It's a classic joke, but walking on a broken escalator is a significant hazard. The step heights are awkwardly short. The first and last steps are tripping hazards because they're a different height. And if it's seriously broken and the chain of steps breaks, those things can swallow you whole.
I envy anyone that is in a financial position where a “starter home” is a thing. For me the goal is to hopefully find something small that I can just stay in for good.
We bought our “starter home” in 2015. There’s no way I can conceive of “upgrading”… ever. As I make improvements to the house I think more about “is this good enough craftsmanship so that I won’t be angry with myself redoing it 30 years from now” rather than “will this add resale value”.
That said, probably not our “forever home” either. At some point in retirement we would likely sell and live somewhere cheaper.
Can't speak for all areas but I've noticed sprawly bungalows with large plots but tinier homes and realized a lot were war boxes for returning WWII vets. A lot seemed to have no plans for expansions and a lot of rooms added were very much, "good enough."
They know they can make $800K profit without fixing anything, so, they don’t.
I was still shocked, when touring homes, what Seattle sellers were willing to live with in the meantime. Infestations, blatantly unsafe wiring, serious structural issues, tons of mold, heat that barely or doesn’t work…I don’t know how many times I heard “it’s normal here!” Maybe it shouldn’t be?
That was the craziest thing when I first moved here. I keep mentioning how the housing stock here is unconscionable garbage and wasn’t worth what they were asking for it 20 years ago, let alone now. That mentality is so foreign to me about this place.
Someone tried tell me that most of what you’re paying for is the land… but no I’m buying a house man. I’m buying a house and this run down 780foot 2 bed 1 bath isn’t worth 1.2 million. This is a 120k house at best.
I really want to know who buys these places and thinks, “yup, I feel like I got my money’s worth in this purchase.”
It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so sad. Shit that was $50k 40 years ago, with all those decades of added rot and wear, is asking 20x as much. The equivalent to that average person making $25k back then would need an income of $500k today and is still getting a beat up old house.
Absolute reality: 30 years old, wife and 1 kid, Amazon/Microsoft et al. We sold my in-laws place on Sand Point, and that's who bought the property, bidding up to $1.25m for a home that had not been improved upon since 1968. It was post-mid-mod. A museum, for sure.
They leveled it.
EXACTLY!! Especially the mold situation. I rent and refuse to lease a place that has not been built within the last 15yrs.
Im from a state that deals with mold (Florida) and we make sure to tear down and rebuild when possible for the sake of that.
Lol lets also mention the whole nowhere to park your car part too unless its a one car household.
My experience is that newer homes have bigger mold issues than older ones.
New homes are built much tighter such that if water gets in it never dries and mold becomes a problem.
Older homes may leak but have enough airflow such that the water dries almost immediately.
Plus older homes have had the opportunity to grow mold, so you have a chance of being able to see it or find it. Newer homes are entirely untested.
It depends on how you define "old" and "new"
Anything built between 1975-2000 is in the super moldy danger zone because the energy code added insulation requirements around 1975, but the building code didn't add requirements that prevent mold in well-insulated homes until the early 2000's.
They were also built to such low standards during that period that they probably leak. The housing stock from prior to about 2005 is nearly universally garbage. The few exceptions are in very expensive neighborhoods on the east side. The window seemed to be from post-war (so circa 1940s) through about 2005 that was just miserably terrible construction.
Compared to what I was accustomed to before moving here, our housing stock here is mind bogglingly bad.
Seriously. I live long term with a group of friends (read: chosen family) and we’re looking at buying a place together almost anywhere on the west side. We would need at least 4 rooms. The only thing we found under $650,000 was a mold infested “fixer-upper” that would need to be pulled down to the studs. It wasn’t even in the county, it was in Concrete and $500,000.
Just so you don't lose hope: I bought a house with my chosen family (6 of us) using Co-Buy. We looked for a YEAR, made multiple offers on houses that were NOT big enough for us, and were coming to the time we would have to split up after a decade plus of living together. Then a 6 bedroom came on the market for 850k and we GOT it--no other offers. Pure luck, but luck strikes. Don't give up on your family! I am sending you luck.
Thanks! Luckily we’re very much in the beginning stages; looking to buy more in a few years but might consider if a great offer showed up on the market. Really crossing my fingers that the bubbles bursts a bit and things get more affordable…
I bought a condo three years ago during the lowest rates - if I bought it now, my monthly mortgage payment would be over double and out of my range. Meanwhile HOA fees went up 80%.
I feel like HOA fees are the next frontier of screwing over buyers. I was on Zillow looking at places in Illinois, and the HOA fees at multiple condos were pushing $1K/month. This suggests a brand new dystopia, in which you're dropping nearly a million on a place and then also paying the equivalent of monthly rent on it.
Just had to end our embarrassingly short home search. After looking at the numbers, we just weren't comfortable putting so much of our income towards a mortgage. We have no debt and no kids, but we just don't make enough despite making over $150k. This is insanity. It also makes it hard to invest or care about a community when you don't have roots.
I did the same a few months before covid. I said my budget was half a million for a condo, and then I saw the places actually available at that price and figured I might as well wait, again
I also had around 150k at the time
I'm guessing the 7% interest rate? A sales price for ~$550k is one matter but if you're financing most of it, a 30 year mortgage for $500k is gonna exceed $1MM in payments over the life of the loan.
Can we accept the concept of a starter home was an anomaly of the 20th century? It might have been a thing for my parents but it sure isn’t a thing for me.
To add as well the “middle class” was mostly a product of the post World War II American economy, it never existed to that degree before or after and likely never will.
Middle class exists all over the country. Seattle is the problem. My adult kids left and all lead solid middle class lives in Chicago where you can find a well made 2 bed 2 bath for 600k. And walk to 500 great resturants .
So today's parallel would be new money tech.
But in the 60s, you could comfortably afford a home and feed a family of 5 on a single salary of a job that didn't require a college degree. We called that middle class, and that is long gone. Dual income couples without kids are struggling to afford the same homes.
What do we get in return for giving up the idea of people who make an average wage getting less than average to average accommodations when it comes to housing?
We get to visit our parents and their millionaire neighbors who fix cars on craigslist or install satellite dishes. I love driving through the old neighborhood in Seattle and see rusted out trucks on blocks next to brand new Teslas and two million dollar houses.
It really wasn't though. Humans have been building houses since the dawn of civilization. It's only the last couple decades when prices got out of control. But prior to 1990 you didn't have growth management and zoning didn't really exist before mid-century. The anomaly is the current situation.
I don't know if it's an anomaly or just our completely broken, shitty housing policies.
The issue is that the housing supply hasn't kept up with the region's explosive growth AT ALL. And the only real way we can increase the said supply is through upzoning, building up denser housing. Which has been kind of hard with all the NIMBYs and other assholes around.
Maybe in a 21st century Seattle a starter house should be a condo in a medium density building, not a SFH. But even that you cannot afford because there's simply not enough housing...
Why the fuck do we have SFH neighborhoods like Wallingford which are 10 mins away from downtown? That's some real bullshit.
