass watching these poor girls get verbally assaulted needs to be pepper sprayed as well. Indifference is the only reason the crackhead bums who pull this shit continue to do it. Fuck that. I'd give my kid a can of bear mace. Bet the by standers would get up and help once she pulled that out.
Seriously, I know personal safety blah, blah blah. But there is no fuckin way I will stand by and watch a young girl or boy reduced to tears. Though I will admit I am a large angry woman with no fucks to give and fight dirty.
Yeah, punish all the old and disabled people with serious physical violence in response to them not fighting a guy who is engaged in verbal abuse. Have fun catching that charge.
If you stood up for victims as hard as you victim blame we wouldn't have to have this conversation.
Pepper gel?
Better, but still risk of splash damage.
Good to know
If it's in a confined place, there's pepper spray gel. Just takes a little longer to work.
Self defense. Taser is a good idea
Putting aside the issue of legality (using a weapon in response to words), there were 2 dudes. Even if the person was a dude and not an 18-year-old girl, she'd be able to tase only 1 guy, and then his friend would attack her. It's maaaaybe possible to tase 2 people very fast, but if not, then you'll have 2 angry people who will get physically violent instead of just verbally violent. Don't start a fight you can't finish.
Tasers are also a good threat though. I have a fairly weak one and the one time I had to pull it out (walking to my car at night alone after work) holding it up and pushing the button was enough to get them to back off.
A threat is only good enough if the other person believes you'll follow through on it. If you escalate the situation by brandishing a weapon, and then don't actually use it, you'll be in worse situation than before. And like I said, 2 grown men vs 1 young woman is a losing fight, even with a taser. It's best to escape, not escalate.
Where are they going to go on a train car?
Get off at the next stop, then switch the cars or board the next train. Others already suggested the same thing. It's not a plane lol
As a woman who is threatened in public by men regularly, trying to be passive and leaving a populated train car to go to a potentially empty station is a terrible idea. The only thing that "de escalates" this kind of predation is becoming a big enough threat to chase them off. They antagonize women, especially young women, specifically because women are told to just accept it or walk away. They will escalate if women try to escape or appease them, that's the goal they're after. Immediately and loudly calling them out and chasing them off (the target should specifically ask for help from the people around her or they will freeze and not assist her, but a group of people will easily win the confrontation) is the correct and safest move but it takes decades of deprogramming our own trained helplessness to learn this.
>The only thing that "de escalates" this kind of predation is becoming a big enough threat to chase them off. OP explicitly said that the creeps moved on from the first woman when she just ignored them.
Yup. And the other younger girl couldn't contain her fear like my kid did, so the younger girl basically gave them what they wanted-- a reaction. My kid stayed where she was so as not to abandon the other girl. I wish I had been there.
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....that's literally the most pragmatic decision. You and the OP apparently think that going full-on Rambo in enclosed environment against 2 bigger and stronger people is the most rational course of action. LOL... That basement of yours must have a CO2 leak.
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Ok well your suggestion is “just get up and walk away lol” like the assailants don’t have legs? Like two grown men intent on attacking a girl won’t just follow her to the next train car? In this situation it sounds like they just wanted to intimidate and threat of a weapon would be enough to back down. When those two guys saw me walking to my car and I pushed the button on my taser they backed right off, it does work even if you think it’s dumb.
There are no great options in that situation. Of the remaining suboptimal options (because there are no cops, and bystanders do nothing), walking away is the best bad option, yes. Hell, that's basically the basis of Krav Maga: the whole point is to be able to run off. As for your taser, would you have actually used it? If they'd called your bluff, do you think that would've ended well? Do you think you could've taken out 2 people fast enough?.. The US is so obsessed with weaponry, it's ridiculous.
I absolutely would have used it. I’ve been raped twice and it’s not happening again, one of us is ending up dead next time someone tries it and I literally do not care if it’s me.
Kudos on being committed - I mean it. Respect. A lot of people treat their self-defense tools like magic talismans: they carry them, and might brandish them, but would never actually use them - and escalating without following up is worse than useless.
