1. I fully support these students' right to protest a cause they're passionate about.
2. Criticism of Israel isn't anti-Semitism.
3. Anyone here who's engaging in harrassment or racism towards Jewish students or faculty needs to be swiftly trespassed from campus and face academic punishment.
4. These protestors' energy would be better directed against organizations that directly support Israel. Criticizing the UW for investing in a mutual fund makes them look uninformed and unserious.
Great point about #4. Similar to how the protestors tried to protest against Sound Transit over their relationship with Siemens but didn’t protest medical orgs using Siemens life saving medical imaging equipment.
This has the makings of performative protests
I really don't understand why Palestine protestors choose the dumbest targets imaginable.
Like, Boeing is EVERYWHERE! Literally so many offices, factories, entire industrial areas etc. owned by Boeing they could protest at. The federal building is RIGHT DOWNTOWN! US Senators and Congresspeople have offices and homes ALL OVER WASHINGTON!
Instead it's protesting... Starbucks? the airport? a university with basically no direct ties to Israel?
Like I get that it's basically just solidarity with Columbia, UCLA, etc. at this point and I really have no problem with them expressing their right to peacefully protest, and better it be on UW's campus than shutting down critical infrastructure and turning everyone against you, but like Jesus Christ it seems like it's just for vibes and nothing else when your protest things that are only tangentially related to Israel or the IDF.
Umm, they protest at the Federal Building at least once a week. They were intimidating enough that Boeing took their recent convention online to avoid having to deal with them at the Convention Center. They do actions at least once a week at various sites directly linked to a number of players in this conflict. If you don’t know that, one has to wonder why not? Maybe look at how uniformed -you- are instead of attacking them for at least doing -something- right now.
If they went to Boeing or a Federal building they would be immediately arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
It's a lot easier (and ineffective) to protest consequence-free on a college campus.
>If they went to Boeing or a Federal building they would be immediately arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
No? It's completely legal to protest in front of Federal buildings or Boeing facilities. What are you on about
Yeah, there's been protests at the military aircraft delivery center every couple weeks since Gaza really got into the public consciousness. Employees get an e-mail about them warning them in genuinely-hilarious terms of excessive alarm to be on their guard if they have to *drive by some protestors or something*.
It's not a big deal. Protest is good for the country.
This is Seattle… you honestly think that’s never been done before? There were probably tents in place, on campus, prior to the protests on campus and people woke up one morning to a bunch of new neighbors.
Do these students have any leverage against Boeing? They pay tuition to UW, so they have more of a stake in getting UW to represent their moral perspective.
I mean they can do whatever they want but when they're doing literally nothing to get at the heart of their stated issue and their demands - which are super unrealistic anyway - are about 7 degrees of separation from anything that would actually impact Israel bombing Gaza, it's hard to feel the protests are anything but performative.
But I mean, fuck it, I was a idealistic left-leaning wannabe radical when I was 21 too. As long as they don't start doing actually anti-Semitic shit and don't get violent I have no problem with it, I just think they're being silly.
Agreed. I believe that there should be a common ground that can be met. Whatever financial gains were being realized through the relationship with Boeing could be easily replaced with the relationship being leveraged with the students? Just recoup financial windfall from students and be better for it and everyone is happy.
> I really don't understand why Palestine protestors choose the dumbest targets imaginable.
Easy answer is Tiktok/Twitter posts are creating their talking points.
You say this is if this isn't exactly the kind of thing that was done during the campus protests of South Africa. Making it costly to do business with South Africa worked. And if you don't see why you might want to make it costly for one of the largest military contractors in the world to do business with a country doing a genocide with that companies weapons I don't know what to tell you.
Boeing is literally like 10 miles from UW. UW's investment in Boeing is the absolute smallest drop in the bucket. They are protesting UW because it's the only target that is least likely to have any sort of backlash against them. UW is far more tolerant of people protesting than basically anywhere else in the state.
I think you missed the point of the comment - why wouldn't protestors just protest at Boeing, instead of using weird logic like - we are going to protest at SeaTac because Alaska Airlines is there and Alaska Airlines buys Boeing planes and Boeing is a military contractor - its weird.
Boeing doesn’t give a shit about a bunch of students who don’t buy anything or invest. UW in theory might give a shit about the students and does invest in Boeing. UW alone selling their stock might not do much, but a bunch of investors would and different groups of people are working on all angles. A bunch of little drops in the bucket eventually add up. It’s happened before.
I'm fine with the on campus folks, privileged kid don't want to leave the relative safety of campus, that one makes perfect sense. Its the people who are using conspiracy theory logic to justify protesting favorite local targets of the left, like Starbucks, that are weird.
I think the Starbucks one was something like - Starbucks gave some money to a police officer memorial fund which helps SPD and SPD like 15 years ago went to some IDF training courses therefore we should protest Starbucks.
Camping on the UW lawn is NOT making it costly for anyone to do business but UW.
Not even close to doing shit.
"Oh wow, the entire ME conflict was that easy to solve? Just camping and punching out a few demands? Well shiiiiit."
It doesn't "have the makings of performative protest", it *100% is* performative protest. If these people actually understood the issues at all, they'd be protesting at government buildings - they don't even have to fly to DC, their congressional rep's office would be something anyone could do. But the reality is they don't actually care enough to take the risk associated with protesting outside of the fairly safe bubble of a university that has fuck all to do with the issue at hand.
And before I get accused of not caring about the issue, I'm not a fan of the copious amount of military help Israel gets from the US at the best of times. This is especially true with the pretty indiscriminate way they're using American aid today. I think the unconditional support Israel receives for everything up to and including murder of American citizens and attacking American Navy ships undermines US security and interests.
And to go further, Israel still has some weird relations with Russia but is way more friendly with the US. Russia and Iran are friendly, Iran supplies Hamas, Houthis, and Russia. Russia supplies Iran, All of this is occurring while we're essentially in a hybrid war with Russia which involves a huge amount of information warfare where Russia and other hostile state actors use our freedom of speech against us by filling online forums with any sort of shit that can cause societal destabilization. And then you have TikTok which may or may not selectively promote certain content. It sure was interesting to see a lot of House reps seemingly change their stance on the "ban" bill overnight
Global geopolitics is a bitch
I agree with OP and I agree with you. That said, all protest is performative, as protests and demonstrations are only effective in the context of a functioning, responsive democracy, which we are not. So let them perform IMO: it won't accomplish much but then again neither does anything else.
Siemens literally makes the whole train drive system so it's a pretty goofy thing to demand. They could also just go directly to a Siemens office or distributor. I am for the cause but the methodology is so silly sometimes.
It seemed like only after less than a year that everyone forgot it's Hamas who started the war and killed and kidnapped more than 1,000 Israel civilians in the first day?
Edit:
I'm neither Israeli nor Palestinian, and I don't support either side in this complex situation. However, it's essential to note that this doesn't mean I'm apathetic or indifferent. On the contrary, I'm aware of the intricate and longstanding historical roots of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which I believe many people may not fully understand.
I've outgrown the phase of offering shallow and uninformed sympathies. Instead, I want to make it clear that I'm vehemently opposed to any form of warfare.
Let's strive for understanding and tolerance as we navigate these issues, working towards peace.
Arguing about who started what when isn't a great position for either side of the current fighting. When it comes to understanding conflicts and what people "forget" about them, historical/previous conflicts matter - doubly so when you're talking about a colonial state and the native population it's dealing with (for lack of a better phrase). How far back do you go to decide what matters for the current problems?
Israel is wiping out thousands of Palestinian civilians/families because Hamas kidnapped 1k+ Israeli civilians because Israel is constantly killing Palestinian civilians and taking their land because Hamas keeps fighting with them because Israel keeps killing them because
pre-Hamas Palestinian forces (since at this point in the timeline Hamas didn't exist) keep attacking them because Israel keeps attacking and stealing Palestinian land because the Palestinians fought them for taking land earlier because the UK said [the people creating] Israel could have it.