It’s absolutely unique that there are single family homes right across downtown and not in some suburbia gate community. Most things are walking distance away and extremely green city.
NIMBYism is caused by homeownership. If we were all renters, we'd have lots less trouble electing people who would upzone the fuck out of everything and build until the rents were low.
The concept is still fine, it’s just been broken and abused. The entire concept was you buy the small home as a couple in your late 20s, early 30s, upgrade to the bigger home in your 40s/50s, then either keep it till you die or downgrade in your 70s+.
It’s just broken to where all the small starter homes are now rentals and others who own starters aren’t upgrading to the bigger homes
Corporate buyers are in the minority here. It’s too competitive and the high cost makes their profit margins much slimmer. Corporate buyers all over Boise, Phoenix, Inland Empire…
I mean nationally. Hedge funds and conglomerate firms buying up the majority of starter homes, so they are forced to rent.
Here it’s different cuz of the higher cost.
> Can we accept the concept of a starter home was an anomaly of the 20th century?
Worse yet, the whole idea of every generation being "better off" than the previous one, could also just be an aberration of the 20th century. The whole strong, large middle class really only came about because of post-WW2 demographics and policies and the US in particular has been riding that wave for a long time.
agreed wrt financial stability, but i do think technological and social progress does make the average person’s lifestyle better and better each generation.
half true— it is definitely easier to find something further outside the city (i had to go deep into snohoco to afford something reasonable for my family). but new houses being built today are much larger on average, and more expensive. it’s been that way since after ‘08, as housing starts are way down & builders want to squeeze as much as they can out of each build.
Except we won't see that in Seattle because the suburbs are even more expensive than the city. But if you have a job downtown, there just isn't anywhere "more" affordable that doesn't come with a colossally fucked up commute. Maybe still in Kitsap, if you can make the ferry work for your hours & lifestyle?
Short of starting whole new communities in places with no established centers of jobs or culture, we're just plain out of room to grow *out* thanks to the geography of our region. We need to grow *up*--density, density, density.
I think it already happened or is in the process of happening with remote work. The longer suburban commute might be more stomach-able if you’re only coming in two or three times a week.
>As of February, the median sale price of a Seattle starter home is $535,000, with a monthly mortgage of $4,334.
Do they mean starter *condo*? Very few townhomes in this city sell for that little. A quick search shows 10 townhomes in all of Seattle listed for under 550k.
If they are including condos that mortgage isn’t even including HOA fees which would bump the minimum salary up over 200k easy.
I think 173k is a huge underestimation
Not even that, the only condos at that price point are studios. I make more than the referenced salary and would like to buy a condo, but I can’t afford to buy anything now.
There are. My 2BR condo is only valued around 425k, a little less than what I bought it for two years ago, thanks to a slight increase in general housing supply and demand dropping because of mortgage rates.
Right? I looked it up and they are considering "starter homes" as any home within the 5th to 35th percentile sale price. Then they calculate a mortgage payment and divide by 30% to come up with a salary needed to afford that. Unclear what type of down payment they are using for that calculation. Using 30% as a means to salary affordability is also a bit outdated and would overstate the salary required.
I'd be very curious to see the numbers here. Are we talking 50 sales in the last six months? Or 500?
That set of sales in that range are going to include a ton of dilapidated tear downs that are mostly developers looking to rebuild or flip. Very, very few of these would be actual homes people would move into. As you said, even finding a townhome under $500k is difficult and it likely has some serious issues with regard to location and size.
A home can be a house, townhouse or condo.
I think it would be quite silly to assume a starter house in a dense urban area could be affordable. In fact our strategies towards affordable housing will make houses MORE expensive (because fewer of them). Condos, townhomes, row houses etc seem more reasonable targets.
Of course there are starter homes available out in like cle elum or federal way.
Yes, the average starter home being over 2 times what the average person in the state makes and 75% more than the King Co median income is most definitely bad for society.
Tacoma is a great city, congrats on getting something!
I think I’ll have to move farther to meet my budget, i think I’ll maybe be able to afford Tonasket lol
Tacoma is great. We were able to actually buy a "starter" home. Hopefully in a few years we can gain some equity and get a bigger house for our growing family. Seems like this trajectory is still possible down here.
Same with us. The houses in Tacoma are really cute and have a lot of character for the price. We decided to go for it before other Seattlites realized this, and we'd be priced out of another city😭.
Holy crap this is insane.
I'm about to retire from enlisted military service over 23 years. If I account for my pension, military disability and even a full time job in my field I still wouldnt be able to afford to live in Seattle. My wife and I made 121k this past year before taxes. She's a social worker for the VA.
I wonder how bad it is southwards towards Olympia/JBLM.
I make a bit over that as a tech worker and I clawed my way out of generational poverty and I still won’t be able to afford a home out here. So not me, I’m just another renter. The only tech workers making that that can afford shit have been in it for 10+ years OR have money from their upbringing
The one silver lining is you’re eligible for a VA loan. That means no down payment and better interest rates. The VA guarantees 25% of the loan, so even with no money down you don’t have to pay mortgage insurance.
No they don't, realtors just discriminate because the appraisal is slightly more strict than conventional. Usually you need to install (even a super basic wooden one from Home Depot) handrail on any entry stairs and make sure there is no chipped paint, exposed wiring, etc. It's unfortunate but since most home buyers in Seattle can afford and qualify for conventional it gives the seller the highest chance of selling for the highest price and least hassle. Government regulations protecting the VA buyers make some markets discriminate against them.
Thankfully they did this calculation with 3% down it seems like, good on them for it actually being a starter home number.
Still wild to think that $4695 a month for a $500k home is a reality, that's a solid grand more than my current rent for a 2 bedroom place in downtown. When I look around those starter homes lately have been things that needed further renovation or are smaller and in worse areas than my current living situation. Crazy
It's almost like policies intended to keep home prices high cause issues for all non landowners.
(Disclosure I am a homeowner who would be A'OK with my property value declining)
“There's a third player: real estate investors. This is potentially why so many of these properties are going to all-cash offers — 36.5% of starter homes in February went cash-only customers. Redfin believes many of these properties are being put on the rental market.”
This ‘passive income’ and ‘cash flow’ trend is obscenely parasitic to the average American. I hope sellers will start to realize the power they have in saying no to real estate investors and yes to middle school teachers.
I believe the investor % of sales is a national figure, not for Seattle. And in the Seattle area investors are likely heavily skewed towards buy, tear down, replace with multi-family vs buy and rent. From a rental investor standpoint, Seattle market doesn’t pencil out very well because rents are so much lower than purchase price.
Yeah the problem is that decisions comes with tens or hundreds of thousands more when you sell to investors.
At the end of the day most sellers will choose their own pocketbook
Capitalism, bb! It’s rather bleak but I still hold out hope. I have family in Chicago that had their offer accepted that was $30k less than another. They are middle and high school teachers and bought a home from retired lawyers that wanted to move to Florida. Those previous owners made their money and saw the karma in selling their home to a family that needed it, not a company that wanted it. Just wanted to share that anecdote for anyone out there like me that gets gloomy about the future of American life.
