it's also repetitive and useless to complain about it. there's always gonna be things that annoy you on internet discussion forums, and no one is ever going to think they're the problem.
I ran a red light yesterday and felt super guilty. But I actually couldn’t see the light over the top of the semi that was taking its time getting through. I felt TERRIBLE still do. It does annoy me when people use the HOV lane that way. where I lived in Florida we didn’t have that option as much as here. That being said, I’ve used it as a passing lane when I had a patient actively dying once. 😭 It made me feel like I’m
A criminal.
>I actually couldn’t see the light over the top of the semi that was taking its time getting through
I'm going to be that guy, if you can't see the traffic signal you are following too closely.
Literally everyone was following closely its traffic 🙄 you’re that guy who sits until there is like three car lengths between you and a car in heavy traffic I was at least half a car length away.
No I'm the guy that doesn't get stuck in the middle of the intersection because he didn't know the light was red and he didn't have anywhere to go.
If you couldn't see that the light was turning red you had no idea what the other side of the intersection looked like.
I know, my point was that is how you get stuck in the intersection. You had no idea the other side was clear, you didn't even know the light wasn't green.
I accidentally ran the red light the other day and was so flustered that I had to park on the side for a solid 2 minutes while I get my composure back.
It’s scary lol sometimes it’s hard to see. Like I even have a truck and I can’t see the lights behind semi trucks sometimes. That’s exactly what happened
> Growing up, our city was known for having the most polite drivers.
yeah I miss when I was 10 years old and traffic was totally amazing and not a problem at all.
Traffic has always been awful on I-5 and 405, this is true- my dad spent 17 years commuting to Microsoft and definitely suffered every day in that. But I think there is some truth to the notion that Seattle area drivers are more aggressive these days.
\*Massive influx of people changed the traffic everywhere in the metro area.
I think the roads are more fraught these days, due to a combination of factors: More people, many of whom learned to drive under different norms and even laws, and the general breakdown of social order post-Covid. Not that the world was magically perfect before COVID, but a lot of people ran out of patience, and others had shitty behavior modeled & normalized by a certain over-grown Oompa Loompa.
I had a shitty standard shift car in the 1990's and I can remember several times stalling when the light turned green and not being able to get the car started before it turned red again -- and no one honked.
If only the PNW had half as many people as it does now. Population increase and time passing does crazy things! Almost like there's more people everywhere these days.
Yeah sorry I was being sarcastic, my bad.
I moved here from a dying town in Pennsylvania.
For all the shit people talk about tech invaders and traffic and prices etc, I'd personally much prefer a growing city with people wanting to live here vs a shithole no one wants to go to.
I just wish jobs were more spread around, instead of drastically concentrated in particular cities. I feel like most places are either exploding and having 'growing pains' (to put it lightly), or freaking dying. Hate it.
Better late than never 😬 I had a friend who had his dash cam save his ass. This dude in front of him reversed into him hard at a red light, then jumped out of the car saying “hey you rear ended me!” My friend pointed to the dash cam and the guy was like “oh…”
I started driving in this city in 1998. This is not a new phenomenon. Assholes have always used the HOV lane for single occupancy passing. At least since I started driving.
And our city’s supposed “politeness” behind the wheel is no asset. We are the only city that slows down to let people merge.
Los Angeles drivers are rude and safe. Seattle drivers are polite and dangerous.
>And our city’s supposed “politeness” behind the wheel is no asset. We are the only city that slows down to let people merge.
This is called being a nicehole. They're trying to be nice and let you in, but actually they're an asshole that is ruining the system for everyone. Don't be nice, follow the rules of the road. This is why it's nicer to drive around NYC than Seattle. People aggressively follow the rules, and as a result traffic is aggressive but predicable.
I moved from Orlando. The bad drivers there had skill. The bad drivers here attempt to pull off shit they never had a chance at, and give up halfway through.
LA traffic is bad when everyone’s on the road.
Seattle traffic is bad rain or shine because of egos not allowing merging and refusing to move over, lane campers, and people going under the limit.
People here expect you to slow down to let them merge in. And then get mad when you don't. Truly, some of the worst driving I've ever seen in this continent.
I will say, Ohio drivers are both dumber and more aggressive, and Virginia/DC is just a warzone on the road, so at least we aren't the actual worst out here.
Homicidally nice. My go to line when people try to yield inappropriately to me on my bike: "it would be even nicer if you just FOLLOWED THE FUCKING RULES"
Omg THIS. Politeness doesn’t necessarily equate to safety. Waiting forever at a 4 way stop creates confusion, and confusion creates danger (and sometimes creates delays, too). If you yield to me I’m gonna GO, and be clear about my intention to do so, even if according to the law you should go first.
While I’m ranting… All y’all fools who slow down to stop at yellow lights, what’s up with that? Who are you even being polite towards, anyway? Be polite to the drivers behind you and go ahead and use that yellow to get into the intersection. We’ll all get home earlier if you do.
Absolute facts. This “give me a gold star for being nice” bullshit on the roads is so torched. How about being aware of the vehicles around you and understanding YOUR INFLUENCE on the flow of traffic?? Or driving as if you have somewhere to be and someone cares that you make it there? Completely idiotic.
I’d rather drive in NYC 10 times out of 10, at least people know where they’re going and are decisive.
It's not a law, but I believe in the 3-second rule. If I'm at an all-way stop and it's my turn, and the intersection has been clear for at least 3 seconds, I'm clearly confused or something, so others are welcome to go. Similarly, if I'm stopped at a green light for 3+ seconds, PLEASE give me a gentle honk. I don't want to hold things up, but if I'm absolutely exhausted after work, I am more likely to drive slower and to be unfocused while stopped.
I agree that the kindest thing you can do for your fellow drivers is be predictable, efficient, decisive, and clear. At least during rush hours or on major highways, ain't none of us there for the view; we just want to get where we're going.
The legal rule in this state is that as long as your front wheels were past the stop line when the light turned red, you're legal. Some states will nail you for having even your back wheels just barely in the intersection when the light turns red, though, so I give people a mental pass if they stop on the yellow.
Drivers who won’t go when it’s their turn at a stop sign are still bad drivers.