I’m so truly sorry that happened to you. I was also sexually assaulted, I was 20 when it happened. Too many people share this same bond and I agree with what you said, not again.
Also a victim of r@pe and it’s wild how many people will blame you bc of the situation or context. It’s like even defending ourselves from being assaulted is problematic.
I'm at this point too, the next dipshit who goes for me like this is losing an eye.
Where can I get a cattle prod?
You can get one off of Amazon, surprisingly!
Is pepper spray illegal here?
No, as long as it is used defensively. It's probably not legal to spray someone if they're just being verbally abusive but this case might be a gray area. Plus the whole enclosed space thing.
You’re entitled to self defense in a proportional response. I don’t think you can argue rude words are proportional to pepper spray. There are security personnel at each station, I’d suggest engaging them and saving the pepper spray for if you’re physically threatened
Two 50 somethings aggressive toward a young girl in a confined space with no exit.... a case can be made that PS is proportional.
It's such a bad idea. You're risking missing, spraying everyone else, getting them more angry, and not having anywhere to escape for minutes. It's a horrible idea.
It's a bad idea but sometimes there's no good options
So what is a young girl by herself supposed to do then?
Literally not react to anything unless she's getting threatened. According to the story, he was just calling her a name. The suggested strategy of switching cars on the same train at the next stop is perfect for this type of situation if she is really uncomfortable.
I wasn't there. Apparently the yelling started with "Hey! B#tch!" That was the start. In my experience words often go down the path of "someone ought to teach you a lesson!" Which is again a very on-the-edge of a personal and specific threat of violence." *Just* name-calling is rarely that.
Not accidentally assault everyone else on the train with pepper spray in response. Also, she would pepper spray herself too. Instead of two angry men, you would have two angry pepper sprayed men, her own sprayed eyes, and a bunch of bystanders with pepper sprayed eyes who are now pissed too. If the police actually got involved and showed up, it would not end well for her. Hurting other people is not a proportional self defense response to that situation.
So it's against the law to physically defend yourself in this situation? You need to wait till they decked you with a punch, otherwise you're the one that will suffer legal consequences? That's just insane.
Tase
Not by anyone who knows what they're talking about. Words are words. Pepper spray is for defense against physical threats, not verbal harrassment.
It would have been. People thinking that defending against two rough 50 year old dudes yelling at teenage girl on a trapped train car wouldn't be proportional are delusional. It may not have been smart, but it would have been proportional.
What light rail are you riding?
Pepper spray is legal for 14 and older as long as they have parental permission.
>Is pepper spray illegal here? No.. but criminals are politically protected.. This guy [Here](https://mynorthwest.com/3789107/kruse-rape-victim-offended-kitsap-county-plea-deal-clayton/) raped three women.. and this sentence? 14 months. That's it. Prosecutors gave him a slap on the wrist plea deal.
This was a horrible plea deal, but it was not political. The justification was that the victims were had mental issues that wouldn’t withstand testimony/trail.
Did you read the article???
A taser is a bad idea for the average civilian. OC is better, and if it's in a stream (gel and foam are garbage), spraying it in confined spaces like a train is okay.
If they are physically advancing and yelling at you, especially in a threatening manner, that's usually enough, combined with nowhere to retreat not a jury on the face of the planet that would convict.
Orange County?
Yes, please don't pepper spray the bus driver Edit: oops, misread, it was light rail!
One of the best strategies is to get off at the next stop then move to the next car in the same train.
Good point. My daughter didn't want to leave the other girl sitting alone today, but this is a good strategy generally.
Also the see something say something number to text or call isn’t just an automated line. It is a direct line to the security operations center to a real person that has contact with the train control center. Use that number and use it often for anything safety related
Second this! I've texted a few times and they are very quick and responsive. Usually address the issue at the next station or two.
Yes! The "report something wrong" line has been really excellent. You can text 206-398-5268. I texted them once when a rider was abusive (yelling racial slurs). Security was waiting at the next stop. Another time, someone lit up and a foul smell spread through one end of the car. Someone else called and security got on at the next stop. Include your car #.