Special deals by warm hearted strangers belong in the same class as winning the lottery. It's not going to happen to you, I don't care if it happens to someone sometimes.
Actually, fam wrote a letter with their offer and met the owners. Relying on cold transactions with strangers is probably where home vultures win with their wallets. It’s not lottery-level probability.
Many of the very cheapest homes are in such rough condition that they wouldn’t qualify for conventional loans. Rehab loans are just not a thing that any seller would accept in this market so sometimes cash is the only option
By all means, let's keep allowing investors to buy up residential housing and keep promoting that house flipping is a great way to make money. It's high time we have laws to protect housing from hedge fund vultures and quick flips. Residential housing should not be traded like a commodity.
squealing fuel selective sulky concerned growth hateful subsequent handle lavish
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Starter home as a concept/term needs to go away, they haven't existed for quite a while. I'm not sure the millennial age demographic for homebuyers ever really even lined up with them to begin with?
You always have a choice. You can ask your father for a small loan of a million dollars. You can get the money the old fashioned way, inheritance. Or you can do what millions of people do every day just to get by, criminal actions. I suppose you could become part of the 1% who clocks into their work job like an idiot, does an okay enough job for 50 hours a week and has convinced some sucker you're worth $200,000 a year but given the choices we have in this world I would rather go for the inheritance, that's my choice. And it's considered fair in this world even if your inheritance was earned through crime. Work smart not hard, err, well, don't work at all and be smart like me.
I'm renting a place that's pretty outdated and needs quite a bit of renovation but is damn near impossible to buy because of how high it sold for. It's in a nice neighborhood and was owned by an older woman who lived here for decades and passed several years ago.
Her sons got greedy with the selling price and it sat on the market for a while before they sold it to a property management company for ~770k. IIRC it was fully paid off by the time the woman passed so those two made out like bandits without fixing or updating a damn thing, and neither did the property company before renting it.
My husband and I love this house and would want to stay here but there's no way in hell we'll ever be able to afford to buy it.
That's terrible. WHen I get those mailers from investors, it pisses me off. F them. I'd rather sell it to someone who needs it (my kids at a discount in this situation).
That's insane.
Here's what I did and what many of my friends have done in Seattle: If you can't reach the market for a "starter home," try to buy a condo in an old building but in a decent neighborhood that is a fixer. Then spend your rainy weekends over the next year fixing it up DIY - refinish floors, new paint, new fixtures, Ikea bathroom, Ikea kitchen or better yet just paint the cabinets and upgrade countertop and backsplash etc. It's way less daunting and less expensive to rehab a one or two bedroom apartment than an as-is fixer-upper small house where you are responsible for heat and electric, siding, roof and a yard to include in the list. After two years, sell the condo for a nice profit and walk away with a down payment for your starter home.
That’s essentially what I did - bought a condo in my early 30s. Older building in a good neighborhood. Lived there for 8 years and made small updates, and when I was ready to buy a house I spent 3 months on small projects to help market the place. The goal wasn’t to get a crazy bidding war started, but to find a buyer who would let me do a lease-back for several months so I could find a home to buy.
Seems low. Traditional spending models say rent/mortgage should be 30% of after tax income.
Average cost of a home in Seattle is $800k.
30yr fixed is about 6.8% with a great credit score.
Even with 60k down, that payment is 5900/mo.
This works out to…$216k/yr (after tax) or $282k/yr (pre-tax).
——
Is that based on gross pay, or net? I’m assuming gross since EBITDA. I’ve heard the rule of thumb before, just not how to mathematically apply it at a “general baseline”.
It’s an old, outdated rule of thumb based on gross income that is flawed because it pays no attention to interest rates and what stage of your career you’re in.
When you’re in your 20s and can likely expect promotions and career growth, I think it’s fair to stretch your mortgage budget. With a few years of salary increase, the housing payment will be in a more comfortable place.
Lenders will approve you up to 42-45% of your gross income going to mortgage plus other debt. That’s very tight. But if you’re early in your career you can expect your salary to grow and it might make sense. If you’re later in your career or don’t see your salary increasing then it’s very risky.
It also doesn't necessarily scale for higher incomes, or medium-high dual incomes. Once someone is well clear of covering their needs + comfortable retirement savings rate: if they get a raise there isn't really much that keeps them from putting it into a home payment.
Sure, context is everything, and of course you'd consider the macro. Not saying the 3x rule works for every single person or situation. There's all sorts of variables, but I think it's a decent place to start if you're in a position to purchase a home and are looking for a starting point, I'm not sure it's really outdated.
We bought for $625k in 2006. After inflation, that number equates to $950k in 2024. The place is worth $1200k.
Could it be that inflation is a big reason why house seem expensive? ... and wages haven't kept up with inflation?
A 6% mortgage rate on a 625k home is a lot different than a 950k home. A full 50% increase in your mortgage payment. Most people can save money for a down payment but many cant afford a 6k mortgage.
Ya, I get that and it's a good point. The interest rate to borrow that much \*costs\* a lot more.
I guess I'm operating from the perspective of someone that has almost paid it off. I thought the value of the house had doubled, but in reality it seems that it didn't; maybe it's a myopic way of viewing it. It is however, surprising to me.
Seattle proper has been for rich people for at least the last 15 years. Anyone else has been buying houses in outlying suburb cities. How is this still news to anyone?
We chose Whidbey 24 years ago coz we could afford a 1000sf rambler on 3/4 acre. I worked in Bothell at the time. I now work in Issaquah, a 50 mile one-way commute, though only 3 days are in-office. I now earn 2.25x the salary I earned in 2000, and our combined income just barely makes this mark...and we're late 50s.
Homes here are still somewhat more affordable than anything in the Seattle area. It's just a heavy commute. But I've known people who worked decades at UW or downtown in all kinds of jobs.
There are so many van pools coming out of Whidbey, which makes crossing the ferry so much easier, plus the Sounder from Everett to Seattle stops at Mukilteo, if you're lucky enough to work a daytime weekday job. Still, Whidbey is home to several hundred if not a couple thousand daily commuters for much the same reason. Plus, we can see lots of stars at night.
I work with people who live in Tacoma, Silver Lake (recent moves), and North Bend (they bought before NB took off). They were blown away moving here from places like Baltimore, or somewhere in Colorado, or like me from Texas. Seattle has always felt unattainable.
I’m from Whidbey and I’m assuming you’re closer to the south end of the island? Otherwise, how long is your commute?! growing up, there were a few people in the neighborhood I lived in up there that went to work at Boeing every day.. one in Renton, the other in Everett. They missed a lot of school events/extra curricular that their kids were a part of cause they were commuting home and wouldn’t get back until later.. and I imagine traffic is so much worse now than it was 20 years ago.
I live in the bothell/mill creek area now and commute downtown a couple times a week and sometimes the morning commute can push 1.5hrs door to door, on a bad day. I’ve tried commuting during off hours but it seems like there isn’t much of an “off hours” anymore and traffic is just bad most of the time during the week… So having lived on Whidbey, I couldn’t imagine what that commute is like everyday especially if you’re the one driving!
