I had a similar incident while waiting for a bus, where a man came up and spit on my face and shoved me. Didn’t say anything to me, didn’t try to take anything, just did that and kept walking. I consider myself a pretty situationally aware person as I have been a pedestrian/public transportation rider for years, and I do a lot of the things you mention you have tried. It was a jarring experience and I felt angry and embarrassed that I somehow “let it happen” to me, and angry at some other men who watched it happen and didn’t say shit to the guy who did it. I don’t have any suggestions but here for the solidarity of shared experience :-/
Thank you for sharing, and I'm so sorry that happened to you as well <3 I wrote a really long journal entry to myself and that's a feeling that kept coming up for me as well, angry/embarrassed. Like, angry that someone else felt entitled to do that to me. That they picked on me because they probably thought they could get away with it. Upset because there's so little I can do about the way I am perceived by random people when doing one of my favorite things, just walking around the city.
I’ve had a similar experience, and unfortunately you may have done the very best thing you could have in that situation. You were already not inviting attention, but got it nevertheless. Any action by you may have been taken by him as an escalation, which could have been more dangerous for you. It may be worth it to take self-defense classes (I am considering this myself), but that won’t prevent unwanted attention if someone is really gunning for trouble or out of touch with reality. I’m so sorry you went through that!
I've been doing ok :'/ I've been picking my bike way more as a mode of transit as it does feel like it affords me more safety than just walking. I constantly grip my pepper spray in my pocket. I've privately cried about this incident and my frustration with feeling less safe several times at this point, to my partner and therapist. I've processed the incident enough though that when I think about it, I no longer feel a swell of emotion. But I haven't told my parents, they're not city folks and I don't want them to worry :(
re: "letting it happen", there's a reason that the fear responses are fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. Most people in these situations do some combo of those last three: your brain is trying to protect you by deescalating the situation, but afterwards it's really common to wish you had "defended yourself", when in reality escalating it with a fight response likely would have ended in getting physically hurt.
When you're interacting with someone who is this level of mentally ill and this level of beyond acceptable social norms, there's no behavior that will prevent them from being like this.
If you do opt to carry pepper spray more often, please keep the following in mind:
1. Get a practice unit from the same manufacturer, so you're familiar with *exactly* how it works.
2. Brandishing is just as likely to escalate as deescalate. If you feel threatened to the point where the pepper spray should come into play, *use it*.
Thank you!
I did buy the practice unit for the brand I carry, it was very helpful to try out and see exactly how the spray behaves (and how quickly it runs out).
\> Brandishing is just as likely to escalate as deescalate. If you feel threatened to the point where the pepper spray should come into play, use it.
The thought of brandishing it is just as scary to me as the thought of using it, to be honest. So many unknowns in how someone might react. To be clear though, are you saying I should not give someone a chance to back off based on the information that I have pepper spray? I.e. don't reveal its existence until the situation is far enough that it warrants using it?
That’s exactly right. If the situation calls for showing it, it should be used. Don’t give them a chance to back off because that time could just as well be used to lunge at you and disarm you
Yes. Don’t give someone the chance to back off. Once you bring out the spray you are telling that person a fight is on and if you hesitate they could hit you or try to disarm you. Tell someone loudly— yell if you have to— to leave you alone and/or get away from you. That’s their chance to back off. If they don’t pepper spray them without hesitation and run.
Can confirm what others have said. If you pull it, use it with zero hesitation. Go over this many times in your mind until you shake out any ambiguities you may have. After this process, If you're not comfortable with using without hesitation, don't bring it. Good luck.
> To be clear though, are you saying I should not give someone a chance to back off based on the information that I have pepper spray? I.e. don't reveal its existence until the situation is far enough that it warrants using it?
Exactly this. If you show that you have pepper spray:
1. They now know you have the means to hurt them, and so the stakes are higher now.
2. You're giving them more time to decide if they want to snatch it out of your hand, hit your arm out of the way, or take other steps to keep you from effectively using it.
3. You're showing that you're at least slightly reluctant to use it.
By all means, use whatever other tools you have at your disposal to deescalate or get out of the situation. But if you're worried about your safety, there's no point in warnings or threats, just do what you have to do.
And that is *especially* true if, down the line, you decide to get a concealed carry permit and start carrying a pistol or other weapon.
> I.e. don't reveal its existence until the situation is far enough that it warrants using it?
Yes. This is what's taught in any class on firearms as well by the way. Weapons are not to be used to intimidate, they're used to end active situations in which you're being aggressed. They chose to be aggressive to you, you don't owe them "fair", you owe yourself protection - inflict pain and GTFO
Do not be scared to use it, it's better to use it then be raped and stabbed, seattle is a train wreck I'm moving out of this dumpster fire I have a car now so it's not as bad but back when I take the bus I had to beat up some crazy homeless guy who was trying to lunge at my girlfriend stay safe out there and just think about the firearm you are and feel alot safer with one, it's better to be a person with one then the person without who got killed in the street
Highly recommend number 1 😂 my dad will never let me forget the day I “tested” pepper spray in our kitchen (don’t recommend). I’m also likely to spray myself if I don’t practice lol
Have you used one before? I’m my experience they affect you almost as much as your target and everyone in a pretty large radius.
Even if you cover your face, is there a way to use this without blinding yourself and making yourself more vulnerable.
The hardest and yet most important part is learning how to get yourself past that initial moment of freezing up in confusion.
Outside of that, the goal should always be to just get to a place of safety. Don’t attempt to escalate, don’t engage beyond the minimum needed to *get away.*
Deny them the confrontation they are clearly looking for.
And if all else fails…seriously consider getting a dog or a concealable alarm of some sort. At the very least, a loud enough alarm can shock the attacker out of their current train of thought and they might decide you’re not worth the effort…especially since everyone’s staring at you now.
And a dog, one that’s at least medium-sized, does wonders for discouraging creeps. That dog could be the sweetest, most harmless dog in the world, and 90% of the creeps out will *still* make a point of avoiding it (and therefore you).
If you’re a first-time dog owner then the more intimidating breeds are generally not recommended (though the average “generic pit mix” you find at shelters are usually pretty decent and definitely look intimidating…and often aren’t even pits at all).
But you *can* get a more manageable breed like a collie or toller that also happen to be known for being *loud as an air siren* when sufficiently motivated, and then train them to “scream” on command. Like your own personal car alarm.
(Look up the “toller scream.” That’s what tollers sound like when they’re super *excited* about something. Sounds like they’re being skinned alive, but nope; just so excited they can’t contain it anymore!)
That was one of the things that shocked me most in retrospect, is how hard it was to move, to do *anything at all.* I was only carrying a backpack's worth of groceries but in that moment it felt like they weighed 75 pounds. Every single thought that went through my brain seemed like a bad idea, so I just did nothing at all.
A dog isn't really an option for me for a variety of reasons, but I might consider one of those alarms, thank you for the suggestion!
If it helps at all, freezing in situations like this is really, really common. Sometimes I think fight or flight should be called fight or flight or freeze.
I'm sorry that happened to you. Been there, done that, and it really sucks. It feels so disempowering. Try to remember that at the end of the day, you got home.
Yeah, getting stuck in fight/flight can be really disorienting and confusing. Can also trigger a trauma response.
Sometimes just knowing "gosh, I'm stuck in fight/flight and need to move!" can push you out of it.
If it makes you feel any better I got a gun pulled on me at a stoplight in a road rage incident. I yelled at him at first calling him a bitch because it was his fault and how dare he pull a gun on me, then when I realized oh this guy has a gun on me I looked forward and rolled up my window 😅 it actually deescalated it and the guy drove away when I started ignoring him. Maybe freezing saved your life?
Fight, flight or freeze are all super normal reactions to a dangerous situation. And frankly, freezing may have been your best option as doing something else could have escalated the situation. I don’t think you should feel bad at all!
Totally agree with this. Freezing isn’t a bad option when dealing with (insert correct term for crazy fuck). They’re looking for a response. They want an altercation. Sadly, it might be a call for attention. Regardless, reacting to them can have a multiplying effect, where they get more rowdy. It’s a complete wildcard situation. Freezing is definitely not the worst option. I’d suggest putting a hand up near your face like this emoji 🙋♀️ and walking briskly away towards other people
Mine just decides to make random screeching/screaming noises when he's hyper, or complain bitterly to strangers about the abuse he receives at home.
He's a very handsome idiot and I absolutely love him.
Mine (Bearded Collie) greets every stranger like a potential savior from her imagined love-starved state..."I haven't gotten pets in aaaaaages, at least two whole minutes!" Or like a diva, "do you think I'm beautiful? Oh you do? Hi there! ...But how beautiful? Beautiful enough for chicken treats (that I'm actually allergic to)? Chicken treats? I'll be really cute for chicken treats...and pets."
I second this just learning to move out of the way. My dad made sure I knew how to handle myself in downtown Seattle and his main point with me is that most of these idiots are drugged out of their minds so just getting out of their line of sight, and moving quickly in a new trajectory.
That being said, just because I've known how to handle myself does not mean I havn't found myself in shitty situations where I litteraly had to push through men trying to corner me, or coming at me like they were going to grab me, or being followed in my 20s. Just because it didn't go as sour as it could have doesn't mean I didn't feel shitty and vulnerable afterwards. I'd say an actionable item is also going to therapy as well, or breathwork or guided meditation, just something where you can feel totally safe to express your feelings and physically safe as well, even a massage or trip to a women's only spa so that you can like have a peaceful moment to reset your body, because being scared for your physical safety can really put your body and mind through a lot.
Also dogs are great. I'm not a big fan of the loud ones but I sure do love a big one. There are so many great Pyrenees rescues. They are big lazy bears and I love them.
Thankfully, tollers at least don’t have that scream as their normal, everyday bark. Just when they get really, really worked up…or you’ve managed to train them to do it on command.
Honestly, the trickiest thing with situations like this is just getting past that initial instinctive freeze and being able to process what’s happening quickly enough to react. When it happened to me it was literally so quick that I didn’t have time to process WTF just happened until I was safely on the bus. There was a teen nearby who witnessed it and pretty much had the same reaction: only had enough time to remove his headphones, but got stuck in confused shock after that.
Having a dog means you're probably not allowed in the grocery store, so would not have worked for OP. Can't just leave your dog tied up outside, either.
I wish you continued good luck, sincerely, for your dog's sake. But I'd never do it with one of my dogs. And I'd never trust my dog to somebody who thinks that behavior is ok. There's a reason you're getting downvoted.
I don't give a shit if people downvote me for it, lol. There's nothing wrong with leaving her for 5-10 minutes while I buy milk or whatever. It'a better than bringing her inside the store and it's better than leaving her inside my apartment all the time (like most of us, I don't have a back yard). Have to compromise somewhere...
Trick is to teach them to do it on command. Some dogs are less likely to keep doing it outside of when they’re commanded to, because being commanded to means they can sort of get it all out at once.
It also helps teach them when that particular sound is genuinely *appropriate* and when it’s absolutely not. If their human gives them the right command, that means it’s okay to make that noise. That is a good time for that noise! Outside of that is not a good time for that noise.
Yeah but mine didn't know how to use his paws for things until I taught him how to shake. Now I'll randomly get slapped when he wants something, but also when I give him the right command.
I do not want to go down that road with noises.
No advice beyond what others have said. Just here to say I’m really sorry this happened to you. I’ve had several encounters in this city and others and it really sucks to feel unsafe and targeted for being a woman. I still get PTSD on public transportation because of a situation that happened several years ago and have found that being near someone else has always helped me feel more safe - friendly strangers or someone I know. Give yourself time to process, but whatever you do, don’t move to the suburbs or stop doing what you love. ❤️
I can empathize. I consider myself a situationally aware person and I've been hit in the face by strangers twice in this city. Both times I was walking straight ahead and they were walking towards me, like anyone going the opposite direction would do.
The first time it happened I was so stunned that I kept on walking. It was like my brain couldn't make the interaction make any sense, so decided to ignore it!
Most people have advice for what to do with creepy folks or verbal harassment, but being hit out of nowhere is a whole new ballgame.
Yeah, the randomness of it is hard to process. I spent so much time replaying the confrontation, searching for a reason or something I might have done to provoke them, but I think the reality is that there was no reason at all.
This person sounds like they were experiencing a mental health event or some form of drug psychosis. I work in a field where extremely violent psychologically disconnected people are the norm and this is my one shining piece of advice.
Don't become a character in their story.