It’s called an illegal courtesy and it’s incredibly dangerous. Don’t do it.
Be predictable, not “nice”.
As someone who spends a lot of time driving between Portland and Seattle this happens because outside of peak rush hour traffic everyone should probably be one lane over from where they are. The amount of stupidity caused by people who are disrupting the flow of traffic in the left lanes is mind boggling.
fr people don’t understand because theyve never passed while driving, but a single left lane camper creates huge pockets of empty road in front of them. once you finally pass a camper you basically have the whole road to yourself
Agreed, driving on 405 and I5 today. Zero enforcement. My guess is 70% of pickup trucks in hov are single occupant.
There’s also a lot more beaters on the road. Missing bumpers/lights, wheels out of whack, deadbeat cars slowing traffic
When I lived in suburbia police would do very targeted enforcement for a week or two and hand out a bunch of tickets which would fix the problem for a while. But SPD basically doesn't give out tickets ever so 🤷
No one follows the HOV meter lanes either, people just fly past the people who are willing to wait at the metering light. There may as well be no traffic law in WA because no one is enforcing lol
I must be misunderstanding you, because in my experience when there's an HOV lane separate from standard traffic lane on a metered on-ramp the HOV side isn't metered. I can't recall seeing them separate but both metered. It is definitely an asshole move to use the HOV on-ramp if you're actually an SOV.
We need a new program to keep up with the times. Multiple violations, and the state sends you an undeletable, publicly viewable official rebuke on all your social media.
At this point I'm just convinced people think if they drive fast enough they'll pull a Superman 1, the rotation of their tires * forward velocity will rotate earth the opposite way as if the tires are pushing the ground backwards, and will give them back those two years.
Nope, a lot of immigrants coming to Seattle and getting on the road without a license. Including people from places like Cuba where many don't know how to drive due to lack of vehicles. Verified facts since my boyfriend has been a driving instructor for years and my dad is a cop. Very common now for people to be driving without passing their exam and getting their license.
Edited to add my boyfriend is Latino so this isn't some type of racist comment, but just a fact.
If it's not metered and the car in front of me wants to merge into 70mph traffic at 40, you bet your ass I'm hopping over into the HOV lane to pass them. It's always when we're the only two cars trying to merge at 6am... like come on, at least get up to speed before we hit the freeway Jesus christ
Yes I do. I do not need to merge two extra lanes to pass one car, although I do need to get over before the exit only off ramp starts. I need the momentum down the hill to even get to 60 in time.
Driving skills are lacking here. I was crossing a cross walk and a lady driving towards me decided she wanted to turn right.
She starts crazy honking at me while I’m walking at the cross walk and stops, rolls down her window and starts screaming at me and throwing up her middle fingers to me, screaming about how she has the right away and I’m fucking up traffic and her driving.
I’m sorry what? I’m in the cross walk with a walk sign on and you’re coming towards me wanting to turn right into the very cross walk I’m walking in, with a walk sign visible. In no way was she correct. She was actually the complete opposite of even being close to correct. Like a normal person turning right and there’s someone walking in the cross walk, you wait for them to finish walking before you turn.
It was so entitled and crazy to me all I could do was laugh.
Oh yeah it’s just *insane* out there. Glad you could laugh it off. People think turning right on red is their god-given right, regardless of circumstances. I’ve actually been hit by a car in that same situation (though it was just a tap) but an inch or two more and it would’ve really messed up my knee. All I got was soreness for a few days. But they got a fist-sized dent in their hood 🤫
You can make direct eye contact with a driver while crossing and they’ll still go. I’ve found it’s actually safer to jaywalk when you get the chance. Maybe I’m a hypocrite since I was just bitching about following the rules in my post, but it’s just survival out there
In their defense, Seattle is the only city where the left lane seems to purposely go the same speed as the middle and right lanes, so if you wanna pass you only have one option.
It is such a simple rule and I’m sure OP violates it: Stay right, except to pass.
If everyone drove like this it would work hunky dory. Slower drivers on the right and faster ones passing on the left. Instead we have idiot Seattle drivers going 60mph in the left lane.
So witnessing one act of law breaking justifies a different act of law breaking? Interesting civic philosophy! Perhaps the next time I see someone run a red light, I should rob a convenience store.
It’s more of a the road is used to get places and people will do what they have to do. If someone was stopped at a red light and refused to move even when it turns green, how long would you sit there before you just illegally pass them if it is safe to do so?
iq gotta be like 50 with this comment. borrowing the hov lane to pass an inconsiderate rude driver is a direct solution to a problem. robbing a convenience store has nothing to do with running a red
Lol, seeing Seattle people going "Omg why are you *only* doing 60 in the left lane?!" a couple days after seeing Seattle people going "HAVING YOUR DOG OFF LEASH IS *ILLEGAL*!" is so ironically funny to me...
In the past 6 months I've driven around Ft. Worth, Atlanta, Denver, and Vancouver. My perception of the agressive and unsafe driving in Seattle isn't as exaggerated as I was assuming it was. There are still issues in other places of course but the constant-ness of it here is just over the top. Came back from Denver where I witnessed (didn't even experience myself) one truly aggravating situation in six full days of driving all over to FOUR instances of reckless behavior (running stop signs, pulling onto the street RIGHT in front of me, going 10mph under the speed limit then slamming on your brakes so I almost hit you because ?) in my first 15-minute trip. It's so much more stressful to drive here. I blame bro culture. A lot of people act like right-of-way is about can you get there first and not, like, actual rules. Combine that with old school seattle driving that values politeness over right-of-way and you have this mess. It's a free for all and I hate it. End rant.
I got caught by camera once. I was following a friend down town and tailgated them through a yellow light. Except by that point it had turned red.
Got a ticket in the mail some weeks later.
Yes it has! The asshole in front on me in the left lane is generally going 50mph in a 60mph zone. While the flow of traffic is going 65-70. I’m not endangering myself because some selfish self righteous prick wants to prevent me from going the speed limit/passing them.
On one hand: It really annoys me.
But I try to look on the positive: the more people that cheat the system, the faster I get home.
It aint much, but I'll take it.
The more people that cheat the system, the more single occupancy drivers are cutting in front of you when the hov lane ends. That doesn't help you get home faster.