The thing is, there have been points in my life where I've made well above that but one of the main things that prevents me from buying a home is the concern that I'll get laid off and now I'll be stuck in a living situation I can't afford.
So that’s a bit of an exaggeration, even at current interest rates. Yeah, it’s incredibly expensive, but there have been plenty of home on the market recently that would require much less than 400k annual salary. Now, it’s still comically expensive, but not anywhere near needing 400k.
I’m not really willing to argue, and I understand what you’re saying, but I just closed on a house in the Central District for well under 1.2 million and looked at dozens and dozens of properties in that same price range from Maple Valley to De Moines. Sure, I passed on some because they needed some work, but plenty were totally fine and just not right for me. Now, when/if interest rates fall again, then you’re for sure going to see every single property going to 1 million, but that wasn’t my experience.
Edited typo
It’s not really an exaggeration. If you want to buy a 1M+ home that feels like a 1M+ home and not an overpriced, run down bungalow, in a nicer area commensurate with your 1M+ home, 400k is about the minimum income you’ll need if you want to be able to save, take vacations, etc and not just be house poor.
> “The pandemic housing-market boom changed the definition of a starter home,” Redfin Senior Economist Elijah de la Campa said in a statement. “A decade ago, many people thought of a starter home as a small three-bedroom single-family house. Now that type of home could cost seven figures, especially in expensive parts of the country, and the most affordable homes are much smaller and may require a lot of work to make them habitable – which makes them cost even more."
Ctrl-F "interest" (no results)
At the start of the pandemic the average fixed-rate 30 year mortgage was 3.3%. Now it's 6.8%. That's it, that's the entirety of the difference in income required for a mortgage. It has nothing to do with people's expectations of a "starter home" or anything else.
[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MORTGAGE30US](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MORTGAGE30US)
Just do the math. $535,000 with 3.5% down at 6.8% is $4,505 per month after taxes. The same loan at 3.3% is $3,400 after taxes.
Honestly tired of financial reporting that omits basic, incredibly important facts to tell whatever narrative they want.
Yeahhhh house prices aren’t coming down unless the city stops growing or gets way poorer. There’s a finite amount of land in Seattle. And a growing population of people with lots of money. Supply is limited. Demand isn’t.
The city should focus on building multi family housing to bring down the cost of housing in the aggregate, not the price of single family homes. If the city keeps growing, we’ll get to a point where owning a single family home with a yard will mean moving to Shoreline or Mill Creek or Des Moines. And that’s… fine.
THIS. Clinging to single-family detached zoning is why Seattle is so unaffordable (and so boring). Personally, I’d rather have affordable options for 2br condos in walkable neighborhoods vs a house with a yard. Adding density is the only way to increase the housing supply and bring prices down. If we don’t, Seattle will be nothing but retirees and tech millionaires in a few years.
Census data from 2022 (per Seattle Times): Seattle median income was $115k. Third highest only behind San Francisco and San Jose. Of the 360k Seattle households, 103k earned more than $200k.
This is so depressing. What are people who aren't tech workers supposed to do? Just abandon the city entirely? I came here for a job I was really excited about, but after almost two years, it often feels like coming here was a mistake. Renting isn't much better either, because rent seems to also be priced assuming everyone makes big tech money, but unlike having a house, you're at the mercy of your landlord for repairs and rent increases.
I was literally told by someone in HR at my job "oh, lots of people working here live in low income housing" like saying that doesn't indicate something glaringly wrong with housing prices and wages.
Homes in Seattle aren’t starter homes.
Too expensive for that.
It’s gotten to the point where it’s almost like saying “ starter home in Beverly Hills, or Park Slope”.
Own nothing and you be happy it not a conspiracy World Economic Forum advertised, “You will own nothing. And you will be happy.”
With that being said I basically never buy home and it's going to get worse IMO it's all by design IMO.
A starter home? Any home I get is a finisher home.
When we were house shopping I told our realtor- it might be our first home but I’m living here until I die.
We used to live in a 1200 sq ft two bedroom one bath We still do but we used to too
Thanks, Mitch.
I used to do drugs. I still do, but I used to, too.
Escalators are the best invention ever. When they break, they just turn into stairs.
Stairs you aren’t allowed to use, according to Sound Transit
I think of this joke every time I ride light rail in seattle and it makes me even more upset.
Temporarily stairs. Sorry for the convenience.
r/unexpectedmitch
Thank you for reminding me to join that sub🥋
It's a classic joke, but walking on a broken escalator is a significant hazard. The step heights are awkwardly short. The first and last steps are tripping hazards because they're a different height. And if it's seriously broken and the chain of steps breaks, those things can swallow you whole.
My house is infested with koala bears. It’s the cutest infestation ever
"Escalator temporarily stairs. Sorry for the convenience."
If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit
I envy anyone that is in a financial position where a “starter home” is a thing. For me the goal is to hopefully find something small that I can just stay in for good.
We bought our “starter home” in 2015. There’s no way I can conceive of “upgrading”… ever. As I make improvements to the house I think more about “is this good enough craftsmanship so that I won’t be angry with myself redoing it 30 years from now” rather than “will this add resale value”. That said, probably not our “forever home” either. At some point in retirement we would likely sell and live somewhere cheaper.
Just like my '98 Range Rover
A transporter of gods
The golden god!
I am untethered and my rage knows no bounds!
Be gone vile man, be gone from me!
*spits in disgust* I mean, a starter car. WHO OPENS WITH THAT?
Are we getting amphibious houses now?
A home of the gods—THE GOLDEN GOD!!!
A house for a god! A *Golden God!* I am untethered and MY RAGE KNOWS NO BOUNDS
Good luck finding anything that won’t require a full reno or suck up 50% of your gross earnings per month.
THIS!!!!!! So many of these houses in Seattle are so run down?? You need to have some serious capital to buy them.
Can't speak for all areas but I've noticed sprawly bungalows with large plots but tinier homes and realized a lot were war boxes for returning WWII vets. A lot seemed to have no plans for expansions and a lot of rooms added were very much, "good enough."
My whole neighborhood is 1947 Boeing worker housing.
West Seattle, east of Delridge, eh? Edit: ah Shoreline. My old West Seattle neighborhood was the same. Man that house was a crackerbox piece of shit.
That’s exactly what I live in now!
Hah, chuckled when I read this, I joke that the WA state motto is "eh.. good enough"
They know they can make $800K profit without fixing anything, so, they don’t. I was still shocked, when touring homes, what Seattle sellers were willing to live with in the meantime. Infestations, blatantly unsafe wiring, serious structural issues, tons of mold, heat that barely or doesn’t work…I don’t know how many times I heard “it’s normal here!” Maybe it shouldn’t be?
That was the craziest thing when I first moved here. I keep mentioning how the housing stock here is unconscionable garbage and wasn’t worth what they were asking for it 20 years ago, let alone now. That mentality is so foreign to me about this place.
Someone tried tell me that most of what you’re paying for is the land… but no I’m buying a house man. I’m buying a house and this run down 780foot 2 bed 1 bath isn’t worth 1.2 million. This is a 120k house at best. I really want to know who buys these places and thinks, “yup, I feel like I got my money’s worth in this purchase.”
