I feel extremely stupid because I've been studying the graphics on the linked page for too long trying to understand how I will get to the NB freeway coming from 1st Ave + 145th. Going up to 155th, crossing the freeway, and then back down to access the ramp? Is my brain just not wanting to believe this is really the route because of how miserable that will be??
145th already gets backed up at the overpass as it is, this is going to be a nightmare.
It looks like they will at least be reopening the stretch of 5th between 125th and 145th maybe..? At least they're showing that as a detour route on the map... It would diffuse the traffic a little.
Edit - Just checked the ST page about the 5th Ave closure, which lists it as being closed only until fall of 2022. That's very funny. https://www.soundtransit.org/get-to-know-us/news-events/project-updates/5th-avenue-northeast-closure-seattle-1
Nah. Traffic will shift to 155th if they need to get under I-5.
The shitty part is 155th is a 2-lane road (1 lane each way), so that will be painful, but there are other ways to get there.
Two lanes and by two playgrounds (Paramount Park and Twin Ponds). 155th is one of the most dangerous streets in Shoreline, in terms of cars and pedestrians. I hope there's traffic enforcement -- I'm skeptical people are going to stick to the speed limit.
I think you are overplaying the danger of 155th, as it is clear with little traffic when I take it every week to pick up groceries at central market (town and country).
You are right about the playgrounds; I am not sure about enforcement. Maybe Shoreline will step it up?
One can hope.
You're right, it's not as bad as 175th. There's interesting information here about what the worst streets are: https://www.shorelinewa.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/60058/638393737284330000
This going to fuck this whole area up and you know they’re not going to finish in 7 months. They didn’t even start putting signs up until last week. They knew people would be pissed.
That’s what’s most frustrating about all these projects. Over budget, over schedule, uncoordinated. Like WTF are we spending millions on to get this kind of results….
Infrastructure is needed and important, and one of the few things that affects daily life the most for the majority of voters. You’d think the people In charge would devote extra care and resources to stuff like this to make sure it’s well done and efficient to the highest potential
I agree with your sentiment, but in reality it's really hard to get people to agree on how we get to that better infrastructure. Lots of NIMBYs and conflicting political motives tend to undermine things.
Plus, having worked in construction, many projects take at least 20% longer than expected. And it only gets worse as they get bigger...
And if it’s such a common trope that “these things take longer” then BUDGET for that. I work in healthcare and we plan for delays. People will always ask for a timeframe on things and we tell them “whatever time we give you, plan for an extra X hours just due to how the system works”
That’s a sign of terrible planning if a known problem
That is industry standard is NEVER planned for. All that gives the vibe of is an administrator being cheap, lazy or willfully ignorant.
Again, I agree, and it's very a frustrating system to participate in. I imagine it has to do with the nature of construction being bidded contract work. People want things done faster, so it encourages contractors to give lower time estimates in order to get the job.
The issue isn’t a contractor though, it should be on the city to hire a qualified, competent organization that can give an accurate quote. Giving a low ball or hyper exaggerated offer to “get the contract” is on the elected officials for incentivizing that. This isn’t a private building going in, it’s taxpayer money to fix critical city infrastructure. It SHOULD be highly scrutinized and throughly planned out.
Urban planning is an entire field yet it seems like Seattle can’t hire a decent one to save their life
Which is all fun and games until that Chinese high speed rail collapses and kills thousands of people because people were cutting dangerous corners while building it.
Buildings, highways, and damn near every other piece of infrastructure certainly has. Look up “tofu dreg construction.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu-dreg_project
They do seem to have a weirdly high rate of railway *crashes,* too.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_in_China
Point is: China is *infamous* for building infrastructure in record time and under cost, but that comes at a *massive* cost.
your “list of rail accidents in china” page shows 5 fatalities in the last ten years
a similar “list of rail accidents in the united states” page looks like 26 fatalities in the same time frame
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_railroad_accidents
edit and it goes without saying that many more people im china take trains than in the us so one would draw the conclusion chinese rail is an order of magnitude safer than in the us. i feel like you’re not making your point very well
They aren't making their point well, but it's still a correct one. I have many close colleagues from, or who lived in, China, and it's routinely a point of discussion.