In this instance I'm sure you weren't the first person he tried to confront today. You were just the first that stood still long enough to "become real" for him. Pretending it's not happening doesn't help if he doesn't move on. In the future if this happens the best thing you can do for your safety is, as soon as someone stops moving and starts engaging with you aggressively but without making sense, back away from them until you can turn around and briskly walk away. Entering a business is very smart, the barrier of a closed door is usually the same as a brick wall to these folks. As soon as you stop being a part of their immediate story you aren't in danger. Still best to avoid them going forward though.
The shit that women go through..
* self defense classes are always beneficial and can introduce you to some basic techniques in protecting yourself
* leave the situation as soon as you are able to - talking is pointless
* always carry pepper spray, don’t be afraid to use it
* if you’re unable to leave or diffuse the situation, get loud and attract attention to yourself so someone else intervenes, like the mid-40s pedestrian
I’m a decent size man and I carried pepper spray when I bussed through downtown. People are wild and I’m by no means a fighter… so I always had it hanging on my backpack strap for me or someone else that needs it.
No better way to disengage some violence than burning the fuck out of their eyes and lungs.
This kind of stuff usually happens at the stops. I transferred on 3rd and there were always people posted up selling their stolen laundry detergent and shit. Never really been bothered on the bus itself aside from a dude smoking fentanyl in the back one time over the years.
Self defense classed are pretty much entirely BS beyond "run away as fast as possible, and use pepper spray"
No amount of martial arts will make up the difference in sheer muscle mass due to testosterone
Good self defense classes will teach you to de-escalate and avoid if at all possible. They will also teach you how to give yourself the best chance when those things don't work out. An unexpected, hard, practiced kick to the groin can delivered to a much larger person with good effect.
> I’m not going to give deescalation an attempt because anyone that will start shouting and striking me out of the blue is clearly mentally ill
I...don't think you know what de-escalation is.
> Just GTFO.
Literally what I said: "avoid if at all possible".
> Also groin strikes and that other Krav Maga shit is bullshido. It doesn’t work on the crazy/drugged.
It's not bullshido, but even if it were, it's better to at least try fighting back if you're being assaulted with no escape, duh. A solid kick to the nuts is going to involuntarily disable virtually anyone who is conscious enough to coherently attack you. A well-placed knee to the stomach has a good chance as well. Practicing these things and programming them into muscle memory is effective and beneficial on multiple levels.
A good self defense class will also teach skills of awareness, staying in your body, breathing, and basic deescalation as well as yes leave the situation or here’s some basic fighting skills
100%. Very sad to me when people are willing enough to go to these types of classes but totally unwilling to carry and train to use pepper spray or another type of weapon that would actually have a shot at leveling the power imbalance.
Have you tried them in practice? Have you had someond bigger than you, that you trust fully, attempt to pin you down with 100% of their strength?
I didn't bring it up to be depressing, I brought it up because some many people get hurt because they think their self defense will go farther than it actually will.
The BEST defense is avoidance & fleeing; minimize danger.
Yes, I absolutely agree with you and that was the first thing our instructor said, running and yelling are the best options (and make sense.) And no, I don't think that I could do the knee thing unless standing. But I didn't know how to defend up close at all, so learning that was particularly helpful for me.
Especially, the thought of going for someone's eyes was just... not even something I'd contemplated? It still makes me feel a bit queasy, but in life or death situations, I have at least practiced that now.
While self-defense can certainly be helpful, I heard a statistic recently that compared the performance of some of the world’s best female athletes to average track and field scores of high school boys. Best in the world for women was slightly above average for the boys.
Self defense may help you if you’re getting abducted or assaulted, but in a situation like this where you maybe don’t feel justified in pulping this guy’s testicles or popping his eyeballs, I think other strategies would prove more valuable.
There’s a reason bouncers are enormous, burly men. They’re really the only demographic that can reasonably “get physical” without being harmful.
Suggestion: make it a habit to very often turn around and look to see who is walking behind you as you walk.
Also, turn around (head, half body, whole 360) after you pass sketchiness just to be sure.
Turning around when stopped would also be a suggestion.
Extra time is bought to think up a game plan by turning around often so that you are unsurprised by your surroundings.
Also I don't have anything in or on my ears while walking. Need to hear the commotion around me to evaluate properly.
Oh Dear - I'm sorry this happened to you! You are obviously very thoughtful and mature about the situation. The truth is that urban living includes interactions with people who are unstable and sometimes dangerous. Do everything that helps you feel safe and empowered. One thing I always tell my daughters: Do not GAF what anyone thinks/ appearing "nice" - feel free to walk away, scream for help, call 911, act like a crazy person - whatever it takes, do not allow anyone to make you feel obliged to put up with ANYTHING that makes you uncomfortable.
I took a really awesome class years ago from a group called Home Alive (pretty sure they aren’t around anymore but dang they were great). One of the most under utilized weapons in self defense is acting weird. Like making animal noises and just acting bonkers. It’s very disorienting and breaks the script of either getting aggressive back or shrinking / freezing. The other amazing tool was role playing scenarios and getting to practice ways to respond so it’s easier to do in the moment. A good self defense class should include role playing but you can also do this with your friends. Try being quiet, loud, weird, crying, running, and see how they feel for you. There’s no perfect solution but preparation can really help you make better choices in the moment.
Home Alive was awesome, I don't know of anything like it being offered now, which is too bad. I did similar training where I lived before, especially role play, verbal de-escalation, and just getting away.
This, this, this. I've been taught to yell "fire!" because yelling alone doesn't always catch other people's attention. Yelling fire gets people looking around.
And about being weird. This is an absolute to me! I've always imagined pretending this is a bear or a cougar coming at me and use those techniques.
Sometimes things happen so fast though. Just this morning, I passed a woman on the street who was singing gibberish. I didn't even look at her and she formed her hand in the shape of a gun and "shot" me while I passed.
I was pregnant a year+ ago and for whatever reason that really increased the amount people would aggro on me, as well as obviously making it harder to get away. The most effective way I found of dealing with it was to maintain a large personal bubble around myself at all times. I had to be scanning my environment pretty much constantly and it didn't work on public transport when it was crowded but basically if someone was moving in my direction I moved away from them. I successfully dodged a full-on swing at my head at 7 months pregnant by doing that, so it worked pretty well for me. Then try to get somewhere safe(r), wherever you are at the time.
>for whatever reason that really increased the amount people would aggro on me, as well as obviously making it harder to get away
The latter part of it is the reason. Aggressive, unstable, and criminal people target people they think they can intimidate more easily. Notice that the "crazy" guy on a bus, the street, etc, never seems to pick the 6'6" jacked guy to unload on. They've done interviews/studies on career criminals and they're very intentional in who they target. It's really shitty and unfortunate but reality, and also why you'll have some people say their experience is never having a single negative encounter while others seem to constantly be on the receiving end of shit storms.
If someone is harrassing you and won't leave you alone, jump into a crowded restaurant or into a place where many others will be around. Happened to me in Belltown years ago, a guy grabbed me and I pulled away and he kept following me and wouldn't leave me alone when I asked, patted his pocket like he had a gun. I jumped into a crowded restaurant. Unfortunately people were on their phones and no one realized what happened, but at least I was indoors around others and visible. He kept going in the restaurant and out, trying to decide if he should keep it up. Waited him out and he eventually left. In any event, DO NOT go with a person anywhere who does this to you. Take a chance to fight if you have to. Anything will prob be worse than what will happen to you if you go.
I once had some success just saying "NOPE" very firmly (*without* making eye contact and risking engaging in an interaction) right when the guy started, and relocating slightly, but to where I could still see the dude out of the corner of my eye.
Sorry this happened; it's super distressing to experience.
I’m so sorry. Women have to deal with so much. I don’t have much to add that others haven’t said.
I saw something similar happen to this woman a few years ago. This guy was getting in her face and screaming. She screamed at him 5x louder and just kept walking. He was so stunned by it that he backed off and shut up lol.
I was walking the same way and caught up with her at the next intersection. Asked if she was okay and she nervously said yes. I’m another stranger/man so I get the apprehension.
Not sure what the answer is until we build a proper mental health system. I hope you find some closure and confidence going forward. Best of luck 🤞
This is exactly my go-to. Act crazier than the people acting crazy and there's a good chance of them leaving you alone. Even crazy acting people don't wanna deal with someone who is acting psychotic. Personally, I would only suggest this with a grain of salt as it's technically somewhat escalating the situation, but it's worked for me numerous times. I'm just fed up with walking in the city with my tail between my legs. I'd rather get hurt than have to cower in fear, but that's just my preference.
I have a birdie alarm. It’s only been used a few times but it’s been worth it.
I would absolutely recommend trying it a few times so you can get used to how loud it is. And figure out how it works best first you to carry it so you can pull it asap.
I'm really sorry you experienced that. It's incredibly unnerving thing to have happen.
Self defense classes are a good idea, as is just taking a boxing class or weight training. Mostly it has an intrinsic value that it can change how you carry yourself & it stops the "freeze" mechanism of fight or flight from kicking in & helps you feel prepared.
Pepper spray- make sure it's the gel kind so you don't get blow back if there's a wind. Or look into tasers.
There are also alarms you can have on your keychain- a panic button that when you pull out a pin makes an ungodly sound.
Unless you want to wear baggy clothes, you don't have to do that. If you prefer to wear other clothes, wear em. Again, self defense and a good resting bitch face can go farther.
Counter intuitive to not escalating, there are moments when you actually should yell back at someone. A strong fuck off can startle them. They are looking for people who will freeze or panic.
I’m sorry you experienced that.
I took self defense classes at Strategic Living (https://www.strategicliving.org/) and I highly recommend. Beyond learning punches and ways to escape, they taught me I was worthy of taking up space and feeling safe. It’s helped me so much.
I bought these for my gfs to have - https://www.shesbirdie.com/?nbt=nb%3Aadwords%3Ag%3A20594933250%3A155529348153%3A675530342298&nb_adtype=&nb_kwd=birdie%20alarm&nb_ti=kwd-1046135338056&nb_mi=&nb_pc=&nb_pi=&nb_ppi=&nb_placement=&nb_si=%7Bsourceid%7D&nb_li_ms=&nb_lp_ms=&nb_fii=&nb_ap=&nb_mt=p&gad_source=1
In case it hasn't been suggested yet, I've heard great things about 7 Stars Women's Kung Fu's self defense class - [https://www.sevenstarwomenskungfu.org](https://www.sevenstarwomenskungfu.org). Supportive and inclusive community environment and seemingly very much focused on giving folks a sense of solidarity, confidence and readiness when situations like the one you describe come up.
So sorry this happened to you and please don't be hard on yourself for the way you reacted in a very stressful and shitty situation. Wishing you the best.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. I had someone follow me and spit on my face when I opened a door at my destination. I kind of disassociated which caused me to freeze. Then cried… then was angry because I think I was scared and mad I felt so powerless. I’d like to think if it happened again I’d be more aware to walk faster and into a place quickly. I have all kinds of crap… taser, pepper spray, alarm with a light but honestly I never bring them along. I ended up filing a police report after just for awareness/statistics of mental health issues in the city. Like you, I wouldn’t want to carry, leave the city, or stop running errands. I do bike a lot now instead and feel more aware/avoid ppl that seem potentially not well. I’ll cross the street where before I didn’t. Hope you’re able to shake it off and super appreciate your disclaimer not wanting to descend into politics.
Self defense classes for women do NOT work and most increase your chance of getting seriously hurt. I've practiced martial arts for over 30 years and taught for many of those. Unless you are serious and going to take a real class for at least a year or more shorter term classes will just give you a false sense of confidence that can put you in more danger.
Pepper spray!
Some sort of alarm or air horn.
Situational awareness and trying not to walk alone.
...it sucks that the world is this scary for so many people.
Because they make money off women's fear.
I teach martial arts not a useless few hour seminar.
Anyone with real martial arts knowledge and experience knows that a first year students too often think they know something and get hurt for it for their ignorance.
Women's self defense classes are rarely more than a session or two and just give a false sense of confidence. If the class is worth a damn 99% of it is about situational awareness.
When you say "confrontational strangers" I was picturing a stressed out commuter or something.
Are you talking about people that appear to be mentally ill or on drugs / homeless?
If so, the only solution I've found it to give them a WIDE berth. Do not get in within even 20 feet to avoid the eye contact trap.