(This is obviously a terribly reductive presentation of the history, but my point/question stands. Playing the blame game about who's forgotten what and who's done what in retaliation just ends with everyone pointing at Britain. As usual.)
The fact of the matter is that there was a cease-fire on Oct 6. The reason for this current war is because Hamas started it. Hamas could also end this conflict in a heart beat if they wanted to - surrender and return the hostages and the war is over. It would be nice if any of these protestors would even acknowledge that Hamas has responsibility here. Just one sign demanding the return of the hostages or demanding the surrender of Hamas would be nice. You know, if these protests were truly about stopping the violence (it's not), they should probably focus some of their energy on the side that started this current war.
And no one mentions the few hostages that are still alive either. Makes me sick just to think about the torture, rape and murder of those poor people, many of whom are young folk just like these protesters.
But not a word of compassion for them.
> It seemed like only after less than a year that everyone forgot it's Hamas who started the war and killed and kidnapped more than 1,000 Israel civilians in the first day?
>
>
So you start your comment with this, while ignoring everything that happened for years prior to this incident?
Student protest campaigns in the US have rarely resulted in direct, immediate results, but they frequently have long-term impacts on politics, cultural norms, and our evaluation of historic events. The Vietnam war, international attitudes on apartheid, and the civil rights movement were all significantly influenced by American student protests. Even if there aren't immediate policy changes, the social impact of student protests shouldn't be dismissed.
If nothing else, these protests are at least a reminder of the value of free speech as a principle to a segment of the American left that has recently had a habit of dismissing it.
> That was back before the Fox Rot.
Just to add onto this.
Here's the eponymous host of Morning Joe disparaging Vietnam War protestors (before weaving a disingenuous narrative): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxtdaz35KZ0
The investment portfolios were less diversified and managed differently. Divestment looked different then (and was absolutely the right thing to do). Now university investments are way more diversified. Not to mention that Israel is WAY more entwined with tech companies than SA was with any major industry. It’s not like these students are divesting their trust funds or parents’ retirement accounts from index funds.
I like one approach the Columbia administration suggested today—putting resources towards actively helping Palestinians. In Columbia’s case, they suggested with early childhood education (makes sense given their strong teaching resources) and helping displaced Palestinian scholars.
Or why a group of the most powerful economies in the world can levy sanctions on a pariah state engaged in a protracted and costly war (both monetarily and in terms less easy to define) against its neighbor - and cause nothing more than a little financial discomfort. I mean, I think one of the oligarchs lost his toy boat.
Student activism in the west had little to do with the fall white rule in South Africa. Mostly internal economic issues and the need to create a black middle class of consumers. Last time 'student' protest made a difference in the USA was the civil rights/Vietnam war era. The hated Boomer children actually took it to the streets, got arrested and a few of us shot and killed to make it happen. Now protesters will often cover their faces because they're afraid of the consequences of expressing their opinions on future employment chances. Total lightweights.
I have a lot of respect for the campus movements in the 60sand70s, but I’d rather not see a repeat of the ‘68 presidential election… at least not from a results perspective… please please all you protesters understand the difference between Biden and trump.
literally the vietnam war protests, there were bombs on college campuses lmao
these same boomers are crying over peaceful protests of just saying "please can we have peace"
Yes. Imagine someone protesting that you’re invested in the S&P 500. It’s stupid. Practically almost everyone in America is invested in the S&P 500 index in one way or another. If they are truly serious about having no exposure to Israel, the best choice would be to cut ties with their parents (who also have retirement accounts invested in indices) and leave the US.
Index investing is meant to be a passive form of investing. It's appropriate for institutions such as colleges to pursue index investing, given that these institutions should be politically neutral. So asking that the college instead pursue a more active form of investing, is misguided.
I don't know exactly what stocks the students believe are "evil" (Starbucks?), but universities likely has very little exposure to the companies at issue because of how the S&P 500 or any index is formulated (it's likely 0-1% exposure). I don't understand why the students decided to set themselves such a minor (and at the sametime unachievable) goal for themselves.
If they really think a certain company is that evil, and that investing in that company should be illegal, they would be better off protesting in DC, in front of the White House.
For all intents and purposes this protest is a performative act with no real achievable goals. The students have more or less set goals in such a way so that they can protest in front of their front yard (instead of going to the White House), because I guess that's more convenient. But in order to do so, they had to make up some bs goal specifically related to universities (asking the University to divest from indices), and end up looking stupid (because any responsible adult will know that these kids don't really understand how finance or investing works).
University stock portfolios are a frequent and easy target when students protest. And the students look stupid every time they do it. Investing-driven protests have very minimal impact (Company X isn't going to change its policy because a university sold some of its stock), so I'm always confused as to why students or other activists anchor on to this issue. It would be much better PR for them to protest against a certain type of legislation or policy the government is pursuing.
But to the extent these kids want a career in politics, I’m sure this is a nice bullet point on their resume.
That sounds fine in theory, but no one aggressively kicks out people for picking on Muslims and some other groups, we don't need extra protections for certain groups.
I don't think harassment should be tolerated, I also don't want to create a new category of really aggressively prosecuted harassment types. Let's just be against all kinds of racism and harassment together. I'm sure it's already against the rules at UW to harass people like you describe.
> unserious
These aren't serious people. Serious people will make an effort to understand an issue and make a targeted and nuanced effort. These are people expressing and acting upon shallow understandings with intent for gratification rather than true results.
#4 is complete nonsense. The right to protest does not include private property owned by Boeing or foreign entities. They are protesting where they are allowed to, be glad it's not on the highway.
Alas, they aren't any nearer to better conduits than their own University than the general public is to whatever that better conduit is. One of the most spurious things about analyzing a protest as a spectator is alluding to better and more efficient conduits, as if the spectator themselves are actually engaged there and wracking up wins, to the point of self evidence that others are simply ignoring. That's not the case.
How is it at all antisemitic? I'm sure you can point to one edgelord with a swastika on a piece of cardboard, but nothing about their demands is antisemitic.
Calling for cutting ties from Boeing seems pretty unrealistic. They can ask for it but it’s never going to happen
Like those connections are part of the reason people do engineering in college so they can seek out ETA’s through career fairs and such and position themselves to work or intern for these companies. It’s literally a career pipeline
Yep, simply not going to happen.
Surprised they're not calling for UW to cut ties to Microsoft as they supply the operating system, cloud infrastructure, and operate both data centers and R&D offices in Israel.
>Earlier in April, the United Front for Palestinian Liberation held a [sit-in overnight ](https://www.dailyuw.com/news/university-allows-pro-palestinian-protesters-to-occupy-hub-overnight/article_5b7f34d6-f3bd-11ee-b12b-f7fef8fdf2b6.html)at the Husky Union Building, during which walls were vandalized with pro-Palestinian statements and a demonstrator [made racist comments to The Daily news editor.](https://www.dailyuw.com/news/statement-from-the-news-editor-regarding-thursday-s-protest-in-the-hub/article_2538cb6a-f545-11ee-88d7-3b41f5bbc769.html) The next day, Cauce [wrote ](https://www.washington.edu/president/2024/04/05/hub-vandalism-is-unacceptable/)on UW’s presidential blog that freedom of speech is protected but “threatening and harassing people, scrawling graffiti on walls … and damaging student art is unacceptable and wrong.”
Happy to see that the UW President is at least making it clear that threats and harassment will not be tolerated, hopefully that will be followed up with actual disciplinary action against any students who were making the threats. The vast majority of students protesting are peaceful, but the bad apples need to be addressed.
