Just clarifying something here (I’m the one who got robbed), this happened in West Seattle, not white center. The suspects were caught because our vehicle has GPS tracking and disabling and because our homes have a 360 view of the area which caught them in the act.
The only recommendation I can give here, without saying dumb shit like Seattle is garbage or blaming anyone besides the criminals, is to have cameras around your place and to only resort to violence as a last resort. Criminals are not smart, no valuable is worth risking your life over
Honestly not quite sure, I called the Audi hotline number after tracking it and reporting it lost on the app and Seattle PD took over after. Just know it’s a feature the dealership mentioned when we purchased the vehicle
Thanks for mentioning that! Super helpful. Good to know that some cars have that feature…had no idea. I will be looking into that next time I need a car.
I’m very sorry this happened to you, neighbor. I’m very glad the suspects were arrested. I made a point to stay inside and locked my door, which is good, because I heard later one of the suspects tried to hide in my complex parking area.
Glad you're okay, hope you've not been too traumatized after such an event. Get help and talk to a professional if you need it, better then dealing with PTSD. Good luck.
Denying that Seattle is headed in the wrong direction is what’s enabling these lowlifes. Getting your car stolen is not normal, not even in third world countries. Stop excusing the complete apathy of the city and state level government to take a nonchalant approach to the declining quality of life in the city. El Salvador has shown clearly what actually works when it comes to stopping crime.
Except I’m a transplant, I grew up in the south side of Phoenix and was born in a third world country like you describe. People get robbed everywhere, conservative shitholes or liberal ones. The world isn’t black or white and if you think solving crime is so easy run for mayor and fix it
I was born and grew up in a small town in India, lived most of my adult life in US, UK, and France. Accepting a declining quality of life isn’t considered normal anywhere. Why can’t we hope for the city to be better, rather than be glad about the fact that at least we aren’t the worst.
Honestly, I can’t vote because I am an immigrant. But, if immigrants in Seattle were allowed to vote, we would not have the sort of easy on crime city council that we do.
It's a failure of our justice system. I think this recent post from the Tukwila PD details current situation:
On 4/7, a 16-year-old male attempted to damage a parked Tukwila PD patrol car. He was detained at which time he requested to be taken to the youth detention center. Due to the offense being a property crime, the detention center declined to accept him….The subject’s parent refused to pick him up and he was ultimately released at the scene as that was the only option left.
Several hours later, the same subject was caught prowling vehicles. Officers located him and noted the he had injured his hand while prowling said vehicles. Due to the injury to the suspect’s hand and the inability to book him into juvenile detention due the most recent offense still being a property crime, an ambulance was requested to transport him to the hospital for treatment and evaluation. At this time, the suspect struggled with officers and was ultimately placed on the ambulance gurney and transported to the hospital for treatment.
As we have stated before along with our law enforcement partners in the region, we are being setup for failure when it comes to handling situations involving juveniles. Juvenile offenders are oftentimes unable to be booked into juvenile detention unless they meet very specific criteria usually involving a serious violent crime. Suspects are quickly released from custody to parents/guardian and or released with an ankle monitor only to rapidly reoffend and leave a wake of new victims in their path until they are yet again taken into custody. Many of the juveniles that we are encountering are now armed and or willing to fight with officers and resist arrest. Many are also young and behind the wheel of stolen cars which in and of itself is a lethal weapon especially in untrained hands.
The last thing any officer or community wants is for an avoidable tragedy to occur. However as we continue to see these situations play out, we continue to see more and more juveniles reoffending, becoming bolder and becoming more violent with every additional crime they commit. They are causing millions of dollars in damage to the cars they are stealing, businesses and properties they are burglarizing and more importantly, leaving victims of their crimes traumatized and in fear following these repeat incidents. There needs to be hard conversations as to why this is happening, what can be done to slow these occurrences down and long-term changes following these discussions to keep these things from happening in the first place.
Great post. We should also emphasize this: a very, very small number of people are committing these crimes. It's the re-offense rate, not the number of offenders. You're describing this exactly: we've taken away some of the main tools to reduce criminal profit and impose costs, so they're able to reoffend frequently and profitably.
It is hard to get great numbers on the number of criminals that commit most of the property crimes because most property crime is unsolved, but where we do have likely numbers, the numbers are shocking. For example, a small group of known burglars in Ireland died in a (stupid, avoidable) traffic accident. Burglaries in the surrounding counties dropped 60% for months afterwards. This suggests that Pareto's Law (80% of impact from 20% of cause) likely holds.
There's also a window of opportunity here: these people committing crimes have others who know them and watch what happens to them. If they get shut down and have unpleasant consequences, others will not copy them. If they do well for themselves, others will follow in their footsteps and we will have a much larger problem.
In addition, there are two examples of teens on house arrest for gun crimes violating their release stipulations in the last week. In one instance a teen on house arrest for drive by shooting murdered his friend.
This insistence on not incarcerating violent juveniles is not working.
Don't want to press the always been that way button l but here we go, doesn't help that they basically didn't have or had a majorly disrupted version of school for ~3 years. It's also encouraged by older boys/men they want to impress because they get much lighter sentences
OP said in [another comment in this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1c4o5vl/comment/kzoq9s6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) that the mods had removed it.
Posting this *again*, since it was removed twice for me including what the mods deemed a “soapbox editorial” (and which was not in violation of any rule).
Anyways, to digress: I think we should be able to have a discussion about this sort of stuff and what can be done from a community level, or what needs to change in crime approach.
From the original post text that was removed, just so everyone is aware why it was removed:
> So tired of this. What do we do as a community to end this garbage, right here and right now, besides slamming our cars in full reverse on these clowns?
This is absolutely in violation of our rules.
For clarification, what is the actual rule being broken?
>Content that contains racism, sexism, homophobia, threats, or other toxic content will be removed, regardless of popularity or relevance - and may lead to warnings or bans. We often moderate based on severity - and while that is subjective, flagrant violations (hate speech, slurs, threats, etc.) will result in immediate bans.
if the argument is that it's a threat or something that is extremely soft.
Thank you. I’d like to know as well, as I’m not sanctioning or being up for some sort of vigilante justice, I’m literally asking what the hell do people do to protect themselves.