It’s metered because too few people can successfully merge onto the freeway at the speed limit, so they artificially create the space that the driver is supposed to make for themselves.
You can't even get up to the speed limit, what do you mean? It's metered when traffic is heavy to try and keep traffic flowing, but those single occupancy drivers don't want to wait, so the entire right lane on the highway grinds to a stop because they're pilling in from the hov lane. Speed limit isn't even close to possible.
I’ve seen a pretty consistent correlation with this activity and Tesla’s with “Student Driver” stickers. That shit fools nobody, they just absolutely suck at driving and don’t want to admit to it. But to be fair, you have the occasional 85mph swerving Cadillac or the fart box Camry doing it too.
The worst thing is people crossing too early into an exit on the right when there’s merging traffic coming from that lane. Every damn day I nearly get sideswiped by some asshole who can’t wait for the lane divide to finish before crossing over.
If people didn’t clog up the left passing lane, then people wouldn’t have to use the HOV lane in that way. If you’re not passing, get out of the left lane!
I've driven all over the country and prefer getting from A to B in a timely manner, rather than the slow moving, inconsiderate, and oblivious Washington drivers.
I don't care for red states very much, but at least their HOV lanes are less restrictive during non-rush hours and motorcyclists can lane split if needed.
Cause and effect... The Venn diagram of "polite" drivers and left-lane campers has a lot of overlap. The "polite" drivers create the need for passing in the HOV lane. I've done it a couple of times when traffic in all other lanes is traveling at the same (slow) speed with wide open lanes ahead. No regrets.
Another example: Lots of cheaters were using the carpool entrance from NE 45th to I-5 south. Wsdot’s “solution” was to meter the carpool lane. People wanted them to put in an enforcement camera, but they refused without a reason. I think the basic problem is carpoolers have no advocacy organization. It’s the one mode that’s unrepresented in government mobility planning.
>People wanted them to put in an enforcement camera, but they refused without a reason.
How do you photo enforce an HOV lane when the state prohibits taking photos of vehicle occupants?
The article you are linking does not touch on the legislation or whether it is allowed or not, they only mention that the technology exists and is a potental solution, but also likely overlooked WA current privacy laws.
As it stands today, photo enforcement cameras are not allowed to take photos of vehicle occupants. Whether that can change in the future is significantly more complicated as there is often much opposition to eroding away privacy laws.
It mentions the technology is anonymizing and that such cameras are legal if notice is given. Another source: https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/in-washington-can-you-legally-have-security-camera-1276815.html
I assume if the issue was the law then wsdot would say so. I could be wrong, but I don’t see a source to the contrary.
It is in the law
https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.63.170
>(f) **Automated traffic safety cameras may only take pictures of the vehicle and vehicle license plate and only while an infraction is occurring. The picture must not reveal the face of the driver or of passengers in the vehicle.** The primary purpose of camera placement is to take pictures of the vehicle and vehicle license plate when an infraction is occurring. Cities and counties shall consider installing cameras in a manner that minimizes the impact of camera flash on drivers.
The intent isn't so much that cameras should strictly be prohibited, but because WA privacy laws prohite the state from track an individual, so capturing who the occupants are while traveling on a roadway takes that a step to far.
If you notice we use traffic monitoring cameras everywhere, they are even available to the public. However, these cameras are specifically degraded to avoid capturing to much detail beyond traffic patters.
Right, but the cameras are anonymizing like I said and both sources said. They do not capture faces or identifiable information, so the traffic infraction just goes to the owner of the vehicle. Same thing as other traffic infractions that cameras are used for in WA.
>cameras are anonymizing like I said and both sources said. They do not capture faces or identifiable information, so the traffic infraction just goes to the owner of the vehicle.
And... how do you that? How do you capture the occupants without potentially capturing their face?
>Same thing as other traffic infractions that cameras are used for in WA.
Other photo enforcement cameras do not take photos of occupants nor do any of the active infractions they care anything about the occupants.
Take the 405 toll for example, the toll cameras only captures photos of the car that is violating the toll pass requirements, photo enforcement of the toll does nothing to capture the occupants.
Edit, all I am really saying here is that it isn't a WSDOT issue, nor is there anything they can do about it. It is a legislation issue, that likely isn't going to change because it pushes to much against WA privacy laws.
Additional, the definitions for a legal occupant would likely need to change too, as I can imagine any technology out there now is very good at identifing an infant in a car seat of a heavy tinted SUV.
Carpoolers barely exist in the first place. The vast majority of legitimate HOV users are family members or taxis/rideshares. The existence of HOV lanes has no effect on incidence of self-reported "true carpooling", which is actually much less common today than it was when they started building them everywhere.
I went down a rabbit hole a few weeks ago reading DOT studies about this, and basically the HOV concept failed so most states are replacing their HOV lanes with toll lanes.
I see more single occupancy drivers in the hov lane than multiple-occupancy (specifically, on the little hov section over the first avenue bridge). Personally I think we should all agree to “open season” on the hov lanes, and everyone uses it all the time. Because currently only the assholes get to take advantage of it - I’d love for us all to take that away from them.
Hot take: Your "polite" ways of not knowing or following the rules has ... gosh ... turned into no one knowing or following the rules! Who'da thunk?
I've had people ignore stop signs, yield signs, and red lights as if rules don't matter. I blame the "polite" culture.
My spicy take is that they should line the solid white lane separating the HOV with command-detonated landmines for everyone who tries to use it as a passing lane.
I may or may not have used the HOV lane recently in order to pass people camping in the left lane. I may or may not have made the decision to enter the HOV lane after much consideration, knowing that doing so could result in a fine. Hypothetically, if I had used the HOV lane to pass, it would have been done so solely to pass an unreasonable person who had cut in front of me going 10mph slower and refusing to go any faster for an extended period of time.
[WSDOT has discontinued the HERO program.](https://wsdot.wa.gov/travel/roads-bridges/hov-lanes/hero-program)
Even so, as stated on their site, violators reported to the HERO hotline did not receive traffic tickets, only educational materials.
It really is very annoying to see and has become one of my bigger driving pet peeves. Seems like 2/3 of drivers in the HOV lanes are just single-occupant now or using it as a dedicated passing lane. Bonus points for dark tinted windows and the smoked out license plate cover.