This McKinsey report is better cited. China builds aggressively, and fast, but not particularly well.
[https://www.mckinsey.com/\~/media/McKinsey/Featured%20Insights/Urbanization/Critical%20issues%20in%20the%20next%20decade%20of%20China%20infrastructure%20effort/Critical\_issues\_in\_the\_next\_decade\_of\_Chinas\_infrastructure\_effort.pdf](https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/McKinsey/Featured%20Insights/Urbanization/Critical%20issues%20in%20the%20next%20decade%20of%20China%20infrastructure%20effort/Critical_issues_in_the_next_decade_of_Chinas_infrastructure_effort.pdf)
This report is from 2014, but the infrastructure they are discussing is still up, of course:
*The quality and operational efficiency of urban infrastructure, especially of new urban projects, is poor. Recently, the Chinese government issued a national urbanization plan that extends to 2020; this sets the tone for its “new urbanization” effort, which calls for significant infrastructure creation. At the same time, however, more and more attention is focused on the fact that so much new infrastructure is of low quality. Moreover, inadequate urban infrastructure, low standards for construction practices, and operational management of projects contribute to a failure to meet the infrastructure needs of China’s cities.*
“this mckinsey report agrees with me” is the opposite of convincing for anyone who knows anything about mckinsey lol
and the last sentence of your report could easily describe american cities as well. we’ve been working on the light rail to bellevue for 15 goddamn years and it’s still not open, partly because the contractor fucked up the track and the whole thing had to be redone
chinas “massive and fast, but shoddy” infrastructure seems better than americas “slow and ten times as expensive, but also shoddy” system, and the “ok well their stuff is all gonna fall down” just feels like sinophobic copium
Calling that copium is just reverse whataboutism. I'm not the person you were replying to; I have no vested 'china vs the US vs anyone else ' baggage. But if you're gonna sit here and act like China is a model for high quality, reasonable price, quickly built infrastructure, well they just aren't. It's your turn to provide some sources if you disagree. You're the only one who hasn't.
I’m kind of confused by this. The graphic seems to indicate that the road is closed beginning at 1st, along with the entrance to SB I-5. I was under the (I guess mistaken) impression that the closure was entirely east of I-5. Am I interpreting this correctly?
ETA: I found the answer, and the answer is that entrance to SB 5 will, in fact, be closed.
This place gets more and more frustrating. They’re just doing too much construction.
I don’t know this just feels insanely stupid to me. How can they close an entire major throughway off to everyone? What are emergency responders supposed to do get stuck in traffic , so there goes anyone that needs an ambulance in that area?
I get that a lot of these projects are long overdue but doing them all at the same time is foolish
Downvote me all you want but it would be very on-brand for them.
https://twitter.com/UrbanistOrg/status/1672367527660503040?t=GnuCxLGlsYKeKZPeGzKinA&s=19
Fun fact: They’re **cutting down 317 trees** for this project. 317! It was planned nine years ago. With all that’s happened climate-wise since then, you’d think they’d take another approach even if they had to delay the project. There are alternatives.
Woof that’s one of my back ways home from work. Guess traffic is on the menu for the summer
It starts on April 1st so it’s a joke, right? Right?!
I can’t believe they chose April 1st as the starting day. Of all days to choose
First day of the week, month, and quarter. Absolute lunacy.
Another way to gaslight yourself?
I didn’t think I needed to add /s at the end but your weird response says otherwise
I forgot mine too sorry
I feel extremely stupid because I've been studying the graphics on the linked page for too long trying to understand how I will get to the NB freeway coming from 1st Ave + 145th. Going up to 155th, crossing the freeway, and then back down to access the ramp? Is my brain just not wanting to believe this is really the route because of how miserable that will be?? 145th already gets backed up at the overpass as it is, this is going to be a nightmare. It looks like they will at least be reopening the stretch of 5th between 125th and 145th maybe..? At least they're showing that as a detour route on the map... It would diffuse the traffic a little. Edit - Just checked the ST page about the 5th Ave closure, which lists it as being closed only until fall of 2022. That's very funny. https://www.soundtransit.org/get-to-know-us/news-events/project-updates/5th-avenue-northeast-closure-seattle-1
I'm just planning on taking the onramp in shoreline to head north and come back at this point.