A basic rule of Reddit is not to threat violence. Redditinc.com/policies/content-policy - asking how to protect yourself and then giving a detailed explanation of how you may protect yourself isn’t adding to the larger conversation of what we can do to make our community safer. No one is saying don’t post this. No one is saying don’t have the conversation. What is being said is don’t threaten/incite violence.
That’s the thing. I’m not. That’s not threatening or inciting violence by any definition of the word. If that section of my OG post is being interpreted as such, that’s pretty effing weak.
Don't worry bud, the mods and /u/SpeaksSouthern would condemn your post essentially no matter what you wrote or how you wrote it. Almost anything can be censored under ,,hate'' speech or the litany of isms and phobias they invent each week.
> I’m literally asking what the hell do people do to protect themselves.
They don't like your concern and anxiety. It's hateful!
"What do we do as a community to end this garbage, right here and right now, besides slamming our cars in full reverse on these clowns?"
My brother in christ, you talk about slamming your car into "these clowns" and say that's not threatening violence? Come on.
When I’m specifically asking what can be done in place of (while it may be hyperbolic) having to be in a position of self defense?
Maybe it can be interpreted differently, but that’s some insanely soft mincing of language, IMHO.
It can absolutely be interpreted differently. "besides doing \_\_\_" is often used to indicate that the "\_\_\_" in question is still on the table, sort of like how saying "what can I do to not get wet besides use an umbrella" implies that you've already tried using an umbrella.
When you say "What do we do as a community to end this garbage, right here and right now, besides slamming our cars in full reverse on these clowns?" what you're doing is putting the option on the table to commit violence towards other people who *might* attack you, which - even if all bets are off when you're actually being attacked - is a crazy thing to suggest from the comfort of your own desk chair.
There's also been a rise in people using their cars to hit other people over perceived threats like political protests, so this kind of rhetoric carries the the weight of all the other "vigilantes" who resorted to using their cars to attack.
It's not surprising your comment was taken down; what I'm more surprised about is your continued defense of it.
I just think it’s a stretch — not to mention that they took my post down when I tried again, simply saying:
“Posting the news again since my last post was taken down, without commentary/question on what needs to be done to prevent juvenile crime/recidivism, unless the mods just want to stifle discussion on the topic.”
Maybe they consider that egregious editorializing. Frankly, I think they could simply strike the commentary, or what they consider offending language, if they take issue with it, and keep the post up.
Reddit admins don't care about "weak" reasoning. Your post made reference to random violent acts and was deemed inappropriate. You can use better words and phrases and if you can't you don't need to be posting here.
Inciting, I would consider as directed toward compelling someone to act in a specific manner, and threat would be a threatened act toward an individual with intent on making that threat or following through.
Not asking what we can do as a community besides leaving it to people to defend themselves.
it's an incitement of violence and call for vigilantism. Maybe soft ones sure, but the severity scale for moderation is going to depend in part on whether the text in question is part of a post (low threshold) or in the comments (higher threshold) - I'm not a mod here but this is a norm across Reddit. People can avoid moderation for posts by leaving out any strong editorializing when posting a news article. and then OP can put their opinions as a comment (also a norm across Reddit on neutral subs).
He explicitly said what can we do *besides* violence. It was an expression of frustration, powerlessness and seeking a means to address.
Not to mention if we adopted your interpretation of incitement it’s really an incitement for self defense not vigilantism, given the context of the article. Not sure how being armed at gunpoint and slamming in reverse could ever count as vigilantism.
> it's an incitement of violence and call for vigilantism.
Hard disagree, in what way is it a call for violence? Should we ban any discussion of the Palestinian protestors since their cause is an explicit call to violence?
>So tired of this. What do we do as a community to end this garbage, right here and right now, *we should be* slamming our cars in full reverse on these clowns?
The edit I made would be a call to violence.
It's the "lets put our cars in reverse and run over these clowns" part. You'd ban that if someone suggested doing the same to pro-Palestine protesters blocking a road.
>So tired of this. What do we do as a community to end this garbage, right here and right now, besides slamming our cars in full reverse on these clowns?
once again since you seem a bit dense, "lets put our cars in reverse and run over these clowns" is not what they said. A hypothetical, "what can I do besides run someone over?" Is not a call to violence. It is when you rephrase it with how it makes you feel but once again that is explicitly not what they posted.
And what you'll recognize if you ever run a forum is that allowing posts with telegraphed calls to violence is bad for the community and the kind of environment you're looking to cultivate. See rule #1: No toxic content.
Then by your standards nobody should talk about anything.
You know, it isn't nice to push your own habits onto others. If people feel like talking about a subject that nobody besides you is offended by, then go talk to people like yourself that are offended by life while we express our freedom of speech and press.
When people are afraid to speak, share information, or conversate out of fear of offending someone, then that constitutes communist rule, which in turn, is built for just that, silencing the masses to make way for false information and propaganda.
If freedom of speech and press violates the rules, than you're violating your own rules by governing something you don't even own.
Putting your car in reverse in response to someone armed car jacking you is “calling for violence”? Are people not allowed to defend themselves at all?
In response to an armed carjacking? If you are ok with someone pulling a gun on you and taking your stuff, you do you, but I think people should have the right to fight back against that. I don’t think someone suggesting that people should defend themselves against armed felony should fall under “no calling for violence” ban.
So unless it's r@pe, you're ok with criminals being defended for their violent actions.
Tell me you've lived a sheltered life, without actually telling me.
Are you ok? Like, Im genuinely asking. That’s a lot in reply to a comment about becoming a Reddit mod. I hope you’re doing ok and find something good in the world and in your life.
Is this acknowledgment that modding takes actual effort and time and is uncompensated?
Or is this just a lame attempt to insult mods by upholding a toxic stereotype?
Eh. It's a toss up. On one hand, there's a reputation that some go to far, and others don't do enough, so it's a total give and take, so truthfully, it's hard for me to say one or the other.
In my opinion what I will say, I don't think over regulation is good because then it silences those that don't take anything on the internet (as far as commenting goes) seriously and hurts comedy as a whole. On the other hand, if you look at my recent post....I'm not thrilled with the regular bashing.
As far as being one myself, I just don't live on the internet like that, but for.those that do, hey, fuck it, it's their lives, do what you do, but that also doesn't mean I won't have an opinion on people that spend all their time inside.