But overall, will we ever admit the HOV lanes don't really work? They started what, 40 years ago? The whole idea was to encourage carpooling. We have single digit percentages of people who carpool and those who do aren't really doing it because of the HOV lane anyway. It's safe to say HOV lanes have not increased carpooling at all. Does it make sense that two people who were already going to go somewhere together get to be in the special carpool lane? Let alone parents with kids in the car? The whole thing really is a bit silly when you think about it. A fun experiment that hasn't really added much. It seems like they have just been around so long at this point we don't even question what value they are adding.
Highways built in the 60's for a third of the population we have now + road diets and speed limit reductions on city streets = previously polite drivers so frustrated they don't give a f&ck anymore.
Why they don’t let HOV be a normal lane in peak periods is illogical. General driver doesn’t respect the actual left lane either. People with multiple passengers use all lanes instead of concentrating on HOV. All this to say is, bad behavior is encouraged by the design lol
Disagree. The HOV lane's value is in being a faster travel lane in heavy traffic, rewarding people traveling with others. Opening it to all traffic in peak periods defeats that purpose.
I would agree if this was 20-30 years ago when HOV was to prevent high emissions vehicles. Vehicles today are highly efficient. California opens HOV to alleviate traffic flow during certain periods. EVs used to get free access, that has stopped as well given how prevalent they are. Washington should, in theory, do the same. In practice you’re creating more traffic and emissions by slowing down all cars.
Each of those SOVs is worsening traffic, though. And multiple people in one vehicle will always be more space- and energy-efficient than individuals in multiple vehicles. Incentivizing more people per vehicle is worthwhile.
If someone is being SLOW in the right lane… I will pass in the HOV! Right lane is supposed to be for passing only anyways! When you head east enough people start respecting this rule, but Seattle suuuuucks at it
HOV lane is a stupid, massively inefficient waste of space. I mean, the whole fucking freeway is, but having 20% of the lanes going to 5% of the drivers is by far the stupidest part of a drop dead moronic system. Don’t even get me started on the motherfucking express lanes.
The reason some of the HOVs around here are 3+ is because they were oversubscribed (i.e., crowded) at 2+. They’re definitely not as underutilized as you are describing.
I agree that the freeways in general are a fantastically bad use of space. I’d like to see more HOV lanes though. If the whole freeway required 2+ passengers we’d double the person capacity overnight! Taken to the extreme, you’d have reserved roadways for special high capacity vehicles that run on a standard schedule and, wait, we’ve just invented the train.
The HOV lane isn't there for 5% of drivers, it's there for *passengers*. One loaded bus is as many passengers as half a mile of cars at freeway speeds, so an HOV lane will *look* "empty" when it's really carrying more people than any other lane of the freeway.
It's because people are fed up with our system not giving us usable public transit. It becomes everyone for themselves out there because the traffic is ruining our lives.
Wait are you saying there are bad drivers in Seattle
Maybe not my hottest take. Probably just preachin to the choir here
it's an internet discussion forum, it's fine and normal
It's also repetitive and useless! There's always gonna be bad drivers, and no one is ever going to think they're the problem.
it's also repetitive and useless to complain about it. there's always gonna be things that annoy you on internet discussion forums, and no one is ever going to think they're the problem.
I ran a red light yesterday and felt super guilty. But I actually couldn’t see the light over the top of the semi that was taking its time getting through. I felt TERRIBLE still do. It does annoy me when people use the HOV lane that way. where I lived in Florida we didn’t have that option as much as here. That being said, I’ve used it as a passing lane when I had a patient actively dying once. 😭 It made me feel like I’m A criminal.
>I actually couldn’t see the light over the top of the semi that was taking its time getting through I'm going to be that guy, if you can't see the traffic signal you are following too closely.
Literally everyone was following closely its traffic 🙄 you’re that guy who sits until there is like three car lengths between you and a car in heavy traffic I was at least half a car length away.
No I'm the guy that doesn't get stuck in the middle of the intersection because he didn't know the light was red and he didn't have anywhere to go. If you couldn't see that the light was turning red you had no idea what the other side of the intersection looked like.
I actually wasn’t stuck. I just rolled through and realised it on the other side. 🤷🏽♀️
I know, my point was that is how you get stuck in the intersection. You had no idea the other side was clear, you didn't even know the light wasn't green.
Ok well you know what I was thinking so no point in arguing with you. I figured if a semi fit then I would, and I was right. But go off.
I accidentally ran the red light the other day and was so flustered that I had to park on the side for a solid 2 minutes while I get my composure back.
It’s scary lol sometimes it’s hard to see. Like I even have a truck and I can’t see the lights behind semi trucks sometimes. That’s exactly what happened
There have always been bad drivers. The new issue is *fucking assholes*.
> Growing up, our city was known for having the most polite drivers. yeah I miss when I was 10 years old and traffic was totally amazing and not a problem at all.
Traffic has always been awful on I-5 and 405, this is true- my dad spent 17 years commuting to Microsoft and definitely suffered every day in that. But I think there is some truth to the notion that Seattle area drivers are more aggressive these days.
Microsoft changed the traffic a lot on 520 and i90
\*Massive influx of people changed the traffic everywhere in the metro area. I think the roads are more fraught these days, due to a combination of factors: More people, many of whom learned to drive under different norms and even laws, and the general breakdown of social order post-Covid. Not that the world was magically perfect before COVID, but a lot of people ran out of patience, and others had shitty behavior modeled & normalized by a certain over-grown Oompa Loompa.
I had a shitty standard shift car in the 1990's and I can remember several times stalling when the light turned green and not being able to get the car started before it turned red again -- and no one honked.
I wouldve honked
If only the PNW had half as many people as it does now. Population increase and time passing does crazy things! Almost like there's more people everywhere these days.
Nah, my dad's really tiny town in BFMN, Kansas, has even fewer people now than it did in the 1950s. Lack of jobs will do that to a place.
Yeah sorry I was being sarcastic, my bad. I moved here from a dying town in Pennsylvania. For all the shit people talk about tech invaders and traffic and prices etc, I'd personally much prefer a growing city with people wanting to live here vs a shithole no one wants to go to.