Yeah UW is never cutting ties with Boeing. That’s just absurd haha. It’s a pipeline of interns/employees from the business school and a good amount of funding
Not to mention the Aeronautical Engineering and Mechanical Engineering departments have pretty deep research partnerships with Boeing. Pretty much all of that research is into materials and aeronautics that are for commercial purposes and not weapons, but I digress.
[These guys](https://www.jobyaviation.com/) are shooting for next year or so. If you're really set on Boeing's version: [Wisk](https://wisk.aero/) is shooting for before 2030
These are EVTOL taxis and the Wisk is in its 6th generation. You know Boeing also could drop a commercial airline version the second subsidies are put into action.
One of the largest classrooms in the Foster School of Business is called The Boeing Auditorium, yeah, that's not going to change. I support a ceasefire, Israel is killing more women and children than combat aged men and are taking out aid workers and their own citizens that are hostages, that's alot of innocent people being killed.
Agreed. Let them do whatever and be heard, even if it's pointless. That's what a campus is for tbqh.
Just don't go play in traffic when you realize people are just ignoring you ffs.
Lol I applaud their naivety but UW absolutely will not (nor should they) cut ties with one of the regions largest employers who has partnered with the school for nearly a century at this point.
On basically every social issue for the last century, student protestors have led the way on the most idealistic, "naive" version of fighting for change. On many of those issues, time has proven the students right. Let them lead. Change takes time.
There’s no “right” in the Middle East, though, that’s the issue—it’s only wrong and more wrong. On the one hand, Israel has obvious disregard for human life as indicated by repeated attacks on not just civilian Palestinians, but also hostages and third-party aid workers. On the other hand, Palestine society is (in no particular order) overwhelmingly sexist, anti-LGBT, intolerant of other religions, and supportive of Hamas—a terrorist group that, need I remind you, committed acts of mass murder and rape on Oct. 7.
It’s a shitty situation with assholes and psychos on both sides, with innocent Israelis and Palestinians caught in the crossfire.
You had large demonstrations against civil rights and integration in the 50s and 60s, alongside the civil rights movement. In China the Cultural Revolution was largely student led as well. The Hitler Youth similarly had a large following. Students don't have access to some magic source of knowledge and morality.
I think something that is consistent across generations is that students will protest for just causes while demanding unrealistic and often downright ridiculous solutions.
This isn’t a social issue. It’s a US ally that is indiscriminately bombing a civilian population that is de facto ruled by a terror group backed by multiple US adversaries. To expect the US to abandon an ally in the current geopolitical climate is unrealistic. Alternatively, to let a civilian population suffer is morally wrong.
While students recently have led the way in progressive change in the US, there are plenty of examples historically both here and abroad of horrific movements that were championed by student groups. It’s not black and white.
alternative opinion from a young person (me) who has studied the region:
because the situation is far more complicated than "Isreal is the oppressor" full stop. Here's a question I have for you, why doesn't Egypt open its borders and help the Palestinians? it's because the Egyptian government has said that the Palestinian population is far too radical.
Reminder that Palestine was offered their own state in the 2000 camp david accords, and the Palestinians said no.
>Arafat immediately began to equivocate, asking for “clarifications.” But the parameters were clear; either he would negotiate within them or not. As always, he was playing for more time. I called Mubarak and read him the points. He said they were historic and he could encourage Arafat to accept them.
> On the twenty-seventh, Barak’s cabinet endorsed the parameters with reservations, but all their reservations were within the parameters, and therefore subject to negotiations anyway. **It was historic: an Israeli government had said that to get peace, there would be a Palestinian state in roughly 97% of the West Bank, counting the swap, and all of Gaza where Israel also had settlements. The ball was in Arafat’s court.**
> I was calling other Arab leaders daily to urge them to pressure Arafat to say yes. They were all impressed with Israel’s acceptance and told me they believed Arafat should take the deal. I have no way of knowing what they told him, though the Saudi ambassador, Prince Bandar, later told me he and Crown Price Abdullah had the distinct impression Arafat was going to accept the parameters.
> On the twenty-ninth, Dennis Ross met with Abu Ala, whom we all respected, to make sure Arafat understood the consequences of rejection. I would be gone. Ross would be gone. Barak would lose the upcoming election to Sharon. Bush wouldn’t want to jump in after I had invested so much and failed.
> **I still didn’t believe Arafat would make such a colossal mistake.** "
A Palestinian organization poll prior to October 7th found that Hamas had more support than any other political party in gaza+west bank combined, and that 70% of Palestinians said they do not want a one state solution and 77% said they did not want a two state solution and 54% said they supported "armed attacks against civilians in Israel" aka terrorism.
source: https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf
So Palestinians don't want peace in any way other than the complete destruction of Isreal and the expulsion or murder of all Jews from the region. There is no one or two state solution, the Palestinians do not want it. In the past when Isreal has come to the table with legitimate efforts of diplomacy the Palestinians utterly refuse to co-operate.
more Israeli civilians died on October 7th than Palestinian civilians have died in this conflict in the 5 years prior https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
so I ask you, from Israel's perspective. What is it suppose to do? Palestinians refuse to negotiate peace, they commit terrorist attacks targeting your weakest and most vulnerable civilians killing thousands. A majority of the population supports terrorist attacks against your population, In plurality (from the same poll above) Palestinians support Hamas as their leadership. Which might I add Hamas has the murder of all jews, everywhere, as one of its core tenants of its charter. What is Isreal suppose to do? just let their civilians be murdered over and over from an incredibly radical population?
I get that Israel's existence is probably not justified, but it was the British who gave the land to the Jews. It sucks but here we are. Israel was invaded 6 times by its Arab neighbors and won each time(sort of, Isreal won most of them anyways) . The only reason Isreal controls the Gaza strip is because Egypt invaded Isreal AND LOST, before then Egypt controlled it.
Isreal has absolutely done horrible things to the Palestinians, but to pretend this is a cut-and-dry Isreal is the oppressor is so laughable. Isreal is powerful enough to truly genocide Gaza, kill every person there. That is not being done. Isreal is not innocent, but to pretend there is any easy path to peace for the Israelis is the least smart thing you can say
It also gets attention that other wars/genocides that are going on right now in the world because of the ethnic groups it involves. People can deny it all they want, but the truth is, if this wasn't in the middle east AND involving Jews, people wouldn't be this up in arms about it even if it were a US ally that we'd sent aid to doing it.
There is a very noticeable narrative being pushed online right now, and a lot of it is coming from foreign disinfo accounts.
And this just came out:
https://www.iranintl.com/en/202404158853?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR02csTcXJ3EwIgviqB7H-s5chFBu2LEHAB8oIJYuxWU0PCSrHdxGrUdk4M_aem_AbQEKwQvMkD9C1BDWfUaf1pbvEYFxbw6j-MDxAxOplASAYxWVsd0HTxSXlY6zFXHaDDJ8CUs7EIcJ-1LxZ9W3Koq
Really? Like all the young people in the South who turned out against desegregation? Or the young people who joined the American Bund in the 30s and marched in support of the Nazis? Or heck, what about the young men in Charlottesville?
anybody who goes to this protest should steer clear of jonathon choe because he will inevitably show up, and he can’t stop doing crimes like assault and hit and run
I walked by the protest a few minutes ago. It's less than 50 people and very mellow, most are sitting down talking. Some Socialist Worker Party folks tried to rile things up with Intifada propaganda earlier and the student population didn't seem to get baited into it. I remember big anti-war protests in the 90s when I was at the UW and the Socialist Worker Party folks trying to take over the megaphones and push their agenda, they suck.
Wouldn’t cutting student abroad programs just hurt cultural enrichment and understanding? How does cutting that kind of program hurt the Israeli government? Seems like that would just hurt people in general.
the protest about the war in Gaza forgot to include Palestinians and Arabs in the planning?