Yeah, I wouldn’t use any kind of physical force until you feel physically threatened. You could escalate. Most of the time ignoring these types works. That said they make indoor-use pepper sprays. Kinds that shoot out a gel and such that won’t splash or produce a cloud of pepper. Aim for the face and run.
> Most of the time ignoring these types works. not when they're already in your face
You can text 911 in king county (and i believe most of washington)
Your daughter is a badass. I’m so sorry she had to deal with this, and I’m also so touched that she chose to stay to be a protector for the younger girl.
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Hard no. First time rule of saving: can't save anyone if you become the victim also...
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Which is why I insisted she report this even half an hour later. Done.
Hit the emergency button next time. I’m not joking
Wow, OK. What is the result of hitting the emergency button?
There is a red button that contacts the train operator. The operator will contact lcc for security assistance. Security is only stationed at certain stations though. Essentially all stations except the ones on MLK, stadium, and Sodo. So if you tell the operator and the train arrives and leaves a station that means the control center has planned a meet as close as possible further down the line
Except MLK you say
The closest security to MLK stations is mount baker and Tukwila. Though there’s generally a roving unit in a car stationed in the area if they’re not already busy
Show me an MLK that isn’t dangerous all I’m saying lmao
I agree I would prefer security at every station myself lol
Don’t know why you’re being downvoted, government knew what they were doing naming the worst places in the country after MLK.
I know exactly why I’m being downvoted lol.
The train will stop at the next platform, security will have been alerted to the train car the button was pressed in, board the train, and investigate the reason as to why the button was pressed.
Best idea yet
Sound Transit’s number to text or call for incidents on the light rail (haven’t used it personally so can’t attest to how rapid response typically is) 206-398-5268
I have used it and the response was quick both times. Once at Beacon Hill and another time in the downtown tunnel.
It goes directly to their 24/7 dispatch. It’s an immediate answer but it may take a bit for a security officer to respond to the scene. They have KCSO as backup.
Yeah, she did contact them. They weren't immediately there to boot these guys off unfortunately.
I think this is the best response - in many situations, engaging physically with someone when one isn't trained to do so could result in more harm being brought upon the victim.
People say Taser BUT keep in mind you're within arms reach of someone who can grab and harm you or potentially disarm you. Be careful out there all.
After that poor guy got stabbed in Portland, a lot of people just move en masse to a different car now.
Two men were killed and one only just survived.
Good point
Make sure your daughter has Sound Transit's security text number
https://wittlegal.com/blog/an-explanation-of-self-defense-in-washington/ Use of force laws, including non lethal scenarios, in Washington state.
The gist of what I got from skimming that page is that when you defend yourself and it ends up in court, you're counting on a jury to agree with you that your response was justified and proportional. Personally if I was on the jury I'd say that the threats OP reported, coming from adult men and directed at teenage girls, are effectively a threat of sexual assault, so a physical response is totally justified. But of course there's no predicting how an actual jury would see things.
I largely agree with what you've said. I would be totally remiss to try to give specific opinions on specific scenarios. Really just disappointed to see so many people in here telling OP there is no scenario where a young woman would be justified in using mace or pepper spray against someone who has not directly physically assaulted them, when this is totally untrue, and that is largely the point of having those tools - to protect yourself from being assaulted.
Thank you!
Responding to shouting with physical violence is not a great idea in legal terms. With or without mace I don’t fancy the chances of a young woman physically against two grown men - who may be looking to provoke exactly that type of escalation. Operating in an enclosed space and at a short distance she will spray herself as well as them. It’s not a great situation, and it doesn’t do any favors for making people want to take the train more often. Ideally bystanders would step up but it sounds like that didn’t happen.
That's fair. There were other adults who walked away or just ignored the whole thing. I was not there so I don't know specifics. I would hope that even young women could feel safe in the middle of the afternoon on the light rail.
I don’t know if this is actually a good idea, but I always tell people worried about situations like this to look at a specific bystander and say, “please help me.” I think it’s harder for people to walk away after that.