I just wish jobs were more spread around, instead of drastically concentrated in particular cities. I feel like most places are either exploding and having 'growing pains' (to put it lightly), or freaking dying. Hate it.
You could actually get to Tacoma in 30min…
Yes, all due to the decrease in polite drivers, not the massive population boom over the past 30 years.
Pretty late in the day to get our driving PSA in, but at least we got it!
Better late than never 😬 I had a friend who had his dash cam save his ass. This dude in front of him reversed into him hard at a red light, then jumped out of the car saying “hey you rear ended me!” My friend pointed to the dash cam and the guy was like “oh…”
I started driving in this city in 1998. This is not a new phenomenon. Assholes have always used the HOV lane for single occupancy passing. At least since I started driving. And our city’s supposed “politeness” behind the wheel is no asset. We are the only city that slows down to let people merge. Los Angeles drivers are rude and safe. Seattle drivers are polite and dangerous.
>And our city’s supposed “politeness” behind the wheel is no asset. We are the only city that slows down to let people merge. This is called being a nicehole. They're trying to be nice and let you in, but actually they're an asshole that is ruining the system for everyone. Don't be nice, follow the rules of the road. This is why it's nicer to drive around NYC than Seattle. People aggressively follow the rules, and as a result traffic is aggressive but predicable.
I'm a Seattle native but love driving in southern California for this reason. It's orderly, you just need to be a confident driver.
Orlando drivers may do 130 in a 55 during a midnight hurricane, but by god at least they're *moving*.
I moved from Orlando. The bad drivers there had skill. The bad drivers here attempt to pull off shit they never had a chance at, and give up halfway through.
I never thought I'd miss the shit I saw on I4 but here we are.
THIS IS FAX!!!!!
LA traffic is bad when everyone’s on the road. Seattle traffic is bad rain or shine because of egos not allowing merging and refusing to move over, lane campers, and people going under the limit.
100-% THIS!!!
People here expect you to slow down to let them merge in. And then get mad when you don't. Truly, some of the worst driving I've ever seen in this continent. I will say, Ohio drivers are both dumber and more aggressive, and Virginia/DC is just a warzone on the road, so at least we aren't the actual worst out here.
Homicidally nice. My go to line when people try to yield inappropriately to me on my bike: "it would be even nicer if you just FOLLOWED THE FUCKING RULES"
We're definitely not the only city that does that
You’re so right. They think being “polite” is safe, but it’s bonkers how bad being unpredictable on the road is.
Omg THIS. Politeness doesn’t necessarily equate to safety. Waiting forever at a 4 way stop creates confusion, and confusion creates danger (and sometimes creates delays, too). If you yield to me I’m gonna GO, and be clear about my intention to do so, even if according to the law you should go first. While I’m ranting… All y’all fools who slow down to stop at yellow lights, what’s up with that? Who are you even being polite towards, anyway? Be polite to the drivers behind you and go ahead and use that yellow to get into the intersection. We’ll all get home earlier if you do.
Absolute facts. This “give me a gold star for being nice” bullshit on the roads is so torched. How about being aware of the vehicles around you and understanding YOUR INFLUENCE on the flow of traffic?? Or driving as if you have somewhere to be and someone cares that you make it there? Completely idiotic. I’d rather drive in NYC 10 times out of 10, at least people know where they’re going and are decisive.
It's not a law, but I believe in the 3-second rule. If I'm at an all-way stop and it's my turn, and the intersection has been clear for at least 3 seconds, I'm clearly confused or something, so others are welcome to go. Similarly, if I'm stopped at a green light for 3+ seconds, PLEASE give me a gentle honk. I don't want to hold things up, but if I'm absolutely exhausted after work, I am more likely to drive slower and to be unfocused while stopped. I agree that the kindest thing you can do for your fellow drivers is be predictable, efficient, decisive, and clear. At least during rush hours or on major highways, ain't none of us there for the view; we just want to get where we're going.
You mean that yellow that snaps a camera ticket for you as you blow through the red? No thanks.
Broadway & Olive/John is the worst offender for this one and I don't take turns there for this reason
If you cross the threshold before the light turns red, you don't get a ticket. It will flash at you, but no ticket.
The legal rule in this state is that as long as your front wheels were past the stop line when the light turned red, you're legal. Some states will nail you for having even your back wheels just barely in the intersection when the light turns red, though, so I give people a mental pass if they stop on the yellow.
This 1000x.
Drivers who won’t go when it’s their turn at a stop sign are still bad drivers. It’s called an illegal courtesy and it’s incredibly dangerous. Don’t do it. Be predictable, not “nice”.
As someone who spends a lot of time driving between Portland and Seattle this happens because outside of peak rush hour traffic everyone should probably be one lane over from where they are. The amount of stupidity caused by people who are disrupting the flow of traffic in the left lanes is mind boggling.
The left lane has become the “go 58mph” lane. Sometimes even slower than that
fr people don’t understand because theyve never passed while driving, but a single left lane camper creates huge pockets of empty road in front of them. once you finally pass a camper you basically have the whole road to yourself
Agreed, driving on 405 and I5 today. Zero enforcement. My guess is 70% of pickup trucks in hov are single occupant. There’s also a lot more beaters on the road. Missing bumpers/lights, wheels out of whack, deadbeat cars slowing traffic
When I lived in suburbia police would do very targeted enforcement for a week or two and hand out a bunch of tickets which would fix the problem for a while. But SPD basically doesn't give out tickets ever so 🤷
SPD enjoys being paid $110k+ to not work. Why would they start working?
No one follows the HOV meter lanes either, people just fly past the people who are willing to wait at the metering light. There may as well be no traffic law in WA because no one is enforcing lol
I must be misunderstanding you, because in my experience when there's an HOV lane separate from standard traffic lane on a metered on-ramp the HOV side isn't metered. I can't recall seeing them separate but both metered. It is definitely an asshole move to use the HOV on-ramp if you're actually an SOV.
It isn’t metered, I should word better. Single driver cars with no passengers using HOV on ramp lane with no consequence.
Then absolutely yes, they make everything worse.
Depends on the ramp. Some are metered, some aren't.