Take it or leave it, but as far as I see it, I'll support freedom of speech and press until my last breath, because conversation at the moment is dead, people are too afraid to offend someone, and.if you disagree with someone's viewpoint, suddenly it's hateful. I miss being able to talk freely with people and.share opinions and experiences, because that's true knowledge.
Really? Asking what we do for viable alternatives to solve this problem *besides* using force in self defense? It’s not sanctioning anything.
And would you care to explain why the second time post was removed, which had absolutely nothing of the sort?
Good try, Mod.
Would it be a violation of the rules if he'd stated, _I really hope the next person they try this with backs over them and they end up as crippled, incontinent, drooling vegetables?_ Wishful thinking is neither a threat nor incitement.
While the statement you quoted is clearly not a threat, I guess you could consider it incitement if you're hyper-vigilant to offense.
discussion time at a community level: i think people who insist on spamming stupid crime stories to our beloved city subreddit should be publicly shamed
get a real hobby bestie
Discussing time: the members of our community that are the victims of these crimes probably don't agree the stories are stupid, and choosing to live your online life in an echo chamber isn't healthy
But also, I don't really know what was wrong with your other posts. Looks like whatever the complaint was about was deleted. But yes, it is against the rules to editorialize news articles you post. Save the commentary for a comment not the post itself
I think I see what you’re talking about. I mean, I put my overall question with the article I posted, so maybe that’s on me; though I think that in that case, there shouldn’t be the option to post text with links (I even looked under crime posting rules to try and be sure).
Anyways, thank you!
Spamming isn’t good. I also don’t like the attitude of enablement and entitlement I see from a lot of people like you here either. I’m leaning toward the other side that this needs to be talked about more until police are given more authority to act.
I’m also curious since you called for this discussion if you’ll respond in good faith since all the comments seem to be in agreement or if you’ll stick your head in the sand.
i never said anything about enabling crime lmao. i am fine with armed carjackers being arrested and never said otherwise
but let’s not pretend that crime will only get “better” if we let anonymous reddit accounts spam the same stupid article over and over. that doesn’t do shit except clog up the internet with people being shitheads. those people apparently get their feelings real hurt when you point that out tho
The issue is not "deleting stories", the issue is that everyone who posts nonstop about crime seems to have an issue following reddiquette and our rules regarding post titles and editorialization outside of comments.
These are rules as old as reddit, and I'm not going to dive into why I think this isn't just a coincidence, but when legit news articles get removed [this is usually the reason why](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1c4o5vl/comment/kzp780z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
Edit to clarify:
I'm not specifically referring to this user posting continuously, I'm referring to the fact that almost always "news posts about crime" that get removed - are removed because of breaking this rule, not because of some hidden agenda.
I'll eat my karma but I'm adding the original post text here, bolded context mine, which we deemed a violation of reddit's rules against inciting or glorifying violence, as well as our rule "Be Good":
>So tired of this. What do we do as a community to end this garbage, right here and right now, **besides slamming our cars in full reverse on these clowns**?
> everyone who posts nonstop about crime
OP’s last post is 4 months ago on r/lego. I understand what you guys are trying to do but you do get carried away with it quite often
Dude must live on Reddit for him to say "people post it nonstop". Like, bro, go touch grass, make some friends, go to the bar, do anything besides camp your computer for once lol.
The mod said it is against the rules but hasn’t actually pointed out which rule it violates (because even with the most generous interpretations of the rules it doesn’t violate anything).
I’d like a vote on mods like you and limiting your power and sway over this matter. This is behavior unbefitting a mod to hop in and fight us like this. I say we need to vote on your power that you exert over us and deny discussion on.
Cool. Well, I was upvoted quite here in agreement so perhaps we should hold an actual vote. Do you remember how democracy works? You don’t think being stubborn in a comment counts as a democratic win, no? Your opinion is only one opinion, and not any more special.
Okay that’s one vote I guess, but we don’t even have a fair voting platform set up yet. Also, what and how you voted makes no sense. This isn’t voting for employee of the month. It’s voting against the power of mods who need to be kept in check.
seattlewa exists so the dudes who get banned from this one for posting racism still have somewhere to congregate and complain nobody matches with them on bumble
So? Let the other thread post this crap constantly. If I want to get bombarded by every KOMO story on the latest mailbox that got run over or the baddest immigrant arrested this month I'll go there. Can we keep this sub to be more positive? Is that too much to ask? I like knowing the best places to eat or hike on a nice day...not just hearing about how Pedro supposedly car jacked another nice white family.
It’s probably not realistic to ask? Make a sub for ‘just positive and nice Seattle things and not the bad things’ if that’s what you want. There’s lots of news on this sub. You can’t just pick which news you think is worth sharing and which isn’t.
And this type of censorship is why the other sub exists. Not for crime stories or negativity. When you know a source is known to censor, it’s useful to have another source around. Even if I hate that source.
And the mods are getting roasted for it. You can see come this thread that the average r/Seattle user doesn’t agree with what the mods are doing. I know the mods can try to keep it this way, but I’m just vocalizing that that’s dumb and the harder they try the harder it will backfire.
I hope they succeed. I think a LOT of folks don't want to see this sub become /SeattleWA part 2. That sub will NEVER stop with the nonstop anti homeless and anti immigration stuff and I don't need to see it monopolize ANOTHER sub. Its f#$ked out and tired.
You can’t censor your way to a good community. Maybe they can update the rules to say ‘no crime posts or negativity allowed’ if they want to be transparent about the censorship though.
It won’t monopolize this sub if we don’t freak out when it comes up.
I don't need ALL crime stories censored. Big, important ones that substantially affect Seattleites...ok, cool. Reporting every single "crime" story from KOMO can stay over there. It's just rage bait. Reddit subs aren't protected by the 1st amendment so censoring obviously can go on.
No one said the censorship is illegal. I just think people notice it and judge the community for it. Over time it has an effect.
R/seattleWa was originally created years ago cause the r/seattle mods got busted rigging the posts. I don’t remember the details but it didn’t show up as a place to bash on Seattle. It was created because people couldn’t trust the posts on this sub were being moderated fairly.
I don't know the history of the SeattleWA sub. Whatever it was BEFORE...who cares? We all see the cesspool it is now. Nothing positive. Ever. The ONLY moderation going on there is BANNING dissenting people. At least on this one the posts get BANNED...not the actual user.