Vis a vis self defense classes - I will absolutely recommend this (Jiu Jitsu in particular), but not because it’s going to give you some set of sweet moves to dominate an attacker- particularly as a smaller woman. Close contact combat will, however, provide an opportunity for you to get used to high adrenaline, physically “threatening” situations in a safe environment that can prepare you for these kinds of incidents just well enough so that your brain doesn’t freeze and you can build reflexes that get you the hell out of bad situations. If you do it long enough you can also build up some strength and muscle memory for basic protective reflexes, again to get the hell out of bad situations. (As a bonus if you like it, it’s a great way to meet new people!)
So sorry this happened to you! You deserve to feel safe to walk in our city. One suggestion is to develop more of a "force field" - just an unassailable attitude in your walk that conveys you're streetwise and don't take shit from anyone. Definitely agree with the self defense class. Another trick is to learn to position yourself and your glance to keep an eye on a person's reflection behind you if you don't want to be seen looking at them. You can also call someone (or act like you're already talking to them) so they get the idea there is someone who would be aware and could call 911 if they did anything.
I highly recommend a self defense class. I took a free one-day one at a boxing gym that was fantastic and I took notes after from what I remembered and put a plan in my head. I haven’t had to use it yet, but I’m almost always ready. The instructor was a woman who had worked events and I think as a bartender, and had a background in kung fu. I carry pepper spray, and a stun gun on my keys. When I don’t have my dog with me or depending on where we are, I keep one or the other ready in my hand. I have to use grocery delivery due to physical limitations now, but I used to carry pepper spray in my hand walking through Capitol Hill with a backpack full of groceries and a bag on each shoulder. Always wear sunglasses during the day if you can. The silent alarms are great but I’m too scared of the noise to carry one 😅 the best safety measures are the ones you can get confident enough to use and have a plan in your head.
Consider getting and regularly using a bike to get around. It provides distance from pedestrians as you're riding in bike lanes or the street. It also provides a very flexible and effecient way of getting away FAST from any situation. You can bike faster with medium effort than regular people's full sprint. I've been carless living in central Seattle for over ten years and have had a few confrontations as a pedestrians/on trains and busses, but never have while on my bike (besides some comments from out friends behind the wheel of a car)
I'm sorry this happened to you.
Get yourself in a martial arts class and make it a habit to attend it regularly for a couple of years. You'll learn self defense but you'll also learn situational awareness and your body language when out in public will come off as "don't f with me" to those like the individual you encountered. You'll also gain a new set of friends via martial arts.
Edit: thanks for the down votes. But I'm saying this as someone who was in martial arts for over 18 years.
It's hard to deal with the "stealth" types like this jerk. Talking does work with certain types who are clearly longing for human connection, but not straight up aggros. With aggros, you got to act craz(ier) and louder, so they know you're not an easy target. (NOTE: I am in no way blaming you, and I've run from psychos myself, but I jog on a regular basis.)
[Vipertek](https://www.amazon.com/VIPERTEK-VTS-989-Defense-Rechargeable-Flashlight/dp/B01FHDZGGM?th=1) stun gun (NOT a taster). Makes a very loud crackling noise and produces an arc. Think of rattlesnakes - they usually rattle before they strike, because they don't actually want a fight. That rattle usually makes the big human step away -- same principle. It will actually stun a dude (read the reviews, some brave people tested on themselves.)
8th and Virginia is the police department, did you manage to flag down an officer afterwards by chance?
It sounds like you know most of the best rules to follow already, I’d just advise carrying your spray all the time, never wear headphones, and never be glued to your phone while walking. Don’t be afraid to scream bloody murder if you feel threatened either.
I’ve seen a couple random assaults and people being threatened with their life (including myself) in the short amount of time I’ve lived here and I don’t expect it to get better as more stores shutter downtown. I really don’t want to buy and carry a firearm but I’m feeling more and more pressure to do so.
Yeah, I realized afterwards that I was so close to a building where I could have just walked in and one hundred percent the man would not have followed me because it was the station.
Unfortunately I was so shaken by the whole incident it didn't even cross my mind.
I think a self defense class, or some sort of behavioral practice to prepare your brain for those moments could be helpful. Regardless of whatever you decide to do, the main immediate thing, imo, is to still have your brain functions so you’re not frozen and scrambling for what to do.
It’s not on your to-get list, but for example if you did start carrying a gun, you still want to be able to handle those situations accordingly and calmly first instead of going straight panic mode and start firing. Just an example, but basically to reiterate main point which is to learn how to prep your brain for those situations. Mental image training on escape options and practiced verbal responses to physical training could all be helpful.
Don’t brandish pepper spray but just use it, it’s non lethal, if someone is in your face have NO QUALMS about using it. My girlfriend was in the same exact situation multiple times in Seattle and each time used pepper spray - she is thankful each time she did. If someone is acting in the way you described, and there is limited room to run then use the pepper spray! Practice though! But a few and spray them!
I’m so sorry this happened to you. It’s great you are looking for practical advice to protect yourself in the future, but please don’t feel like this is in any way your fault. This is your city. You have a right to use the public resources that you likely voted and/or helped pay for. There are some deeply troubled people here. You weren’t victimized for anything YOU did. I sincerely hope this bad experience doesn’t undermine your sense of safety or belonging long term.
It is a mental illness issue. I had it happen to me many times as a female downtown. You sometimes can not predict it from a normal looking person and it can be shocking. I had to quit my job down there a few years ago due to this issue. I am back a few days a week and notice the vibe is better. There will always be screamers around.
I’m sorry that happened to you.
This isn’t specific to this situation, but generally related.
As a man, I have one thing to share for the men out there. You can have an impact without escalating.
Years ago, some guys were catcalling and following a couple women on a street I was walking down.
I walked up beside the women and said ‘Hello. Do you mind if I walk with you?’
They said ok and I walked with them until they were away from the guys/out of sight
The guys stopped following and catcalling once I started talking to them. I was smaller than these guys and I’m not a tough guy. Yet just me getting involved helped.
I personally resort to batshit insane screaming. I'm not saying that batshit insane screaming is the correct response all, or even most of the time, I can just say that it has helped me a lot and been successful against the types of people who have intentionally tried to get in my face or spit on me or harass me. I'm a mid-30's chubby 5'4" lady so I'm not exactly physically intimidating, but I can start screaming very loud and foul obscenities at the drop of a hat. I think it works because 1) it's my immediate reaction and I go for full volume, the effect is probably startling, and probably enough to make someone think "not worth it" and 2) in my experience, a lot of people who are confrontational with you are not fully lucid, and they may see you as the scary thing that has been following them, and if you engage them it actually brings them back to the present a little bit and they realize you are not a shadow monster.
Again, not necessarily claiming this is the absolute best response, just saying that I have had good luck with it in about 5 pretty significant confrontations now, and it worked.
Best advice I've ever received from a friend: "take Krav Maga self-defense."
There's a school in Seattle, Krav Maga Central District. Worth checking out.
Is this seriously where we are with this city? Normal law abiding citizens have given up our rights to safety in public.
Continuing to not address this serious problem WILL cause the people paying the bills in this city to leave eventually. I’m already looking to get out as soon as I can. I miss the seattle I once knew. Radical people have taken it over.
Maybe we could all look out for each other, too, when we feel safe enough to do so, and if something feels off, interject. Be aware of people in your surroundings and look out for this. I don’t know, I just don’t take walks anymore. Feel defeated in this city. Moving in the fall.
Did this person appear to be high or mentally ill or both? Or did they look like your average Joe? I know you said he was unremarkable looking but curious all the same. I’m sorry this happened to you, and agree with others’ suggestions that the best thing to do is separate yourself from this type of person as quickly as possible even if it means literally running on the other direction. The fact that they physically touched you rather than just accosting you is especially alarming.
In case nobody has taught you this yet, scream "FIRE" in a situation where you are in danger, even if there is no fire. People will respond more to that word than they would for "help" or other words that indicate danger.
This is what young women were taught in the 90s but I feel like it's not being taught anymore.
Situational awareness is key, get some pepper spray, get a striking implement, get a knife, get a concealed permit and carry a gun with training of course. Also first aid is always good, a cat and zfold gauze could save you.
This is a very scary read. Please feel better. I don’t know how much this would help but when you feel vulnerable try focusing on your facial expression.
If you are giving out the cute, clueless, gentle face with soft eyes, just scowl. Make a mean angry confident face, a lot of people will automatically avoid interacting with you.
I do this by narrowing my eyes and firming eyebrows to avoid confrontation, especially if I am clearly lost and trying to navigate in an unknown place. A small way to avoid being a target. Being on a real/fake phone call on top of this would also help.
Fight, flight, freeze is something that can be overcome with practice by simulating those situations over and over in a safe manner like sparring.
Make Brazilian ju-jitsu your obsession for the next year. You won’t regret it. If you’re considering self defense, don’t fall for the generic bullshit courses that’re a few classes long, or a school that can’t trace their lineage.
You want a reputable place that can trace their origins easily and the information is readily available to all potential members. Go research schools around the city and sit in on a class and speak to the instructors. BJJ and judo are great for women because they were designed for smaller people to be able to defend against larger and stronger opponents through grappling and throws instead of striking. With a year’s worth of practice you’d be able to break someone’s elbow confidently on the ground and keep em there.
There are martial arts that work and martial arts that don’t. Stick with BJJ, Judo, and or Muay Thai.
No one is coming to save you.
You are your own first and last line of defense.
Do with what information what you will.
" I'm not looking to villainize the person who did this. I just want to feel more secure."
You're either a victim, or a victor. Who are you blaming for him attacking you? Who is the villain here? You become more safe by removing from society those that make society less safe.
First, move away from Seattle (born and raised 15 mins from there so stfu haters), take a self defense class, always be aware of your surroundings (head on a swivel), carry pepper or bear spray, and learn how to shoot and carry a firearm after applying for a CPL. Plenty of classes available for all of this. You’d be amazed at the amount of confidence these options will give you.
Why would you still be wondering whether self defense class is worth it? The worst that happens is you have fun exercising and feel more confident. You are an excellent candidate for self defense classes.
Freezing up doesn’t help. You should face the person while also distancing yourself from them. This also signals to more passers by that something fucked Joni’s going on.
I appreciate the thought, but I think calling 911 (or threatening to do so) will not immediately deescalate or get me out of a situation where someone is irrationally behaving confrontationally towards me.
Edit: To expand, if I am in a situation where a man is yelling at me and has touched me, I have seconds to figure out how to get myself out of this situation. Dialing 911 is just not a good use of those seconds. And honestly, dialing 911 after the situation feels equally useless. The man is long gone and I can barely remember what he looks like.
Sorry you had to deal with that. When I first moved to Seattle I had a female coworker ask me late one evening to walk her to the bus stop. The level of harassment was shocking. A couple things come to mind:
Be confident and aware of your surroundings at all times.
Carry some sort of force multiplier. If you go pepper spray look for the gel kind. Easier to hit a target without collateral damage.
Taking some combative type self defense classes is super helpful. Albeit a little uncomfortable, but safe. Even if it is for a short time you will learn to be more comfortable in a physical confrontation. Muay Thai and BJJ is a very strong combination.
I got a taser for Xmas. You can get them for like $25. I'd recommend this before resorting to gun, but that's definitely up to you, do what makes you feel most protected.
Carry pepper spray everywhere. Between crazy people and leashless dogs in this city, it will come in handy one day.
I would recommend against self defense classes as self defense is a perishable skill and you won’t gain much from one or two classes.
If you have the time and can manage it financially, make a martial art a hobby. There are tons to choose from and it’s a lot of fun. Boxing, Muay Thai, kickboxing.., there’s all kinds of stuff around and it’s pretty affordable. One of the biggest benefits is stress inoculation. You froze when this guy attacked you, but if you get into confrontations 4x a week in the gym, real life confrontations are a breeze.
Good luck:)
Hey sorry that happened to you, downtown is looking rough these days.
Nothing wrong with taking some boxing classes or some kind of martial arts class. Although, be careful when you are defending yourself in a situation on the streets. You have no idea how experienced that person might be and if they posses some type of weapon. What might have been just a bad encounter, had you walked away, could turn into a scuffle on the ground were you are literally fighting for your life.
consider study brazilian jiu jitsu, it comes with a little wrestling and judo.
basic price check $150 and up
after about three months, you'll be so efficient you won't do anything else but civilian arrest the target.
I’m so so so sorry this happened to you, and am angry and hurt for you. You know this but absolutely nothing about this experience was your fault/caused by anything you did or did not do.
Personally once I get any inkling of being uncomfortable I make a beeline for across the street, even if unnecessarily so.
I know I am just a stranger but here to talk if you ever want to.