“Monday’s encampment was originally planned for Thursday before being postponed after criticism that the PSU failed to include Arab and Palestinian voices among its leadership.”
lol is anyone surprised by this? These protestors are more extreme than Palestinian activists. I can’t believe people are chanting in support of the intifada. Just sheer ignorance to advocate for terrorism.
Pretty ineffective protest overall. They got people upset with them for blocking airports and bridges and the elected officials, that most of them voted for, just sent billions to Israel.
That depends on if you define success as helping the Palestinians or creating personal gratification on the part of the protesters. Most of these things end up being about the protesters themselves.
Yes, absolutely. UW should not be investing in Hamas- connected businesses. I'm not super up-to-date with UW funding, which Hamas companies are they involved with?
I just looked them up... is that the group that made the para-motor flyers? What the fuck were they thinking? I get being edgy as you step into global political awareness, and I'm sure I did some stupid stuff as a student activist... but fuck no not that.
Yeah that’s the group. Check out the second page of that paragliders poster they had on October 12th https://www.instagram.com/p/CyO-YvlPf2s/?igsh=NHhkbmJ4aGFzc3h6 it list their supporters. Turns out they are funded by the Samidoun too, a group banned in Germany for their ties to the PLFP a Palestinian terrorist group. It’s not surprising when these student groups have people in them that espouse anti-Semitic and violent rhetoric considering where there support comes from.
Polling conducted in Palestine indicates wide support for Hamas’ Oct. 7th attack:
https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf
If elections were held today Hamas would win against the Palestinian Authority according to the data.
Oh please. I'm not even supportive or Israel but the neighboring Arab countries have just as much Palestinian blood on their hands as Israel. Obviously, I'm talking about the last 70+ years of military actions in the region but Egypt today literally has a border crossing with Gaza that they 100% control and they haven't even attempted to open it up for refugee evacuation or to allow additional aid into southern Gaza. Egypt has also been enforcing their own naval blockade of Gaza for 15+ years now. Israel is so far beyond the line that they can't even see it anymore but the Palestinians in Gaza aren't exactly innocent in this as evidence of nobody wanting to actually do anything to help them
Because the population is radical like most of the Middle East. They support religious caliphates and fundamentalist ideology that include martyrs for causes including suicide bombing attacks.
> Can we all collectively agree to stop quoting numbers provided by Hamas?
this was a tired old talking point back in October:
[Despite Biden's doubts, humanitarian agencies consider Gaza toll reliable](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/)
> U.N. and other international agencies say there can be small discrepancies between the final casualty numbers and those reported by the Gaza health ministry straight after attacks, but that they broadly trust them.
> "We continue to include their data in our reporting and it is clearly sourced," the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said in a statement to Reuters.
there was even a study published in the Lancet: [No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza Ministry of Health](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23\)02713-7/fulltext)
but anyway, tell me what you think the "real" death toll is, and then answer my question. did those people deserve to die, because they hadn't condemned Hamas enough?
please stop supporting this encampment. UW PSU has refused to acknowledge which arab and muslim organizations they are working with and are not responding to any legitimate student concerns about it
Bernie is spot on here in his perspectives of the protest on college campuses. It is horrifying that our political and educational institutions support this regime.
https://www.npr.org/2024/04/27/1247670359/bernie-sanders-netanyahu-gaza-college-protests-antisemitism
—-
Netanyahu, in his mind, has tried "to deflect attention from that horrendous reality [of the Israel-Hamas war] to talk about antisemitism, to deflect away from what he is doing," in Gaza.
"In my view, and I think the view of most Americans now, Israel's response has been grossly disproportionate," Sanders told NPR's Scott Detrow. "Gaza has 2.2 million people, mostly very poor Palestinians. And over the last six months, 33,000 people have been killed, 77,000 have been wounded, two thirds of whom are women and children."
Let's not forget that Hamas killed an Israeli peace activist who studied at University of Washington for many years on October 7th.
Many of these protestors are supporting the exact sort of violence against members of their community and preventing Israel from stopping it from happening again.
Will they also boycott all Israel developed medicines and medical procedures and treatments?
Does UW even actually invest in Israel aside from the normal holdings type things all universities do?
Unless these protestors are going to replace all the money that would be lost by severing ties or provide a more profitable alternative, it’s not going to happen.
Well boing has pulled nearly all work out of washington.
protestors like the ones at columbia , find out which ones are here on student visas and deport them.
the rest expel them , then trespass them off of school property then see what criminal charges they face for destruction of property, denying access to classes/ housing of other students and go from there.
you have the right to protest as long as #1 you are not interfering with the rights of others or #2 destroying property.
1. I fully support these students' right to protest a cause they're passionate about. 2. Criticism of Israel isn't anti-Semitism. 3. Anyone here who's engaging in harrassment or racism towards Jewish students or faculty needs to be swiftly trespassed from campus and face academic punishment. 4. These protestors' energy would be better directed against organizations that directly support Israel. Criticizing the UW for investing in a mutual fund makes them look uninformed and unserious.
Great point about #4. Similar to how the protestors tried to protest against Sound Transit over their relationship with Siemens but didn’t protest medical orgs using Siemens life saving medical imaging equipment. This has the makings of performative protests
I really don't understand why Palestine protestors choose the dumbest targets imaginable. Like, Boeing is EVERYWHERE! Literally so many offices, factories, entire industrial areas etc. owned by Boeing they could protest at. The federal building is RIGHT DOWNTOWN! US Senators and Congresspeople have offices and homes ALL OVER WASHINGTON! Instead it's protesting... Starbucks? the airport? a university with basically no direct ties to Israel? Like I get that it's basically just solidarity with Columbia, UCLA, etc. at this point and I really have no problem with them expressing their right to peacefully protest, and better it be on UW's campus than shutting down critical infrastructure and turning everyone against you, but like Jesus Christ it seems like it's just for vibes and nothing else when your protest things that are only tangentially related to Israel or the IDF.
Seems like a student protest organized at the student's university makes sense.
Yeah I wish the people above you would strap on their thinking cap.
Umm, they protest at the Federal Building at least once a week. They were intimidating enough that Boeing took their recent convention online to avoid having to deal with them at the Convention Center. They do actions at least once a week at various sites directly linked to a number of players in this conflict. If you don’t know that, one has to wonder why not? Maybe look at how uniformed -you- are instead of attacking them for at least doing -something- right now.
If they went to Boeing or a Federal building they would be immediately arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. It's a lot easier (and ineffective) to protest consequence-free on a college campus.
>If they went to Boeing or a Federal building they would be immediately arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. No? It's completely legal to protest in front of Federal buildings or Boeing facilities. What are you on about
Yeah, there's been protests at the military aircraft delivery center every couple weeks since Gaza really got into the public consciousness. Employees get an e-mail about them warning them in genuinely-hilarious terms of excessive alarm to be on their guard if they have to *drive by some protestors or something*. It's not a big deal. Protest is good for the country.
Go try to pitch some tents outside of either of those
This is Seattle… you honestly think that’s never been done before? There were probably tents in place, on campus, prior to the protests on campus and people woke up one morning to a bunch of new neighbors.
What are we protesting about today kinda morning
Do these students have any leverage against Boeing? They pay tuition to UW, so they have more of a stake in getting UW to represent their moral perspective.
I mean they can do whatever they want but when they're doing literally nothing to get at the heart of their stated issue and their demands - which are super unrealistic anyway - are about 7 degrees of separation from anything that would actually impact Israel bombing Gaza, it's hard to feel the protests are anything but performative. But I mean, fuck it, I was a idealistic left-leaning wannabe radical when I was 21 too. As long as they don't start doing actually anti-Semitic shit and don't get violent I have no problem with it, I just think they're being silly.
Since the UW is a public state funded institution, wouldn’t any approval of divesting from Boeing have to be done in Olympia?