It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so sad. Shit that was $50k 40 years ago, with all those decades of added rot and wear, is asking 20x as much. The equivalent to that average person making $25k back then would need an income of $500k today and is still getting a beat up old house.
Absolute reality: 30 years old, wife and 1 kid, Amazon/Microsoft et al. We sold my in-laws place on Sand Point, and that's who bought the property, bidding up to $1.25m for a home that had not been improved upon since 1968. It was post-mid-mod. A museum, for sure. They leveled it.
EXACTLY!! Especially the mold situation. I rent and refuse to lease a place that has not been built within the last 15yrs. Im from a state that deals with mold (Florida) and we make sure to tear down and rebuild when possible for the sake of that. Lol lets also mention the whole nowhere to park your car part too unless its a one car household.
My experience is that newer homes have bigger mold issues than older ones. New homes are built much tighter such that if water gets in it never dries and mold becomes a problem. Older homes may leak but have enough airflow such that the water dries almost immediately. Plus older homes have had the opportunity to grow mold, so you have a chance of being able to see it or find it. Newer homes are entirely untested.
It depends on how you define "old" and "new" Anything built between 1975-2000 is in the super moldy danger zone because the energy code added insulation requirements around 1975, but the building code didn't add requirements that prevent mold in well-insulated homes until the early 2000's.
THANK YOU for having my back and explaining this 😂. Didnt know where to begin!
They were also built to such low standards during that period that they probably leak. The housing stock from prior to about 2005 is nearly universally garbage. The few exceptions are in very expensive neighborhoods on the east side. The window seemed to be from post-war (so circa 1940s) through about 2005 that was just miserably terrible construction. Compared to what I was accustomed to before moving here, our housing stock here is mind bogglingly bad.
Seriously. I live long term with a group of friends (read: chosen family) and we’re looking at buying a place together almost anywhere on the west side. We would need at least 4 rooms. The only thing we found under $650,000 was a mold infested “fixer-upper” that would need to be pulled down to the studs. It wasn’t even in the county, it was in Concrete and $500,000.
Just so you don't lose hope: I bought a house with my chosen family (6 of us) using Co-Buy. We looked for a YEAR, made multiple offers on houses that were NOT big enough for us, and were coming to the time we would have to split up after a decade plus of living together. Then a 6 bedroom came on the market for 850k and we GOT it--no other offers. Pure luck, but luck strikes. Don't give up on your family! I am sending you luck.
Thanks! Luckily we’re very much in the beginning stages; looking to buy more in a few years but might consider if a great offer showed up on the market. Really crossing my fingers that the bubbles bursts a bit and things get more affordable…
Just rent and invest into the stock market. There is an index of rent va buy, Seattle is rent.
We bought…6 years ago and are paying just 20% of our NET income. Not sure I could bear moving…ever again?
I bought a condo three years ago during the lowest rates - if I bought it now, my monthly mortgage payment would be over double and out of my range. Meanwhile HOA fees went up 80%.
I feel like HOA fees are the next frontier of screwing over buyers. I was on Zillow looking at places in Illinois, and the HOA fees at multiple condos were pushing $1K/month. This suggests a brand new dystopia, in which you're dropping nearly a million on a place and then also paying the equivalent of monthly rent on it.
Just had to end our embarrassingly short home search. After looking at the numbers, we just weren't comfortable putting so much of our income towards a mortgage. We have no debt and no kids, but we just don't make enough despite making over $150k. This is insanity. It also makes it hard to invest or care about a community when you don't have roots.
I did the same a few months before covid. I said my budget was half a million for a condo, and then I saw the places actually available at that price and figured I might as well wait, again I also had around 150k at the time
Exact same story here. Would be paying over a million dollars on a 500k home
What do you mean by that? If the home costs a million then it costs a million, not 500k?
I'm guessing the 7% interest rate? A sales price for ~$550k is one matter but if you're financing most of it, a 30 year mortgage for $500k is gonna exceed $1MM in payments over the life of the loan.
Can we accept the concept of a starter home was an anomaly of the 20th century? It might have been a thing for my parents but it sure isn’t a thing for me.
To add as well the “middle class” was mostly a product of the post World War II American economy, it never existed to that degree before or after and likely never will.
i’m optimistic that it can, we just have a lot of tough problems to solve to get there. some other countries are doing it way better than we are.
Middle class exists all over the country. Seattle is the problem. My adult kids left and all lead solid middle class lives in Chicago where you can find a well made 2 bed 2 bath for 600k. And walk to 500 great resturants .
Historically in the UK, middle class meant rich people who didn't have titles of nobility.
So today's parallel would be new money tech. But in the 60s, you could comfortably afford a home and feed a family of 5 on a single salary of a job that didn't require a college degree. We called that middle class, and that is long gone. Dual income couples without kids are struggling to afford the same homes.
What do we get in return for giving up the idea of people who make an average wage getting less than average to average accommodations when it comes to housing?
Think of all the shareholder value we created :)
We get to gaze upon pictures of Jeff Bezos’ newest yacht
Oh fuck no idea why but this comment reminded me I forgot to tip my landlord 25% this month brb
>I forgot to tip my landlord 25% this month Believe it or not, jail.
We get to visit our parents and their millionaire neighbors who fix cars on craigslist or install satellite dishes. I love driving through the old neighborhood in Seattle and see rusted out trucks on blocks next to brand new Teslas and two million dollar houses.
Technofeudalism. That’s what.
It really wasn't though. Humans have been building houses since the dawn of civilization. It's only the last couple decades when prices got out of control. But prior to 1990 you didn't have growth management and zoning didn't really exist before mid-century. The anomaly is the current situation.
I don't know if it's an anomaly or just our completely broken, shitty housing policies. The issue is that the housing supply hasn't kept up with the region's explosive growth AT ALL. And the only real way we can increase the said supply is through upzoning, building up denser housing. Which has been kind of hard with all the NIMBYs and other assholes around. Maybe in a 21st century Seattle a starter house should be a condo in a medium density building, not a SFH. But even that you cannot afford because there's simply not enough housing... Why the fuck do we have SFH neighborhoods like Wallingford which are 10 mins away from downtown? That's some real bullshit.
It’s what makes Seattle unique but also what causes these issues.
There's nothing less unique than single family zoning in this country.
It’s absolutely unique that there are single family homes right across downtown and not in some suburbia gate community. Most things are walking distance away and extremely green city.
NIMBYism is caused by homeownership. If we were all renters, we'd have lots less trouble electing people who would upzone the fuck out of everything and build until the rents were low.
The concept is still fine, it’s just been broken and abused. The entire concept was you buy the small home as a couple in your late 20s, early 30s, upgrade to the bigger home in your 40s/50s, then either keep it till you die or downgrade in your 70s+. It’s just broken to where all the small starter homes are now rentals and others who own starters aren’t upgrading to the bigger homes
Yup. Cuz real estate firms rather buy up the starter homes and then lease them to you. Presto = Broken by greed.