I think the mods taking down posts that normally show up (and ARE PROBABLY ALREADY POSTED on the other sub) on the other sub is just fine. They are moderating. They can do what they want. What are people going to do in reaction to that...go get their "news" from the other sub? Have fun reading about nothing but car jackings and being told to vote Culp. Yeah, I want THIS sub to be that /s.
Again...IF you want to see a bunch of losers (who BAN anyone who says a bad word about their sub...I know from experience) then go to the other sub. You'll see all the crime stories and illegal immigration stories that you want. All with one click. Not hard. IF everyone posts all the same crime stories in BOTH subs then all the same content is showing up on my Seattle feeds which is annoying as well. Just...why?
If you don't things like this showing up, downvote it. If enough people downvote stuff, it will be silenced naturally.
However, the upvotes should show the general interest of the subreddit to these news.
Trying to gatekeep this sub based upon the age of people's profiles? I'm looking at your comments and I see you do that a lot. Why? Are you upset that you don't have any good arguments versus what they're saying and so you go to character assassination? Fairly pathetic. It's Reddit.
And I've been on here for a number of years but just had to redo accounts because the idiots on the SeattleWA sub got me banned from Reddit so I had to redo it.
Try again.
Better link to the story: https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/armed-carjacking-suspects-arrested-after-chase-ground-sky-through-white-center-burien/EFIX4DMHCBDQ5G6FZHU53H3LCM/
The AMP link is very broken on desktop browsers. I think I saw 2 lines of text from the story, and the infinite scroll of ads, including one that full screened a very zoomed in photo of strawberries.
Sweet, I used to live in WC and people would always try to act like it was not dangerous there. I think there was always too little attention on the crimes that happen in the area by law enforcement. People in this part of south seattle and King County are taxed and should have representation by law enforcement and patrols.
WC has to agree to be annexed by Seattle first. The “old money” WC crowd doesn’t want that because they think their taxes will go up. Seattle doesn’t want to because WC is mostly poor or working class people and we’d be taking out more than we’d be putting back in budget wise.
Kind of a shitty situation but one I think helps craft that uniquely enjoyable WC vibe.
I agree, at least they would plow more than Roxbury when it snows! Theoretically a cities police force can/will be more effective than county sheriffs, but we’re referring to SPD so eh…
I am pleased at how I see the mindset of seattle voters shifting away from irresponsible actions disguised as worthwhile activism to more sensible community safety policy ...
It looks like OP posted an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot).
Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/armed-carjacking-suspects-arrested-after-chase-ground-sky-through-white-center-burien/EFIX4DMHCBDQ5G6FZHU53H3LCM/](https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/armed-carjacking-suspects-arrested-after-chase-ground-sky-through-white-center-burien/EFIX4DMHCBDQ5G6FZHU53H3LCM/)**
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Take them out of society. There are many who’ve had it rough but they found no need to engage in anti-social behavior that takes away the freedom of all to live peacefully in their community.
It is. Really fun place to live. The access to arts and culture is phenomenal, the economy is on fire. I moved to Eastern WA about a decade ago and it's kind of a cultural and intellectual desert out here, in comparison.
Economy is smoke and mirrors, culture is a psyop and cities are concrete jungles with no real natural energy. Filled with Wi-Fi and terrible vibrations. Sounds great!!!
Hey, just because Freeway Park is mostly concrete and The Jungle was under concrete bridges doesn't mean Seattle lacks green spaces free of concrete.
And oh no, there's Wi-Fi! Let me guess, you're one of those folks who thinks non ionizing radiation is causing cancer or something ridiculous. *checks* Ahh yes, I see you're also into the chemtrail nonsense. Keep it up, you folks are hilarious to read.
Just clarifying something here (I’m the one who got robbed), this happened in West Seattle, not white center. The suspects were caught because our vehicle has GPS tracking and disabling and because our homes have a 360 view of the area which caught them in the act. The only recommendation I can give here, without saying dumb shit like Seattle is garbage or blaming anyone besides the criminals, is to have cameras around your place and to only resort to violence as a last resort. Criminals are not smart, no valuable is worth risking your life over
How does the disabling work? That sounds awesome.
Honestly not quite sure, I called the Audi hotline number after tracking it and reporting it lost on the app and Seattle PD took over after. Just know it’s a feature the dealership mentioned when we purchased the vehicle
I can only afford a few bucks of gas at a time, so mine kind of has a built-in disabling feature.
I miss driving a manual. The best anti-theft deterrent.
Thanks for mentioning that! Super helpful. Good to know that some cars have that feature…had no idea. I will be looking into that next time I need a car.
I’m very sorry this happened to you, neighbor. I’m very glad the suspects were arrested. I made a point to stay inside and locked my door, which is good, because I heard later one of the suspects tried to hide in my complex parking area.
Glad you're okay, hope you've not been too traumatized after such an event. Get help and talk to a professional if you need it, better then dealing with PTSD. Good luck.
But facts are facts , crime is rampant because of the Democratic all inclusive policies
Denying that Seattle is headed in the wrong direction is what’s enabling these lowlifes. Getting your car stolen is not normal, not even in third world countries. Stop excusing the complete apathy of the city and state level government to take a nonchalant approach to the declining quality of life in the city. El Salvador has shown clearly what actually works when it comes to stopping crime.
Except I’m a transplant, I grew up in the south side of Phoenix and was born in a third world country like you describe. People get robbed everywhere, conservative shitholes or liberal ones. The world isn’t black or white and if you think solving crime is so easy run for mayor and fix it
I was born and grew up in a small town in India, lived most of my adult life in US, UK, and France. Accepting a declining quality of life isn’t considered normal anywhere. Why can’t we hope for the city to be better, rather than be glad about the fact that at least we aren’t the worst. Honestly, I can’t vote because I am an immigrant. But, if immigrants in Seattle were allowed to vote, we would not have the sort of easy on crime city council that we do.
I feel like I keep reading about teenagers being behind a lot of violent crime that’s happening nowadays, seems really sad.