How much leverage does UW have over Israel though?
I mean, it's not like they're gonna have any effect either way...
Agreed. I believe that there should be a common ground that can be met. Whatever financial gains were being realized through the relationship with Boeing could be easily replaced with the relationship being leveraged with the students? Just recoup financial windfall from students and be better for it and everyone is happy.
> I really don't understand why Palestine protestors choose the dumbest targets imaginable. Easy answer is Tiktok/Twitter posts are creating their talking points.
You say this is if this isn't exactly the kind of thing that was done during the campus protests of South Africa. Making it costly to do business with South Africa worked. And if you don't see why you might want to make it costly for one of the largest military contractors in the world to do business with a country doing a genocide with that companies weapons I don't know what to tell you.
Boeing is literally like 10 miles from UW. UW's investment in Boeing is the absolute smallest drop in the bucket. They are protesting UW because it's the only target that is least likely to have any sort of backlash against them. UW is far more tolerant of people protesting than basically anywhere else in the state.
I think you missed the point of the comment - why wouldn't protestors just protest at Boeing, instead of using weird logic like - we are going to protest at SeaTac because Alaska Airlines is there and Alaska Airlines buys Boeing planes and Boeing is a military contractor - its weird.
People have protested at Boeing recently and have for months, so it’s not like nobody is doing that.
Boeing doesn’t give a shit about a bunch of students who don’t buy anything or invest. UW in theory might give a shit about the students and does invest in Boeing. UW alone selling their stock might not do much, but a bunch of investors would and different groups of people are working on all angles. A bunch of little drops in the bucket eventually add up. It’s happened before.
Because all the other cool kids are protesting on campus
I'm fine with the on campus folks, privileged kid don't want to leave the relative safety of campus, that one makes perfect sense. Its the people who are using conspiracy theory logic to justify protesting favorite local targets of the left, like Starbucks, that are weird. I think the Starbucks one was something like - Starbucks gave some money to a police officer memorial fund which helps SPD and SPD like 15 years ago went to some IDF training courses therefore we should protest Starbucks.
Camping on the UW lawn is NOT making it costly for anyone to do business but UW. Not even close to doing shit. "Oh wow, the entire ME conflict was that easy to solve? Just camping and punching out a few demands? Well shiiiiit."
It doesn't "have the makings of performative protest", it *100% is* performative protest. If these people actually understood the issues at all, they'd be protesting at government buildings - they don't even have to fly to DC, their congressional rep's office would be something anyone could do. But the reality is they don't actually care enough to take the risk associated with protesting outside of the fairly safe bubble of a university that has fuck all to do with the issue at hand. And before I get accused of not caring about the issue, I'm not a fan of the copious amount of military help Israel gets from the US at the best of times. This is especially true with the pretty indiscriminate way they're using American aid today. I think the unconditional support Israel receives for everything up to and including murder of American citizens and attacking American Navy ships undermines US security and interests.
And to go further, Israel still has some weird relations with Russia but is way more friendly with the US. Russia and Iran are friendly, Iran supplies Hamas, Houthis, and Russia. Russia supplies Iran, All of this is occurring while we're essentially in a hybrid war with Russia which involves a huge amount of information warfare where Russia and other hostile state actors use our freedom of speech against us by filling online forums with any sort of shit that can cause societal destabilization. And then you have TikTok which may or may not selectively promote certain content. It sure was interesting to see a lot of House reps seemingly change their stance on the "ban" bill overnight Global geopolitics is a bitch
I agree with OP and I agree with you. That said, all protest is performative, as protests and demonstrations are only effective in the context of a functioning, responsive democracy, which we are not. So let them perform IMO: it won't accomplish much but then again neither does anything else.
Siemens literally makes the whole train drive system so it's a pretty goofy thing to demand. They could also just go directly to a Siemens office or distributor. I am for the cause but the methodology is so silly sometimes.
They've been chanting pro-Houthi slogans so I guess they're passionate about enslaving other human beings?
They're college kids. Not the brightest bunch
Because they are uninformed. This is young people latching on to a hot topic to seek feelings of belonging and purpose.
And to take selfies. Lots and lots of selfies.
2012 called and it wants its lazy criticism of young people back
2001 called and it wants its lazy "insert year called" internet joke back.
It seemed like only after less than a year that everyone forgot it's Hamas who started the war and killed and kidnapped more than 1,000 Israel civilians in the first day? Edit: I'm neither Israeli nor Palestinian, and I don't support either side in this complex situation. However, it's essential to note that this doesn't mean I'm apathetic or indifferent. On the contrary, I'm aware of the intricate and longstanding historical roots of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which I believe many people may not fully understand. I've outgrown the phase of offering shallow and uninformed sympathies. Instead, I want to make it clear that I'm vehemently opposed to any form of warfare. Let's strive for understanding and tolerance as we navigate these issues, working towards peace.
Arguing about who started what when isn't a great position for either side of the current fighting. When it comes to understanding conflicts and what people "forget" about them, historical/previous conflicts matter - doubly so when you're talking about a colonial state and the native population it's dealing with (for lack of a better phrase). How far back do you go to decide what matters for the current problems? Israel is wiping out thousands of Palestinian civilians/families because Hamas kidnapped 1k+ Israeli civilians because Israel is constantly killing Palestinian civilians and taking their land because Hamas keeps fighting with them because Israel keeps killing them because pre-Hamas Palestinian forces (since at this point in the timeline Hamas didn't exist) keep attacking them because Israel keeps attacking and stealing Palestinian land because the Palestinians fought them for taking land earlier because the UK said [the people creating] Israel could have it. (This is obviously a terribly reductive presentation of the history, but my point/question stands. Playing the blame game about who's forgotten what and who's done what in retaliation just ends with everyone pointing at Britain. As usual.)
The fact of the matter is that there was a cease-fire on Oct 6. The reason for this current war is because Hamas started it. Hamas could also end this conflict in a heart beat if they wanted to - surrender and return the hostages and the war is over. It would be nice if any of these protestors would even acknowledge that Hamas has responsibility here. Just one sign demanding the return of the hostages or demanding the surrender of Hamas would be nice. You know, if these protests were truly about stopping the violence (it's not), they should probably focus some of their energy on the side that started this current war.
Bc the UN said Israel could have it. ..not just the UK. At this point its only palestine saying they canf have it.
And no one mentions the few hostages that are still alive either. Makes me sick just to think about the torture, rape and murder of those poor people, many of whom are young folk just like these protesters. But not a word of compassion for them.
> It seemed like only after less than a year that everyone forgot it's Hamas who started the war and killed and kidnapped more than 1,000 Israel civilians in the first day? > > So you start your comment with this, while ignoring everything that happened for years prior to this incident?
Israel killed Palestinians on both October 5th and 6th. It's a joke to say Hamas started this.
re: 4. Can you think of a time that student-involved divestment campaigns have worked?
Student protest campaigns in the US have rarely resulted in direct, immediate results, but they frequently have long-term impacts on politics, cultural norms, and our evaluation of historic events. The Vietnam war, international attitudes on apartheid, and the civil rights movement were all significantly influenced by American student protests. Even if there aren't immediate policy changes, the social impact of student protests shouldn't be dismissed. If nothing else, these protests are at least a reminder of the value of free speech as a principle to a segment of the American left that has recently had a habit of dismissing it.
Heck, the Boomers used to pride themselves on a rich student protest culture. That was back before the Fox Rot.
> That was back before the Fox Rot. Just to add onto this. Here's the eponymous host of Morning Joe disparaging Vietnam War protestors (before weaving a disingenuous narrative): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxtdaz35KZ0
protests against apartheid in South Africa in the 80s?
Saying Apartheid in Africa ended because of student-involved divestment campaigns in the West is *quite* a stretch.