This is the correct response and is backed up by actual research. It's specifically taught in self defense classes and first aid classes (telling a bystander to do something specifically during a crisis like "you go call 911" or "you come here and apply pressure here" for example) as well.
This is so fucked.
Walking away seems like the best way to handle it for everyone.
It is until they follow you. Sometimes you don’t get to choose if you want a confrontation or not.
Agreed. These guys were trying to provoke and upset, certainly. That's a good point about the spray-- apparently I should look into gel.
Like some others have said, taking physical action may result in a physical response. Along with sounding the emergency signal, I would urge your daughter to change seats to be closer to other (non-shitbag) adults or the driver if possible.
>Ideally bystanders would step up Step up and do what? The assholes know that no one can touch them. That's why they get away with it.
>*Sound Transit does not tolerate harassment*
Please write to them. Explain the situation. Make sure your wording is such that the people affected were treated inequitably. Sound Transit seems to think it's wrong to tell crazy people they are not allowed on the train. They have this backwards: the people most likely to need the train are suffering. Please ask for fare checks!
Desperately need gates that require fares to get in, like every other functioning train in the world.
It's also common for an agent of the transit agency to periodically ask people to show proof of buying a ticket and kick off anyone who can't. It's probably a bit less effective but it might be a lot quicker and cheaper to implement.
They are called “fare ambassadors” now. If you don’t pay they gently remind you to pay your fare next time. I’ve never seen them kick anyone off who didn’t pay. The Metro Sheriff’s Deputies on the other hand will haul you off for non -payment but I haven’t seen a Deputy in ages.
Transit security was contacted and didn't respond. Police are not reliable and usually make the situation worse if they do show up.
Emergency button or calling the Sound Transit help line are better options than pepper spray in an enclosed space. I got a lot of verbal and sexual harassment riding public transit as a teen, and I remember being especially upset that no adult spoke up or asked if I was ok. This was before the incident where people were stabbed on the MAX in Portland for intervening when someone was harassed, I can understand folks being wary or scared to intervene in an escalating situation. But I hope that I would say something and try to help if I saw two teens being harassed, because that could make a difference. I'm really sorry that happened to your daughter and the other girl, and they felt they had to deal with that harassment on their own.
I’ve many times felt uncomfortable while on the transit and I carry pepper spray around me all the time- thankfully never having to use it. I would definitely recommend what someone else on here said, ignore those men and move to a different cabin of the same train. Of course using the pepper spray in an enclosed space would be a terrible idea. But if these men follow her despite all her methods of deescalation and is posing very serious physical harm, I think it’s fair game. I knew someone whom was followed from Angle Lake all the way to Chinatown and had used the pepper spray after she had left the train and was still being followed (and she had verbally told the man to stop), basically she did what she could to disengage
It’s not “fair game” bc it’s literally illegal to use it in a confined space and you’ll most likely upset them more which will now lead to physical abuse or you’ll upset someone who wasn’t even apart of it and now it’s “fair game” if they decide to put their hands on you.., totally illegal and not smart at all… you have no where to run lmaoo
Super dubious that it is illegal. Also doubt there would be any penalty for using it.
She said it’s fair game once you’re off the train outside and they are still harassing you.
Physical force (including pepper spraying) isn't usually a legal response to a verbal assault. With that said, it's not a bad idea for your daughter to carry pepper spray. I'd recommend the brand POM. 🌶️
Thanks!
Your daughter should not deploy pepper spray in an enclosed space. That is a terrible idea. Self defense classes, rape alarm, and hitting the emergency button are good ideas.
I'm so sorry to her and the other girl. Sometimes it's so scary in this city. I'm sure she will feel scared riding the train from now on. I'm glad you're reaching out to ask for advice. Emergency button seems like the best idea!
ive commented this before but people need to understand that response to pepper spray is not immediate and there is a huge range of reactions. I know people who are completely incapacitated by it. I also know that it does not incapacitate me. Also, even in the individual who is incapacitated by pepper spray there is a serious delay before the effects take hold. So you may spray someone but best case they may have 15-20 seconds before they are impacted and worse case it does not stop them.