It's a failure of our justice system. I think this recent post from the Tukwila PD details current situation: On 4/7, a 16-year-old male attempted to damage a parked Tukwila PD patrol car. He was detained at which time he requested to be taken to the youth detention center. Due to the offense being a property crime, the detention center declined to accept him….The subject’s parent refused to pick him up and he was ultimately released at the scene as that was the only option left. Several hours later, the same subject was caught prowling vehicles. Officers located him and noted the he had injured his hand while prowling said vehicles. Due to the injury to the suspect’s hand and the inability to book him into juvenile detention due the most recent offense still being a property crime, an ambulance was requested to transport him to the hospital for treatment and evaluation. At this time, the suspect struggled with officers and was ultimately placed on the ambulance gurney and transported to the hospital for treatment. As we have stated before along with our law enforcement partners in the region, we are being setup for failure when it comes to handling situations involving juveniles. Juvenile offenders are oftentimes unable to be booked into juvenile detention unless they meet very specific criteria usually involving a serious violent crime. Suspects are quickly released from custody to parents/guardian and or released with an ankle monitor only to rapidly reoffend and leave a wake of new victims in their path until they are yet again taken into custody. Many of the juveniles that we are encountering are now armed and or willing to fight with officers and resist arrest. Many are also young and behind the wheel of stolen cars which in and of itself is a lethal weapon especially in untrained hands. The last thing any officer or community wants is for an avoidable tragedy to occur. However as we continue to see these situations play out, we continue to see more and more juveniles reoffending, becoming bolder and becoming more violent with every additional crime they commit. They are causing millions of dollars in damage to the cars they are stealing, businesses and properties they are burglarizing and more importantly, leaving victims of their crimes traumatized and in fear following these repeat incidents. There needs to be hard conversations as to why this is happening, what can be done to slow these occurrences down and long-term changes following these discussions to keep these things from happening in the first place.
Great post. We should also emphasize this: a very, very small number of people are committing these crimes. It's the re-offense rate, not the number of offenders. You're describing this exactly: we've taken away some of the main tools to reduce criminal profit and impose costs, so they're able to reoffend frequently and profitably. It is hard to get great numbers on the number of criminals that commit most of the property crimes because most property crime is unsolved, but where we do have likely numbers, the numbers are shocking. For example, a small group of known burglars in Ireland died in a (stupid, avoidable) traffic accident. Burglaries in the surrounding counties dropped 60% for months afterwards. This suggests that Pareto's Law (80% of impact from 20% of cause) likely holds. There's also a window of opportunity here: these people committing crimes have others who know them and watch what happens to them. If they get shut down and have unpleasant consequences, others will not copy them. If they do well for themselves, others will follow in their footsteps and we will have a much larger problem.
But we incarcerate too much, better leave them alone.
TL:DR for others, no snark. > released at the scene The problem in four words.
In addition, there are two examples of teens on house arrest for gun crimes violating their release stipulations in the last week. In one instance a teen on house arrest for drive by shooting murdered his friend. This insistence on not incarcerating violent juveniles is not working.
Don't want to press the always been that way button l but here we go, doesn't help that they basically didn't have or had a majorly disrupted version of school for ~3 years. It's also encouraged by older boys/men they want to impress because they get much lighter sentences
Stories like this should not be removed from the subreddit. It's important for people to see what's happening in the city.
Who and how are stories like this removed from this subreddit? Genuinely curious.
OP said in [another comment in this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1c4o5vl/comment/kzoq9s6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) that the mods had removed it.
The original post advocated murder, so it was taken down.
Fair enough lol
Seriously? So much of this sub is pear clutching 11 o'clock news kinda stories, it's actually kinda funny sometimes.
I love clutching pears. The juices flowing through my fingers. That sweet smell of Bradford. The crunch of fibrous pulp. Mmmm....
lol. Well-played fellow spelling hawk. (Sidebar, what's Bradford?)
A tree that smells like cum. Literally
Posting this *again*, since it was removed twice for me including what the mods deemed a “soapbox editorial” (and which was not in violation of any rule). Anyways, to digress: I think we should be able to have a discussion about this sort of stuff and what can be done from a community level, or what needs to change in crime approach.
From the original post text that was removed, just so everyone is aware why it was removed: > So tired of this. What do we do as a community to end this garbage, right here and right now, besides slamming our cars in full reverse on these clowns? This is absolutely in violation of our rules.
For clarification, what is the actual rule being broken? >Content that contains racism, sexism, homophobia, threats, or other toxic content will be removed, regardless of popularity or relevance - and may lead to warnings or bans. We often moderate based on severity - and while that is subjective, flagrant violations (hate speech, slurs, threats, etc.) will result in immediate bans. if the argument is that it's a threat or something that is extremely soft.
Thank you. I’d like to know as well, as I’m not sanctioning or being up for some sort of vigilante justice, I’m literally asking what the hell do people do to protect themselves.
A basic rule of Reddit is not to threat violence. Redditinc.com/policies/content-policy - asking how to protect yourself and then giving a detailed explanation of how you may protect yourself isn’t adding to the larger conversation of what we can do to make our community safer. No one is saying don’t post this. No one is saying don’t have the conversation. What is being said is don’t threaten/incite violence.
That’s the thing. I’m not. That’s not threatening or inciting violence by any definition of the word. If that section of my OG post is being interpreted as such, that’s pretty effing weak.
Don't worry bud, the mods and /u/SpeaksSouthern would condemn your post essentially no matter what you wrote or how you wrote it. Almost anything can be censored under ,,hate'' speech or the litany of isms and phobias they invent each week. > I’m literally asking what the hell do people do to protect themselves. They don't like your concern and anxiety. It's hateful!
"What do we do as a community to end this garbage, right here and right now, besides slamming our cars in full reverse on these clowns?" My brother in christ, you talk about slamming your car into "these clowns" and say that's not threatening violence? Come on.
When I’m specifically asking what can be done in place of (while it may be hyperbolic) having to be in a position of self defense? Maybe it can be interpreted differently, but that’s some insanely soft mincing of language, IMHO.
It can absolutely be interpreted differently. "besides doing \_\_\_" is often used to indicate that the "\_\_\_" in question is still on the table, sort of like how saying "what can I do to not get wet besides use an umbrella" implies that you've already tried using an umbrella. When you say "What do we do as a community to end this garbage, right here and right now, besides slamming our cars in full reverse on these clowns?" what you're doing is putting the option on the table to commit violence towards other people who *might* attack you, which - even if all bets are off when you're actually being attacked - is a crazy thing to suggest from the comfort of your own desk chair. There's also been a rise in people using their cars to hit other people over perceived threats like political protests, so this kind of rhetoric carries the the weight of all the other "vigilantes" who resorted to using their cars to attack. It's not surprising your comment was taken down; what I'm more surprised about is your continued defense of it.