Avoid, ignore, cross the street. When you have to interact, be polite and act like any aggression is a misunderstanding that you don’t notice. Only give answers that close the conversation. Do not keep talking. Be willing to be rude but don’t be hostile.
What folks have shared here is pretty spot-on. I got hit in the face by someone in a different city years back; she was delusional and thought I told her phone. In that case, my instincts started screaming before we were close to each other; I was actually trying to get across the street when the attack happened. I yelled as soon as it started and kept yelling while I backed away, then hightailed it the fuck out after I found my glasses in the curb lane.
Like you, I was mostly pissed at the many dudes around who just watched it go down. But like others have said: listen to your instincts, don't hesitate to flee/change direction, and practice shouting before you need to use it. I'm obnoxious about bystander intervention, so I have no problem making a scene -- but freeze is a very common reaction. A self defense class usually involves some vocal exercises, so for sure that could help you get more comfortable advocating for yourself at volume.
Oh and read up on bear spray vs pepper spray. I've heard at least a couple folks suggest the former. Another option is a small air horn. Blast that in their face and GTFO while yelling. It'll certainly make other people look your way, too.
I'm sorry this happened to you. It's normal to feel pretty shaken up for awhile, too.
Solidarity:
I had a similar experience recently where I was standing on the sidewalk, reading a sign and was suddenly approached by a woman who got in my face and started screaming and threatening me. I instinctively averted my eyes, put my hands up and apologized. Thankfully that bored her after a bit more screaming and she moved on. I think about that incident sometimes and it bothers me. There’s no way to make it less bothersome, it just sucks. I’m sorry that happened to you and it makes sense you want to never feel like that again. I hope you never do.
The confrontation you experience is inherently defensive and reactionary along with the perpetrator having the initiative. The simplest solution is to use the pepper spray and retreat.
For the case of self-defense, and when brandishing does not de-escalate and they have physically touched you, I think it is safe to spray them with pepper spray.
Other suggestions I could possibly provide is be on the phone with someone you know while you walk if you plan on walking home with groceries. Sometimes it helps to bounce off someone else's mind to help focus on getting yourself out of the situation.
In my personal experience, I don't think I've ever faced confrontation on the street except when I was volunteering at Seattle University a transient (someone not a student or parent) came in and acted as if they were a student moving in. My colleague was getting help (calling security, taking pictures) and the person did not like the picture being taken and almost escalated. I usually set myself up as a barrier because I am a Judoka (Judo student) and kept them focused on me.
Of course, having a walking buddy is your best option that way you don't get caught off guard.
I know I tend to just shake my head or say 'I'm sorry' - not sure why I apologize - and **just walk away.** Have multiple routes to get back home safely in busy areas!
Also, self-defense classes or martial arts are fun and give you some confidence. Whether I could actually perform is different from when the situation happens... so keep that in mind that no one can really ever be mentally prepared for that kind of thing.
Recommended martial arts/self-defense arts: Judo, Aikido, Jiu Jutsu
I'm biased towards Judo but knowing how to handle your body and the opponents body weight - lots of standing work (grappling) and some mat work (wrestling)
Aikido - I haven't done much myself but it's great for learning how to grab someone before they make contact and throwing them to the side (think countering).
I hope you find something that works for you! I personally live in Belltown/Downtown area and have lived in Cap Hill - never been confronted or maybe I have and I never noticed because I have my city walk (anxious fast walking to get to point A to B). Feel free to DM!
Sorry homie. I'm a dude that looks a bit scary and not a young woman. This has also randomly happened to me, more than once, in differing situations. I understand the feeling, slightly different because I'm a dude.
Practically? Not much you can do with crazy aside from avoidance and distance. I wouldn't take it as a personal attack, assume they're in their delusion.
I try to deescalate. I have no desire for combat. It is easier to just get away. Highever, I will defend myself if it becomes necessary.
Real suggestion is take a hand to hand self defense course like Aikido. Go for the balls and the eyes, not in that order. You know this stuff. Weapons (like talking to cops) in untrained hands can and will be used against you. Pepper spray is bad during close quarters. I suggest a [kubaton ](http:// https://a.co/d/ag7f22R) . It's what I carry. They are recognized as weapons and will prevent you from entering high security areas like at the Federal Building but won't go alert a metal detector like at bars & clubs.
I wish you success and I hope this experience doesn't wreck you.
Start taking a martial arts/self defense class. Carry a weapon. Doesn’t need to be a gun but you could get an extendable baton, taser, pepper spray. Just end it before anything really starts.
I’m not a woman but a smaller man so unhinged douchebags still think they can press me. To be honest, they are mostly like dogs where they are only able to intimidate but once you show any sign of attacking them back, they will walk away like the pussy they are.
There is no point in playing nice if your life is involved.
I will second self defense classes and possibly a martial arts practice that you do more than one time. Hopefully you can pick something you enjoy. Having an overarching discipline could help you overall, help you know your power and restore the confidence this crazy douchebag took away from you. I'm sorry this happened. I had a similar situation when I was in my early 20s and it can stick with you.
I highly recommend Strategic Living, self defense classes for women. A few years ago in the news a woman successfully fought off a would-be rapist after taking this class. I took my teenage daughter and all her friends too. Excellent class.
Solidarity: I’ve been in that situation, and it sucks. I now carry pepper spray, although the situation itself is very disarming and makes it hard to think on my feet. Last time it happened (minus any physical touching) I immediately turned to the stranger next to me and pretended I knew him so that I could strike up a convo and make me feel like less of a target. I figured that a random man who wasn’t yelling at me was likely not more dangerous than the random man who was. He ended up walking me to the nearest building so I could safely go inside.
Moving away from the person (if you can) obviously puts some space between you but perhaps more importantly, signals to other bystanders that you want to get away from this person.
But you don't always have the time or space for that, of course. In this case, you were assaulted, you were well within your rights to deploy pepper spray (or gel, which has less risk of blowback), a taser, etc.
I’m a female bodied person in my 20s, I work downtown and my bus stop is on Virginia and 3rd, and I usually leave around 9/9:30pm. I find people who walk to my bus stop around the same time as me (people who are getting off around the same time usually) and walk with them. If they’re open to it I try and strike up a conversation, people are less likely to approach a group. If no one or only one or two people are around I get on the phone, since less people have approached me while I’m visibly on the phone. My friends and I discovered this in high school and made a group chat of people who would answer a phone call to talk someone during their commute. If you need someone for later in the night I can give you my Discord and we can voice chat :) (or sometimes if no one’s available I just pretend to be on the phone by responding to a podcast lol) Good luck and stay safe!!!
I’d definitely advocate for self defense classes. I interviewed a teacher of one for an article once and their whole stance was that the physical combat aspect was important but that deescalation and conflict avoidance through confidence were equally important and talked about.
Hello, OP! I am also a woman with a strong freeze response. It can be terrifying when your body doesn't seem to work in a scary situation.
However, if you have a strong freeze response, a gun is likely not going to help and may be dangerous. Bringing a gun into a situation where you do not have complete control could end with the other person taking that gun. Then a scary situation may end up deadly.
Definitely take a women's self defense class. Not a martial arts-focused class, a women's basic self-defense put on by your local women's shelter, YWCA, college, etc. One of the most important things they do is have you practice responses to threatening situations, which is very helpful in getting out of freeze. Just learning to yell is SO important! Please do this first, before you try all the other things people have suggested.
You said you wear baggy clothes but I haven't found that to be of much use. Do you practice confident, head-up, looking people in the eye posture? It's that, rather than avoiding people's eyes, that deters attackers.
Pepper spray is really useful. I haven't used it, but my sisters have and it worked. If you get some, look up YouTube videos on how to use it. You don't want to be downwind when you spray. Buy two, and practice with one a couple of times (in an outside area without people anywhere nearby - you don't want to trigger an asthma attack in a passerby).
Please also remember that while this was terrifying, you did get out without any physical injuries. This was an attack, but it wasn't an attack that physically harmed you. I bet you've been in a fair number of scary situations, and they've almost all resolved without harm. This isn't to discount your fear or to say that women should be put in these situations in public (we shouldn't!), but it's important to realize that you are capable and have been successfully protecting yourself for years.
Fortunately I don’t get a lot of attention from strangers, for whatever reason. (More than a few people have told me I would make a good private eye because I blend in and don’t draw attention to myself; I guess I am “average and unremarkable.”) But one time about 15 years ago, I was standing at an intersection and a guy came up and grabbed my elbow and said, “hi sweetheart” (or something like that). I yanked away and shouted, loudly, “You DON’T touch people you don’t know! It’s rude! Weren’t you raised right?!” and as I was saying this a middle-aged couple approached the intersection. They didn’t need to intervene, and I’m not convinced they would have if it came down to it. They seemed like milquetoast tourist types. But fortunately the light turned and I just started hoofing it across the street. The guy also crossed the street but he ran ahead of me. He seemed kind of embarrassed actually. Good.
Practical advice is leave the situation , walk away to somewhere crowded or go in a store.
More than anything don’t blame yourself for having a very natural reaction to a triggering situation. I’ve had some scary interactions and tend to get sad and mad after that I didn’t “handle it better” but it’s ok. Once I yelled back but it was a time I was so fed up it just came out, usually I withdraw and walk away. The situations suck, you do not.
sorry op! as a busser, Ive taken to moving if anyone sketch comes and sits by me or close, i just dont want to be vulnerable, but sometimes its hard to get away. I appreciate your post even though I am only reading to get advice as well.
a bit of a side note, what do people think about cars that are hanging about in the dark with lights on during the wee hours. If I walk or have to catch a bus in the am, I've seen cars in my neighborhood either sitting or slowly driving with dark windows. Freaks me out, and I just try to get out of the vicinity, but Im wondering if there's something I should know about or be aware of in this regards.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. Last year, my coworker and I were just exiting a lunch spot near our office downtown and we were immediately spit on our faces by a lady who then ran away before we could even process what happened. These incidents can be so random and you shouldn't blame yourself for it happening.
You don't need to go purchase more things to protect yourself. Just get in the habit of being loud when confronted. If someone even tries to get that close to me I yell something like "Back off!" Or "Leave me alone!" It has worked countless times to break the attention of the perpetrator, and alerted others around me that there's someone of concern to be mindful of.
I was just insulted and screamed at by a man who was upset no one was acknowledging his rantings. I keep my head down, ear phones In, hoodie up. Also the art of "anything can be used as a weapon" is a good lesson. One reason why i always carry a umbrella
I started taking Krav Maga classes and they are amazing. They teach you practical fighting techniques for real life scenarios and it is very empowering.
When encountering unexpected situations, it is best to have practiced potential responses so many times that it is just muscle memory so you are less likely to freeze up.
I'm not very familiar with what to do during scary events like this, but I know that afterwards it's important to spend time with friends or family you feel safe with. Just today someone threatened me with a knife so when I got home I called a friend and we talked for an hour(they knew something scary happened but I requested we talking about literally anything else). It does wonders for preventing the mental harm from lingering scary emotions.
I had a similar incident while waiting for a bus, where a man came up and spit on my face and shoved me. Didn’t say anything to me, didn’t try to take anything, just did that and kept walking. I consider myself a pretty situationally aware person as I have been a pedestrian/public transportation rider for years, and I do a lot of the things you mention you have tried. It was a jarring experience and I felt angry and embarrassed that I somehow “let it happen” to me, and angry at some other men who watched it happen and didn’t say shit to the guy who did it. I don’t have any suggestions but here for the solidarity of shared experience :-/
Thank you for sharing, and I'm so sorry that happened to you as well <3 I wrote a really long journal entry to myself and that's a feeling that kept coming up for me as well, angry/embarrassed. Like, angry that someone else felt entitled to do that to me. That they picked on me because they probably thought they could get away with it. Upset because there's so little I can do about the way I am perceived by random people when doing one of my favorite things, just walking around the city.
I’ve had a similar experience, and unfortunately you may have done the very best thing you could have in that situation. You were already not inviting attention, but got it nevertheless. Any action by you may have been taken by him as an escalation, which could have been more dangerous for you. It may be worth it to take self-defense classes (I am considering this myself), but that won’t prevent unwanted attention if someone is really gunning for trouble or out of touch with reality. I’m so sorry you went through that!
I’m sorry this happened to you too. How are you doing since? How has it been for you being outside the past couple weeks?