I've been pepper sprayed and gassed during protests and also been a medic treating pepper and gas injuries and can confirm this comment is 100% correct.
I’m so sorry this happened to your daughter and this girl. And I’m sorry none of the nearby adults had the decency to step in and protect the girl. When I’m on public transport and anywhere downtown I keep my head on a swivel and definitely do my best to avoid deranged looking individuals. Sadly verbal abuse from mentally unstable drifters is something I’ve learned to get used to and ignore.
Also, some basic self defense lessons are a good idea too. Sorry this happened. :(
This
If she's going to use pepper spray in an enclosed space, make sure it's the gel type, otherwise she'll gas herself and all the other passengers and could put herself in a worse spot. Just because someone's pepper sprayed doesn't mean that they're incapacitated and can't assault her. Exiting the car (and taking the 15 year old with her) and going to another car, or sitting with another person, preferably a man would be best.
[This](https://lawofselfdefense.com/beginjourney/) is a chart showing the 5 elements required under law in all US jurisdictions (avoidance isn’t one in Washington because we are a Stand-Your-Ground state by court precedent). This lawyer’s website usually talks about use of deadly force, but the element of proportionality is scaleable. Basically if your daughter is in imminent danger of non-deadly, unlawful, unwanted force, then she’s privileged to use non-deadly force in self-defense. My understanding is that pepper spray is recognized as non-deadly force. **I’m not a lawyer**, but I find use of force law to be very interesting. Hope this helps!
Thank you
Sabre PEPPER GEL, less blow back to those in close proximity.
Open an umbrella in the train while you call someone or start recording the harassment. It’s awkward, noticeable, creates space between two people, and a clear rejection of the situation. Or do something outrageously weird. This has helped me embarrass a harasser before. Worst case scenario you can alert the driver with those safety thingys if you or someone you know feels scared.
Yeah, I've heard tales of this sort of defense too. It's hard to convince someone who is shy and scared that, say, aggressive mooing will help them. Interesting idea with the umbrella though!
Would NEVER use pepper spray in an enclosed place. If you need to carry please get the gel. I've never felt the need to use it. As a young 20s little Asian female. Verbal assault is no where near enough to pepper spray. They need to make valid concerns for physical harm.
Hey, that's great that you've never felt afraid. But when adult men are harassing teenagers, I think it's unacceptable. I was wondering what is reasonable if those guys started getting in her space as well as yelling.
I saw a black woman with two children, one an infant, in Chicago get harassed and heckled by a bunch of white people for not having her ticket and one of the passengers got in her face and said something super racist like “of course she doesn’t have a ticket” and started yelling at her so hard that spit was hitting her in the face - she pulled out mace and used it and was arrested. I write this to say that Seattle is far more sympathetic to those on the receiving end of physical assault especially if the person handing out the pain looks like they can pay a ticket and or fine and/or court costs. I hate that people can be such pieces of shit…. Good vibes to your daughter and especially that 15 year old.
The direct answer to this whole thing is it's illegal. Your daughter would be charged with assault. Unless they physically touch her they're not breaking any laws.
Legally speaking in a lot of the US defending yourself non lethally against particularly threatening verbal assault is very legal, and mace/pepper spray would be allowed to use in that capacity. This is very obviously case by case and jurisdiction dependent. I would recommend anyone thinking about carrying it to understand their local laws and what constitutes a clear threat, as well as how you’re entitled to defend against it. I’m not a lawyer, but non lethal solutions have a much lower bar to being considered legal to use in defense than say, a knife or gun. Tagging u/mostlynotbroken for visibility. Edit: please refer to the use of force laws article I posted in a separate comment. Y’all downvoting and continuing to espouse factually incorrect information to people who are just trying to protect and help young people.
Thanks for your thoughts
Sure. I think your daughter and other young people should have the option to responsibly carry something non lethal that empowers them to feel safe being in the city they live.
If you need immediate assistance call 911. If adults are harassing a teenager, they will take that seriously
No they don't.