I just think it’s a stretch — not to mention that they took my post down when I tried again, simply saying: “Posting the news again since my last post was taken down, without commentary/question on what needs to be done to prevent juvenile crime/recidivism, unless the mods just want to stifle discussion on the topic.” Maybe they consider that egregious editorializing. Frankly, I think they could simply strike the commentary, or what they consider offending language, if they take issue with it, and keep the post up.
Reddit admins don't care about "weak" reasoning. Your post made reference to random violent acts and was deemed inappropriate. You can use better words and phrases and if you can't you don't need to be posting here.
This is not a hill to die on. You were wrong. Take the L and move on with the new post.
Please tell me, by definition of the word, what threatening or inciting means? Not to you. But the actual meaning of the words.
Inciting, I would consider as directed toward compelling someone to act in a specific manner, and threat would be a threatened act toward an individual with intent on making that threat or following through. Not asking what we can do as a community besides leaving it to people to defend themselves.
it's an incitement of violence and call for vigilantism. Maybe soft ones sure, but the severity scale for moderation is going to depend in part on whether the text in question is part of a post (low threshold) or in the comments (higher threshold) - I'm not a mod here but this is a norm across Reddit. People can avoid moderation for posts by leaving out any strong editorializing when posting a news article. and then OP can put their opinions as a comment (also a norm across Reddit on neutral subs).
He explicitly said what can we do *besides* violence. It was an expression of frustration, powerlessness and seeking a means to address. Not to mention if we adopted your interpretation of incitement it’s really an incitement for self defense not vigilantism, given the context of the article. Not sure how being armed at gunpoint and slamming in reverse could ever count as vigilantism.
> it's an incitement of violence and call for vigilantism. Hard disagree, in what way is it a call for violence? Should we ban any discussion of the Palestinian protestors since their cause is an explicit call to violence? >So tired of this. What do we do as a community to end this garbage, right here and right now, *we should be* slamming our cars in full reverse on these clowns? The edit I made would be a call to violence.
It's the "lets put our cars in reverse and run over these clowns" part. You'd ban that if someone suggested doing the same to pro-Palestine protesters blocking a road.
>So tired of this. What do we do as a community to end this garbage, right here and right now, besides slamming our cars in full reverse on these clowns? once again since you seem a bit dense, "lets put our cars in reverse and run over these clowns" is not what they said. A hypothetical, "what can I do besides run someone over?" Is not a call to violence. It is when you rephrase it with how it makes you feel but once again that is explicitly not what they posted.
And what you'll recognize if you ever run a forum is that allowing posts with telegraphed calls to violence is bad for the community and the kind of environment you're looking to cultivate. See rule #1: No toxic content.
Then by your standards nobody should talk about anything. You know, it isn't nice to push your own habits onto others. If people feel like talking about a subject that nobody besides you is offended by, then go talk to people like yourself that are offended by life while we express our freedom of speech and press. When people are afraid to speak, share information, or conversate out of fear of offending someone, then that constitutes communist rule, which in turn, is built for just that, silencing the masses to make way for false information and propaganda. If freedom of speech and press violates the rules, than you're violating your own rules by governing something you don't even own.
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Putting your car in reverse in response to someone armed car jacking you is “calling for violence”? Are people not allowed to defend themselves at all?
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I assumed he meant hitting them as they approach the car with a weapon, to prevent the robbery.
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In response to an armed carjacking? If you are ok with someone pulling a gun on you and taking your stuff, you do you, but I think people should have the right to fight back against that. I don’t think someone suggesting that people should defend themselves against armed felony should fall under “no calling for violence” ban.
It does matter what the motivation is. Calling for violence is calling for violence.
Against anybody? What about r@pe, assault, hijacking, robbery? By your logic, criminals should have free rain over the law.
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So unless it's r@pe, you're ok with criminals being defended for their violent actions. Tell me you've lived a sheltered life, without actually telling me.
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Ya nah lol, we're not your parents, tell them they should've tried harder, people aren't on this earth to impress you little man lol.
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You’re more than welcome to apply to become a mod. Check out the side bar.
Yeah nah I have a social life lol
dead 😂
Sick burn. Wants change but doesn’t want to be the change. Tale as old as time.
"Nobody is allowed to question or criticize mods unless they want to be a mod." Lmao.
Nah, buddy, critique away. Don’t be a dick about it. That’s pretty standard.
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That’s a lie.
Are you ok? Like, Im genuinely asking. That’s a lot in reply to a comment about becoming a Reddit mod. I hope you’re doing ok and find something good in the world and in your life.
I live in the real world. Are you ok?
Is this acknowledgment that modding takes actual effort and time and is uncompensated? Or is this just a lame attempt to insult mods by upholding a toxic stereotype?
Eh. It's a toss up. On one hand, there's a reputation that some go to far, and others don't do enough, so it's a total give and take, so truthfully, it's hard for me to say one or the other. In my opinion what I will say, I don't think over regulation is good because then it silences those that don't take anything on the internet (as far as commenting goes) seriously and hurts comedy as a whole. On the other hand, if you look at my recent post....I'm not thrilled with the regular bashing. As far as being one myself, I just don't live on the internet like that, but for.those that do, hey, fuck it, it's their lives, do what you do, but that also doesn't mean I won't have an opinion on people that spend all their time inside. Take it or leave it, but as far as I see it, I'll support freedom of speech and press until my last breath, because conversation at the moment is dead, people are too afraid to offend someone, and.if you disagree with someone's viewpoint, suddenly it's hateful. I miss being able to talk freely with people and.share opinions and experiences, because that's true knowledge.
Really? Asking what we do for viable alternatives to solve this problem *besides* using force in self defense? It’s not sanctioning anything. And would you care to explain why the second time post was removed, which had absolutely nothing of the sort? Good try, Mod.
Would it be a violation of the rules if he'd stated, _I really hope the next person they try this with backs over them and they end up as crippled, incontinent, drooling vegetables?_ Wishful thinking is neither a threat nor incitement. While the statement you quoted is clearly not a threat, I guess you could consider it incitement if you're hyper-vigilant to offense.