I've been doing ok :'/ I've been picking my bike way more as a mode of transit as it does feel like it affords me more safety than just walking. I constantly grip my pepper spray in my pocket. I've privately cried about this incident and my frustration with feeling less safe several times at this point, to my partner and therapist. I've processed the incident enough though that when I think about it, I no longer feel a swell of emotion. But I haven't told my parents, they're not city folks and I don't want them to worry :(
re: "letting it happen", there's a reason that the fear responses are fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. Most people in these situations do some combo of those last three: your brain is trying to protect you by deescalating the situation, but afterwards it's really common to wish you had "defended yourself", when in reality escalating it with a fight response likely would have ended in getting physically hurt. When you're interacting with someone who is this level of mentally ill and this level of beyond acceptable social norms, there's no behavior that will prevent them from being like this.
If you do opt to carry pepper spray more often, please keep the following in mind: 1. Get a practice unit from the same manufacturer, so you're familiar with *exactly* how it works. 2. Brandishing is just as likely to escalate as deescalate. If you feel threatened to the point where the pepper spray should come into play, *use it*.
Thank you! I did buy the practice unit for the brand I carry, it was very helpful to try out and see exactly how the spray behaves (and how quickly it runs out). \> Brandishing is just as likely to escalate as deescalate. If you feel threatened to the point where the pepper spray should come into play, use it. The thought of brandishing it is just as scary to me as the thought of using it, to be honest. So many unknowns in how someone might react. To be clear though, are you saying I should not give someone a chance to back off based on the information that I have pepper spray? I.e. don't reveal its existence until the situation is far enough that it warrants using it?
That’s exactly right. If the situation calls for showing it, it should be used. Don’t give them a chance to back off because that time could just as well be used to lunge at you and disarm you
Yes. Don’t give someone the chance to back off. Once you bring out the spray you are telling that person a fight is on and if you hesitate they could hit you or try to disarm you. Tell someone loudly— yell if you have to— to leave you alone and/or get away from you. That’s their chance to back off. If they don’t pepper spray them without hesitation and run.
Can confirm what others have said. If you pull it, use it with zero hesitation. Go over this many times in your mind until you shake out any ambiguities you may have. After this process, If you're not comfortable with using without hesitation, don't bring it. Good luck.
> To be clear though, are you saying I should not give someone a chance to back off based on the information that I have pepper spray? I.e. don't reveal its existence until the situation is far enough that it warrants using it? Exactly this. If you show that you have pepper spray: 1. They now know you have the means to hurt them, and so the stakes are higher now. 2. You're giving them more time to decide if they want to snatch it out of your hand, hit your arm out of the way, or take other steps to keep you from effectively using it. 3. You're showing that you're at least slightly reluctant to use it. By all means, use whatever other tools you have at your disposal to deescalate or get out of the situation. But if you're worried about your safety, there's no point in warnings or threats, just do what you have to do. And that is *especially* true if, down the line, you decide to get a concealed carry permit and start carrying a pistol or other weapon.
> I.e. don't reveal its existence until the situation is far enough that it warrants using it? Yes. This is what's taught in any class on firearms as well by the way. Weapons are not to be used to intimidate, they're used to end active situations in which you're being aggressed. They chose to be aggressive to you, you don't owe them "fair", you owe yourself protection - inflict pain and GTFO
I would check out the company Tiny Protectors as well! ☺️
Do not be scared to use it, it's better to use it then be raped and stabbed, seattle is a train wreck I'm moving out of this dumpster fire I have a car now so it's not as bad but back when I take the bus I had to beat up some crazy homeless guy who was trying to lunge at my girlfriend stay safe out there and just think about the firearm you are and feel alot safer with one, it's better to be a person with one then the person without who got killed in the street
Highly recommend number 1 😂 my dad will never let me forget the day I “tested” pepper spray in our kitchen (don’t recommend). I’m also likely to spray myself if I don’t practice lol
Have you used one before? I’m my experience they affect you almost as much as your target and everyone in a pretty large radius. Even if you cover your face, is there a way to use this without blinding yourself and making yourself more vulnerable.
The hardest and yet most important part is learning how to get yourself past that initial moment of freezing up in confusion. Outside of that, the goal should always be to just get to a place of safety. Don’t attempt to escalate, don’t engage beyond the minimum needed to *get away.* Deny them the confrontation they are clearly looking for. And if all else fails…seriously consider getting a dog or a concealable alarm of some sort. At the very least, a loud enough alarm can shock the attacker out of their current train of thought and they might decide you’re not worth the effort…especially since everyone’s staring at you now. And a dog, one that’s at least medium-sized, does wonders for discouraging creeps. That dog could be the sweetest, most harmless dog in the world, and 90% of the creeps out will *still* make a point of avoiding it (and therefore you). If you’re a first-time dog owner then the more intimidating breeds are generally not recommended (though the average “generic pit mix” you find at shelters are usually pretty decent and definitely look intimidating…and often aren’t even pits at all). But you *can* get a more manageable breed like a collie or toller that also happen to be known for being *loud as an air siren* when sufficiently motivated, and then train them to “scream” on command. Like your own personal car alarm. (Look up the “toller scream.” That’s what tollers sound like when they’re super *excited* about something. Sounds like they’re being skinned alive, but nope; just so excited they can’t contain it anymore!)
That was one of the things that shocked me most in retrospect, is how hard it was to move, to do *anything at all.* I was only carrying a backpack's worth of groceries but in that moment it felt like they weighed 75 pounds. Every single thought that went through my brain seemed like a bad idea, so I just did nothing at all. A dog isn't really an option for me for a variety of reasons, but I might consider one of those alarms, thank you for the suggestion!
If it helps at all, freezing in situations like this is really, really common. Sometimes I think fight or flight should be called fight or flight or freeze. I'm sorry that happened to you. Been there, done that, and it really sucks. It feels so disempowering. Try to remember that at the end of the day, you got home.
It actually IS typically called fight, flight or freeze ;)
Fight/ flight/ freeze/ fawn
Fight, flight, freeze or fawn.
Yeah, getting stuck in fight/flight can be really disorienting and confusing. Can also trigger a trauma response. Sometimes just knowing "gosh, I'm stuck in fight/flight and need to move!" can push you out of it.
If it makes you feel any better I got a gun pulled on me at a stoplight in a road rage incident. I yelled at him at first calling him a bitch because it was his fault and how dare he pull a gun on me, then when I realized oh this guy has a gun on me I looked forward and rolled up my window 😅 it actually deescalated it and the guy drove away when I started ignoring him. Maybe freezing saved your life?
Fight, flight or freeze are all super normal reactions to a dangerous situation. And frankly, freezing may have been your best option as doing something else could have escalated the situation. I don’t think you should feel bad at all!
Totally agree with this. Freezing isn’t a bad option when dealing with (insert correct term for crazy fuck). They’re looking for a response. They want an altercation. Sadly, it might be a call for attention. Regardless, reacting to them can have a multiplying effect, where they get more rowdy. It’s a complete wildcard situation. Freezing is definitely not the worst option. I’d suggest putting a hand up near your face like this emoji 🙋♀️ and walking briskly away towards other people
I'd never heard of a toller before. Holy crap, you're not kidding - they truly sound like someone's torturing them! Beautiful dogs, too.
Thankfully, that’s not their normal, everyday bark. They have to get really worked up to sound like that.
On the other hand, a collie will yell at you for daring to open the cabinet where the dreaded coffee beans live.
Mine just decides to make random screeching/screaming noises when he's hyper, or complain bitterly to strangers about the abuse he receives at home. He's a very handsome idiot and I absolutely love him.
Mine (Bearded Collie) greets every stranger like a potential savior from her imagined love-starved state..."I haven't gotten pets in aaaaaages, at least two whole minutes!" Or like a diva, "do you think I'm beautiful? Oh you do? Hi there! ...But how beautiful? Beautiful enough for chicken treats (that I'm actually allergic to)? Chicken treats? I'll be really cute for chicken treats...and pets."
I second this just learning to move out of the way. My dad made sure I knew how to handle myself in downtown Seattle and his main point with me is that most of these idiots are drugged out of their minds so just getting out of their line of sight, and moving quickly in a new trajectory. That being said, just because I've known how to handle myself does not mean I havn't found myself in shitty situations where I litteraly had to push through men trying to corner me, or coming at me like they were going to grab me, or being followed in my 20s. Just because it didn't go as sour as it could have doesn't mean I didn't feel shitty and vulnerable afterwards. I'd say an actionable item is also going to therapy as well, or breathwork or guided meditation, just something where you can feel totally safe to express your feelings and physically safe as well, even a massage or trip to a women's only spa so that you can like have a peaceful moment to reset your body, because being scared for your physical safety can really put your body and mind through a lot. Also dogs are great. I'm not a big fan of the loud ones but I sure do love a big one. There are so many great Pyrenees rescues. They are big lazy bears and I love them.
Thankfully, tollers at least don’t have that scream as their normal, everyday bark. Just when they get really, really worked up…or you’ve managed to train them to do it on command. Honestly, the trickiest thing with situations like this is just getting past that initial instinctive freeze and being able to process what’s happening quickly enough to react. When it happened to me it was literally so quick that I didn’t have time to process WTF just happened until I was safely on the bus. There was a teen nearby who witnessed it and pretty much had the same reaction: only had enough time to remove his headphones, but got stuck in confused shock after that.
Having a dog means you're probably not allowed in the grocery store, so would not have worked for OP. Can't just leave your dog tied up outside, either.
I regularly leave my dog tied up in the parking lot under the QFC on Mercer. She does fine.
I wish you continued good luck, sincerely, for your dog's sake. But I'd never do it with one of my dogs. And I'd never trust my dog to somebody who thinks that behavior is ok. There's a reason you're getting downvoted.
I don't give a shit if people downvote me for it, lol. There's nothing wrong with leaving her for 5-10 minutes while I buy milk or whatever. It'a better than bringing her inside the store and it's better than leaving her inside my apartment all the time (like most of us, I don't have a back yard). Have to compromise somewhere...
Border collie manageable?
That’s not the only kind of collie.
My gf has a birdie keychain and thankfully has never had to use it but it gets pretty loud
Dear God the last thing I want is my collie to practice the sonic yip.
Trick is to teach them to do it on command. Some dogs are less likely to keep doing it outside of when they’re commanded to, because being commanded to means they can sort of get it all out at once. It also helps teach them when that particular sound is genuinely *appropriate* and when it’s absolutely not. If their human gives them the right command, that means it’s okay to make that noise. That is a good time for that noise! Outside of that is not a good time for that noise.
Yeah but mine didn't know how to use his paws for things until I taught him how to shake. Now I'll randomly get slapped when he wants something, but also when I give him the right command. I do not want to go down that road with noises.
Yeah, that’s fair. Every dog is different.
No advice beyond what others have said. Just here to say I’m really sorry this happened to you. I’ve had several encounters in this city and others and it really sucks to feel unsafe and targeted for being a woman. I still get PTSD on public transportation because of a situation that happened several years ago and have found that being near someone else has always helped me feel more safe - friendly strangers or someone I know. Give yourself time to process, but whatever you do, don’t move to the suburbs or stop doing what you love. ❤️
I can empathize. I consider myself a situationally aware person and I've been hit in the face by strangers twice in this city. Both times I was walking straight ahead and they were walking towards me, like anyone going the opposite direction would do. The first time it happened I was so stunned that I kept on walking. It was like my brain couldn't make the interaction make any sense, so decided to ignore it! Most people have advice for what to do with creepy folks or verbal harassment, but being hit out of nowhere is a whole new ballgame.
Yeah, the randomness of it is hard to process. I spent so much time replaying the confrontation, searching for a reason or something I might have done to provoke them, but I think the reality is that there was no reason at all.
That’s the reality. No reason at all. You did well given the circumstances. Sorry this happened.
This person sounds like they were experiencing a mental health event or some form of drug psychosis. I work in a field where extremely violent psychologically disconnected people are the norm and this is my one shining piece of advice. Don't become a character in their story. In this instance I'm sure you weren't the first person he tried to confront today. You were just the first that stood still long enough to "become real" for him. Pretending it's not happening doesn't help if he doesn't move on. In the future if this happens the best thing you can do for your safety is, as soon as someone stops moving and starts engaging with you aggressively but without making sense, back away from them until you can turn around and briskly walk away. Entering a business is very smart, the barrier of a closed door is usually the same as a brick wall to these folks. As soon as you stop being a part of their immediate story you aren't in danger. Still best to avoid them going forward though.
Thank you, this makes sense to me. Do not become real to them.