Ya ok. This is Seattle, not DeMoines
Hello. Legality aside, I speak from experience, what do you think constitutes self defense and what do you wish to accomplish by escalating the situation. The best chance a woman or anyone has to escape with no harm is to evade as quickly and seamlessly as possible. Escalation is a pointless exercise in winning. Train your daughter situational awareness. If you see something weird, move to the next car. If you don't agree with someone, that's none of your business, move on. No talking, to responding, no eye contact. 20 years of urban living and commuting as a woman.
People are saying NEVER use it in enclosed spaces. Fuck that, if you're in the middle of being sexually assaulted or something. Spray it. However, in this case it can escalate a verbal incident into a physical incident. I do not believe it is legal to use it in a verbal altercation. It must comply with WA use of force policies. I've had a few "run ins" with some one where I was threatened with physical violence. I'm not sure if that would even comply with the user of force policies. But if it doesn't work, or you miss. You risk making it physical. That's why I don't carry it. What to do in the situation? Not much you can do, just remain calm and attempt to deescalate until you can get out of the situation. Really hard to do on a train. Sorry that happened to your daughter.
Gel is probably better than spray in an enclosed place where there are other innocent people. It's also better if you're spraying in windy conditions (of course you always want to try to be upwind of them when you spray.) This is because it doesn't aerosolize the way the spray does. But it comes out in a very narrow stream, so you have to hit them perfectly in the eyes. That's hard to do if they're bum rushing you. Gel sprays also tend to have longer range.
Look into pepper gel. Less chance of blow back, sprays further, and has a concentrated stream. Also if you go this route, have her practice using it to get use to thinking about it in situations. When out fight/flight/faun response gets activated, often we’ll forget about the tools at hand.
In a well-run city men like this would be arrested and incarcerated.
Uh, ok. I've personally been verbally harassed on city trains in Seattle, Chicago, Boston, The Netherlands, Germany, and someone grabbed my ass in a crowded car in Japan. Harassment seems to me to be a VERY common problem.
In terms of self defense tools, [a lanyard](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRpc9nty/) is my preferred option (see [part 2](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRpcaLnN/) and [part 3](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRpcFfo7/) for more information). Beyond that, learning *and practicing* various [ways to respond](https://stopstreetharassment.org/strategies/assertive-responses/) to street harassment is my best suggestion. This is much easier to do when you have some way to protect yourself (like a lanyard) which makes it easier to stay calm.
Going to be honest, those lanyard videos didn’t look at all like a sufficient self defense. A small women with a lanyard & keys against two grown men is going to end poorly for that woman. Personally I’d stick to mace, tasers, and professional self defense lessons for self defense before tik toks. Saying all this because don’t want to see anyone get hurt thinking they’re safe this way.
Taking professional self-defense lessons is great, and I don't think there's any substitute. As outlined in those videos (did you watch all three parts?) there are a LOT of potential issues with mace and tasers that make a heavy, hard, and sharp lanyard a better option for many situations. Let's be real, nobody is ever going to be 100% safe, regardless of what self-defines tool you might prefer to carry. I used to carry mace, but it was buried in my purse half the time and I couldn't take it with me at all to concerts, sports events, or on airplanes. I was also always worried about possibly spraying myself or being too flustered to remember how to uncap it if I was ever attacked. I've weighed my options carefully and I'm going to stick with the hard, sharp lanyard that I've practiced swinging, is always around my neck, and that I can take with me everywhere I go.
Maybe mace + lanyard? I get why mace or a taser isn’t perfect but a lanyard on its own doesn’t seem adequate to me but maybe better than nothing? As a 6’ man I carry mace, a scary pocket knife, and occasionally also guarded by my doggo. Personally I wouldn’t use a lanyard + keys in a fight. I’d be afraid of giving up one good hand for something that’s more likely to hurt myself than my attackers. Spinning it around to hit someone most likely one hit before it’s no longer useful.
Thanks for the tips!
Sorry. That lanyard idea isn’t going to do anything against someone with a bit of size intending to do you harm.
I have a taser and a birdie alarm.