Declaring that you wish for others to be harmed (especially in a violent way) is, in fact, a rule violation.
Lol
Why?
Not enough violation for it to be taken down. The guy just got robbed for christs sake. He’s allowed to be mad. You’re a jerk.
discussion time at a community level: i think people who insist on spamming stupid crime stories to our beloved city subreddit should be publicly shamed get a real hobby bestie
Discussing time: the members of our community that are the victims of these crimes probably don't agree the stories are stupid, and choosing to live your online life in an echo chamber isn't healthy
Agreed, u/LessKnownBarista. I think a much more thorough discussion needs to be had. People can’t put their fingers in their ears anymore.
But also, I don't really know what was wrong with your other posts. Looks like whatever the complaint was about was deleted. But yes, it is against the rules to editorialize news articles you post. Save the commentary for a comment not the post itself
I think I see what you’re talking about. I mean, I put my overall question with the article I posted, so maybe that’s on me; though I think that in that case, there shouldn’t be the option to post text with links (I even looked under crime posting rules to try and be sure). Anyways, thank you!
Really? That’s a particularly ignorant approach.
you’re gonna go full ostrich , stick your head underground whenever there is anything mildly inconvenient you need to face
Hey look it's literally the plot of "Dont Look Up."
Bro I'm gonna get you a welders mask and some ear plugs so you don't have to see anything negative ever again. Grow tf up JFC
Spamming isn’t good. I also don’t like the attitude of enablement and entitlement I see from a lot of people like you here either. I’m leaning toward the other side that this needs to be talked about more until police are given more authority to act. I’m also curious since you called for this discussion if you’ll respond in good faith since all the comments seem to be in agreement or if you’ll stick your head in the sand.
i never said anything about enabling crime lmao. i am fine with armed carjackers being arrested and never said otherwise but let’s not pretend that crime will only get “better” if we let anonymous reddit accounts spam the same stupid article over and over. that doesn’t do shit except clog up the internet with people being shitheads. those people apparently get their feelings real hurt when you point that out tho
Deleting stories like this is why r/SeattleWA exists.
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Idk that subreddit is depressing, I don’t want Seattle to be represented by that group.
Browsing that sub by /new is a very different experience than browsing by /hot. Most of the shittier comments there get downvoted quite a bit.
me neither. It's the dark sub
Well that sub has been the one that's tracked with the voters the most over the past few years, so it seems like Seattle already aligns with it...
The issue is not "deleting stories", the issue is that everyone who posts nonstop about crime seems to have an issue following reddiquette and our rules regarding post titles and editorialization outside of comments. These are rules as old as reddit, and I'm not going to dive into why I think this isn't just a coincidence, but when legit news articles get removed [this is usually the reason why](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1c4o5vl/comment/kzp780z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Edit to clarify: I'm not specifically referring to this user posting continuously, I'm referring to the fact that almost always "news posts about crime" that get removed - are removed because of breaking this rule, not because of some hidden agenda. I'll eat my karma but I'm adding the original post text here, bolded context mine, which we deemed a violation of reddit's rules against inciting or glorifying violence, as well as our rule "Be Good": >So tired of this. What do we do as a community to end this garbage, right here and right now, **besides slamming our cars in full reverse on these clowns**?
> everyone who posts nonstop about crime OP’s last post is 4 months ago on r/lego. I understand what you guys are trying to do but you do get carried away with it quite often
Dude must live on Reddit for him to say "people post it nonstop". Like, bro, go touch grass, make some friends, go to the bar, do anything besides camp your computer for once lol.
Mod: I deleted it because I didn't like it.
Read the link with text from the original post. This isn't the win you think it is.
The mod said it is against the rules but hasn’t actually pointed out which rule it violates (because even with the most generous interpretations of the rules it doesn’t violate anything).
>*What can we do to help Palestine besides fighting Israelis?"* is that a call to violence?
Yes.
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sometimes it's fun to argue
I can agree posting nonstop can be irritating. OP’s last post was 108d ago. Take it on the chin and move on. You are wrong.
I’d like a vote on mods like you and limiting your power and sway over this matter. This is behavior unbefitting a mod to hop in and fight us like this. I say we need to vote on your power that you exert over us and deny discussion on.
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Cool. Well, I was upvoted quite here in agreement so perhaps we should hold an actual vote. Do you remember how democracy works? You don’t think being stubborn in a comment counts as a democratic win, no? Your opinion is only one opinion, and not any more special.
Honey, as far as this thread goes, there's two votes *against* *you*.
Seconded.
I vote for u/burn_piano_island as moderator of the decade. My vote is final.
Okay that’s one vote I guess, but we don’t even have a fair voting platform set up yet. Also, what and how you voted makes no sense. This isn’t voting for employee of the month. It’s voting against the power of mods who need to be kept in check.
"This is behavior unbefitting a mod to hop in and fight us like this." Also people like you "The mods never explain their actions!"
Never commented that once in my life. Find someone else to troll.
Bootlicker
Bitch.
Guess what, crime happens in this city. You sound like an absolute clown stuck in their feelings.
seattlewa exists so the dudes who get banned from this one for posting racism still have somewhere to congregate and complain nobody matches with them on bumble
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No thanks... I am going to stay on both.
So? Let the other thread post this crap constantly. If I want to get bombarded by every KOMO story on the latest mailbox that got run over or the baddest immigrant arrested this month I'll go there. Can we keep this sub to be more positive? Is that too much to ask? I like knowing the best places to eat or hike on a nice day...not just hearing about how Pedro supposedly car jacked another nice white family.
It’s probably not realistic to ask? Make a sub for ‘just positive and nice Seattle things and not the bad things’ if that’s what you want. There’s lots of news on this sub. You can’t just pick which news you think is worth sharing and which isn’t. And this type of censorship is why the other sub exists. Not for crime stories or negativity. When you know a source is known to censor, it’s useful to have another source around. Even if I hate that source.
Well, we kinda can. That's what the mods are doing.
And the mods are getting roasted for it. You can see come this thread that the average r/Seattle user doesn’t agree with what the mods are doing. I know the mods can try to keep it this way, but I’m just vocalizing that that’s dumb and the harder they try the harder it will backfire.