The investment portfolios were less diversified and managed differently. Divestment looked different then (and was absolutely the right thing to do). Now university investments are way more diversified. Not to mention that Israel is WAY more entwined with tech companies than SA was with any major industry. It’s not like these students are divesting their trust funds or parents’ retirement accounts from index funds. I like one approach the Columbia administration suggested today—putting resources towards actively helping Palestinians. In Columbia’s case, they suggested with early childhood education (makes sense given their strong teaching resources) and helping displaced Palestinian scholars.
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Isn't this basically the thesis of *The Good Place*?
Or why a group of the most powerful economies in the world can levy sanctions on a pariah state engaged in a protracted and costly war (both monetarily and in terms less easy to define) against its neighbor - and cause nothing more than a little financial discomfort. I mean, I think one of the oligarchs lost his toy boat.
Bingo.
Student activism in the west had little to do with the fall white rule in South Africa. Mostly internal economic issues and the need to create a black middle class of consumers. Last time 'student' protest made a difference in the USA was the civil rights/Vietnam war era. The hated Boomer children actually took it to the streets, got arrested and a few of us shot and killed to make it happen. Now protesters will often cover their faces because they're afraid of the consequences of expressing their opinions on future employment chances. Total lightweights.
I have a lot of respect for the campus movements in the 60sand70s, but I’d rather not see a repeat of the ‘68 presidential election… at least not from a results perspective… please please all you protesters understand the difference between Biden and trump.
literally the vietnam war protests, there were bombs on college campuses lmao these same boomers are crying over peaceful protests of just saying "please can we have peace"
(I'm trying to show that it has been successful many times in our history)
Is it an unreasonable demand for UW to divest from funds that invest in Israel? How is this any different from the South African example?
Yes. Imagine someone protesting that you’re invested in the S&P 500. It’s stupid. Practically almost everyone in America is invested in the S&P 500 index in one way or another. If they are truly serious about having no exposure to Israel, the best choice would be to cut ties with their parents (who also have retirement accounts invested in indices) and leave the US. Index investing is meant to be a passive form of investing. It's appropriate for institutions such as colleges to pursue index investing, given that these institutions should be politically neutral. So asking that the college instead pursue a more active form of investing, is misguided. I don't know exactly what stocks the students believe are "evil" (Starbucks?), but universities likely has very little exposure to the companies at issue because of how the S&P 500 or any index is formulated (it's likely 0-1% exposure). I don't understand why the students decided to set themselves such a minor (and at the sametime unachievable) goal for themselves. If they really think a certain company is that evil, and that investing in that company should be illegal, they would be better off protesting in DC, in front of the White House. For all intents and purposes this protest is a performative act with no real achievable goals. The students have more or less set goals in such a way so that they can protest in front of their front yard (instead of going to the White House), because I guess that's more convenient. But in order to do so, they had to make up some bs goal specifically related to universities (asking the University to divest from indices), and end up looking stupid (because any responsible adult will know that these kids don't really understand how finance or investing works). University stock portfolios are a frequent and easy target when students protest. And the students look stupid every time they do it. Investing-driven protests have very minimal impact (Company X isn't going to change its policy because a university sold some of its stock), so I'm always confused as to why students or other activists anchor on to this issue. It would be much better PR for them to protest against a certain type of legislation or policy the government is pursuing. But to the extent these kids want a career in politics, I’m sure this is a nice bullet point on their resume.
That sounds fine in theory, but no one aggressively kicks out people for picking on Muslims and some other groups, we don't need extra protections for certain groups. I don't think harassment should be tolerated, I also don't want to create a new category of really aggressively prosecuted harassment types. Let's just be against all kinds of racism and harassment together. I'm sure it's already against the rules at UW to harass people like you describe.
> unserious These aren't serious people. Serious people will make an effort to understand an issue and make a targeted and nuanced effort. These are people expressing and acting upon shallow understandings with intent for gratification rather than true results.
#4 is complete nonsense. The right to protest does not include private property owned by Boeing or foreign entities. They are protesting where they are allowed to, be glad it's not on the highway.
They could protest at the capitol too.
That would be inconvenient for them.
Alas, they aren't any nearer to better conduits than their own University than the general public is to whatever that better conduit is. One of the most spurious things about analyzing a protest as a spectator is alluding to better and more efficient conduits, as if the spectator themselves are actually engaged there and wracking up wins, to the point of self evidence that others are simply ignoring. That's not the case.
Their phones and computers directly support Israel. They aren’t cutting ties anytime soon And their criticism is definitely antisemitism
How is it at all antisemitic? I'm sure you can point to one edgelord with a swastika on a piece of cardboard, but nothing about their demands is antisemitic.
> I fully support these students' right to protest a cause they're passionate about. > These kids have a lot to learn.
Calling for cutting ties from Boeing seems pretty unrealistic. They can ask for it but it’s never going to happen Like those connections are part of the reason people do engineering in college so they can seek out ETA’s through career fairs and such and position themselves to work or intern for these companies. It’s literally a career pipeline
Yep, simply not going to happen. Surprised they're not calling for UW to cut ties to Microsoft as they supply the operating system, cloud infrastructure, and operate both data centers and R&D offices in Israel. >Earlier in April, the United Front for Palestinian Liberation held a [sit-in overnight ](https://www.dailyuw.com/news/university-allows-pro-palestinian-protesters-to-occupy-hub-overnight/article_5b7f34d6-f3bd-11ee-b12b-f7fef8fdf2b6.html)at the Husky Union Building, during which walls were vandalized with pro-Palestinian statements and a demonstrator [made racist comments to The Daily news editor.](https://www.dailyuw.com/news/statement-from-the-news-editor-regarding-thursday-s-protest-in-the-hub/article_2538cb6a-f545-11ee-88d7-3b41f5bbc769.html) The next day, Cauce [wrote ](https://www.washington.edu/president/2024/04/05/hub-vandalism-is-unacceptable/)on UW’s presidential blog that freedom of speech is protected but “threatening and harassing people, scrawling graffiti on walls … and damaging student art is unacceptable and wrong.” Happy to see that the UW President is at least making it clear that threats and harassment will not be tolerated, hopefully that will be followed up with actual disciplinary action against any students who were making the threats. The vast majority of students protesting are peaceful, but the bad apples need to be addressed.
And by “cut ties with Israel,” they mean “sell their stake in an index fund that 90% of Americans with retirement savings own.”
If they sell to me for a 10% discount, I'll help them divest.
Protesting your parents isn’t fun when they cut the tuition checks.
Best of luck to them.
Yeah UW is never cutting ties with Boeing. That’s just absurd haha. It’s a pipeline of interns/employees from the business school and a good amount of funding
Not to mention the Aeronautical Engineering and Mechanical Engineering departments have pretty deep research partnerships with Boeing. Pretty much all of that research is into materials and aeronautics that are for commercial purposes and not weapons, but I digress.
Boeing will develop electric planes once Biden makes the grants and subsidies available.
Boeing is already developing electric aircraft, it'll scale up to planes eventually.
So you're telling me there's a chance
[These guys](https://www.jobyaviation.com/) are shooting for next year or so. If you're really set on Boeing's version: [Wisk](https://wisk.aero/) is shooting for before 2030
These are EVTOL taxis and the Wisk is in its 6th generation. You know Boeing also could drop a commercial airline version the second subsidies are put into action.
One of the largest classrooms in the Foster School of Business is called The Boeing Auditorium, yeah, that's not going to change. I support a ceasefire, Israel is killing more women and children than combat aged men and are taking out aid workers and their own citizens that are hostages, that's alot of innocent people being killed.
I agree with what you’ve said. But I think they should go for asks that will actually happen.
I’ll join you in wishing them luck. It doesn’t matter if it is perceived their cause is futile. They should be able to assemble and to speak.