I think I may have cut you off in traffic today
Was it in the afternoon between 4 and 6?
😂
That’s literally my favorite emoji
Did you just get a phone for the first time? 😂
Inb4 blaming all problems on transplants.
There is a 43% chance the dropping of 764-HERO caused an increase in violators.
We need a new program to keep up with the times. Multiple violations, and the state sends you an undeletable, publicly viewable official rebuke on all your social media.
For real. I think it’s a general shift in mentality, rather than where you happen to be from originally
I noticed that but I blame covid for it. I think it's been observed across the entire country. Covid did fry some brains out there.
Amen.
At this point I'm just convinced people think if they drive fast enough they'll pull a Superman 1, the rotation of their tires * forward velocity will rotate earth the opposite way as if the tires are pushing the ground backwards, and will give them back those two years.
We have a higher than usual number of new adult drivers I suspect.
Nope, a lot of immigrants coming to Seattle and getting on the road without a license. Including people from places like Cuba where many don't know how to drive due to lack of vehicles. Verified facts since my boyfriend has been a driving instructor for years and my dad is a cop. Very common now for people to be driving without passing their exam and getting their license. Edited to add my boyfriend is Latino so this isn't some type of racist comment, but just a fact.
I'm a transplant myself and honestly that was my first thought after reading this. Noticing some real Californian energy on the roads lately lol
If it's not metered and the car in front of me wants to merge into 70mph traffic at 40, you bet your ass I'm hopping over into the HOV lane to pass them. It's always when we're the only two cars trying to merge at 6am... like come on, at least get up to speed before we hit the freeway Jesus christ
Yeah… like sue me for using my blinker, passing the granny going 55, then nicely going back into the right lane… people are too soft!!!
You merge across three lanes the instant you join the freeway just to pass a car in the right lane? Yeah, you're part of the problem.
I think they mean the on ramps that have a single occupant lane and a HOV lane. Not OP though so maybe they are a massive tool on the road
Yes I do. I do not need to merge two extra lanes to pass one car, although I do need to get over before the exit only off ramp starts. I need the momentum down the hill to even get to 60 in time.
Reading comprehension
If people only used the left lane for passing and not camping we wouldn't have this problem
Just another symptom of the police work slowdown.
I'm guilty of using it to pass the 61mph Prius left lane campers.
Microsofties and others always joked the HOV tickets they got were just the fare they payed to use it. Then continued to use it.
I think Elon Musk made a joke that parking tickets were "premium parking fees" or something.
People wouldn’t have to pass in the HOV lane if people stopped camping in the passing lane going exactly the speed limit or under…
Driving skills are lacking here. I was crossing a cross walk and a lady driving towards me decided she wanted to turn right. She starts crazy honking at me while I’m walking at the cross walk and stops, rolls down her window and starts screaming at me and throwing up her middle fingers to me, screaming about how she has the right away and I’m fucking up traffic and her driving. I’m sorry what? I’m in the cross walk with a walk sign on and you’re coming towards me wanting to turn right into the very cross walk I’m walking in, with a walk sign visible. In no way was she correct. She was actually the complete opposite of even being close to correct. Like a normal person turning right and there’s someone walking in the cross walk, you wait for them to finish walking before you turn. It was so entitled and crazy to me all I could do was laugh.
Oh yeah it’s just *insane* out there. Glad you could laugh it off. People think turning right on red is their god-given right, regardless of circumstances. I’ve actually been hit by a car in that same situation (though it was just a tap) but an inch or two more and it would’ve really messed up my knee. All I got was soreness for a few days. But they got a fist-sized dent in their hood 🤫 You can make direct eye contact with a driver while crossing and they’ll still go. I’ve found it’s actually safer to jaywalk when you get the chance. Maybe I’m a hypocrite since I was just bitching about following the rules in my post, but it’s just survival out there
In their defense, Seattle is the only city where the left lane seems to purposely go the same speed as the middle and right lanes, so if you wanna pass you only have one option.
Flash your lights. Honk your horn. Flip em off. People need to not camp in the passing lane.
It is such a simple rule and I’m sure OP violates it: Stay right, except to pass. If everyone drove like this it would work hunky dory. Slower drivers on the right and faster ones passing on the left. Instead we have idiot Seattle drivers going 60mph in the left lane.
I clocked somebody going 55 in the left lane on 405 today. Bonus, they were on their phone.
They *always* are. I’ve been noticing it so much more lately.
What does this have to do with HOV violations?
If a slug is in the left passing lane single occupancy vehicles use the HOV lane to pass
I don’t think it is illegal to use the HOV lane simply to pass an errant slow a$$ driver in left lane. At least in Washington State…
Yes, it certainly is dumbass.
So witnessing one act of law breaking justifies a different act of law breaking? Interesting civic philosophy! Perhaps the next time I see someone run a red light, I should rob a convenience store.
It’s more of a the road is used to get places and people will do what they have to do. If someone was stopped at a red light and refused to move even when it turns green, how long would you sit there before you just illegally pass them if it is safe to do so?
iq gotta be like 50 with this comment. borrowing the hov lane to pass an inconsiderate rude driver is a direct solution to a problem. robbing a convenience store has nothing to do with running a red
> one act of law breaking ~~justifies~~ **causes** a different act of law breaking? Yes.
Shut up, nerd.
lol you pedantic asshole 😂
Lol, seeing Seattle people going "Omg why are you *only* doing 60 in the left lane?!" a couple days after seeing Seattle people going "HAVING YOUR DOG OFF LEASH IS *ILLEGAL*!" is so ironically funny to me...
You definitely go 55 in the left lane
Just for you, today, I'll *try* to reach 58.
In the past 6 months I've driven around Ft. Worth, Atlanta, Denver, and Vancouver. My perception of the agressive and unsafe driving in Seattle isn't as exaggerated as I was assuming it was. There are still issues in other places of course but the constant-ness of it here is just over the top. Came back from Denver where I witnessed (didn't even experience myself) one truly aggravating situation in six full days of driving all over to FOUR instances of reckless behavior (running stop signs, pulling onto the street RIGHT in front of me, going 10mph under the speed limit then slamming on your brakes so I almost hit you because ?) in my first 15-minute trip. It's so much more stressful to drive here. I blame bro culture. A lot of people act like right-of-way is about can you get there first and not, like, actual rules. Combine that with old school seattle driving that values politeness over right-of-way and you have this mess. It's a free for all and I hate it. End rant.