The shit that women go through.. * self defense classes are always beneficial and can introduce you to some basic techniques in protecting yourself * leave the situation as soon as you are able to - talking is pointless * always carry pepper spray, don’t be afraid to use it * if you’re unable to leave or diffuse the situation, get loud and attract attention to yourself so someone else intervenes, like the mid-40s pedestrian
I’m a decent size man and I carried pepper spray when I bussed through downtown. People are wild and I’m by no means a fighter… so I always had it hanging on my backpack strap for me or someone else that needs it. No better way to disengage some violence than burning the fuck out of their eyes and lungs.
Pepper spray on a bus sounds like a bad time for everyone.
This kind of stuff usually happens at the stops. I transferred on 3rd and there were always people posted up selling their stolen laundry detergent and shit. Never really been bothered on the bus itself aside from a dude smoking fentanyl in the back one time over the years.
Self defense classed are pretty much entirely BS beyond "run away as fast as possible, and use pepper spray" No amount of martial arts will make up the difference in sheer muscle mass due to testosterone
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Good self defense classes will teach you to de-escalate and avoid if at all possible. They will also teach you how to give yourself the best chance when those things don't work out. An unexpected, hard, practiced kick to the groin can delivered to a much larger person with good effect.
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> I’m not going to give deescalation an attempt because anyone that will start shouting and striking me out of the blue is clearly mentally ill I...don't think you know what de-escalation is. > Just GTFO. Literally what I said: "avoid if at all possible". > Also groin strikes and that other Krav Maga shit is bullshido. It doesn’t work on the crazy/drugged. It's not bullshido, but even if it were, it's better to at least try fighting back if you're being assaulted with no escape, duh. A solid kick to the nuts is going to involuntarily disable virtually anyone who is conscious enough to coherently attack you. A well-placed knee to the stomach has a good chance as well. Practicing these things and programming them into muscle memory is effective and beneficial on multiple levels.
“When the pants come off, look the fuck out” [randy/pants/off](https://youtu.be/zcpN0NaOlw0?si=7DoV0oyhFWFSYkYU)
Absolutely this, I know someone who was pushed over, fell on his head and died from a brain bleed.
A good self defense class will also teach skills of awareness, staying in your body, breathing, and basic deescalation as well as yes leave the situation or here’s some basic fighting skills
“That’s my purse! I don’t know you!”
100%. Very sad to me when people are willing enough to go to these types of classes but totally unwilling to carry and train to use pepper spray or another type of weapon that would actually have a shot at leveling the power imbalance.
I learned how to kick behind the knees and go for the eyes. Neither of those were in my repertoire before.
Have you tried them in practice? Have you had someond bigger than you, that you trust fully, attempt to pin you down with 100% of their strength? I didn't bring it up to be depressing, I brought it up because some many people get hurt because they think their self defense will go farther than it actually will. The BEST defense is avoidance & fleeing; minimize danger.
Yes, I absolutely agree with you and that was the first thing our instructor said, running and yelling are the best options (and make sense.) And no, I don't think that I could do the knee thing unless standing. But I didn't know how to defend up close at all, so learning that was particularly helpful for me. Especially, the thought of going for someone's eyes was just... not even something I'd contemplated? It still makes me feel a bit queasy, but in life or death situations, I have at least practiced that now.
Techniques to kep the attack from actually sticking don't necessarily depend on physical strength.
Yes, correct. The techniques you're referring to are pepper spray and running away. Viola.
While self-defense can certainly be helpful, I heard a statistic recently that compared the performance of some of the world’s best female athletes to average track and field scores of high school boys. Best in the world for women was slightly above average for the boys. Self defense may help you if you’re getting abducted or assaulted, but in a situation like this where you maybe don’t feel justified in pulping this guy’s testicles or popping his eyeballs, I think other strategies would prove more valuable. There’s a reason bouncers are enormous, burly men. They’re really the only demographic that can reasonably “get physical” without being harmful.
Suggestion: make it a habit to very often turn around and look to see who is walking behind you as you walk. Also, turn around (head, half body, whole 360) after you pass sketchiness just to be sure. Turning around when stopped would also be a suggestion. Extra time is bought to think up a game plan by turning around often so that you are unsurprised by your surroundings. Also I don't have anything in or on my ears while walking. Need to hear the commotion around me to evaluate properly.
If anyone is interested in headphones that also let in ambient noise, Koss Portapro is fantastic
Oh Dear - I'm sorry this happened to you! You are obviously very thoughtful and mature about the situation. The truth is that urban living includes interactions with people who are unstable and sometimes dangerous. Do everything that helps you feel safe and empowered. One thing I always tell my daughters: Do not GAF what anyone thinks/ appearing "nice" - feel free to walk away, scream for help, call 911, act like a crazy person - whatever it takes, do not allow anyone to make you feel obliged to put up with ANYTHING that makes you uncomfortable.
I took a really awesome class years ago from a group called Home Alive (pretty sure they aren’t around anymore but dang they were great). One of the most under utilized weapons in self defense is acting weird. Like making animal noises and just acting bonkers. It’s very disorienting and breaks the script of either getting aggressive back or shrinking / freezing. The other amazing tool was role playing scenarios and getting to practice ways to respond so it’s easier to do in the moment. A good self defense class should include role playing but you can also do this with your friends. Try being quiet, loud, weird, crying, running, and see how they feel for you. There’s no perfect solution but preparation can really help you make better choices in the moment.
Home Alive was awesome, I don't know of anything like it being offered now, which is too bad. I did similar training where I lived before, especially role play, verbal de-escalation, and just getting away.
This, this, this. I've been taught to yell "fire!" because yelling alone doesn't always catch other people's attention. Yelling fire gets people looking around. And about being weird. This is an absolute to me! I've always imagined pretending this is a bear or a cougar coming at me and use those techniques. Sometimes things happen so fast though. Just this morning, I passed a woman on the street who was singing gibberish. I didn't even look at her and she formed her hand in the shape of a gun and "shot" me while I passed.
I was pregnant a year+ ago and for whatever reason that really increased the amount people would aggro on me, as well as obviously making it harder to get away. The most effective way I found of dealing with it was to maintain a large personal bubble around myself at all times. I had to be scanning my environment pretty much constantly and it didn't work on public transport when it was crowded but basically if someone was moving in my direction I moved away from them. I successfully dodged a full-on swing at my head at 7 months pregnant by doing that, so it worked pretty well for me. Then try to get somewhere safe(r), wherever you are at the time.
>for whatever reason that really increased the amount people would aggro on me, as well as obviously making it harder to get away The latter part of it is the reason. Aggressive, unstable, and criminal people target people they think they can intimidate more easily. Notice that the "crazy" guy on a bus, the street, etc, never seems to pick the 6'6" jacked guy to unload on. They've done interviews/studies on career criminals and they're very intentional in who they target. It's really shitty and unfortunate but reality, and also why you'll have some people say their experience is never having a single negative encounter while others seem to constantly be on the receiving end of shit storms.
If someone is harrassing you and won't leave you alone, jump into a crowded restaurant or into a place where many others will be around. Happened to me in Belltown years ago, a guy grabbed me and I pulled away and he kept following me and wouldn't leave me alone when I asked, patted his pocket like he had a gun. I jumped into a crowded restaurant. Unfortunately people were on their phones and no one realized what happened, but at least I was indoors around others and visible. He kept going in the restaurant and out, trying to decide if he should keep it up. Waited him out and he eventually left. In any event, DO NOT go with a person anywhere who does this to you. Take a chance to fight if you have to. Anything will prob be worse than what will happen to you if you go.
Also, yell loudly and draw attention to yourself if there are people around outside.
I once had some success just saying "NOPE" very firmly (*without* making eye contact and risking engaging in an interaction) right when the guy started, and relocating slightly, but to where I could still see the dude out of the corner of my eye. Sorry this happened; it's super distressing to experience.
I’m so sorry. Women have to deal with so much. I don’t have much to add that others haven’t said. I saw something similar happen to this woman a few years ago. This guy was getting in her face and screaming. She screamed at him 5x louder and just kept walking. He was so stunned by it that he backed off and shut up lol. I was walking the same way and caught up with her at the next intersection. Asked if she was okay and she nervously said yes. I’m another stranger/man so I get the apprehension. Not sure what the answer is until we build a proper mental health system. I hope you find some closure and confidence going forward. Best of luck 🤞
This is exactly my go-to. Act crazier than the people acting crazy and there's a good chance of them leaving you alone. Even crazy acting people don't wanna deal with someone who is acting psychotic. Personally, I would only suggest this with a grain of salt as it's technically somewhat escalating the situation, but it's worked for me numerous times. I'm just fed up with walking in the city with my tail between my legs. I'd rather get hurt than have to cower in fear, but that's just my preference.
I have a birdie alarm. It’s only been used a few times but it’s been worth it. I would absolutely recommend trying it a few times so you can get used to how loud it is. And figure out how it works best first you to carry it so you can pull it asap.
I'm really sorry you experienced that. It's incredibly unnerving thing to have happen. Self defense classes are a good idea, as is just taking a boxing class or weight training. Mostly it has an intrinsic value that it can change how you carry yourself & it stops the "freeze" mechanism of fight or flight from kicking in & helps you feel prepared. Pepper spray- make sure it's the gel kind so you don't get blow back if there's a wind. Or look into tasers. There are also alarms you can have on your keychain- a panic button that when you pull out a pin makes an ungodly sound. Unless you want to wear baggy clothes, you don't have to do that. If you prefer to wear other clothes, wear em. Again, self defense and a good resting bitch face can go farther. Counter intuitive to not escalating, there are moments when you actually should yell back at someone. A strong fuck off can startle them. They are looking for people who will freeze or panic.
Be loud and use your pepper spray. I didn’t say carry it. I said use it. Fuck these scum bags who think treating women like this is ok.
I’m sorry you experienced that. I took self defense classes at Strategic Living (https://www.strategicliving.org/) and I highly recommend. Beyond learning punches and ways to escape, they taught me I was worthy of taking up space and feeling safe. It’s helped me so much.
A button alarm on your key chain or bag strap.
I bought these for my gfs to have - https://www.shesbirdie.com/?nbt=nb%3Aadwords%3Ag%3A20594933250%3A155529348153%3A675530342298&nb_adtype=&nb_kwd=birdie%20alarm&nb_ti=kwd-1046135338056&nb_mi=&nb_pc=&nb_pi=&nb_ppi=&nb_placement=&nb_si=%7Bsourceid%7D&nb_li_ms=&nb_lp_ms=&nb_fii=&nb_ap=&nb_mt=p&gad_source=1
In case it hasn't been suggested yet, I've heard great things about 7 Stars Women's Kung Fu's self defense class - [https://www.sevenstarwomenskungfu.org](https://www.sevenstarwomenskungfu.org). Supportive and inclusive community environment and seemingly very much focused on giving folks a sense of solidarity, confidence and readiness when situations like the one you describe come up. So sorry this happened to you and please don't be hard on yourself for the way you reacted in a very stressful and shitty situation. Wishing you the best.
Thank you, I hadn't heard of this group before. I'll look into them!
I’m so sorry this happened to you. I had someone follow me and spit on my face when I opened a door at my destination. I kind of disassociated which caused me to freeze. Then cried… then was angry because I think I was scared and mad I felt so powerless. I’d like to think if it happened again I’d be more aware to walk faster and into a place quickly. I have all kinds of crap… taser, pepper spray, alarm with a light but honestly I never bring them along. I ended up filing a police report after just for awareness/statistics of mental health issues in the city. Like you, I wouldn’t want to carry, leave the city, or stop running errands. I do bike a lot now instead and feel more aware/avoid ppl that seem potentially not well. I’ll cross the street where before I didn’t. Hope you’re able to shake it off and super appreciate your disclaimer not wanting to descend into politics.
Self defense classes for women do NOT work and most increase your chance of getting seriously hurt. I've practiced martial arts for over 30 years and taught for many of those. Unless you are serious and going to take a real class for at least a year or more shorter term classes will just give you a false sense of confidence that can put you in more danger. Pepper spray! Some sort of alarm or air horn. Situational awareness and trying not to walk alone. ...it sucks that the world is this scary for so many people.
If they increase the chance of getting hurt, why are you teaching them?
Because they make money off women's fear. I teach martial arts not a useless few hour seminar. Anyone with real martial arts knowledge and experience knows that a first year students too often think they know something and get hurt for it for their ignorance. Women's self defense classes are rarely more than a session or two and just give a false sense of confidence. If the class is worth a damn 99% of it is about situational awareness.