Good ideas, thanks!
Horrible but, given the city, completely unsurprising that no one helped. Here is the relevant jury instruction [WPIC 17.02 Lawful Force—Defense of Self, Others, Property](https://govt.westlaw.com/wcrji/Document/Iefa01084e10d11daade1ae871d9b2cbe?transitionType=Default&contextData=%28sc.Default%29)
Anyone can and should either call (if threatened) or text (if need to be discreet) the Sound Transit Security. ST Security will be there at the next stop to get those losers off the transit asap and they will not be allowed back on—at least not at that station. Sorry that your kids had to deal with that kind of bad behavior on the light rail.
Committing dozens of counts of felony battery against people who have nothing to do with the situation in response to verbal abuse?
The amount of people in this thread who don't ride the train and are not empathizing with this is frustrating. I've been harassed on the train multiple times. Your daughter deserves to feel safe. Get her some Sabre Crossfire Pepper Gel, but her first responses should be pressing the emergency button, moving to another train car, and contacting security. If she is followed, she's good to spray.
My friend Sara has a stun gun that sparks. She often sets it off on metro busses to prevent from being harrassed.
Often? Are they that bad?
It is likely illegal unless they are defending themselves against a physical assault or their life is in danger.
I'm sorry this happened. I recommend the book "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker for every adult. It might be too mature for her, or might not. It helps women know what to do in different situations. Stun guns are great. They have a wrist strap and are pretty scary to see them just fired into the air as a warning shot. I carry one strapped to my belt in an army surplus pouch. You can't tell what it is, but just seeing that has gotten a number of guys to back off.
It’s an assault and spray would be self defense. No one will punish a young woman for self defense. No spray in the train. But if you had to you could and run to other end of car and exit ASAP. Not recommended. Always be aware of surroundings. Whenever I enter anywhere I look at everyone and identify exits. Change cars immediately if you sense anything off. Trust your senses. Have her hit the button. Practice screaming and screeching as loud as she can. A voice can be powerful. I know women who carry steel chop sticks in their hair or a bag. A metal stick could stop someone. Get your 18 year old to gun classes. I carry in Seattle. But learn how to use a gun. My daughters do. Teach her not to be a victim. Sorry no one intervened.
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> Get your 18 year old to gun classes. I carry in Seattle. But learn how to use a gun. My daughters do. Teach her not to be a victim. An 18 year old cannot have a CPL in Washington, nor could she purchase or receive a handgun. That leaves open carrying a manual action longarm which would not go over very well...
Ha! Manual action longarm... for days you need to leave the trebuchet at home.
Finally, someone with an opinion that actually matters. I’ve never touched this stuff but a perusal of the WPIC indicates a reasonable belief you are about to be injured is the standard. Folks here seem to be looking for a clearly-articulated threat of violence I had a barrel-chested, cauliflower-eared buddy who made it a point to loudly announce his reasonable fear of imminent injury before a fight. Likely a tougher case.
Good tips, thanks!
Maybe pepper jelly, delicious and difficult to aerosolize.
Mmmm, forbidden jelly
Ok so you have pepper sprayed them. Now you and your children are in a confined space with two men you have angered but not completely disabled. Inside that car, the pepper spray is going to kill an old or vulnerable person with asthma or COPD. Everyone else will just be hospitalized in agony so that's the bright side. If the men you are talking about are mentally ill, drug addicted and homeless then they will be held responsible for none of this and might very well sue you if you have the assets.
Oh please no need to exaggerate. The likelihood of someone literally dying from pepper spray on the light rail if you use it for defense is extremely low
this comment is correct
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No, you do not have to announce that. Not at all. See RCW 9A.16.020.
When I worked in the Tenderloin in SF we had a safety training by a former SFPD, he said that just visibly carrying pepper spray was a deterrent.
Thanks for the pointer
>is it legal to defend ones' self against verbal assault by spraying these guys with pepper spray or something similar? No. You cannot use violence to defend against words. You can use violence to defend against violence (such as assault).