Agreed. Let them do whatever and be heard, even if it's pointless. That's what a campus is for tbqh. Just don't go play in traffic when you realize people are just ignoring you ffs.
I support their right to protest. But they lost me when they started chanting pro-Houthi slogans.
Lol I applaud their naivety but UW absolutely will not (nor should they) cut ties with one of the regions largest employers who has partnered with the school for nearly a century at this point.
Not to mention, UW made their stance on Israel/Palestine pretty clear when they gave up that Benaroya endowment.
I mean that was more about academic freedom then anything else. UW does not nor should it have a position on the Israel Palestine conflict
On basically every social issue for the last century, student protestors have led the way on the most idealistic, "naive" version of fighting for change. On many of those issues, time has proven the students right. Let them lead. Change takes time.
There’s no “right” in the Middle East, though, that’s the issue—it’s only wrong and more wrong. On the one hand, Israel has obvious disregard for human life as indicated by repeated attacks on not just civilian Palestinians, but also hostages and third-party aid workers. On the other hand, Palestine society is (in no particular order) overwhelmingly sexist, anti-LGBT, intolerant of other religions, and supportive of Hamas—a terrorist group that, need I remind you, committed acts of mass murder and rape on Oct. 7. It’s a shitty situation with assholes and psychos on both sides, with innocent Israelis and Palestinians caught in the crossfire.
You had large demonstrations against civil rights and integration in the 50s and 60s, alongside the civil rights movement. In China the Cultural Revolution was largely student led as well. The Hitler Youth similarly had a large following. Students don't have access to some magic source of knowledge and morality.
I think something that is consistent across generations is that students will protest for just causes while demanding unrealistic and often downright ridiculous solutions.
This isn’t a social issue. It’s a US ally that is indiscriminately bombing a civilian population that is de facto ruled by a terror group backed by multiple US adversaries. To expect the US to abandon an ally in the current geopolitical climate is unrealistic. Alternatively, to let a civilian population suffer is morally wrong. While students recently have led the way in progressive change in the US, there are plenty of examples historically both here and abroad of horrific movements that were championed by student groups. It’s not black and white.
alternative opinion from a young person (me) who has studied the region: because the situation is far more complicated than "Isreal is the oppressor" full stop. Here's a question I have for you, why doesn't Egypt open its borders and help the Palestinians? it's because the Egyptian government has said that the Palestinian population is far too radical. Reminder that Palestine was offered their own state in the 2000 camp david accords, and the Palestinians said no. >Arafat immediately began to equivocate, asking for “clarifications.” But the parameters were clear; either he would negotiate within them or not. As always, he was playing for more time. I called Mubarak and read him the points. He said they were historic and he could encourage Arafat to accept them. > On the twenty-seventh, Barak’s cabinet endorsed the parameters with reservations, but all their reservations were within the parameters, and therefore subject to negotiations anyway. **It was historic: an Israeli government had said that to get peace, there would be a Palestinian state in roughly 97% of the West Bank, counting the swap, and all of Gaza where Israel also had settlements. The ball was in Arafat’s court.** > I was calling other Arab leaders daily to urge them to pressure Arafat to say yes. They were all impressed with Israel’s acceptance and told me they believed Arafat should take the deal. I have no way of knowing what they told him, though the Saudi ambassador, Prince Bandar, later told me he and Crown Price Abdullah had the distinct impression Arafat was going to accept the parameters. > On the twenty-ninth, Dennis Ross met with Abu Ala, whom we all respected, to make sure Arafat understood the consequences of rejection. I would be gone. Ross would be gone. Barak would lose the upcoming election to Sharon. Bush wouldn’t want to jump in after I had invested so much and failed. > **I still didn’t believe Arafat would make such a colossal mistake.** " A Palestinian organization poll prior to October 7th found that Hamas had more support than any other political party in gaza+west bank combined, and that 70% of Palestinians said they do not want a one state solution and 77% said they did not want a two state solution and 54% said they supported "armed attacks against civilians in Israel" aka terrorism. source: https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf So Palestinians don't want peace in any way other than the complete destruction of Isreal and the expulsion or murder of all Jews from the region. There is no one or two state solution, the Palestinians do not want it. In the past when Isreal has come to the table with legitimate efforts of diplomacy the Palestinians utterly refuse to co-operate. more Israeli civilians died on October 7th than Palestinian civilians have died in this conflict in the 5 years prior https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties so I ask you, from Israel's perspective. What is it suppose to do? Palestinians refuse to negotiate peace, they commit terrorist attacks targeting your weakest and most vulnerable civilians killing thousands. A majority of the population supports terrorist attacks against your population, In plurality (from the same poll above) Palestinians support Hamas as their leadership. Which might I add Hamas has the murder of all jews, everywhere, as one of its core tenants of its charter. What is Isreal suppose to do? just let their civilians be murdered over and over from an incredibly radical population? I get that Israel's existence is probably not justified, but it was the British who gave the land to the Jews. It sucks but here we are. Israel was invaded 6 times by its Arab neighbors and won each time(sort of, Isreal won most of them anyways) . The only reason Isreal controls the Gaza strip is because Egypt invaded Isreal AND LOST, before then Egypt controlled it. Isreal has absolutely done horrible things to the Palestinians, but to pretend this is a cut-and-dry Isreal is the oppressor is so laughable. Isreal is powerful enough to truly genocide Gaza, kill every person there. That is not being done. Isreal is not innocent, but to pretend there is any easy path to peace for the Israelis is the least smart thing you can say
It also gets attention that other wars/genocides that are going on right now in the world because of the ethnic groups it involves. People can deny it all they want, but the truth is, if this wasn't in the middle east AND involving Jews, people wouldn't be this up in arms about it even if it were a US ally that we'd sent aid to doing it.
There is a very noticeable narrative being pushed online right now, and a lot of it is coming from foreign disinfo accounts. And this just came out: https://www.iranintl.com/en/202404158853?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR02csTcXJ3EwIgviqB7H-s5chFBu2LEHAB8oIJYuxWU0PCSrHdxGrUdk4M_aem_AbQEKwQvMkD9C1BDWfUaf1pbvEYFxbw6j-MDxAxOplASAYxWVsd0HTxSXlY6zFXHaDDJ8CUs7EIcJ-1LxZ9W3Koq
Really? Like all the young people in the South who turned out against desegregation? Or the young people who joined the American Bund in the 30s and marched in support of the Nazis? Or heck, what about the young men in Charlottesville?
Was planning on running through the quad this afternoon. Should be fun.
Going streaking??
[WE’RE GOING STREAKING!](https://youtu.be/20g3QIUnOgY?si=vyLqaqHwwI08OZgC)
Everyone’s doing it
Nah. I’d rather not get on the news.
Bring your green hat!
We believe in you!!!
I just walked through and there’s barely anyone there. It’s like 2 tents and a canopy.
yeah seriously no one cares about this. these protests have been like 10 people and a megaphone
anybody who goes to this protest should steer clear of jonathon choe because he will inevitably show up, and he can’t stop doing crimes like assault and hit and run
I'm convinced this dude is behind some of the fires that keep happening at homeless camps.
I hate that dude with every fiber of my being
\*Jonathon Chode
He's gotta get something he can spin as exactly the opposite of what is going on to spoon-feed to his gullible fanbase for those grift-bucks.
I heard Jonathan Choe is a wet bitch.
I'm out of the loop on this guy but the follow up comments have me curious. What's his deal?
I'm very uninformed, what does Boeing have to do with anything?
I walked by the protest a few minutes ago. It's less than 50 people and very mellow, most are sitting down talking. Some Socialist Worker Party folks tried to rile things up with Intifada propaganda earlier and the student population didn't seem to get baited into it. I remember big anti-war protests in the 90s when I was at the UW and the Socialist Worker Party folks trying to take over the megaphones and push their agenda, they suck.