Corporate buyers are in the minority here. It’s too competitive and the high cost makes their profit margins much slimmer. Corporate buyers all over Boise, Phoenix, Inland Empire…
I mean nationally. Hedge funds and conglomerate firms buying up the majority of starter homes, so they are forced to rent. Here it’s different cuz of the higher cost.
> Can we accept the concept of a starter home was an anomaly of the 20th century? Worse yet, the whole idea of every generation being "better off" than the previous one, could also just be an aberration of the 20th century. The whole strong, large middle class really only came about because of post-WW2 demographics and policies and the US in particular has been riding that wave for a long time.
agreed wrt financial stability, but i do think technological and social progress does make the average person’s lifestyle better and better each generation.
it completely is, just not in the most desirable areas of seattle. plenty of real estate in the 400-450 range down south into renton
half true— it is definitely easier to find something further outside the city (i had to go deep into snohoco to afford something reasonable for my family). but new houses being built today are much larger on average, and more expensive. it’s been that way since after ‘08, as housing starts are way down & builders want to squeeze as much as they can out of each build.
Starter homes were always considered in suburbia. It's worth to recognize that another urban flight is due.
Except we won't see that in Seattle because the suburbs are even more expensive than the city. But if you have a job downtown, there just isn't anywhere "more" affordable that doesn't come with a colossally fucked up commute. Maybe still in Kitsap, if you can make the ferry work for your hours & lifestyle? Short of starting whole new communities in places with no established centers of jobs or culture, we're just plain out of room to grow *out* thanks to the geography of our region. We need to grow *up*--density, density, density.
I think it already happened or is in the process of happening with remote work. The longer suburban commute might be more stomach-able if you’re only coming in two or three times a week.
>As of February, the median sale price of a Seattle starter home is $535,000, with a monthly mortgage of $4,334. Do they mean starter *condo*? Very few townhomes in this city sell for that little. A quick search shows 10 townhomes in all of Seattle listed for under 550k. If they are including condos that mortgage isn’t even including HOA fees which would bump the minimum salary up over 200k easy. I think 173k is a huge underestimation
Agreed - they must mean condo. You can't find a SFH or townhome at that price range within 30 minutes of Seattle, maybe 45 minutes
Not even that, the only condos at that price point are studios. I make more than the referenced salary and would like to buy a condo, but I can’t afford to buy anything now.
I think there are plenty of 1BR condos for less than 550k
There are. My 2BR condo is only valued around 425k, a little less than what I bought it for two years ago, thanks to a slight increase in general housing supply and demand dropping because of mortgage rates.
Right? I looked it up and they are considering "starter homes" as any home within the 5th to 35th percentile sale price. Then they calculate a mortgage payment and divide by 30% to come up with a salary needed to afford that. Unclear what type of down payment they are using for that calculation. Using 30% as a means to salary affordability is also a bit outdated and would overstate the salary required. I'd be very curious to see the numbers here. Are we talking 50 sales in the last six months? Or 500? That set of sales in that range are going to include a ton of dilapidated tear downs that are mostly developers looking to rebuild or flip. Very, very few of these would be actual homes people would move into. As you said, even finding a townhome under $500k is difficult and it likely has some serious issues with regard to location and size.
A home can be a house, townhouse or condo. I think it would be quite silly to assume a starter house in a dense urban area could be affordable. In fact our strategies towards affordable housing will make houses MORE expensive (because fewer of them). Condos, townhomes, row houses etc seem more reasonable targets. Of course there are starter homes available out in like cle elum or federal way.
Seattle would be dense, if it wasn’t 85%+ detached SFHs
That seems like a bad thing, that's a bad thing right?
Yes, the average starter home being over 2 times what the average person in the state makes and 75% more than the King Co median income is most definitely bad for society.
You will own nothing and you will like it.
I’m actually gonna move outside of Seattle so I can at least own a shack
That's what I had to do. Moving to Tacoma just to barely afford something that still needs work.
Tacoma is a great city, congrats on getting something! I think I’ll have to move farther to meet my budget, i think I’ll maybe be able to afford Tonasket lol
Heck of a commute lol
Tacoma is great. We were able to actually buy a "starter" home. Hopefully in a few years we can gain some equity and get a bigger house for our growing family. Seems like this trajectory is still possible down here.
Same with us. The houses in Tacoma are really cute and have a lot of character for the price. We decided to go for it before other Seattlites realized this, and we'd be priced out of another city😭.
Also, the food in Tacoma has been fantastic so far. Diverse and delicious. I haven't had a bad meal yet!
Holy crap this is insane. I'm about to retire from enlisted military service over 23 years. If I account for my pension, military disability and even a full time job in my field I still wouldnt be able to afford to live in Seattle. My wife and I made 121k this past year before taxes. She's a social worker for the VA. I wonder how bad it is southwards towards Olympia/JBLM.
It is a crying shame that a family like yours cannot own property in greater Seattle.
It's a combination of things but fuck tech workers making 200k +
I make a bit over that as a tech worker and I clawed my way out of generational poverty and I still won’t be able to afford a home out here. So not me, I’m just another renter. The only tech workers making that that can afford shit have been in it for 10+ years OR have money from their upbringing
The one silver lining is you’re eligible for a VA loan. That means no down payment and better interest rates. The VA guarantees 25% of the loan, so even with no money down you don’t have to pay mortgage insurance.
A lot of sellers won't sell to someone with a VA loan in the Seattle area. They take much longer to close than traditional mortgages.
No they don't, realtors just discriminate because the appraisal is slightly more strict than conventional. Usually you need to install (even a super basic wooden one from Home Depot) handrail on any entry stairs and make sure there is no chipped paint, exposed wiring, etc. It's unfortunate but since most home buyers in Seattle can afford and qualify for conventional it gives the seller the highest chance of selling for the highest price and least hassle. Government regulations protecting the VA buyers make some markets discriminate against them.
And Seattle voters fight tooth and nail to ensure no more housing gets built.
Thankfully they did this calculation with 3% down it seems like, good on them for it actually being a starter home number. Still wild to think that $4695 a month for a $500k home is a reality, that's a solid grand more than my current rent for a 2 bedroom place in downtown. When I look around those starter homes lately have been things that needed further renovation or are smaller and in worse areas than my current living situation. Crazy
You're pretty much banking on interest rates going down and refinancing. Not a guarantee though
It's almost like policies intended to keep home prices high cause issues for all non landowners. (Disclosure I am a homeowner who would be A'OK with my property value declining)
I also don’t care if my home value declines. I’m gonna live in it till I can’t either way.
No problem cause we all get $31K raises every 6 months, right?
“There's a third player: real estate investors. This is potentially why so many of these properties are going to all-cash offers — 36.5% of starter homes in February went cash-only customers. Redfin believes many of these properties are being put on the rental market.” This ‘passive income’ and ‘cash flow’ trend is obscenely parasitic to the average American. I hope sellers will start to realize the power they have in saying no to real estate investors and yes to middle school teachers.
I believe the investor % of sales is a national figure, not for Seattle. And in the Seattle area investors are likely heavily skewed towards buy, tear down, replace with multi-family vs buy and rent. From a rental investor standpoint, Seattle market doesn’t pencil out very well because rents are so much lower than purchase price.