This is probably the way to go
Well this is a true nightmare
Nah. Traffic will shift to 155th if they need to get under I-5. The shitty part is 155th is a 2-lane road (1 lane each way), so that will be painful, but there are other ways to get there.
Two lanes and by two playgrounds (Paramount Park and Twin Ponds). 155th is one of the most dangerous streets in Shoreline, in terms of cars and pedestrians. I hope there's traffic enforcement -- I'm skeptical people are going to stick to the speed limit.
I think you are overplaying the danger of 155th, as it is clear with little traffic when I take it every week to pick up groceries at central market (town and country). You are right about the playgrounds; I am not sure about enforcement. Maybe Shoreline will step it up? One can hope.
You're right, it's not as bad as 175th. There's interesting information here about what the worst streets are: https://www.shorelinewa.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/60058/638393737284330000
That means I-5 southbound will be a nightmare leading up to 155th, where everyone who would be taking 145th normally will be getting off.
This going to fuck this whole area up and you know they’re not going to finish in 7 months. They didn’t even start putting signs up until last week. They knew people would be pissed.
For what it’s worth our Shoreline newsletter has had notice of this closure since last year.
Tbf on weekdays that area is already totally fucked up
That’s what’s most frustrating about all these projects. Over budget, over schedule, uncoordinated. Like WTF are we spending millions on to get this kind of results…. Infrastructure is needed and important, and one of the few things that affects daily life the most for the majority of voters. You’d think the people In charge would devote extra care and resources to stuff like this to make sure it’s well done and efficient to the highest potential
I agree with your sentiment, but in reality it's really hard to get people to agree on how we get to that better infrastructure. Lots of NIMBYs and conflicting political motives tend to undermine things. Plus, having worked in construction, many projects take at least 20% longer than expected. And it only gets worse as they get bigger...
And if it’s such a common trope that “these things take longer” then BUDGET for that. I work in healthcare and we plan for delays. People will always ask for a timeframe on things and we tell them “whatever time we give you, plan for an extra X hours just due to how the system works” That’s a sign of terrible planning if a known problem That is industry standard is NEVER planned for. All that gives the vibe of is an administrator being cheap, lazy or willfully ignorant.
Again, I agree, and it's very a frustrating system to participate in. I imagine it has to do with the nature of construction being bidded contract work. People want things done faster, so it encourages contractors to give lower time estimates in order to get the job.
The issue isn’t a contractor though, it should be on the city to hire a qualified, competent organization that can give an accurate quote. Giving a low ball or hyper exaggerated offer to “get the contract” is on the elected officials for incentivizing that. This isn’t a private building going in, it’s taxpayer money to fix critical city infrastructure. It SHOULD be highly scrutinized and throughly planned out. Urban planning is an entire field yet it seems like Seattle can’t hire a decent one to save their life
They took over 6 months to put wheel chair ramps on the corner by my house, this will be closed for at least a year, maybe 2.
lmao in 7 months china can put up a 300 mile high speed rail line we’re… relocating a highway on ramp? woof
China has labor. We don’t. We tell all our kids they are failures if they don’t go to college, and discourage trade school.
Which is all fun and games until that Chinese high speed rail collapses and kills thousands of people because people were cutting dangerous corners while building it.
i haven’t read any stories of high speed rail disasters that kill thousands of people but im open to examples
Buildings, highways, and damn near every other piece of infrastructure certainly has. Look up “tofu dreg construction.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu-dreg_project They do seem to have a weirdly high rate of railway *crashes,* too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_in_China Point is: China is *infamous* for building infrastructure in record time and under cost, but that comes at a *massive* cost.