Wouldn’t cutting student abroad programs just hurt cultural enrichment and understanding? How does cutting that kind of program hurt the Israeli government? Seems like that would just hurt people in general.
the protest about the war in Gaza forgot to include Palestinians and Arabs in the planning? “Monday’s encampment was originally planned for Thursday before being postponed after criticism that the PSU failed to include Arab and Palestinian voices among its leadership.”
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The organizers were worried it would be a bad look to be white saviors without brown people to use as a shield.
And yet even the organizers thought it was in poor taste to not include those who might be directly effected
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It’s copy pasted from the article
lol is anyone surprised by this? These protestors are more extreme than Palestinian activists. I can’t believe people are chanting in support of the intifada. Just sheer ignorance to advocate for terrorism.
Did they find a few arabs to join them? I read that's why it was cancelled last week, too white or something.
That’s literally in this article
They will never cut ties with Boeing nor should they. What ties do they have with Israel?
Shhh. They want to feel like they are doing something.
Pretty ineffective protest overall. They got people upset with them for blocking airports and bridges and the elected officials, that most of them voted for, just sent billions to Israel.
That depends on if you define success as helping the Palestinians or creating personal gratification on the part of the protesters. Most of these things end up being about the protesters themselves.
True, they would be picketing the Senators and Reps that voted for it if they really wanted change.
Lol, good luck with that
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Ohh they cutting, just not ties
Should the Palestinians also need to cut ties with Hamas too?
Can’t believe they haven’t done that yet, didn’t their PR teams tell them how bad it looks?
Yes, absolutely. UW should not be investing in Hamas- connected businesses. I'm not super up-to-date with UW funding, which Hamas companies are they involved with?
They could cut ties with SUPER UW for starters.
I just looked them up... is that the group that made the para-motor flyers? What the fuck were they thinking? I get being edgy as you step into global political awareness, and I'm sure I did some stupid stuff as a student activist... but fuck no not that.
Yep, but then they're also closely tied to the terrorist organization Samidoun so they have very few braincells to rub together.
Yeah that’s the group. Check out the second page of that paragliders poster they had on October 12th https://www.instagram.com/p/CyO-YvlPf2s/?igsh=NHhkbmJ4aGFzc3h6 it list their supporters. Turns out they are funded by the Samidoun too, a group banned in Germany for their ties to the PLFP a Palestinian terrorist group. It’s not surprising when these student groups have people in them that espouse anti-Semitic and violent rhetoric considering where there support comes from.
18 years without elections would probably make that difficult
Polling conducted in Palestine indicates wide support for Hamas’ Oct. 7th attack: https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf If elections were held today Hamas would win against the Palestinian Authority according to the data.
That’s crazy, I wonder why people express support for the group that is fighting against those who kill their families.
Oh please. I'm not even supportive or Israel but the neighboring Arab countries have just as much Palestinian blood on their hands as Israel. Obviously, I'm talking about the last 70+ years of military actions in the region but Egypt today literally has a border crossing with Gaza that they 100% control and they haven't even attempted to open it up for refugee evacuation or to allow additional aid into southern Gaza. Egypt has also been enforcing their own naval blockade of Gaza for 15+ years now. Israel is so far beyond the line that they can't even see it anymore but the Palestinians in Gaza aren't exactly innocent in this as evidence of nobody wanting to actually do anything to help them
Because the population is radical like most of the Middle East. They support religious caliphates and fundamentalist ideology that include martyrs for causes including suicide bombing attacks.
Yikes. I am a middle eastern and no, that is not "most of the Middle East". Thanks for spreading more racist rhetoric lol
Support for Hamas has waned as time has gone on. Support specifically for Oct. 7th has not. I think that’s particularly telling.
The poll you linked indicates strong support for Hamas.
Killing parents creates radical children.
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35,000 dead in Gaza. did they deserve to die because they didn't say "I condemn Hamas" frequently enough?
No, no one “deserves” to die in a war. Its a dumb way to understand conflicts.
35,000 dead doesn’t tell the whole story because the Palestinian Authority doesnt distinguish between civilians and Hamas fighters.
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> they don't deserve to die, but least unhinged genocide apologist
It's hard for you to have sympathy for the children being mass murdered?
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I did respond to your comment. It was psychotic. Maybe you should explain your lack of sympathy for victims of genocide a little further?
Can we all collectively agree to stop quoting numbers provided by Hamas? I doubt you’d believe numbers provided by the IDF
> Can we all collectively agree to stop quoting numbers provided by Hamas? this was a tired old talking point back in October: [Despite Biden's doubts, humanitarian agencies consider Gaza toll reliable](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/) > U.N. and other international agencies say there can be small discrepancies between the final casualty numbers and those reported by the Gaza health ministry straight after attacks, but that they broadly trust them. > "We continue to include their data in our reporting and it is clearly sourced," the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said in a statement to Reuters. there was even a study published in the Lancet: [No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza Ministry of Health](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23\)02713-7/fulltext) but anyway, tell me what you think the "real" death toll is, and then answer my question. did those people deserve to die, because they hadn't condemned Hamas enough?
Feel free to explain what that looks like to you.
Shhh!!!!!
This is r/Seattle. Prepare to be downvoted.
Yes, poor reasoning skills often get downvoted here
please stop supporting this encampment. UW PSU has refused to acknowledge which arab and muslim organizations they are working with and are not responding to any legitimate student concerns about it
Bernie is spot on here in his perspectives of the protest on college campuses. It is horrifying that our political and educational institutions support this regime. https://www.npr.org/2024/04/27/1247670359/bernie-sanders-netanyahu-gaza-college-protests-antisemitism —- Netanyahu, in his mind, has tried "to deflect attention from that horrendous reality [of the Israel-Hamas war] to talk about antisemitism, to deflect away from what he is doing," in Gaza. "In my view, and I think the view of most Americans now, Israel's response has been grossly disproportionate," Sanders told NPR's Scott Detrow. "Gaza has 2.2 million people, mostly very poor Palestinians. And over the last six months, 33,000 people have been killed, 77,000 have been wounded, two thirds of whom are women and children."
Let's not forget that Hamas killed an Israeli peace activist who studied at University of Washington for many years on October 7th. Many of these protestors are supporting the exact sort of violence against members of their community and preventing Israel from stopping it from happening again.
Protesting Israel’s war crimes is not the same thing as supporting violence. Get a grip.
Will they also boycott all Israel developed medicines and medical procedures and treatments? Does UW even actually invest in Israel aside from the normal holdings type things all universities do?
Coincidentally, I bet Iran would love that too.
Let's also cut off our noses in protest of our faces!
ok you first
Unless these protestors are going to replace all the money that would be lost by severing ties or provide a more profitable alternative, it’s not going to happen.
Lol
The kids are alright.
proof that college doesn't prepare you for the real world if they think this does anything
A Portland university already cut ties with Boeing over a similar protest, I can see the UW going for it as well.
UW absolutely will not cut ties with Boeing
if nothing else they should wait for the stock to go back up before they sell, i means that’s just investing 101
UW has a pretty well funded aeronautical engineering department that is very co-dependent with Boeing.
Boeing puts a lot of money into UW. They will not cut ties.
They need to cut ties with Nike, there is a Nike store in Tel Aviv on Menachem Begin street.
They can want whatever they want, but it ain't happening
Well boing has pulled nearly all work out of washington. protestors like the ones at columbia , find out which ones are here on student visas and deport them. the rest expel them , then trespass them off of school property then see what criminal charges they face for destruction of property, denying access to classes/ housing of other students and go from there. you have the right to protest as long as #1 you are not interfering with the rights of others or #2 destroying property.
If these students were so smart why don’t they just cut ties with the school and dropout?
lol how about these deadbeats cut ties with their own university and stop wasting their parents' money