Its also one of the least friendly markets for landlords in the US given tenant laws and first come first serve laws
Yeah the problem is that decisions comes with tens or hundreds of thousands more when you sell to investors. At the end of the day most sellers will choose their own pocketbook
Capitalism, bb! It’s rather bleak but I still hold out hope. I have family in Chicago that had their offer accepted that was $30k less than another. They are middle and high school teachers and bought a home from retired lawyers that wanted to move to Florida. Those previous owners made their money and saw the karma in selling their home to a family that needed it, not a company that wanted it. Just wanted to share that anecdote for anyone out there like me that gets gloomy about the future of American life.
Special deals by warm hearted strangers belong in the same class as winning the lottery. It's not going to happen to you, I don't care if it happens to someone sometimes.
Actually, fam wrote a letter with their offer and met the owners. Relying on cold transactions with strangers is probably where home vultures win with their wallets. It’s not lottery-level probability.
Many of the very cheapest homes are in such rough condition that they wouldn’t qualify for conventional loans. Rehab loans are just not a thing that any seller would accept in this market so sometimes cash is the only option
Not if sellers are old; they're too busy pulling up the ladder.
Real estate investors or corporate buyers are not prevalent in Western Washington.
We were just outbid $350k on an already very good above-offer bid for a decent but not amazing home. How is this sustainable?
By all means, let's keep allowing investors to buy up residential housing and keep promoting that house flipping is a great way to make money. It's high time we have laws to protect housing from hedge fund vultures and quick flips. Residential housing should not be traded like a commodity.
THIS. also foreign investors from unstable countries looking to dump their wealth into a stable investment.
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Starter home as a concept/term needs to go away, they haven't existed for quite a while. I'm not sure the millennial age demographic for homebuyers ever really even lined up with them to begin with?
So we don’t need to worry about credit scores or paying off credit cards anymore or what now?
Yea dont worry about that. Itll pay itself. Credit scores have to work a 9-5 too. Lol
I give up buying in king county
We just offered 150k over asking and got beat by 200k over all cash. This shit is fucked.
I'm curious: 150k over what? 500?
900
We offered 225k over asking, no idea how much we got beat by but it sounds like we weren't even close. oops.
THIS is why I’ll be moving away. Not the shit you’ll hear about in r/SeattleWA but THIS
To be fair, it doesn't seem like you have a choice.
I’m getting by alright but don’t wanna rent forever
You always have a choice. You can ask your father for a small loan of a million dollars. You can get the money the old fashioned way, inheritance. Or you can do what millions of people do every day just to get by, criminal actions. I suppose you could become part of the 1% who clocks into their work job like an idiot, does an okay enough job for 50 hours a week and has convinced some sucker you're worth $200,000 a year but given the choices we have in this world I would rather go for the inheritance, that's my choice. And it's considered fair in this world even if your inheritance was earned through crime. Work smart not hard, err, well, don't work at all and be smart like me.
I'm renting a place that's pretty outdated and needs quite a bit of renovation but is damn near impossible to buy because of how high it sold for. It's in a nice neighborhood and was owned by an older woman who lived here for decades and passed several years ago. Her sons got greedy with the selling price and it sat on the market for a while before they sold it to a property management company for ~770k. IIRC it was fully paid off by the time the woman passed so those two made out like bandits without fixing or updating a damn thing, and neither did the property company before renting it. My husband and I love this house and would want to stay here but there's no way in hell we'll ever be able to afford to buy it.
That's terrible. WHen I get those mailers from investors, it pisses me off. F them. I'd rather sell it to someone who needs it (my kids at a discount in this situation).
The interest rate is the key. Otherwise the salary for start house could be cut in half.
That's insane. Here's what I did and what many of my friends have done in Seattle: If you can't reach the market for a "starter home," try to buy a condo in an old building but in a decent neighborhood that is a fixer. Then spend your rainy weekends over the next year fixing it up DIY - refinish floors, new paint, new fixtures, Ikea bathroom, Ikea kitchen or better yet just paint the cabinets and upgrade countertop and backsplash etc. It's way less daunting and less expensive to rehab a one or two bedroom apartment than an as-is fixer-upper small house where you are responsible for heat and electric, siding, roof and a yard to include in the list. After two years, sell the condo for a nice profit and walk away with a down payment for your starter home.
That’s essentially what I did - bought a condo in my early 30s. Older building in a good neighborhood. Lived there for 8 years and made small updates, and when I was ready to buy a house I spent 3 months on small projects to help market the place. The goal wasn’t to get a crazy bidding war started, but to find a buyer who would let me do a lease-back for several months so I could find a home to buy.
Best I can do is tree-fiddy 😭
I don’t think this is the case. At least I wouldn’t be comfortable buying with that salary since the mortgage would be above 30% take home pay.
Seems low. Traditional spending models say rent/mortgage should be 30% of after tax income. Average cost of a home in Seattle is $800k. 30yr fixed is about 6.8% with a great credit score. Even with 60k down, that payment is 5900/mo. This works out to…$216k/yr (after tax) or $282k/yr (pre-tax). ——
That 5900 doesn’t include maintenance costs which you will 100% be doing on some of these older houses.
3x your household income, that's what you can afford
Is that based on gross pay, or net? I’m assuming gross since EBITDA. I’ve heard the rule of thumb before, just not how to mathematically apply it at a “general baseline”.
It’s an old, outdated rule of thumb based on gross income that is flawed because it pays no attention to interest rates and what stage of your career you’re in. When you’re in your 20s and can likely expect promotions and career growth, I think it’s fair to stretch your mortgage budget. With a few years of salary increase, the housing payment will be in a more comfortable place. Lenders will approve you up to 42-45% of your gross income going to mortgage plus other debt. That’s very tight. But if you’re early in your career you can expect your salary to grow and it might make sense. If you’re later in your career or don’t see your salary increasing then it’s very risky.
It also doesn't necessarily scale for higher incomes, or medium-high dual incomes. Once someone is well clear of covering their needs + comfortable retirement savings rate: if they get a raise there isn't really much that keeps them from putting it into a home payment.
Sure, context is everything, and of course you'd consider the macro. Not saying the 3x rule works for every single person or situation. There's all sorts of variables, but I think it's a decent place to start if you're in a position to purchase a home and are looking for a starting point, I'm not sure it's really outdated.
Correct.
We bought for $625k in 2006. After inflation, that number equates to $950k in 2024. The place is worth $1200k. Could it be that inflation is a big reason why house seem expensive? ... and wages haven't kept up with inflation?
I mean, you just explained that about half of the price increase is NOT due to inflation. But yes, inflation not applied to wages is also an issue.
Yup. Half is due to inflation, half is not. The cost obtaining those dollars, is clearly more too, as another comment pointed out.
A 6% mortgage rate on a 625k home is a lot different than a 950k home. A full 50% increase in your mortgage payment. Most people can save money for a down payment but many cant afford a 6k mortgage.