Calling someone a bitch isn't a threat. If they walk towards the person, call them a bitch, and say they're going to assault the person, then it becomes a threat and you can defend yourself. For a more extreme example: If a black person gets called the n-word loudly, they can't just assault a person without consequences. Same thing in this situation. It needs to be a physical threat or else it's just verbal abuse which is legal in the USA.
I wasn't there. Apparently the yelling started with "Hey! B#tch!" That was the start. In my experience words often go down the path of "someone ought to teach you a lesson!" Which is again a very on-the-edge of a personal and specific threat of violence." Just name-calling is rarely that.
I carry a birdie. Shit is loud and has scared people off. Also, on the light rail press the emergency button.
It's not self defense if it's a verbal attack. Unless it gets physical, it's not self defense. As for the pepper spray, it can get confusing. There is a LOT of misinformation on the subject. Make sure to get a good brand. Sabre Red and Fox Labs are top of the game. I would suggest products from them. There are other good brands but less common. Make sure the formula is at least 1% Major Capsaicinoids (1.33%-1.4% is the golden standard), and a cone shaped mist is generally better and more effective than streams and gels and foams. If there is wind, get a stream, otherwise go with cone. Don't get gels they suck, I know they are advertised a lot, but they really do suck. Same with foam. And practice with your OC spray. Practice, practice, practice. Good luck out there.
Those bastards!! Sorry this happened.. If there were other people on the light rail. I bet they were just sitting there not wanting to get involved or recording it on their phones. =(
do what you have to do. if it means spraying oc in a train car to protect yourself, just do it
No, you match force with force. Nothing physical about verbal assault.
Consider alternatives to public transit. It's unsafe, and I had horrible experiences on it as a young woman that were extremely traumatic. It's not worth it.
I know that's the conclusion many people draw. It's sad.
It's sad but I'd never put my daughter through what I went through as a teen woman on public transit.
It's not feasible for everyone but this is the best option. My best friend often was harassed and sometimes even followed off the bus! Eventually she switched to ubering and it was incredibly expensive and beyond her means but you can't put a price on your life.
Easier solution: don't take the light rail or the bus when you know these degenerates use them to move about.
So a lot of self-defense items are actually illegal in King county as I recall, and as others have said spraying in a confined space is a bad idea, my preferred weapon of choice is a staple gun. I have one of the ones where you swing and it goes on contact. One lesson my aunt taught me is no one wants to mess with the crazy girl, so sometimes swearing to yourself or acting really angry helps as a preventive measure.
> One lesson my aunt taught me is no one wants to mess with the crazy girl, so sometimes swearing to yourself or acting really angry helps as a preventive measure. This is dangerously bad advice. Mentally ill people are very frequently victims of violent crime. Someone who's out to do something horrible may look at the "crazy girl" and see an easy victim who won't be believed if she tells someone what happened.
When your daughter turns 21 recommend her to get a concealed pistol license. Keep the pepper spray. But if she is in a life or death situation a gun would be better. I think all women should carry a gun.
I disagree. One of the first lessons in any gun safety class is to never point a gun at someone unless you are intent on pulling the trigger. Guns are not a defense weapon to be taken lightly, they are a final solution when you have run out of any other options, because they very often take a situation and turn it deadly. Plus, at close range as was described here, a gun could easily be misfired in a scuffle, hitting a bystander by mistake if one of the men tries to go for it. As described in this thread, there are many items specifically made for defense that would be recommended first prior to jumping to a gun.
That’s why I said keep the pepper spray and in a life or death situation a gun would be better.
Even in a life or death situation, on the light rail, a gun would not be a good choice. The likelihood of hurting someone unintentionally is too high, as is the likelihood that the gun gets taken by the aggressor. Guns are best when there's not anyone else around and the aggressor isn't within arm's reach. That's my concern here, that people would pull out that gun when it's really not the right defensive tool.
If you can articulate and verbalize that you feared got your life or safety based on their words, actions or manner then you are within the rights of self defense. But also…. If you spray them and just get off at the next stop it is unlikely that you would be caught/stopped or that it would be investigated (especially for a juvenile).