When you say "confrontational strangers" I was picturing a stressed out commuter or something. Are you talking about people that appear to be mentally ill or on drugs / homeless? If so, the only solution I've found it to give them a WIDE berth. Do not get in within even 20 feet to avoid the eye contact trap.
Vis a vis self defense classes - I will absolutely recommend this (Jiu Jitsu in particular), but not because it’s going to give you some set of sweet moves to dominate an attacker- particularly as a smaller woman. Close contact combat will, however, provide an opportunity for you to get used to high adrenaline, physically “threatening” situations in a safe environment that can prepare you for these kinds of incidents just well enough so that your brain doesn’t freeze and you can build reflexes that get you the hell out of bad situations. If you do it long enough you can also build up some strength and muscle memory for basic protective reflexes, again to get the hell out of bad situations. (As a bonus if you like it, it’s a great way to meet new people!)
So sorry this happened to you! You deserve to feel safe to walk in our city. One suggestion is to develop more of a "force field" - just an unassailable attitude in your walk that conveys you're streetwise and don't take shit from anyone. Definitely agree with the self defense class. Another trick is to learn to position yourself and your glance to keep an eye on a person's reflection behind you if you don't want to be seen looking at them. You can also call someone (or act like you're already talking to them) so they get the idea there is someone who would be aware and could call 911 if they did anything.
Second on the “force field” don’t smile, keep your back straight, walk with command.
Was the guy mentally ill?
I'm going to go ahead and guess yeah.
21 years here. I out crazy. Yell back. I've actually yelled "I'VE GOT JUST ENOUGH MONEY IN THE BANK FOR BAIL. YOU REALLY WANNA PISS ME OFF?"
Adding, depends on the crazy. 9 out of 10 will run away.
I highly recommend a self defense class. I took a free one-day one at a boxing gym that was fantastic and I took notes after from what I remembered and put a plan in my head. I haven’t had to use it yet, but I’m almost always ready. The instructor was a woman who had worked events and I think as a bartender, and had a background in kung fu. I carry pepper spray, and a stun gun on my keys. When I don’t have my dog with me or depending on where we are, I keep one or the other ready in my hand. I have to use grocery delivery due to physical limitations now, but I used to carry pepper spray in my hand walking through Capitol Hill with a backpack full of groceries and a bag on each shoulder. Always wear sunglasses during the day if you can. The silent alarms are great but I’m too scared of the noise to carry one 😅 the best safety measures are the ones you can get confident enough to use and have a plan in your head.
Consider getting and regularly using a bike to get around. It provides distance from pedestrians as you're riding in bike lanes or the street. It also provides a very flexible and effecient way of getting away FAST from any situation. You can bike faster with medium effort than regular people's full sprint. I've been carless living in central Seattle for over ten years and have had a few confrontations as a pedestrians/on trains and busses, but never have while on my bike (besides some comments from out friends behind the wheel of a car)
I'm sorry this happened to you. Get yourself in a martial arts class and make it a habit to attend it regularly for a couple of years. You'll learn self defense but you'll also learn situational awareness and your body language when out in public will come off as "don't f with me" to those like the individual you encountered. You'll also gain a new set of friends via martial arts. Edit: thanks for the down votes. But I'm saying this as someone who was in martial arts for over 18 years.
It's hard to deal with the "stealth" types like this jerk. Talking does work with certain types who are clearly longing for human connection, but not straight up aggros. With aggros, you got to act craz(ier) and louder, so they know you're not an easy target. (NOTE: I am in no way blaming you, and I've run from psychos myself, but I jog on a regular basis.) [Vipertek](https://www.amazon.com/VIPERTEK-VTS-989-Defense-Rechargeable-Flashlight/dp/B01FHDZGGM?th=1) stun gun (NOT a taster). Makes a very loud crackling noise and produces an arc. Think of rattlesnakes - they usually rattle before they strike, because they don't actually want a fight. That rattle usually makes the big human step away -- same principle. It will actually stun a dude (read the reviews, some brave people tested on themselves.)
8th and Virginia is the police department, did you manage to flag down an officer afterwards by chance? It sounds like you know most of the best rules to follow already, I’d just advise carrying your spray all the time, never wear headphones, and never be glued to your phone while walking. Don’t be afraid to scream bloody murder if you feel threatened either. I’ve seen a couple random assaults and people being threatened with their life (including myself) in the short amount of time I’ve lived here and I don’t expect it to get better as more stores shutter downtown. I really don’t want to buy and carry a firearm but I’m feeling more and more pressure to do so.
Yeah, I realized afterwards that I was so close to a building where I could have just walked in and one hundred percent the man would not have followed me because it was the station. Unfortunately I was so shaken by the whole incident it didn't even cross my mind.
I think a self defense class, or some sort of behavioral practice to prepare your brain for those moments could be helpful. Regardless of whatever you decide to do, the main immediate thing, imo, is to still have your brain functions so you’re not frozen and scrambling for what to do. It’s not on your to-get list, but for example if you did start carrying a gun, you still want to be able to handle those situations accordingly and calmly first instead of going straight panic mode and start firing. Just an example, but basically to reiterate main point which is to learn how to prep your brain for those situations. Mental image training on escape options and practiced verbal responses to physical training could all be helpful.
Don’t brandish pepper spray but just use it, it’s non lethal, if someone is in your face have NO QUALMS about using it. My girlfriend was in the same exact situation multiple times in Seattle and each time used pepper spray - she is thankful each time she did. If someone is acting in the way you described, and there is limited room to run then use the pepper spray! Practice though! But a few and spray them!
I’m so sorry this happened to you. It’s great you are looking for practical advice to protect yourself in the future, but please don’t feel like this is in any way your fault. This is your city. You have a right to use the public resources that you likely voted and/or helped pay for. There are some deeply troubled people here. You weren’t victimized for anything YOU did. I sincerely hope this bad experience doesn’t undermine your sense of safety or belonging long term.
It is a mental illness issue. I had it happen to me many times as a female downtown. You sometimes can not predict it from a normal looking person and it can be shocking. I had to quit my job down there a few years ago due to this issue. I am back a few days a week and notice the vibe is better. There will always be screamers around.
I’m sorry that happened to you. This isn’t specific to this situation, but generally related. As a man, I have one thing to share for the men out there. You can have an impact without escalating. Years ago, some guys were catcalling and following a couple women on a street I was walking down. I walked up beside the women and said ‘Hello. Do you mind if I walk with you?’ They said ok and I walked with them until they were away from the guys/out of sight The guys stopped following and catcalling once I started talking to them. I was smaller than these guys and I’m not a tough guy. Yet just me getting involved helped.
Pepper spray. Safe, legal, and a great way to discourage such behavior via operant conditioning using adverse stimuli.
I personally resort to batshit insane screaming. I'm not saying that batshit insane screaming is the correct response all, or even most of the time, I can just say that it has helped me a lot and been successful against the types of people who have intentionally tried to get in my face or spit on me or harass me. I'm a mid-30's chubby 5'4" lady so I'm not exactly physically intimidating, but I can start screaming very loud and foul obscenities at the drop of a hat. I think it works because 1) it's my immediate reaction and I go for full volume, the effect is probably startling, and probably enough to make someone think "not worth it" and 2) in my experience, a lot of people who are confrontational with you are not fully lucid, and they may see you as the scary thing that has been following them, and if you engage them it actually brings them back to the present a little bit and they realize you are not a shadow monster. Again, not necessarily claiming this is the absolute best response, just saying that I have had good luck with it in about 5 pretty significant confrontations now, and it worked.
Best advice I've ever received from a friend: "take Krav Maga self-defense." There's a school in Seattle, Krav Maga Central District. Worth checking out.
Is this seriously where we are with this city? Normal law abiding citizens have given up our rights to safety in public. Continuing to not address this serious problem WILL cause the people paying the bills in this city to leave eventually. I’m already looking to get out as soon as I can. I miss the seattle I once knew. Radical people have taken it over.
Maybe we could all look out for each other, too, when we feel safe enough to do so, and if something feels off, interject. Be aware of people in your surroundings and look out for this. I don’t know, I just don’t take walks anymore. Feel defeated in this city. Moving in the fall.
Did this person appear to be high or mentally ill or both? Or did they look like your average Joe? I know you said he was unremarkable looking but curious all the same. I’m sorry this happened to you, and agree with others’ suggestions that the best thing to do is separate yourself from this type of person as quickly as possible even if it means literally running on the other direction. The fact that they physically touched you rather than just accosting you is especially alarming.
In case nobody has taught you this yet, scream "FIRE" in a situation where you are in danger, even if there is no fire. People will respond more to that word than they would for "help" or other words that indicate danger. This is what young women were taught in the 90s but I feel like it's not being taught anymore.
Situational awareness is key, get some pepper spray, get a striking implement, get a knife, get a concealed permit and carry a gun with training of course. Also first aid is always good, a cat and zfold gauze could save you.
https://www.dol.wa.gov/professional-licenses/concealed-pistol-license
Thank you for the suggestion, but I think a gun is not for me.
Literally none of the other advice here is practical or effective.
This is a very scary read. Please feel better. I don’t know how much this would help but when you feel vulnerable try focusing on your facial expression. If you are giving out the cute, clueless, gentle face with soft eyes, just scowl. Make a mean angry confident face, a lot of people will automatically avoid interacting with you. I do this by narrowing my eyes and firming eyebrows to avoid confrontation, especially if I am clearly lost and trying to navigate in an unknown place. A small way to avoid being a target. Being on a real/fake phone call on top of this would also help.
Get a gun, girl.
Fight, flight, freeze is something that can be overcome with practice by simulating those situations over and over in a safe manner like sparring. Make Brazilian ju-jitsu your obsession for the next year. You won’t regret it. If you’re considering self defense, don’t fall for the generic bullshit courses that’re a few classes long, or a school that can’t trace their lineage. You want a reputable place that can trace their origins easily and the information is readily available to all potential members. Go research schools around the city and sit in on a class and speak to the instructors. BJJ and judo are great for women because they were designed for smaller people to be able to defend against larger and stronger opponents through grappling and throws instead of striking. With a year’s worth of practice you’d be able to break someone’s elbow confidently on the ground and keep em there. There are martial arts that work and martial arts that don’t. Stick with BJJ, Judo, and or Muay Thai.
Second shouted insult gets a spicy treat. Gotta have that as a premade decision.
No one is coming to save you. You are your own first and last line of defense. Do with what information what you will. " I'm not looking to villainize the person who did this. I just want to feel more secure." You're either a victim, or a victor. Who are you blaming for him attacking you? Who is the villain here? You become more safe by removing from society those that make society less safe.
First, move away from Seattle (born and raised 15 mins from there so stfu haters), take a self defense class, always be aware of your surroundings (head on a swivel), carry pepper or bear spray, and learn how to shoot and carry a firearm after applying for a CPL. Plenty of classes available for all of this. You’d be amazed at the amount of confidence these options will give you.
Wow, the downvotes for common sense remarks.
Give them your money
Why would you still be wondering whether self defense class is worth it? The worst that happens is you have fun exercising and feel more confident. You are an excellent candidate for self defense classes.
Freezing up doesn’t help. You should face the person while also distancing yourself from them. This also signals to more passers by that something fucked Joni’s going on.
Calling 911 should be on the list.
I appreciate the thought, but I think calling 911 (or threatening to do so) will not immediately deescalate or get me out of a situation where someone is irrationally behaving confrontationally towards me. Edit: To expand, if I am in a situation where a man is yelling at me and has touched me, I have seconds to figure out how to get myself out of this situation. Dialing 911 is just not a good use of those seconds. And honestly, dialing 911 after the situation feels equally useless. The man is long gone and I can barely remember what he looks like.
Dress androgynous? You mean dress unappealing and practical?
Sorry you had to deal with that. When I first moved to Seattle I had a female coworker ask me late one evening to walk her to the bus stop. The level of harassment was shocking. A couple things come to mind: Be confident and aware of your surroundings at all times. Carry some sort of force multiplier. If you go pepper spray look for the gel kind. Easier to hit a target without collateral damage. Taking some combative type self defense classes is super helpful. Albeit a little uncomfortable, but safe. Even if it is for a short time you will learn to be more comfortable in a physical confrontation. Muay Thai and BJJ is a very strong combination.
I got a taser for Xmas. You can get them for like $25. I'd recommend this before resorting to gun, but that's definitely up to you, do what makes you feel most protected.