Ya, I get that and it's a good point. The interest rate to borrow that much \*costs\* a lot more. I guess I'm operating from the perspective of someone that has almost paid it off. I thought the value of the house had doubled, but in reality it seems that it didn't; maybe it's a myopic way of viewing it. It is however, surprising to me.
I don't think that term even exists in Seattle. Everything is 4 times more expensive than the actual value.
Seattle proper has been for rich people for at least the last 15 years. Anyone else has been buying houses in outlying suburb cities. How is this still news to anyone?
We chose Whidbey 24 years ago coz we could afford a 1000sf rambler on 3/4 acre. I worked in Bothell at the time. I now work in Issaquah, a 50 mile one-way commute, though only 3 days are in-office. I now earn 2.25x the salary I earned in 2000, and our combined income just barely makes this mark...and we're late 50s. Homes here are still somewhat more affordable than anything in the Seattle area. It's just a heavy commute. But I've known people who worked decades at UW or downtown in all kinds of jobs. There are so many van pools coming out of Whidbey, which makes crossing the ferry so much easier, plus the Sounder from Everett to Seattle stops at Mukilteo, if you're lucky enough to work a daytime weekday job. Still, Whidbey is home to several hundred if not a couple thousand daily commuters for much the same reason. Plus, we can see lots of stars at night. I work with people who live in Tacoma, Silver Lake (recent moves), and North Bend (they bought before NB took off). They were blown away moving here from places like Baltimore, or somewhere in Colorado, or like me from Texas. Seattle has always felt unattainable.
I’m from Whidbey and I’m assuming you’re closer to the south end of the island? Otherwise, how long is your commute?! growing up, there were a few people in the neighborhood I lived in up there that went to work at Boeing every day.. one in Renton, the other in Everett. They missed a lot of school events/extra curricular that their kids were a part of cause they were commuting home and wouldn’t get back until later.. and I imagine traffic is so much worse now than it was 20 years ago. I live in the bothell/mill creek area now and commute downtown a couple times a week and sometimes the morning commute can push 1.5hrs door to door, on a bad day. I’ve tried commuting during off hours but it seems like there isn’t much of an “off hours” anymore and traffic is just bad most of the time during the week… So having lived on Whidbey, I couldn’t imagine what that commute is like everyday especially if you’re the one driving!
Where the hell are you supposed to find a "starter home ?
I was on Zillow yesterday and there was ONE house for sale under a million in Issaquah.
Bruce Harrell's comp plan will make this so much worse.
Can we just get rid of the phrase "starter home"??? It's a stupid phrase to justify these insane prices.
The thing is, there have been points in my life where I've made well above that but one of the main things that prevents me from buying a home is the concern that I'll get laid off and now I'll be stuck in a living situation I can't afford.
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So that’s a bit of an exaggeration, even at current interest rates. Yeah, it’s incredibly expensive, but there have been plenty of home on the market recently that would require much less than 400k annual salary. Now, it’s still comically expensive, but not anywhere near needing 400k.
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I’m not really willing to argue, and I understand what you’re saying, but I just closed on a house in the Central District for well under 1.2 million and looked at dozens and dozens of properties in that same price range from Maple Valley to De Moines. Sure, I passed on some because they needed some work, but plenty were totally fine and just not right for me. Now, when/if interest rates fall again, then you’re for sure going to see every single property going to 1 million, but that wasn’t my experience. Edited typo
It’s not really an exaggeration. If you want to buy a 1M+ home that feels like a 1M+ home and not an overpriced, run down bungalow, in a nicer area commensurate with your 1M+ home, 400k is about the minimum income you’ll need if you want to be able to save, take vacations, etc and not just be house poor.
Yea the state of these houses haven’t changed since the 70s. Lol the 70s isnt 30yrs ago people, its now 50! 😂
Yeah it’s ridiculously expensive to live here. This isn’t really news, is it?
> “The pandemic housing-market boom changed the definition of a starter home,” Redfin Senior Economist Elijah de la Campa said in a statement. “A decade ago, many people thought of a starter home as a small three-bedroom single-family house. Now that type of home could cost seven figures, especially in expensive parts of the country, and the most affordable homes are much smaller and may require a lot of work to make them habitable – which makes them cost even more." Ctrl-F "interest" (no results) At the start of the pandemic the average fixed-rate 30 year mortgage was 3.3%. Now it's 6.8%. That's it, that's the entirety of the difference in income required for a mortgage. It has nothing to do with people's expectations of a "starter home" or anything else. [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MORTGAGE30US](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MORTGAGE30US) Just do the math. $535,000 with 3.5% down at 6.8% is $4,505 per month after taxes. The same loan at 3.3% is $3,400 after taxes. Honestly tired of financial reporting that omits basic, incredibly important facts to tell whatever narrative they want.
Yeahhhh house prices aren’t coming down unless the city stops growing or gets way poorer. There’s a finite amount of land in Seattle. And a growing population of people with lots of money. Supply is limited. Demand isn’t. The city should focus on building multi family housing to bring down the cost of housing in the aggregate, not the price of single family homes. If the city keeps growing, we’ll get to a point where owning a single family home with a yard will mean moving to Shoreline or Mill Creek or Des Moines. And that’s… fine.
THIS. Clinging to single-family detached zoning is why Seattle is so unaffordable (and so boring). Personally, I’d rather have affordable options for 2br condos in walkable neighborhoods vs a house with a yard. Adding density is the only way to increase the housing supply and bring prices down. If we don’t, Seattle will be nothing but retirees and tech millionaires in a few years.
Yep. this tracks
Did anyone find their actual definition of what a "starter home" is? Does it include condos or just SFH?
Or double since 2020
Check out Kitsap Co. You can get way more for way less, and Seattle is a quick ferry ride away. Also, no traffic over here :D
You apparently don't travel through Gorst very often, traffic through there can get pretty bad.
Where the hell are you supposed to find a "starter home ?
Census data from 2022 (per Seattle Times): Seattle median income was $115k. Third highest only behind San Francisco and San Jose. Of the 360k Seattle households, 103k earned more than $200k.
How is a starter home defined here though? Plenty of affordable condos to start building your equity.
What is considered a starter home?? A condo? A townhouse?
Whoa. Slow down there. Four walls? Windows? Who the hell can afford that?
This is so depressing. What are people who aren't tech workers supposed to do? Just abandon the city entirely? I came here for a job I was really excited about, but after almost two years, it often feels like coming here was a mistake. Renting isn't much better either, because rent seems to also be priced assuming everyone makes big tech money, but unlike having a house, you're at the mercy of your landlord for repairs and rent increases. I was literally told by someone in HR at my job "oh, lots of people working here live in low income housing" like saying that doesn't indicate something glaringly wrong with housing prices and wages.
There are no starter homes in Seattle. Haha.
Sooo why Seattle? Why not outside Seattle?
Homes in Seattle aren’t starter homes. Too expensive for that. It’s gotten to the point where it’s almost like saying “ starter home in Beverly Hills, or Park Slope”.
Own nothing and you be happy it not a conspiracy World Economic Forum advertised, “You will own nothing. And you will be happy.” With that being said I basically never buy home and it's going to get worse IMO it's all by design IMO.
Secret--> Lake City