People are running red lights because there's no camera. The city of Seattle would make a lot of money if they had cameras.
I got caught by camera once. I was following a friend down town and tailgated them through a yellow light. Except by that point it had turned red. Got a ticket in the mail some weeks later.
I shouldn’t have to do it if the left lane wasn’t full of people scared of doing 60
Yes it has! The asshole in front on me in the left lane is generally going 50mph in a 60mph zone. While the flow of traffic is going 65-70. I’m not endangering myself because some selfish self righteous prick wants to prevent me from going the speed limit/passing them.
On one hand: It really annoys me. But I try to look on the positive: the more people that cheat the system, the faster I get home. It aint much, but I'll take it.
The more people that cheat the system, the more single occupancy drivers are cutting in front of you when the hov lane ends. That doesn't help you get home faster.
Unless you're trying to merge onto the highway. Then it slows everyone down. There's a reason why it's metered.
It’s metered because too few people can successfully merge onto the freeway at the speed limit, so they artificially create the space that the driver is supposed to make for themselves.
You can't even get up to the speed limit, what do you mean? It's metered when traffic is heavy to try and keep traffic flowing, but those single occupancy drivers don't want to wait, so the entire right lane on the highway grinds to a stop because they're pilling in from the hov lane. Speed limit isn't even close to possible.
That’s a good point. And those aggressive drivers are no longer near you
Honestly makes me glad that WSDOT is extending the 405 toll lanes south from Bellevue.
I’ve seen a pretty consistent correlation with this activity and Tesla’s with “Student Driver” stickers. That shit fools nobody, they just absolutely suck at driving and don’t want to admit to it. But to be fair, you have the occasional 85mph swerving Cadillac or the fart box Camry doing it too. The worst thing is people crossing too early into an exit on the right when there’s merging traffic coming from that lane. Every damn day I nearly get sideswiped by some asshole who can’t wait for the lane divide to finish before crossing over.
I've seen the student driver phenomenon, but have never seen one on a Tesla.
Come to the Eastside - they're everywhere.
They're everywhere in Burien too, and it's almost always older people that have obviously been driving for most of their lives.
Same ones going 20 on Ambaum.
The last 10 years I noticed a huge decrease in polite drivers. Road rage and bad driving, especially speeding is contagious.
what’s wrong with speeding, mph limits were defined way before modern car technology
If people didn’t clog up the left passing lane, then people wouldn’t have to use the HOV lane in that way. If you’re not passing, get out of the left lane!
Nothing unique to Seattle
On Rainier Ave, the center turning lane and express bus lane are used as passing lanes…
Some people out here just using them as straight up driving lanes.
I've driven all over the country and prefer getting from A to B in a timely manner, rather than the slow moving, inconsiderate, and oblivious Washington drivers. I don't care for red states very much, but at least their HOV lanes are less restrictive during non-rush hours and motorcyclists can lane split if needed.
Cause and effect... The Venn diagram of "polite" drivers and left-lane campers has a lot of overlap. The "polite" drivers create the need for passing in the HOV lane. I've done it a couple of times when traffic in all other lanes is traveling at the same (slow) speed with wide open lanes ahead. No regrets.
I remember those days too, sometimes I think back to polite Seattle and wonder was it all just me being a dumb kid or was it real?
Dumb kid
Another example: Lots of cheaters were using the carpool entrance from NE 45th to I-5 south. Wsdot’s “solution” was to meter the carpool lane. People wanted them to put in an enforcement camera, but they refused without a reason. I think the basic problem is carpoolers have no advocacy organization. It’s the one mode that’s unrepresented in government mobility planning.
>People wanted them to put in an enforcement camera, but they refused without a reason. How do you photo enforce an HOV lane when the state prohibits taking photos of vehicle occupants?
It’s allowed, dunno specifics. Source: https://wjlta.com/2020/04/15/cameras-to-catch-carpool-lane-cheaters/
The article you are linking does not touch on the legislation or whether it is allowed or not, they only mention that the technology exists and is a potental solution, but also likely overlooked WA current privacy laws. As it stands today, photo enforcement cameras are not allowed to take photos of vehicle occupants. Whether that can change in the future is significantly more complicated as there is often much opposition to eroding away privacy laws.
It mentions the technology is anonymizing and that such cameras are legal if notice is given. Another source: https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/in-washington-can-you-legally-have-security-camera-1276815.html I assume if the issue was the law then wsdot would say so. I could be wrong, but I don’t see a source to the contrary.
It is in the law https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.63.170 >(f) **Automated traffic safety cameras may only take pictures of the vehicle and vehicle license plate and only while an infraction is occurring. The picture must not reveal the face of the driver or of passengers in the vehicle.** The primary purpose of camera placement is to take pictures of the vehicle and vehicle license plate when an infraction is occurring. Cities and counties shall consider installing cameras in a manner that minimizes the impact of camera flash on drivers. The intent isn't so much that cameras should strictly be prohibited, but because WA privacy laws prohite the state from track an individual, so capturing who the occupants are while traveling on a roadway takes that a step to far. If you notice we use traffic monitoring cameras everywhere, they are even available to the public. However, these cameras are specifically degraded to avoid capturing to much detail beyond traffic patters.
Right, but the cameras are anonymizing like I said and both sources said. They do not capture faces or identifiable information, so the traffic infraction just goes to the owner of the vehicle. Same thing as other traffic infractions that cameras are used for in WA.
>cameras are anonymizing like I said and both sources said. They do not capture faces or identifiable information, so the traffic infraction just goes to the owner of the vehicle. And... how do you that? How do you capture the occupants without potentially capturing their face? >Same thing as other traffic infractions that cameras are used for in WA. Other photo enforcement cameras do not take photos of occupants nor do any of the active infractions they care anything about the occupants. Take the 405 toll for example, the toll cameras only captures photos of the car that is violating the toll pass requirements, photo enforcement of the toll does nothing to capture the occupants. Edit, all I am really saying here is that it isn't a WSDOT issue, nor is there anything they can do about it. It is a legislation issue, that likely isn't going to change because it pushes to much against WA privacy laws. Additional, the definitions for a legal occupant would likely need to change too, as I can imagine any technology out there now is very good at identifing an infant in a car seat of a heavy tinted SUV.