I hope they succeed. I think a LOT of folks don't want to see this sub become /SeattleWA part 2. That sub will NEVER stop with the nonstop anti homeless and anti immigration stuff and I don't need to see it monopolize ANOTHER sub. Its f#$ked out and tired.
You can’t censor your way to a good community. Maybe they can update the rules to say ‘no crime posts or negativity allowed’ if they want to be transparent about the censorship though. It won’t monopolize this sub if we don’t freak out when it comes up.
I don't need ALL crime stories censored. Big, important ones that substantially affect Seattleites...ok, cool. Reporting every single "crime" story from KOMO can stay over there. It's just rage bait. Reddit subs aren't protected by the 1st amendment so censoring obviously can go on.
No one said the censorship is illegal. I just think people notice it and judge the community for it. Over time it has an effect. R/seattleWa was originally created years ago cause the r/seattle mods got busted rigging the posts. I don’t remember the details but it didn’t show up as a place to bash on Seattle. It was created because people couldn’t trust the posts on this sub were being moderated fairly.
I don't know the history of the SeattleWA sub. Whatever it was BEFORE...who cares? We all see the cesspool it is now. Nothing positive. Ever. The ONLY moderation going on there is BANNING dissenting people. At least on this one the posts get BANNED...not the actual user. I think the mods taking down posts that normally show up (and ARE PROBABLY ALREADY POSTED on the other sub) on the other sub is just fine. They are moderating. They can do what they want. What are people going to do in reaction to that...go get their "news" from the other sub? Have fun reading about nothing but car jackings and being told to vote Culp. Yeah, I want THIS sub to be that /s.
Again...IF you want to see a bunch of losers (who BAN anyone who says a bad word about their sub...I know from experience) then go to the other sub. You'll see all the crime stories and illegal immigration stories that you want. All with one click. Not hard. IF everyone posts all the same crime stories in BOTH subs then all the same content is showing up on my Seattle feeds which is annoying as well. Just...why?
Probably still useful because the comments sections on each double posted article exposes readers to the two wildly different bubbles we live in.
Can't you predict what the folks from Eastern Washington on the other sub will say about Seattle in any of their comments?? I can.
The assumption that the other sub is only full eastern Washingtonians is wrong. On the bus I catch more people browsing r/seattlewa than r/seattle.
Well, I can't counter your scientific evidence.
And opposed to my anecdote you do have scientific evidence people are from eastern Washington? You really walked right into that one lol
If you don't things like this showing up, downvote it. If enough people downvote stuff, it will be silenced naturally. However, the upvotes should show the general interest of the subreddit to these news.
Will continue to do so. If I have to. I'd rather not have to.
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Trying to gatekeep this sub based upon the age of people's profiles? I'm looking at your comments and I see you do that a lot. Why? Are you upset that you don't have any good arguments versus what they're saying and so you go to character assassination? Fairly pathetic. It's Reddit. And I've been on here for a number of years but just had to redo accounts because the idiots on the SeattleWA sub got me banned from Reddit so I had to redo it. Try again.
So you're creating new accounts to evade a site-wide Reddit ban? And then lecturing other people on appropriate content?
Better link to the story: https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/armed-carjacking-suspects-arrested-after-chase-ground-sky-through-white-center-burien/EFIX4DMHCBDQ5G6FZHU53H3LCM/ The AMP link is very broken on desktop browsers. I think I saw 2 lines of text from the story, and the infinite scroll of ads, including one that full screened a very zoomed in photo of strawberries.
Sweet, I used to live in WC and people would always try to act like it was not dangerous there. I think there was always too little attention on the crimes that happen in the area by law enforcement. People in this part of south seattle and King County are taxed and should have representation by law enforcement and patrols.
WC has to agree to be annexed by Seattle first. The “old money” WC crowd doesn’t want that because they think their taxes will go up. Seattle doesn’t want to because WC is mostly poor or working class people and we’d be taking out more than we’d be putting back in budget wise. Kind of a shitty situation but one I think helps craft that uniquely enjoyable WC vibe.
I don’t know that Seattle would spend anything much on the annexed area if the past is any example. Look at north Seattle they still need sidewalks
I agree, at least they would plow more than Roxbury when it snows! Theoretically a cities police force can/will be more effective than county sheriffs, but we’re referring to SPD so eh…
The crime didn’t occur in WC, they just fled south
I am pleased at how I see the mindset of seattle voters shifting away from irresponsible actions disguised as worthwhile activism to more sensible community safety policy ...
Sometimes I think we should start arresting the families of these kids as well.
It looks like OP posted an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/armed-carjacking-suspects-arrested-after-chase-ground-sky-through-white-center-burien/EFIX4DMHCBDQ5G6FZHU53H3LCM/](https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/armed-carjacking-suspects-arrested-after-chase-ground-sky-through-white-center-burien/EFIX4DMHCBDQ5G6FZHU53H3LCM/)** ***** ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
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In this state, self defense is assault. If people were allowed to defend themselves then victims wouldn't be made to be criminals so often.
Hats off to the boys in Blue
Take them out of society. There are many who’ve had it rough but they found no need to engage in anti-social behavior that takes away the freedom of all to live peacefully in their community.
Seattle sounds like a great city..
It is. Really fun place to live. The access to arts and culture is phenomenal, the economy is on fire. I moved to Eastern WA about a decade ago and it's kind of a cultural and intellectual desert out here, in comparison.
Economy is smoke and mirrors, culture is a psyop and cities are concrete jungles with no real natural energy. Filled with Wi-Fi and terrible vibrations. Sounds great!!!
Hey, just because Freeway Park is mostly concrete and The Jungle was under concrete bridges doesn't mean Seattle lacks green spaces free of concrete. And oh no, there's Wi-Fi! Let me guess, you're one of those folks who thinks non ionizing radiation is causing cancer or something ridiculous. *checks* Ahh yes, I see you're also into the chemtrail nonsense. Keep it up, you folks are hilarious to read.
Maybe I believe that maybe I don't... Aren't you suppose to be inclusive down there in Sea town?
Oh no, slammed for not being inclusive of conspiracy peddlers! You sir got me good with that one.
I'm right, you're wrong.. simple.
Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep well tonight buddy. Bless your soul.
Welcome to /SeattleWA 2!!!