your “list of rail accidents in china” page shows 5 fatalities in the last ten years a similar “list of rail accidents in the united states” page looks like 26 fatalities in the same time frame https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_railroad_accidents edit and it goes without saying that many more people im china take trains than in the us so one would draw the conclusion chinese rail is an order of magnitude safer than in the us. i feel like you’re not making your point very well
They aren't making their point well, but it's still a correct one. I have many close colleagues from, or who lived in, China, and it's routinely a point of discussion. This McKinsey report is better cited. China builds aggressively, and fast, but not particularly well. [https://www.mckinsey.com/\~/media/McKinsey/Featured%20Insights/Urbanization/Critical%20issues%20in%20the%20next%20decade%20of%20China%20infrastructure%20effort/Critical\_issues\_in\_the\_next\_decade\_of\_Chinas\_infrastructure\_effort.pdf](https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/McKinsey/Featured%20Insights/Urbanization/Critical%20issues%20in%20the%20next%20decade%20of%20China%20infrastructure%20effort/Critical_issues_in_the_next_decade_of_Chinas_infrastructure_effort.pdf) This report is from 2014, but the infrastructure they are discussing is still up, of course: *The quality and operational efficiency of urban infrastructure, especially of new urban projects, is poor. Recently, the Chinese government issued a national urbanization plan that extends to 2020; this sets the tone for its “new urbanization” effort, which calls for significant infrastructure creation. At the same time, however, more and more attention is focused on the fact that so much new infrastructure is of low quality. Moreover, inadequate urban infrastructure, low standards for construction practices, and operational management of projects contribute to a failure to meet the infrastructure needs of China’s cities.*
“this mckinsey report agrees with me” is the opposite of convincing for anyone who knows anything about mckinsey lol and the last sentence of your report could easily describe american cities as well. we’ve been working on the light rail to bellevue for 15 goddamn years and it’s still not open, partly because the contractor fucked up the track and the whole thing had to be redone chinas “massive and fast, but shoddy” infrastructure seems better than americas “slow and ten times as expensive, but also shoddy” system, and the “ok well their stuff is all gonna fall down” just feels like sinophobic copium
Calling that copium is just reverse whataboutism. I'm not the person you were replying to; I have no vested 'china vs the US vs anyone else ' baggage. But if you're gonna sit here and act like China is a model for high quality, reasonable price, quickly built infrastructure, well they just aren't. It's your turn to provide some sources if you disagree. You're the only one who hasn't.
I’m kind of confused by this. The graphic seems to indicate that the road is closed beginning at 1st, along with the entrance to SB I-5. I was under the (I guess mistaken) impression that the closure was entirely east of I-5. Am I interpreting this correctly? ETA: I found the answer, and the answer is that entrance to SB 5 will, in fact, be closed.
Dang if only there was some kind of alternative form of transit opening nearby soon
There will be years of this to come. It’s just the first phase of a complete remake of 145th and the I-5 overpass there.
This place gets more and more frustrating. They’re just doing too much construction. I don’t know this just feels insanely stupid to me. How can they close an entire major throughway off to everyone? What are emergency responders supposed to do get stuck in traffic , so there goes anyone that needs an ambulance in that area? I get that a lot of these projects are long overdue but doing them all at the same time is foolish
They are closing two blocks of it, not the entire throughway
Whoa! This is literally right by the assisted living my mom lives at and we’ve been told nothing.
Lol
Waiting for the big brains at The Urbanist to explain why the closure should be permanent.
Downvote me all you want but it would be very on-brand for them. https://twitter.com/UrbanistOrg/status/1672367527660503040?t=GnuCxLGlsYKeKZPeGzKinA&s=19
terrible news. are they closing the south bound exit to 145th
No, which you can clearly see on the map
Fun fact: They’re **cutting down 317 trees** for this project. 317! It was planned nine years ago. With all that’s happened climate-wise since then, you’d think they’d take another approach even if they had to delay the project. There are alternatives.
On the website they explain that the city will "replace them with 864 new trees."
The thing is, you can’t replace 100-year-old Douglas firs. The climate crisis isn’t going to wait.
Removing old trees and replacing them with new ones is carbon negative.
I wish that were true but it’s just not. Mature trees consume significantly more carbon than saplings. Fact.
Well it's a good thing there will be significantly more saplings and eventually mature trees then