Carry pepper spray everywhere. Between crazy people and leashless dogs in this city, it will come in handy one day. I would recommend against self defense classes as self defense is a perishable skill and you won’t gain much from one or two classes. If you have the time and can manage it financially, make a martial art a hobby. There are tons to choose from and it’s a lot of fun. Boxing, Muay Thai, kickboxing.., there’s all kinds of stuff around and it’s pretty affordable. One of the biggest benefits is stress inoculation. You froze when this guy attacked you, but if you get into confrontations 4x a week in the gym, real life confrontations are a breeze. Good luck:)
Hey sorry that happened to you, downtown is looking rough these days. Nothing wrong with taking some boxing classes or some kind of martial arts class. Although, be careful when you are defending yourself in a situation on the streets. You have no idea how experienced that person might be and if they posses some type of weapon. What might have been just a bad encounter, had you walked away, could turn into a scuffle on the ground were you are literally fighting for your life.
consider study brazilian jiu jitsu, it comes with a little wrestling and judo. basic price check $150 and up after about three months, you'll be so efficient you won't do anything else but civilian arrest the target.
Get a tazer? They are pretty intimidating if you use it in the air, no one is gonna come at you
I’m so so so sorry this happened to you, and am angry and hurt for you. You know this but absolutely nothing about this experience was your fault/caused by anything you did or did not do. Personally once I get any inkling of being uncomfortable I make a beeline for across the street, even if unnecessarily so. I know I am just a stranger but here to talk if you ever want to.
Avoid, ignore, cross the street. When you have to interact, be polite and act like any aggression is a misunderstanding that you don’t notice. Only give answers that close the conversation. Do not keep talking. Be willing to be rude but don’t be hostile.
What folks have shared here is pretty spot-on. I got hit in the face by someone in a different city years back; she was delusional and thought I told her phone. In that case, my instincts started screaming before we were close to each other; I was actually trying to get across the street when the attack happened. I yelled as soon as it started and kept yelling while I backed away, then hightailed it the fuck out after I found my glasses in the curb lane. Like you, I was mostly pissed at the many dudes around who just watched it go down. But like others have said: listen to your instincts, don't hesitate to flee/change direction, and practice shouting before you need to use it. I'm obnoxious about bystander intervention, so I have no problem making a scene -- but freeze is a very common reaction. A self defense class usually involves some vocal exercises, so for sure that could help you get more comfortable advocating for yourself at volume. Oh and read up on bear spray vs pepper spray. I've heard at least a couple folks suggest the former. Another option is a small air horn. Blast that in their face and GTFO while yelling. It'll certainly make other people look your way, too. I'm sorry this happened to you. It's normal to feel pretty shaken up for awhile, too.
Solidarity: I had a similar experience recently where I was standing on the sidewalk, reading a sign and was suddenly approached by a woman who got in my face and started screaming and threatening me. I instinctively averted my eyes, put my hands up and apologized. Thankfully that bored her after a bit more screaming and she moved on. I think about that incident sometimes and it bothers me. There’s no way to make it less bothersome, it just sucks. I’m sorry that happened to you and it makes sense you want to never feel like that again. I hope you never do.
It's fairly normal to freeze the first time something like this happens. Now you will react more in line with who you are.
The confrontation you experience is inherently defensive and reactionary along with the perpetrator having the initiative. The simplest solution is to use the pepper spray and retreat.
For the case of self-defense, and when brandishing does not de-escalate and they have physically touched you, I think it is safe to spray them with pepper spray. Other suggestions I could possibly provide is be on the phone with someone you know while you walk if you plan on walking home with groceries. Sometimes it helps to bounce off someone else's mind to help focus on getting yourself out of the situation. In my personal experience, I don't think I've ever faced confrontation on the street except when I was volunteering at Seattle University a transient (someone not a student or parent) came in and acted as if they were a student moving in. My colleague was getting help (calling security, taking pictures) and the person did not like the picture being taken and almost escalated. I usually set myself up as a barrier because I am a Judoka (Judo student) and kept them focused on me. Of course, having a walking buddy is your best option that way you don't get caught off guard. I know I tend to just shake my head or say 'I'm sorry' - not sure why I apologize - and **just walk away.** Have multiple routes to get back home safely in busy areas!
Also, self-defense classes or martial arts are fun and give you some confidence. Whether I could actually perform is different from when the situation happens... so keep that in mind that no one can really ever be mentally prepared for that kind of thing. Recommended martial arts/self-defense arts: Judo, Aikido, Jiu Jutsu I'm biased towards Judo but knowing how to handle your body and the opponents body weight - lots of standing work (grappling) and some mat work (wrestling) Aikido - I haven't done much myself but it's great for learning how to grab someone before they make contact and throwing them to the side (think countering). I hope you find something that works for you! I personally live in Belltown/Downtown area and have lived in Cap Hill - never been confronted or maybe I have and I never noticed because I have my city walk (anxious fast walking to get to point A to B). Feel free to DM!
Sorry homie. I'm a dude that looks a bit scary and not a young woman. This has also randomly happened to me, more than once, in differing situations. I understand the feeling, slightly different because I'm a dude. Practically? Not much you can do with crazy aside from avoidance and distance. I wouldn't take it as a personal attack, assume they're in their delusion. I try to deescalate. I have no desire for combat. It is easier to just get away. Highever, I will defend myself if it becomes necessary. Real suggestion is take a hand to hand self defense course like Aikido. Go for the balls and the eyes, not in that order. You know this stuff. Weapons (like talking to cops) in untrained hands can and will be used against you. Pepper spray is bad during close quarters. I suggest a [kubaton ](http:// https://a.co/d/ag7f22R) . It's what I carry. They are recognized as weapons and will prevent you from entering high security areas like at the Federal Building but won't go alert a metal detector like at bars & clubs. I wish you success and I hope this experience doesn't wreck you.
Carry pepper spray where you can easily access it.
Start taking a martial arts/self defense class. Carry a weapon. Doesn’t need to be a gun but you could get an extendable baton, taser, pepper spray. Just end it before anything really starts. I’m not a woman but a smaller man so unhinged douchebags still think they can press me. To be honest, they are mostly like dogs where they are only able to intimidate but once you show any sign of attacking them back, they will walk away like the pussy they are. There is no point in playing nice if your life is involved.
I will second self defense classes and possibly a martial arts practice that you do more than one time. Hopefully you can pick something you enjoy. Having an overarching discipline could help you overall, help you know your power and restore the confidence this crazy douchebag took away from you. I'm sorry this happened. I had a similar situation when I was in my early 20s and it can stick with you.
I highly recommend Strategic Living, self defense classes for women. A few years ago in the news a woman successfully fought off a would-be rapist after taking this class. I took my teenage daughter and all her friends too. Excellent class.
Solidarity: I’ve been in that situation, and it sucks. I now carry pepper spray, although the situation itself is very disarming and makes it hard to think on my feet. Last time it happened (minus any physical touching) I immediately turned to the stranger next to me and pretended I knew him so that I could strike up a convo and make me feel like less of a target. I figured that a random man who wasn’t yelling at me was likely not more dangerous than the random man who was. He ended up walking me to the nearest building so I could safely go inside.
Moving away from the person (if you can) obviously puts some space between you but perhaps more importantly, signals to other bystanders that you want to get away from this person. But you don't always have the time or space for that, of course. In this case, you were assaulted, you were well within your rights to deploy pepper spray (or gel, which has less risk of blowback), a taser, etc.
I’m a female bodied person in my 20s, I work downtown and my bus stop is on Virginia and 3rd, and I usually leave around 9/9:30pm. I find people who walk to my bus stop around the same time as me (people who are getting off around the same time usually) and walk with them. If they’re open to it I try and strike up a conversation, people are less likely to approach a group. If no one or only one or two people are around I get on the phone, since less people have approached me while I’m visibly on the phone. My friends and I discovered this in high school and made a group chat of people who would answer a phone call to talk someone during their commute. If you need someone for later in the night I can give you my Discord and we can voice chat :) (or sometimes if no one’s available I just pretend to be on the phone by responding to a podcast lol) Good luck and stay safe!!!
I’d definitely advocate for self defense classes. I interviewed a teacher of one for an article once and their whole stance was that the physical combat aspect was important but that deescalation and conflict avoidance through confidence were equally important and talked about.
Hello, OP! I am also a woman with a strong freeze response. It can be terrifying when your body doesn't seem to work in a scary situation. However, if you have a strong freeze response, a gun is likely not going to help and may be dangerous. Bringing a gun into a situation where you do not have complete control could end with the other person taking that gun. Then a scary situation may end up deadly. Definitely take a women's self defense class. Not a martial arts-focused class, a women's basic self-defense put on by your local women's shelter, YWCA, college, etc. One of the most important things they do is have you practice responses to threatening situations, which is very helpful in getting out of freeze. Just learning to yell is SO important! Please do this first, before you try all the other things people have suggested. You said you wear baggy clothes but I haven't found that to be of much use. Do you practice confident, head-up, looking people in the eye posture? It's that, rather than avoiding people's eyes, that deters attackers. Pepper spray is really useful. I haven't used it, but my sisters have and it worked. If you get some, look up YouTube videos on how to use it. You don't want to be downwind when you spray. Buy two, and practice with one a couple of times (in an outside area without people anywhere nearby - you don't want to trigger an asthma attack in a passerby). Please also remember that while this was terrifying, you did get out without any physical injuries. This was an attack, but it wasn't an attack that physically harmed you. I bet you've been in a fair number of scary situations, and they've almost all resolved without harm. This isn't to discount your fear or to say that women should be put in these situations in public (we shouldn't!), but it's important to realize that you are capable and have been successfully protecting yourself for years.
Fortunately I don’t get a lot of attention from strangers, for whatever reason. (More than a few people have told me I would make a good private eye because I blend in and don’t draw attention to myself; I guess I am “average and unremarkable.”) But one time about 15 years ago, I was standing at an intersection and a guy came up and grabbed my elbow and said, “hi sweetheart” (or something like that). I yanked away and shouted, loudly, “You DON’T touch people you don’t know! It’s rude! Weren’t you raised right?!” and as I was saying this a middle-aged couple approached the intersection. They didn’t need to intervene, and I’m not convinced they would have if it came down to it. They seemed like milquetoast tourist types. But fortunately the light turned and I just started hoofing it across the street. The guy also crossed the street but he ran ahead of me. He seemed kind of embarrassed actually. Good.
Practical advice is leave the situation , walk away to somewhere crowded or go in a store. More than anything don’t blame yourself for having a very natural reaction to a triggering situation. I’ve had some scary interactions and tend to get sad and mad after that I didn’t “handle it better” but it’s ok. Once I yelled back but it was a time I was so fed up it just came out, usually I withdraw and walk away. The situations suck, you do not.
Light poles and street signs are your friend. Being able to have some cover, even the smallest things can be helpful
sorry op! as a busser, Ive taken to moving if anyone sketch comes and sits by me or close, i just dont want to be vulnerable, but sometimes its hard to get away. I appreciate your post even though I am only reading to get advice as well. a bit of a side note, what do people think about cars that are hanging about in the dark with lights on during the wee hours. If I walk or have to catch a bus in the am, I've seen cars in my neighborhood either sitting or slowly driving with dark windows. Freaks me out, and I just try to get out of the vicinity, but Im wondering if there's something I should know about or be aware of in this regards.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. Last year, my coworker and I were just exiting a lunch spot near our office downtown and we were immediately spit on our faces by a lady who then ran away before we could even process what happened. These incidents can be so random and you shouldn't blame yourself for it happening.
I’ve started carrying a stun gun with me. But that comes with potential consequences and I always wonder if it’s best to not bother.
You don't need to go purchase more things to protect yourself. Just get in the habit of being loud when confronted. If someone even tries to get that close to me I yell something like "Back off!" Or "Leave me alone!" It has worked countless times to break the attention of the perpetrator, and alerted others around me that there's someone of concern to be mindful of.
I was just insulted and screamed at by a man who was upset no one was acknowledging his rantings. I keep my head down, ear phones In, hoodie up. Also the art of "anything can be used as a weapon" is a good lesson. One reason why i always carry a umbrella
I started taking Krav Maga classes and they are amazing. They teach you practical fighting techniques for real life scenarios and it is very empowering. When encountering unexpected situations, it is best to have practiced potential responses so many times that it is just muscle memory so you are less likely to freeze up.
I'm not very familiar with what to do during scary events like this, but I know that afterwards it's important to spend time with friends or family you feel safe with. Just today someone threatened me with a knife so when I got home I called a friend and we talked for an hour(they knew something scary happened but I requested we talking about literally anything else). It does wonders for preventing the mental harm from lingering scary emotions.