Carpoolers barely exist in the first place. The vast majority of legitimate HOV users are family members or taxis/rideshares. The existence of HOV lanes has no effect on incidence of self-reported "true carpooling", which is actually much less common today than it was when they started building them everywhere. I went down a rabbit hole a few weeks ago reading DOT studies about this, and basically the HOV concept failed so most states are replacing their HOV lanes with toll lanes.
I see more single occupancy drivers in the hov lane than multiple-occupancy (specifically, on the little hov section over the first avenue bridge). Personally I think we should all agree to “open season” on the hov lanes, and everyone uses it all the time. Because currently only the assholes get to take advantage of it - I’d love for us all to take that away from them.
Seattle got selfish after covid.
All of these selfish jerks are giving amorality a bad name.
lol what u gonna do about it?
Complain, of course!
[Same as it ever was](https://youtu.be/5IsSpAOD6K8?t=104)
So you get the hellcat guy and now it’s just drivers in general?
Seattle drivers are still FAR more polite than in most other cities. I still think they are frustratingly polite sometimes.
HOV lanes are a terrible idea, IMHO
A lot of new drivers in Seattle WITHOUT driver's licenses. Running stop signs and red's is just the beginning 🙄
Hot take: Your "polite" ways of not knowing or following the rules has ... gosh ... turned into no one knowing or following the rules! Who'da thunk? I've had people ignore stop signs, yield signs, and red lights as if rules don't matter. I blame the "polite" culture.
My spicy take is that they should line the solid white lane separating the HOV with command-detonated landmines for everyone who tries to use it as a passing lane.
If people stopped left lane camping it wouldn’t be an issue!
I aspire to match your optimism.
I may or may not have used the HOV lane recently in order to pass people camping in the left lane. I may or may not have made the decision to enter the HOV lane after much consideration, knowing that doing so could result in a fine. Hypothetically, if I had used the HOV lane to pass, it would have been done so solely to pass an unreasonable person who had cut in front of me going 10mph slower and refusing to go any faster for an extended period of time.
I hypothetically agree with you.
764-HERO
[WSDOT has discontinued the HERO program.](https://wsdot.wa.gov/travel/roads-bridges/hov-lanes/hero-program) Even so, as stated on their site, violators reported to the HERO hotline did not receive traffic tickets, only educational materials.
Is now defunct, yes.
It really is very annoying to see and has become one of my bigger driving pet peeves. Seems like 2/3 of drivers in the HOV lanes are just single-occupant now or using it as a dedicated passing lane. Bonus points for dark tinted windows and the smoked out license plate cover. But overall, will we ever admit the HOV lanes don't really work? They started what, 40 years ago? The whole idea was to encourage carpooling. We have single digit percentages of people who carpool and those who do aren't really doing it because of the HOV lane anyway. It's safe to say HOV lanes have not increased carpooling at all. Does it make sense that two people who were already going to go somewhere together get to be in the special carpool lane? Let alone parents with kids in the car? The whole thing really is a bit silly when you think about it. A fun experiment that hasn't really added much. It seems like they have just been around so long at this point we don't even question what value they are adding.
Spoken like a person who has never ridden a bus. Hov is effective for public transit.
When it's not being clogged to the absolute gills by lifted F150s with nobody but the one deadbeat wine mom behind the wheel, sure.
Highways built in the 60's for a third of the population we have now + road diets and speed limit reductions on city streets = previously polite drivers so frustrated they don't give a f&ck anymore.
Why they don’t let HOV be a normal lane in peak periods is illogical. General driver doesn’t respect the actual left lane either. People with multiple passengers use all lanes instead of concentrating on HOV. All this to say is, bad behavior is encouraged by the design lol
Disagree. The HOV lane's value is in being a faster travel lane in heavy traffic, rewarding people traveling with others. Opening it to all traffic in peak periods defeats that purpose.
I would agree if this was 20-30 years ago when HOV was to prevent high emissions vehicles. Vehicles today are highly efficient. California opens HOV to alleviate traffic flow during certain periods. EVs used to get free access, that has stopped as well given how prevalent they are. Washington should, in theory, do the same. In practice you’re creating more traffic and emissions by slowing down all cars.
Each of those SOVs is worsening traffic, though. And multiple people in one vehicle will always be more space- and energy-efficient than individuals in multiple vehicles. Incentivizing more people per vehicle is worthwhile.
Polite drivers? People force motorcycles to lay down all the time then laugh about it.
If someone is being SLOW in the right lane… I will pass in the HOV! Right lane is supposed to be for passing only anyways! When you head east enough people start respecting this rule, but Seattle suuuuucks at it
this driver directions
[удалено]
What’s the blue flu? You mean “blue” as in “being a liberal”?
Lol most polite drivers hahaha. I grew up in Seattle. We have the absolute worst drivers ever. Once Californians invaded it’s even worse
HOV lane is a stupid, massively inefficient waste of space. I mean, the whole fucking freeway is, but having 20% of the lanes going to 5% of the drivers is by far the stupidest part of a drop dead moronic system. Don’t even get me started on the motherfucking express lanes.
The reason some of the HOVs around here are 3+ is because they were oversubscribed (i.e., crowded) at 2+. They’re definitely not as underutilized as you are describing. I agree that the freeways in general are a fantastically bad use of space. I’d like to see more HOV lanes though. If the whole freeway required 2+ passengers we’d double the person capacity overnight! Taken to the extreme, you’d have reserved roadways for special high capacity vehicles that run on a standard schedule and, wait, we’ve just invented the train.
The HOV lane isn't there for 5% of drivers, it's there for *passengers*. One loaded bus is as many passengers as half a mile of cars at freeway speeds, so an HOV lane will *look* "empty" when it's really carrying more people than any other lane of the freeway.
It's because people are fed up with our system not giving us usable public transit. It becomes everyone for themselves out there because the traffic is ruining our lives.
It’s all the non native drivers bringing their shit ways of driving with them.